Second Nature's $175M Acquisition, L Catterton Backs Remedy at $50M, and the Milly Pepper Founders | Unpackaged Goods

Second Nature Brands just acquired Tillamook Country Smoker — $175M+ in sales, two manufacturing facilities, and fifty years of heritage. Nobody covered it. Nobody tweeted about it. And that's exactly why they're winning.

Plus, we sit down with the co-founders of Milly Pepper, the brand revolutionizing a common spice into a premium experience through direct sourcing, freshness, and storytelling.

This week on Unpackaged Goods:

Since 2022: Voortman ($305M). Sahale ($34M). Brownie Brittle. Now Tillamook Country Smoker. Second Nature Brands is quietly building one of the largest independent snack platforms in America through disciplined M&A — and the CPG media hasn't written a single profile about them.

In this episode, I break down:

→ Second Nature Brands' quiet snack empire — four acquisitions in four years spanning cookies, trail mix, brownie snacks, and now meat snacks with owned manufacturing
→ Why the boring platform builders keep producing the most defensible businesses in CPG
→ Smucker's stock is jumping 12% after beating estimates, three weeks after hiring Goldman Sachs. What happens to the Hostess review now?
→ Time as leverage in M&A — why the Q4 beat changes Smucker's negotiating position entirely
→ Remedy landing L Catterton at $50M expected in year two — March 2024 to a nine-figure trajectory in eighteen months
→ Dr. Muneeb Shah's social media audience as organic customer acquisition — the anti-ODDITY model
→ Stars + Honey raising $24M from VMG after 300% growth — building a 60,000-square-foot manufacturing facility
→ VMG's two protein-forward investments in one month (Brami $33M, Stars + Honey $24M) and what it signals about their category thesis
→ AG1 Pro — creatine-infused greens — and the platform expansion from single product to three consumer profiles under Kat Cole
→ Mammoth Brands publicly stating it wants more acquisitions after the $1B+ Coterie deal
→ Suja Q1 at $107M, up 22.5% with 50% gross margins
→ Smash Kitchen adding pasta sauce at Walmart — approaching $100M across five categories
→ The FDA approving the first new sunscreen ingredient since the 1990s

INTERVIEW: Millie Pepper Co-Founders
→ The journey from kitchen curiosity to premium spice brand
→ Why freshness and origin matter more than most consumers realize
→ Direct sourcing and building real farm relationships
→ Branding strategies that elevate a commodity into a premium experience
→ Consumer education and product storytelling as growth levers
→ Distribution strategy: DTC and retail partnerships
→ The vision for Millie Pepper's future

The thesis this week is layers. Second Nature is adding meat snacks to cookies and trail mix. AG1 adding creatine to greens. Smash Kitchen is adding pasta sauce to its condiment line. Stars + Honey is adding manufacturing to velocity. And Millie Pepper is adding premium storytelling to a commodity spice. Each layer compounds the one before it. The brands adding layers fastest are pulling ahead.

Build your layer. Then add the next one. The compounding never stops.

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#CPG #ConsumerGoods #SecondNatureBrands #Tillamook #Smucker #Hostess #Remedy #LCatterton #StarsAndHoney #VMGPartners #AG1 #AG1Pro #MilliePepper #Spices #DirectSourcing #MammothBrands #SujaLife #SmashKitchen #Target #Sephora #Kroger #UnpackagedGoods #DeeterDigest #Layers #BuildAccordingly

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You're watching Unpackaged Goods. I'm your host, Jonathan Dieter. Welcome back. It's a beautiful sunny day. We have a great interview coming up. So we have the two founders of Millie Pepper. It's kind of fun. They are right up the street in Brooklyn. So we could have done it in person, but then we realized that we're all in Brooklyn. So that's coming up. We'll play that right now for you guys. But some housekeeping items before we dive in. If you haven't yet subscribed to our Substack or followed us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, wherever you get your content and your media, go check us out. Toss us a follow, forward us to a friend. And if you haven't yet, make sure that you follow the podcast. Rate and review is five stars. Forward it to a friend, colleague, a lover, whoever that you think would enjoy it. So that's it for the housekeeping items. And then we'll just continue the conversation as is. So welcome back to Unpackaged Goods. So I have two founders with me today. I have Michael and Roy. You guys want to introduce yourselves? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

I'm uh Michael Laniak and the founder of Millie Pepper. I'm really grateful to be here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

And I'm Roy Chan. I am the other co-founder of Millie Pepper, and likewise very happy to be with you today, Jonathan. Well, thank you, gents.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Well, we were just getting into kind of the fun of AI and how brands are approaching that. And we'll talk a little bit about how you guys are using it, and then I want to get the story. But to kind of just continue with what we were talking about, a lot of brands are starting to look at all the different systems that they have, all the different platforms, and a lot of the data that they have is it speaking to one another. You're spending a lot of time manually inputting supplier data, inventory data, retail outreach. There's a lot of workflows that are fragmented right now. And so instead of trying to give you a one-size-fits-all platform with a bunch of pretty bells and whistles, what we try to do is take a really uh thoughtful workflow approach. And so we look at dissect workflows that you have, where you're spending the most time, think about, you know, ways we can automate with still a human touch. So it's not like we're giving, you know, the keys to the Ferrari away to, you know, some LLM and that it's going to have full access to your business. It's it's really gonna manually, or not manually, but automate a lot of those manual tasks so that you have more time to put back into your business, back into your life, whatever it is you want to, you know, free up and save your time on. So that's really what we're doing on the AI front. So many brands are approaching it differently with how they're I think a lot of brands are looking how to track their cogs across SKUs. A lot of brands are looking how to, you know, know when to order uh the next uh inventory batch. And so right now it's just kind of on vibes and feel, reaching out to retailers when they remember, lining up the the co-man and the freight and the shipping and getting all of those parties and the supplier and getting all of those things moving in the same direction at the same time is incredibly difficult and is a pain point that a lot of founders have had. And I'm sure you guys are starting to explore some of these pain points. So for everyone that's listening that doesn't know who Millie is, would you guys it's uh it's the first cracked pepper company that I've come across. So I'd love to learn more why why cracked pepper and what the industry that you guys are trying to reinvent. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

So Millie Pepper uh is uh a brand that we just launched 30 days ago. So a lot of the issues that you know you just brought up in relation to operations, we're just getting our first taste of. Um but it's a very exciting time. Like I said, we launched 30 days ago.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Zero automation, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Zero automation, all manual.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

So we're gonna have a conversation after this.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, we force right through it. But yeah, you know, we we've been using our pepper our whole lives, and you know, everybody has. It's the most used spice in the world, and I think for us the least explored. Um and that was very much how we came across Millie, which was just a venture into curiosity. You know, personally in my kitchen, and you know, I used to be a lime cook, and I very much brought that home after I transitioned careers and home cook every day. And I have the things in my kitchen that make me happy. Um, you know, I have my olive oil, I have my salt from Newfoundland, I have my Japanese cutting knives, I have my nice butcher block, I have my oils and my vinegars. And it's taken me years to really like curate this. But like for me, it's a it's a ritual that makes me happy. Um, and that's why I love to cook. And when I finally got to pepper, I was like, what is this? What is this spice that I use every single day? And I just haven't questioned. Uh, and so it started with me trying to answer those very simple questions. Where is it? Where does it come from? What is it? Where does it come from? Um, and by going down that rabbit hole, it really opened up an entire world of excitement uh for me when I realized that pepper is a fruit. Uh, it grows on a vine in tropical parts of the world. And when that fruit matures, it is then hand-picked and dried and eventually shipped to us. But I think that story, um, when I started recognizing that it was a fruit, it really led me to this idea of fresh. I'm like any fruit, it must be picked fresh and enjoyed fresh. And so for us and Millie, our goal is to really stay as close to the harvest as we can and deliver fresh pepper from a single origin so that you can enjoy the freshness of harvest versus what we have on our shelves today for the vast majority and and most of the pepper that people have tried, it's much closer to its expiration or the end of its life cycle. And there's really no understanding of when it was harvested or where it came from, which I think is a miss. It's very similar when we think about our olives or our coffee, like our coffee for co sorry, coffee bean for coffee or coca for chocolate. Um, it it is also a fruit and and should be respected the same way. So that's how we got there. Um and it's been an incredible journey along the way. That's how you got there. That's how I got there, yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And Roy, how did you find yourself along the ride?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, totally totally different uh perspective. I I would say, you know, from a more from a consumer's perspective, you know, just just to rewind, I I spent most of my career in consumer retail working for you know premium luxury brands, primarily in the fashion industry for for many, many decades. And in 2020, uh I decided to to make a switch and worked for a semi-durable goods company that sold travel goods called Away. Uh and that's where I that's where I met Michael. He was uh part of my team. We were working together, we worked together for about four years, and you know, besides the professional relationship, we developed, you know, a uh a personal friendship. And, you know, post both of us leaving at different times, and because we live literally 10 minutes away, we would take these, you know, random walks on the park and just talk about life and talk about what we want to do. Me at the time, you know, I was really done with with the corporate world. I wanted to just take on projects that I really believed in, and most importantly, uh worked with and and uh related with people that I got along with and respected. And so, you know, we would randomly have these conversations and and Michael would share these ideas, new business ideas, which I encouraged a lot. And we talked, talked. And one day he was like, I have the best idea, pepper. And I looked at him, you know, with with a real curious face. I'm sure he was he was laughing at at me. I was like, Why pepper? And then he started telling me, you know, pepper is a fruit. I had no idea. Fresh pepper smells and tastes completely differently. I had no idea. All I knew was I use pepper every day. I've I'm uh I cook to sustain my life, nothing much more beyond that. And I follow recipes, and almost all the repres recipes ask for pepper. But I went through the motions. I didn't know why I would need to put pepper because it never made a difference. Not when I was putting it in the dish, certainly not when I was eating it. And so when Michael shared some of the background that he through research got to know about pepper and what real fresh pepper tastes and smells like, I knew you know he was onto something. So that's when I said, let's do this together. Wow, I really I love that.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Some of my like earliest memories as a kid, you're at a restaurant and the waiter asking if, do you want pepper? Right. That and on on everything. And you know, you think about what sits on a table, it's salt and pepper. And I have some really unique salt and pepper shakers somewhere, they're owls. They might be on my my shelf behind me. But uh, you know, for so long you think about two ingredients that haven't really been innovated, and I didn't realize it was a fruit either. And so tell us a little bit about where you're getting the pepper.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yes. So when I when I wanted to try this fresh pepper or from direct from a source, really, recognizing that where it comes from matters, I reached out to farms across India, Vietnam, Peru, Ecuador, and I had a number of conversations and did try multiple types of pepper. But the more I was talking to these farms, I started to recognize that uh pepper was very much like a tertiary crop, or like they would happen to farm, you know, chocolate and uh coffee, and then they just happened to have pepper. And for me, I really wanted to find a family that could teach me and you know, teach me about the cultivation of the fruit and what what matters, why why it matters, you know, the different patterns in the seasons. And I found this fourth generation family farm in Ecuador. Pepper is all they've ever known. It's such a rich history, and the way that we communicated, we always saw my first few emails with them, they're like this long because they're so romantic. And just like the way that we communicate about pepper, I was like, this is it. Um but there were a couple of things there. It wasn't just like the fact that they only focused on pepper, and it wasn't the fact that they had fresh pepper from harvest, but it was also the fact that one of the pieces that really degrades pepper over time. And and so what happens is when pepper is picked at harvest, uh, it's filled with these natural oils. And those natural oils are what carries the aroma, the flavor, the health benefits. It's what makes pepper pepper. And over time, that starts to degrade. And so from us, if our goal is to get product as quickly from harvest to the hands of our customers, we really wanted to cut out long haul transport, which is, you know, it sits on the ocean for you know 45 to 60 days in these containers. And for us, we really wanted to have a direct line to the farm. So we ended up focusing specifically on South America, our neighbors there. And it also happens that our very romantic pepper farmers are there as well. Um, and I had the you know amazing experience of going down there in December, which is where a lot of our all of our pepper content is from, and just seeing it and touching the soil and being there. And man, these guys weren't messing around. Like they had me carrying 150 pound bags of pepper over my shoulder when we were when we were processing it. It was a it was a real experience.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah, you got to get your hands dirty a little bit while you were there. Literally, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah. That's really neat. I think you you always kind of have those aha moments when you're like, this is a fit. And it was a fit on many levels, is you could you could feel, you could sense, you could taste. You talked about earlier, you know, rituals and routine, and you talked about your kitchen, and you know, you said a couple things that I I'm particular about in my kitchen as well, the knives, some of the the spices that I use, the products that I use. And pepper is one that's so special because like you said, and and maybe it was you, Roy, in every recipe that almost every recipe I use or I follow, it asks for a pepper. And you know, so often I just have the regular pepper. You know, I have some nice, you know, cracked black pepper that maybe I'll use with a steak. But for my everyday use, it's I don't think about it a lot. And you know, elevating that pepper experience, you know, I think uh especially after COVID, we saw a shift towards a lot of at-home cooking and a lot of people that were more fo focused on what they're cooking at home, there's really been a shift in towards you know, clean cooking, whole foods, clean ingredients, and that starts with what you're putting on top of your food, oftentimes when you're spicing it. And so what I really like about what you guys have done with Millie is the branding, it really pops, it sticks out. Can you tell us why you decided to go with that direction? What what are you trying to convey with the the branding and the messaging and the packaging?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Roy, do you want me to take this one? No, please. Um it was a hard journey. That is, I think you're right. This is something that's you know very important to both of us. And we we had a a tough road ahead of us, we still do, which is you know, convincing the you know, the average consumer that you know pepper's worth caring about. And for us, when we look at the space and like how we can achieve that in shifting this mindset of pepper in the eyes of the consumer, I think for us, we we really wanted to have a brand that was human and authentic and really reachable because you know, we ourselves are learning as we go. You know, we're not spice experts and we're not, you know, pretending to be something we're not. Like we have great people around us for sure that help guide us. But at the same time, like we want to learn alongside you. And I think for that, and from a brand perspective, we wanted to have a brand that felt approachable. And so, you know, the name Millie, um, you know, sort of came to me one night and always started as kind of like a starting idea. But the more we said it and the more we stuck with it, it just very much stuck and like felt very right. But, you know, the name Millie, it's like when you think about this was after the fact, like Harry's, for example, when they entered the Razor market, you know, they're they're against like a Gillette and this and that. And they had a brand that was very approachable from a name perspective to be able to, you know, feel a connection to their customers. And I think we have that advantage going for us as well. And then from like a pop or um you know, visual perspective, I think you know, we have something very exciting and bold and fresh in our product that we sell. And when we think about the packaging, although it might look you know quite exciting, it's really descriptive of what's inside the product. We have like red is our brand color, yes, but like each tin tells a story of the type of pepper that's in it. So we have black, white, and green. And each one of those has a color profile that is a descriptor for the type of pepper. And then one really represents the flavor profile of that. So green, you have a much brighter green in like a fresh citrusy floral, or in black pepper, we have a nice poppy red, which is more of the bold, the boldness of the black pepper and the spiciness of the black pepper. And so, you know, it really came organically. And I think that for us, like it does pop. I mean, it feels really good. When we're filling the tins, we're like, this is really fun. Like, I think we have we have something nice here as a platform, but I think for us, you know, we want that brand to continue to evolve with our customers, and you know, as we continue to develop as a business, I think it's an excellent starting point. And you know, for us, it's just it's where we are right now, and it it feels authentic and real. And you know, we couldn't be happier with with how everything turned out.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, the process was was pretty painstaking because because as Michael said, you know, I think fresh was was the key feeling we wanted to convey. At the same time, we we want to do this for everyone. It's a very democratic uh brand and a democratic business because you know it this shouldn't be high brow. Everybody should have a different expectation from this one spice. Because if you do, the spice gives you back so much, not only at the end product when you're eating it, but while you're using it, you can smell it, it just makes your the the cooking process that much more enjoyable, you know? Completely.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

When you really have a product that you can taste and see and experience the difference, there's nothing like it. And you've talked a little bit about, you know, both of you seem to be at-home chefs. And so is there a go-to recipe that you guys like to incorporate melee? Are there dishes that maybe really stand out with one of the peppers as opposed to some of the others?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, the one that I learned early on in my discovery is you know, I'm I'm lucky enough to have some really great cooks and chefs around me in my circle. And so I leaned heavily on them, and there was almost a unanimous answer in terms of you know, how to best experience pepper, and that is simply with eggs. And you know, a fried egg, a harboiled egg, soapboiled egg, scrambled egg, it really is the perfect palette to let those flavors and those aromas come out. And it's it's just so that's what you know, even in our our um post-purchase, uh when we're you know talking to our customers, we really try to say, you know, this is the way to start. But you know, to your point, there are some classics, like as we think about like a steak au poiv or a catchy pepe, or just uh, you know, a straight-up steak is excellent too. Um, but that said, I think you hit on a good point, which is we have this really exciting opportunity to kind of go down that road a little more when we think about educating our consumer and ourselves on you know what is the best way to use our white, our green, our black. And uh, you know, we're excited to uh actually have a recipe section of our site that's gonna be coming in the next few weeks, which is gonna start to celebrate some of those. And we've started to partner with some cooks and chefs in our circle to really work on recipes and sort of unexpected use of pepper. So a very I think some exciting stuff to come.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah, Michael, Michael is a great cook, and and not only that, he's always been very refined in you know all of his uh kitchen tools. You know, he has the best of everything. Me, I just cook to survive. So it's we're coming from completely different, you know, uh places. But you know, ever since ever since I started using Millie, I love to to drink chai tea. And I so I I put the peppercorn in in my kettle and I boil it, and it makes a complete difference. One, like the spice is perfect, and then since it's summer, tomatoes on toast. It's something tons of pepper.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

It's uh we haven't talked about this yet, but I am doing a uh a market coming up in uh in the cat skills called Over.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah, no, I remember. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, and uh I've been thinking about what to to serve, and I think it could be a great opportunity to have a lot of. Tomatoes so good.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

I have a fresh tomato plant on my patio. So once once those get going, I'm so excited and I'll have to throw some Milly on it. So nice. That's super cool. I've I've really learned a lot about both of you. Where are you originally from? Where did you guys grow up?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Right? I am originally from Hong Kong. Yep. I I came to the States uh when I was 14 five years ago. I can I I've been I've been in New York since. Wow, cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

And then I'm from oh sorry, I didn't mean to get to you. No, no, no, no. Please go ahead. I grew up in Toronto and I moved down to the US about 12 years ago, New York.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Oh, New York? Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm coming up on 10 years in New York this summer. So bro, you have us just beat by just a couple of years. So well, I'm twice as old as both of you put together.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

So where are you from originally, Joan Jonathan?

SPEAKER_02 19:22

I was born and raised in Pacific Palisades, California. It's on the West Coast.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

I have some family in the Cleveland area. I'm spent some time there, did my high school years there, went to school in Connecticut, and then I've been in New York ever since.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah, so it's it's been a journey. It's uh So Roy, having grown up in Hong Kong, I'm sure there are a lot of dishes that are unique to your childhood that you don't get a lot of. What are some of your favorite spots in the city or in Brooklyn that you like to go to?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

You know, I've I've been in New York, as I mentioned, many, many decades, and not until recently can I say that I can find somewhat decent Chinese food. But now it seems like they're all over the place. I do have a favorite, um, but it's not Chinese. It's it's uh Japanese soba, and it's a little spot uh on uh Delancey Street called Kokoron. I eat there like three times a week. I think I've heard of that. Okay. On Delancey Street. It's really good. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Michael, do you have any favorites in the city? In this in the city or or anywhere, anywhere around the world.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

The one that really gets home, I think, is uh Frankie Sfantino in Brooklyn Cow Gardens. It's and you know, they're really fascinating when we were starting to think about pepper. I have their cookbook and it's so beaten down at this point. Uh and I it's like a Bible for me. And they go so hard with white pepper. It's almost the only the only pepper type that they use, except for finishing black. Yeah. So they really open my eyes a lot too. But I love Frankie's, and then their pizza restaurant, F and F is just excellent as well for slices. So they kind of got it all for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

It's great. I will take my dog over to Carroll Gardens almost every night, and I walk through the neighborhood and I just love it. There's it's just a quiet, peaceful neighborhood, good people, good food. So it's great. No, I mean that's part of I love living in this area. There's a lot of good food. So as you go start to expand and think about your target consumer, are you thinking about restaurants? Are you thinking about retail, D2C? Are you prioritizing one over the other?

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Well, we we wanted to start with D DTC and not for any other reason, but but simply to make sure that our uh engagement and our developing a relationship with the consumer is exactly how we envision it. And because what we're trying to do is not only share what we've learned about fresh pepper and the difference, but it's also a proposition where we're trying to say, you know what, you should expect more from. Pepper because you use it so often. And so we we wanted to have that conversation with the consumer first. And that's our process right now. But ultimately, you know, we also understand the the challenges with a single channel, especially one that's virtual. Ultimately, we want to get the pepper in front of as many people as as we can because we we know once they try it, they will understand it. And so, you know, that's that's our that's our process and our strategy. Ultimately, it would be a multi-channel distribution, but we're very careful and deliberate because you know we really want to curate the right relationship and tell the tell this all tell the story our way.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yeah, and and what I'd add to that, Roy, is that we have early on seen pretty strong interest out of smaller retailers, very curated retailers around the country. And to me, this was somewhat of a shock that out of the gates there would be this level of interest, but it makes sense because I think uh, you know, they're already very familiar with their salts and their oils and their vinegars, and they have like a very curated shop and they, you know, are very knowledgeable about what they have. And I think it was a much easier, not sell, but like they got our proposition right away. And so being able to establish those relationships early on has been really beneficial for us, and it also allows us to get into and in front of our consumer in different places in ways that you know we can't always do at this stage through e-com, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

I think it's interesting that you guys met it away because I think that there are a lot of parallels between what you guys are trying to do and cracking the pepper industry upon intended and the tra travel luxury or not luxury, but the the travel equipment, travel uh suitcases, whatever you want to call it. And I think it's like educating the consumer on how they're currently doing it and how it could be improved, small little luxuries and stuff like travel. What do you guys take away from your time at a way together now? How like well, as you build this pepper brand, are there parallels? There are, I'm sure, so many differences that you don't even think about.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

But I mean, personally, and I think you know, Roy and I had a very good understanding and solid understanding of that business. Um, we were our goal there was to you know internationally. Um and so, you know, really understanding how the business worked, you know, from a top to bottom perspective. And I think it was uh, I'd say there was a lot of operational components that I think we can bring into this business and like how to structure a successful D2C business. So I think there was like a lot of good that we could take from that. And I think you'll actually see quite a bit of inverses when we think about a very large plastic object that has to be warehoused versus a very small pepper tin that needs to be warehoused, or you know, a wide variety of SKUs and optionality versus a very focused view of product. And I think, you know, it kind of was a very powerful experience for me understanding sort of the operational and financial components and considerations of a business, um, as well as you know, they did a tremendous job from a brand marketing perspective, which we're certainly trying to like tug on here, but you know, fundamentally a different product. Um, but I think that there are certainly some some good takeaways.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

And then, you know, I'm sure you spent many trips and many hours at Calusians, but are there any other stores or places that gave you inspiration as you were going down this journey?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

SOS Chefs is great. They're they're a great little market in the city. And then Sahadi's in our neighborhood has an spice selection as well. But I'd say, yeah, you nailed it with Calusians for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah, it's one of my favorite stores. You can get lost in there. I I love going in there for the different spices. And next time I go in there, I'm gonna have to take a closer look at the pepper owl because I'm sure it's gonna open my eyes and be like, wow. So, well, this was really fun. Is there anything else that you guys would like to convey about the brand that we haven't touched on yet or your story that you think would be interesting or important for the consumers to know?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I think the one piece that we haven't really touched on is for us the mill, which, you know, for us when we're going into this business, um, you know, pepper, of course, is our core product and our core offering and what we're built around. And I think the importance, like when we go back to peppers of fruit and the essential oils and the importance of having it fresh from harvest, the the best and and really only way to experience pepper is to have it freshly cracked, freshly cracked, as you mentioned. And one of the shocking early findings that we found is that the almost 70% of the pepper sold in the US is ground. And so what happens there is you're within 15 minutes of cracking pepper, it starts to lose its essential oils. And so for us, like there's a very big importance of cracking it fresh when you're cooking or when you're finishing a dish. And so we did work very hard to build a V1 of a mill to be able to support customers that either don't have their own mill or are looking for a new one. And you know, for us, looking at also what's available out there, most of the mills that are sold today are non-refillable and built with plastic components. And they're intentionally non-refillable because then you know you throw it out, then you have to buy another one, therefore buying the pepper. And for us, it's like if we can arm our customers with uh, you know, a modest mill to start, not only can they experience pepper the way that it's meant to be, but they can refill it with Millie andor any other pepper that they can find at a Calustian's or an SOS or a Sahadi's. And so, you know, we really want to give them the option to have a mill as well and explore pepper the way that it's supposed to be enjoyed without having to break the bank, which I think is something that we're excited about as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

And you guys started with pepper. Do you see this expanding into a spice platform?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

I don't know about a spice platform. I think I was intentional, and this was, you know, maybe just pre-Roy calling it Millie Pepper and not calling it Millie Spice Company, because you know, I I think there's there's something to be said about focus and and really doing the best that you can within a certain category. And I didn't want to kind of fall into the trap of sprawl when you look at like skew count or just focus, really, I think is the key piece. And so I think pepper is definitely going to be our category. And that was the other thing, like looking around, like you have great spice businesses and like a diaspora or a burlap and barrel. But I think our focus is specifically on pepper and we want to be the best in that category. But mind you, there are many different varieties of pepper that exist in the world. Um, when we think about, you know, Sichuan peppercorn, we think about hot pepper flakes, when we think about infusions or compounds or um, you know, many other avenues to travel. So I think we have a really nice little umbrella under pepper that we want to continue to to explore. But I think we have uh a long journey ahead of us with our starting lineup, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Well, the the the thinking, you know, certainly we we we expect to expand our assortments, but the thinking is rather than going broad into other spice categories and beyond, it's really about this uh incredible ingredient and how do we uh increase its application across things that are expected as well as the unexpected, which you know down the road you'll you'll uh get to experience.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

I'm really excited. Uh it sounds like you guys have put a lot of thought into this, a lot of care into this, and really tried to take that initial emotional feeling that you got when you visited the farm and put that in a tin. And so I'm sure I'll be able to hopefully taste that. But it sounds like that's what the feelings you guys have been trying to convey through that. Um, this has been really fun. I look forward to getting together in person here in Brooklyn and getting together for a coffee or a meal and trying the pepper in real life. But uh if there's anything else that you want to say, that would be the last final chance to say it. Um where can people find you, I guess? That would be I guess right now just your website. Any specialty shops?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Uh yeah, we have on our our site, uh, would be great. And then we also are in a couple stores here in the city. Big night is one of our uh first retailers that we worked with in three little scenes, and then on our site we have an ongoing and growing list of about 40 retailers across the country. So please check in there. But uh yeah, we'd love you to come by the website to check out the story first and foremost. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Well, Michael Roy, this has been super fun. I really appreciate the time and I really look forward to then getting in it together in person. Absolutely. Likewise, Jonathan. Thank you very much. Absolutely. Thanks, Jens. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Bye-bye. It's been busy, but I feel like we're starting to enter the summer lull. So deals are not getting announced as frequently, or fundraises aren't getting announced as frequently, but we still we're still seeing a lot. And so this week is gonna be an interesting one. And we'll dive in. As always, this podcast is brought to you by Trophy Wife, the official finishing salt of Deat Seats. Because you are the prize, and so is this salt. Segment one. So we're gonna talk about second nature's brands because they are quietly becoming a platform that no one's really talking about. So this week they announced they bought Tillamook Country Smoker, a jerky, meat stick, all of the above company. So let's go through their acquisition history because I think it'll make a little bit more sense. In 2022, they bought Vortman Cookies and Wafers for $305 million. In 2023, they bought Sahel Snacks, a premium trail mix brand for $34 million. 2024, they bought Brownie Biddle for an undisclosed amount. And this week they announced Tillamook Country Smoker. $175 million plus in sales, two manufacturing facilities, and they were founded in 1975. So a reputable brand. So we have four acquisitions in four years. That's a lot. Each one adds a different snacking category and a different consumer occasion, which we talk a lot about, owning the consumer occasions. So what the portfolio looks like now. They have cookies and wafers through Vortman, they have premium trail mixed through Sahel, brownie snacks through meat snacks through Tillamook, the breakfast afternoon, the on the go, and the protein snacking all under one roof. And with the own manufacturing facilities and the meat sticks, which is a huge strategic advantage as we've seen with other brands making sure they own the supply chain. So why no one's talking about this? No celebrity co-founders, they have no viral TikTok moments, no venture-backed launch party, no podcast interviews with the CEO, no trend pieces about disrupting stacking, just disciplined acquisition after disciplined acquisition. Buy a brand with real distribution and real consumer loyalty, plug it into the platform, and move on to the next one. We're seeing that a lot with the big conglomerates. That's the playbook that they look for. Real velocity, reputable brand, plug it into the distribution network and let it do it. It's work. So the manufacturing angle here. Tillamook comes with two production facilities in Oregon. That's vertical integration in meat snacks. Margin control, quality control, supply chain security. In a category where Chomps is approaching $900 million, every protein snack brand is fighting for Copac is fighting for Copacker capacity. Owning manufacturing is a massive advantage. Advantage. The parallel to other platform builders. You have Church and Dwight, they have Hero Cosmetics, Therabreath, Touchland, Miss Mouse, same same playbook, but in household and personal care. Bridgepoint, they have Obagi, Vivisi, same playbook in dermatological care. Check one has good karma, no cow, alter ego, alter eco, same playbook and plant-based. Second Nature, Vortman, Brownie Biddle, Tillamook, same playbook and snacking. Every one of these platforms has been built through disciplined MA, through none of these needed a viral moment. All of them are building the kind of diversified portfolios that produce billion dollar exits, billion-dollar platforms. For founders, if you're building a snack brand between 50 million and 200 million in st in sales and strong retail, and strong retail distribution, brands as a buyer you should know. They're not looking for the next viral brand. They're looking for the next category to add to the platform. Consistent revenue, real distribution, consumer loyalty, owned manufacturing is a bonus. The boring brands with real Ibada are the ones getting acquired by platform builders. Miss Mouse at 325 million approved it last week. Tillamook at 175 million approves it this week. Tony's snoring. He's in a deep snow deep snooze. Deep snooze. Segment two. So the stock jumped 12% and the dynamic shifting. You can hear the dog. He's dreaming. He's snoring. So three weeks ago, we talked about smokers hiring Goldman Sachs to do a portfolio review. Elligate Investment Management, one of their lead investors, was pushing for it. Sweetbake snacks are collapsing. And so the hostess carve out seems inevitable. But this week the script flipped. So let's go through the numbers they reported. Q4 net sales, $2.3 billion, up six percent. Adjusted EPS, $2.2.77 a share, up 20%. They beat Wall Street estimates, and the stock jumped over 12%. So what changed? Nothing structurally changed. Sweetbake snacks are still declining. Coffee, uncrustables, and pet are still performing. And the hostess problem hasn't gone away. But the process but the perception changed dramatically. When your stock jumps 12% in one day, the narrative shifts from crisis to confidence. So what this means for the portfolio review. Three weeks ago, Smuckers was negotiating from a point of weakness, from a position of perceived was hired, and the market assumed a fire sale was coming. Now Smuckers is negotiating from strength. Beating estimates toward 20% on earnings gives the medi gives the management credibility. And the stock popped 12%, which gives the board a little breathing room. Time is leveraged in MA. Smuckers just bought itself more. Just bought itself more of it. How comes here? Scenario one, smokers use the momentum to sell hostess at a higher price. The strong Q4 proves that the rest of the portfolio is healthy, which makes the hostess carve out look more strategic and less desperate. Scenario two, smoker delays the review. The operational momentum continues, Elliot urgencies loses esteem. Activist investors push the hardest when the stock is declining. Pushing against a stock that just jumped 12% a little harder. Scenario three, smoker shelves the review entirely, smoker shelves the review entirely. If the next quarter delivers similar results, the narrative shifts from Hostess is dragging the portfolio to Smuckers is executing despite Hostess. The irony, Jams is still outselling Uncrustables at Target, the insurgent is still beating the icon, but the rest of Smucker's portfolio is performing well enough that the Jams story doesn't define the company anymore. The Q4B reframed the narrative from Smucker is in trouble to Smucker's core brand assets are strong and Hostess is the outlier. The reframing is worth more than 6% revenue growth. Segment 3. Remedy closed a series A from El Catterden. The brand was founded in March 2024 and expects 50 million in net sales this year. Let me say that again. 2024 to 50 million in 2026. 18 months. So who's behind it? Famous TikTok doctor, Dr. Maneb Shah. He's one of the most followed dermatologists on TikTok and Instagram. El Catterden is leading the deal, the same firm shopping around Thorn for 4 billion. And the one that backed Marsmen recently at 100 million in 18 months? Mars and the ones who backed Marsmen recently, who they recently hit 100 million in 18 months. And they formed Champ with Kevin Durant and Cooper Flag and a bunch of other athletes. Norwest is participating as well in Sonoma brands capital. Three institutional investors co-signing the velocity. So why El Catterden specifically matters the most? El Catterden isn't just writing checks. They're building the infrastructure for consumer brand exits. Thorn at 4 billion, MarsMet at 100 million in 18 months, Champ connecting Athlete to brand investments. When El Catterden invests at a skincare brand at Series A, they see a specific trajectory. Velocity now, scale next, exit to a strategic in 24 to 36 months. Their portfolio is the roadmap. Invest in the brand with the fastest velocity, provide operational support, and position for an acquisition by L'Oreal, Estee Lauder, Henkel, or Shisito. Or Shido. So why the remedy model works? Dr. Shaw's social media audience converts directly to product sales. But that's organic that's organic customer acquisition. No face back, no Facebook ads, no Instagram posts, no Instagram spend, no when Oddity's CPA spiked 83% and the clock and the stock collapsed 30%, Remedy Mod Remedy's model looks even better. Audience is the distribution channel for the first phase. Then Target, Amazon, TikTok, capture the consumer at every other touch point. It's the same model Grunz used. Build the audience, convert DTC, expand to retail. Grunz 1.2 billion dollar exit. The speed. 18 months from founding to 50 million in 2026. For context, Mosh took two years to get 2,000 doors. Purley Elizabeth took 17 years to get 300 million. Remedy is projecting 50 million in 18 months. The dermatologist credibility plus social media audience plus Alc plus Alcatardin backing compressed the timeline dramatically. So what 50 million at Series A means? Most brands raise their Series A at 5 to 10 million. Remedy is raising at 10 times that. Segment 4. Stars Plus Honey raised 24 million from VMG. So I never heard of this brand. I've never tried this brand, so I need to go find it. So they launched in 2023. They grew 300%. They grew 300% in 2025. And they're on pace for 50 million this year. And they're building a 60,000 square foot facility. So why the protein bar category is the most crowded in CPG? Besides maybe beverage. Quest 1 RX Bar, Kind, Cliff Bars, Barbells, Perfect, David, Mosh, NoCow, Go Macro. Think. I could keep going for another minute. Growing 300% in this category means the product is genuinely differentiated. Consumers aren't switching from their current bar to Stars Plus Honey because of marketing. They're switching because the bar is better. The VMG pattern. Two weeks ago, VMG left Brammys $33 million round for protein pasta. This week, they're leading Stars Plus Honey Honey's round for protein bars. Two protein forward food investments in one month. VMG is building an explicit thesis. Protein forward food brands with exceptional velocity. Bare snacks sold to PepsiCo. Sumbum sold to SC Johnson. Perfect snack scaled. When VMG writes checks, exits follow. So the manufacturing decision. Stars Plus Honey is building a 60,000 square foot facility with the $24 million. This follows in the footsteps of Wilde, who recently built a 130,000 square foot facility in Kentucky. Applied Nutrition has a 100,000 square foot facility. Chris Power at 15 million. So the vertical integration trend across protein brands is trending and it's expanding. At 300% growth, you can't depend on co-packers. Copackers serve dozens of brands. Your runs get scheduled around everyone else's priorities. Owning manufacturer manufacturing means you control the timeline, the quality, and the margin. It also signals to acquires that the that the brand has real operational infrastructure, not just a brand co-packer relationship. The flavor forward angle. Most protein bars compete on macros, grams of sugar, and calories. Stars plus honey leads with flavor. Protein and collagen or table stakes? The taste is the same insight that made Chomps work in meat sticks. Flavor first, protein second. Same insight that made David work. Branded an experience first, macro second. A consumer buys stars plus honey because it tastes great, but they buy it again because it also delivers 15 grams of protein and collagen. So the 50 million trajectory. Both backed by Tier 1 VCs, VMG and El Catardon, both building infrastructure, manufacturing and retail distribution, both growing at rates that separate them from the categories. The brands hitting 50 million fastest are the ones with clear differentiation, institutional backing, and vertical integration. Segment 5. AG1 Pro and the platform expansion thesis. So AG1 launched AG1 Pro this week, a creatine-infused version of the Foundational Greens powder. 5 grams of creatine monohydrate plus HM zinc comes one week after they launched Omega 3s and OMCOC 10. Platform architecture under Cat Cole. AG1 Original, the core daily green pearlness consumer. AG1 Omega 3, fish oil for the health conscious consumer. One pro creatine infused greens for the performance owner. Consumer. Three versions of that daily habit for distinct consumer profiles. One brand, three entry points, three reasons to subscribe. So why this mattered strategically? AG1 was a single product company for while one skew one subscription under cat call's new leadership it's transforming into a daily wellness platform each new product layers onto existing habits rather than competing with it the consumer one who takes age the consumer who takes a g1 original every morning can add omega three or switch to pro. You're not cannibalizing your core product you're expanding the toilet share per customer. The creatine angle we've been tracking the creatine industrial complex all year vital protein collagen plus creatine mosh creatine bars jimmy creatine plus collagen KEX RDRD cakes RDD creatine moon brew sleep plus creatine creates national campaign with Kendall Tool now AG1 Pro has added creatine to the greens every brand in America is legally required to add creatine now to at least one product at this point but AG1 doing it is the biggest signal yet this is the most established daily supplement brand in the world saying creatine belongs in the daily routine not just the gym bag. The competitive implications Grunz is scaling at Kroger Whole Foods all under Unilever AG1 is expanding the product line at Walmart different strategies same more Grunz wins through retail distribution and breadth AG1 wins through product portfolio depth both are trying to win the daily wellness habit. The winner is probably whoever does it first. Segment six FDA sunscreen decision in Suja Q1 So stories that deserve attention the FDA approved Betromizerol the FDA approved Bimotrismerol the first new sunscreen ingredient ingredient since the 90s it's been used safely in Europe for decades it provides both UVA and UVB protection low levels of skin low levels of skin absorption and it's now approved for OTC sunscreen in America. So why this is a bigger deal than it sounds every sunscreen brand in America sunbum, vacation kinfield everyday humans everyday humans Dr. Squatch every we cover in suncare a new active ingredient that's been proven safe in Europe for years gives formulators a new tool they've been begging for better with lower skin absorption means cleaner more effective sunscreen. The brands that reformulate first with biometrizonol I'm gonna always pronounce it wrong have a marketing advantage now with the most advanced UV protection available. This simple regul this regulatory change creates an impr an entire product innovation cycle across Suncare. New SBF products reformulated existing products marketing campaigns around the new ingredients for Suncare brands this is like the FDA approving new ingredient that every brand wants to use suja life Q1 107 million up 22 and a half percent newly publicly traded company is delivering their gross margin is sitting around 50% net income of 7.7 million 7.2% margin so the IPO that raised 186 million is proving the market the is proving the public market thesis quarter after quarter. 50% gross margins on functional beverage is excellent. Positive net income at this scale with 22 per 22 and a half percent growth silences the bears succeed in the public markets. After all birds and once upon a time and once upon a farm stumbled suja is showing that the IPO path works when the fundamentals are right. Segment 7 rapid fire let's get it so Bowie raised six million from brand foundry for sparkling aquafrescas Remedy Health raised 18 million for 3D personalized gummy supplements animal capital closed fund three at $30 million. Diamond Brew closed a seven figure seed round Arrow Farms was acquired by Palm Ventures Tilroy sold outwater brewing back to the founder and Fizzon Kristen Cavallari's brand launched in Target. So a couple launches worth watching Tom Brady and Goodnut are now on GoPuff. Barbells is launching a low sugar gummy Svetka has vodka water and clear cans gross. Smash Kitchen has pasta sauce at Walmart that was an interesting one LaVazzanna is bringing espresso K cups to the US Pure Gasly the F1 driver launches minted Boylan is launching a Freedom soda for America's 250th and Snooze launched sleep ice cream in the UK Double distribution quick hits cadutes nationwide at Target Day Out 2000 at Target Vacation is launching at Sephora Throne Coffee at CVS Ell's Kitchen Nationwide Sprouts Cado is at Fairway here in New York and she won a pitch slam. Congrats and Stimmy is online alrighty we just ripped through a lot of news so we'll chop up the interview we'll get that going last couple housekeeping items if you've made it this far thank you so much it means the world to me that you would listen that you like to listen uh if you've gotten something out of this or learned something interesting I would love it if you could forward it to one friend colleague a family member whoever it might be that would be super helpful. Spread the love the deeds love thank you if you've made it this far it means the world to me and I'm so excited to see where this continues to go. We help