S2 E8 Valued by a pound sign; the imbalance in a woman's role

In this honest and wide-ranging episode, Ali and Laura reflect on chaotic weeks, the mental load of modern motherhood, and the invisible labour that still falls disproportionately on women, whether they're single, married, working, or at home.

⚠️ A note from Ali & Laura: This episode reflects our own personal experiences and opinions only. We know this doesn't apply to every household, there are so many different family dynamics and circumstances. The conversation is intended to shine a light on the high expectations placed on women and the impact that has on mental wellbeing. Not a generalisation, just an honest chat.

Key Takeaways

1. Recovery matters more than perfection in the moment. When chaos hits, it's okay if you couldn't use your tools or cope "correctly." What matters is finding recovery afterwards, a walk, a book, sitting in the sun.
2. Sitting still is not laziness. Sometimes doing nothing is exactly what your nervous system needs. Recognising the difference between genuine rest and avoidance is a skill worth developing.
3. The mental load is real, and it's still mostly on women. From school emails to bike ability letters to apps for attendance, behaviour, and grades, the admin of parenting lands disproportionately on mums, even in two-parent households.
4. "I'm married and I feel like a single mom" is more common than anyone talks about. The breadwinner assumption, that the higher earner's time is worth more, quietly sacrifices the other partner's career and mental health.
5. Approx 15% of teenagers live with a single mum doing it all alone. FACT CHECK- According to the Office of National Statistics 22-25% of children live with a single parent. See more here.
6. Career gaps hurt women more. Women who take time out for children face CV gaps, halted career progression, and reduced pension entitlements, and these are rarely factored in when relationships break down.
7. It's not hats off to one type of mum, it's a personal choice. Whether you work or stay home, every woman is doing her best in the circumstances she's in. The system makes it hard either way.
8. Communication is everything in a partnership. When the understanding, compassion, and conversation break down, so does the relationship.

People

• Ange (the Ice Warrior) — breathwork coach and wellness practitioner working with one of the hosts on nervous system recovery
• Dan Grove — author of Strong Enough to Fall, a book about balancing vulnerability with modern masculinity. Highly recommended for anyone with a man in their life who is struggling. 📖
• Colleen Hoover — fiction author mentioned as a bedtime reading pick

Tools, Books & Resources

• 📖 Strong Enough to Fall by Dan Grove — on vulnerability and modern masculinity. See link above.
• Breathwork — mentioned as a powerful nervous system regulation tool (even if you forget to use it in the moment!)
• Oracle/Affirmation Cards — pulled at the end of the episode. Card drawn: Joy and Contentment

If you need support please use the links below;

Mind Charity UK

https://www.mind.org.uk/need-urgent-help/using-this-tool/

Samaritians UK

https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/

Other support is available and if you would like to be signposted to other tools please email is at intwominds25@gmail.com and we will do our best to help.

Follow us at @intwomindsuk on social media

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Instagram and Alex. Let's face the life, the last and laughter. We're here for conversation that laughter. The ones that heard, the ones that held, and the ones that might be laughed and still fight first. And let's take it up together. Because that's where the human read is just two frames in your ears. It's reminded that you're not alone. And we're all more connected to the thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

A quick note before we start, some of the conversations we have maybe between. If at any point you feel uncomfortable, it's okay to pause, step away, or reach out for support. You'll find more guidance and helpful links in the show notes. Hello, hello. We do the same like hello, hello. So silly. How are you doing? Yes, good, thanks. I was just telling you about my crazy week, and at the minute I'm doing some work with Ange, the ice warrior herself. Oh yeah. So I meet up with her on a Monday and I was telling her my week was like crazy from A E trips to broken down cars to poorly children to parents' evening. Ugh, it was like, oh my god, there was a lot. And I was like, but what I didn't do was I didn't think about the breath work, and I was really I'm really kicking myself like why didn't I use that? She said, Yeah, but sometimes it's not about trying to find things in the moment, it's about trying to recover after. So the chaos has happened. Now, how am I going to calm my nervous system down and give it that recovery that it needs? And I thought, it's so true. I think we put so much pressure on ourselves when we find these tools that when we need it most, we're not using them. But actually, maybe we couldn't have even had the headspace for those. And we just had to get through it and we just had to wing it as so to speak. And I said to her, actually, do you know what I've I've realized this week is that I would often, and I did a post about this week, I would often call myself lazy because I'm quite I am very good at sitting on my bottom. So I've got friends that are like not OCD but super clean houses, constantly on the go, really can't sit down and relax, often don't do it, and I'm not like that at all. I can actually sit in the chaos and I can sit in a mess because I know that what I need in that moment is to just sit, but I need to just recognise sometimes where actually I could have done a bit more, I could have moved my body a bit more, or I could have been a bit more proactive, or stop procrastinating. But I do think that there is such a huge pressure on women to go go get this done, look after the kids, do the dinners, go to work, full-time, part-time, it doesn't matter. And all the other ad mini bits that come with having kids and just running a household. We think we've got to do everything all the time. We've got to have a perfect house because Instagram tells us we've got to have this showroom type house. I'm actually happy to sit in the mess of toys when Louis's on a nap on a Tuesday when I have him at home because who's gonna get those toys back out in an hour? What's the point of tiding them away? Oh, we're just we're our own worst enemies, aren't we? I think so. And I think it's just a reminder to everyone, not just women, but just know that if you weren't able to do the things that filled your cup up in a week because it was just chaos or a day, whatever, there's always time to then find something to do after that can help you recover and calm down and bring you joy, and it's important to find that afterwards. I sat outside on Saturday and just read a book in the sun. I haven't read a book other than being on holiday in so long, and I've literally almost I'm three-quarters of the way through, I'm so proud of myself.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I love reading books, but again, I just don't do it unless you're on holiday. Though, again, a couple of weeks ago I did pick up a book because I found out one of the guys at work's an author, and it's a brilliant, it's a lovely book, and I feel bad but I can't think what it's called off the top of my head. But it's about being vulnerable, it's about being vulnerable in modern masculinity. It's the oh gosh, I need to remember this now. It's being brave to fall. I'm gonna have to confirm what it is whilst we're sitting here chatting. But I actually really consciously made an effort to sit at bedtime, and instead of getting my phone and scrolling before I went to sleep, I was like, right, read a few chapters, and I've got three quarters of the way through it, and then I've stopped. I do this, and I'm like, I need to finish that book, and then it's like a pressure I'm putting on myself to get that book. And then you beat yourself up, oh I should have done it, and I've not done it. And but I am gonna go and check what he's what's called because I'm gonna do it, a massive disservice because whether you're no matter who you are, I think it would be really useful for if you're like you've got a man in your life who is struggling in any way to read it and just see things from a man's more of a male perspective. I'm just gonna go to my orders because I did order it, I did order it on Amazon and in oh that's it, Strong Enough to Fall. It's called by Dan Grove, and it's about the art of balancing vulnerability with modern masculinity. So it's been really it's very poetic actually. That's how I describe it. So we'll have to quote that in the show notes as well. Yeah, a link to it.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

But go on, tell us what you're reading then. What's the book? What was your book? Well, I'm just reading a a is it Colleen Hoover? Yeah. And so she's got loads of there. I've got so many books in my cupboard that I'm like, oh yeah, I'd love to read that. But let's face it, I don't go on holiday. And if I am on holiday, it's not a bloody let's sit down in the sun and read a book sort of holiday with my art. Um I haven't for ages, so I'm really pleased with myself that I have got into it. And I think it's because we're in a world with so many distractions that either a lot of us just pick up our phone and that's the way that we switch off, even though it's not switching off, or we're so exhausted by the time we get into bed, we can't stay awake to read a book, and that's often my problem. So I'm trying to go into bed earlier to wake up earlier, but it is tricky. I just feel as as women, not all women, and not just women, but just from my perspective and the people in my life, we've just got so much going on, there's just so many things, and no one can really prepare you, I don't think, from running a house and being a parent as to just how much admin comes with that. Like house insurance, your child's going on a school trip, your child needs new shoes, like it's constant, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yesterday I got an email confirming bikeability at Eloise's school next week, and I was like, Yeah, okay, get the email, it's gonna give me all the information I need. No, that was the follow-up email. Oh so as a follow-up to the previous email, I'm like, what previous email? Can I find the previous email? Yeah, so there will have been a previous email. I've probably just gone going down, just deleted it, probably opened it, thinking I've read it, deleted it, delete. And now I'm like, Oh, I haven't got all the facts and information that I need. Luckily, sometimes the school mom's group chat is very helpful for that. And I do I can go back and I can actually see things in there. Yeah, and also I can go to the ex as well if I need to, because he gets this, he gets the mail my messages and mails as well. But it's just oh now I've got to think about Monday. So straight away I'm reading it, I'm like, okay, Monday morning, she gets on a school bus. She won't be getting on the school bus because I need to take her to school with her bike. That now means I need to look at my diary for work and make sure I'm blocked out so nobody books in any meetings from before quarter past nine. But I often have meetings half eight, nine o'clock. So it just oh, my brain yesterday was like, that's just this one message about the bike felt really overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, I had a similar thing yesterday. So Henry's gonna have some extra sessions, settling in sessions at the high school, and it's for children with SEN or children that have additional needs, or perhaps they're just super nervous about going or whatever. Yeah, so I didn't read all the letter clearly. So I read the letter and was like, those are the dates, okay, great. Scan this QR code, say that he's going to attend, scan the QR code, feel decent as in, he's gonna attend. Got an email from the high school yesterday saying these are the three dates and these are the times, and you need to drop them off five to ten minutes beforehand and then collect them. And I thought, have I read that right? Why would I take him when there's a group of them going? Like, why would I take him? Oh, yeah, normally this the you do it with the junior school or what have you. So I thought, talk about creating more stress for parents. One of the days, it's three Thursdays in a row. Of course I work a Thursday. Three Thursdays in a row, one's for 45 minutes, two till two forty-five. One is for three hours in the afternoon, maybe 12 or something, or maybe it's only an hour. The following Thursday, it's all day. Okay, fine, I'll just change my days at home. But I messaged the school and I said, Is this right? You aren't all the children going. She said, Well, we did say this in the letter when we read when you said we sent it. I was like, Okay, great. And I messaged them.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Are you a scanner? Yeah, I scanner, I never read anything.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

I think it never gets me into right pickle sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

I'm trying to sort something out with a solicitor at the moment, and I can't actually book it and agree to it because there's I need to read loads of stuff to do it, and I've just can't I keep looking at it going, I'll come back to that, I'll come back to that my brain, but I know I can't sign something unless you've read it unless I've read it properly.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I said to another parent, Oh, if you need some help, maybe we could share. I could do one day, you could do the other day, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

To be honest, I'm free. She said, but it is really frustrating. And then I thought, you know what? I'm gonna message the head and say, I wish this was organized and communicated a bit better. And basically it was down to a staffing issue, which okay, that's fine, that it is what it is, but that was never communicated ever at any time. It was just context. You do it, and I'm like, why should we do it? And I just feel bad for the kids because they're now going to go in with the parent, which is a bit uncool at 10-11 to go in with your parent to this massive school. So it would have been nicer for them to all feel like they were part of the group that are all going together. And I've walked down from the junior school and got so I just think it was badly managed. Also, could they not have communicated with the high school and maybe another member of their staff could have helped? I just yeah, it's just frustrating. I just think parents have so much going on. Sometimes I don't think people help us.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Like nurseries, schools, paperwork, apps, apps. How many apps do we need? Oh, it's all about the apps. I've got one app for behaviour and one app for attendance and grades because they haven't yet to work with a new PT this week, and it isn't the one that you suggested.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I've ended up going, I've hyper focused on the one that you did talk about. I've hyper focused on something and I'm all for it.

unknown 11:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

So I have a meeting with him this week, and then to be honest, he starts sending me stuff that I've got to read. He starts sending me apps that I've got to download, and that I need to check in, I need to go and take measurements, I need to do this, I need to do that, and I'm like, what have I signed up to? Yeah, I've just given myself more life admin. Yeah. And it's really and I'm not my brain, I'm meant today's meant to be day one, and I haven't done any of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I just I'm still procrastinating on it. When Rob asks what do I do on a Friday? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm just taking on the full-time role as a parent and house owner and wife, but trying to cram it into half a day because I do have other things going on. Of course, I've got stuff to do.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

It's really interesting actually, because talking about like all the stuff we have to do, and even when we're in a marriage and trying to get that understanding between each other.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

And it was something on TikTok that someone else had shared around 50% of teenagers live in a house. No, six fifty percent of teenagers' parents are divorced now in the UK. I think it was in the UK, it might have not been specific to the UK, but so it was basically saying, I'm one of those teenagers, this is the messaging. And then it you flipped along, and then it said, and uh 15% of all teenagers live with a single mum who does all of the parenting. And basically her daughter was sending that to her to say, Mum, I see you, which I thought was beautiful, and that's why her she was sharing with me, How lovely is this that my daughter shared this with me, and he made me quite teary because I was like, to know that your 16-year-old daughter has acknowledged and sees you and sees what you're going through, and it made me sit back in last night and really reflect on the situation that I'm in. And I'm not I've never called myself a single mum. Actually, 50% of the time, I am a single mum. I know that I'm in a relationship with someone else, but Josh has absolutely zero responsibility of any kind and financial, etc. etc. in caring for my kids. He does care for them. He will support me, but what I mean is he doesn't actually have to, if that makes sense. I do get support though. It'd be unfair of me to say that I don't. But Matt, my ex-husband, does he's 50% single parent as well. When he has the kids, he's he does do it all on his own. And it's it's really hard 50% of the time. It's hard parallel parenting co-parents, but that's what I'm talking about here because I don't want to blur the lines with women and men who are single parents and they are doing it 100% of the time. They did all this life admin, they're having all these debates in their brains and with teachers and things in the system. They've also probably got the challenge of the ex who isn't uh available or isn't present, or they might have an ex that's narcissist or coercive and doesn't do anything for the kids but is still playing mind games and what have you, plus all this life admin, plus all the stuff, and you just think geez, no wonder so many people are breaking. And I think of you like you have had the most horrendous week last week when you told me all the things, and that's for you to share, not for me. Every day though, there was a challenge, whether it was a partner, a child, sick, and you think, imagine if a hundred percent of the time you were doing all of that on your own.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

The thing is though, I was thought about when you were talking, and this I we were talking about this at work yesterday. I'd really like to see a change in society's perception of the roles of a of parents, because I'm not a single parent, but all of these stuff comes to me, all of the admin, all of the like negotiating. If we ever go out, even if it's like Rob's like event, I'm sorting the kids out, even if if it's to his parents or my I'm sorting the kids out, and it really came to light, I feel in COVID, because it was for the women to take the time off, or if the kid, or if you get a call from nursery or the school, the women, I'm not saying this is for everyone, but it matters.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

But it is the majority, majority, yeah, it does seem to be the majority.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah, because I saw I saw some parents in COVID splitting the responsibility, and I thought, God, that's amazing, but it's not necessarily down to the the people, it's down to organisations, employers, having that a more flexible approach to oh, okay, yeah, of course you want to go and get your child, and yes, of course, it's not down to one person.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, and I I've got to be and I've got to give this to my ex. We in COVID times it was quite shared. However, we agreed that I wouldn't go into an IT contract and I would do the homeschooling and do my well-being stuff on the side, and then in the evenings and stuff when he finished work, it would become quite split. So we sat down and said, How are we going to do this? and did it in a fair way. A lot of people don't have that conversation. We didn't have a conversation, they assume, oh, it's down to mum. No, we did not have a conversation. No, and we have to shout at so because there is a lot of dads that do it as well, but the majority does fall on it does fall on the woman. Oh, 100%. And actually, the single mum thing, I can imagine there'll be people listening to this feeling like, well, actually, I'm in a marriage and I feel like a single mum. It does fall on me to sort out if anything comes up from school. It does, um, and it's I do feel, and I don't I might be wrong in saying this, but I sometimes feel like there's a bit of a the breadwinner, if you like, in the household, the higher earner assumes, well, I'm earning all the money, so your role is not less important, but with regard to the sacrifice. If anybody's going to be sacrificed, it needs to be you because I'm the higher earner, so you need to go and sort everything else out because I'm busy over here. And I do think there's a real imbalance on that now. Because, yes, going back for our grandparents' days, my my nan did become a housewife when she got married. She did lots of things voluntary, and then when they both did a lot of charity work and stuff together, but she was the housewife, so she did do all the jobs, she did raise dad and make sure she was there for him and everything, blah blah de blah. But now it we're all working, really, most of us, and yet the responsibility still sits really from a societal point of view that the woman does a lot has changed and a lot's progressed, but not enough. So that's also a call out to people that do just this. Isn't it sale for your housewife? You've got it so much easier. Because I don't think if you've got a housewife, I couldn't do it. I could not be, I couldn't be a stay-at-home mum, I couldn't. I so I've been really honest, I think, about this before. Matt never really wanted me to go back. Not that he didn't want me to go back to work. He's like, you don't have to. We could afford for me never to work again. I could be a housewife. And when Thomas was 10 months old, hadn't even had the year off, I went, I I need routine, I need to, I live, I really do. But and I was massively judged for this from within my circle, not friends as such, but within the wider circle. I didn't have to go back to work and I chose to because I could I couldn't be the housewife. I just I need my brain, whether it's my neurodiverse brain, needed more stimulation, needed more and you could have said we could have done all that things with your child, it's unless you're in it. No, circumstances are different, aren't they? And I now look back at that and I think, geez, had I not gone back to work, where would I be now? Yeah. Because I kept my toe dipped into the IT space, and that's what's got means positioning.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

You know what they say, because like I I had a conversation not too long ago about like when people go through divorce and they then go they go through each other's pensions and stuff, and I thought that doesn't make sense to me. But I then somebody explained it to me, yes, but if you've not been working or you've been working less, your career progression has really been halted in many ways for many people because you've been at home, so why wouldn't you be entitled to that? So I do understand, I do get that. I just think there is just a so much work to be done across the board for it to feel fair because we're now expected to do everything we were doing before and more. And I was gonna say to you actually, hats off to women that stay at home, but I just think it's a choice. I actually think that they could say the same to us, they could go, God, I couldn't work and do all this. Exactly. Exactly. I couldn't be at home and do all of that. I need something else, so yeah, it's not like a hat's off to one of us, it's like you've got a personal problem and choice. Yeah, like we're all smashing it, trying to do our absolute best. But things are made so difficult, I think. And it's like with when Louis was for not long into nursery, I got called I think six weeks in a row. He didn't have one full week at nursery. I was pulling my hair out. I've got stuff to do, but it's all on me to go out and go and get him. And the nursery rules have changed, and I'm like, What how do parents do this when they keep getting called out for like things that I wouldn't have been called out for the older two? It's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I remember when then so I was the higher earner at one point in our relationship when we first met actually, and then when we launched the business, I was the higher earner, and then that shifted when I then had Thomas, which was actually only a couple of years later. After Thomas was born in 2014, we set the business up in 2011. So it was about two and a half years later, so then things shifted. I took time out of the business to raise our child, and then I went back in, and so I then he earned more than me, obviously. Then we were always on the same day rate and stuff like that, and then but then I obviously only worked in the business part-time because I was raising a child and then I decided to get into the wellness stuff. But that was actually a few years later when I was pregnant with Eloise and we were talking about what you're gonna do afterwards, and he was like, You don't really need to return to IT. But then obviously, he then was our highest earner, and then I would pick up contracts, bits and pieces here to work with our lifestyle. And yes, as he pointed out to me quite a few times, well, you didn't work part time in the business to raise the kids, it was to help your wellness business, which is true, that was one of the reasons, but my wellness business gave me. Flexibility with our kids. So I still wanted to do my wellness business. It also gave me flexibility and I was keeping my toe dipped in in IT. Good job, I did it. So then when we actually came to separate and divorce and we were looking at finances and we decided we were gonna I decided I was gonna go back into a permanent job because of just that security, pension, etc. etc. Loads of reasons. Tried to make the sensible decision, even though it was effectively going to give me a pay cut, because if I'd carried on running all my businesses in the in the way that I was, I probably would have earned a little bit more, but then I would have had the overhead of running businesses and the stress and contract renewals and stuff like that. So I was looking for permanent work and looked, I was going for a permanent job at this point, and I hadn't got a job at this point. I didn't know if I was I'd got one or anything like that, and I was still trying to work out whether I could do some of the stuff with the consultancy company, or I was in a bit of a loss at this point. And I turned around to him and said, Look, if I don't sort myself out with work by my cut-o date, because he'd given me a cut-off date as to when I had to get completely sorted and completely financially independent. This was before we're even divorced, by the way. And I had to find the half of everything for everything and anything with regard because our income was very, we just put everything in a pot and split it, and now it was like you have got to come half to the table. And I was like, what if because of what you earn and he earned a lot, I can't get a job with that kind of money? He went, not my problem. I went, so you won't even talk about like child maintenance or anything like that. He went, No, we're 50-50 with the kids said, Yeah, but it doesn't work like that, and then it doesn't, everyone thinks it does, it doesn't work like that. It they do take into consideration if there's a difference in salaries. And he went, his words to me were, you have got the capability of earning the same money as me, which you've proven. He said, So no. And that was his stance on it. And you know, I took that stance and went, okay. And I took the no, the hard no, and I was like, and I didn't have to earn the same as him, I knew I had to earn to enable me to get the mortgage that I wanted to cover the mortgage and everything. It wasn't like I need to earn the same as him, and actually I didn't earn the same as him initially when and I don't know if I earn the same as him now. I wouldn't have a clue what he now earns because he's changed careers and things. Well, not careers, but he's got new work and different stuff. But what was interesting is that I just went, oh okay, then, and I accepted that. Now I now know I never had to have accepted that legally. If we stood in a court, they would have actually eaten him alive, apparently, with that approach. Because what you've just said, at no point in that, and I haven't given you the full story, in no point in any of that did he go, she took at least two years out of IT to have our children and have maternity with our children and give that year, which is what he wanted, he didn't want me to go back to work, he wanted me to be the house and he didn't take any of that into consideration. He just saw it, it's 50-50, and you've got the earning potential, so you go and sort it out. But I'm a female, it's harder, we earn less money, so it is actually harder to get a job. Yes, I'm capable of doing it, and I've proven I'm capable of doing it, but you know how much harder it is for me to do that. And I had taken time out, which means my CV has got gaps on it, which were questioned when I went for my actual the permanent job I did get. It was questioned what are all these gaps in your CV, which he'll never have to explain or do. Yeah, I I really reflect back on that now. I'm really proud that I did it, and actually, I but I isn't it shit really that it is put under that pressure.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

It is, and also the pay, the pay gap, it's still so far apart, and it is baffled, it really just baffles my mind in so many ways. We've come so far, and then in other ways I feel like we haven't. On the other side of it, which might not apply to your side so much because you both earned good money, but on the other side of it, what I do I am grateful for in my situation is that I obviously he is the breadwinner, he earns more money, and I feel like when you are in that position, whether you're male or female, the pressure's on. And I have a bit of flexibility in that I've decided that I want to leave my permanent role, but I want to do my business, I've got the flexibility to do that, yes, and he doesn't, and so if he ever wanted to change, he doesn't feel like he's got that. So I I do understand, and I think it's only in recent years that I've truly understood the pressure that he must be under because he is bringing most of the money in. So I do want to say that I do understand this is just an open conversation about the whole situation and that I see it from everywhere, but it's just it's my experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

And I've also got it, and I will, I've just said that from Matt's point of view. But Matt's sitting there thinking, You're an ex-wife, why should I care about it's your problem, go out. You're coming to me asking me to sort help you financially piss off. And actually, he was angry at me, he doesn't like me, and I'm asking him for help. He's not gonna say yes. Do you know what I mean? But it did feel really shit because it was to be honest, it didn't really make me angry, it upset me because it was like the value that I bought during that time was completely and utterly dismissed, and the actual understanding and compassion towards a woman in business and how much harder it is than a man, especially a white cis male, it's so much easier. And a woman who has actually taken time out, she's only been working part-time, and you're more than capable, go sort it out, and so I did, and I'm glad I did actually. I'm proud of myself for that, but just oh, it's just frustrating, and it's more like you want them to see, can't you see it, can't you? But they just don't. But you're right in saying that about the pressure of then earning the money, and well, what happens if anything was to happen to that role? The pressure that they feel and the responsibility or they want to set up their own business. This comes back as there's always two sides. Yeah, the most important thing though in this is communication. Yeah, when there isn't the communication and the understanding, the compassion, your marriage will break down, it will fall away.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

I know you said earlier about it when somebody earns less money, it's not that there's not not as much value there, but that's how it feels. Yeah, that's how it feels, that's how it has felt to me. And me and Rob have had a conversation in the past about you're saying to me that I'm not less valuable, but I feel less valuable because money seems to be the thing that puts value on this household. And I think it's just a societal what's the word? Perception, I think, but also it's down to the individual. It's not really Rob's problem if I feel less valued. Yeah, it's not really his problem, it's my problem. I know if I look at the bigger picture and think, do you know what? Let's look at how much the childcare would have been if I'd have gone back to work full-time. How much money have we saved in childcare because I was at home? How much money and time have we saved on so many other things? But I just think that there's some real healing to do for women around that value that we provide to the world.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I think I think I have, I think this might have been talked about on the podcast before. I'm sure it I'm sure it has. About we just split up and we're out at the cricket, we're at the cricket, and the kids are playing their local cricket, it's just not a formal cricket thing, and we're still putting a face on, people know we've separated. At this point, I don't think the kids know we'd separated, I don't think they did, but we're still putting on a show, going out there, look at us too, we've separated, but we're still being good parents. And we sat there and I said to him, The divorce and stuff had been kicked off, and I said, We do need to sit down and work confirm what we're gonna do financially. He was like, He goes, I've been looking at that today. I said, I've worked out who's earned what in the business. So this was Askaly Limited. And he had gone through, we'd started the business in 2011 and he went through and had worked out what each of us had billed. And he'd billed something like 60, it was like three quarters, maybe not as much as that, but it was something like that, two-thirds or three quarters, and I was the other part, and he said so. We need to bring that into consideration, and I'll be honest, the rest of what he said was noise to me in that moment. I thought, geez, everything that we've done together, the decisions we've built, the things we've done together, decisions we've made financially, what I brought to the party at the beginning of this relationship, the things, the decisions we made in with redundancy and taking payments and traveling the world together, and how we've financed that. Our wedding day and how that was financed. Thanks, Dad, by the way. You you look, you then start to your brain does all this thing. Hang on a minute, and you're bringing us down to a spreadsheet and what we've earned into the business, not taking into consideration the children that we've had, the work that we've done, the all the other we've been valued by a pound sign, and it broke my heart. That was me, and it's still I've done so much healing on this, I've done so much work on this. That's how I was valued, and that is why now I can see how it's shown up in my relationship. Now, I do not ask for any financial help from anyone, I never will, because I he valued me, and ironically, we were getting divorced because he didn't think I valued him anymore. Yeah, I was a pound sign, yeah, and that really hurt, and I have had to do the work on that. And again, he explained that in an argument around the fact that, yeah, when we go to court, I think he had fears that I was gonna try and take him for all the money that he's got, but he therefore he was like trying to justify in his head well, and that's what he was doing, he was justifying the decision and why he wasn't gonna help or support me in some of his own ways. I don't know, I'm not in his brain, I've got to be careful not to talk for him, but it hurt because our relationship came down to money, and that's actually the reality of what happens in divorce, and it causes straight.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

It's just a mindset thing, isn't it? It's not just it's for everyone, it's a mindset thing. We all just need to think about the way that we're showing up and the things that are bugging us, the things that are triggering us, and actually, is it someone else's problem, or is it something that we need to work on individually? But I think it's a good conversation to have because and I'd love to hear what people's thoughts and opinions are because no way I know no way at all is me and Allie like finger pointing, saying this is just one situation, or that there's no other way. We're very open to every family, is different, every all the dynamics of families are different. You're gonna get women that are the bread earners, the breadwinners, the bread earners, the bread earners, and you're gonna get men that are stay-at-home dads, and that's that's fine. It's just like from our perception, the the view of how women are hasn't changed as much as it should have.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

I just I just it's horrible really that when the how we when marriages and relationships break down, how the value of a person completely changes, and that's sad, but that's the reality of our society. Yeah, it really is. And I genuinely, me and Matt did in the end, everything was pretty much 50-50 on paper. It looked like I got a little bit more because he agreed to help with the renovation of the fact that I was moving into a house that we'd rented out for years and stuff, and some of his toy collection. But I remember the solicitor pointing out to me at the end, she said, it does look like that, and I'm sure that'd be great for any narrative that needs to be spun to whoever needs it to be spun. She said, But remember, he got most of the toy collection, which has a high value on it, so but that's not written down on that piece of paper. And I was like, Oh my god, he ended up getting more, and then laughed. I said, But for me, and this isn't because I'm bloody perfect or anything, the way it's worked out now. Yeah, the kids think my house is too small, and kids tell me I need to move house because then they want a bigger house because daddy's got a big house, but our kids have got beautiful homes, and me and Max haven't ripped each other off, we haven't left the other ones struggling. He's been able to buy himself a nice big four-bed house in a lovely area. I'm still in this area now, it's still beautiful, you know how beautiful this home is. And Thomas's bedroom is just tiny, but how lucky we are, and our kids in the end came first, and that's why if anyone's listening to this going through any of this, whether you hate your wife, you hate your husband, your partner, you want to take them for everything you've got, if there's kids involved, just please bring it back to them because it does help you make better decisions. And even if you're in a relationship and you're having conflict over money and you think she should earn more or what have you, or he doesn't make you value you enough for I think, just bring it back to the kids. And if you're showing up for the kids equally and you're working together for the kids, and the kids are happy and settled, then that's that's making it.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

You can't control other people, can you? You can only control yourself, how you feel, how you show up, and so if you can just stay true to yourself and do what you know is the right thing, then that's sometimes that's all you can do, isn't it? But I hope that people have found this podcast episode useful. It did go off on a tangent, but it's always good. I think it's a good an important subject to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

It is, it's interesting, and it's our views, and exactly I'm so open to the challenges and everything I am. I love it all. Yeah, anyway, I best believe that. I'm just gonna pull a card just before we go. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Just to say, how shall we end this? But because we always do cards at the beginning, but they've been in my hands all this time. Oh my god, they're jumping up there. I want a jumper, I want a jumper. Oh, oh, I haven't got a jumper. Oh, one got caught in my hand. Joy and contentment. Love love. Joy and contentment is what it says on the cards, these cards just say all open your heart, be honest, communicate, do the right thing for you, but be compassionate to others and understanding to others, and do the things you love, such as podcasts with Laura, and you will get your joy and contentment. But you do get to choose it. You do get to choose it.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

You do. Thank you. This has been a wonderful and good night. Mic drop.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

All right, big love.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

That's it for today's episode of In Two Minds, where life, loss, and laughter all have their place. Thanks for joining us on the journey. If something here inspired you, make you think or simply make you smile, and share it with someone who might need it. Until next time, take care, stay connected, and remember it's okay to be in two minds.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Before you go, just do like that being talking about today, today or not, it's all feed and wait to read that.