Reflections On Ordained Ministry
Reflections on Ordained Ministry is an audio series designed to accompany those discerning a call to ordained ministry in the Church of England. Each episode offers honest insight, thoughtful conversation, and encouragement from voices within ministry. Whether you are just beginning to explore or are already on the path of training, these reflections invite you to pause, listen, and discover fresh perspectives on what it means to serve God’s people today.
Reflections On Ordained Ministry
Urban Estates with Al Barrett & Emily Swinerd
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In this episode, Al and Emily reflect together on their experience of ministering in urban estates on the edge of Birmingham and Ipswich respectively. In their honest conversation they share stories of how the church is at the heart of community, seeking to bring a lost confidence back to their parishes.
With Al Barrett & Emily Swinerd
Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of Ridley Hall, the Church of England, or the Diocese of Ely.
Setting The Scene
SPEAKER_00You're listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry. Drawing on the wisdom of clergy from across the country, we explore together the changing landscape of ministry and the huge variety of contexts for it.
Meet Al And Emily
SPEAKER_00Well, welcome to this episode on Ministry in Context and Ministry on Urban Estates. It's great to have you here with us. Thanks so much for coming. Al, welcome back. It's lovely to have you again. Why don't you just introduce yourselves? Al, tell us a bit a bit about yourself. Sure.
SPEAKER_02So my name is Al Barrett. I'm the rector of Hodge Hill Church in East Birmingham and have been since 2010. Hodge Hill is just at the edge of the city. It's between two rivers, the River Cole and the River Tame, and has a beautiful patch of common land in the middle of it. But I guess what we're here today to talk about a bit more is the Furzon Bromford Estate, which is a 1950s, 1960s council estate that makes up about a third of the parish. It's under the concrete pillars of the M6 motorway as it moves out of Spaghetti Junction towards London. And I guess one way of telling the story of the neighbourhood is to say that it's in the top 5% of the most deprived neighbourhoods in the country. But that's absolutely not the only way that we can tell the story of our neighbourhood, and hopefully we'll get onto that a bit later. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Hi, I'm Emily Swinnard. I'm the priest in charge of St. Peter's in an area called Stoke Park on the edge of Ipswich. Like Al, we have areas with what would be called indices of multiple deprivation. But it's also a place that's extremely leafy. It was built in the 1970s, and as it was being built, some wonderful person put protection orders on hundreds of trees. So we have a great number of trees, and we live right next to a park. And this area historically has felt a bit forgotten by the rest of the town. You don't go to it unless you're going to it. You don't go through it. There's not much in community investment. The only community building is our church building, which unfortunately has not been looked after for the last 20 years. And we are trying to put that right now.
SPEAKER_00Okay, thank you so much. So we're here thinking about ministry on uh urban estates. Uh, and I'd love to begin by just asking what you get
What Ministry Looks Like Day To Day
SPEAKER_00up to. You know, what what does ministry look like where you are? What takes your your time and attention?
SPEAKER_03I think um for me each day is completely different. Um we have a different thing going on in the church building, most days of the week where we meet members of the community or we host things for people, or we're having meals with the people who live nearby. Um, but also it's I think probably ministry where I am is somewhere I get interrupted a lot. There's not much time to just stop and plan a sermon for a whole afternoon or a whole day. Um we're often doing grant applications, um, meeting with people, spending time with people, um, and getting to live in community more than anything else.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, I mean, there's lots that resonates for me about that description, Emily. Um I guess one of the differences for me is I spend very little time in my church building. Um, it's on the edge of the estate uh and you know is is a place where stuff
Shifting Power By Being Guests
SPEAKER_02happens. But actually, what I've found over the years uh where I am is that the vast majority of my work from day to day happens in other people's spaces, um, happens as as guest in uh in places that I'm not responsible for, uh, which in many ways is hugely liberating. Um, and also actually, it's one of the things that shifts the power dynamics quite a bit. So I spend quite a lot of time hanging around in community lunches, um, walking the streets and bumping into neighbours. I can definitely relate to that sense of being interrupted. And if I may, David, just a little plug for a book that ICO Root wrote. Uh, in 2020, being interrupted, reimagining the church's mission from the outside in, which is some of the story of our place. Um, but yeah, I also spend quite a lot of time doing grant applications. Uh, one of the things that we've developed over the years is uh some intergenerational long-term community building work locally. Um, and amongst other things, we currently have a staff team of about 10 workers, both youth workers and community workers. Um, and although I'm slowly stepping back from a lot of the leadership and management of that project, um, I'm certainly one of the people that shares in that oversight work. So there's quite a lot of kind of strategic development stuff that that goes with that, as well as um the day-to-day joys of uh of hanging around with neighbours.
Beyond Deprivation: Changing The Narrative
SPEAKER_00Oh, you mentioned uh other ways of of telling the story of your neighbourhood, yeah, other than it being uh an area of deprivation. I wonder if you could just say a little bit more of that. And what are the what are the narratives?
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. So when I arrived in the neighbourhood and was was listening to local people um tell me a bit about where they lived, I was really struck that again and again people were saying things like, actually, this is a rubbish place to live, uh, I've been moved here by the council, don't want to live here, can't wait to to get a flat somewhere else, nothing happens here, um, it's really depressing, and so on. And and that was quite a recurring theme, um, not just from neighbours, but also uh members of my congregation that didn't live in the area would also have quite a negative perception of it locally. Uh, I hosted uh my first PCC meeting in my house on the estate, and some members of my PCC said, you know, is it okay to drive there? Because if we leave our car outside the house, will we have the hubcaps nick nicked by the time we get out? And to be honest, most of that is not true, is not accurate as a reflection of the neighborhood, but it's kind of the dominant narrative. And, you know, another thing, an illustration, kind of driving down uh the road, the main road that my road is off. There's a great big banner that was put up by the police about 20 years ago that says, Lock up your valuables, thieves operate here. And and if you take those kind of things as the descriptor of the neighborhood, you know, it's hugely negative, really depressing. And I think there's a sense in which those people that I spoke to at the beginning of my time here kind of internalized that sense of negativity, that it was about them as well as about the area. And what we've discovered over the years is that in fact it's an area that's full of an abundance of God-given gifts in our neighbours, in the place itself, in the groups and activities that have sprung up. Um and and that abundance uh is something that that sometimes has been overlooked or even actively suppressed. Um, what it is also is an area where a lot of the assets that were in the community have been stripped out. There were buildings that were run by the council at one point that were closed down at some point, particularly through uh through
Grants, Assets, And Unlocking Capacity
SPEAKER_02austerity and kind of lack of uh of investment. And so, you know, there are different ways of telling the story, and certainly what we've worked really hard at over the years is trying to shift the narrative to this sense of actually look at look at the abundance of this place and how can we, how can we release it and celebrate it?
SPEAKER_03I think it's really interesting that you use the word abundance. I was talking to my friend on the train here, and and I said, I think abundance is one of the words I would use when most people look at our church or our parish as a place of lack, and it's somewhere that I've really found huge abundance of grace, of generosity, of kindness, and a real spirit of abundance in so many ways. Um, yes, I apply for a lot of grants, but actually I found a lot of them are very successful because people get what we're doing, and because we're including the people that are in our community in what we're doing, we're not just doing it two people. We're we're having a great time together, and that's something that people want to invest in, isn't it? Absolutely. I've only been here in my parish for two and a half years, so I'd love to visit yourself to see what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00Very well. There's something interesting about that idea of grant applications, perhaps being a key that unlocks assets being used, and you know, the assets of the community that the the grants are what then unlock that, release that to be used. Is that perhaps a way of it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so, but it's also like uh I've found that because people are so generous with their time and their energy and with what they have, we can get way more done with a lot less money than you would ever imagine. It's just incredible. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I I've heard you talk about this phrase asset-based community development. Is
From Assets To Gifts: Fragility And Beauty
SPEAKER_00that right? Yeah. Uh is that does that connect with some of what we're talking about already?
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. I mean, it's a it's a secular term. Uh, it's been around since uh the 1970s, 80s, I think, originated in America. Um, but really what it's saying is that uh communities that are often defined by lack, by need, and are often kind of the subject of professionals wanting to kind of come in and fix things, um, there is another way of looking at those communities, and that's to look for the assets uh in secular languages, to look for the things that this community has. Um and I think where and we when we discovered that language, we felt it resonated with what we were doing instinctively locally. Um, but I think where I'd want to kind of stretch it a bit further is that asset and strength uh makes it sound like a quite an economic transactional thing or also or something that's kind of unambiguously uh strong and uh and robust. And actually, I'd want to say that the language of gift works uh so much better within a Christian context and a theological framework, um, amongst other things, because gifts can be profoundly fragile. And I would say that a lot of the stuff that we have wanted to celebrate um most greatly locally has been stuff that's small and fragile and sometimes fleeting, not necessarily lasted very long, um, but nevertheless profoundly precious. And I think uh, yeah, we've found that one of the roles of the church in the midst of working with neighbours has been sometimes to be the people that shine the spotlight on things and say, This is beautiful, this is really lovely, this is really good. And certainly one of the ways early on in my time that we did that in Hodgshill was we invited people to nominate their neighbours who had been unsung heroes of our community. Uh, and we gave a a bit of a hint that they might show compassion, generosity, trust, friendship, and hope, the kind of things that you were saying earlier, Emily. Um, and and slowly but surely people began to think of neighbours and realize
Naming Unsung Neighbours And Connecting Streets
SPEAKER_02that you know there were loads of people around that were being good neighbours, just quietly getting on with loving each other. And we ended up with 97 nominees from our neighbourhoods. And we we threw a big party with the Lord Mayor and and food and we presented awards to people. But actually, the thing that was most significant about it was that people in the room saw other people in the room that vaguely they they might recognise their face, but had probably never had a conversation with, and heard just a little snippet of each other's stories. And and by the end of the evening, we're kind of buzzing with each other because they were kind of, I never knew you did that, or I didn't know your name, and and and I live just down your street. And and actually it's that work of connecting people together and celebrating and unearthing those gifts that for us has been a really important part of the journey over the years.
SPEAKER_00There's uh this idea of a different script, you know, is a it's a wonderful idea. I'm just thinking of some of the the biblical uh stories that resonate with that kind of rewriting of the script. And uh maybe some come to your mind, but the one that springs to my mind is of of Simon called Peter, you know, as this is your name, Peter, and on this on this rock I will build the church. You are you are this rock, not uh the the one who who doubts, not the one who who just betrays me, you know, and denies me, but you are the rock on this church. And again, there's a there's a rewriting of a script there. I don't know if there are any other stories.
SPEAKER_02And and certainly on link to that, um, one of the things that we found profoundly important has been to help people know each other by name. Um, and and one of the things that we do quite a lot of is uh we've got lots of little green triangles of of land on our estate, and just helping local people host little street parties on those little patches of land has been an amazing way of neighbours who maybe have waved to each other every day for years but have never actually had a conversation, helping them have that conversation and to know each other by name in ways that they can then turn to each other for help when things get tough. So that yeah, that kind of shifting of names is definitely significant for us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I so I was thinking about what things would what biblical story would resonate with my experience of where I've been. Um, and I felt like it's been a little bit like the parable of the sower, but not that I'm the sower, but that I'm seeing where Jesus has liberally scattered seed everywhere. Like
Scripture That Rewrites The Script
SPEAKER_03it's everywhere, and you get to see so many wonderful little shoots. Some of them need to just be nurtured a little bit to just become amazing, beautiful experiences of God and people in the community. Um, one of those is my, I've just in the last six months appointed a children's and families worker and managed to get funding for her. Um and she came to the church, she would have said that she'd been a Christian her whole life, but just didn't have the words for it. And now she is just incredible. Well, she's always been incredible, but by just me saying to her, Wow, I I see you're amazing at this, you're really great at chatting to people, you're really good at welcoming children, particularly children. She has such a gift, um, and making people feel comfortable. She helped me set up the toddler group, and then I started to look for funding. Um and I'm so excited that I've got funding for her for at least three years. Um because she is one of those amazing shoots in the community. And yeah, I think also in the area that we're in, I'm not sure it was any different to other churches in that we often see a shoot emerge and then get strangled by something in the world or through addiction or through um difficulties that come up. And I wonder if it's more obvious where we are because the things that strangle are more obvious. Whereas in more affluent or rural or other areas, it might be easy easier to hide. I don't know. Um,
Shoots, Setbacks, And Visible Struggles
SPEAKER_03but that's one of the things I've been reflecting on, is it is we're getting to see these wonderful shoots, but also we're getting to see where things are are squashed is a little bit more obvious sometimes.
SPEAKER_02That really resonates for me. And I think I think one of the things about more affluent areas or people with a bit more money is not that they don't have struggles in their lives, but that they the money can enable them to build some defenses around themselves to maybe insulate themselves from some of the worst of of the of the waves that buffet us, but also actually often insulate themselves from each other and from support. And I think one of the things that that I've found about about our neighborhood is that you know often people come with those defenses down because actually they know that they need each other. Um, and one of the invitations to me has been to know that I need my neighbours as well, and I'm not just there to to be a provider. Um, and I guess one of the stories that resonates for me with that is is the story of actually back to Peter, um, Jesus washing Peter's feet at the Last Supper, and Peter actually saying, you know, hold on a minute, it should be the other way around. I should be washing your feet. Um, and it's Peter overcoming his resistance to to receiving a gift from Jesus. Um and for me, one of the one of the amazing things about being where I am, and certainly having been there 15 years now, uh, a sense that that I'm loved by the community that I'm part of, not in a kind of weird or the vicar kind of way, but but actually just in a really equal, simple, uncomplicated, if something goes
Mutual Need And Receiving Care
SPEAKER_02wrong in my life, which it often has over the years, actually I know there are people who will who will look after me. Um and I think that's you know, I don't want to say that's uh that's a universal of of estates communities like ours, and and isn't true of other communities, but but certainly I think that sense of we need each other, we need to look out for each other is is something that's been really significant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's something I've really noticed is that what you see is what you get. People don't pretend generally. You you know, they'll tell you what's up, what's wrong, um, and will keep you grounded and tell you when you've gone wrong very quickly, which is important. It's so good to just be told, well, actually, what you did last week was rubbish. You're like, okay, I'll try better, I'll try again next time. Um, thank you for telling me, rather than the other person that you could have told. And I think, yeah, it I I'm someone that I don't naturally put up defenses. I'm quite generally heart on the sleeve, willing to be vulnerable. And I found that actually that means that people are willing to accept me as I am, um, which is just so refreshing.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And actually, I think the other side of that that for us locally is that I think a lot of our neighbours have experienced professionals in ways that have been profoundly unhelpful over the years, you know, people that have kind of been in fix-it mode, you know, you've got a problem, we're here to fix you, or people who've like promised the earth. And then uh, you
Authenticity Over Perfectionism
SPEAKER_02know, funding is often a real issue with this, isn't it? Organizations get funded to work in communities like ours for a year. They come in, they say, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. People get excited about it, and then the funding runs out and they go away. Um, and actually, I think one of the gifts of church and priestly ministry in communities like ours is actually we can be there for the long haul. Yeah, it might be a struggle sometimes. Uh, you know, funding pressures might still not be totally out of the picture, but in some form, the church is saying, we are here, we're not going anywhere, we are alongside you, we are part of this community with you. Um, and that's a profoundly different kind of experience to most other services and agencies that are around.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it's interesting that you said that because that's something I've sort of wrestled with a bit. So I live in the biggest house. I live, I have the biggest garden. I don't have the same experience as everybody else because I get to go on holidays. I if I really wanted to and got fed up
Distinctives Of Priestly Presence
SPEAKER_03with where I was living, I could get another job. And I think in I had to, in my first year of being there, I kept feeling guilty that I had those options and I had a different life just because of my situation. Um but I've just had to go, I've got to not be hung up on that. I've just got to be who I am, where I am, and with the people who are there without any preconceived idea. And I think people have been really receptive to that. I'm not really sure where exactly I'm going. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I think there is something really important about that sense of authenticity and openness and honesty, because actually a lot of my neighbours can smell stuff that stinks a mile off. Um, and actually, you know, being unapologetic about um who we are, but also aware of what our privileges are in it all, aware that we have choices that many of our neighbours don't have. Um and and just, you know, we can sometimes be a bit clumsy with some of that stuff, but that being okay, um, I think, you know, one of the lessons that I've learned over the years is that I can sometimes be a bit of a perfectionist, and actually, perfectionism doesn't really help in the kind of ministry that I find myself in. Embracing messiness and being able to make mistakes and laugh at yourself because other people are probably laughing at you as well, actually is both good for us and is liberating, but also is liberating for those around us. Because actually, if we can mess up and make mistakes, that gives other people permission to, oh, maybe, you know, maybe
Being Interrupted And Led By Encounter
SPEAKER_02I could try doing that role in church, reading or leading the prayers or something. And and if I make a bit of a mess of it, that's okay. Because this is the kind of community that accepts that rather than the kind of community, and I've been in some church communities that were kind of, you know, they were tut and they would go away and talk about, you know, how it wasn't perfect today in the service or whatever. And actually, I think, you know, it's really liberating to get rid of that pretense and that perfectionism and and embrace something that's more fragile but beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think you've both been circling around this, but I I want to ask, what's what what's distinctive about priestly ministry in in this context? So maybe there's an image or a metaphor. How would you describe the uh the what it means to be a priest where you are?
SPEAKER_03So uh I've been thinking it's more about presence and being available has been a lot of part of my priestly ministry, but also even though it's really hard to do, finding time to stop and notice what God is doing in the area. And because if I don't do it, how will anyone else also do it? Like I'm literally paid to stop and notice what God is doing. And if I don't do it, no one else is going to. So um that is a huge part of what I'm what I do, even though I find it really hard to find the time, is to stop and notice and point out what God is doing and also to just be present.
SPEAKER_01That's helpful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know that's really rich. Um, I think I'd echo all of that. Um, one of the themes for me uh that led to to writing being interrupted with with Ruth Harley was was that sense of kind of, you know, we can go into our days with an agenda, but that agenda will quite often be totally diverted by an encounter we have in the street. Um, and for me, um, while I I am really resistant uh
Rethinking Luke 4 And The Good Samaritan
SPEAKER_02to putting myself in the role of Jesus, actually the Jesus I see, particularly in Mark's gospel, who so often is kind of on his way somewhere, but someone stops him in his tracks, often a wimp, often a woman, interestingly, in Mark, which I think is significant in itself, but allows himself to be interrupted and often sometimes changed direction by that encounter. Um, so the woman with the hemorrhage on the road while he's racing towards uh Gyrus's daughter, the Syrophoenician woman who won't take no for an answer until Jesus seemingly changes his mind and uh and and uh and says that her daughter is healed. Um, those kind of encounters uh encapsulate something about those those holy moments that that disrupt us, but actually open us up to something bigger and and more exciting often.
SPEAKER_00That idea that there are so many there are gifts to be discovered, to be, you know, of encounters and people and relationships. And that seems to be a big theme, you know, to move away from that language of assets, but towards towards this language of gift, of of of what is beautiful in communities, in people that and actually part of the the priestly role in your context is to to discover that, to draw that out, to to draw people together to do to bring those gifts to uh to interact with one another, shall we say. Uh that that seems to be one of the major themes that that's come out of our conversation. Um I wonder, just as we as we come towards a close, um, if there's there's anything that you might want to reflect on. I mean, you've only been a couple of years and a bit longer, but but that you you kind of learnt, you know, since being where you are, that that's that's taking your time of reflection and perhaps what it is to be a priest, or just more generally, what you've learned.
SPEAKER_03Um so my in licensing services, in my licensing service, I chose, um, and I don't think I choose it now, um, Luke 4, Jesus saying, I've come to free the oppressed, give sight to the blind, be good news to the poor. Um, because so often that passage comes with an assumption that we know who the oppressed, the poor, and the blind are. Um and I think one of my huge learnings is that actually often I'm the blind one or I'm the poor one in the situation. Um, and it's not that I think I was wrong to choose it, I just think needed to have more acknowledgement of well, pretty much what Jesus does all the way through Luke's gospel is to point out actually those who think you see, you don't. And those who think you're in the place of the rich and the wealthy, you're not. Because it's it is the poor who inherit the kingdom of heaven, and and I don't I'm not putting a specific type of person into that box of the poor. It it's Jesus who does that, it's Jesus who knows who we are, and my understanding of the gospel has been expanded hugely in my time in my two and a half years there.
SPEAKER_02No, that's fascinating. I think in a similar kind of way, I would want to to go towards the story of the Good Samaritan. Um and we so often carelessly read that story as as that actually we're all called to be good Samaritans. And actually the point of the story is that the people listening to it are supposed to identify with the the man who's who's stuck in a ditch half dead and receives the care and the love of the Samaritan who was that you know, the unexpected stranger who is so different, and maybe even kind of hostility culturally between the two of them. And and I think for me the discovery that actually I need my neighbours, um, I need to be in community. Me as the kind of multiply privileged middle class white man, um actually this is not about them needing me, ultimately, this is about me needing them. Uh and and the ways in which I've either out of choice sometimes and intention, uh, or more often just because I've been thrown into those situations where where I've I've needed my neighbours. To support me, to care for me, to love me. Um, that's you know, that's been life-changing. That's been transformative for me.
SPEAKER_00So there's again coming back to that idea of uh scripts being rewritten, right? You know, slightly actually rereading the story from Luke 4, rereading the story of the Good Samaritan in the light of your context. So it's thank you so much uh for coming today and for sharing something of ministry in your context on urban estates. Thank you. Thank you.
Closing And Credits
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry, a collaboration between Ridley Hall and Ely Diocese, hosted by David Newton, produced by Matt Cooper, and funded by the National Church of England.