Beyond the Pointe
Two former professional ballerinas sharing experiences as dancers and giving advice to students, parents and current dancers.
Beyond the Pointe
The Kindred Artist
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This week we’re talking with Sarah’s infamous longtime friend Jessica.
We get into body image and how early those messages start, and how you learn to read yourself through other people’s eyes. Jessica talks about navigating injuries and losing her mom while still trying to keep going. We also dive into what it felt like being one of the few Black dancers in the room, and what it could look like to open the doors to more, all while growing up with parents who were also professional dancers.
It’s about identity, where inclusion still has limits, and the kind of friendships that last through all of it.
Thanks for hanging out with us on Beyond the Pointe.
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We’re two girls waiting in the wings — and we’re so glad you’re here.
Welcome to Beyond the Point, two girls waiting in the wings. We're your hosts, Sarah and Amy, former professional dancers, and we're pulling back the curtain on the real ballet world.
SPEAKER_01From body image and relationships to money, mental health, and life after the stage. No topic is off limits.
SPEAKER_02Whether you're a dancer, a retired bunhead, a parent, a student, or simply curious about what really happens behind the scenes, you're in the right place.
SPEAKER_01Follow along with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod to share your questions, comments, and episode ideas. Now, let's step beyond the point shoes and into the stories that shaped us.
SPEAKER_02She walked here and canoed here, and it's taken her all this time to get over overseas. Okay, seriously.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's my friend. My longest friend. I don't say oldest, but my long, my longest standing friend. Well, you're not my oldest friend.
SPEAKER_02Who's your oldest friend?
SPEAKER_01Nephi. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good call, good call. Jessica's Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_01Um you said her name.
SPEAKER_02I said her name, too.
SPEAKER_01Spoiler alert, it's Jessica Wyatt. Um this is our 40th year of friendship.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh!
SPEAKER_01Cheers, you guys. 40 years of friendship. Yeah. Um, okay, so let's so me and Jessica we grew up together, obviously. I've talked about her a lot. She's my she's my naughty friend.
SPEAKER_00Your naughty friend, naughty high school friend. I'm the one. I've never been one.
SPEAKER_02I've never heard Sarah say that about you. My naughty friend.
SPEAKER_01She was my she was the one getting in trouble all the time.
SPEAKER_00I was the one getting in trouble.
SPEAKER_01She was the one doing real life. That's she was doing real life while the rest of us were in the studio. She balanced it a little bit more than the rest of us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you probably showed Sarah real life and made her a little bit more like of a human. Yeah, a little bit. Kept her more of a human.
SPEAKER_01In the older years, like around 1890. Out of high school. Once I was out of high school, we did more things together. Yes. Yeah. We can get into that later because there's definitely some stories there. We were obviously at OBT school together. Okay.
SPEAKER_00We're at OBT school together. Um we were there for a long time. And then when people from our class started to go to different schools, maybe like trainee programs and stuff. I I tore my ACL. So that held me back like a year, and people were already like going and being apprentices and other places. Um, so I guess you could call it was unofficial, but I was kind of like uh rehabbing from that. I was like a trainee at OBT, you know. That must have been so hard at that juncture. That was hard to have that hard because there weren't. I mean, I think I think you were still, I think you were around. Or was that when you went you that's when you went to college? We missed each other that year. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't really have a lot of people, but I was like taking a couple college classes. I had already graduated high school and I was just kind of getting ready for the next season of company auditions, which I almost didn't do because I was just like, ugh, it's too much. But then I did do like an audition tour. Um, then I got um an apprenticeship with Joffrey. I was there a year and a half, um, like a contract and a half, because the second contract, I only got a six-month contract. Um, and then there they were union, or they are union. And so, you know, you can only be an apprentice for two years, and then either you get into the company or you go elsewhere. And I kind of made the decision beforehand that I wasn't even gonna our paths were not gonna continue together. So um left that, went auditioned, and got into a much, much smaller contemporary dance company. I didn't really know what I was doing, but um, Luna Negra Dance Theater in Chicago. And I was there for I don't know, five, six years, and then the direct director of that company um had had his career with Ballet Hispanico in um New York, and then at that point, um took it over and became the director of Ballet Hispanico. And he asked myself and another good dancer friend of mine to go along with him, and so we were like, sure, we'll go. And so we went to New York. I danced for Ballet Hispanico another six, seven years, and and then I retired, and that was it.
SPEAKER_01Right on. And now it's back now. That's the overview. Now it's back up and you have two, you had two parents that were professional ballet dancers.
SPEAKER_00Everybody's always surprised. They're like, your dad too. And I was like, Yes, men, men dance. Um his case was uh uh kind of random and special case too, because uh he came, he's from Trinidad and Tobago. He came to this country on a swimming scholarship. Like he hadn't he wasn't dancing, he didn't really dance until he was 19. And um another like Nephi story, yeah. And um, I think he got into some like summer intensive or something at Jacob's Pillow, and he found a photographer to take like these beautiful dance photos of him, and he sent he sent them to Dance Theater of Harlem. And Arthur Mitchell, you know, the founder of Dance Theater of Harlem saw them and basically invited him to come and do an apprenticeship. And that was that was the beginning of his career. And then he ended up becoming a principal uh um at Dance Theater of Harlem. That's where he met my mom. And um now my mom was from uh Mexico City, Mexico, and she I think started when she was like 15. She also started late. But um in school, the teacher, uh, I think in her her regular, you know, educational school, um her teacher saw that she had talent, and so they they kind of like swooped her up into the um one of the prestigious ballet schools, which is uh RAD, which is Royal Um Royal Academy of Dance in Mexico. And um, and she started there and then got into the national um ballet of Mexico, um, danced a lot of things there, and I think Dancer of Harlem was touring to Mexico and she auditioned while they and she got that job and she went to New York and became later became a principal there as well. Um, I think both of them took a brief break from New York because there was um a big um, I don't know what you call it, there were lots of Cuban dancers that were in that came from Cuba to dance in the Mexican company for a couple years. And so my mom wanted to be a part of that. So she and my dad went back to Mexico, danced there, had that whole experience, and then went back to to DTH later. And then when I came along, they didn't want to raise me in New York, so they came out here to Portland. And they were founding members of they were founding members of Pacific Ballet Theater. Formerly, yeah, that was Yeah, Valley, Oregon, and Pacific Ballet Theater, and then they merged to become Oregon Ballet Theater. So you grew up in the studio, they were teaching I so grew up in the studio. I um they were both teaching. My dad, um, I think was um he had he had ruptured his Achilles, I'm not sure when, I feel like partially before and then later on also at OBT. I just remember like, yeah, I I mean I my dad is like used to sit used to sit on James's lap and watch rehearsals. As a as a as a baby, you know.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I grew up watching Copellia and Paquita and my parents rehearsed Don Q and Nutcracker and all that stuff. So it was very natural that when I turned three, they put me in classes. But I never, and I always say this, um, I never felt pressured. Like they just like presented it to me, and if I liked it, I could stay. And I know that if I had said I don't like this anymore, they would have taken me out. But I never I never I never didn't like it.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. Oh, that's so great. So did your parents have, in terms of teaching, so they both taught at the school. Were they very different teachers?
SPEAKER_00Were they to say that I didn't really experience my dad as a teacher because he was, I think by the time I was actually in the school, he was the director of the school. He had kind of stepped back from teaching, or maybe he was teaching the older girls. I don't know if you remember.
SPEAKER_01I think my sister had him, maybe, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Like I don't, we never had him. Um so I I don't know. And maybe like way fast forward, way you know, as an adult, maybe when he was still teaching around the city, maybe we would take a couple classes. No, so I don't know why. He likes to get real he likes to get real fancy with his uh yeah, this combination totally. Does he still teach? Um, he does. He's still he's teaching it's not too late.
SPEAKER_02Go take a men's class, go take one, go take your men's class, Sarah.
SPEAKER_01But we had Elena, her mom, a lot. Yeah, I mean, from when like she was one of my first ballet teachers, and then when we got when the directorship of the school changed to I Day, um Elena and I Day were pretty close. And um with that like transition, they were just like close friends, yeah.
SPEAKER_00They were just close friends because they were both she, you know, Heide was was Cuban, and my mom was Mexican, and there weren't yeah, they just they I think maybe she was one of the only like female dance female teachers that that I liked. Yeah, got along with so and we definitely and when she made the move here, I I very much remember like us um just kind of welcoming her. Like she would come over to my house a lot and and have dinner, and we just kind of were that you know support for her, yeah, yeah to a new town and stuff. Um no, but my mom, yeah, my mom was always our teacher, but I think she made it a really clear point to not be my main teacher. Like, like I've heard Sarah um express in other um moments that we would just have her on Tuesdays, like we would have her once, maybe twice a week, but it wasn't when I think of like my training. My mom is not the person who gave me my training, you know. She was there and she she um had a lot of effect on the dancer I became, but she was not the main person who who trained.
SPEAKER_02She wasn't like primary person your ear. Yeah, yeah. Sarah always speaks of her so highly, and like it was even though it was just once a week, it was like, oh, and not like, oh, we get to slack off, but like I feel more comfortable, yeah.
SPEAKER_00She was really, I mean, I also what I gather from other people um that had her as a teacher. I just think she really made an effort to kind of give everyone a little bit of attention, and especially kind of what she viewed maybe as like the underdogs, you know, like the hard workers, like maybe she liked me a lot. Well scrappy, scrappy, you know, the ones who did. I mean, I they only let's be real, she only paid attention to the prodigies and the favorite and the ones Oh, that's so frustrating. Yeah. So um, and my mom paid attention to the rest, you know, and she always gave you like you know, positive um just energy and and uh would help your confidence and and you know, Valley Day was like smashing that. Lowly breaking you down. My mom was always there to be like, okay, maybe you know, you're you don't have a lot of extension, but you have that most beautiful foot, or I love the way you move your hands, or you know, like she would always she was really encouraging in that. So it was really it was nice. It was nice. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01So you were also one of very few black dancers, and I can maybe the only for long.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and Taryn too, but Taryn wasn't there very long. She wasn't there very long, no. No, it's weird. I mean, like also I always feel like I can't completely um how should I say this? I can only give like what my experience, right? I also don't feel like I have like the av the normal black girls' experience like growing up in Portland because I feel like because my parents weren't for this from this country, and I grew up in ballet. So it was kind of like, I mean, we lived in Beaverton, we lived in the suburbs, we lived in Portland, which is at that, especially at that point, was very not black, and and I never grew up in the black areas of the city. My schools weren't black, like you know, so I was kind of used to being one the only one or one of few, and especially in in the ballet studio. It was just I don't really think I I felt a huge difference, but because it was hard to separate it from like my body type. So it was like when I went when I when I auditioned for SAB, for instance, like that was clear that that was not gonna be where I got in. I wasn't long, I wasn't thin, I wasn't light-skinned, you know, so I didn't really go into it thinking that that was gonna be a possibility for me anyway. Um I think in certain auditions it it could be a positive thing because I could stand out, but I definitely as in this isn't just in ballet, but this is in so many aspects of life. I think as a black person, you just kind of you have to prove that you're almost better than your white counterparts. So I just I always knew that that's what I had to bring to the table. I would get noticed because you can't not, but I would probably have to get the leg up more, try to do more turns, you know, be at my thin.
SPEAKER_02You're right, and you're kind of like the spotlight is automatically on you, and that brings positives and negatives too, feeling like you've got to be on all the time because maybe you're uh the uh person that's in the audition is like just going to you did your mom ever talk to you about that?
SPEAKER_01Was that a conversation?
SPEAKER_00Not really, because I don't really think she experienced it because in Mexico she didn't really experience it because she's one of many Mexicans, and her father was African American, so she was a tiny bit darker than you know, your average Mexican. Um, but I don't think in Mexico it was an issue for her, and then the company that she was with in the States was in Harlem, so it was all you know it's all brown skin. Yeah. Um so I don't think she really experienced any anything pertaining to to discrimination in that sense.
SPEAKER_02And then coming to Portland, it sounds like they both your mom and dad were in fully embraced.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're pretty embraced, and they also they're along with the the company, they both taught at Jefferson High School, which is in North Portland, which is predominantly black, and it's it was at that point uh an arts um dance high school, and so it had a big dance program, so they were both part, they were both on faculty there. Um so again, yeah, not really having to deal with that.
SPEAKER_02And then you moved to Chicago, where there's tons of black people.
SPEAKER_00Way more diversity, maybe than Portland and no, I was at Joffrey, so at a company that was maybe 50 between 50 and 60 people. I was one of two. One of the two females, Erica, yeah, yeah, no more. Um, she was the other one, and then there was there were two, I think one or two males, but that was it. That's there. There are couple, a couple Asians, a couple Latinas, and that's about it. But again, you know, maybe in that, I mean, in that aspect, I think it it helped me because there were only six apprentice apprentices. Um so I was I clearly remember I did the um the cattle call, big audition, and I was right in front of Mr. Arpino, who, you know, was the director at that point, who was already in his 80s, but he was watching the the audition, and I just I think I did a dodge, and I like I hit like a really good balance, like right, like really right in front of him.
SPEAKER_01You're a balancer, you can get those.
SPEAKER_00I am a balancer, I am a balancer, and so I hit that like really well. And that at you know, I caught his eye, and then on top of that, our our former ballet master from OBT, um, Mark Gold Goldweber? Goldweber. Um, he was a ballet master there, and so I'd always had a really good relationship with him. He knew me from the James days, and so that that helped me. He could vouch for you. Yeah. Yeah. So wowed out a lot there.
SPEAKER_02When you got to Joffrey, like, did you feel like you could stand out and be more yourself or find your own dancer identity? Or did you feel more like, okay, uh, this is the mold I've gotta shape into versus like here's me, and or did you feel pressure to kind of fit in?
SPEAKER_00I feel like I felt pressured to fit in because it was my first job and you're an apprentice, so you're not fully in the company. You still we still had to wear pink and black, we weren't allowed to wear colors. We could maybe wear a skirt and some leg warmers. Um, and then I clearly remember this. And then on Fridays, if all the three female apprentices got decided on the same shade of color, we could wear a colored leotard or all black and wear black tights on Fridays. That was something individuality. But it's just so you were reminded that you're not you're not there yet. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I was just trying to, yeah, I did not feel like I could be a crazy um individual there. And and I always had there, I had a big pressure of losing weight constantly, and that was that became ending up being the reason why I didn't get a full contract the second year. So that that that took over everything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I hear that um okay, so yeah, let's talk about body image and let's dive into dive into it our favorite topic. Um so when you think back in your childhood in ballet, when did you first become critical of your body or aware, or were you ever critical of yourself, or did it all come from somebody being like, Jessica, that's not how you're supposed to look? And then you're like, Oh, am I not supposed to look?
SPEAKER_00I clearly remember. Um, I didn't, I mean, I think I probably always looked in the mirror and I was like, I have a little more tummy than the other girls, or maybe like my tights are a little. Tighter than the other ones, but well, don't compare it to me. I had a good time. Yeah, we were clearly the opposite. Um, but the the beginning of it was I was 10 years old. I might have been younger. No, I think I was 10. And I had shin spleen, bad shin spleen. I mind you, that carried on through my career and didn't go away till I got rid of point shoes. Okay. But um when I was 10, when I expressed it to Ida, she told me it was the weight. The weight was the issue. And that was the beginning. That was the beginning of um just always up and down trying all kinds of diets. My poor mom, she she really she helped in all ways that she could, but she had a body type like Sarah. So it she didn't know from experience how to help me. But but she was as helpful as she could be. She wasn't, she didn't, she definitely didn't make the situation worse. So that was That's good. Yeah. Um, it was always positive. But um I was always up and down, and that's when the having good, you know, good a fat day, skinny day in the mirror with a good leotard, a bad leotard, and you connect it all. I can't do triple pirouette because my ass is too big, and like it's just you know, you know. Um there that carried on, and then I don't know, I maybe 14, 15 is when I discovered bulimia, and I was like, that sounds perfect. I can diet as long as I can, and then when I can, I can just stuff my face and then throw it up and you know, literally have my cake and have my cake and eat it too. Literally. Um, and that's all it was for me, even though it carried on for like 10 years, off and on, just um, but it wasn't anything deeper than that. Like it was literally just I was tired of dieting and I wanted to like binge and then I perched. Um and then, you know, and it's sad because I Day sometimes often would uh punish me for not being skinny enough by not giving me roles, knowing very well that I was um deserving of them, like technique-wise and ability-wise, that that I should be getting those roles. But it was like it was she was like showing me um um teaching me a lesson. Now hearing that, that sounds awful, but in a way, I am thankful that she did that because the exact same thing happened to me when I became a professional. The exact same thing. So at least it wasn't, at least I was prepared, you know, and I didn't find that it was like a huge shock. If that had never happened to me, I mean it's shitty all around, let's be honest. Yes.
SPEAKER_01But the system's broken, but that was the system. Yes.
SPEAKER_00But had none of that ever been presented to me as a child or teenager, and then had, you know, Joffrey not let me dance my very first um performance because they thought I was too big. Had that been the first time I experienced that, I would have been so much more torn apart. Because it already happened to me. I was like, okay, well, I get it. Like, I'll, you know, try harder, get on the Atkins diet and see if I can get down, you know.
SPEAKER_02But then it's like the those are first of all, I just think it's so stupid to hear at such a young age. I mean, 10, even before that, yeah, that weight has an impact and like negative impact on your dancing, on your potential career, is just not okay.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's worth mentioning that like we had in our group, our level, Jessica and I were the together, I think the whole time. Um we had we had some prodigies in our class. It was two girls, but Jessica was right there too. She was in that group for sure. Yeah, however, her weight was what kept her back from like those two girls got every everything in the world. Totally. And they were very tiny people. One I suspect did have an eating disorder much of that time, but it went who nobody cared.
SPEAKER_00Nobody cared or noticed enough to say anything. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01She made very small. Um, so who cares?
SPEAKER_02Um but so really the only it's like we are at the same level, we just have different bodies.
SPEAKER_01And I'm clearly and Jessica was probably, if I do say so better better because she had this artistry side of her that the other two maybe didn't have as much. Um, so the technique and the artistry was there for Jessica, and these two were little technicians and had beautiful little bodies, yeah. So Jessica was definitely gatekeeped out of that group at time.
SPEAKER_00Totally. But then it's like, yes, I agree. And um, but like at that time, if she's preparing us to go into these companies, the companies weren't weren't different at that point. So it's kind of like this is what you're gonna get. This is what you're gonna get. This is what the this is the world you're going into. Yeah, you know, and and you know, for me personally, uh, she wasn't all horrible for me. She there were other times where she would give show me, uh, bring me a book of Amaya Plasetskaya and be like, look, this is one of the most beautiful and famous ballerinas of the world, and she is not on the thin side, you know, and she would show me that and kind of like encourage me when I would, you know, whatever, get down and stuff.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I think it's like she was trying to care in the way she knew how. I think she was. I mean, the way she pulled me aside to let me know no come no summer program was going to take me was like her way of protecting me. Although that's only gonna be like, oh, now I saw it. Like, you know, like yeah, look, I don't want you to get your heart broken. So I'm just gonna tell you right now, literally. And you know, I guess in for you it worked out in that way, Jessica. But but yeah, it was it was a dangerous little game to play.
SPEAKER_00She meant she meant well, it just didn't come out always. So I mean, yeah, that's what I that in in my specific case. I am glad I got that kind of pre-warning, pre-experience, because it's exactly what happened to me at Joffrey. Like I got there and I didn't make I made the mistake that the summer I had already gotten the contract, and then the summer before starting, before making the move, I stayed here and worked, and I got a job at like an Italian restaurant where I got free bread every day. Oh, yeah. I have been there, girl. Like I was just not smart. And the and August came and I, in fact, had gained weight and not lost weight. And I'm like, ready to start. Lots of potato egg. Busted. Um, yeah, and and Mark saw me on the first date, and he was like, Oh, maybe, maybe you should try the Atkins, you know, and try to get ready. And of course I did that, and that was stupid, and I didn't get to perform. They did taming of the shrew, and I didn't get to perform the part that they had for me. And then really the only thing I did there was Nutcracker both years. And um, and then the second year they had me in all the casts so that could so that they could basically like dance the weight off of me. I had a blast though. It was fun, it was one of the most beautiful memories I've had because I did, I mean, their Merlotons were only three girls, and I did that every night, and I did that with some of the most, you know, beautiful like principles, if you will, of Joffrey. So you're like, joke's on you! Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So now looking back though, and you've had this lifelong, I don't want to say battle, but you've you've had to consider your weight for all this time. Absolutely. Do you wish you hadn't done ballet? Do you think it should have been handled differently? Or do you you sound like you just accept it for what it was? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, as much as uh I I don't think that it's wrong for us to to slowly try to change the industry. I think that's correct. However, we let's be realistic, it's not gonna change from from one day to the next.
SPEAKER_01Well, and how drastically is it gonna change? Because we're oh this art form is always gonna be based online. Aesthetic. Yes, sure. So how how far are we gonna go even if we change exact stuff? And I think I see change in a way, in a very minimal way, but I see different bodies, but I think we all have a different idea of what different body means in Chile.
SPEAKER_00And ironically, I I also remember that um when because I had maybe had a a possible um offer from ABT Studio at the same time when I was figuring out what what job to take first. And um, and my mom had always kind of sold Joffrey to me as the cup the company that that accepted different body types. Ironic. Um so I went with that one. I mean, if you compare it to ABT, probably because um, but but yeah, I was just kind of like, I don't know. Do I regret any of my experience? No. Would I be am I hoping my daughter does not follow in my footsteps? Yes. Yeah, I would rather her not go through that, especially if it has my curves. It's just too hard. If if you are, you know, are blessed with you know the ballet type body, naturally, those genetics, yeah, then I'd say go for it. But otherwise, it's just I don't know. It's it's a little how much you want to do.
SPEAKER_02It's so crazy to me hearing hearing your words and thinking of my own, you know, past. And it's like when it you give so much life to I'm the the what like I need to lose weight. This is my struggle, and it becomes its own beast, and it's like then you end up at least for me, eating more and oh constantly thinking about diet and food and calories in, calories out, and my body, what leotard I'm gonna wear. How am I so gonna morph my body into looking the thinnest? And it takes over, it does take over. Whereas if I feel like if I didn't have that so much, I probably would have looked better, obviously felt better too.
SPEAKER_01But um you're gonna focus on the dancing part of it more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh my god, I think so much. I focus so much on what I my physical body appearance as opposed to technique and artistry and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that was a huge factor in me deciding to not heavily pursue um Joffrey when when I got my contract renewal, and they basically said we're gonna give you a six-month contract. Um, and either if if you show us that you really want it by losing weight, then we can talk about our future. But if you don't, then we're gonna have to go our separate ways. And at that point, I was already like, you know, just all up in the bulimia. And, you know, as an apprentice, you don't get to dance. You're in the back of the studio all day long with point shoes on, not getting to move your body at all, having to go to the gym on your lunch break after the the six o'clock, you know, full rehearsal day. And I was just like, I don't want this anymore. Like, this isn't worth it to me. And like the reality of me, um the sad part is like I literally was thinking, in a bigger company, what what is the chance that I'm gonna be able to dance enough to keep my weight down like they want it? Whereas in a smaller company where I ended up going, there was only 10 of us, and I'm like, I'm gonna get a chance to dance here. It's not gonna be as much of a problem because I'm gonna be burning the calories. I'm also gonna be, you know, artistically fulfilled. Um, but yeah, you at the end of the day, you're like, do you want a person who's dealing with weight issues is not gonna be able to um keep the weight down if you're in the core. And I just decided I was like, okay, I'm not, I don't, this is not worth it to me anymore. Like, I'm either gonna have an eating disorder for the rest of my career, or I'm gonna maybe give this other thing a go. And if I get it, I get it. And if I don't, I literally was like, I'm doing this one audition, and if it happens, great. And if it doesn't, I'm gonna choose a different career because I tried. And so I got that contract. I went from huge Agma company to 10 dancers working part-time three days a week. We there was no company class, we didn't have um uh a studio. It was part of we he had it worked out, my director, to um have his company take the open, like adult, the open class for a professional level. And we could go take that three times a week. And um, yeah, I went from like two polar opposites, you know, no health insurance. Right. It's like but I got to dance and I got to also tap into my Latin roots, which is not something I had at Joffrey. Um, it was definitely a learning experience as far as like the more contemporary things, because I think, yeah, I auditioned like one-on-one with one of his dancers just to learn some rep so they could see. And then I went to their like big audition and the floor work came up, and I think I just walked because I did it. I was like, I needed to break it down, I don't know how to do it.
SPEAKER_01So it is interesting that our training didn't really align with any stand. Certainly did not prepare us for floor work or improv or improv. How do you feel about improv now? Did your companies did you have to do that?
SPEAKER_00I've had to and I hated it. But the good thing is that like with I had a really close relationship with my with my director, you know, or they he had later on a piece that was done to live music with um a live orchestra and or band. And there was a section like towards the end that was four different um instrumental solos. And every night they would pick names out of a hat to see which four dancers would be improving to those separate schools, and I'd be like, no, don't I had to do it once and I hated it, I hated it. Like the pants, that's improving.
SPEAKER_01My vaginas started sweating. We have a visceral reaction, it's horrible, you know, but like there are people that are born to do that. Choreographers are born to do that. There are people who are trained to do that too, and had we been early trained to improv, I believe we would not have sweaty vaginas and armpit.
SPEAKER_00Right now, that's also that that also touches on those of us that went into ballet companies straight out of high school, you know, or like didn't really have something like Juilliard. Like we had their kids in in ballet spawn well, in both of the contemporary companies that had gone to Point Park and had gone to Juilliard and had that step more. Yes, you went into a company four years later, but you had a little more of a foundation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was so looked down on in our school or at our time. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Because we were strictly in ballet companies. Like it's like ballet, you don't need further training. Like, I'm not gonna waste my and you'll be too old.
SPEAKER_01You'll be too old by the time you get out of there. Right. But you'll be so much more mature and ready for that environment than we were at our time. Totally.
SPEAKER_00So that was 100%. That was uh different, but I I felt really lucky to have a uh boss who believed in me and knew eventually I would get there somehow. Yeah. I definitely showed up the first day of of that contract with like volleyball knee pads because I was like, I've already had one surgery, I'm not messing this up. Right. So um, but but yeah, and that was a really good experience. And then I thought I was gonna be in Chicago for for the rest of my career, but then when he got that offer, I was like, why not? You know, I'm going to New York, I already have a job.
SPEAKER_01So during this time, at some point of this time, your mom gets sick.
SPEAKER_00Your mom gets sick. My mom got diagnosed um with ovarian cancer my last year of high school, and she had uh hysterectomy. I don't know if it was full, I feel like it might have been partial. Um, and she was going, she started treatment like that kind of buffer year that I was also recovering from from my ear surgery and getting back into shape, and then um, but she was still working and it's all kind of hazy. I'm not sure. She went off and on chemo and radiation and then took some time off and did her own like um treatment uh for about five years after that. She battled, yeah. And then it was when I was in Luna Negra when she got really ill. Um I do remember it was like very bittersweet because she was I think not not working full time, she had already gone through chemo, she was wearing a scarf, she didn't have hair, but it was the first time that Luna Negra had gotten a big theater show at the Harris in in Chicago, which seats like I don't know, 1500 maybe it's big. Um, it was newly built, it was a big deal because up until this point, we had kind of been at like college theaters and like you know, like smaller things on tour and whatnot. And this was the big um huge like premiere in Chicago at a big theater, and and my mom was able to come, and she was able to she was able to fly out. Um, that was in the fall of 2005, and she passed in February right after that. So she was able to come and see me happy and me dancing, you know, which was really necessary for all of us, you know, and she came out. I remember we just it was it was a really sweet time. She came out for like two weeks, and after the show, we just kind of like vegged out in Chicago, and you know, she was napping a lot and stuff, and I would just like wait for when she was feeling okay to, you know, do a couple activities or just spend time together. Um yeah, and then she passed in January. I came home for that Christmas here for like a month, and that was really around the time that the doctors were like, come say your goodbyes because this isn't gonna go anywhere. So I I I made the decision to come home and be here for a month. Uh that was hard because she was really, really, really, really thick. She was maybe like 55 pounds. Oh my god, she was really and it was very much like she was sleeping most of the time. I was just like waiting around for her to be awake and kind of acknowledged that that was gonna be like my goodbye, and like said everything I needed to say to her. And then um I had gone back after the month of being here, and then literally she died February 4th. And so, like two weeks after I went back to start working again in Chicago, she passed. Um and no, I think there was like a buffer in there. Um I had gone back, and then like two weeks after I was there is when things got really, really bad, and people and my my aunts and uncles came to say goodbye, and I was like, should I go back again? What should I do? I clearly remember my stepdad being like, I can't tell you what to do. You have to make that decision. And I decided not to come back because I had already kind of said my goodbyes. I knew it wasn't good, it wasn't good for me to see her in such like a frail state, and it wasn't good for her to see me to seeing her. Seeing her, you know, yeah, because I know that was hard for her. So I made decision to not not come back and then and then she passed and I came back for the memorial and the funeral and all that stuff. So and then I and then like a month later, I tore my meniscus. So I was like, I was like, why? Um I literally, you know, and that I mean I'm sure you can uh relate, Amy. Like, I I kind of felt like dancing was like the one kind of steady, stable kind of medicinal thing in my life at that point. And I went like the only thing that made sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, okay. And it's something I shared with her also. So I kind of felt her in the studio. And so I went back and I was like, okay, and like going back to dancing is gonna be what's gonna help me get through this. And then pathartic, therapeutic, yeah. And then nope, you're nope, you're not sorry, you're gonna be off for another six months. And I was like, God damn.
SPEAKER_01So how did you cope with that?
SPEAKER_00That was hard, that was really hard. Um, I was kind of like just kind of like stranded out there.
SPEAKER_02Were you like forced to maybe deal with some of your grief of losing your mom? Or was it too close?
SPEAKER_00No, I was definitely, I never um I don't feel like it's anything that I tried to push down. I I I recognized that like everybody grieves differently, and whatever I needed to do was the correct way for me at that point. Um, I'm not really sure when I started therapy, but but shortly after and bereavement groups and all that stuff. But yeah, it definitely made it a lot harder that now I had had knee surgery and I wasn't able to have that outlet of of and obviously all your friends are working, they're in the studio. So it was just like when it rains, it pours. But literally, like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger because I didn't, you know, I couldn't, it was out of my control. I couldn't do anything. Yeah. I recovered thankfully. Uh menisca's is not as nearly as bad as ACL. So it's been six months and I was back dancing. And I mean, as we all know, when you come back from an injury, it's just like it's like you love it even more because you've been away from it so long and it was taken away from you. And so now it was like, okay, I'm back, let's do this, you know. And um let's see, that was in 2006. I maybe was around for two more years, and I think uh 2009 was when the New York offer came up. So yeah, I was I was dancing, living my life and being happy, and and then and then we got the New York, and so we switched everything and moved, moved on up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right on. Yeah, do you think your mom's passing gave you a little fire under your ass? Or do you think it yeah?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah. And I definitely always felt like I I felt her when I was on stage, especially, and um, and was able, uh I think just able to tap into that when you had uh things that are a little more um tougher uh subjects in pieces that you dance on the day. Like I definitely had um a teacher, she a teacher, yeah, a repetitour, if you will. Um, and I had to like lip sync um a woman who was in pain of leaving her children or something like that. She was like, use the loss of your mom, you know what that feels like, you know. And I was like, All right, yeah, totally. So tapping into unfortunately, yeah, those kind of things make you a little more raw when you're on a age because you can use those things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but it is a gift too to the audience, absolutely, and it adds that layer of raw artistry that really is meaningful and it's not contrived, it's not premeditated or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you consider yourself a ballet dancer or a content? Like, what do you consider yourself now?
SPEAKER_00I always say that because I'm always explaining it in Spanish, um, that my um my training was classical ballet.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was my training and the beginning of my career. Then I switched over. I was like, I had too much ass for classical ballet, so I switched over to contemporary. It's not a lie. It's not a lie. This tutu could not contain my ass. Um and then yeah, and then I and I and I say that my career for the most part was in contemporary. But you won't catch me going to take a contemporary class. When I go take class, it's ballet because I know it's what I can do with my with my injuries.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you're not trying to like prove anything now. Oh no, like I take class like a grandma. I take first position, I do balances for turns, and I don't jump. Like H it's like smart. Not trying to hurt myself anymore. Um, right. But but yeah, I guess yeah, I've I've just saved a more of a contemporary dancer.
SPEAKER_01So with the body stuff, do you think that now while we are in in theory trying to change the ways of ballet, do you think it's better? Would you rather somebody say something to you at a young age, like what was said, or would you rather have just figured out yourself and looked around the room and been like, okay, I don't fit in, I'm not getting the roles. Would you rather have that? What's the better way to navigate it? Because at what point is it okay to tell a child they're not the right look for this? And will they just figure it out?
SPEAKER_00I don't think they'll just fit, I don't think you'll just figure it out. I mean from my standpoint, I think it's it depending on how it's said, right? I do think it's beneficial to have someone uh tell you, you know, it if they were in a situation like mine where it was clear already at that age that this was gonna be my career. Yeah, if that is the path that you are going to take, then yes, you you need to know this is the world that you're going into. This is how they're gonna treat you if you look like this. If you don't want to do it, you don't feel comfortable, choose a different way. That's fine. Yeah, but the reality is that this world is like this, and this is what you're gonna face if you try to if you try to be in it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I kind of had this conversation the other day with somebody who um, you know, she's tall, she's thin, she's all the things. Somebody did tell her she needed to lose weight, and she said it was like in a good way, they gave her a nutritionist, they said, Here are your options, here's this, but she still, as a child, still went down the path of unhealthy dieting. So it's like you can have all these open doors and good conversations, but when you tell a kid they don't fit in this mold, they're going to take it upon themselves, most likely, to unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it takes it takes a lot of I think in that point, unfortunately, it would be a lot of um that parents have a big role. Yeah. In that can't just come from the teachers, yeah. You know, it needs to come from a helpful way of their support system and everybody kind of being Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which is why I love that um the Royal Ballet changed their age limit for boarding school because I didn't know that. Um I think that's right. I didn't know that either. Something I think they did something like that. They upped the age limit to like, I don't know, 15 or 16. So that they're more mature kids because I do think when you send them off to boarding school like that and there's no parents around, how do parents stay involved and monitor that can be so yeah, that can be even like 15 compared to 13. Yeah, I mean it's still a young, tender age, but um hopefully a little bit more mature than telling a 10-year-old that you're injured because you're too big. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_02Let's keep fighting for more inclusivity or just more spots for for everyone. And yeah, it but at the same time, there's that aesthetic too. So that's a hard right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, when we say everyone, we have to keep in mind that we don't mean everyone.
SPEAKER_02Everyone because it just doesn't work, so like everyone should dance, but not everyone should maybe get a paycheck.
SPEAKER_01Well, not every not everyone should be in ballet, yes, and you know, like you said, Jessica, you weren't built for ballet in for this time, so you went and found another dance career, and I would argue probably the most successful dance career of the ones of us that went forward. Yeah, you know, like look at our two prodigies, didn't really have a career at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00What happened to those girls? One went to ABT and the other one went to to uh City Valley. Uh-huh. And they were there and in the core for a while. Both of them they didn't go up from there.
SPEAKER_01And because, like I said, one of them I believe had an eating disorder her entire life. I think that kind of took her out. Yeah, yeah. Um, and the other one had injuries that went for years. Years, yeah. So you can do some real damage. Um so everybody has their place in a way, and it's just not always gonna be ballet. And I think we're I think part of the world is trying to say it should be for everyone, and it's just not gonna be one. When you look back at our time with I Day and all of that, yeah. What do I think? Yeah, I mean, do you have good memories? Because you certainly had one.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's tough because I I'm actually I I haven't emailed her in a while, but I think I'm one of the few people that actually keeps contact with her. Um, you know, again, it's also how I how I kind of view um my experience with James. Like it's very much my personal experience, and it's not the same as yours, and it's not the same as other people that we've had in our in our classes. Um I don't know if if I had um a little bit of protection because my mom was around or if she just didn't have that relationship with me, or she didn't feel the need. I don't know. I don't know. But um aside from the weight stuff, which was never really done in a malicious way um towards me. Um and so funny. I'm like, I think I only got like one shoe thrown at me one time. I had a shoe thrown at me. So there were some tense moments, and but they were never with I don't think you nor I. It wasn't ever us. Um and yeah, things definitely kind of got blown out of proportion with like, you know, they were like she used to duct tape people's mouths shut. It was toe tape, it was toe tape that falls.
SPEAKER_01And again, and it was a joke as well. It was like a moment where we were like laughing. We all used to dance with our tongues out.
SPEAKER_02She wasn't like put her cigarette out on your no butt or something. No, no, never.
SPEAKER_00Um, but me and Jessica did have it.
SPEAKER_01We were pretty under the radar with all the like really bad stuff, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't, I didn't think we get we didn't get any of that. And it's hard because those old school teachers are the ones that have students in the best companies around the world. Like all of her students have gone on to, you know, they they all danced. Everybody, everybody got jobs, yeah. Our whole group went somewhere. Yeah, um, so yeah, she was hardcore and maybe was a little too rough. It made us cry sometimes, but um, I don't recall my training as a sad or or depressing or traumatic experience.
SPEAKER_01You also were way more involved in school.
SPEAKER_00I was. Uh and see, and I asked because I rememberity. I was listening to that, to that episode of your pod, and I was trying to remember if the reason I hadn't joined the the like the professional training program and like done the like no school or like just the few the zero period and half yeah, no one remembers. My mom's not around. My stepdad doesn't, he's 82, he doesn't remember if I always felt I always felt that your mom cared a lot about. I feel like it might have been her call.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that became you had to have a certain level of grades. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00No, yeah. I had to uh even though it was clear I was gonna pursue ballet, um, I had to get good grades. And you were a part of you were, I think you did like I came like some days that I could, and but I didn't I didn't do zero period and I didn't not go to to high school.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know I feel like you did it only because I remember we did pot of cot and you were there. I remember that too, and that was for that group of people. You were there when you could be, so you kind of like but you always that seems like a good balance, yeah. You always and you never did the begin the fall rep with the company that we know I didn't, I only did not cracker, which meant we had to miss a lot of the fall, yeah. So you had a better balance than the rest of us, and then again, you were out smoking cigarettes and like trying other things that were like unheard of.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, it's fine, it's fine. I'm 40, I'm almost 43 years old. It's fine. Everybody knows, everybody knows. Yeah, um, yeah, I think I it must have been my mom because Dean was like, I don't know, that was your mom, that was your mom's call.
SPEAKER_02Your mom says, Real quick, it makes me think of this topic, and Sarah texted me about the Timothy Chalamet thing. I just want to touch on it briefly and get your everybody was everyone's talking about it, everyone has their hot take or whatever. And like honestly, when you think about the state of the world, it's like who fucking cares? Like, whatever.
SPEAKER_01However, however, when you think on the state of the world, we do need art.
SPEAKER_02Like also. A couple things. I feel like what you touched on with like in Europe, opera and ballet seem to be much more widely accepted. Yes. Um, how do we incorporate that in into the states? Also, um, Timothy Chalamet, I learned this, and maybe everyone knows this.
SPEAKER_01His mom and sister ballet.
SPEAKER_02His grandmother danced for New York City ballet, his mother danced for New York City Ballet.
SPEAKER_01His mom and sister trained at SAB. I don't know if they actually but they are classically trained.
SPEAKER_02And those words came out of his mouth. So I it's almost like a Braddy, it's like, oh, I don't. He's he was so he was so immersed in it, it seems like he was his mom. How much of a mother that dances for New York City Ballet, or even like you're going to LaGuardia High School or whatever? Yeah. Like you can't be obtuse about the perfor performing art.
SPEAKER_01I don't, I mean, I think my honest opinion is that he doesn't actually mean that. And he was trying to say something spicy. Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah. And but I think that it's unfortunate that he said something spicy about an art form that is really hard to sell to the public, and we need all the support we can get. And like we posted Amy on our Instagram, I posted it for Urban Cadence, but that like it matters for kids. Yeah, yeah. Art matters for kids, it matters for our world. And this topic does matter in our political climate because we need these outlets for children and for other huge for everyone, for everyone. Great experience, great talent, great passion. And um, so I I don't believe he actually means that in the way that we and the whole world is like exploding about. But I really hope not. Yeah, but I think it's unfortunate for somebody in his power where he stands to say anything negative, but um also it does go back to the point of our doors have been closed for different body types, different genders, different races. We are not an open community, and we need to face that and we need to hold ourselves accountable for that. But we certainly don't need to put others down. Down, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know what? I think it's overall my take on this whole thing is that it's overall good for the art because it's bringing up all of this discussion. The backlash that he's received is kind of a lot, yeah, it seems like, but um, it's brought up this discussion and people are talking about it. Whereas so, like maybe someone that wouldn't be watching a you know some ballet on YouTube is like, right, I want to go look at that.
SPEAKER_01Or yeah, but do you feel there's a way to get more diversity, Jessica in our country?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, by by programs like what you're doing, you know? Yeah, or the problem is is that when there's funding cuts, that's always one of the first things to go, you know. Like I from what I remember of like when my my parents were teaching at Jeff, uh Jefferson Performing Arts High School, like it's not that anymore. I don't even think it has any of those programs anymore. And from at the time my parents were there, they would also that same program would feed into middle schools around Portland, and that's how middle schools got dance programs. And like, if the those funding, if that funding is cut, well then you can't it can't grow, we can't go any further.
SPEAKER_02But those that's why those those outreach programs are so important because to to kind of cut that elitist vibe that we that the the ballet world has. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, let's do a quick little ringing it. A dance step that still lives in your muscle memory, or your favorite dance step? Trappy. Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02I like it. What trappy's a good one? From a flex or a flex.
SPEAKER_01From a flex.
SPEAKER_02What I just thought of this one. What since you're a balancer, what position would you like most favorably balance in?
SPEAKER_00Arabesque or yeah, arabesque. Or I did a lot of Alessagon back in the day, too. Oh Daj was my jam. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Don't get me determined. Not like that. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I remember Wendy Whalen in class. She couldn't do a double pirouette for the life of her, but she's like one of my favorite dancers.
SPEAKER_01A piece of advice your mom or your dad gave you that sticks with you.
SPEAKER_00My mom always said, You're not gonna always love everything that you dance. At the end of the day, it's still your job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Some some days you don't like it. It's your job, yeah. Totally. You might not connect to it, but well, just like for that choreographer that you said, like at that time you couldn't relate to leaving children, but you could relate in another way. So finding a different way to relate to something, yeah.
SPEAKER_02What's a smell that instantly takes you back? Marley.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Marley? Yeah, I don't know. I'd rather not stinky feet.
SPEAKER_01What's the first costume you remember loving? Oh my god, I just thought of one.
SPEAKER_00A costume? Yeah, I know which one you're gonna say. The Bon Bonds.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I was gonna say the poppies.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow, you really took it with that one. Oh my god. That's your dad's poppy. My dad did when he was the director of the school, he did uh The Wizard of Oz. And we were both poppies, and it was literally like uh head, foot, and hand covered green unit and your face was the center of the poppy, and it had big yellow petals like coming out from all that.
SPEAKER_01We were adorable.
SPEAKER_02What um I just just popped up in my head. Uh, if you say you're you could do whatever piece you wanted to do, your body's fine, you don't have to worry about your knees or anything. Would you lean more towards a classical ballet, or would you lean more towards a contemporary piece?
SPEAKER_00To to dance myself. Yeah. Oh man, that's tough. That's tough because maybe it depends on the day. It depends on the day, you know. Um yeah, that's tough. Cause I think going into the contemporary world, like it just like like the doors just opened into like a whole nother world. Because there's all, you know, you have all like the NDTista, the Jiddy Keeling, the Nato Duato, and all that stuff, who's from Valencia, by the way. I've actually seen him a couple of times. Um and and those people are freaking, you know, and oh, and those those people are like beasts. You know. But at the same time, but I have the exact same feeling. I don't know how many times I've seen Giselle or or Swan Lake, and I will because those big story ballets don't really come to Valencia, they'll go to New York to Madrid. But sometimes they do like a royal ballet um on the big screen at the movie, and I will take myself by myself to the movies and sit through that three-hour ballet, and I love that, you know. So I don't know. I don't know that I'd be able to choose. Yeah, they're both great and their own things. Oh, you guys, this is so much fun.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for 40 years.
SPEAKER_01Yay, 40 years.
SPEAKER_00We're fine, guys. Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_01Look at us, three girls in the wings. Three gals in the wings.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Point. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe and share this podcast with a friend who loves ballet or just loves a good story.
SPEAKER_01Got questions, comments, or topics you'd like us to cover? Connect with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod.
SPEAKER_02Beyond the Point is produced and edited by Christopher Gallant with additional editing by Sarah Furman. We'll see you next time, Waiting in the Wings.