12 Relationship Boundaries with Bruce Hammond

In this week’s episode, Matt speaks with licensed clinical social worker Bruce Hammond to explore how boundaries shape our relationships. Bruce explains why boundaries matter, how developing them can bring greater balance both in your relationships and within yourself, and how they contribute to a deeper sense of emotional ease in everyday life. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Summit Emotional Health Podcast. I'm Dr. Matt Bitsko, a licensed clinical psychologist and the founder and CEO of Summit Emotional Health. This series explores what we call our non-negotiables. These are the key concepts, interventions, and approaches that guide how we understand and practice psychotherapy. In each episode, I sit down with one of our experienced clinicians to explore one of their favorite theories or strategies. Our hope is this will give you an opportunity to discover practical tools and insights for yourself and your family. Today I got to sit down with Bruce Hammond, a licensed clinical social worker who has been at Summit Emotional Health for the last seven years. It's at this point in any introduction to Bruce that we have to outline that she's actually a female. Bruce has over 30 years of experience in the world of mental health and works with adolescents and adults as well as families and couples. Bruce has also recently completed expanded training and is a child specialist with a collaborative divorce program of Virginia. Today, Bruce teaches us about boundaries and relationships. She teaches us that learning about boundaries and evolving your boundaries over time can be a lifelong skill that benefits your relationships and overall emotional health. Bruce outlines her own definitions of boundaries and explains how she has come to use them extensively in her clinical practice. Overall, I think you'll learn from Bruce how understanding boundaries can lead to a very fulfilling life with very rich relationships. So without any further delay, please enjoy this episode of A Summit Non-Negotiable. Hi, Bruce. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm eager to hear us talking about boundaries and what that means for you and for your clients. Before we get started, why don't you take a second and just tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Okay, so I'm glad to be here too, Matt. I am a licensed clinical social worker and I've been in practice for over 30 years. I started out at Henrico Mental Health. I did individual and family therapy there. I also did custody and visitation evaluations. I then moved to a private practice where I did the same work, individual family therapy, stopped doing custody and visitation avowals and added couples therapy. And then fortunately, I've been at Summit for seven years, love it here, and do the same kinds of therapy, individual, family, and couples work. I've been a consultant, a psychological consultant at the Stewart School for, I don't know, 15 or 20 years. And then in the last few years, I have become a collaborative divorce coach and child specialist for people who are separating and divorcing and choosing to do it that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, and it's it's been neat having you here. We could tell this story about how um I had you on my list of people to try to reach out to because I kept hearing about you. And I'll embarrass you just to start this off. I I probably should have told you this. I wasn't planning on it. But when I was working at the hospital and I had these referral lists and I would give out names of people, which I didn't know because I was kind of insulated in the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

But you were the one person I had three clients over the 11 years I was there that called me back to thank me that I referred them to you.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

So I'm gonna embarrass you about but that but that doesn't happen, right? Who who does that? Who calls back the referring person and says, Oh my gosh, you're nice. So so yeah, I I knew of you, but I knew of you even before we even met for all that time. But that's that's kind of what you bring here. And I've loved the stuff you've done at Stuart and even the kind of collaborative divorce stuff. It's been really neat for me to see. All right, so we're gonna talk about boundaries today. So why don't you help us out and just kind of set like your definition, your understanding of what boundaries is, especially in the therapeutic setting.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Okay, okay. So I kind of think about boundaries as the invisible property lines that define us. So what is me and what is not me, what's mine and what is not mine, which doesn't mean what is mine and what is yours, because what's yours is not my business. It's just what is mine. So I get this visual in my head of like a white picket fence in a yard, and it has a gate, and that's the property line. Yep. And each of us, I get to decide if it's my yard, who I let in the gate, who I don't let in, let in good things, don't let in bad things. Um, so boundaries create a framework for like the interpersonal expectations that we have of ourselves and we have of others. And we have to know what they are, I think, to be able to apply them in relationships. So that's kind of a thumbnail sketch of my definition.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

So it's kind of, and I think you're gonna go into this, but we we learn these sometimes silently. Like we might not even be aware of it in childhood. We learn by watching around us like, do they have fences? How many gates do they have? How big is the gate? Does it ever close? You know, and and we learn these things, I'm assuming, of like, well, I just have to take it all. I I don't have any, right? But so just let me ask, is this something I'm assuming that that we kind of learn throughout childhood, adolescence, and then even adulthood?

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, because I don't think we are well, it evolves. Sure. I mean, developmentally, I really kind of have a developmental perspective. And we're not taught that in school, so it can be ever-changing, but when somebody gives it a label finally of what it is, and now it's like everyone knows what boundaries are. It used to just be that therapist knew that's right that that word. But yeah, I think that they evolve and over time, and we become more confident in our ability to speak up or to not speak up. You know, we know them better, but they definitely can just come unwittingly and usually do from our experiences growing up, like our relational history kind of sets the stage for them, I think.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And I and I think we're probably going to talk about that a little bit more, but tell me a little bit about how how you came about in your professional life, like to really start to look out for these boundaries, work with clients and know more about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Okay, so my work with boundaries evolved from my work with separated and divorced families. I met a lot of family law attorneys while I was doing custody and visitation avows for Henraiko County, for the Henraiko County courts, and they began to refer clients to me. And, you know, these families, these clients would first come in because they were in the middle of pain and loss, like a major life event from their divorce or the death of their family as they knew it. Yeah. And so they're wanting to process that pain, they're wanting to grieve it, and then eventually move beyond it. So, anyway, over time, as I worked with these families, this common thread began to emerge, and they all sort of said things like, I feel like a failure, I feel like damaged goods, I feel like I've got the scarlet letter on my chest. Yeah, I'm embarrassed, I don't want to tell anyone. And um, and you know, kids will say, Yeah, I'm really embarrassed. I don't, I don't know anyone whose parents are divorced, so I really don't want to tell anyone. And so, really, the common theme of I feel like a failure, I don't think I've ever heard, I don't think I've ever not heard a client say, I feel like a failure in that. So lots of shame and doubt and lots of sadness initially. And then the way boundaries kind of began to just resonate for me was once they've processed the grief and they've moved to a healing place and they naturally kind of shift their focus to living again, to living and putting themselves out there as a single person, as a single parent. Like, who am I now? And again, developmental. I think of that. All this pain, all of this negative experience that had they not gone through, they wouldn't have grown into this more fuller person. And they're and they so they get to a place in therapy where they're ready for that. And uh they're basically working on who am I now? What's my new identity? So it's really a time of reflection, of introspection. Um, I know I don't want to make the same mistakes. So who was I in my marriage? In other words, like what was my part in the difficulty, what role did I play? Yeah. And then, like I said, in my definition, what's mine to own and what's not mine to own. So the therapy just shifts focus to self-awareness, personal values, and boundaries. And that's just my favorite part of the work.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

So, so it is we're we're talking about how it can be developmental. You and I both like looking at things from a developmental perspective, right? But in that example, not to be confusing, I'm trying to think of the experience of what the child's going through.

unknown 9:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

You know, I haven't I I don't know anybody who's been divorced. Right. And and even each of the parents and trying to challenge their identity and what's going on with this major life event. But I'm even hearing, I and I guess it's developmental, but it's like when these critical life events happen, anybody of any of the ages, they they might be closing, they they just might shut it down. Like if if if they had a gate in the white picket fence, especially on issues like this, it's probably closed.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Maybe because they have to do some of that work and everything. And and then no matter what their previous habits were, you might be talking to them about when, if, how, to reopen some of those gates as they're trying to lean into this new identity.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yes. And when it's timely.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

You know, like when it because don't they, you know this, they all also say, and I would imagine I'd say the same thing. I am never getting married again, or I'm never gonna enter into a lot of never's and always. Yes, yeah. And I and I'm saying to myself, well, yeah, because that's where you're at right now, of course. They naturally become ready for the next step. And I agree with you on that. It's knowing, it's knowing when. I mean, that's the art of therapy, just sort of knowing when they're ready for that.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Before we go any further, would you look when it comes to boundaries? This is kind of a side question. Is are there things that you will be listening for, whether they're in a critical life event or not, just to be like, oh, this person seems to have some healthy, consistent boundaries? Or wow, this is a person who, with everything going on, one of the many things is they either don't have boundaries or they're not healthy or they're not consistent. What do you kind of listen for for that?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Well, that's that is excellent. Because I think, I think one thing I naturally do is constantly assess, like constantly listening for these things of whether or not are we gonna get to the next step? Do they want to? Did they come into this major life event, you know, pretty well grounded in who they were to begin with? And so it getting back on the bike isn't that hard. Or does it just really take them to a place of, oh, now I really am gonna have my full identity? Because we know from Eric Erickson that you really need that. Ideally, you would have that before you entered into an intimate relationship because you'd have a full sense of self. Yes. But often you don't when you're young and you have a serious relationship. You don't. And so, yeah, always listening for that and then see if there's an opening and if they want to work on that.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

But that's interesting because, and we don't want to blame it and say, oh, yeah, that you didn't have the best foundation, and that's when you went. But it's like people might realize, you know, looking back, being older, having a little bit more wisdom, they're like, you know, I realize now looking back 15 years ago when I started this relationship, I probably wasn't great at X, Y, or Z. So that that can kind of guide one of the things I need to maybe kind of focus on as I'm trying to move through this kind of quicksand and move to the next place. Maybe I'll think about these boundaries. Maybe I'll think about what this could look like for me now. And that might be easier if it was well founded, or it might be difficult if they were like, I don't even know if I ever really had good boundaries to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah. Yeah. I I really hope to establish enough of a rapport there where they can just be open about that. So that yeah, they get to decide, they get to choose, and that they don't hear, you know, boundaries is assuming responsibility for yourself, which can sound like a negative. Yeah. And like I so quickly say, I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean it in a way of being proactive about yourself and who you are and accessing parts of yourself that maybe you just haven't. Because I believe we're all equipped with all of that. It's all on the inside. You need the right people in your life, or you need it, maybe not a therapist, but you need someone who's interested and naturally good at that to bring those out, bring those qualities out. So, I mean, even talking about it now, I love it. Like there's nothing else I'd rather do in life than this.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

So, but but you need to have someone therapist, and I love that. I was smiling. I'm like, yeah, we all need people who are not our therapists or who are friends or trusted loved ones, right? But they also need to be people who, knowingly or not, they're not gonna abuse an open boundary. It probably takes a little bit of learning how do you protect yourself, how do you take responsibility for yourself? It is probably pretty important that you have a lot of people around you who aren't going to constantly challenge and be trying to climb your fences.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at first taking a look at whether or not, like, do I? Yeah, oh my gosh, I probably have now have lots of people who cross my boundaries or not. Yeah. It's simply introspective, psychodynamic, kind of like let's explore the relational history because this was a relationship. Life is relationships, and you're saying you want you want a better life for yourself in them.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Do you have other examples of of how you've implemented this with um other clients?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah, I do. I feel like it's not it's not always part of the conversation, but it's unusual for me not to incorporate them in my work with like all clients. So, like an example, and I and I keep saying you know this because we do see similar types of clients that maybe somebody is coming in because they're having difficulty with a parent or their parents. Now that they've developed, they have their own family, you know, they are recognizing things, or they've recognized it for a long time and they're finally ready to address some problems between them. Or maybe it's a sibling, or maybe it's a boss, or maybe it's parenting a teenager, you know, for the first time and and wanting to do that well. So I think that boundaries are helpful for any client having trouble in a relationship to gain understanding first of why it's challenging for them. So doing that relational history and that, you know, looking at their past relationships so that they can recognize who they were or or are in them, and then learning how to be, you know, assertive, maybe if they've been passive, or maybe how to not be aggressive if they are aware that they're overly aggressive. So exploring those things, you know, is it judgment, fear of judgment, fear of retaliation, fear of rejection? Are you a people pleaser? Or for children, is it shyness? That's what it was for me. Is it maybe considered back talk or impolite, you know, from where you come? So that relational history and how it's impacting them now. And then the next step, so this could be any client with anything. Yeah, you know, and then the next step is to clarify their values so that their expectations of themselves in relationships, like not my expectations, not society's expectations, but their own. Um, and knowing what they stand for can help lead them to how they want to be. So, you know how clients will come in and they'll say, or even on the paperwork, they'll say, I just feel really stuck in this problem loop in a particular relationship, and I'm having some mood symptoms, I'm having anxiety symptoms, it's affecting all areas of my life. And they say things like, you know, I can, I know I can only control myself, but you know, what do I do? You know, uh, and I don't know how to let it go, and I should just be able to let it go. So, you know, they feel failed in that. And so I just always say, you know, you're right. You can only control yourself. However, controlling yourself does not mean you have to just like white knuckle it and suck it up and internalize it and let your anger and resentment build, because you know, that's the gift that keeps on giving.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

And um so then that kind of begins the work of boundaries, and they'll say they want strategies, they want tools, they want an objective perspective. Yeah. And so, you know, that's like what I love. And I love watching them kind of feel liberated and confident and more relationally competent, and then to go into the world and practice it in real life. And and I love encouraging that. I don't know, that just feels good. Working myself out of a job that way. So, any client, again, like they they're appropriate for all of us, they're life skills.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah. And let me, I I I think you you started to answer the question. When when you were speaking and outlining that, I was thinking to myself, whether it's in my own clinical work or maybe in my personal life, you see this. And it used to be the joke, if someone said you need good boundaries, that was the cue that you've been to therapy. It's it's it's it's it's not the case anymore because it's just out there and it's discussed, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

But I think a lot of times people will say that and they mean they have good meaning behind it, but it's often black and white. They'll be like, you need to have boundaries, you need to say no to them.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Right? But what I heard you say is you'll you'll go through, you'll get to know them, you'll say, let's do an updated values assessment. What are your values? Not your families, not your cultures, not like what are let's do an update. And then based on that, they get to make decisions about the the kind of nuance piece of as far as boundaries. So is that is that kind of how you do it and you help with that?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yes, and I totally agree with that because I mean, sometimes, oftentimes, someone has been telling them what to do and what to say and how to think. And again, like that would be me crossing a line. It's not my job to control them and say you need to do X, Y, and Z. And that doesn't cultivate any sense of competency or critical thinking, you know, taking a look at yourself. So the more they do that, again, a fuller sense of self, uh, more independence, more autonomy, more authenticity. Like, I mean, to me, being able to make your insides match your outsides reduces anxiety like crazy and creates peace. And even if you are nervous as you're practicing this in the world, taken off the training wheels, you know, you can get better and better and better at it because you've got now you've got the skills. Yes. You've got the skills. It takes a lot of practice then.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

You've got the skills and the insights, you're still practicing them, figuring out how to put them together as consistently as possible, right? You don't have to be perfect, but we're trying to be more consistent.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And and I guess it's one of those things where, you know, if if they're trying to do that and they're trying to have these boundaries, you're really trying to wonder what what are the transferable skills? How can they take that and really kind of apply it? Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah, I like that. Transferable skills that they can take in. And I really love that it encompasses, it's not just a like a model that you're selling them. It's not just the skills, it's not just coping, putting a band-aid on it. Yeah, it is taking a look at your insides and then determining your values and taking all of that new knowledge of yourself and then applying it. So it kind of covers all of who we are, and it creates like somewhat emotional health, it creates emotional health. Yeah. And I think I've always had that bent versus pathologizing or only focusing on what we do poorly. One very narrow focus, yeah. One very narrow focus. And and so there's a time and a place for that. That then, though, I always want. I don't know. I just love it when clients come in their own and realize there's way more to them than just that.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah. So well, and it's a little bit analogous to how we often treat anxiety. You know, trying to figure out your own values, trying to implement better, more consistent boundaries is might even be anxiety provoking. It could be a lot of different things. But I'll always say to my clients, just so you know, we're not trying to take your your little anxiety scores on zero to ten down to zero. Like that's not gonna happen. Like there's gonna be some discomfort, but we want we want to bring it down, but we want you to become more comfortable and confident in that process when things are distressing or when you're trying to put different new consistent boundaries with this person, that person, a lot of people in my life. You know, we're just trying to become more comfortable and confident because you're getting the reps, you're out there trying it to re-implement this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I also do you do this probably? You listen for their words. Like we certainly have some that we can give them, yeah, and they're nervous about being not being kind or not being respectful. Or again, like sometimes it's oh my gosh, I'm just so aggressive. I need help with how to not, you know, be that aggressive, but still speak up. Yeah. And so you can give them, we can come up with examples and brainstorm examples, but I am always listening for the language they use. Yeah. You know, because that's more powerful. And it instead of having to memorize what somebody else thinks I should say.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Here's a here's here's a word chart. Can you pick your word? Well, you just gotta listen to them.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I'll usually say something like, Well, here's here's the word I'm gonna say, but but you need to tell me what yours is. Yeah. If if they haven't already said, right. And then they want to be able to be like, oh no, it's this and it's this. And okay. Like that's it. That's what we're up against.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

That's what we're trying to fight against.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

So let's take us to the last part here. So why should the listener, they've heard about it, you've explained what you think it is, you've explained how you came about it, how you implement it in many different realms. But for the listener who's out there and they might want to either re-listen to this or just find something else about boundaries. Like, what are some reasons why they ought to try to take a look at their boundaries?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, it seems obvious to me just from our conversation, because it it encompasses our whole life and our whole way of being. So for me, it is a staple for myself, yeah, and I believe for my clients. They aren't something, like I said, that we are taught in school, but they are a skill that can be learned the more we get to know ourselves. And so I think they're one of the most important life skills, and that they are vital to being happy and kind of at peace with yourself. You know, that internal sense of locus control. And we we just know it when we're there. So humans are social creatures, and social creatures come in all shapes and sizes, and so if we can be comfortable in our own skin with lots of different people and lots of personalities, then the more well we're gonna be. Yeah, the happier and the more well we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

And the thing I love about that, what I heard is it's it's not just a life skill, but we're always gonna need them.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Like every area of our life.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

And until we're six feet under, this is something that we're really gonna benefit from if we really try to look at this, right? Because it's never gonna go away. There's gonna be times when it pops up. You know, I was gonna ask you a question and you could therapize me. I was gonna be like, well, tell me this story about it. Would have been clear that it was my own spiral question. But but I think anybody listening to this, they they have two or three examples that automatically pops up in their head.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Ha! There's a reason of either bad boundaries or really good boundaries, but it they turn into lifelong skills. So, all the more reason to think about doing this.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah, I agree. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

There you go. I agree. Well, Bruce, it was a pleasure doing this. It was, Matt. I hope it wasn't nearly as uh painful as you thought it was gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

No, it was lovely.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

All right, well, we're really excited to have you back, maybe with another topic, but thank you so much for that great discussion on boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Thank you too.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

As always, thank you for tuning in to this week's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode. We appreciate you being part of the Summit Emotional Health community, and we'll see you next time.