The Trailblazing Artist

This week we sat down with Charlene Hannibal, who grew up dancing at the School of OBT. We talk about the beauty of dance as a community—but also the harsh reality of how quickly that belonging can disappear when a director decides you no longer “fit” the look.

Charlene shares her experience navigating that loss and how it ultimately led her to create her own dance school—one built on strong training, support, and a commitment to nurturing young dancers as whole people, not just bodies on a stage.

Thanks for hanging out with us on Beyond the Pointe.
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We’re two girls waiting in the wings — and we’re so glad you’re here. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Beyond the Point. Two girls waiting in the wings. We're your hosts, Sarah and Amy, former professional dancers, and we're pulling back the curtain on the real ballet world.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

From body image and relationships to money, mental health, and life after the stage. No topic is off limits.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Whether you're a dancer, a retired bunhead, a parent, a student, or simply curious about what really happens behind the scenes, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Follow along with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod to share your questions, comments, and episode ideas. Now, let's step beyond the point shoes and into the stories that shaped us.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

We have a guest today. We are a group of three today, once again. We have Charlene Hannibal here today, and um her and I are meeting for the first time, which is cool. But Sarah and Char go back a long ways, right? Way back. Way back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah. We grew up at the School of Oregon Ballet Theater together. And yeah, that's that's the history.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Did you start when you were teeny tiny also?

SPEAKER_04 1:35

I did. I was, I'm trying to think. I came to OBT when I was five. It was Pacific Ballet Theater.

SPEAKER_06 1:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Um it wasn't in that building. And then I um I'm a little older than Sarah. And then I went to two years, I went to the dance shop in Beaverton. And so then my mom brought me to Pacific Ballet Theater. Um and I I freaked out. I was like seven, seven, and everyone looked so professional, and I like didn't know. And I like went there and all the girls were older than me, and they had perfect buns and like different leotards. And I essentially ran out of that basement, ran up the stairs, ran out into like almost traffic, and told my mom I wouldn't do that. So I did it with a dance shop another time. And then when I was in third grade, I finally went back to OBT or PBT.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

That's really intimidating. That must have been so intimidating, especially at such a young age. You're like, oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

My mom, my mom was like, You are good at this. You you should be in this level. And I'm like, they're all so old. I I am, I just I yeah, flipped out. And then I went back to my studio and then was really bored. So then I was like, okay, fine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

I feel like they misplaced you with a group that was too old.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Yeah, no, they did. And like then when I went there, fear of God in her. They did, they put the fear, and then I went, and then I went in third grade, and I I like wanted to be in the lowest level, which they put me in, and they kept trying to move me up.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

And I kept saying they wanted to stay in the low level. Like, I'm safe here, I really wanted to stay down.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

I like ma'am, you're 15.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

So like Sarah and I, we weren't like uh dancing in the same like class together until like more like high school and and then company time.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

So yeah, our experience once you get in those upper levels, then it gets a little more like everyone's broad merged because we're doing so much company work that we were always doing that together. And then we were apprentices together for a year.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Right on.

unknown 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah. Should we go into like okay? So what well, what were you like as a kid? It seems like you were a little hesitant to be like, you know, pick me, pick me. What's funny is that no, no one would ever describe me as hesitant ever.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

That's like kind of a one-off. Um, I was like as a kid as I am now, like hyper extroverted, a lot of energy. I like I want to be my hands and everything. Like, I wanted to do everything. I played sports, I did piano, I did ballet, I wanted to sing, I wanted to act, I wanted to, I mean, I like basically my mom would get so annoyed with me, but like I never wanted to sit still, I never wanted to stay home, I wanted to be at a friend's house or in an activity all the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

So she was like, we need to put this child into everything.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

But why do you think that ballet was the one that stuck when that's the one you have to be the most disciplined and quiet?

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah, it's funny because I think discipline wasn't an issue. It was more like I think it had that perfect balance of like physical. It was probably the hardest. It was physical, it was artistic, um, it was like like you really had to use your brain. Like you had to use your brain really hard. And my brain is very busy, like I have a very, very busy brain. So like ballet was kind of the only thing that was able to handle like my physical wildness and my brain wildness and my like love of music. So I think that's really but it it was that makes a lot of sense. It sometimes I think I probably had more aptitude to acting or singing because not that I have this fabulous voice or anything, but like I love we'll hear it later. Yeah, I'll sing it. Yes. Um I love to talk and I I loved acting. So it was really there were times when I was like, oh, I should choose acting, like I'm probably more talented. Like, but you know, when the ballet world, they always make you feel like you're not talented.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

So I was like, I'll never make right. It's like the MO. That makes a lot of sense though, with like a busy mind and kind of a predisposition, like a ADHD kind of head, where you have to focus in enough, like to really buckle down and physically move your body at the same time, and then that your love of music too. But were you taking because I know Sarah really only did ballet? Is that the same for you?

SPEAKER_04 6:13

I mean, I when we were lit, when I was little, I did jazz, even when I was PBT, OBT, I would do jazz a bit. Um, and then I loved the summers because the summers we did jazz and African dance. And I got we had some great, I mean, probably because I am just a little bit older, I was still on the tail end of that like Gen X 80s leotards and like it's like really tan guys with big feathery mullets and the girl like makeup and big hair. Like I still caught the end of that, and I was I was into it. I was totally into it. I watched a lot of MTV.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

So should we like skip to when you so you're a little bit older, and then how does this ballet stuff fall into a career path or start into a more career path? Yeah, not just something that you did.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

I pretty much knew that's what I wanted to do. I will actually tell you maybe the moment I decided I wanted to do this. Sarah, you will relate. Um, I was in Nutcracker, maybe the first or second year. And that was actually kind of an interesting thing too, because I'm tall. And so um we did the audition, and um, I got in, great. I'm the party child. And then on the first day of rehearsals, they didn't have enough boys. And so they made the tall girls be boys, and I had like a massive, like, I guess now you'd call it what gender dysphoria, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

I had this massive like panic that I was a boy instead of a girl, and like really sick to my stomach, like told it was Lori LeBlanc and Meg Potter. I went up and told them I was sick, and I made my mom come pick me up because I didn't want to be a boy.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

Turns out like, what does this mean for me? I was just like, what the heck? I swear I'm a girl, now I'm a boy. Like, I was like really, it was like very um, I took it, of course. You're like, now I have to make it act up until Christmas time. Like, really, really, and I was like, I like wore my hair down, like try to show them that I was so feminine. Um, but they convinced me, they're like, do it, you're gonna get more dancing. Like, I because we went and talked to them, and I was like, I'm like, my mom was like, she's having a freak out, and like, you're gonna dance more. And I was like, okay, so then it turned out the boys in that whatever in that version, we danced way more than the girls. So I loved it. But the minute, I think it was the minute it became clear, I was like sitting in the audience at the Keller, it used to be the civic auditorium, and um I was watching, it was like the two women who played the maids in the party scene, and it was like between between like in during a tech rehearsal, and they were like cracking each other up and like doing all these antics on stage, and then there's like other company members, I remember the director was talking to them, and like, and then I remember seeing them like backstage, like in their regular clothes, like going out into the world, and I just remember being like, This is the best job you could ever have. I'm like, you're on stage having a great time with your friends, and then you're like wearing these cool clothes, and you're gonna go out with your friends. Like, I had this whole fantasy of like what it was like to be a dancer, and I was like, that's what I'm doing, that's what I'm doing with my life.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

And did the fantasy uphold?

SPEAKER_04 9:34

I mean, it kind of did. I'm not gonna lie. I my favorite part of being a dancer is like tech rehearsals were actually my favorite when you're so delirious, and with your you're with your people, and you're just yeah, you know, I love being in the theater where like there's no time and like anything can happen, and it's kind of just like you know, it it's not regular, it's not regular life, it's like special, and it doesn't play by the same rules, and you're not you're not like going to a job, and it's really it just to me, it was like just the most magical place on earth.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

I like loved it, and but yeah, I think it's such a good one I knew, especially about tech rehearsal, and then when you get to dress and you're just someone's injured, there's drama here, and but you're all in it, you know, to you're all tired, you're all in it. There's no windows, you don't know if it's you know day or night or cold or hot.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

And there's um, I think probably I like that there's like a heightened sense of urgency. Like show must go on, like we are in it. Like there is no, like it's happening. Like, I love that like energy. I mean, I also love being on stage. Like being on stage is where my anxiety actually probably now I understand what that is, but when I was young, I didn't like being on stage, like everything stopped. So that was like a really I was very happy to be on a stage. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

And were you able to perform a lot when you were younger? Was that one of the reasons why you're like, yes, I'm going down this path?

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we always had shows. I mean, not a lot. We did nutcracker, we did the end of the school year performance, we did summer shows, like the camp. I also was like playing piano, so I was performing a lot with my piano recitals. I was almost always in like some kind of play or choir at school. Pretty much anytime I could be on stage, I like found a way to get up there.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah. Not much has changed.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

It hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Um our school director changed when I Day came.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

That was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I was 14.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Okay. But you know, what's funny about that is I was 13. And I that was like between seventh and eighth grade. And I was definitely becoming like the full-on bunhead at that point. You know, like just I loved ballet so hard. Um years. Yeah, and I was having some confidence issues because of my height. My class in particular um were all the really good dancers were particularly small. And I was particularly tall. So there's quite a gap. And so what was happening in sixth and seventh grade was they were getting all these parts, and I was not. And in retrospect, the teachers they would say that to me, like, you know, it's because of your height, it's because of your height, because of your height, but like internally, I think I really internalized that as like I'm the worst, and I hate my body, and I can't control it, and this is terrible, and it's not fair. Um, I had enough confidence to be like, dude, I'm good enough. This is stupid, what a dumb rule. But I mean, it started to go into like, I'm I'm not like them, I'm different, I don't fit in, I don't, I I want to be childlike, I don't want to be this tall, womanly person. I want to be little. You know, I hadn't hit puberty yet though, either. Like I was just tall. Just tall. And but I was, you know. Um, so I day came for the summer because I had gotten because I grew so much, I'd had some injuries. So I feel like the other dancers were like at PNB, or they were like going away. But I was one of the only one of that our group who stayed at OBT. And I Day came and I had like the best summer of my life because I was in the top level, I was with like the company and the high school kids, even though I was only going to eighth grade, and like it didn't matter that I was tall because now I'm with older kids, and she pushed me really hard. And she gave me like you know, two big swans and four little swans. And you know, she worked with me constantly, and I um I felt like I improved like a ton that summer. And so like I really locked on to her because I was like one of her pets. Yeah, because when you are someone's pet, you don't think they're bad, you think they're great.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Right, you know, yeah, you're like, I'm getting all the attention, I'm improving.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

Yeah, and so when she believes she'd work harder, yeah, yeah. And so when she she left that summer, and then I went back to my regular teachers, and I I was super confident. And then the director at that point, I think because I was tall, even though it was in eighth grade, then I I was doing company parts. So I was like a townsperson and Romeo and Julia, and I was I think even I think maybe even we canceled Walls of the Flowers, but I was like, and I was like, I was doing, you know, I was in the rehearsal room, and then I think I was a doll, but like I was like taking company class, and like I was already kind of doing this company work and I was 13. Oh, that's so young, and it was so young, it was so young, and it was so exciting. You felt really special.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Um, but the pressures were real, and when he the director would snap at you, snap at me, I I didn't really know how to take it at first. You know, I would just be very bubbly and always like be in the right spot, and I'd make a joke. That was kind of always my thing. I like make a joke, but also do everything exactly right. Um, so then I day came to be our director when I was a freshman. I went to North Carolina School of the Arts the summer before she came, and we all did great. It was really all the OBT dancers, there was five of us, we were all, you know, that we were cool, right up there. We're like representing good. I think it felt good for us to be like, okay, we are our school must be pretty good because we're with the other kids who are, you know, right at that kind of high level performing.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

This was before the lockdown on of not getting to go away. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Because that we never yeah, as I hear you speak, I'm like, oh, people going away for the summertime. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

And then I came home in spare weeks with Ida. So I did like nine weeks of an intensive that summer. Um it was like that's cool. I was just like gung-ho. Um, and then I day came and it shifted. You know, it our school was so joyous. I'm not saying it was perfect, but there was a lot of joy in the classroom. There's a lot of I don't know, I felt like the parents were around. I felt like the people had, they didn't all, but like some some people we were teaching were parents themselves. It it felt very community oriented, you know, and like I was already even as a kid, like he would join, he would pull us in. We were like in like, you know, a little part of a company part. I just felt like we were always kind of included, around, and supported. And and she came and you know, I really look at it, the first thing she did was turn us against the teacher who had been there. She said bad things about her. Um and I was and and the studio atmosphere immediately was like dark. It was intense. And it was um just heavy. It was just so heavy. Um, and I responded with again, just like just I would always be like teacher's pet and a weird, like not an teacher's pet, but I'd always be like the helper. I'm like, I'll count all the people, I'll carry out the bars, I'll demonstrate for all the classes. I was like demonstrating for the little kids' classes, like, but you know, I felt, I don't know, Sarah, did you feel like you're valued?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Did you feel the change when she came? No, because I was, I mean, when she came, I was going into sixth grade, I think. So I wasn't like that serious. Yep. I mean, I did my three classes a week or something, but um, yeah, I didn't I that's when I feel like things got real, but like real in a good way, I guess, of like, okay, now we're in like this is ballot. We're doing this.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

This is and I will say, like, I still I mean, the takeaway for me always is I love dance. Like, I mean, that was our only option. And so I have so many positive memories as well. I mean, it's really easy to dwell on the negative, but I have so many positive memories of I love that we always danced with the company. I loved my dance friends. So many staff members and faculty members were phenomenal teachers and wonderful people. I love the pianists, I love being downtown. I, you know, I I felt like we learned so much interesting rep. Like I really I do I do think that six days a week isn't always necessary. And and if it was just six days a week and it was just school classes, even that would be fine. But almost always if you got cast in a company role, which is so prestigious, well, then you're there from four to nine.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

And then when you're trying to get straight A's and play the piano and be super social and and and and like, you know, it's it's they there was no understanding of child development and brain development and all of this stuff. So we were just crashing right and left.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Well, should we get into the some of the fun toxic oh sure? Let's let's get into let's get into the meat and potatoes.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Happy to we'll come back to positive, we'll circle back to the positive after.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

But let's well, you were tall, which sorry, I just want to make the point of like when you say when you tell a student, like, hey, it's gonna be hard for you because you're tall, or hey, because you don't have long legs, or your hips are wider set. It's like, what the F am I supposed to do about that? You know, you can't make yourself shorter, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

There's nothing you can do, and I think yeah, the tall thing was first, you know, and it's like I was just always understudying the short people. Um, and so I I became kind of like I think I kind of like put that label on myself of like I'm not a leading person, I'm an understudy. There's always like a reason I can't be performing, there's always a reason I can't be doing this. Um as an adult, I look back on that and I'm like, oh my gosh, by the time I was given roles, I would mess it up. I would, I would sabotage it on some level. I really think I'd have like a weird illness or a weird injury, like, you know. Um, and I think there was something deep down inside that I was like, I don't deserve, I'm not allowed, I shouldn't be a star, I shouldn't get that role. Like I'm I'm the weird one on, you know, I'm a character actor kind of, you know? Like I'm I don't get to be, I don't get to be the ballerina. Um and so that's I still like look at that and I'm like, gosh, there was definitely adults in the room. There are adults around just a few people who could have said something. Strategic times. And I think some people tried. I'm not saying they didn't, but like the people that were in power were not saying things. Um, they were either saying, you are so tall you don't fit in, or you are so tall you are like an adult. You are almost like sexualized at 13, 12, 13, 14, you know. Um, and yeah, I hit puberty later, but then when I did hit puberty, I got huge boobs. So then that was like shocking because it was like, oh my god, you know, like what do we do with her? Um and That was kind of overwhelming. Um, and so were you in the company by by then or I was in high school. I was in high school, and like it wasn't a huge deal because I kept myself really thin the first couple years of high school. Um, you know, we were really just really tight with the eating, and then it got to the point where like I just I basically I don't, I mean, I basically developed an eating disorder, you know, from you you stay thin, you stay thin, you stay thin, and then at some point you just can't. And then that went to a different that went to like I gained a lot of weight, and that's when they were like, it was like, you know, it was like I I was like untouchable. They like did not know what to do with me. They were like, you are so fat, like we, you know, and that's basically what they would say. They'd be like, You are such a great dancer, but you're so heavy. And I'm like, wait, for all those years you told me I was a terrible dancer. Now I'm a good dancer, but I'm too fat. Like, I can't figure this out.

SPEAKER_05 23:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

So that was hard. The weight thing was very, very hard. Um, I would say by senior year, they kind of just were done with me. Like, you know, junior year, I did company roles, I went on tour with a company, I was doing it. I like Sarah said, we weren't allowed to go away for the summer. And I did. Where'd you go? I left. Well, this is what happened. Oh spring break, junior year. I'm sorry, this is like probably such a boring story for people who are not ballet people, but spring break.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Well, nobody's listening if they're not ballet people.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Um, it was spring break, and spring break's always the same. And um my mom took me to New York, and it was a special trip. It was so exciting. And I think it's because we probably had credit card points or something because we were like cheap and we didn't have enough money to do everything. The flight home was not on a Sunday, it was on a Monday. And they made this big deal, you can't miss rehearsal, you can't miss a rehearsal. And like, I never missed rehearsal. And um, and they made a big deal, you can't miss rehearsal on the weekends. And I'm like, I didn't miss the weekend, like, I got it. But I flew home on the Monday and my flight was delayed, and my dad called in, whatever. And because I missed that one rehearsal, because my parents scheduled that flight, they kicked me out of the show. They kicked me out of the spring show. Holy and I had just performed Giselle with the company not three weeks earlier, and I had just been in Alaska with the company, not four months earlier. And I was like, old, like they were just like, get the fuck out of here, is how it felt. And it was to me, it was that was a huge just this was my whole identity, this was my community, this is where I felt like I fit in. This I thought I was gonna get in the company. Like I felt so maybe I wasn't perfect, but I was at least part of the the group. I was part of the elite group, and that was when I felt discarded. Yeah. And so, and I remember I like scheduled a meeting with the artistic director, even though I was like what 16, and I was like, Can she do that? What the fuck? Can she kick me out? I was like kind of appealing to him, being like, This is crazy. And he gave me this big speech how like company members, like and professional dancers, have to fly somewhere like a day before the rehearsal. And I want to be like, My mother, like, I'm a child. Yeah. Um, so I went away to the rock school um in Pennsylvania. And it was awful, actually. It was for me, it was not a great program. It was actually super boring, and they hardly gave you that much dancing, in my opinion. And that sucks. But I also, again, I was still struggling with the eating disorder. I was like very much like my hormones were probably out of control. I was like having a really hard time, having a really hard time. And so then I came back from Pennsylvania, um, which I knew I had gone, and apparently and I went to Nutcracker Auditions, and it went from like being a company dancer person to like they had no part for me. And they wanted me to be like a mouse. That's what I was gonna say. A mouse. And you know, like James basically was like, Well, I know you didn't dance all summer because that's what Ida told me. I'm like, Oh, she didn't tell you I went to a summer program.

unknown 26:16

What?

SPEAKER_04 26:17

Like it was just this, it was this like, and I I just kind of collapsed in like this, like, I am I you know, you just kind of just spiral, I just kept spiraling. I just felt really rejected. Um yes, I did it though. I was a mouse.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

It's so hard to swallow, especially as a teenager, and you're like, uh, I was I was here with these people and like doing this, and now I'm here and these people are still here, and I'm trying to just like be nor, you know, let it be fine, and everything's fine, nothing to see here, totally, we're all good.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah, it was so embarrassing. I just felt yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

How did your how did your peers react? I mean, were you all like a strong group, or did you feel like a splinter?

SPEAKER_04 27:03

So Robin moved to Cleveland, right? Okay, Sarah Longfield, she had graduated, she's a little older. Michelle was doing half high school, half company. She was a company member at that point. So she wasn't really with us anymore. Vanessa and Katy or Katarina, sorry, now, they were in the company. Um, there wasn't that many of us left. Alice and I were together, but Alice had been injured forever and wasn't really part of the high school years, she kept getting injured, she never could really dance. So she was starting to get kind of in and I was starting to get out. Um, but there wasn't a big cohort anymore. There wasn't really a good cohort, and that was part of it, I think. It was, I mean, I will say, like, yeah, during that, like, and then of course I like rapidly lost as much weight as I possibly could and got some approval, which that felt yeah, you know, great. Um, and I was really still holding out for an apprenticeship, but um he was like, Nope. Um, why don't you go to University of Utah? That's what he told me to do. And so I was like, you know, so I went to University of Utah. Like, why did I explore other colleges? I just went where he told me.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

That's like where he told me to go. Yeah, it really kind of demonstrates again like the power of well, his power, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

I mean, where were your parents like when they saw you losing weight or going through all of this? What was there?

SPEAKER_04 28:42

I think there was a lot of denial. It was a lot of denial, like, and and like I love my parents so much, but like I think at one point I try to tell my mom, talk to my mom about it, and she, I mean, the words were you're not thin enough to have an eating disorder, you know, which is like the ultimate crush, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

And like, and just like so old school, totally old school.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Like just like not informed, not informed, and you know, she's her own issues and her mom and her both. I mean, there's like a line of that, yeah. Even I knew like I think that they just thought being really thin was like natural for me. For and I'm like, no, it took it took a lot of starving to stay that thin for that long. Yeah, so there was there was judgment there. There was judgment there, and I think I mean they just wanted me to quit dance. I was like a really good student. I had like scholarships to you know, the other academic colleges I applied for. Um you're like, give a full ride here, you have a full right there, and why aren't you going? And I'm like, I'm gonna go to Utah. I mean, I got a full ride academic ride there, so I didn't have to pay for it at least, but like Mr.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Education told me that I should go to Utah, sister.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

And like what a horrible fit for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Do they have why there and uh did they have a good dance program? Why did he um suggest that? He had just hired a dancer who graduated from the university.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Okay, and I think they do have a pretty good dance. They do.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

I mean, they did for the top level, but when I got there, I didn't make the top level because then of course, like I just spiraled. Then I got mono, and then I was like basically sick and couldn't dance for like three all the whole summer. Like I just basically, I think I just like kind of collapsed into myself at some point. It was like all my dreams were like failing. I was just like, oh my god, I I was like a high achieving person who was like special, was like getting great grades, you know, could good like maybe get a cute date for prom. Like I felt really like crushing it on all levels, good grades, piano, blah blah blah. So like I am like fat and ugly and I'm going to Utah. Like that's how I felt. Yeah. You know, I mean, if you want to go into like the toxicity of that school, it's like you there was no room for individuality. There was no room for a conversation. It was conform. It was I mean, and all the I just like I look at that and I see like even like the adults would just be afraid of him, and they would do whatever he did, and it was whatever he did, and it was this big power structure. And like it's uh shocking having been in the real world and being in the ballet world, not there. It is shocking how obsessed this man was with young girls' bodies. It is shocking and disgusting, totally normalized. But when we really look at it, he was obsessed with young women's bodies and what they looked like, and he was controlling them from the age of 13 to about 26. But that's those are young women, and he was he knew everything about your body and he could comment about your body, and he wanted you to change your body, and he wanted to approve it or disapprove it. You got in the if you look good that day, you got like in the first group.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

No, that first that first and second group was so insane. I was just thinking about that. I was actually thinking about it because he didn't do that in Nevada, I realized.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Um was it like the first he chose who was gonna go in the first group, and that was like and it was such a mind game, it was so like changed to who cares?

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Who cares who goes in the first group? It's so not even a thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

But yeah, but it was a thing, and it was a thing. He had like his six that was like but then the rest of us just like held on and were like, hmm, like what your name wasn't called, and you were just like reviewing everything you had fucked up and what you have done wrong, and why is he upset with me? What did I do? And then the next day you get called and you're like, Oh, a sea of losers. Oh my gosh, what a roller coaster! It was insane.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

It hits people against each other, you know. You're always out for yourself because you gotta, you're just trying to survive. You were just trying to survive so hard. And the mind games, I mean, the mind games that's maybe another podcast, but the mind games were like, you know, I mean, it was he would give me roles and he'd be like, tell the costume wardrobe person, do not alter this for Charlene. If she can't fit in it, she doesn't get the part. So I remember like getting the part, and then they're like, can't you know, it was need to fit into this.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Also, I feel like they could have done it on the sly and maybe not had him involved, but yeah, I think they did the best they could.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, probably they probably tried to have your back. I was thinking about when you were talking about being younger and taller and then being in the company atmosphere, having James have like a younger teenager, probably he felt like he could sit get away with saying more to you because you're more of a student. And so it's like, I can I can just kind of because I'm I'm teaching her and I'm grooming her, so I'm gonna really lay into her, and it's like so blind, like in so many ways.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

I think people like that do like choose the vulnerable in the room, and it's kind of like a lesson to everybody else as well. And I think there were people that had um been part of his chosen group, but maybe he was upset with them, so then he like take it out, but he didn't feel like he could get upset with them, and then somebody else came in his path, and that's who he was gonna be upset with.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Well, and and the thing is, like, you know, I mean, so sad how many hours we've all analyzed this person, but we have. Yeah, it's like I think I upset him. I think Suzanne upset him. There's a few of us who pissed him off because he was like, You have all the artistry, but you don't have the whatever else quality I need, and dang it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

I can identify with that as well. Yeah. He's like, just be what I want you to be, and then everything will be good.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

But it's not, and that's the joke. Because every time you become what he wants, the game's over. He's not having any fun anymore.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

It's like Sarah, I feel like experienced that so much. She's that didn't you? Like, you're like, this is I'm doing all the things and checking all the boxes, and then you're like, wait, but you played by all the rules, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:28

And that's the thing, it's like he finally played by all the rules, and he's like, changing the rules, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Right. Okay, so that so when did you leave and where did you go? Like what you so you then you came back. So yeah, then I came back.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

I went to Utah for a year and I hated it, and I was so sick. And then I came back and I did the summer program, and I like I just he he was teaching a lot, and I just looked at him and I was like, I can't go back, it was awful. And he's like, Okay, why don't you be basically a trainee, like an unpaid apprentice? And uh and they were like, and then and that's the other thing. The school director, for how much she like also I bothered, like you know, I wasn't her pretty pet anymore, but she also like adored me as a person, like so it was also very complicated. She's like, I love you so much, I'm so glad you're back, you know, because like I don't know, it's like she cared about you, yeah, yeah. I don't know, like but I so that year was interesting, that was a really weird year. So I came back and first I would I would answer the phones for an hour, and then I would dance with a company, class, and rehearsal, but I was the only one who wasn't allowed to wear anything but a black leader tied in pink tights, the only one in the entire and then I would stay and take all the school classes, and sometimes on a break, I would go and write her curriculum down. I would write the entire curriculum each month, each level, on this computer, because there's no internet with like the Gale, you know, the um classical ballet, little tiny book somebody. I have to look up how to spell everything, the French words. Yeah, and I she had these notes, and I had to like study the notes, but like kind of crazy. But yeah, I wrote her old curriculum, and then after that year he gave me the apprenticeship. So then I got I got the job, but I was still too fat for him. It didn't work. So I was an apprentice for a couple years, and it was always like threatening, you know, to to get rid of me, and it was always back and forth and back and forth, and then finally I left. I um I did a week at Lines with Alonso King, and it was very mind-opening. And I was like, oh my gosh, I did a lot of journaling, a lot of dancing, and I was like, oh my gosh, like I don't need to be here anymore. Like, this is not healthy for me. Like, these are really amazing dancers, and they don't act like this. This is a really amazing character, and they don't act like this, like it doesn't have to be that way. Um, yeah, that really opened my mind. I didn't have a job. I mean, I had the OBT job, so I came back to OBT and did another year, but like it was so clear I just couldn't, I couldn't really rationalize being there when I had kind of and like and what's really funny is I finally lost all the weight that he wanted me to lose.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

But I was like, I kind of was just like, this is not yeah, I didn't want to unsee and can't undo what has been what you saw and what you experienced at lines, and I actually kind of had a um like I would freeze up.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

Like when I was dancing, I would start to like kind of like I couldn't like I think I had some kind of emotional block, like I couldn't dance very well, like I would almost like on some level like purposely do it bad. Like I don't know, like I couldn't be the dancer. I knew that I but part of me thinks that might be because I like I knew if I danced really, really well, like what if he like liked me? What if I then like was one of his little babies? Like what if I had to be I'm like that wasn't that wasn't something I actually truly wanted. I had written Alonzo maybe six months prior. This is so classic. So I'm like, I'm gonna move to San Francisco with or without a job. I'm just gonna move there. So I moved there, and you know, I'm again I'm out of shape because I hadn't been dancing, and I see Alonzo and he's like, Whoa, oh, where have you been? Like, I wrote you back or I emailed you. You guys, my mom canceled the internet and our email subscription. I never got the email from Alonzo. And he's like, We toured with Viper, I went to OBT, I looked for you, you weren't there. Oh my gosh, shit, no shit. Oh my gosh. Um, so I did not get the job at Lions. Fine. Um, that's what I wanted, but it didn't happen. Um and that I was people kept giving me jobs. And I was like, oh, that's not the only thing that matters. Like it matters, like it's a big ally still. Um, but I just kept getting kind of contracts here and there, like and then Oakland Valley, and then this. And then finally, Company C was a newer company that um came up and Charlie Anderson was a director, and he offered me a position and I said no at first. I was kind of just, I think I wasn't quite sure about him and if I wanted what I was doing, and then finally I was like, Okay, no, I'm gonna do it. Um, and I actually ended up having like a really fantastic, like six-year run with them. And I, you know, not everything was perfect, but like I met some I love dancers, so like everyone I danced with was so incredible. Some of my really good friends, we did interesting rep. It was a it was it was a really great experience. It was a really great experience. Like the joke to me in the end is like once I got in that company and started dancing every day, like I like literally got thin, not because you know, I finally was like kind of the body that I had like been wanting or that he wanted for me, or like I finally got that physique, and it was like so weird to me to like be like, oh my gosh, now I finally look how like I've been wanting to look.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

I've been like desiring this so hard, and it was like it was actually I don't know if it was hormonal, I don't know if it was stress, I don't know if it was all of the disordered well you talked about like emotional blockage and stuff. Like, I I think that there is some truth to that, just from my own experience, because I do feel very similarly, similarly for myself too. Like, I feel like there's something here that we're like holding on to this yeah, yeah, extra weight because it's like for safety or protection or for self-hatred, or I don't know what, but yeah, I I honestly I don't know either.

SPEAKER_04 42:21

And I I wouldn't say that I was ever, you know, I've never been like, you know, like the Sarah type. That's not my body type. I've never been like that that real thin person, but like, but I do think it's like my weight was not an issue anymore. That was not the thing that was was holding me back, you know, it wasn't that wasn't it was no longer like a big point of contention. Um and it was weird to kind of end my career on that note. And then even as like, I don't know, since then, I haven't felt like this big issue, you know. So yeah, I mean with dancers that I work with, I mean, granted, I have a you know, I we are a more contemporary company. Um, our school is ballet and contemporary. Um God, it just wouldn't even occur to me to talk to a child about their weight. It would not occur to me. It nothing could be more uh devastating and unhealthy. I mean, just like that's when they're gonna get either really thin or really heavy. Because once you start messing with your metabolism, once you stop listening to what you need, when you once you stop like control, it's a your brain. I mean, it's just it I don't wish that on any kid. I don't wish that that uh obsession on any child um at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

And it has such like long term implications and ones that are so hard to like untangle. It's just not so straightforward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

So let's talk about open space and the reason you guys got together and built that and this. structure of it or like what you guys believe and why.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Mave and I had gone out for a glass of wine maybe right before the pandemic hit and like realized that we had both had like the the same secret dream of like the secret dream of like having our own school. Mine was called the Hannibal Institute. This is I I didn't say it was like 19 like I wrote like a dream book on like 19. That's like a science worst name ever. But I did have this dream of like I wanted to have a school I wanted to have like mentorship of the older dancers with the younger dancers. I wanted to have collaboration with um different kinds of artists and musicians. I wanted it to have like a college component like I had like this I had given that dream up like I was really happy with my babies and I was like oh but um but she was like laughing because like her dream was quite similar. Her school was quite similar and we were like she's like I wanted to move back here and like start that with Franco and I was like oh I love Franco huh you know and then we just went on our merry way blah blah blah. Yeah the pandemic hit and I just started teaching Zoom classes at my house for free and Franco was getting squirrely and I think he wanted to choreograph and start something and then Mave and he are such good friends and then I of course was like I don't want to be a part of it too guys it was we all like and we would just meet on my deck and um I mean outside and just start talking about it and it's like kind of wild but I mean we all have really similar dreams Franco really wanted to have a company Maven I wanted to have a school I had a lot my kids were young so I had a lot of connections with parents and um as you can tell I talk a lot so I just got a lot of parents on board I was like I'll drive your kids I'll teach them like whatever I'll take them I think I got like 35 kids from their school and then some of the kids from Northwest followed us and we opened our school classes in April of 2021. And can you have a dance school a dance company a dance place where people are dancing super hard they're very dedicated there's no fluff it's not just it's like the real thing without the toxicity without the shame without the like something is not going the teacher's way or the choreographer's way is there a way to redirect that doesn't come with why are you doing that why are you doing that why would you do that what's wrong with that toxic shit that no one needs and and at this point what I'm noticing is like yes 100% it's possible. That's good the only ones doing it you know there are other people in the world who are doing wonderful things. It's absolutely possible and two it has become almost comical to me how unnecessary all that other stuff was it's like having a child find a creative way to communicate and to get them to engage with what they're doing. Oh but you don't want to be creative you want to be a power person who gets exactly what they want when they want it and they're gonna force that kid to do it. And I'm like that is not maturity that is not leadership that is not interesting or creative or artistic or beautiful that's just like a controlling brand it's a good way of dribbing and I mean like it's not always easy like to have high standards you have to have high standards there has to be a level of gravitas there has to be a level of respect there's still discipline there's still a sense of like I wanted someone to believe in me so badly I wanted it so badly and if I had someone to believe in me I just am I don't know how much further I could have gone not just me and my whole generation our whole generation like wow some really beautiful beautiful dancers and the what the story I hear over and over again is I had no confidence I had no confidence I doubted myself I couldn't stand up for myself I was you know and I'm like yeah but we all did we all did and that's because our our leaders had low so you know it was it was it was a pass down trauma like it's also in my opinion it's bullshit like grow up if you want to be in leadership like grow up you mess up move on you mess up move on like learn from it acknowledge it but like as a dancer you feeling bad about yourself and guilty and being like I'm so sorry and I'm the worst and that is a waste of energy that's actually not gonna make you a better dancer. You know it's gonna make you a better like as a dancer you have to learn choreography really quickly.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

If your brain is constantly in I'm the worst oh gosh I didn't get it oh they're gonna be mad oh no insecurities can't learn yeah all right should we do some winging it questions these are just quickfire quickfire yeah you gotta shut me up though you know do it Sarah we could chat forever one habit from ballet you still use daily I finish things I'm a finisher oh that's good um best snack after rehearsal glass of walking am I allowed to say that after rehearsal you know I like like some macadamia nuts some almonds I'm a nut person healthy okay if your dance school it could either be OBT or open space I'll leave it to you had a mascot what would it be?

SPEAKER_04 50:05

Open open space would have a mascot we would have a I think we'd have like like a weird animal like you know like an um axolotl I was just thinking axolotl I know they're real what kids are into axolotls now but Colin are always like axolotls are like thing that we sea creature they live in the oops they live in the sea they're tiny little guys they look just look it up it's like axo okay well that's so funny because I was gonna say yours would be um a seahorse because like the men give birth or something that too we are like gender on yeah yeah a gender fluidity kind of like postmodern we're like postgender we're like yeah we I don't give a shit about gender I mean we we give a shit but we also like right it's what it what it is what it is here we go yeah I love that so much okay for OBT I feel like it would have been like something a lion or a big yeah but something kind of stuck up their butt I would yes definitely stick up the butt oh yeah like a yeah a cock um okay just two more if your school again either school that you want to go with had a theme song what genre would it be well open space it would be um I don't like glam rock like queen that would be totally what I would say yeah dream okay the last one dream guest teacher alive or historical you know I'm gonna say Arturo Fernandez because he just passed away he was the ballet master at Lines for 25 years and he probably taught the best ballet class ever. It was just so smart and interesting and intricate and changed directions but also felt really good and you know a lot of us are on this thread right now um we lived in San Francisco most people danced for lines but a lot of us were in the dance center and we would like you know you just keep hearing these people being like oh like and then he would add like more steps and there were enough counts or like yeah he would be the one he'd be the one he's about five foot three and he looked about seven feet tall yeah just a beautiful dancer all right again I feel like we could go on for hours I I know I feel like I just want to ask questions like we do another one where I can just ask you a million questions we always talk about ourselves yeah I didn't give you any time to do that this time no we will we'll catch up in a couple weeks and make it all about us again but don't worry about into our thank you so much for the work you do seriously it's like really cool.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Well I love it and I will say yeah I mean you do you have to keep we all have to be working on ourselves I mean they're definitely because it comes back up yeah we're we're forever healing for sure and it's not like a straight course and I think it's like I was saying as a teacher we mess up all the time and because those old habits sneak back in a lot I think but I think just being aware of it all is the most important.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

And there's beauty there was beauty like I I'm not negating our all like our childhood and our experience like there's still there was there was beauty there was friendship there was wonderful dancing there was wonderful art there was there was well that's what I was gonna say too is you all those people you mentioned um Michelle Robin Sarah Allison they're all your friends still that's cool so you also came away with your group of friends as I love them all.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

And you all put your kids in dance and I think that's interesting too that that speaks to how much we all love ballet and believe in ballet and that it's just the environment and how important it is to change the environment but like yeah you guys all not all well I don't know but of the few I mentioned for sure I mean you guys are like let's try this again the right way the better way all right well thank you thanks for taking time thanks it was so nice to meet you Shar.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

So fun yeah talk to you soon Lady all right says leave I'm like I don't know how to get out we've been doing this for two seasons and I don't know two seasons thank you for joining us on Beyond the Point. If you enjoyed today's conversation subscribe and share this podcast with a friend who loves ballet or just loves a good story.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Got questions, comments or topics you'd like us to cover connect with us on Instagram at Beyond the Point Pod.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Beyond the Point is produced and edited by Christopher Galant with additional editing by Sarah Furman.