The Identity Artist

The people pleaser.The perfectionist.The “mean girl.”
This week, we break down the personalities we developed just to survive intense training, tough coaching and growing up in the 90s—and how those same traits show up in our adult lives.
What once helped us succeed… might now be holding us back.
If you grew up in a high-pressure environment, this one’s for you.

Thanks for hanging out with us on Beyond the Pointe.
If you loved this episode, share it, tag us, and tell us what you want to hear next @beyond_the_pointe_pod
We’re two girls waiting in the wings — and we’re so glad you’re here. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Beyond the Point, two girls waiting in the wings. We're your hosts, Sarah and Amy, former professional dancers, and we're pulling back the curtain on the real ballet world.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

From body image and relationships to money, mental health, and life after the stage. No topic is off limits.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Whether you're a dancer, a retired bunhead, a parent, a student, or simply curious about what really happens behind the scenes, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Follow along with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod to share your questions, comments, and episode ideas. Now, let's step beyond the point shoes and into the stories that shaped us.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

It's a freshy episode of our sweet little podcast Beyond the Point.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Homegrown. Homegrown. Our homegrown podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

That's true. And you're in Portland. I mean, you're in Oregon and I'm in Colorado. That's real like homegrown-y type vibes. Very homegrown. Yeah. So today we're diving into kind of like this idea that as children, especially as children growing up in a competitive, appearance-focused, approval-driven environment, uh, we adapt in ways that help us at the time like survive, but then ultimately can hurt us. And um what are some common survival roles that we that kids kind of fall into? Um, so it'd be nice. Um you can follow along and kind of in your mind figure out what kind of kid you were, how you coped, and how you cope net the ramifications now, I guess. Um I'm really interested to hear what you have to say, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I feel like mine, I don't feel like we'll have any surprises with mine, but yeah, I don't think there's gonna be any massive surprises. And we're not diagnosing anyone.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, let's remind the audience that we are definitely not diagnosing anyone. This is just kind of food for thought, honestly. Something to chew on, something to think about. We really don't know what we're talking about. Chew the fat.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

We're just chewing the fat. We're just chewing it.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Okay, should we dive into like some of these roles? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

And I feel like there's a lot of overlap too with these.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, yeah. I I kind of I feel like I straddle between two. Okay. Wait, I'm gonna guess which two as we go through. Okay. Okay, and I I'm gonna guess for you too. Well, I okay, yeah, you guys. I have okay. You wanna say now? Do you wanna yeah, okay. I'll say what I think for you. Okay, you're the perfectionist, um, but also sometimes maybe straddles to the invisible kid because you just wanna like not oh like have an issue, like you don't want to be the kid with the issue or the problem, or you wanna but yeah, I would call you the perfectionist.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I feel okay, let's read them. Let's go through yeah, okay. So the first is the people pleaser, and that person learns that approval equals safety, being easy equals valued, and needs to create risk.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, and like just I I relate to this a lot. Um it's like so sweet, so nice, so well behaved. That's what I kind of see. That's that's what I feel like.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I I mean, okay, you said sweet and nice, and I don't think that necessarily, but I feel like I definitely feel like I have the people pleaser in me too. Okay, adult outcomes of if you learned those things, if you learned approval equals safety, being easy equals valued, then the adult outcomes are that you have poor boundaries, you have burnout, you have fear of conflict, and you have identity confusion. What do you think identity confusion? Because you're always trying to like chameleon to the person you're with.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah, yeah. I think I can relate to that a lot because I I'm just now like trying like getting steering away from that. I feel like I'm always been really good at kind of going with the energy of the other person or like group of people and you're a go with the flow, which is easy. And if we're you know being polite and you know, pious and stuff, like I can be that. Or if we're being more rebellious, like I can be that too. And yeah, so it's like, what actually am I? Yeah, what do I? Yeah, you know, what who am I without anyone else influencing me?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

I feel like I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I have feel that, but I feel I guess a little bit the fear of conflict because as soon as conflict arises, I'm like, what did I do? What what did I do to mess this up? How do I fix this? Instead of just being like, I stand by what I said, or yeah, feeling like, oh, they're not happy.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Would you say that you struggle with boundaries, like having poor boundaries in order to like have someone, you know, be on your side?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Like um, I would say definitely not in the last like five years. I've probably like figured that out. And also being with a person whose boundaries are way broader than mine, um, that makes me really put up boundaries because I get protective of his boundaries. And um, and so I think that no, I think I'm quite the boundary person, maybe too much. Too much, but because my partner is very open to allowing people in.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, okay, and the idea of the people pleaser too. She she wasn't nice, she was trained to stay safe. Like she a people pleaser, you know, that's how she's gonna stay safe, is everyone's happy, everyone's good. I'm you know, I did my job here. I'm trying to let go of that whole facade and just be like, and I think it's a very off-putting to the people who have known me for longer that I'm not like as maybe bubbly and overly like are you not? I feel like you still are. Oh, well, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

See, I don't really know what animal.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Let's move on to the number two the bully, mean girl, enforcer learns that power protects, that you align with authority or you're targeted, and you attack before attacked. And it's often written in insecurity, fear, and scarcity. The adult outcomes are relational aggression, shallow self-worth, difficulty with intimacy. And uh yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I was just gonna say this this one's really interesting to me because I can't identify with it, but I would really like to hear someone's perspective on it.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

You're saying that I identify with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I don't think you are. I think that maybe when I first met you, I thought that's what you were for a bully.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

That's what I was gonna say is I feel like people would say this about me when I I yeah, so then it does make me kind of relate to it because people have said not that I have put it on. Yeah, not that I'm necessarily a yeah, a bully, but but I think going into the next one that we're going into, the perfectionist, you and also I guess like your feelings aren't mine to take care of too. And when I'm in my place of business that all I care about is business, then I don't take time to take care of other people's feelings in that, and I think that can rub people the wrong way and be like, oh god, she like really is it can come off me girl or that, and then again, we go back to me having dark hair and dark eyes and sharp features, and people look at me and they're like, Oh god, she's scary because I have like a pointed face and not blonde and blue, and yeah, so I and I do get all of that, and for and us, a lot of that does align with what I was told of like align with authority or be targeted. So if I didn't have James's back or believe in what believe what James was saying, then he was gonna come after me. So it was safer for me to be the one that was like, no guys, we don't need five minutes. No, why would you eat lunch? Yeah, like we're here to work. So I think I can relate to all those things. I wasn't putting glass in point shoes or doing anything like that, but I wasn't taking care of anybody either.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're a follow- you maybe more of the enforcer. Like, I could see you in that role. Like, okay, well, I'm gonna follow the rules, guys, because these are the rules, and yeah, this is what I was told I'm supposed to do. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really interesting. Um, but that being said, like the bully role, um kids that take that on in particular, or the mean girl role.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I would say my group of people in the school could probably have been looked at as a little bit of mean girl-ish. We were pretty in exclusionary, and I think that also stemmed from what our teachers were doing or saying. So, like, if we were the chosen group, then we were being told basically that those that couldn't do it as well were like not very smart or not very talented, or that yeah, it was like so. We again were like aligning with authority in that case, and I I definitely could see as um people in the school that we were not that nice, but I don't think we were like out of you guys were the top teen.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Right, but not you weren't going like sitting with the a lonesome kid, you know, to be like, hey, wanna come up? Yeah. Um, yeah, like almost like you're the top echelon, like you're the elite tier, and then um and and then that not just in like technique and in ballet, then that becomes in everything. Yeah. And or that's how you're seen maybe to others. Yeah. But um I like the this note though that like that does this doesn't mean that those people that might fall into that category are evil. They just adapted to that kind of ecosystem and it maybe in cruel ecosystem sometimes. Yeah. So it's like, well, I just kind of did what I had to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah. I mean, I don't like excuse the behavior, but I think that was just kind of I don't know, survival in our own way. We definitely could have been probably better, but also kids are shitty anyway.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

So the next one is the perfectionist. Um what we learn to flawless equals lovable, mistakes equal anger and humiliation, the adult outcomes, anxiety, procrastination, harsh inner critic, never enough feeling. Can you identify with those? I starred the last two. I was like, you're shit. Yeah, spot on.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I wonder why procrastination, but I definitely have procrastination.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Almost like you're a you're afraid to do it because you have to do it perfectly. You have to do it perfectly. So if you don't do it, then you don't have to tackle it. Yeah, it's not like you're not gonna do it halfway. 100% me.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

And 100% me not trying new things because I don't want to not be excellent at it.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

It's so humbling being a beginner at something, and it it sucks not being good at stuff, especially when you're around people that are good at stuff. But I think that's all like ego driven. For sure. Yeah, I can relate to the perfectionist too. I can see you more so though, like you know, the flawless equals lovable, like just like you have no, there's nothing wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

There's no you're just all I've done all the things, I've done all the things that you said I needed to do. So and I have to. Yeah, I feel that way. I still do, I do that so much just um with things like building this house back together, was like everything has to be so perfect because if everything is perfectly in its place, then I can be yeah, like I can live the life that I want to live is that's in place.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Which makes sense. I feel like you know, if some if something's off, you know, then then you it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

So we this might come up later, I can't remember, but we were having people over the other day, and um one ended up coming early, and already Nephi tends to get in the shower when the time is that people are supposed to be arriving, but he actually got in at a normal time, however, somebody was coming early, and I was upstairs like chopping cheese or doing something and getting everything just chopping cheese and peeling grapes. And um I was getting like and he's just in the shower. And then I was like, I was like, wait, I invited these people over, like they're our friends, and everything doesn't have to be perfect for them to walk in the door. And if I if I'm so stressed about having these people over, then what's the fun? Why are we doing this? What am I trying to get out of this? Just to show them my perfect little togetherness, and or is it just to like have them over in there? You said that to yourself in real time. Yeah, in real time when I said that.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I feel like that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Because I was like, I was getting frustrated that Nephi was in the shower, although he fully was in the correct time and doing everything fine, but um, because I was hustling so much to get it done before our early friend showed up, I was getting mad at the level. Like, yeah, exactly. Why aren't you up here worrying? Which like he would never be worried about anything like that. So I'm like, also, why would I want to be upset with him for no reason? Why would I want to have this hangout stressful? That's not the point of any of this. So I calmed down a little bit, but I definitely mean I want I didn't want any trash from the cheeses out. I wanted everything away. I didn't want somebody showing up while I was preparing that just was like boiling my blood. I'm just like, how do I get it all done in time? You're just like so much trash that I couldn't put away.

unknown 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

It's the silliest thing, but like the anxiety in my stomach when that's happening is like you though.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

That's like really good of you to especially like being all by yourself, and you could so easily just like keep chopping and keep spiraling.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

But then yes, I did keep chopping, but I didn't keep spiraling. I I do the same thing. The invisible kid learns don't attract attention, stay small, stay safe. Adult outcomes, self. What's that? Erasure? Erasure.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Oh, like, oh, like self-erasure, like you're erase, like you erase yourself, like you take yourself out of the eraser. Like you're just like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

I think I don't know. Under-earning trouble advocating. See, I don't think I think being the invisible kid, I mean, I see what you're saying of like don't make waves, but I feel like being the invisible kid was like the mark of death.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Yeah, I guess in a way, because the yeah, adult outcomes that I don't see you at all in that. I guess it was more like don't be the one to fuck up.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

For sure. But I think that's the perfectionist still. Yeah, I feel like definitely not the invisible kid. And certainly still now, I still like I like to put on a show. To make an unchange.

unknown 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

But that's why I like everything perfect, because if people are looking at me, it better be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Better be perfect.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Oh, but the trouble advocating, I have another little side story this week that people might um relate to. I was asked to teach a um a day intensive this summer for a ballet. For it's not a ballet school, it's a competition school that does have ballet. But she was like, we just somebody gave me your number and we're we'd really like to have like some really good ballet part of this intensive. And I was like, Oh, for a day? Sure. Like a day, like intense intensive ballet, yeah. Okay. Yeah, so it's like three hours that day, three and a half hours. And then we're she was like, Okay, great, I'll send you the info as it gets closer. What's your hourly, by the way? So then I like start spiraling. But and I like had a number in, I know, and I had a number in mind, but then I asked a friend of mine who does a lot of teaching, and she's like out in the world now teaching in different places too. So I asked her what she says, and it was a lot higher than what I was going to say. And I sat with it for so long, being like, is this is this gonna make them angry? Is this gonna make them uncomfortable that I'm asking for this amount of money? I even got on Chat GPT to ask what the going rate in Portland was. Yeah. Yeah. And then Chat GPT kind of backed me up in that number. And um, so I like texted and said, Yeah. So I texted back and it was like, okay, great, sounds good. And my it's this for the for an intensive or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

So I kind of made it sound like wait, now I need to know how much it was.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Anyway, so I told her or I sent that, and then I didn't hear back the rest of the day. And I was like, okay, well, and also even when I was sending, I was like, who cares? Because I don't even need to go do this job.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Like my livelihood depends on this, and I've gonna Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

So if she's like, oh, sorry, that isn't in our budget, I could be like, okay, I understand.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Have a nice good.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, yeah. And so it was like no consequence either way, but me, I was just like, Oh, I can't do that. I don't want to make her feel badly or like or think too highly of myself, or be like, who do I think I am that I can offer or ask this much? And then she texts me back that night, great, can't we can do that? I'll send info.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

And I was like, This is the most amazing I've thought about texting you just now. And you're like all day like thinking about it.

unknown 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah. It's so dumb sometimes, but we I do the same thing with text messages and like making a Just a a small decision, you know. That's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Okay. Anyway. The rebel. All right. The rebel. The rebel. If I can't win, I'll reject the game. Do you know any? And then adult outcomes, authority issues, self-sabotage, but sometimes strongest identity later.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I feel like I wanted to be the like I I feel like the rebel was something that was really appealing to me to be, but I wasn't. I think I was too afraid.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Like in in life or in ballet specifically? Uh in more in life, not in ballet.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

In ballet. I mean, you did some rebellious things. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. But I definitely don't, I as a kid, like, if I can't win, I'll reject the game. Like, I did not, that's not how I operated at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And I also think that, and then I mean, I see that sometimes that person has the strongest identity later, but what have you missed out on?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

By having that mentality. I see kids with that a lot. Of it comes from the insecurity of like not being able to do something in ballet. And then they just quit or they move on or something. And that I find is okay. But what is Yeah, it's like, oh, you could have gotten so much like more out of the been a little more vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

The lack of vulnerability for the rebel is probably really harmful in the long run, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And the like strongest identity later kind of goes back to those people that are like, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. Yeah. Yeah. And just like, okay, well, leave it because you're dick. Yeah. I can't.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

But it's interesting because like the idea of like you're angry about something, you're still giving it energy, you're still giving it life. So instead of just being like, well, you know, to each their own, you know, you're just like, no, I'm gonna like, you know, fuck the system or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And you're like, yeah, yeah, so much of that. So much of that, of like, well, that's not the best way to bypass the system sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah. But it is definitely a coping, like that's you're gonna be in your little tin box, like you're you're good. But yeah, yeah, that's interesting. That's an interesting one, too. Okay, what actually happens in these environments? Oh, well, so I like this idea that two kids can survive the same environment in opposite ways. Um so for instance, you could be the compliant one, you could be the cruel one, the one who stars herself, the class clown, or the one who dissociates and excels. That's me. I brought the Sarah next to it. Like dissociates and excels. That's like that would be your like childhood tattoo. Like that's gonna be my memoir. Dissociated and excelling. See, mine I think was class clown because I'm just like, oh yeah, well, I'll be the funny one. Yeah, I can compensate for my lack, like what I lack in technique for like humor.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Well, you can also with the starving yourself too, you're also like, but isn't it it's like self-deprecating humor in a way of like um covering that part of you up with your humor and so much self-deprecating.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

I feel like that was such my armor, and almost like, well, you can't make fun of me if I make fun of myself first. Right. And I don't think anybody was gonna make fun of you, but I don't think you know, like it's like if you call it, if I call it out, then you're I don't know, that kind of idea. Well, I guess the idea of like there's it's two different, there are two different things how you appear and how you actually are feeling in on the in the inside, right? So you could appear confident and also feel really confident, or you could appear like you have your shit together and inside you're falling apart.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, I respect that because you know what I can't stand is people who don't have their shit together and show me that every single day. I uh can't stand the chaos of people who don't have their shit together. I need you to put on a brave face out in the world and then go take care of your messy come right, come back a little more.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

This question I think uh I wanted to ask you which traits helped you, but then might may have hurt you later? Like is there some dissociating and excelling? Do you think it it's hurt? Okay, yeah. Within now as an adult, dissociating and excelling in different aspects of your life could say like is hurtful or harmful or not beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

I don't think it's beneficial. I mean, I don't think I'm disassociating now, but I don't think I'm excelling in anything right now either. And so I feel like I disassociated and to excel for all those years, and now I yeah, like I just don't feel like I'm excelling at anything. I'm not putting myself out there in the same way to disassociate and excel, and maybe because the only way I know how to excel is to do something so intensely and disassociate that now I'm like, I don't know what to do with.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

I don't know. I mean, even the term excel, it's like, what is that? Do we have to excel all the time?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Can we just like be right, which we talked about a little bit last week, but um I think also I'm just like still in recovery from all of that disassociation and like trying to remember what my life was, and being in survival mode, yeah, and now like coming down and having a more maybe not perfect, I'm talking for myself, but like a more regulated nervous system than before exactly, yeah, exactly, and being comfortable with that regular and not having to jump off a bridge to feel something. Of course, I would never jump off a bridge because that's ridiculous. But essentially, we were jumping off a bridge every day we walked in the studio because we had no idea what was gonna happen. We were fully just up to the whim of who was in the front and who their mood.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

So I think being so immersed. It was like in it was everything, it was like our whole life. These lines that are actually really good, but they reminded me of um, you know, on the real housewives when they're like, I'm Samantha, this town couldn't handle me, so I went to, you know, like they have their old things. Yeah, some personalities are trauma responses with good PR. What looked like confidence was often for survival. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

I mean, yeah, I think the looks like confidence is just survival, is probably most people.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

And the idea that once you understand that it was adaptation and not identity, then change becomes possible. So we weren't those those weren't our that wasn't us. It just was the adaptation of us so we could survive, hopefully thrive and get somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

And um now on the other side, you know, finding a more true identity that I think that's why it's so hard for people to retire from the career because um, as we've said, it becomes your identity, and so we associate that with our personality, and then it shaped us into these people that were essentially just surviving, not particularly like growing our personality. So then you lose your job that you've done forever, and now you have to have a whole new personality.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, do you move forward with your life in the same with the same like code of conduct that you had in the studio for all these years?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Or do you you know adapt once again and figure out I'm trying to think if I know anybody that I knew in the studio that now is just like a totally different person.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Well, yeah, as a former peep the the people pleaser in you. You were gonna say former mean girl, but go ahead. No, I wasn't I wasn't. I was gonna say perfectionist, but we're not onto that yet. I really wasn't, but because I don't see you as a mean girl. I just see the enforcer hit the enforcer hits well for me. Like you as the enforcer, yeah. Um okay, but yes, this is the former people pleaser for sure. Um, keep everyone happy, avoid conflict, be agreeable. And then in adult friendships, it's like over you overgive, you but you resent silently, like you're silently resenting them. And then we know it. We talked about me doing that. Says yes when she means no, like attracts attracts dominant friends. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

See, I think that because I think that you're not giving yourself credit in being a people pleaser, no, in being a like dominant personality. Oh, I think I am. Yeah, I feel like you're not like a wallflower.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

No, I don't think so. I don't think I've ever been.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

No, I feel like you have opinions and you're you'll say them. I don't I feel like you're right up there with me of like, no, this is this is my feelings, and I want to talk about my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Everyone should shut up and listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

This is how I feel.

unknown 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Because I don't think that we would, because our I mean, I feel like we're equal in our friendship as opposed to one being like, okay, this is what we're doing, and then the other being like, oh god, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Like not a follower and then a leader. Yeah. Okay, who's the former mean girl? Uh social strategist. That's interesting. Okay, in childhood, so status means safety. So if you got like a high status, you're safe. Stay powerful or be excluded. So in adult friendships, this might show up as competitive energy, subtle undermining, which I think is that is a yeah, performs uh closeness, struggles with genuine vulnerability. Yeah, for sure. Like genuinely kind of opening up and showing your the side of you that you don't show to everyone.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Do you have any of those? I could see the subtle, not for you. I'm not talking about you, but the subtle undermining is an interesting one. And I kind of feel like that goes back a little bit to again growing up in the 90s, and that of another woman can't be up there with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

So there's always a little like, but she just so there's this idea of like female scarcity, so like, well, okay, yeah, and like manipulation. Um, but sometimes highly charming can be highly wounded. So like think about your most charming friend, and then like, ooh, they could have some cuts and scrapes going on deep down inside. Um, I can relate to that part, like being charming in order to like cover up, you know, the darkness. Um, okay, what about the perfectionist friend? This is a lot of you and I. Mostly you. Okay, you exceled to be valued, and then in adulthood, can you relate to any of these? Polished but guarded, hard time asking for help. Compares milestones, compares milestones silently. Uh, shame when struggling. Never heard of any of these things. Never not once thought about that. None of them. Not a once. I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to this one too.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Um, I don't know if this is under the umbrella of polished but guarded, but last week I said to Nephi, Well, what's with all the hugging of people these days? We were at the ballet. We went to the ballet, not this past weekend, but two weekends ago on a Saturday night, and then we had to go again Sunday afternoon for a different show. But it was all the same people. We had just seen these people on Friday night, and we had been there the week before, and we'd hugged all the same people. And Nephi is such a like, hey, did that? And he was so friendly and so, and then I go, and then I'm like, okay, I guess we're hugging. There's Nephi in her his beard going. Exactly. Now I'm the mean girl because I don't want to hug everybody every time I see them because I just saw them. And I just feel like hugging has gone out of control. I don't know how to pull it back, especially with it when I'm with Nephi who's like going to hug people, so it looks terrible. Yeah, I'm not, but oh, the hugging.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

The hugging is gonna mean my guard up.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Please, no touching. Like excessively. Like when I see you, I'll be like, oh, let's hug, because it's been a couple months since I've seen you. But every weekend when you see the same people, is that normal to be hugging all the time?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Oh my gosh, you're so not a hugger. And that's okay. I'm the opposite. Yeah, definitely one by one. I would, you know, although don't get me wrong, like if it's if there's a party, my I love an Irish goodbye. Like, I don't want to hug everyone. I don't even want to say goodbye to everyone. I just want to sneak out like no one saw me, and I don't have to like deal with it. So it is like, it's a lot going to hug a bunch of people. This is what I'm saying. So I see your point.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

You got a glass of wine in your hand, you got a something.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

It's just like, and then you're like, which arm do I put my arm up down? Or basically, it's like maybe which way does my cheek go? Am I getting makeup on there?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I would love, I would love to do the cheek kiss. I would so like a no hug cheek kiss by your side with a lean-in. You don't even have to touch cheeks, it's just the idea.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

So much cleaner. You can even do it from a bit of a distance, just like exactly when your feet still aren't like breathing on each other.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

The hug is like improv choreography.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Oh my god, that's such a good analogy.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

You don't know which way's who's going up, who's going down, who's going right, who's going left. You have a glass here, a glass there. And then you have four people. You have to cross, or do you do the double and go around? It's like a whole formation change then. Take a step.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

It's it's you're so spot on. Yeah. And then you don't even know like how to hug anymore.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

I don't know how to hug.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Um, okay, let's move on to the invisible girl. So in childhood, she stayed quiet, she doesn't make, she didn't make waves, and then in her adult friendships, this might feel like she's overlooked, waits to be invited to things, suppresses opinions. Um, friendships feel one-sided. Uh, if this is you, then you're you could be relating to this. I don't think Sarah and I really relate to this one.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

We don't, we definitely don't stay quiet.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

And we do make waves, I would say. We make so many waves. It's just a session up in here.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Sometimes I like that about myself, but I cannot keep quiet sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

I know I same, same. Okay, the rebel in childhood, she's rejecting systems before the system rejects her. Um, in adulthood, um, she can be skeptical of groups, avoids closeness, values freedom deeply, and can fears dependence.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

I mean, I yeah, I feel like a lot of people, but that also feels like maybe just talking about women.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think I feel like all women should have a little bit of rebel in their book.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

I think women should definitely fear dependence. Yeah. Um, okay, why former dancers especially feel this is well, we grew up in environments with where we compare we're compared with peers, female scarcity, only one. That one definitely is a big one, I think praise is conditional for sure, closeness and competition at the same time. That's hard. Body insecurity around other girls, authority rewarded over honesty.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Like, where does your um allegiance lie? The female scarcity thing, I think, hits hard for me uh like now as well. Just this idea of like, oh well, she's doing better than me. And like, I I still struggle with that. I've gotta be like, it's okay. Like, I I love to see women succeeding, and I uh I love to see friends succeeding, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

But it is it's hard to separate that with does that mean I'm not succeeding?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I I really struggle with that. Yeah, me too. Like still with and with the business and stuff, it's just like it's when I see other people like doing well in like the entrepreneurial world, I it makes me feel bad about myself. And it doesn't have to be that way. Like I can see people excelling and be like, oh, I am also doing well and I'm in my own like path. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I love this. Who were you in the dressing room? I think this is such a good segment. Um okay. So if you can describe who you were when you were dancing in the dressing room and who you are now in the dressing room.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

I was not um a dressing room was always fun for me. Like I just remember it always being treating leotards and yeah, like I would I don't remember being a stress case too much. You know, I wasn't somebody that like couldn't talk to people before a show or something. I like Krista always did my hair um in that drive, like in uh NBT days. Um yeah, I think I was like, I just remember dressing rooms being really fun. What do you yeah?

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Um I think that I was just Really insecure and had I feel like I was always unnecessarily, like not always, but a lot of times like unnecessarily stressed out and like frazzled. And um yeah, trying to use humor as a coping mechanism and just like not being grounded, I guess, essentially, like not feeling grounded. And um I I feel like I've worked on that a lot, and I feel like if I was in the dressing room now, I'd be so much more grounded and self-aware, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

I feel like the dressing room was where I would like have fun and get ready and joke around, and then but I'd always get backstage like 20 minutes before the show, and then that's when I had to like I had to get back there and like focus in. I could never have been going from dressing room to places and just like yeah, have that energy. I had to have the in-between focus time. Yeah, same. The dressing room is just always our place to have fun. Like from the when I was little, always I always loved going to the theater in the dressing room. And then you go backstage and you're like, put that face on, put that armor on. Associate and excel. Associate and excel.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

I mean, you got it, it was a great like uh coping skill though. I feel like you you picked a good one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

But I wish I had memories. I don't have any memories. Yeah, that's the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Maybe when you do your psychedelic trip with me, then we'll get that those memories out. Or maybe they best be buried.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Maybe I'm surviving now with buried memories. Um, all right. Winging it. Winging it. Um, let's see. Let's look at I put a lot of here. I do like these though. Did rules make you feel safe or trapped?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

I don't know. I I I think overall trapped, but also I can see safe too.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

I I feel like you would say safe, right? For sure. I love some rules. You gotta be here on this time, you gotta wear this outfit, you gotta have your hair like this, boom.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

No questions. Right, right, no questions asked, yeah. Um, did you want to fit in or stand out? Stand out.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Because I wanted to be the best one.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yeah, I I'd agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Um were you more scared of failure or rejection?

unknown 46:57

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Rejection, I think for me. I I think rejection feels so much. Well, if you get same, say you you you get a role or you get to chance to like run something in the studio and you just like don't do it that well. As opposed to never getting a chance to do the do the run. Yeah. You know, I think that hurts more than getting a chance and screwing it up.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah, because I guess it's like on you if you mess it up, then that's right. You were in control of that.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Whereas the rejection was just like just shutting down shutting someone down before they even get the chance to try. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Okay. What did success mean to you at 14? This is a good one because we were in such different places at 14, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Oh my gosh. At 14, you know, success meant being a principal at Nerd City Ballet, living in New York, basically just, I don't know, having like a bougie apartment, like on a high rise, and um, yeah, just like living on the upper west side, just dancing, living the dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

What about you? Um, it meant getting into the company right then because if you weren't 14 and getting in the company, you were a big, big, dumb loser. And yeah, just dancing the loser. Dancing in the company for James, being one of his proteges, like having him do a ballet for you that he um choreographed on you. That was like the goal, the end all. Spotlight or invisibility. Spotlight, baby. I know, yeah, definitely. Talent or confidence. Talent. It's hard. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

I feel like maybe confident.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

This is like I just love talent. I'm just so amazed. Like, I just love other people's talent. Like, I'm so amazed that people do things. Yeah, that's and I I'm so envious of that.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

I was gonna say, like, confidence, you can like you can be successful with confidence because like if you believe it, you know, it's you can be successful with talent.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Look at all the people around us. Yeah, that's true. The other day, I um I woke up on Sunday morning and I said, today's the day I'm gonna know how to sing. And I started to sing to day was the enough. And I was like, seriously, I was like, okay, like if I just focus enough, if I just think this enough, I can sing. And I started to sing to so bad. Really, I was really trying. You have a nice voice though.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

No, I but the idea of you like trying really hard makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

But then that was also making me laugh so much because I was really focusing on my wait, no, still me start again.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

That's what I was singing. It's my telepathy. I've been not trying to hone in my skills. That's what I was singing. Oh my god. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

That's pitchy, pitchy, pitchy.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

I'm not kidding. That's what I was that's crazy. It just popped into my head.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

That is so funny that you it felt good to sing, but it does feel good to sing, but why can't I do it? Why can't I just listen and do it? Take a voice lesson. I but I I wouldn't be good at it. Control or joy? Joy. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Always joy. For sure. Be joyful, be joyful, people, be joyful. Work on your singing. Um, you know, sometimes control can equal joy, sometimes. And let's circle back to this eventually, and then I'll give you a good performance. And I'll show you why talent is better than confidence. But if I had the confidence, I would just sing it and not give a shit what it sounded like.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

That's true. And if you didn't have any confidence, you might not ever sing your talented, beautiful little songbird song.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

All right. Well, we're just here singing little girls in the wings. On my own. Pretending he's beside me.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Oh, there's a little country flair to it.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Uh I'll walk with him till morning. I'm gonna cut out so much. As I was saying it, I was like, this is shit.

unknown 52:16

I know.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Yeah, I feel like I couldn't like finish a thought.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Yeah, I know. My articulation isn't there today. Yeah. And I'll just post us singing.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Just I really do like this whole like topic. It's just, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

People are also probably like, you guys said this already. We know that Sarah's an uptight mean girl bitch, and that Amy's a kookamacheo. We established our identities.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Here's us talking about ourselves some more. Okay, well, I love you.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

I mean, do you? I'll just judge you secretly because I'm a mean girl.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

You're an enforcer.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

I'm an enforcer of the mean girl squad.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Bye. Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Point. If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe and share this podcast with a friend who loves ballet or just loves a good story.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Got questions, comments, or topics you'd like us to cover? Connect with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Beyond the Point is produced and edited by Christopher Gallant with additional editing by Sarah Furman. We'll see you next time, Waiting in the Wings.