The Meandering Artist

It’s just us this week, your two gals in the wings.

After two weeks of having our best friends on, we’re back to a casual catch-up—just chatting about life, dance, and everything in between. We get into some very real (and slightly embarrassing) stories about falling on stage, and talk honestly about how weird it is trying to figure out what’s next after retirement.

No big plan, no perfect answers—just us figuring it out as we go.

Thanks for hanging out with us on Beyond the Pointe.
If you loved this episode, share it, tag us, and tell us what you want to hear next @beyond_the_pointe_pod
We’re two girls waiting in the wings — and we’re so glad you’re here. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beyond the Point, two girls waiting in the wings. We're your hosts, Sarah and Amy, former professional dancers, and we're pulling back the curtain on the real ballet world.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

From body image and relationships to money, mental health, and life after the stage. No topic is off limits.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Whether you're a dancer, a retired bunhead, a parent, a student, or simply curious about what really happens behind the scenes, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Follow along with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod to share your questions, comments, and episode ideas. Now, let's step beyond the point shoes and into the stories that shaped us. It's just the two of us. Just us.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Back in it. Um welcome. Yeah, it's just your two gals back together again. I kind of missed just you and I.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I know. I felt well, especially because we've gone down to every other week. Yes. So besides so that we don't get to see each other and talk all the time. And then we've had guests the last two times. So yeah, I'm kind of excited for a one-on-one chat today. Just a catch-up. This is like a catch-up ep. A catch-up, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

And we haven't seen each other in person in Las Vegas or anything. Yeah. It was really cool to have our like best friends episodes in March. That was really, that was really fun and really like eye-opening. And I loved I loved doing that. Um, but yeah, we had to talk about Jessica and Sally. We didn't even get to talk about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

It's been a really long time since I've gotten to indulge about myself. And ooh, I'm Jones in.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

You must have so much to say about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I've been keeping it pent up, but boy, do I have some things to talk about myself? Anyway. Anywho. Um, well, I think Jessica, well, I think it was what's cool about having Jessica and Sally was that they both took really different paths in dance, but both trained in ballet, but found their own way in it. And I think it's just like two more examples to people that one you're not pigeonholed into ballet, but also ballet prepares you for so much out there.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Totally. Yeah, and it's interesting, they both of them in their younger years were such like ballerinas, and they ended up going not such a classical ballet route in the end. Yeah, but yeah, both of their stories are just inspiring and just really interesting. So that thanks again for both of those gals for being on.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

That's a conversation about structure versus freedom. From they came from this really structured environment and then they had a little more freedom. Certainly, well, I was gonna say Sally more so just because she wasn't in dance, but that's not totally true, just because I think the cheerleading was really structured on what they could and couldn't do and how they had to look. But I think I don't think it's necessarily structure versus freedom, and I think it's structure creates freedom. Like when you come from a really structured place, you have the ability to be more free. Um, because you can always come back to that structure.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

But if you're always if you grow up in a place, right, and that's like all you know, then it's really hard to hone that in.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah. It's like having, it's like your home, you know, you're you have a solid foundation.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

It's your first position.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Right. It's like you know that if a tornado comes, you're still gonna have that basement foundation to like go back to and be like, I know this. This is this is home to me. Um yeah. I was just thinking Jessica um leaving Joffrey and going to Luna Negra, um, it seems like she really got to explore her artistry um in great depths there, which sounds really cool, especially like definitely in Ballet Hispanico. She's in Ballet Hispanico. Yeah. Yeah. And um it's interesting because Sally, uh now I feel like she in her 40s is exploring like choreography um to get that kind of that kind of artistic fulfillment. But in her in her younger years, uh the being a patriot cheerleader, like that does not give you any room for creativity. It's such the opposite. Yeah. And you're upholding the brand. So it's like even when you're not dancing or performing, you are still uh that is who you are, and you have to represent the brand always.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

And a brand that's way bigger than any of our that uh have more eyes on it than anything we've done.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. I wonder what percentage of the American population considers themselves professional ballet dancers. Tell me when to stop. Zero.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Not good at math.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

One you're just you can you can still be considered semi-pro because you still take class and nobody's paying me for that performing. I don't think about performing. Sure you do.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I think about more so you performing. Even more so after watching Ruby's. Oh yeah. Um so I we've done Ruby's, I've done Ruby's twice. We did Rubies twice together. I don't know how many other times you did it.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Just the just those two times.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah. Um, and I didn't think anything of it at the time. Like you just learn your choreography and you do your choreography. That's what I remember about Rubies.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

You didn't think anything about the wacky Stravinsky music?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I mean, I guess I did, but it wasn't, it was just like another wacky thing you. I don't know. It just was like, here's another piece of your rep. And then, you know, like I can remember Barocco being like, oh, this is hard. Like, this is scary. I think it was really scary. Baroco really scared me, being like the front, you can't be like, so vulnerable. You're just like, here I am, like nothing. It's so right in your face. Whereas Ruby's like, because everybody's kind of doing something different, you know, somebody's going forward, somebody's going back.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Um, but you're in a slight jazz, it's not like turned out all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, you it's a little more fun. But so I don't remember thinking anything like that. But then when I watched it the other night, I was like, this is hard. Like, wow, they're doing that. And I was like, wow, I did that. Look at them go, and I did that too. I was on stage doing that, and it was kind of like a nice feeling because as I get older and like think of my age, I'm like, that was so long ago. It was so long ago that I was on stage dancing that, and I forget that I could do things, and like because now it's such a push to do anything, although I'm like way better at working out and doing all that, but that I forget that that was just like my daily life was to learn and do. And I'm even, you know, when people are like to actors, they're like, How did you learn all those lines? And actors are like, it's just like my job. Like, what do you mean? And and then people would say, Oh, how'd you learn all that choreography? And you're like, uh, we just like have rehearsals and you learn it in there, but they now I'm looking at people on stage being like, Whoa, they learned a lot of choreography. That must have taken up a lot of space in the old noggin. How do they do that? How do they get back and forth to the studio? Yeah. So I was like, Oh, I did that, and it's a hard ballet, and look at their doing that, and good on them.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Yeah, it's it's so true. Um, I think that when we're in that environment, it's just like every the bar is so much higher. There's not some some layman person in there doing it with you. Everyone is at a high caliber. So your baseline is that it's not your average Joe.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Um and then I came home and watched us do it because I have the video of it.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I want to watch that.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

It's it and we did pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah. I remember having like intrusive thoughts about the very opening of Ruby's. Um, because you know you're on point in fourth position and you're holding hands. And just like, what if I just like fell down? Like the very open.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Right as the curtain. You know, Ruby's is the only ballet that I fell on stage during a show. Oh, really? I do remember that happening. What part was that in? Oh, it's just like you walkity walkity. You were skipping around and just fell. The walks on point, you like walk. Yeah. And I remember Kaylin being next to me being like, popped right back up.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I remember her fall holding her hand in jungle and her falling down when we were holding hands. Like a big kick. But yeah, Ruby's is not, I think it's not that hard, like dance. Well, it is hard. That's the whole point of our conversation, I guess. It's super hard. But if you compare it to Baroco or like Donazetti variations, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

I don't remember Donna. See, that was a real blackout time. Yeah. I couldn't tell you anything about Donazetti except that I think we came in holding hands from stage left. Yes, that's correct. That's all that's literally the only thing I remember about that ballet because oh, I I did my little hop hop hop ouch. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Your foot thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah. Um, but that was a really tough time in the studio for just environment-wise. I think my brain closed down.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I don't blame you for shutting that that off.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

I couldn't what other ballets did we do at that time?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Did we do six? Oh. I can't remember. We had a last-minute rehearsal on stage for Donacetti variations, and he said to me, You just remember it was like a partner double pirouette to Erebest, Ponche down, double pirouette, Erebus, Ponche Down. And he was like, Amy, just remember what I told you in Equinox. And I was like, I wasn't I wasn't cast in Equinox.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

It's like the one thing that will get you through the show, like that one piece of advice, and you're like, What? Did he tell you what it was, or he just said, just remember?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I don't remember. I I think he said something, but I was so in my head, like if I keep practicing this, my muscle, like I'm just gonna be so burnt out for the show. Can I just like rest for a second?

SPEAKER_01 13:19

And I don't know. Um, but the oh, that was the other thing is the lead couple for Ruby's is really hard.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yes, yeah, for sure. And yeah, I'm sorry, I was talking about the core for Rubies. No, I think the soloist and like the tall girl and the couple, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

So I was watching um the dancer do it the other day, and I love her. She's like maybe my favorite in the company right now, and she's so good. And I've been talking to her earlier in the week after class, just asking her how it was going. She's like, it's so hard. Like Ruby's, I'm dying. She's like, by the if it wasn't for that first section, like I would be fine, but that I'm just dying. So I was watching her knowing how she was feeling. Yeah, but she did not give it away one second. She just was like easy breezy breathing. Like there wasn't a huff or a puff or a sigh or a anything. Like anything. Not at all. Not even, I don't even think she was sweating. And so I was in my workout class the other day, and I've switched to I went from three pounds and five pounds to five pounds and eight pounds. Wow, hot off the press. Yeah. So we were doing something, and you know, my lady loves her like four-minute triceps, and she like loves those arms that never quit. Yeah. So we were kind of in the middle of that, and I was dying, and I was like, I can't, I can't do it. And then I was like thinking of this dancer in my head, like, what would she do? What would she look like? And I was like, there was a time that I would have like powered through that ballet with a face on, like she had, and um grit your teeth and bear it. That was my motivation to keep going.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

That's that's inspiring. Those eight-pounders, just like actually, when I hear a good song come on, or even change of song at Orange Theory and I'm running, I will like outwardly put a smile on my face, like a weirdo, like a creepy person. And it like makes my it's like gets me pumped up more. Yeah, the music makes a big difference for sure, for sure, and internally how you process that um the music and how you're feeling in that the mind is so powerful, like yeah, because you can you can also be so defeatist too, and with dancing, like you can be in the middle of a patuda or a solo or anything and just be like so negative on yourself, and it will not only can it show on your expression, but definitely make your dancing not as good or powerful.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I mean, well, this dancer also fell at the end, and I was like, she just done all the hard stuff, all the hard stuff, and then it was just like a slip of the foot, like it was just so dumb, yeah, you know, nothing that she could have done better. Um, but it was she was right in the front. Luckily, everybody was on stage, so Nephi didn't even see it, but I had my hand was on his arm, and when she went down, I went and I like grabbed him and he was like, What? Um but she popped back up, but again, no visual anything. I know she was probably very upset about it later, but um did not let that I know did not let that deter her at all. And it didn't take away from anything she had already done. Like it was like yeah, it you know, it wasn't on a hard thing, so it wasn't like she lacked technique or anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

It was just a dumb stage thing, right? Uh, and at least there were other people on stage that kind of like distracting, it wasn't so in your face. Yeah. Because um that can be just embarrassing. I hope audience members like don't take that kind of fall as a slight against the dancer, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Like I I can't imagine they would, but I I don't know. I mean, I if I'm watching somebody and they fall off point, I'm more judgmental about that than I am if they fall on their face.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Because I feel like a fall on the face often is just like a slip of the Marley or a Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

And I feel like also, um, I mean, maybe this is uh controversial, but I think it's a sign too, or can be a sign of really like pushing your boundaries. Like if you're really going for it, if you're really traveling, if you're really like pushing the envelope, then you know, sometimes you slip or whatever. So I don't know, there's something bold about going for it too. Yeah, falls don't bother me. Falls happen. I wonder if anyone listening has had an injury on stage. Cause like, what do you do if you straight up did James Terra's uh or his ruptured as Achilles or something on stage? Yeah, but the he fell down and the curtain had to fall to close.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

It was like, never mind. He was also like much older, like he should not have been, he came back from the state. Nope. Yeah. Um, but actually, I was watching a video on Instagram yesterday of from the of the artistic director of the Australian ballet, David something. And he's American. And he was adult. Just kidding. I don't know. No, but it it's something with an H, I think though. But he was with ABT, I think, and he had been asked to join The Bullshoy, which is like the first American to ever be offered a contract.

unknown 19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

And he was doing Sleeping Beauty with them. He got a principal position with the Bolshoi, first American ever, and was doing Sleeping Beauty with them, and it was being televised. So everybody in America was watching, and so it was a really big deal. And he knew he had to like perform. And on his second jump in his variation or something, he sprained his ankle.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

And they were showing the video, and there wasn't one moment that you would know he sprained his ankle, really. He just did his menage and he did all the things, and because he knew he's like my country, whatever. Yeah. Wow. When was that? Like more recently? Long time ago, I think. Because he's been in Australia a while. Not that long, but alone.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh, that's good. I guess also you're just I'm sure a bunch of just blood goes to that area to protect it, and your adrenaline is going. Yeah. You're just like, this is I'm gonna make it happen. And then I'm sure after when he got off stage, then like I wonder if he even felt it.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

He's just like, yeah, okay, I'm just gonna keep going. Probably after a while. Do you think ballet sets you up for one kind of life?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

You know what? I used to think that. I think I used to think uh that I would be a ballet dancer. That's my that would be my identity, and that would kind I would build on that for the rest of my life. And I am not I wasn't sure what what would be after I like stopped dancing, but I I I don't I don't think I believe that necessarily anymore. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

What do you think? For one, I think Ballet sets you up for as we've talked about, everybody knows you have discipline, you have drive, you have things that are hireable. In you for other things, maybe perfectionism or attention to detail, it sets you up to use those skills in other manners. So I think in a lot of ways it just like I think if you if you're really profit what's the word proficient at ballet? Pro ballet really proficient at ballet, I think you are more likely to be really good at other genres of dance. And same if you're really proficient in ballet, I think you're set up to do a lot of other careers. But I also think we are so insecure maybe because we think we can only do this one thing and we've only used it in the studio. So we're not sure how those skills can be used to transfer out into the real world. So we're scared to try any of that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Um I was just thinking when you were talking, like um being pigeon or I think it also depends if you're working with a wide variety of choreographers or choreography, because that will expand your mind and the way that you process moves and steps. And you kind of have to adapt. If you're just doing one like style, yeah, then it might be a lot harder to get out of your head and yeah, I think that's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

But totally.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I think you're gonna be more willing to go try different things in the world if you've had those experiences with different choreographers and yeah, and if you have had the feeling of discomfort and une unsettled or unease, like this doesn't I I don't know what you're doing. Like when Jessica was like they had to either improv or just or do some like floor work and she just walked across. It's like it's okay though, it's okay to feel uncomfortable, and that's when that's when the growth happens. So yeah, um, I was just thinking um about like a transferable skill that all dancers I would think have that I I've been thinking about is like our energy. This is kind of a little woo-woo, but like I'm still it's like where your energy is going. So whether it be um like driving, you know, I feel like I can be a little more seamless of a driver. That's so weird. But um, or like uh, okay, for instance, last night, so Joe, my daughter Joe, she is on the top bunk of their bunk bed, and I go up there, there's a ladder, I climb up. It's for like little people too, climb up, I like lie down with her, and she's falls asleep, and then I I carefully like get out. And I am always so proud of myself getting out of the bed because I'm so like nimble and like very calculated on how I like roll through my feet going down the because she's such a light sleeper, like I'll be like, eh, and she's like, mom, come back. Like, god damn it.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Um, yeah, I totally agree with that. And actually, I feel the same in like my workout class. Um uh I was gonna say this related to Sally as well, but um, but like I always end up I I tend to have the spot that's like the stage left front corner. I just pictured you like saying to someone, someone's like standing there, and you're like, sorry, I'm always stage left at you have to Well, we have a sign spot, so you sign up for your spot, and I always end up in this one spot, and which is the front row, and so I can only see the instructor out of my peripheral vision. So I just listen most of the time. But once we're doing something and it's like on the music, I like to be with her, yeah, yeah. And on her timing, especially in the front row. I don't want to be like the one person off, and then people are you have an obligation in the front row. Yeah, yeah, there is. Um, so but I can always see her peripherally, and I keep my head forward and I'm like, oh, I'm being such a core member right now by like keeping my eye on her. But then today I was next to somebody who I don't know if she's taken that class before. She was in the front row, so it is a difficult spot to be in. And the teacher does everything facing the uh audio, the the class, the class, and she'll not so she's going to the back of our mat her mat, we're going to the front of our mat. So you're mirroring her. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But this woman couldn't get that. So I was thinking of Sally talking the other day about how, yeah, she just like it was the first time she realized people just like don't get it. And um, I mean, I've learned that a lot over the years of teaching of like people don't get it, but it is definitely in a group exercise class where you really don't have dancers who are aware, spatially aware, or just any awareness of their body. Right. It's amazing how they can't just figure out that she's going to her right, but we're going to our left. Yeah. Did she realize that something was off or um after this whole flow sequence, she did it the opposite way, but then you have to end up down in your um down in your upward dog facing the front of the room. And had she followed through with it, she would have been facing everybody behind her. Um, so then she like had to quickly fix it. But really, she struggled with the opposite. And I was like, Yowzers.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I wonder what was going on in her head.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Well, that's what I always wonder too of like, are you aware?

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah. Because I know with teaching colades, there's there's some people that just oblivious, like total oblivious, and they don't, it's like not a big deal to them. Like they just and then there's other people that are oblivious and know they're oblivious, and they like want to figure it out, but it's really challenging for them, yeah, too, which I totally I kind of can understand that more because it's like I know this is wrong, but my brain is not like processing this correctly. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

And I know as a teacher, you can say right leg forward, leg closest to the gray, wall forward. You can say all these things, and you're still staring at people just not listening or doing it, and you're like, huh. Yeah. So yeah, I agree with that. I I think even grocery shopping, I can like navigate really well because I'm like, I know to pause, I know to look, I can see out of 10 eyes around my head where everybody is, and I calculate that with their carts and their this.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

It's like having like spidey senses. It's like you know, yeah. Yeah. I I definitely attribute that to ballet and like core work for sure. That peripheral.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

I do too, but then it like it also it's like a great skill, but it's also a maddening one to have when most of the world doesn't have that. Doesn't operate like that, yeah. So even again at the gym today, I was walking somewhere to the dressing room or something, and somebody was in front of me, and it was kind of a like, oh, if I went around, I'd be kind of like yeah, you had to kind of like follow the line of people, but she was going so slowly and just unaware that somebody was behind her. Because if I felt somebody behind me, I would quicken my pace a bit. Or if you're maybe that's like scooch over, yeah, and maybe that's like the people pleaser in me as well of like don't want to put anybody out. Yeah. But and that's probably comes from ballet as well. And then I got this is just a side note, but then I got into the locker room and they're half lockers. And I had my stuff on the bottom locker, and this woman was getting her stuff out of the top, but she was looking at her phone, standing right in front of it, and she just kind of had her head in the locker, looking at her phone. So I just stood there.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

She was totally naked too, wasn't she? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

She was fully she was fully clothed, but even more so, I'm like, just gather your things and get out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Again, like, even though even when somebody isn't there in the locker room, I know that it's a busy, so I just like grab my stuff, get it as tidy as possible, change my clothes, and like get out of there. I never hang because it's busy.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Just oblivion is it's like going to New York City and going into Times Square and trying to walk in Times Square when there's like tourists just stare, like staring at things and looking up, and you're like, But I'm like, with that, it's like, well, that's a tourist place.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

True. You know, I'm more forgiving than when you're at the gym just on your phone in the middle of the hallway.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

But I did just think of my dad, who was not a dancer in any way, um, and he really uh instilled this idea of like, say you're at the airport on an escalator, and then you get off that escalator, you you keep walking, you know, you keep walking, get out of the way. Or if you're in the a line, you know, you're just like constantly aware of your surroundings, you're aware of people around you, and so yeah, hopefully you don't have to uh be a ballet dancer to just to like understand common courtesy, but I don't know. The phones put in a whole new level of all of that for sure. So going to like we do all these as dancers really hard things, and we just do them because that's our job, and we don't like well, of course, we can complain till the cows come home, but we do, we do the work. Um and uh just talking about like anore ignoring physical pain, um, of course, we have plenty of like stories about that, but I'm wondering for you, um what did you have to push through or push aside mentally or or did you um in your career? Like the you know, you'd be like, oh my legs are so tired, or like my hip hurts, or whatever, and you just push through, but your mental load, like what did you have to be like compartmentalize or I don't think I do realized I was, but I think now, like we said, now that we've cracked open some things, I've realized that I I blacked out, but I didn't like purposely block out.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

I wonder what was like going on in your head.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Because also for the listeners and Sarah as a dancer in the studio, like I would describe you as um what's like like you would be that's a really nice way of saying that. No, like you'd be really good in like the military, like of because you did it. You didn't bitch and complain, you did it superior very well, uh superiority super duper dastic. Well to put it technically, put it technically, no, but you always just were hit the marks, uh hit that mark every time and were look reliable and top notch. And um I just I don't relate to that as much just because I think as a person I'm a little more like up and down y and Piscean and like kind of watery and like whoa. Uh so I know I had like a lot of thoughts and feelings flying around in in the old noggin. Well Yeah, I don't think I had thoughts and feelings.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

I think I think you have to put thoughts and feelings aside. I don't think you have to, I don't think this is the right way to do it by any means, but I think my coping mechanism was to put thoughts and feelings aside and just do the work, just get to the mark, just do the step, um with no thought about anything else, because I don't think I would have survived so long in that environment if I was thinking and feeling. Yeah. I think I was in a way numb in the studio. I could un-numb. I mean, I had a life. I yeah, you know, I went out and I did stuff. Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

It was like you're on the clock and off the clock. You weren't like there were because there are some dancers that are that just that is the life, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yeah. And I wouldn't consider myself that at all. Yeah, I think you always had a good healthy balance. Um, but yeah, and it was definitely not something I thought of, but again, being conditioned pretty early to not think or feel that I just survived. I was in survival mode and um blacked out for most of it. You just like dissociated.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

But then I wonder what happens when an a role calls for some artistic freedom.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Again, it's not like I don't have feelings. Like I turned my I turned a part of my brain off so that I could survive the days in the studio, but I was able to like have feelings and emotions outside of the studio. So I think you know, if a role called for it, I could pull it in and bring it in. I wasn't dead inside, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

It's almost like there's dials, and you go into the studio and you turn down your emotion dial to be able to like do this, and then if it calls for it.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Doing for me, doing the work was 500% of my life. Like that was it. And so if playing this role, dancing this role or being this part, that's part of the work. So I would figure out how to do that, you know, fully, not just technically or something.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Do you think that messed with you long term, like now, present day?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Very, very well adjusted.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Well, because I think about that with myself a lot of times, especially these days, um, you know, just trying to better myself and all this. And like I and work doing like shadow work, like really seeing yourself for who you are, the goods and the bads, and taking the bads just as much as the goods. And um, but I think our self-awareness, it's almost like it backfires, or at least I feel like that sometimes. Like I I know dancing has played such a big role in that. My self-awareness and how how I am, how I how I'm perceived by everyone else, um, what I look, yeah, like what I how I come off, and then I can alter or like change how I behave or act, or even take in information depending. And I'm like, what really? Like just to get to the true essence, I feel like it's so much harder because I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I mean, I think it's I I yeah, I I think we are similar in that that we're always trying to like learn about ourselves and better ourselves. And I think that is the the a good thing about us. I think what's frustrating is when other people in the world don't do that. Yeah. And that's where I'm like, but I'm spending all this time trying to like learn why I'm have these weird things about myself or why I react like this. And why aren't you doing that? Do something in my frustration. Yeah, yeah. My frustration a lot of times comes from that. But yeah, I think it I mean, I think it's like I think ignorance is bliss, as we all know. And I think for people like us that want to know so much about ourselves, it is a really can be a dark place to be sometimes and really hard place, but I like wouldn't want to not be there or not be bettering myself. So um, do I think ballet do I think all of that affected me? Yes, but I feel like I'm doing the work to like figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah, yeah. I know I feel like when a lot of when Sally was talking a few times, she was like, Well, at the time I wasn't thinking this or thinking anything really, but now in in retrospect, and I think that's a lot of what we're doing now is and I think that's just like age, too.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

You know, uh I don't think any 20-something year old really needs to be thinking about what or why they're doing something. I think enjoy what you're doing. You're gonna make a lot of mistakes, and you're gonna look back and be like, whoa, what a dum-dum. And I think that's fine. But I think if you're somebody in your 40s who's still living life like that, I'm disappointed in that person because now I feel like, okay, let's look back on how I reacted to situations and how they affected me. That was weird, and that did not make me feel good. And I don't want to be back in that place again. What do I need to do? How can I become a better, more like well-adjusted person so that this doesn't affect me? And have I figured it out? No, because will I ever figure it out? Who knows? No, no, no. But I was just talking about this the other day at lunch. It's I am disappointed in myself when I teach class and I allow somebody else's energy to affect my teaching class. Like, I know I can teach a class, but all of a sudden I feel like, oh, somebody didn't like that combination. I'm like second guessing everything I've ever done in my life. And I don't like that about me. That is not on that person for making me feel like that. That's something that I'm like, why am I so insecure in this environment? Why can't I feel this confidence?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Or you're or do you think it's just like maybe it's not that you're insecure? Maybe it's that about it, maybe it's like your self-awareness or your awareness of the entire entity of the room, you can feel that, and then that you let that affect you. So it's like, how do we cut that off?

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Because especially because we were just saying, like, one of our superpowers is feeling everybody's energy, but it's also really exhausting. Yes, if you feel difficult to feel everybody's energy, and I feel that way just being in this world right now. If you're somebody like us that isn't empath, empath, thank you, and has that awareness of people, then you feel like you weigh a million pounds.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

It's almost like you've gotta, there's this like uh sh or you shake like someone's aura like away from you or something, like you just try to like dust it off. Like, no, thank you. Not I'm not gonna absorb your energy. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

And I think that's what I did with James was I absorbed that energy for so many years. And you held it. Yeah, I held it inside me for so long, and it's finally like that energy is finally leaving, but um. But I'm just that's my coping. It's just like taking it all in. It was like you were uh his like Sherpa, you had like all of his baggage on your back, and you're like finally you're just like, no, I've put this shit down.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

This isn't mine to carry. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

There is a conversation that needs to be had for people who are thinking of retirement from ballet and think that they are going to have their next thing lined up. And I just have to tell you, you're not. Oh my gosh. Not.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

You're so right. And something just clicked for me. I was thinking about this could be not correct, but it also could be so correct. Is that like those people like um I won't the a guy you know that was visiting, um, feels kind of stuck stuck in that world, that ballet world, because that's all you know they know and that's safe for them. Is it kind of it's you know how you can make choices based on fear or based on love? And that feels so much to me like a decision based on fear. And I was so was the same way when I left Nevada Valley Theater. I was like, well, at least I'm in school and I'm getting and I'm Pilates certified. And so at least I got that when really that was just a facade that I was like, well, actually, I don't know what, but yeah, same. I mean, I went to I was enrolled in school like a year. Yeah, you're like, I'll be an interior designer.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah, yeah. Same. I mean, I think we put these safeguards in place, thinking like, okay, I'm gonna transition into this. But what I think people just don't understand and they won't understand until they go through it, is like you are not gonna replace what you've just done for 30 years of your life. Yeah. And that's okay. And maybe it's okay for the second part of your life to not be all consuming and be about one thing. Maybe it's okay for us to like lightly be in ballet, lightly be in this, dibble dabble over here. Dibble dabble here, dabble dabble there. Yeah, it's so true. But I think for people like us that are one-track minded, we cannot, and and we're we like to be artists. We're passionate people who are artists, and we need to feel and the mastery of it all.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Like we're not just we don't just do things like happen, just like we have to like master it and like know it.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Yeah, and it has to come from my soul. I can't just like go, I can't just like have a job, I have to like have a career, but yeah, that's not sustainable. And I think it's just it takes a long time to shake that off a bit, but um I think if you're staying in your career for longer than maybe is right because you're just trying to get that next thing, you're really just putting off the um the inevitable that you're going to have to figure out that you're not going to be as fulfilled as this career.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Nothing will ever feel the same. Nothing will ever, at least I feel like that. Nothing, and that's okay. It's okay that the there's not gonna be something in my life that hits that same wavelength of passion for for ballet. Um, yeah, even like I say wavelength because like obviously like my like my kids, I love them more than life itself, you know, like that's the kind of love and I've passion, I you know, passion for their lives and everything, and yeah, nothing will be on that same wavelength. But yeah, it's just it's not going to compare, but it's scary. Sometimes I'm like, maybe this second half of my career path is all just a transition, it's just a cot, it's just one big transition into who knows.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Like that's what I feel. I mean, for the past 13 years, I've done this into this and to this, and and I think for all those things that I was doing, I was like, okay, this has to stick. This has to be the thing. And then it wasn't. And now I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

And that didn't mean that you were lost. It didn't mean that you were lost and you didn't know what the hell was going on. Like, I think that we see, you know, not having, you know, right after high school, not having a plan of like what you're gonna major in in in college or what are you gonna do as like, oh, you're just off in no man's land now. But there's some things I think so beneficial about not know being in the uncertainty of it all.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yeah. And certainly if you're in a position that you can take your time, sure, you know, then take your time.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Yeah. And I mean, of course, we gotta pay the bills and you have to like make a paycheck.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Um Right, which is yeah, and I think always if anybody needs to fall, if any ballet dancer needs to fall back on someone, go get certified in yoga or Pilates or Gyro or that's gonna be a money maker.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

That is such a good cushion to have that you can because it's not a a whole lot of money. If you can just put up the money up front for your certification um and get that, you'll get a job fairly easily and it you can actually make some monetary.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

For a dancer to do that, and you can be making enough money to kind of like take a breath and you're still moving your body and all of that. I think that's would be my advice, but but also don't make that be your whole thing if that's not what you want to do. Right. You don't have to be a yoga teacher for the rest of your life. You want to do winging it? Just like we're winging our lives. Okay. Harder. Which is harder? Ballet training or life after ballet? Ballet training.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Wait, I don't know anymore. I don't know. I was blacked out the whole time. I think, well, I'm just thinking back to like so many hard classes and like I don't know what was.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Physically, obviously, physically ballet training. I think mentally life after ballet, because we actually have to think for ourselves. Okay. And like I said, I've never had to think for myself until I was on my own. So that's my answer.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

My answer is your answer too. Yeah. Okay. Did oh, this is a good one. Did ballet make you more confident or more insecure?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

It made me more confident in my earlier years before I got paid to dance. And then when I then when it was my job, I think that it made me less confident.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

I think the day-to-day made me insecure, but I think the overall made me confident. And even like looking again, watching Ruby's and being like, oh, I did that, that boosts my confidence and thinking I was capable of doing that. And I think I that was somewhere in me at all during that time that I was aware of being capable of something. But I think the day-to-day was very much like you're a dumb loser. Get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

That's my internal.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

You are a dumb loser. You are a dumb. That's a good point, though. Like, because I remember when I met Chris, that was so I was very proud. Like when you are around people that aren't dancers, like I remember being really proud that I was a ballet dancer. Like that that's really cool to say, you know, that's and it is, it's not easy. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Um, and it's why we put kids in things like this because it does boost confidence when you do something hard and realize you can do it. So I do believe it is confident boosting. Confidence boosting. Yeah. Could you do rubies today? Sure, yeah, I can do it. I let's do it. You want to see me do it.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Do a little bit of this, you do a little bit of like this. A little martini. Oh yeah. See me remember it. Ponies?

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Well, I just saw it. One, two, three. I I remembered it once I saw it, but um, I wouldn't have been able to tell you anything. As soon as the orchestra started, um, or the music started and the curtain was closed, like I couldn't have even told you how Ruby started. And then as soon as the music started, I was like, oh, like I got a little like woo little buzz. Remembering that.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say I if the music came on, I could do maybe like 50% of it in my like no, no, no. Sorry. I in my mind, the choreography. Yeah. No, I know, but that's still really impressive. Maybe. I don't know. Like something like Saranon. I know I could probably I could do Saranon.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

I I taught yesterday, and my the dog I used um was Saranon, and I could visualize like everything that was happening. But I've done Sarah on a few times. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

But Ruby's, yeah, I think I don't know. How would you be able to do it now? Would you be able to like yeah? I think I'm gonna go in this weekend and do it. You should.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

I'm a I'm a swing.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Yeah. No, I think that's probably a good idea. Just bring your big makeup box, your stage makeup.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Get your shoes, get your dirty out scrouches. Well, I don't know. I had to talk myself into doing like 30 seconds of weights and being like, just keep going. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

You're holding up your your little uh five-pound weights or your eight-pound weights, and you're like, you don't define me.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Okay, is it is it uncomfortable to not be working towards something?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Um I think I am working towards something right now because of my business. Like I'm currently like tomorrow, I'm going to this big convention tomorrow and Saturday. It's and it's all about psychedelics. And um uh it's it's really exciting because I think that's the kind of path I want to go towards. It's really up and coming, and like this Denver and Colorado in particular is such a great place to be right now. So like I do feel like I'm going towards something in that way, but I totally see what you're saying, and I remember being really scared about that.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Um yeah, I think it's kind of I yeah, I agree that it's a scary, it has been a scary place in the past, not working towards like a thing, but um now I find it a little refreshing. I'm finally getting into the refreshing part of it. I look at the young dancers who are just normal age dancers, but young people to me, but that's how old we were. And I think how blacked out I was that whole time and how I didn't like enjoy. I don't think I like really soaked it in and was like, I was just living life. I was living a normal life, and now and I wish I would have been more aware of what was going on or what I was doing, just to like be like, oh, this is really cool, or oh, I should get out of here sooner. Anything just like to stop and take a breath and like be still, just be still and like yeah, yeah, but never did I do that. So now I feel like I'm trying to do that more because I have a really, really lovely situation in life, and I don't want to ruin it by being like, but I need a passion, but I need a project, but I need things, yeah, not things, I need a thing, a thing to be focused on, or almost like I need a thing to be like worried about, or I need a thing to be up on, I need a thing to like dramatize more. Yeah, exactly. Because I've always we live on a little out of control, yeah. We lived on drama for so long, and now I just I want to enjoy, and even teaching was so dramatic because dealing with children is dramatic every single day, and not having that in my life is like a way off. And so I'm like try I'm just now getting it. Yeah. Okay. One thing only dancers understand. I'm gonna say mine. Okay, left hand at the bar.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

That's good. I mean, maybe sometimes two hands. Sure. The beginning. Uh I was gonna say a funny one to how to hold your farts in during, like, I don't know, petilla and grow, but I don't think I actually do know how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

I mean, do you need to? You're moving. You can just blame somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

If the music, if there's other enough people around and the music is on, just let her rip.

unknown 58:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Well, I think navigating the grocery store.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Definitely the grocery store, the driving.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

The although I've driven with you and it wasn't pretty. All right. Well, this was so much fun. Get out of here, you dumb loser. Hey, don't forget. You're just a big dumb loser. Big dumb loser who doesn't belong here. Never forget.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

We're we're your two girls waiting in the wings.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

That's we're just here whispering in the wings. Dumb loser.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

We are all big dumb losers together in the most beautiful way.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

But we we are uh here in your wings. We're here for you. Dibby dabba dibley dabbling and dibble dabble all around this week.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Do a little dibble and do a little dabble and think of us. Bye, love you. All right, bye. You are the wind beneath my wing. Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Point. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe and share this podcast with a friend who loves ballet or just loves a good story.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Got questions, comments, or topics you'd like us to cover, connect with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Beyond the Point is produced and edited by Christopher Gallant with additional editing by Sarah Furman. We'll see you next time, Waiting in the Wings.