Internal Promotions or External Hires? Making the Right Leadership Call

In this episode of On The Surface, Seth and Brad welcome back Taylor Kirn for a deep dive into one of the most pivotal decisions any company faces: internal promotions vs. external hires.

From the real costs of leadership transitions to the morale boost of promoting from within, the trio breaks down what makes these decisions so impactful—and so challenging. They explore how to identify true leadership potential, when a fresh external perspective is worth the investment, and why succession planning matters more than ever in today’s shifting workforce.

Taylor sheds light on the growing skills gap and what it means for career paths in construction and manufacturing, while Brad talks candidly about performance, cultural fit, and why soft skills often outweigh technical ability at higher levels of leadership. The group also shares practical advice for anyone who's been passed over for a promotion—and how to turn that setback into fuel for growth.

Whether you're leading teams, building a career, or just curious about how organizations make people decisions, this episode is packed with insight, transparency, and a few hard truths.

Thanks for listening!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome back to On the Surface. I'm your host, Seth Stevens, and this week, Brad and I welcome back Taylor Kern to talk about internal promotions versus external hires. But before we start, I want to take a moment to say thank you to everyone who's been listening. And please follow, rate, and comment on the show if you haven't already. It really helps circulate the podcast and recommend it to others. Help us spread the word. All right, let's get into it. So we're going to talk about internal promotions versus external hires. This is a pretty relevant topic for us. I think we have a lot of internal promotions historically, which, you know, Brad, you and I are both benefactors of that. Right. Um, and we've had a lot of key positions lately that we've had to kind of make this decision on. So I thought it'd be an interesting topic for us to talk about today. And I looked at some like facts on leadership transitions, and you guys chime in with whatever else I'm missing or things that you personally think are important. But you know, there's there's some pretty hard data out there that wrong decisions on leadership transitions can cost up to two times the leader's salary by the time you hire them, onboard them. And then if it doesn't work out, you're kind of paying for recruiting costs and doing it all again. Um, and a benefit of internally promoting is boosting morale and preserving institutional knowledge, which I would agree with that. People always like to see the internal promote promotions happen. Um, you know, it gives people the feeling of like a career path ahead of them and that the company's invested in them and will continue to support them. Uh I've felt that way historically. Do you feel that way? Both of you. Really?

SPEAKER_05 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Do it feel like it boosts morale? Yeah. Well, like, how would you have felt if you were looked over for internal promotions in the past?

SPEAKER_04 2:36

I mean, for sure. Maybe you have uh I I mean uh for sure be offended if I was looked over, if I felt like I was qualified for that role. Um you know, I have uh I've probably been looked over for certain positions within the Colosse group, maybe that you could have qualified for. Um that you weren't ready for. You know, you think you are, but you're you're really not. That's true. Um but but yeah, um, if you feel like you're you're gonna be you're gonna feel offended if you feel like you're ready for that next step and you don't get the opportunity to take it.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

I can understand that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:19

I think for my journey, it's been different just because I've had a very straightforward path. I've never left HR, started in HR, obviously still here. Um, but each of my promotional opportunities were kind of in line with me just taking on additional roles and responsibilities. So it's not necessarily something I've had to apply for. It's someone saw that I was capable of doing more, and then I was able to kind of earn that title and keep climbing up.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. What about you, Mr. Stevens? Uh it was it's probably more like Taylor's experience, a little more straightforward path. Um, but there's been times when I have similarly felt like I was ready for something and probably wasn't. Uh, but more times than not, I think I'm I've shown that I am ready to take something on, even if I don't have the skill set currently, if that makes sense. Try to stay in that mindset of I can grow. And uh fortunately the opportunities have been there for me to step into. But I I would easily be offended. That's personal problems.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

I would say that's pretty fair for most.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah. Uh okay, so that's internal promotions. X, you know, some stuff, some benefits of external hires is bringing in fresh perspectives and specialized skills, which, you know, this was a hot topic for us on like regional management and leadership positions related around restructuring to manufacturing and finding people specifically with like aggregate backgrounds and things like that. So um, I mean, I think that's pretty straightforward.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

Do you feel the same way? I do. I think for me, when I would look for someone or lean towards finding someone externally, it's a it's a do we need to change directions type of situation? Like are we if everything is going well and we're performing well, we've had consistent results for for years, you don't want to upset the Apple car. I mean, there's probably I mean, that would show that there's probably multiple people within that organization or that existing structure that are managing well. Right. So whenever you need to hire someone new, you you would want to promote from within, right? But if if you're have a have a struggling business or you need to change directions, or there's there's some there's something that needs to change. I mean, having fresh perspective and looking for someone that has a different skill or more of a technical skill that you need to bring in from an external, I mean, that's that's when I would start thinking that direction. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Essentially it's it's problem solving. Like you've got a problem and you're trying to figure out are we gonna solve this problem internally or externally? And people think there's this huge complicated process behind all of this, but it's really trying to put the best person in the best position for their success in the company. Simple as that. That's right. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Uh that's it's an interesting take because you know, you were talking about like upsetting the Apple cart, and if things are all going well and you want to like continue in that and have a good continuation of the current business and protect what's been going on, I think like a natural internal promotion makes a lot of sense. Like somebody that's been working close to that operation and is trained up. I think you were talking about if it's not going well, like you probably you may need to look for a change or something new, like a fresh perspective. So you typically go external hire. Uh, but what do you think about like an internal in the situation where it's not going well and you may need a fresh perspective? And this may go towards Taylor, your comment about just finding the best person for the spot. What do you think about like internally promoting from a different like line of business or activity? So basically what I mean is like what we've seen from a global level is like somebody from HR moving to operations or something like that. Like they maybe have a skill set that you're looking for, but it'll be a completely different perspective because they're not jaded to the past processes and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

Mm-hmm. I still think that's a huge advantage because they're coming internally. They already know who we are and what we do, they're familiar with the culture. Um I think a lot of times we don't get the right information about where people want to take their career. Like you would be surprised the amount of people that are currently working for us that think that their path is onward and upward in their current field, and they just may not know either A what they're capable of outside of that, that could be a better success pattern for them. Um, or they've been trying to get into that other line and they don't know how to get in. Kind of the concept of if you're from the construction world, you're in the construction world, but maybe you have a want to get into manufacturing. Right. How do you do that? When do you do that?

SPEAKER_04 8:53

And a lot of times they're probably not even, they're not, like you said, they're not thinking that direction. And I think it's on management, it's on leadership to and for me, that's the fun part of this job. It's one of the fun parts of the job is is looking at what skills people have and then trying to place them in the in the right spot so that they can grow their career. And sometimes those folks in the moment don't want to hear that. You know, they they don't like it, they feel like they're either being demoted or or looked over, but you're you're moving them into a path where you feel like they're gonna grow and there's something that you see that they may not see that you hope they come around to seeing later. Um but yeah, that that part of the job is exciting to me. I I enjoy that. Um Yeah. There's something else I wanted to say, but I can't think of it right now. That's okay. We'll come back.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Uh do you guys think we missed anything about why like why do you think it's so important to get it right, or like what things can go wrong if you don't get it right?

SPEAKER_05 9:57

Oh gosh. Everything could go wrong if you make that wrong promotion or wrong hire.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Uh-huh. Outside of just the financial impact that we brought up. Right?

SPEAKER_05 10:09

I think it's far more the impact to the company and the team than it is a cost factor.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Mm-hmm. It depends on what the position is. Uh, to, you know, the the higher the level of position, the more damage it can cause to if you get it wrong. Uh so I mean we have to be at a higher level job, you have to be very careful about who you put in that role. Now I remember what I was gonna, what I was thinking earlier. Um looking at someone, moving someone across function, it just uh depends a lot on the person and their skills, their attitude. You know, they're uh the depending on the role that they're in, they need to have uh a leadership skill or a soft skill over a technical skill. They need to have a technical skill, but if they're in a high role, uh you you might lean more towards uh leadership and and soft like communication type skills. Uh so I I look at that, look at the person specifically. Uh the we identify the people across our company right now that have these high soft or communication skills, leadership type skills, and and mark them for being a person that you would move into a role outside of their function. Yeah if it came if it comes available. I mean, we I know we talk about them often, the folks that that could do that, that we feel like can move that way.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

I wish more people understood that. That at the end of the day, we've got to make money, we've got to be a successful company, we have to have we have to have the people in the right positions to be successful successful and profitable, but there is a huge people piece to that is if you can't lead people, manage people, work with people.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

The management roles, that's what we're doing. It's more important. We we need you to have the technical skill, but if you're smart enough to learn and you deal with people well and you have a good attitude, and we feel like you can we can work with you and and get you where you need to to be technically, then then you're a a candidate for the job. Absolutely. And a lot of people don't understand that. They think they have to lead with the uh the technical skill. Exactly. And it's and it's not always true.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Mm-hmm. That's good. I think we've brought kind of brought that up in past episodes and stuff, but it's kind of glossed over without diving into it further. So it's that's good. Like basically, the the more that you move up into managing more and more people or having more and more direct reports, then the more important it becomes uh more important people's skills become more important, right? Rather than just technical. No, that's good. All right, so let's dive into like the internal promotion world. I mean, I guess we kind of made the case for internal promotions already, like um, you know, it it helps morale, it gives it boosts that for the person as well as the team probably, uh, maintains culture as long as the culture's going well and processes. Uh you guys want to add anything? No, that's pretty, pretty much it. So what's the importance then of succession planning internally?

SPEAKER_05 13:36

You've got to have a plan. And we don't have a plan in every position. And kind of to Brad's point earlier, you need to be in charge of your own path. You need to be in charge of where you want to go and where you want to take your career. And you've got to let someone know what that is. Um, because if you have an aspiration to climb the ladder, whether it be in your current field or somewhere else, um, people need to know about that so that we can start looking into that option or grooming them for that position. Um, succession planning helps tremendously with kind of the paperwork piece of looking at people, but there may be people out there that aren't on that sheet. And we need to know about them.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

Mm-hmm. Can you think of a time where we that you've been in a position where we've needed somebody and we don't have a succession plan ready? I mean, you could probably speak to that. Yeah. It's not always ideal, and we've had situations where uh what like what we would call it is a bench, right? And we've had we've been through times of deep benches with good talent, and then we've been through times where uh we have a lot of open positions and opportunities, which is a fantastic thing. You just deplete your bench really fast, and then you kind of have to rebuild it, right? So uh I think it is super important for like building that succession plan and every manager having an idea of who that next successor is. And if they don't have it identified, then I think as leadership, we should help them identify that person, even if it's not like one of their direct reports, even if it's from a different, you know, um business unit or, you know, working in a different spot in the organization, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:43

I think in our business we have key roles. There are uh in in every operation, there are specific roles that if you lost them, it would it would cost you either time or or money, um, value valuable expertise uh that you have to have uh to keep the business moving in the direction that it's going. Um, you know, identifying succession plans for those key roles is most important. And you just you really just like to answer your question, you really don't know when things are gonna change. We've talked about this before too. You know, it's benefited probably all of our careers at some point, uh, an unexpected change in, you know, somebody leaving, something happening, and it's gonna happen. Uh, you know, these key roles, the folks that are in these key roles, their life happens and and at some point it's gonna change. You need to have a plan. Um so you know, we've we spend a lot of time talking about who could move up into those key roles, but yeah, we have been caught with our pants down, for lack of a better word. For sure.

SPEAKER_05 16:50

It happens.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Yeah, and this like recently, I think the reason why it it caught us in a in a key management role, not having someone to backfill that position, is because not only uh are we backfilling a key management role, which is very important not to get wrong, uh you're also changing directions. You're trying to fix a problem. Uh there so there's a there's multiple things um that cause us to not have a bench for that. You know, those types of things are gonna happen, and that's that's when you start looking externally.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah. I feel like it is uh honestly not that much different than like uh an emergency plan for you know, like extreme weather and fire drills and stuff like that, right? Like we're thinking ahead of okay, if this ever happens, a situation happens, what are we gonna do? Right? Yeah, so you can kind of have a plan. And it doesn't work a hundred percent of the time to where you're prepared the next day. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Uh you know, sometimes to have that plan, you have to have extra people and and keeping extra people on board, especially people that are good and that cost you quite a bit of money, it's it's hard for a business sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

So true. I think a good point that I've always been told and I um I agree with at this point and have tried to do myself is like individually, if you want to move up and grow into something else, like you're in charge. The the easiest way to make that happen is for you to be in charge of your replacement. So making sure that somebody is ready to go behind you and you can present that as a solution to leadership, saying, This person is ready. Like we've been preparing them and they're ready to go. So we won't miss a beat if I move out of this position, right? 100% agree.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

Yeah. And it's never too early to do that.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

Yeah. I think our industry does a really good job, and I'm sure we'll get to this the skills gap crisis that all industries are experiencing. But our industry specifically does a really good job of those front-level internal promotional opportunities. We can quickly identify those that are going to be great frontline foremen, leadmen. Um and then climbing the ladder a little bit further, we have that gap from field to office because field may not be a great office person. You don't know that until you put them in that role and they may excel and they may not, they may not want to. Um, but that skills gap right in the middle there can be pretty dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah. What do you mean by skills gap? Let's just get into it now.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Sure. Yeah. So um it's kind of a hot topic right now in the HR world because training and development is always a hot topic. Um, what are you doing to prepare your people? At the end of the day, it's the people doing the work, and that's what's making you money, right? Um, so we want to take care of our people. And training and development sometimes gets put on the back burner. So, like in our industry specifically, um, you could be hired today and identified as someone who's really good with people, who's pretty sharp, catching on quickly, can solve problems, can multitask, those types of things. Um and you never know to Brad's point when you're gonna need a lead man or a foreman. Um and then you're kind of linear through that path, superintendent, project manager, you keep climbing through. Um, but just because you're a construction foreman, maybe you don't want to be a project manager. Maybe that's not your pattern or your growth. Um and so hiring externally for that can be difficult. We would want to promote internally. And so you have kind of that gap right there in the middle where you're trying to identify who we have and how we're gonna get them to the next level.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, like kind of part of the succession plan, but an assessment tool on who's ready and what would their timeline be to be ready and what do we need to give them to get them there?

SPEAKER_05 21:03

Yeah, essentially.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

And are they interested? Exactly. And true to have had the conversation at some point, which you know, we've started the performance reviews for, you know, for that very reason. Is to identify people and what they want to do and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

What like if we when we go with internal promotions, um how can we I this is something that I don't know that we've done super well ourselves, but like how can you provide a struct a more structured like onboarding and training process, even for internal promotions? I think a lot of times you kind of just take it for granted and you're like, Oh, well, this is an internal promotion, like this person knows us and everything that's going on. Like we could it's plug and play. But even if it seems like it's plug and play, we're better off to try to structure their onboarding. And give them coaching and training just like if we hired an external person, right? Yeah. So your question is how do you think how do you lay out? Yeah, or can you think of times where we've done it well or poorly?

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Or have we ever done it? I think it's something that we've been talking about lately over the last couple of years, especially like in the LDP leadership development classes, we've been uh I mean one of the initiatives for one of the teams was to uh lay out a career growth path for all positions. And I think we have historically not done it well, not communicated, you know, this is the natural progression from a flagger to being a foreman. These are the steps that you would need to take uh from our point of view. Um so you know, we have started putting those those paths together and we've communicated it to our supervisors. Hopefully they're communicating it to, you know, their employees and their performance reviews. Um, but you can, you know, I think you can do that for all functions of our business. Create a path. This is, you know, if you start off as a as an accounting clerk position, you know, this is how you become a controller.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

And if you want to get over into a different function, then these would these would this could be a possible path for you.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah. So that's a lot of like transparency around career path. And I guess I'm kind of asking, like, here's an example. So uh I think this is something that we've tried to do better with in like the finance area, is we have a lot of newer controllers across the board. Um, so we have assigned more seasoned controllers or leadership uh roles in finance as mentors to those controllers, the newer controllers, right? So that they have somebody assigned to them that they can lean on and ask questions to and all of that, so that they have a more like structured personal training experience where they don't maybe they don't feel as thrown to the fire as much, right? Because like if you hire somebody externally, like you typically don't just bring them in and then say, all right, good luck. Like you have a training process and coaching, and like uh I've been in role transitions before where it's a lot of like thrown to the fire, but fortunately I also had people around me that I could reach out to very consistently and like lean on for that. But uh I guess I've thought about it a lot lately with all the changes that we have going on, is like uh just imagining how much the people in these roles could benefit from us almost treating them like an external hire. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

And it and it's an initiative that we've started working on. Yeah. Is creating a clear um job description and expectations for every role in the company. Yeah. That's a great start. It's not something that we've had for every role. Yes. And that we've consistently communicated. You'll hire someone for a position and then you give them the generic duties for that position. And a lot of times they're not, you know, they're not doing half the stuff that's written on that on that sheet realistically. So I think that's a good first step. Yeah. We've taken that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

There's a lot of assumptions whenever you're promoted internally, um, you're not trained and developed the same way as an external because during that kind of like your to your point orientation onboarding step, there's probably things that are not clearly explained or reiterated or gone over because it's the assumption that you've seen it or you know you know who to contact to get that.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah. So And that's a fault. Like I'm not saying that's definitely not something that we want to consciously continue doing.

SPEAKER_05 26:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Like you benefit from a more structured training program for internals.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

And our goal is to have that completed by the end of this year, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Yeah, like the yeah, for us, like the role standard. Yeah. Right, right. All right. Um I have I have a question.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Yeah. How would you so a lot of this is salaried office or management or supervisor type positions, what we've been talking about. How would you tell um uh an employee that's working on a crew on the front lines, maybe operating a piece of equipment that they can't control replacing their or training their replacement? How would you tell them to be noticed to be promoted?

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Um I don't know if I fully agree with that. I think they might have more ability to do that than they think. If they I mean, I think it's kind of the same process, right? Like staying in communication with your manager, like having open conversations. And this is why we started emphasizing uh like mid-year performance evaluations and year-end performance evaluations with all hourly employees, is because we want those conversations with management to be happening on a regular basis so that they understand your desired career path and uh from the manager to the employee, like um, they understand things that they are doing well, things they need to work on, and what their career path could look like. So I think if you're having those conversations and knowing where you want to go, you can start being exposed to that next position. And your manager could say, Hey, I understand that you want to do this and I see that you're capable of it. I want you to take a portion of your time now to like be teaching this next person how to do your job so that we are able to move you to another position, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:17

And you hope those conversations are happening happening from supervisor to employee. And if they're not, what you're suggesting is that it they take it.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yeah, for sure. It's the same thing that we've talked about for a long time. Like nobody is in charge of your career except you, right? And that doesn't matter what position you're in. That's right if you have a shovel in your hand and you're hourly, or if you're in your position now as a VP in salary. Like people, I think supervisors and good leaders think about it, help think about it for you, but even the people that are good at it, it's just a very small sliver and glimpse of their thought process and day, right? Like they can't think about your position all the time. Yes. But you can, and you know where you want to go and what your desires are and what you feel you're good at and stuff like that. So I think just open, honest conversation and making sure that it's uh known and understood, like what your personal goals are.

SPEAKER_05 29:20

Yeah. And raise your hand for every opportunity. Like we have done a tremendous opportun uh tremendous progress in cross-training. And that's just giving everyone the opportunity to be efficient and successful in multiple positions on each crew or team or wherever you work, that if we do have someone out that day, that someone can step in. And what that creates is a a learning environment where you have to have someone other than the lead and the foreman training and mentoring and guiding and showing. And so if you're able to successfully do that and bring people up to speed on the piece of equipment that you're operating, that shows leadership skills. And so you can you can do that very easily, even if you're out. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

When you make your supervisor's job easier consistently, you will be noticed. You will be asked to move up. Yeah, for sure. That's a fact. If you're if you're causing them grief, if you're causing them problems, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, it's uh, you know, we've got a lot of people that think that that they deserve to be to to be promoted and moved up into certain positions, and they're not making their supervisor's job easier. And that's I would tell them that's step one. Like find out what you can do to help him make his job easier and do that for a while without asking for a raise.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

You know, and and and watch what happens.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Yep. Yeah, for sure. That's a great point. Yeah. And you can do it without being arrogant, you know? Yeah. Like you don't have to be vocally arrogant about it and like uh you know, cocky in a sense, right? Like you can, like Taylor's saying, just put your hand up for everything, like training opportunities, uh, you know, if you're like out on a crew, volunteer to like lead safety minutes or take responsibility for something and like exposure, it's showing that you can lead a group. For sure, yeah. It's willingness, it's willingness to do it. And a lot of it is attitude.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Like if you have the attitude that you are willing to do more and you're positive about it and uh learn new things, like I would guarantee you that you'll be noticed by more than one person. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 31:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Okay, let's move to external hires. So uh we talked on internal for a while. So what's what's the case again for an external hire?

SPEAKER_04 32:02

I mean, what I said before, I think it's um it's bringing in a skill uh or a trait that you don't have currently. Um you need to change directions, you need to improve your business. Uh you need more of a more a technical skill that you don't currently have um or that you don't have the level that you need. Um yeah, that that's when I'll start looking externally.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yeah, for sure. So change of direction and specialty knowledge, kind of a much better way of saying it.

SPEAKER_05 32:39

For your higher levels, right? Like there's a difference in like replacing a position or like an entry-level position.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

You're right.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

That's where my mind goes.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

Yeah, yeah. I got that.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Well, in fairness, I kind of had set you up for that because the facts at the beginning were specifically about leadership transitions and high costs and stuff like that, right? Like uh depending on what level you're looking at. I mean, external hires make a ton of sense, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:08

So, I mean, I guess field level, you would just not have the you you just need more people. That's when you would start looking externally at field level. Or you need the a technical expertise, like a a certain type of operator that you don't have the skill in-house.

unknown 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Uh so how how do you so you brought this up? How do you go about like deciding or knowing if that role requires that new thinking or specialized skills? Is it all um say it again? What's the question? How do you how do you go about deciding if that role requires that new set of thinking and specialized skills? Because you may go into it think like already thinking we don't have this person internally. We need to hire external, but like what's leading you to say that?

SPEAKER_04 34:12

For me, it's poor performance. It's uh I mean it's it's uh you're struggling in a certain part of your business. Uh you're it's not being managed well, or maybe it's consistent, it's been inconsistent. Um I mean, it it shows that you lack some, you have a deficiency in that business. And I think it it requires change and a lot of times at a higher level, um, change only happens when you change the person out. I mean, that goes for me, that goes for everybody that that's operating in a in a higher level position. If you want a mindset shift or a significant shift in results, then a lot of times if you've had someone in a seat that's been there for a long time and the results have been inconsistent, then sometimes, I mean, a lot of times you just have to change it out if you want if you want a quick change.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

But I guess it could also be like if your market or environment is changing and you're not and we're not like historically geared towards doing that type of work or competing in that type of environment, like it's way faster to pay for that skill already than to have somebody try and learn it, right? Or learn it through failure. Like, and that's hard, I think, for us to comprehend in our industry because it's a slow changing industry. But if you look at something like tech or or uh medical, maybe or something like that, that is changing incredibly fast lately, it's like, okay, well, if you can, if you have the wherewithal to see a difference coming in the future, but you don't know how to handle it, like you should probably go hire somebody externally that has that expertise, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

I mean, you're if you if you don't, um you're gonna struggle through it. Um a lot of times we're just too slow to react to that because it is emotional. You know, you get attached to people and the way that you do things, and I mean, construction historically has been slow to change, but I think that's speeding up. I think we're seeing it right now, we're seeing major changes in all of our markets. It's it is it's affecting a lot of industries, but construction is one of them. Um and you know, not having people on board that are able to adapt and change with it uh will drive your business in the ground today. I truly feel that. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

True. Uh, you know, a big part of hiring people externally is like there's a lot of time and money that goes into onboarding them, training them, integrating them into the culture, or having to go through culture shifts with new people, uh interviewing them, relocating them potentially. Like have we always been willing to do that? It's a big commitment, right? Yeah. Does it play into the decision making whenever you're thinking about whether we should hire internally or externally? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 37:36

Yeah, I I think we and again, I guess we're kind of beating our chests here, but I I think we do a really good job of assessing what we have, and if it's not there, we're not afraid to go find it.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Uh our we're always gonna look internally for it. It is our preference to find someone who every time.

SPEAKER_05 37:54

And I think we do a good job of that. Our recruiting team is phenomenal. And um, shout out to Jennifer Carter because she is one of those recruiters that know the who, what, when, where, why. If we're looking for something, she's got a bench for it. She knows someone internal, she knows someone internal who has a family member that's looking for work and would be fantastic. Um those recruiter senses that they that they have is super key to successfully quickly filling that position. Um, and having to go external doesn't always mean that that's a bad thing. It's something that we've identified the need and um, yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

I think for us, like we're used to it and are obviously a bigger company, but if you're not, like it is a lot of things to think about, right? Like it's not only are you looking for specialized skills and maybe a different train of thought, but you're also looking for culture integration and you know, like people management and performance, right? Like if you don't, if you find the specialized skills but they're not like a good cultural fit, that may be the direction you want to go, but you better be prepared to like maybe make some other changes or go through rocky, rocky periods of time until the culture is like readjusted or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:25

Mm-hmm. I would say so two things on external recruitment that I think are important to mention is for our industry, they're not always out there. Like shifts in academic uh programs are shifting how we find our people. Um and like right now, if we wanted to go out and find a quarry manager, it'd be very difficult.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

To get the full package.

SPEAKER_05 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

They're usually gonna lack something that you want. Yeah. They might have the leadership skill and not the technical skill, or they might have the technical skill and not the leadership skill.

SPEAKER_05 39:57

Yeah. It's gonna take a while to find someone with that skill that we're looking for. Um I think the higher up you go, the lower you go, it is um to Seth's point, the cultural fit is sometimes difficult because I think our industry is very prideful in who we are and what we do. And there's a lot of trust factor that goes into hiring those management people. So if, like, for example, um, right now, if we were to hire like a plant foreman, uh the plant foreman that we have today have built that trust and respect, and they're very well known in the community. They work very well with their people. Um, to bring someone in externally, you're gonna have to completely start that whole cultural fit all over again.

SPEAKER_04 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:45

And that that can be tough.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

That's a good point. Yeah. And we've historically hired always promoted from within. Internal for the for those positions. And that, you know, that would be the reason why.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

I think um, you know, this may be slightly off topic, but I'm thinking about kind of what you were talking about, Taylor, and just whether regardless of what interview we've been in lately, like internal or external, one of my increasingly favorite questions to ask is like uh situational or scenario type questions, like what do your first six months look like? Like, no context, no background, right? Like, what is their what's their assessment and self-awareness of like how they come across and what situation they be maybe walking into? And like what are steps that they're going to take, understanding that they have to build that trust and rapport. There may be culture shifts, they probably don't know our processes, things like that. So um just the ability for them to like think about that and then think through steps and a plan forward is always super interesting to see how people answer.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

And then you and then you really start to figure out if they're people oriented or task oriented, you know, if they're if they think about the business holistically or if they've kind of got a tunnel vision on the like a technical aspect of of the job. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Uh yeah, I think that question can reveal a lot. They're all like more open those open-ended like situational questions really give you insight into how people think. It's not so much that the answer matters, but it's like I think it it gives you an insight on their capacity to manage.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

Yeah. You know, you can kind of nail down how how much you can give them, how much they can think about. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

That's a great question.

unknown 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Oh yeah. Put that in your bank.

SPEAKER_05 42:51

I know. You know, speaking of interview questions, I I think one thing um to take away from this topic of internal and external hiring is and I don't know, i this is my experience, but I have been in the same path, same role now 10 years. I'm getting ready to celebrate 10 years here. Yay! Um, I have not had to interview for a job since I was hired here at Delta. And so if you don't have that practice, um, you should start. Like they say you should be updating your resume like every year. Like if you guys had to redo your resume right now, would it not take forever to think about all the things that you've been involved in?

SPEAKER_04 43:38

Yeah, I'd probably use Chat GBT.

SPEAKER_05 43:40

For sure. Oh, I would for sure. But keeping that fresh, no matter what line of the business you're in, keeping that fresh and like practicing those interviews, because you never know. Like whoever said it, you never know when there's gonna be a shift, and now you're applying for a salaried position. Yeah. And you're gonna have to sit in front of two people that you kind of know. Yeah. Interview for that position, but you should be practicing.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

That's a good point. Yeah, you should. That's a really good point. For sure. What would you guys say to the person that may be listening to this and and feel like they have been overlooked by an and an external higher?

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Taylor?

SPEAKER_05 44:22

Great question. I would say, and this is very difficult, I think, to comprehend, but don't take it personal. Like use it as an opportunity to figure out how you get bigger, better, faster, stronger, if that's the path that you still want to take. Right. I think some people will look at it like, okay, this just wasn't my time, or it wasn't my fit, it wasn't my position, this isn't my path. And so is this a time to change? Or are you lacking somewhere that you need to be building those skills today and be asking those questions? It's fair and fully on the table for you to go back to the people who interviewed you and say, you know, I appreciate the opportunity. That was great. If you could give me some advice, that would be fantastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

It's a great question. I think that people shy away from that because they get in their feelings and they feel like, I didn't get it. It has to be something, you know, I'm not qualified, I'm not capable. And they start going down that di downward spiral.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Or they're just they're angry.

SPEAKER_05 45:30

Or they yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

At the company, and and there's something obviously wrong with management that that they can't see, and I don't want to work here. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 45:40

If you're pointing the finger at someone else, then that may be the reason you didn't get the position.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Yeah, that's true. That's a good polished answer. Because mine is more unpolished. It was HR Pro. Let's hear the unpolished version. Uh I mean it's a similar thought process, and at the core, it's the same thing, right? Like um whether or not it's happened to me, I think that I've had the feeling that it's happened to me, if that makes sense. And I'm a competitive person by nature and played sports and stuff growing up. So um I and I love being I love an underdog and I love being an underdog, right? Uh, to where you can kind of upset the the balance or what what's expected, right? So like being overlooked is a fantastic opportunity to operate with that chip on your shoulder, yeah, but not in a disruptive, yeah, uh like disrespecting way, right? Like it's there's still a way to go about it to not take it, don't take the decision personally, but take your growth opportunities personally. Like the only person that can make you better is you. And so like take the opportunity to become more self-aware, to develop yourself in a leadership capacity to figure out why you were overlooked. Like it's totally fair, like you said, to go back and ask that question. And as supervisors, management, whatever, like we should be able to articulate that to people. And it's a fair question to come back and ask. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think use it as like because I'm competitive, I use it as fuel to say, okay, well, how do I make myself better? Yeah. Uh, because whether I mean it was probably the right decision, but I'm gonna continue thinking it was the wrong decision at the next time that it comes up, I'm gonna be ready for it. Sure. And it's not gonna happen again, right? You're making a choice to not be a victim of that. Yeah, it's spend the next 24 hours being upset about it.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

I mean, it all goes back to attitude, right? Like Yeah, that's right. Spend spend some time being upset about it and then self-assess. Why wasn't I hired for this position? What do I need to improve? Go ask the questions. But just like what you said, you it's you need to own it. Yeah, you need to own it and you need to own your own personal improvement to get you to where you you will be considered for that next time.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

For sure. And I don't remember if we've talked about this explicitly on the on the podcast before or not, but like all this stuff that we talk about and come back to is still leading me back to attitude. Like, it's up to all of this stuff is up to you. You can make the choice every day when you wake up to either be a grumpy old fart that's gonna be mad about everything in the world, or you can wake up, thank God that you're alive and breathing, put a smile on and slay the day.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Right?

SPEAKER_04 48:56

And those fo those people are noticed because they're not very that operate that way. I mean, I don't have the time. But uh when you have someone like that that you work closely with, you you lean on them. Yeah, you want to be around them, you want to work with them. They're a true, they're a key role, regardless of the role that they're because of that. I would go for it.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

I would also add that we've we've seen this happen. And going back to attitude, like let's say, for example, that you have applied for a supervisor position and did not get it, that person that took that role may not be there long. Like we make bad hires. It happens.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

You don't know. You do not know.

SPEAKER_05 49:42

And so if you use that transitional opportunity to make it difficult for them, or you're negative about the company or about the decision that was made, you're negative to the people that you work with, you're for dang sure not gonna be considered that second round if something happens to that supervisor, right? So you want to continue to put your best foot forward, your best attitude, support that person and you know, keep on improving because just because that person was hired doesn't mean they're gonna be here another 20 years.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

That's a good point. It could change tomorrow. And it does. It's it's happened for all of us.

SPEAKER_05 50:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Yeah. The moment that you think, I mean, Brad and I have had this conversation a lot. The moment that you think that you're stuck somewhere and you're considering other alternatives, uh, pretty shortly after things happen that you didn't see coming, and then you're like, oh well. Doors open that worked out, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

But you gotta be ready.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah, for sure. You gotta be on people's radar. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

Good stuff. If y'all enjoyed the episode, please rate our show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and check out Delta on all social media platforms at Delta Companies, and our website at Delta C O S looks like Deltacos.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.