MMM Edition: How wrong cadence makes your leads hate you w/ Pawl Good

A half-million-dollar fourplex with zero cash at closing and a check on the way out the door—this is where the journey starts. From that first FHA deal to a steady rhythm of flips and rentals, we lay out the exact playbook: how to generate predictable deal flow with direct mail, win trust with private lenders, and use a push-away sales style that gets sellers talking without feeling pressured.

We unpack the mechanics of direct mail that behaves like a calculator: list selection, cadence, and response-rate math that lets you forecast contracts before you spend. When the calls come in, the advantage is preparation—mirroring, cadence matching, and repeating the last few words to keep sellers opening up. Instead of hard selling, we suggest alternatives—list with an agent, rent it out, sell it yourself—and let the owner convince themselves why a clean, certain sale is worth it. That’s where real motivation surfaces: missed payments, tenant issues, or family friction you can actually solve.

Capital isn’t the roadblock people think it is. We share a one-page private money brief you can send to your network that outlines purchase price, rehab budget, ARV, and secured lender returns. Early on, you’ll invest hours educating people on liens, collateral, and exit plans; later, performance compounds into speed, and the text “I need $325K in 10 days” gets a simple “When are we closing?” On the operations side, we reveal a contractor agreement with built-in bonuses for early completion and daily penalties for delays, missing crew, or unsecured sites. It’s fair, it’s clear, and it’s saved six figures by protecting timelines and last draws.

We close on mindset and mistakes: consistency beats intensity, follow-up can run for years and still pay, and holding more property builds wealth faster than flipping everything. Freedom is the real outcome—choosing your hours, scaling your effort, and letting discipline turn into dollars. If you’re ready to turn deals into a durable business, hit play, subscribe for more, and tell us: what’s the one bottleneck you’re fixing this week?

VCap Real Estate Podcast

Transcript

Meet Paul: Deals, Flips, Portfolio

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to the VCAP Real Estate Podcast, where we talk about building physical empires. Learn from industry experts about all aspects of the business of real estate. You'll learn how to buy, renovate, manage, and sell deals by people who actually do it every day. People who build their fortune doing this. I'm your host, Cole Farrell. Let's talk. I'm gonna let you do your own intro.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

So tell us your story. I'm Paul Good. Live in Whitehall, local to Lehigh Valley for the last like 20 years. Started investing uh somewhere around 2015. Uh went full time somewhere in 2017, I think. Um I do a lot of flips. Uh by a lot, I probably average somewhere between seven to eight a year. Not lighting the world on fire, but it certainly makes my bank account happy. Uh so we do about eight flips a year. It's all direct mail marketing. Um we do uh pick up rentals along the way. So I've done Airbnbs, self-storage, single family, industrial, um some industrial flex. Um let's see here. Um at the peak, I was up to like 64 units, and that was at the beginning of 2024. Um due to a divorce, I had to sell off 75, almost 76% of that portfolio, which kind of hurt. So we're kind of rebuilding right now, which is fun and exciting. Um Yeah, I mean that's that's kind of where we're at now. Now we're just we're just building stuff and analyzing deals and trying to make sure the math maths and you know, still flipping and having fun.

First Fourplex With No Money

SPEAKER_00 1:59

I love it. Alright, there's so much I want to go into. So first though, I know there's a couple people here that are kind of getting started. So how did you start before all this stuff that you did? Where did it begin?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Uh-huh. I got divorced. Uh that's the first time. Sorry, I might add. Sorry. And it's not me. It's not me, fellas. It's not me, it's not my fault, not my wanting. Whatever. I'm a good guy, can't you tell me? Um, I got divorced and I was like, oh, I'm gonna show her what she so uh uh so that's really what was it. Like at that point in time, that was probably 2013-14. I felt like I'd lost everything. Uh when you lose everything, you're only free to do anything you want. Uh so I was like, I've got nothing to lose. So like I remember distinctly thinking like every millionaire I could ever think of owned real estate. Like, that's all I knew. Uh so I'm like, all right, let's figure out what this is about. So started coming to a ton of these, like for two years straight. Stuck in paralysis of analysis, like, I know all the knowledge, but I can't swing at the bat. Um, a good mentor of mine was like, just jump out of the plane. Like, sew the parachute on the way down to the ground. I'm like, I don't know how to sew. She's like, Oh, it's your phone, you'll figure it out, trust me. Um so uh bought a four-unit FHA financing, um, didn't have the three and a half percent down, didn't have the six months of seasoning a bank requires you to have, literally had nothing. And I'm buying a$450,000 property. The realtor at the time I was working with was so impressed with my knowledge and I guess really just my knowledge of how the numbers needed to work. He's like, I'll lend you the 3.5% down, 10% interest, three years. I'm like, sold. Um two weeks later, the bank's like, so you don't have any seasoning money. I'm like, what's that? Well, you need to have you know six months worth of mortgage payments in the bank. I'm like, I'll call you back. I called the realtor, he's like, bro, you don't even have that? I'm like, dude, no. He's like, I'll lend that to you for the next two months, but that's gonna cost you grand. I'm like, sold. Uh so here I am at the closing table. This is like early 2015, maybe. I bought a$450,000 property, zero money out of my pocket. They handed me a stack of keys and a check for like eight grand, which was like the rent probations when you buy a multi-unit. And I was like, dude, I just bought a half a million dollar property. You're giving me money? Oh, it's on, baby. It's on. Uh and that's kind of really where it like it took off. Uh I started direct mail and flips and then, you know, rental properties and wholesale here, a couple there, and then I buy some big industrial building and I turn it into like self-storage, and oh, let's build some Airbnbs. It just it just keeps growing.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

That's awesome. I love that you just figured it out, and I love that you just were like, I don't know, I'll just make it happen. And then you do, you figure out a way to make it happen, and it works out.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I never worry about the money I need to have when I buy a deal. Um, I don't I don't pick out the tires for a car I don't own, right? Um I don't I just don't worry about those problems until they are an actual problem, right? Um if you can find a deal, all those problems go away pretty much on their own, right? I mean, if a deal makes sense, somebody will lend you the money. Um just yeah.

Quitting The Job And Going All In

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I like it. So at what point did you go full time? So that was your first deal. You're like, this thing works, and you start building. What did you do before that? How did that transition go?

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Oh, you love this one. This is good. This is a classic office space kind of scenario. Um 2015 to 2017, I was probably flipping like, I don't know, maybe five a year while I was working, um, making like just insane money. I mean, you could be a moron in this business between 2017 and 2022 and make money. So like I was kind of riding that wave and I was like, this is amazing. So like 15 to 16, I was probably flipping three or four properties full-time, or while I have my my job. And one day my boss came in, and this was this kind of job where like I was literally spending 85% of my time at my office desk, like looking at deals, analyzing deals, and like 15% on actual work. And my boss came in and requested me to do what is effectively, effectively like a TPS report. And I'm like, Andrew, I'm not gonna do the TPS report. He's like, What do you mean you're not gonna do it? I remember this conversation so vividly. So vivid. I'm like, I'm not gonna do it. It's gonna take me six hours, and you're not gonna look at it. And I know you're not gonna look at it, because last month I did it, the last line of the report I put, you're an asshole, and you haven't said anything about it, so it's a waste of my time. So I'm not gonna do it. He's like, You're gonna do it or you're fired. And I was like, you don't have to fire me. I quit. And I literally walked to the car. I remember the walk to the car was amazing. Amazing. The moment my car door shut, I was like, dude, I gotta buy groceries, the mortgage is due next week. What the f have I just done? Dude, I've got like maybe five or six months worth of living in my bank account, dude. What the f so like I panicked for a week, let the panic set in, and then I just got busy. Like, I just got busy. Um printing off mailers, knocking on doors, driving for dollars. Like, let's do this. Like, it's funny. I remember the drive home. I'm like, dude, how am I gonna fill 40 hours of my week? Like, there's like there's not enough for me to do. And by like the sixth week, I was like, dude, I need to work 80 hours a week.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

This is there's not enough time. Um I mean that's kind of how it's talking. That's awesome. So your first year you did good, right? Where you started, you bought your first four unit. I guess that was the first year, and then you started flipping immediately after. No, there was like a two-year gap between the four unit and like Yeah, like a two-year gap. Okay, so once you started flipping, how did that go? Meaning, like, how did you market initially and maybe how's that changed until now? And I don't know, just kind of talk to me about some marketing stuff in terms of the story.

Direct Mail Marketing That Predicts Deals

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, sure. So um I do all direct mail marketing. I've done direct mail marketing since day one. I've done direct mail marketing because the mentor at the time that I latched onto did direct mail marketing out of Burks County. Um and some of you may know or may have heard of her, April Crosley. Um, she's big in Burks County. Um she's big into statistics and data, and I'm a data nerd. Like, I just like if the data says that you do X, then you do X. And she was able to demonstrate that like direct mail has such a predictable response rate, like you can literally foreshadow exactly how many contracts you're gonna get after spending X amount of dollars, and it just it's very true. Um, so I think I spent like four grand, printed off stuff in my my home office, licked stuff, and uh and this guy called me, he's like, Listen, I want to sell my homes. I'm like, homes, excuse me. Uh I ended up buying two of his homes. Um was able to like so I got them under contract. I remember this, I got them under contract, and I called up my mentor. I'm like, now what? She's like, well, now you gotta get them funded. And I'm like, uh, how do I do that? So, like, literally, guys, jumped out of the plane, was like, I don't not gonna worry about the tires yet. Uh so she gave me a strategy to do, I found private money, got them funded. Um, and every time I came up with a problem, I was like, all right, well, now what? I'd go to somebody that knew what to do next, or um, I just figure it out. Um, I would ask questions. Um, hey, how do I find how do I know this contract? This contractor wants 25% down. Is that normal? Oh, okay. All right, that's how I'm a pound cent. All right, cool, thanks. So I don't know, you just figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

That's awesome. One of the couple things I love there. One, again, you just did it. Two, I like that you had a mentor that kind of helped you get started. I think so many of us that start moving and try to go quickly have to have a mentor. I had a mentor and it just like changes everything. Um so I love that you mentioned that. And then um, I'm curious about funding. Again, a lot of people I know that are successful use private funding. Yeah. So if somebody's sitting here and they're like, How do I do that? Or what exactly does that mean, what would you say to them?

Private Money: How To Find And Educate

SPEAKER_02 10:15

That's a great question. I bet you'd be surprised and I'll take a random guess. That in this room right now, there's probably at least three million dollars of funds available just by the people sitting here. And if they don't have it directly, they know exactly how to get to it or get or who to ask, right? So there is money everywhere, right? The problem is there's no sign on you that says, hey, I have 300,000 on the bank. Hey, I'm worth 1.5 million. None of that's available, right? So, um, so what I would do is I would create a little one-page blurb about my project, right? I'm buying it for 50, I'm putting in 10, it's worth 100. Pretty simple. If you pay for it, I'll give you 10% or whatever it is. And I would email that to everybody. I would come to these, I would post that stuff on my forehead, I would talk to everybody that I could think of, right? Um, I put it in Facebook groups, um, I posted it in the local meetup pages, um, anywhere and everywhere I could think of. I mean, the deal that I was putting together was worth at the end of that rainbow 45 grand. How many weeks does it take you to work in your normal job to make 45 grand? Right? So in my head, I was like, I'll work that amount of hours until I get this funded. Like, how hard are you willing to work for 45 grand? I'll work pretty hard for it. Like, I mean, then I would. But like, you know, like, sorry. Um he knows what I mean. Uh so like it was like, all right, so like if I have to work 14 hours a day, I'm gonna work 14 hours a day. I'm gonna find a way to so I did. And I think I by like the second day I had it funded. Uh, private money is somebody who has a retirement account. Um, who it's it's your Aunt Jenny that has$200,000 in a savings account, making 3% interest. Um, it's a guy that has um uh an IRA account um that is making four and a half percent in you know some kind of fund index, and you come along and say, listen, if you let me borrow your money, I'll give you 10%, 12%, whatever the prevailing interest rate is. Um your investment's protected because you're the lien holder, right? You're the bank, um, and I'm gonna be able to do what I'm gonna do, and you're gonna be able to grow your money at 10%, and we'll just keep doing this. Private money is very relationship-based, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

So one of the things real quick that I think it took me a while to understand when I first got into real estate, is I was always like, why would somebody give me this money? Like, how why does it benefit them, right? It sounds so stupid, but of course, because like you said, if they have three or four percent or they're not making much money, they're getting all these benefits, they're getting your 10 or 12%, they're growing their portfolio. Like, there's so many benefits to them growing with you.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

There is. There's a big education that comes with private money, though. So if you're a successful real estate investor, chances are you've cultivated one or two or a handful of private money relationships, and they're very personal relationships, right? What they're doing with you, they're not doing for some random guy, right? A lot of the times that came with education, right? You have never gotten into the real estate business, you don't know anything about it, you know, don't know what mortgages are except for the one on your house. So there's a lot of a lot of hand holding, a lot of education, and a lot of just explaining to them why their money is secured if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, right? So putting the time in on those relationships will make you millions down the road and save you thousands in traditional banking fees and requirements, right? So, you know, back in the day when I did that first deal, there were hours of conversation that had to be had on this one deal. That same relationship today, I send him a text. Hey, I need$325,000 in about 10 days. Um, it's a three-week project, we're probably gonna do about you know 150. I'll send you the address this afternoon. And he's like, Cool, let me know when we're closing. Like, he doesn't need photos, he doesn't need he doesn't even care anymore because you've built that reputation for success. So I mean, I mean, when you become a successful investor, real estate guy, we probably have three or four of those people in our pocket.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

That's awesome. All right, I want to pivot a little bit. One of my favorite things that we always talk about, you're one of the first people that I call all the time, is when it comes to sellers, when it comes to the conversations that you have, I genuinely think your talk tracks are so good. So let me back up before I ask that question. Kind of when it comes to this stuff, a lot of it's about follow-up, right? So before I ask you about kind of what you say and how you approach it, we were having dinner earlier and we were chatting about this, and you were telling me the story that you followed up with with somebody for what was it, three years?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

My longest lead follow-up to contract was three years.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

And you called them every week for three years. Every I called them every ten days. Yeah. Every ten days. And I just say that because it's so important with the follow-up. And so, anyways, how does that go? One, what do the initial conversations look like? And two, if they don't say, yes, I want to sell my house on the first conversation, what goes after?

Sales Psychology: Push-Away Technique

SPEAKER_02 15:13

So I'll answer that question. I want to back up just a minute and explain why I became so good at it or why I think I'm really good at it. In fact, I know I'm really good at it. Um, I remember I did a massive marketing campaign. I put all my eggs in one basket. I'm gonna send out it was like five grand worth of marketing, which to me at the time was a lot of money. I'm like, damn, this is a big risk. I send out all this marketing, I dropped it all at one point in time, like all in the same week. And the phone blew up. I mean, when I say blew up, I mean I must have gotten 23, 24 calls that first day, and it just didn't stop. And I panicked. I didn't know what to say, I wasn't prepared. I I'd only done the research on marketing. I don't know, I don't know what to say to these people. I didn't answer a single phone. Oh no. I literally panicked. And I realized, well, we can't we can't let that happen now. So I called my mentor and I'm like, I totally screwed up. Like, what do I do? Who do I need to listen to? What do I need to learn this next step because this is a bottleneck in my business, and if I don't fix this, I can't move on to the next bottleneck, the next problem, the next what? So they turned me on to uh uh at the time a guy named John Martinez. Uh he used to be big in the real estate sales scripting world. Um he's since gotten out of it. I think uh Jerry Green has taken over uh his sales platform, but I mean I I found this guy, linked up with him, uh, and absorbed everything I could possibly absorb from him, and it just clicked, it made sense. Um so the sales tactic that I use in my world is it's basically a push away technique, right? I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm trying to deter you from everything, right? Um I'm gonna push you away, and and and if I'm left to be your only option, we got a deal. And if not, have a nice day, stop wasting my time, right? So um, I mean it's a lot softer than that, but that's that's basic tune of it. Um yeah, I mean, uh when I go on an appointment, um there's a couple of there's like three things that I do, and I'm very focused and very intentional about it. I do a lot of body mirroring, right? So if then the conversation, they're cross-armed, I'm gonna get cross-armed, and I'm not gonna do it like right away, right? I mean, it's you play into it. If they're leaning, I'm gonna lean. Um I'm constantly repeating the last three things they say, the last three words. It keeps them talking. Um, if they have a funny laugh, it's a bit of showmanship. I gotta be honest, it there's a bit of showmanship in it, right? If they got a funny laugh, I'm gonna adapt that funny laugh. Right? That's not my laugh. But we do business and are friends with people that we know, like, and trust. And the people we know, like, and trust are people that kind of act like us in some degree, right? So that's how I get them to kind of like relax around me. Like, um, I didn't write, wrong, or indifferent, it just works really well for me. I bought a house from the guy that had a tick. He's like, yeah, yeah. So uh in 2004, we uh we used to replace those. So like I'm like, this guy has a tip. Like, I'm gonna come up with something like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Works. I'm gonna hate to say.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

So like during the conversation, I'd be like, So, Jerry, how how how long have you had that problem? Right? He didn't even, I mean, but to him, that was normal conversation, right? Um the other thing that's really important, you know, on that on that on that topic though, and this is probably more important and more subtle than anything, cadence. Right? You ever talk to a New Yorker? That's a different language. You ever talk to somebody from Kentucky? Speaker, I ain't got okay, right? If you if you are from New York and you try to hold a conversation, and a big transactional conversation with somebody from Kentucky, like those conversations aren't gonna blend, right? So you've got to find a way to either speed up your you've gotta find a way to match their cadence, whether it's slow and methodical, or it's fast and and they ain't got time for anything. So you're gonna you're talking about so like that's important. That's huge. Um body mirroring, um, which I'll add in cadence. And the third one is I do a lot of pushing away. That's a great house. Why why haven't you talked to a realtor yet? They're either gonna do one of two things every time you push away from somebody. They're either gonna confirm why they should, or they're gonna confirm why they shouldn't. One of those two things is gonna happen, right? Why won't you go out with me? You're either gonna confirm why you will or why you won't, right? Um, why haven't you why you I don't you haven't talked to a realtor about this yet? Why why? Well, I don't like realtors, I don't want 35 people coming through my house, you know, whatever. Okay, great. Well why don't you just sell it yourself? So I'm pushing you away, right? And you're either gonna you're gonna either go, okay, uh, I like that idea, goodbye, or you're gonna be like, no, I don't want to. Let's talk. Um gosh, I mean, have you thought about renting it out? Like, you got options here. I thought about renting it, I don't want to rent it out. Okay, so you know, I guess that's why I'm here. Yeah, that's it. So I use pushing away. Um I use pushing away, and we'll say the fourth thing that I do, which is is not faked, it's I genuinely care. Like, if you're an investor long enough, you're gonna see that there are some really sad situations out there, and people get into some really tough, tough stuff that just makes you want to cry. And you genuinely feel for these people, like so there's a genuine like care. Like, if I genuinely care about trying to solve this problem, this person's problem, and I put my care and excitement about the money that I can make in this deal on the back burner, and we don't care about that right now. If we just try to solve this person's problem and they genuinely pick up on that, not only will you be a better person, they'll feel better about the transaction, but nine times out of ten, they will drop their pants on the price. Happens all the time. Um Yeah, I don't know if I really answered your question about like how I talk, but like it's a combination of those three things.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Well, so follow-up. So how would you rate the importance of like details on the deal versus like the cadence and how you're speaking and mirroring them? Like, what is it more important to do those things? Oh, way more. Holy cow.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I won't even mention the deal, the house at all until they do. So when I'm in the house, like I'm not talking about like I'm POM, I'm Whitehall, I buy real estate, we you know, do you have any idea which home is none of that?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

So you don't get on the phone and say, Do you want to sell 123 Main Street?

Follow-Up For Years Without Pressure

SPEAKER_02 22:20

No. Well, alright, alright. So let me back. In person in-person appointments are a bit different than like cold calling appointments.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

So if you're referring to cold calling appointments, I mean I might call up and you know, let's say it's um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Give me a scenario. But what I want to lead you into is just that, right? So like I feel like I everybody here gets these calls if you own real estate. Like, hey, this is Joe from XYZ Company. Will you sell your property? And you're like, already like, no, fuck you.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Like, all right, so I'll give you this. So I don't know, maybe three or four weeks ago, I was driving for dollars and I found uh vacant, this was a vacant house. Um knocking the door is vacant. All right, so let's find out what the neighbors think. Um I found out I found the neighbor, her name was Tiffany or Tiff Tiffany or whatever. Tiffany had lots to say about this abandoned house, was happy to spill all the dirt. I'm like, cool, great. How do I get in touch with the owner? Um, so Tiffany gave me the owner's phone number. I called the owner. I want let's say your name was Jen. I called Jen. I'm like, hey Jen, I'm Paul. Uh hey, listen, I was driving by uh Main Street. I I think you have a house on Main Street, but I I I'm pretty sure you do. But do you you have a neighbor named Tiffany? Yeah, I have a neighbor named Tiffany. Okay, so so you do have the house on Main Street. So do you like what's going on? Sorry. I'm interested in your home. I don't know what's going on with it. It looks like nobody lives there, but anyhow, Tiffany had a lot to say about your home, and boy, she's not a fan of your house. But look, I'm I don't know what your story is, but like, gosh, could you tell me what's going on over there? I mean, I might be interested in buying it. Like, what, like, gosh, what's going on? What happened?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

And uh they'll just start talking. You can't not respond to that, which is what I love, is it's so different, it's very unique, and I think just the way you approach that, it's just unique. And so So I've been told that it does two things.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

A, it it sounds genuine, and do and I'll argue that there's always a hint of like I won't say I play dumb, but I certainly play confused at all other times. I love playing confused. Playing confused, you play confused, I'll give you a perfect example. Not only works in real estate, it works with your significant other. Um and it works in it works in all conversations. Like, if they're saying something that you just don't understand, you just feel like I don't I don't understand, I'm confused. And they'll elaborate on what you need to not be confused about, right? And then you can be like, yeah, but like when you see that, like what do you what do you mean? Like with an up-inflecting tone, like, well, what do you mean? They'll be happy to explain to you again what it is they mean. When you do that with a seller all day long. If you do that in combination with repeating the last three words they said, the heater broke? What what do you mean? They'll tell you 34 minutes about why the heater broke. Um your brother doesn't want to sell? What do you why? What I don't I'm confused. Well, he's the da da da da. So like it's there's confusion along with genuine concern about like like genuine curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Like that stuff goes like I just love that you play the game, and I love that you're paying so much attention to again, like the little things that I think most people that are trying to get in aren't paying attention to. And I just think that's such an awesome thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah, they're just ramming it, like, hey, I'm uh I'm Bob, I want to buy your house at Main Street.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Great.

Cold Outreach That Opens Sellers Up

SPEAKER_02 25:46

How many say Bob? Hey, I'm my name is Paul. This is this is gonna sound like a really off the wall question, and yeah, totally okay if you hang up on me, but I was driving. Do you have a house on Berkshire Street? Uh yeah. Okay. All right. So I drive by that house every day, and I'm like, this is none of my business, and you're totally gonna think I'm an asshole. But like, what do you mind if I I might be interested in buying it? But like I what's going on with that place? Can you like are you willing to talk about it at all? Because like, man, I'm curious as hell as what you got going on there. I drive by it every day. And they'll tell you the story on what like is going on with it, or they'll tell you to fuck off, and that's fine too. Um yeah, I mean, I've been following up with a woman for the last three years, right? I I'm working a contract now that got under I put it, she signed the contract in November. I know everything about her financial situation, it's not great. She's definitely extending and pretending her issue, has missed mortgage payments, is trying to do a loan modification, has horrible credit, can't move into the apartment complexes that she wants, has a spouse that's living in the house that she can't stand. They're like at odds, but he's on the deed. It's like a fucking train wreck, right? But she has control over this house, has signed a contract for me to buy it, and then like in November, like two weeks later, went dead silent. Alright. I mean, I get it. You're back to putting your head in the stand. Totally get it. I'm okay with that. I'm gonna call her every 10 days until she does one of two things. Either says, let's do this, or tells me to fuck off. And every 10 days, hey Trish, it's Paul. I know I called you last week. I I'm guessing you're probably not getting my voicemails. That's totally alright. But um, yeah, I just I'm really concerned. Like, I know like your situation's probably not getting better. I'm guessing it's probably getting worse. I that worries me for you, but like what like listen, I'm gonna keep calling because like I'm genuine, I just want to help. I don't think you want help, but I don't maybe you need I don't know. Like, I guess um I'll give you another call next week. But like if you want to talk or chat, like I'm here, um I still want to buy your house and I still want to help you with all the things that you have going on, which gosh must be overwhelming. Holy cow. Anyhow, um talk to you next week. Give me a call by. That's my follow-up call. Like, um, it's sarcastic, it's it's goofy. Um I sound like a fucking moron, right? Um I'm anything but threatening. But it works. It does. Oh well, I mean, maybe not true. We'll see. But most of most of my follow-up is like that. It's just not.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

I love it. All right, I have another question for you. I'm gonna pivot again. But I we had a lot of conversations and I really like the way that you handle contractors, and specifically like on your flips, how you deal with kind of your scope of work, how you deal with them, how you lead them. So can you tell me kind of what that process looks like? Maybe some of the things that you set out to make sure it goes to plan?

Managing Contractors With Performance Clauses

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Again. Um, and I will be transparent and tell you that this idea came from Garrett Rhodes. If you know Garrett Rhodes, he probably gave this information to me like in 2016, and I always held on to it, and I've perfected it ever since. Um so I use contra, I sub out everything, right? There's I don't have an in-house crew, I don't have employees, I sub everything out, and I sub out painting, cabinets, flooring, electrical, plumbing, I sub it all out. For me, I'm really good at project management. It really helps me truncate my timelines so I can get multiple trades in there at the same time and get this job in and out because every day I own a project is money it's costing. But you will also find that um it's very difficult to control a subs because they do what they want when they want, right? So um I learned that that was a bottleneck in my business really quickly. I'd asked around, Garrett told me I'd heard this like in 2014 him talking about it, and I it just always stuck in my head. I used what's called an independent conversation. Contractor's contract with my son. So here's how this goes. Let's say I have a general contractor that's going to do all the like stupid bitch work, right? He's going to do the, I don't know, the finished framing or the finished what he's going to put the knobs on the on the kitchen cabinets, right? He's going to grout the backsplash tile. Like I'll just whatever it is. I'll walk through the scope of work with him through that project and I'll be like, all right, so James, how much is this going to cost? And he'll be like, um, 10 grand. I'm like, all right, well, in my head, I budgeted for 13, so you feel light. I'm really good at budgeting numbers. So like you feel light. Alright, so James, how about I give you 11? You do it for 11. Do it for 11 grand. That's more than you're asking. 11 grand. You good with that? I'm good. Alright, how long is this gonna take you? I mean, I'll be out of here in four weeks. Four weeks. Okay. Four weeks. That sounds good. I don't need you out of here until five weeks, so I'll give you an extra week. How about five weeks? I can do it in five weeks. Perfect. Perfect. All right. How many, James? How many guys are you gonna need to have here every day for this to get done at 11 grand in five weeks? Oh, I'm gonna definitely gonna have to have three guys here every day, Monday through Friday. Ron, can you do that? Oh, for sure, 100%. Are you positive? Yeah. Alright, cool. Cool. So, James, here's what I want to do, man. Um, I'll make a deal with you. For you said three guys, five days a week, five-week project, ten grand or eleven grand, right? Cool. For every day you come in ahead of that fifth week, I'll give you$250 bonus. How's that sound? Bam, right? Right? You're for sure. I gave you I gave you an extra grand and an extra week, huh? Right? You're gonna nail this, right? But for every day you go beyond five weeks, it's gonna cost you$250 off your final bill. Does that sound fair? Oh, yeah, that's totally fair. No problem. They will sign that shit in a heartbeat. I can tell you in the course of my life, I've saved over$100,000 in final payment fees to contractors by doing this. And here's the problem. Here's the great thing. They can't get mad at you. Buddy, you set the timeline. You set the price. You told me how many guys you were gonna have here. So when I show up on Tuesday at 12 and Frederico, Bertho, and Robert aren't here. Guess who's getting nailed for$250, buddy? You are. I think the most I've ever charged, there were 11, this is uh it was a 12-week project. He got whacked 12 times for nobody on site during the day. So that was$2,500. He came in a week and a half beyond schedule. So whatever that is, 10 days, enough. So I saved five grand on that project. It might have been a$60,000 budget. He lost all of his profit. He was pissed. I'm like, dude, like, I didn't cause this. Like, is am I doing something wrong? He's like, nah, it's my fault. I'm like, how fuck I know that. It's called an independent contractor's contract, right? Give him a bonus, right? Make it a crazy bonus. I don't care. Well, I don't care if you would have gotten it done in a week, I would have given him a grand. It's a less of an interest payment I have to make, right? Right? So it's a way to control. Like, listen, if you get this done, I'll pay you. Have at it. Because now I don't have to deal with the stress. I don't have to do with the contractors. I can put the lockbox on the front door and get this marketed and rented or leased or sold or whatever. So, I mean, if you know you're gonna make 30 grand on a project or 30 grand on a refi, or have$30,000 in equity, would you give up a grand if you knew you got that project done super fast and ended the stress? I mean, I would. Like, next, move it on. Right? So that's what I do.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

I love it. Um I love it. So, one, it sounds like you check up on them. Like you said, you're going there and you're saying, hey, there's not enough people on site, or you're just checking up on progress.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

I do. So I would say on every project, I probably pop my head in like twice a week. Um, I try to do it really once a week. I feel like every time I pop in on a project, I spend$1,000 and changes. I can't help it. Like, I don't like that door. Like, can we like can we blow this? Like, what does it take to make this open span? Oh, a TGI? Okay, maybe not. Um, but every time I go to a project, I feel like I spend more money. But I'd say twice a week. Um, and I'll go, I'll um, I'm never there when the guys are supposed to be there. So like if the contractor says, listen, I'm gonna have guys here at 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., great. I really only need you to have them here from like 10 to 2. Okay, cool. So if I show up at like, you know, 3 o'clock and nobody's there, or like 1 o'clock and nobody's there, it's 2.50. I show up at 10 15 and nobody's there, it's 2.50. I don't do it to save money on the contract. I do, I mean, I just pop in whenever I pop in, and like people aren't there, and I'm like, dude. And I'll send them a text. Um, it says something, and there's like three clauses on the contract, like not enough crew on site, um uh beyond contract day penalty, uh, whatever it is, or something like that. Um, and uh the other one is lights on. If they leave lights on or doors unlocked, they get a penalty. Um I don't tolerate that shit. So like if I go there and like lights are on or the doors unlocked, or you know, whatever, or the crew's not there, I text them, hey, um uh project not lock penalty, 250.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

And they're like, ah do they ever not pay? Like, is there any scenario where they're like, yeah, I know I signed that, but like I'm not paying that. Or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Well it's not that they're paying it, right? Like, it comes off your final bill.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, so you're just not paying it.

Site Checks, Penalties, And Timelines

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Like your last draw is your money draw, right? Sorry. Like, send me your invoice. Um, you know there are penalties, right? Like, I mean, and you no, I I I mean I sent you everyone. He's like, yeah, like, alright, like you don't dispute any of them, do you? How can they? Wait, like, I've not only given you what you asked, I gave you then more than what you asked because I knew you were gonna shit the bed. Because you always do. Right? Not that I don't I don't want you to, but you do. Right? Um so no, I just short paid the uh the final invoice, and there's nothing they can say or do.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Not at all. Awesome. I love it. There's so many things I want to go into, but I want to start wrapping up. So I have a couple questions I love to ask every guest. Um and here's my first one. So, what separates top performing investors from the rest of the crowd?

SPEAKER_02 36:33

That's a great question. Um, I'd say it's probably a handful of very small things. Um it's number one, the will and desire to not give up, regardless of however big the obstacle in front of you is. And you will be put, they will they'll put fucking buildings in your way. Like that you're like, I can't live this. You can. It just you might it take you a minute. It's just it's that. That's huge, right? Um deal flows low, all right, go knock on doors. Um your marketing not working, call everybody know and find out what they're doing. Um yeah, it's just it's just pushing through whatever problem you're gonna have. Um that's the big one. Um I'd say the second one is persistency and consistency in your business. Whether that's marketing, um for me it's always marketing, whether it's follow-up. Um I think those are the two things. I mean, for me, that's what it's always been. Love it. Um I'd say the third thing is not get divorced twice, dude. That helps because that'll fucking rack a portfolio. You know, uh maybe one of those.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

But it got you started. Yeah, it got me started. And wiped me out. That's great. All right, so what's a daily habit that contributes to your success?

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Um the shh I have ADD. Um, and honestly, I think it's really played to my benefit in our business because um when it comes to projects, I get really excited about them, and then halfway through the luster starts wearing off, and I'm like, what's next? Um so it keeps me shopping for new um new segments of our market, right? So single families, um uh then multifamilies, then like, hey, let's what's this Airbnb thing about? Hey, then it's industrial flex space, um, then it's been self-storage, um, then it's been some warehousing redevelopment. Um, so and then I start to look at mobile home parks, it's never ending, but like it's always like something new and exciting, and like because when you do this for a while, I mean I mean Nick and I were talking about this, it's just it's just the luster, it's just no longer it's like it's like tying the same pair of shoes over and over again. Like you do it with your eyes shut with music blaring, and there's no excitement about it, right? Um yeah, like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

I like it. Yeah. What's a piece of advice you'd give to yourself if you're starting again? Hold more property, hold more.

Habits, Mindset, And Holding More

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Hold more. Uh in the early days, like you're kind of living like not to project to project, you know, maybe you're you're robbing Peter to Pay Paul. Like, I would have done a better job at figuring out how to keep that property and get money against it. Um, you know, whether it was a you know a HELOC, a line of credit, I would have done that more. Um I I say that because if y'all know Joel Pena, one at one point in time I wholesaled him a property for 15 grand. This is like 2018. That thing might have needed might have needed 15 grand, you might have had 30 grand into it. That that bitch is worth like 160 right now. I'm like, oh so like there's things like that that I would have just held on to a little longer.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I like it. Favorite real estate or business book?

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Uh yeah, for me, like I I gotta say, never split the difference. I love that one. I listened to it. He has Chris Foss. I listen to that concept.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Anybody read that? Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Um I like that the tactical empathy in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Um, last question. What's your favorite part of real estate investing?

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Um the freedom. Um that's probably the number one. Number two is the money. Um yeah, that's the freedom. And I wake up at 10 um most days, honestly. Some days I put a nap in there, some days I don't. Um, some days I go to the gym, some days I don't. Um I'm a late night person. Um so I'll tuck the kids into bed and I'll stay up till two o'clock. Usually I do most of my work from 10 p.m. to like 2 a.m. in the morning. That's where I surf most of the internet, surf most of the MLS. Um Yeah, it's the freedom to do what I want, when I want. It's the money. And it's all contribute, it's all based upon your effort um and your willingness to dig in and push through. You you can make millions of dollars in real estate. You can also lose your ass if you just sit there and watch everybody else work. Um it's the only business, it's just one of the businesses that I know that like the amount of success you have is a direct correlation to the amount of effort you're willing to put into it.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Love it. All right, with that said, Paul, thank you so much for being here. So let's give Paul a round of applause. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Appreciate it.