S2 E2- Hurt people hurt people; breaking the cycle

In this episode, Ali and Laura pick up where they left off, diving deep into the toxicity they see in the world around them, from politics and workplaces to relationships and social media, and why doing your own inner work is the most powerful thing you can do in response.

They get candid about blame in relationships, the patterns we inherit, and what it really means to heal. Ali opens up about her divorce, the "97% to blame" conversation, and the profound shift that came from choosing to look inward rather than outward.

Key Takeaways

• Hurt people hurt people. Understanding the wounds behind someone's behaviour doesn't mean accepting it.
• See the 8-year-old in everyone. A powerful reframe: when you look at difficult people as the child they once were, shaped by experiences and pain, it becomes easier to access empathy and forgiveness.
• Doing the work changes everything. We reflect on how personal growth shifted their perspectives on past relationships.
• Blame keeps you stuck. Accepting responsibility (even when it feels unfair) is the doorway to genuine growth and change.
• Intention matters. When communicating checking your own intention helps you act from a place of love rather than reaction.
• Listening is underrated. Many conflicts escalate because people hear the words but not the wound behind them.
• You are still that child. Connecting with your inner child helps you understand your triggers, patterns, and needs.

Tools and recommendations

People

• Angie — Founder of the COGS community- Find out more about events here.
• Lisa — Spiritual coach. You can see her work here.
• Naomi — Relationship coach.  You can see her work here.

Tools

• The Wellness Toolbox by Ali Swift. Buy here.
• Ho'oponopono Prayer — A Hawaiian forgiveness practice touched on in conversation: "I forgive myself. I love myself. I thank myself." Used as a daily inner child practice by one of the ladies at the COGS event.

If you need support please use the links below;

Mind Charity UK

https://www.mind.org.uk/need-urgent-help/using-this-tool/

Samaritans UK

https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

Other support is available and if you would like to be signposted to other tools please email us at intwominds25@gmail.com and we will do our best to help.

Follow us at @intwomindsuk on social media.

Follow us at @intwomindsuk on social media

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So, Laura, welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

So, I believe this is probably going to be episode two of season two. It is because people are on the edge of their seats, because I said that the conversation could have gone one of two ways, and then we thought, actually, let's pause it there and let's start another episode. So pull a couple of things. Yeah, pull on. Or do you want to go straight with it? No, you pull a card. Shall I go on route A or B?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Let's see.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Oh, I feel like that could be A and that could be B.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

So let's do it this way.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Okay, go on.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

So A people can't see us by the way. Is alive, may you delight in vitality. And B is present, may you sense each shiver of the surf. Either of those words linked to either of those paths. No, hold on. Be alive and be present. Do you know that's how I feel right now? Alive and present. Yeah, I actually said to Lily last night, she did my hair, that's my sister-in-law. She's married to my ex-husband's brother. But she still does my hair because she's nice like that. I'm only joking. Love you, Lily, if you look listening. She gave me a glass of proseco with it last night. It's good service last night. No, but I actually said to her, even though things aren't perfect at all in many ways, I'm happy right now. And I haven't been able to say that for a long time. Yeah, that's nice. I am happy, I can feel it here. That's nice. And I think that's because I've done the work and I actually I know myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

And I actually know that everything is actually working out for me in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, that's nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

And it always has. I think I've forgotten path A. Okay, so we're gonna go path B. So we're gonna go path B. So that those cards probably meant absolutely nothing to path B.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

But I don't know what path A or C was to do with what we were talking about. The Beckhams. I know, but right at the end I was like, oh. Let's go path B. We'll go path B then. Let's go path B because we can always come back to path A. We can. I'm sure it will come to me at some point. Oh, these cryptic messages. Path A, Path B, a live present. Oh, it's telling me to get a bit of balance. I think that's quite relevant. Let's go. So, what I was gonna say when we were talking about the Beckhams was yesterday we were having these conversations at work about just the world at the minute. So it's quite a one of those conversations. Yeah, anyway. I came away from it and then I thought I'm gonna go. I need to get comfy for this. I need to go to the toilet, so I did go to the toilet, and I thought, you know what? This is why I do the work that I do, this is why you do the work that you do to help people come out of this toxic world that we often are in. Because we were talking about Trump and we were talking about councils and some of the toxic behaviours within councils, we were talking about what's the other thing we were talking a little bit about immigration, we were talking about power and ego, and how there's lots of people within power that just are out for what they can get. Oh yeah. Um but I think we're so when we do the stuff that we're doing in our industries, we're trying to awaken people to the just being more to life than fight. I feel like everyone's in a fight mode, everyone's like just fighting each other and within communities, within politics, and there's so much deception. And I just think like this is one of the things that gives me fire in my belly to keep going and to do the things that I'm doing, to do the sound healing, to do the heart healing, to do group programmes, to just allow people those spaces to get away from all of that, yeah. And that's all I was gonna say, really, because I think it was relevant to what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

And is that the end of the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

That would be the shortest one on record. Alice Swift, can I just say that will not be the end of the podcast with you here? So you can carry on now and say what you want to say.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

No, I'm only joking. No, you are absolutely right. But what came to my mind then is I have been accused of being toxic in the work that I do. And look, I'll sit with that and go, is it is it toxic? Is it like you get accused of positive toxicity, but also did that come from somebody that knew you deep, deep down? No. There you go, then but I think just generically, society thinks a lot of this well-being stuff's a load of bullshit and toxic. And I think don't get me wrong, I've seen it, there are people that run businesses not through authenticity, preach something but not do so like preach wellness but then go online and slate somebody.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, it's that's what positive toxic.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

And I and I think what I've learnt myself, even going through the divorce, is I was toxic at times, and even if I looked past some of my social media posts, I was thinking, oh, maybe I was a bit passive-aggressive there. Did I really need to share that? Did I really need to talk about that? But at the time where I was standing, I did feel like if I shared this, it would help somebody, and actually, every single time I doubted myself, I got some sort of weird validation. Someone would message me again, you don't realise how much that post is out there. But then I think, oh, but did it help them or did I just give them the wrong, did I spur them on too much in the wrong way, or what have you? I don't know, I don't know. But there is so much negativity, there's so much toxicity, especially in politics, especially like you say, there's so much in councils and a lot of our system, in a lot of our systems, and even with some of my clients and the roles they do. I do work a lot with teachers, and I've got a lot of friends that are teachers. Wow, there's a lot of bullies in that system when we're trying to tell our children not to be bullies, and teachers are bullies. And by the way, I'm not putting teachers down because a lot of my I know teachers are also amazing people, but you think that even in the police force, there's criminals in the prisoners.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

I think there's a nurturing system in the school system, and what you're saying is that actually stuff goes on within these in it, don't be fooled to think that it's all there's a lot of people suffering.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

But there are light workers, and I call them light workers, we are light workers, there are healers. Healers feels like such a I don't know. I read something about people that call themselves healers, they're like it's a bit egotistical, but when I say I'm a healer, is I a healer for me is someone that facilitates and helps someone healing.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I don't heal them, they you heal yourself, but we give them the tools, healing tools to help them, whether that be Reiki or all the time, you can't be in their ear at every moment and thought that they have in their mind.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

You can't be there to help them, you know, process things they've been through in their life because you want you haven't been part of that. Yeah, but you've given them tools and like the facilitating them, I think, is a great way of saying it.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

For me, the healers, like workers, they've gone through toxic experiences, they've been impacted by systems or by people or what have you, and they come out and they want to help others, and they shine a light on the toxicity and say, let's get rid of that. We can be better people, we can be more compassionate, we can learn our lessons, we can become awakened.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Um instead of rejecting on other people and having an opinion on what others are doing, why don't we just go within ourselves and think maybe I could be the ripple effect then instead? Yeah, maybe I could do the work of myself because that's the only thing you can control. And I think people get so frustrated about the things they can't control, like the politics and all of that. But actually, why don't we try and do stuff with us for ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

I actually said to Lily last night, I we were chatting about stuff because obviously we're still part of the same family, really, even though I'm effectively divorced from it. And I said, I know, and I've mentioned this before, Matt, 97% in the end, I was to blame for the breakdown of that relationship. And I remember feeling at the time that was really harsh, and I was like, No, you said that, or you said that he said it. He said, Remember, he said I was 100% to blame for the breakdown, right? Um, that was in our first counselling sessions, which was a massive red flag, to be honest, to the counsellor, because there were he wasn't being open-minded at the time to the fact that I don't know how you can anyone can ever say. Oh, I took responsibility, yeah. I know, but again, at the time I was like, and then even when we then started working with the coaches, and I said, I think it's really important that you rec like what where our starting point is here. We've had some counselling, and he's still saying I'm 100% to blame. And in there, he goes, Oh no, I've I'll revisit that, it's 97%. Again, he can laugh, but that's that was how he felt, and I this is where I've got to now. I saw it as a it's a red flag, and it is obviously to counsellors and coaches and stuff that someone's going because they're not looking inwardly at all, and I remember thinking I just want him to look inwardly, I've just wanted him to see it. Isn't just me, it isn't just me that needs to change. Anyway, what was I gonna say? Where was I going with this? So I remember being really angry and frustrated, and I did social media posts about this, probably a bit of passive aggression because I'm 90, I'm 97% to blame and that, and then you go through the process, you go through the journey, and actually, for me it became less about the 97%. He really believes that, so I'm gonna go inwardly now and I'm gonna do the work on myself to understand why, because it won't be 97%, but it's gonna be at least 50%, but it's because there's two of us in here, yeah. So even though he's saying it 97% and he wants to believe that, I'm gonna go stop getting angry at him for saying that, and I'm gonna go, okay, let me go and work on myself.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Because I'm not laughing at the fact that he thinks it's 97%, I'm laughing at the fact that to say that you're 97%, and this is just generally to anyone, is saying that you're basically perfect, which we all know we're not, and he and him and others would probably be the first ones to say no, I'm not perfect.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So I don't think he would say he was perfect, but he when it came to the bright zone of our marriage, he was saying you are to blame, you're 97% to blame, 100%, and he was saying there's nothing I've done wrong. So he is saying I'm perfect in this situation, yeah. Any behaviours and trick, yeah, triggers and but in the end, what I did, even though I still call upon this 97%, because actually I think it's as when I'm doing my when I'm doing my talks and things, it's this is where I head with it. So I actually decided to relinquish the anger towards that 97% and try and I wanted him to see it wasn't no, please do the work on yourself as well because I'm here having the coaching still, and then we found out he wasn't actually getting the coaching, and then that was like because he really believed it was me, all of me. So I wanted to go and work out what that was, and I've learnt it, and I know I was probably a bit of a nightmare at times in that marriage, and I have apologised for it at times through the process. So I have I have at times gone to him and said recognise I'm sorry I've done that or I've spoken in that way or what have you, but I also know I'm in a new relationship, although it's not that new, can see ah yeah, there's patterns and things that I do, which is learnt behaviour a lot from my own parents' marriage, or just things I've seen, not just your parents, just in the way that I am. I'm not perfect by any stretch, but I've gone and done the work and I have become a better person. And I actually said this to Lily last night. I think the version that I am now, and I have changed, and the lessons that I've learned had me and Matt gone on this together, and he'd pushed through. And because when we split up, then got back together, and he basically was like, I'm really sorry, I recognise I'm part of the problem, which he obviously then went back on again because we then split up again. But in that period of time, I was angry, I was so angry at him, and I was trying to heal, and I was going for the coaching, but I was really resentful, and I was struggling, and I didn't know if this was ever gonna work, but I didn't actually end the relationship, I didn't give up on it. I was still going for the coaching, and I was learning about myself, and I was resentful. So I probably in those four months where we'd got back together and then he ended it. I probably wasn't a really nice person all of the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

But no, maybe you needed that, maybe you needed to be that 97 for this to have when we say obstacles in the right direction, yeah, it maybe that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

So he was probably there going, I can't see she's getting worse, she's not getting better. But I needed to get worse to see and to go through it, yeah. And I then carried on my journey without him on my healing and understanding myself and becoming aware of why I am the way that I am, what triggers me, what reacts. And anyway, so I said to Lily, I do like to think, I'd like to think, and this might sound weird, and if even if Josh is listening to this, I hope he takes it in the right way because this isn't about me saying anything about my relationship with him, this is purely or that I have got any desire to get back with my ex-husband. But what I was saying was, I think if Matt met me now and the work I've done, we probably would be okay if I was this version of myself. However, however, that would only be the case if he did the work too. But I think he would have only got to the point to start doing the work when he saw me having my breakthroughs that he wasn't prepared to wait for those breakthroughs.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

People can break you down, and so you might have gotten it. I think I broke place. I think you might have gotten place, and then and then because you're not at the same place, that might have pulled you back because there was so much you questioned yourself so much, whereas I could see that you didn't need to because there were some things that you weren't. I obviously some things you reacted to things, that's perfectly normal, but yeah, a lot of the times you were doing the right thing, you were saying the right thing, you were apologizing where you should, you were getting angry as you should, because you that's it's your marriage, yeah. But I think that the people that we're with can massively impact yeah where we're at. But I you saying that and coming back a little bit to what we started talking about is I think if we listened more and talked less, we'd probably get along with people better. If we had more empathy and compassion and we actually listened, properly listened the yeah, not just smiling and nodding and agreeing, just like properly listening and maybe putting ourselves in other people's shoes and thinking it might not actually be what we think.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And I recognise now that our first conflict that happened in the August at the caravan, when he said I was the children wrapping their fingers around me, and I said that he was what's the word undermining me. That was the first trigger, and that's where it started to go from and it got really bad. I then and he then walked out, came back, and I talked about abandonment and everything. He didn't listen to what I was saying. I was saying the wounded inner child in me can't deal with this. This is like a non-negotiable for me, we need to sort this out. But all he heard was the things I was calling him, that he'd abandoned us, that he was undermining me. What he wasn't listening to is I feel undermined, I feel abandoned because of the things that have happened in my life, and I want us to get it. But instead he saw that, he saw you doing that. He saw me, you're this, you're that, you're this, and so then he sends it back to me. But then we get to a point at Christmas, we get back together, we think we can work this out, we start going through the coaching, and then I actually get angry that he in a way that he apologised and accepted that certain things and that he hadn't treated me particularly well in that short period of time, and then I'm like, all I wanted to do was feel listened to, but then what I did is I became angry and resentful, and then while he's trying to work out and understand what's going on and if we can save our marriage, I probably stopped listening to him in that time. So then he's I'm done. And I remember we're going to Mexico and we're with his friends. We'd had a fallout before because I hadn't felt listened to, and I'd said, I don't feel you got my back. And we went on holiday. Now we got back together just again because I say we got back together, I'd taken my ready rings on. We hadn't split up, but I was trying to say, You've done you're not got my back. We went on holiday with his friends, and one of his friends I felt that his friend on the holiday didn't speak to me in a particularly nice way, or didn't not in a nice way, they dismissed me. That friend has probably spoken to me and dismissed me that way because of the and that's no reflection on him. I really love him. I mean, we used to have good banter and good conversations, but for whatever reason I took that dismissal really personally that day because, and it wasn't actually to do with him dismissing me. I wanted my ex to have my back, but actually he didn't have my back on that day, and I so I then went, This is another example where you haven't got my back. Yeah, but what he saw again was me going, and he was like, This is it, but it's like you finding that evidence of oh, you're doing it again, and then people can't win, can they?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Because you're constantly finding evidence.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

So I was looking for this evidence that actually he didn't have my back and he's never gonna have my back, and he was constantly looking for evidence, she's never gonna be happy, I'm never in there, she never values me. Yeah, we're looking for that evidence, and it's sad, but I'm saying too, because had we just been able to get this breakthrough and start to really understand each other, we could probably have worked it through because I think people outgrow each other though, and I think you you go off at different directions, and I think it can be quite triggering for people when you do the work on yourself because you're no longer the person they married.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

No, exactly, exactly, and that can be a bit of a trigger, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

I know it's me that changed, and so really I am probably 97% to blame because I 97% changed. Yeah, but where but closing the loop on that one then, what I was gonna come back to, I said to Lily last night, I think had we done this work together and really pushed through and gone through that real pain, we could be on the other side, and actually it would be forever after then. And I think he would like the version of me that I've become in a relationship, but we'll never get the chance for that. And he's not meant to be, it wasn't meant to be, but it is you when you do the reflection, you do yeah, you think it is a shame, it is a shame.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

It's a shame you think about all the relationships out there that just don't.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, and that's why if anyone's listening to this, and you if both of you are willing to really work on it and get through the pain, you can learn so much about yourself, and that's why even the relationship with Josh, it'd be so easy to walk away at times because just because you're in a new relationship, it's still not perfect, there's still conflict, even more so when you've got wounds from a marriage that you thought was brilliant and then it turns out it wasn't. You're constantly looking for the signs that this relationship can't be what you think it is. You I am more it's interesting. I am I'm more willing to work it out and work through it and get and understand it. Is this that we're not meant to be together, or is this that we're both coming from a place of a wound that we need to heal? I feel like I'm rambling on there. Sorry, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

But I feel like one of the simplest things that more people could do, whether that be what we see on me on social media or what we're seeing going on in politics or whatever, or within relationships that were in, like marriages, friendships, the ones with our parents. Imagine you just went, I wonder why they're angry. I wonder why they're upset about that, because that seems a bit like over the top. Why then? Question it? Why? Why could that be? Maybe it's not even about that, maybe it's not even about you, maybe it's about something that happened in there. Imagine we just questioned why, yeah, and saw that there was more than what that reaction is, more than what that anger is, yeah, and that there's some depth to it. I think men struggle with that a lot. I think men struggle to because by by going into those sorts of conversations with somebody else, they're opening themselves up a little bit, and I think that's a bit of a scary thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

And they've not been taught how to do that. No, you're not taught how to do some of this stuff, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

And I think you know, uh me and you find it easy to talk to about you know about things like I messaged you this morning and was like, I actually was gonna cancel, but we can have those open conversations where maybe you can't with some other people because you're not sure how they'll take offense, like, why were you gonna cancel? Yeah, do you know what I mean? So I just think if we just saw outside the what's obviously in front of us a bit more, then wouldn't we just be in a better place? I don't know what the answers are to all the politics and toxicity in this world, but I just feel like you can only control yourself.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Exactly, exactly that. And the one thing that I do now, and I don't know whether I should or not, I don't know if this is this toxic in itself, who knows? When I'm at work, especially, although I've got to say, you don't get a lot of this where I work, it's that we've got a lovely team, and there's not difficult there, isn't actually any difficult characters that I've come across yet in my immediate team and even in my slightly wider team. But when you come across certain people, and I look at a table of eight-year-olds, so even my team meetings, got a team of eight-year-olds here. When you look at someone as an eight-year-old, it's not looking at them in a looking down at them. Oh no, not a patronising, you're looking at them and having more compassion towards the fact that we've all been children, we've all been through things, we've all got scars. And if a child sat there and said, I've had a really tough week, you'd have so much sympathy and compassion. When a 48-year-old turns around, she'd have a really difficult way. Oh, you'll get through it.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Do you not though? They are still eight. They are still five, they are still we are who we are. We've just our bodies have grown larger and the years have gone on, but we're actually still that person, and which is why I we were who were we talking about with this yesterday?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I was actually talking about this. Was it yesterday the day before? It was in when I was in person, so it must have been on Wednesday because I was at the office on Wednesday. I can't think who is. I think I I know what it was. I think we were talking about this. Angie. I did went to her Cogs event the other night, which shout out to Angie by the way. She's got a brilliant network of beautiful humans that are working on the mindset in her beautiful Cogs community. Anyway, shout out to you, Ange. And that was where we were talking about it. And we were talking about you in a child and One of the beautiful ladies that I met there said that she has conversations daily with her inner child and she plays it's the Honor, I can't think what it's called, the prayer you know, about I forgive myself, I love myself, I thank myself. It's a prayer around that. But we ended up talking about it, sorry I've gone off on a little bit of a thing again. When I was having some spiritual coaching with Lisa, Vickers, she was asking me to really listen to my intuition about where I was heading in my business in the future. But when I went into this meditation that she did, I actually went backwards and went to my seven-year-old self. And then, no, my 70, sorry, my 17-year-old self. And my 17-year-old self was like, What's happened to you? Where's the fight gone? And this was whilst we were going through separation as well. So it was all loads of stuff going on when I was fighting for my business, and then she was like, Okay, so Lisa was like, Come back in, we need to go forward, going forward and not going backwards. So we went back in. She's like, I'm gonna step forward now, and I was like, Oh no, and then it went back to my seven-year-old self, and then my it went back to me as a baby, and then my seven-year-old, seventeen-year-old, and baby all came together and connected, and it made me realise I'm still the baby, I'm still the seven-year-old, I'm still the seventeen-year-old, like I am still that person, yeah, but things have shaped me and changed me, but I am still at the core of those things, and that's what we all are.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

We have to go back to go forward, we have to go back and be more reflective on the things that we've been through to understand why we're going, yeah, and actually, what obstacles do we need to get through to be able to push forward? Yeah, is it that imposter syndrome because somebody's not made us feel good enough to have a business? Or do you know? So we it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And I and I do have compassion now. Like I'll even say it about Matt. Like, we've gone through really tough, we've separated, we obviously at times haven't liked each other, never hated him, never ever. I might have said it at times I f in certain decisions, I've never hated him, but I know a lot about his life, and I do have, even though he won't necessarily say that, and you might read all our text messages and go, really, because I have to stand up for myself still, I can still ask for my needs and my needs to be met, especially when it comes to my children. Yeah, but I have so much compassion because I see the eight-year-old boy, and I see and I know the struggle, and I know the pain, and I know the hurt. I think that's so powerful, and I see everyone in my life as the eight-year-old and the things they've been through, but that doesn't mean hurt hurt people hurt people, and it doesn't mean I should accept the hurt, no, but what it means is forgiveness. This interestingly, I you did my words of the year, you know. I pull out, and I already know my words for each year. My word for January is forgiveness, and that's interesting what's just come up for me in many ways. Like I've got to that place of I'm looking at everyone as eight-year-old children and going, it's why you are the way you are, and I don't need to forgive you. That's arrogant of me in a way to forgive you because of that, or excuse it because of that. That feels arrogant for me to even say that. But I forgive the things that have come have happened because I know you you don't know any different.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I'd say one of the biggest does that make sense, yeah. But I'd say one of the biggest things for you when you do your own healing, like we talked about, what can we do in this world to help or yourself? But one of the biggest things that comes from your own healing, and I always say to people, and I was quite shocked at how powerful this was, is just your compassion for others because you start to think there's just so many layers to this. There's so many layers to a human, there's so many reasons people might behave and act in certain ways, and when you can come to things with more compassion, you come with less anger, yeah, you come with more forgiveness, you come with less judgment, I think, a lot of the time. Interestingly, you talk about chip like when we talk about our inner child. I've been going through my dad's memory box because I wanted to get it all into an album, like a scrapbook that you can put things in rather than it all just been in a box and not looked at. So I started a scrapbook and I started putting things on pages, but I was reading like letters that when I was like nine to my dad, and then I was seeing pictures of that he'd kept of me, and there's one really lovely picture that's like my favourite picture of me. I have to show you in a bit, and I was literally thinking, I think I'm gonna frame that and put it in my office.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

That just made me that one just the way you said my favourite picture of me, yeah, which is amazing and it's lovely. But because I know you and how you say things sometimes, like I just had a picture of you getting blown up away with a boxer on your wall.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

You know, when you see a vision of you. No, do you know what would have been funnier is if I'd got a painting of myself and put it on the wall of me on a horse.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

We could have it behind it. Anyway, sorry, completely interesting. It's very lovely.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

And uh I think I'm gonna frame it and put it in here. And I literally thought about it this week or at the weekend when I was doing this album, this scrapbook. But it broke my heart reading these letters because it brought me back to how I felt when I was that age, because it was like I'd fallen out with my dad, and there was bits in there saying, like, why won't you come back? But then there was other bits of me saying, I don't understand it and I don't feel happy about it, but if it makes you happy, then I'll accept it. And I just thought but you were taking that possibility on as a nine-year-old. It's it's a deep, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

I think it's it's really deep, and probably another podcast, but yeah, I know I the thing I'm struggling with. I know I'm projecting probably a little bit onto Eloise at the moment because she's the age I was when my mum and dad split up the first time, and therefore, anything I'm not and I'm listening, I'm reaching out to Matt saying, I'm worried about her wellbeing. Can we watch this? Can we watch that? Please don't do this, please don't do that. And I am probably overraging it a little bit, but it's purely coming from a place of love, your eight-year-old. And my eight-year-old self saying, I want her to feel oh my god, yeah, it's got murder, that's what it is. I can't say it. What's nice though is that you can I want her to feel seen and heard, yeah. And I want her to know her dad, her mum, her teachers, her friends. They they get it, even if they don't understand it. Because I think she there's a little part of her, but she's seven and eight, and she's going through that hormone or she's nine actually, and she's seven or eight, she's an eight, maybe she's seven or eight. She's seven, two, nine. Which one is she? Six, seven. But she's sorry, that this is I really didn't expect that today at all. I just want her to know she's seen and she's heard, and I see things, I hear things, and I can I go, Oh, I remember feeling like that, yeah. And I want her to know she's safe, but and so when I reach out to Matt and say, Can we just think about her well-being or anything? I think he takes it personally. Like, I'm saying he's not seeing those things. But this is comes back to when I say things to him, going back to what we said earlier. You said he sees me doing this, but he doesn't see me going, that's about to listen to me. But that's about him. So even now, the problem in our marriage is still playing out when I'm worried about my children's well-being, and because of the work I do, oh, here she goes. It feels so I feel so dismissed. Yeah, but the seven and eight-year-old, I was dismissed. Yeah, not intentionally, and by the way, that is not me slagging anyone off, but going back 40 years, which it friggin' nearly is, when parents separated, the narrative was, oh, look after your mum and dad. That you're not the narrative. That was the people wouldn't be like, they feel sorry for the kids, but there wasn't you wouldn't go into school and get any kind of support, which we've actually been able to put in place and I've asked for ours.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

I don't know, I just interesting when we talk about pit control and ripple effects. You're what you're trying to do is control other relationships with her, and you can't. I can't, you can only control your own, exactly, and that's all you need to do. That is all you need to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Well, I know I know that I do know it, but then when certain things happen, I'm like, Yeah, please. And but the thing is though, the one thing I do now know is I've got every right to say to anybody, can you bear this in mind or can you consider I never say no? I never say to Matt, don't do that. The slice come up recently about him wanting to take her to a concert in Birmingham City Centre on a school night, and she'll be out till really late. And I don't think it's necessarily the right decision that he's making. I wouldn't say to him, You can't do that. All I can say is this is how I feel and I know he has discussed that with other people and ridiculed me. She's been so ridiculous, she's using well-being. But it I am 100% coming from a place of love, it's got nothing to do with him and controlling him, it's actually my well-being of my child, and now I know as long as I'm not telling him do this, all I can do is give my opinion, I've got every right to do that. Even if that opinion, going back to the last episode, is coming from a wound that I've got myself, that's still okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah, because your intention is of good, is good, exactly, is of and it is of your child and it's not.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

I never can forget Naomi relationship coaching, it's all about intention. Yeah, if I'm messaging him to piss him off and to play games, or ignoring him just because I know it's going to push buttons, piss him off, then I'm not coming from a good place. If I'm coming from a good place, you go ahead and do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, that is true.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

I didn't just you then. I'm apologising for crying, are you? Yeah, but I've you're there saying a beautiful story about writing letters and reading letters that you wrote at nine years old, and it just leaks.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

No, what you're doing is just showing that it's still an emotional time. So you're actually validating my point. Thank you so much. And it looks like we planned this.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

You're a really good actress.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Well then Ali, right on Q. I said to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

That's script work. I know. Where's the auto cue?

SPEAKER_02 32:03

I just think it's I hope that this just makes people think because you don't actually know what's gone in on in people's lives, they could choose to tell you or not, but but you don't know, and also even if you do know, you don't know how that's impacted them personally because something could happen to me, something could happen to you. It's exactly the same situation, but because of something from before, that's made it that's triggered something else in me and made me impacted me more than you. You just can't ever say how something's made them feel like me and my sister had the same experience as a child, but we didn't.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

We didn't, and we've said this before. We've said this before, like your parents brought you up differently. Yeah, you're bringing up the boys up differently. I'm bringing my two up to we're not the same parent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

No, you're not the same parent to me as a child, and I can validate that because of Louis and the kids. Like, how could I be the same parent in nine years? Yeah, it's not possible.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

And interesting, again, this came up last night in my chats. I was having another made and even Eloise now, she's getting so much more than Thomas because she's very I want this in life, I want that in life. She's very not forceful. Well, she's quite forceful, she's dead assassin, but she knows what she wants now, she's gonna go and get it. Yeah, she gets it. She's she and there is an element at the moment I've got I'm really aware that it could turn into her into a little bit of a blanket ticks over the edge of being really spoilt. Tom asks for nothing, he's he likes his football kits, he's got his PlayStation, he's he is spoilt, but in a and all our kids are spoilt, let's face it. Um they're very privileged kids. Privileged is the right word, really privileged kids, but he doesn't ask for anything, so he doesn't get this, that, and the other. He doesn't want the big birthday party. When I say she's planned this weekend, she's the best party planner. She that's she can make a career out of it right now. She's brilliant, she knows exactly what she wants. She's we've even got um matching pajamas for the sleepover, we've done this, we've done that, but she'll do the research so it's not expensive, so she's good like that in that way, but she does get on paper what looks like a lot more than Tom. But he's okay with that, he's just rolled his eyes at her else. She's off doing that. He doesn't want the party, he doesn't want the matching pajamas, but she they're getting different experiences, but they're different kids 100%, and we're different with them because you can't be the same sentence that they're different.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Because like I said to it's funny because I said to Charlie, do you know what I love about you? And he goes, What? And I was like, I just love that you're so forgiving because I basically took his phone off him like literally two seconds before, yeah, and then he's bantering with me and poking me, and I'm like, I just love that you so and he went, What you mean, not like Henry? And I'm like, No, that wasn't a criticism of Henry, that was me saying to you, that's a lovely trait to have. That doesn't mean that your ways right and that here's always wrong, it means that I really appreciate that because it means that I haven't got a child, it means that I don't have to worry about what I say or do, yeah, because I know you'll just accept it and it doesn't impact our relationship. And I think that's something to be really proud of as something, but Henry has things that you know that are his superpowers that he's good at, and Charlie might not necessarily be good at, like Henry will talk to me more about his feelings, Charlie won't. So it was not a criticism, but it just shows like just how different they are, but how automatically Charlie went into the comparison. Yeah. I'm like, that's not what that was. Yeah, and that quickly corrected him.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

It is funny how they do that though, they love a good comparison. It's when they say who's which one of you like they say which one of us is our your favourite, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

They ask you together. Yeah, yeah. But I remember I think me and my sister did that back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Yeah, but I think that yeah, I think that the sibling rivalry that close in age is bound to happen. But when as a parent it's quite difficult to hear, I think.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, it is, but in a way, it's natural and it's normal, and that happens, it's nature to have the rivalry.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

It's survival, yeah. It's all part of our own. You do sometimes get on, but not very often. But what's lovely is just, and we're going off in a tangent, but is what's lovely is just seeing them with Louie. Last night I was feeding Louie in his room, and he I was on this little, I've got one of them little nursing chairs, yeah. And Charlie just came in, kissed him on the forehead when I had him in my arms, and then waved at him and said goodnight.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

He wouldn't do that to Henry, he would not.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

I was so forgetting they're both his brothers, and I said I did say to them, and I have said this to them, I do hope at one point you have this much love for Henry because you know they're both still your brothers, there's no difference between them, and he went, Yeah, Henry's an idiot, and I'm like, but that's because you've bought up been brought up with him, and there's been some sort of like competition because you've been so close, so there's been some whereas there's not that with Louie because they don't have that, and they both kiss him, and I just think that's so sweet. But isn't that funny? Because it's like it's come within, it's come from within them, it's the natural, beautiful love.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

But the sibling rivalry is love, yeah, the word is love, it's just it's attention, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

I suppose so, yeah. I suppose so. They do say like when you love somebody, you sometimes can be a bit mean to them. Maybe I'll say if I say there's a fine line between love and hate and uh so where did where did we start with this podcast? We started with the fact that I like it, gives me fire in my belly to do the work that I do because there's so much awful stuff going on, and I actually don't listen watch the media, and the only reason I come across things, and we said this on the phone last week when we had a catch-up, I realize how much I'm going on social media because I'm seeing things in the news because I'm on social media. I actually don't watch the news. The only way I find out things, like I didn't have any clue about the stuff that's going on with Trump until Rob told me the other night. I don't know. When you said about Trump earlier, I I know that he's done something, but I don't know what it is. It's about Greenland, he wants it, yeah, basically, in a nutshell, but he's just been Trump about it, yeah, basically. And so I didn't know any of that, and so I just think it's like taking responsibility about a what you're exposing yourself to, yeah. B about your own wellness, your own healing and the work that you're doing. And I listened to some moves tell me a story about this solicitor who has been an absolute bitch, there's no other way of putting it, just been really condescending, like really rude. I can't say it because I just don't want to it was a private conversation, but I just think I'm so glad I didn't become a solicitor because that was the line where I was going. Yeah, yeah. Because I just don't have it in me to be that unkind, and I have a conscience, and I think my words and the way that I act are impacting people, and I'm so grateful for the ups and downs I've been through in my career, the career changes, the all the things I've been through, because I'd much rather be in this role and skin than be in that role and absolutely rich and have loads of money and have everything I want because inside I don't know how people live with themselves.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

I I don't get it. Like, yeah, I I wanted to be a journalist. That was where I was headed, and I'm so glad. To be honest, I wanted to be an arts journalist. So in the arts, that side of journalism, that's what I was doing. That's the it was the course that I was I found. It was the arts with journalism. So that's where you went into that part of it. Yeah, but I just thought I thought, imagine if I got down into journalism and I was one of those journalists that going back to episode one, yeah, that cause all that media frenzy and all that pain and that hurt and lie and make stuff up. And what is it called? Point people put against each other. It's not point, what's the word? Post people against each other. No, what's the word? Any oh no, everyone else just create pain. Like, I'm really glad I didn't become a journalist. If I was so much political.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

If I had a PR opportunity and it was with somebody I'm not gonna say it, but if it was some newspaper that's known for being like lying, like the Daily Mail. I was gonna say that, but yeah, I just guess the newspapers are available and can be just as shitty. Yeah. But if I was given that I actually don't think I'd do it because I don't agree with what the media's doing at the moment. I don't want my name associated with anything like that. Do you know and that's where it comes to this consciousness of actually, do you know what? It's not about the money, it's not about the fame, it's about doing the right thing and what means what's important to me.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

I understand why people will say, get yourself in the media, this is another podcast in its own right episode in its own right. Get yourself in the media, especially if you're a change maker and you're trying to make change, get your name out there, get people seen. But when you are getting your name put in papers and media outlets that actually cause the opposite hurt and pain for the people, yes, you're getting yourself out there, but you're an ally with that media outlet. Your name's against the name that might come across judgment, and someone might read I this isn't me judging the people that do that because I get that all media it's exposure, yeah. But I just when I actually see people that are change makers that are trying to do good, but by doing so, some of the press that I've seen them do when actually they're being negative about other people and bringing other people down to get their story across, I still don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

I just don't think you need to on the opposite side. Some people might say they want to see more positivity in these papers, and obviously they're doing good because they're changing the narrative, which I agree. I think five years ago, if you'd have asked me, will I be would I have an article in one of these papers I'd go in? I've been in them, I've been in them. I would go, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

But now if I don't the only way I think I would go in the Daily Mail is to have an argument with the Daily Mail about the Daily Mail. Does that make sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Think we've said it's the only times that the Daily Mail will actually get in touch with us.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

They'll definitely come up on my newsfeed, that's for sure. My mum still gets the Daily Mail, but she only gets it the mail on what is it, the Saturday one, the Saturday Mail. Yeah. She only gets it for the TV guide. The TV guide, she loves the TV guide. My mum has been. I used to love the Jonathan Kane aside.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Radio Times at Christmas, my nan used to lie. Radio Times. Radio Times. Yeah, I think hopefully we haven't gotten too much of it in a tangent. How many have we done 30? It's 45 minutes. Is it? No, or this is an extended episode. Sorry, we'll have to warn people at the beginning. This is extended, and we could talk about all sorts, but we start and we come back to media again and just the world, and just tool number four, media, turn it off.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

All other tools are available in my wellness toolbox, available on Amazon.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

But again, oh, yeah, at the beginning, this is an affiliate, an affiliate episode to Ali Smith. All right, let's end it there. Bye. Bye.