Top floor to shop floor: Why is it taking so long to connect these floors?

In this episode of People B4 Machines, Amanda Cupido dives into the persistent disconnect between the top floor and the shop floor in factory automation. Joined by Jeff Burnstein, President of the Association for Advancing Automation, they explore strategies for bridging this gap through effective communication, smart automation implementation, and fostering collaboration across all levels of an organization. Jeff shares insights on overcoming workforce fears, starting small to build confidence, and the critical role of leadership in driving successful automation. Tune in for actionable advice and thought-provoking discussions on the future of automation and its impact on people and businesses.

For more bold questions and sharp insights, visit www.peopleb4machines.com. Remember, the future isn’t fully automated—it’s people-powered.

Transcript

Jeff Burnstein: 0:00

You want to be working for a company that's made a decision to automate. And the reason is that's the way your company is going to remain competitive. There are companies all over the world implementing robotics and automation in every industry. If your company isn't, there's a real risk of falling behind. And that's the real risk to your job. People before machines. Conversations on the chaos of factory automation from Monday morning to the very near future. An Eclipse podcast.

Amanda Cupido: 0:32

Welcome to People Before Machines. Conversations on the chaos of factory automation from Monday morning to the very near future. I'm Amanda Capito, a speaker, author, and entrepreneur with a passion for the intersection of technology and humanity. This episode, we're talking about connecting the top floor to the shop floor. I'm going to discuss strategy, execution, and creating a two-way flow of information between executive leadership and operations with my guest, Jeff Bernstein. He is the president of the Association for Advancing Automation, which is North America's largest automation trade association. Jeff joined the association in 1983 and has held a variety of positions. He's been in the role of president since 2007 and has become the go-to expert when it comes to automation issues with policymakers and the future of automation beyond the factory floor. Jeff also serves on several boards, including the Executive Board of the International Federation of Robotics. And in 2023, he received the Endelberger Robotics Award for Leadership, which is widely considered the Nobel Prize of Robotics. So we are very lucky to have him. Thanks so much for joining me, Jeff.

Jeff Burnstein: 1:46

Thank you, Amanda. Delighted to be here.

Amanda Cupido: 1:48

All right, let's get right to it. This disconnect between the top floor and the shop floor has been going on for decades. Why do you think we have not been able to crack the code on getting them aligned?

Jeff Burnstein: 1:58

I think it's really difficult. I think that there's still so much mystery about robotics and automation and how you should go about implementing it, whether you should go about implementing it, what impact it will have if you do, what impact it will have if you don't, that I think it makes it difficult for top managers to decide if they want to do it, how they're going to do it if they do, how they're going to communicate it. And those things have to be handled properly, or you're not going to be successful.

Amanda Cupido: 2:27

Do you think that this issue, though, stems beyond just robotics? Like this disconnect seems to have been around for a while and maybe expands to other issues, even.

Jeff Burnstein: 2:36

I think it certainly expands to all the automation technologies, whether it's robotics or machine vision or artificial intelligence, all these technologies are relatively new. I mean, even though robotics has been around for over 60 years, it's been primarily in big companies like the automotive industry. When you get beyond automotive, it's still relatively new in many industries in the United States.

Amanda Cupido: 3:02

And do you feel like there's a widespread acknowledgement that we need to bridge this disconnect? Or do you think some people are just like burying their head in the sand and going, it's fine?

Jeff Burnstein: 3:13

Well, I hope that everybody's on the same page that they want to do what's best for their company, whether they're on the top floor or the shop floor, and uh they want to use the best technologies available because they want to remain competitive. It's a highly competitive world, as you know. And these technologies can make the difference into who the winners are and and those who fall behind.

Amanda Cupido: 3:36

For sure. So, what does communications play in all of this?

Jeff Burnstein: 3:40

Well, I think it's huge. I think that companies who handle it right and they're gonna be more successful. Again, there's a lot of fear, especially among the workforce, about well, what happens if we bring in all this automation? Is my job gonna go away? And what does that mean? So I think you have to really over-communicate, if anything. What are you doing? What are you bringing in? Why are you doing it? And what are the responsibilities on the people who are supposed to implement it? You know, are they gonna be under all kinds of pressure to make it great? Uh, that because top management, that's what they want to do. Have has top management decided to start with something that's really hard rather than something that is relatively easy to build confidence in the organization? So I think there's a lot of communication issues involved here.

Amanda Cupido: 4:30

And, you know, you referenced middle management. So let's dig in there a bit. Do you feel like, you know, lots of people like to point their finger and go, oh, it's middle management that's, you know, deepening this disconnect or preventing it from the overcoming of it. So what what do you think the role of middle management specifically is? And are they even the ones to blame?

Jeff Burnstein: 4:51

You know, when it comes to blame, I think top managers are top managers. So if things go wrong, I think it's on them. I can't imagine blaming somebody in a lower position in my organization. I own that. And I think top management owns what happens with automation. Middle managers, of course, have a key role to play in that communications arena and also in advising. And so I believe that this is oftentimes different depending on what company you're at. Some companies do this well, some don't. I was just at a conference where I was on a panel, and one of the panelists was a user in the packaging arena of robotics, their recent user, and they talked about their competitor nearby who had just implemented robotics and automation and had laid off a whole bunch of people. And they didn't want to do that because this company here decided that it was really important that they implement automation and robotics, but that they do it in a way that allowed more opportunities for people and that the jobs that they were creating were better. The things that people didn't want to do, they didn't have to do anymore because the robots could do the higher level things that required your brain instead of just your brawn, the, you know, the people could do. And so this is the right way to do it. And potentially what the other company did was not the right way to do it.

Amanda Cupido: 6:13

Yeah, thanks for that example. I think it's really important to start imagining what this actually looks like. Have you seen any specific communication tactics or heard of any anecdotes of, oh, they rolled this out in this sort of way and it really worked well and really got everybody on board?

Jeff Burnstein: 6:28

Yeah, it was a story like that one I've heard. I've heard many stories like that. You have to be up front with the team on what you're doing and why. And if it goes wrong, you can't blame the team. Look, you decided you were going to implement automation, whether the recommendation came from the shop floor or not, but you've made the decision, you're gonna do this, it's your company, you're the leader, or in the group of leaders, and you've decided to do it, but your people are the most important asset that you have in your organization, regardless of industry. So you have to get them prepared. You have to make sure that if the implementations don't go exactly the way you thought, that they're not being blamed for that and not feeling under the gun, that's the wrong way to do it.

Amanda Cupido: 7:15

Aaron Powell Do you think sometimes executives, though, are too far disconnected from the shop floor to really lead the transformation well and to meet them where they're at?

Jeff Burnstein: 7:24

I I certainly think that's that's true in some cases. Again, I think it's company specific. You have this image that these technologies are going to solve all your problems and that if you just put them in, we'll be fine. But that's not the way it works. And I think sometimes companies take on too difficult a challenge to start with. And when it fails, everybody sours on the technology, like, oh, it doesn't work. Well, the better way to do it, according to companies that I speak with, start with something small. Start with something where you can have success. We call this starting smart. Let's get it in, let's build confidence among the entire organization, especially Shop Four, that these things work, that they help us achieve our goals, that they're not a threat to our jobs, that they're actually making our jobs easier. And then we can scale it. What you don't want to have, of course, is get caught in pilot purgatory, as many companies report. You want to make sure that if it does succeed, you're prepared to scale, that you've thought far enough in advance about the tasks that you want the automation to do.

Amanda Cupido: 8:32

Let's talk time frames. Do you feel like there's a certain amount of time people should allocate to a pilot and time box it or a certain time frame to roll out a new technology? Like is there a such thing as doing it too quickly and too long?

Jeff Burnstein: 8:46

Certainly there's too long. That uh, you know, it's you're gonna be in this pilot program forever, you're never gonna get the efficiency you want, you're never gonna take full value of these technologies. Can it be too short? I suppose it can if you rush things. If you assume that, well, it did this well, it must be able to do anything. Right. These technologies aren't like, and you've got to make sure that you've thought through the process and that this is one part of the process. People are a key part of the process. The other technologies you're integrating with, who are your partners, is everybody on board on this? I I think that's really critical.

Amanda Cupido: 9:25

When you talk to your members, are you hearing a common thread or a common complaint, either from one party or the other, about the disconnect?

Jeff Burnstein: 9:34

Well, uh again, I don't know if I hear a common complaint, but I I generally hear that maybe when the top management decides they want to implement, that there's this friction between the people on the plant floor who don't know. Remember, we have a shortage of skilled labor in this country. And when you're implementing automation and you don't have uh an experienced team, you really want to work with them or work with your partners, your integrators, whoever, um, to make sure this goes smoothly. It can't just be this edict. We're gonna automate and it's gonna be successful or else. I don't think that's the way to go about it.

Amanda Cupido: 10:12

Yeah. What's the alternative? Like, give an example of some messaging that you might use that's a little bit more realistic.

Jeff Burnstein: 10:22

I think what's realistic is to say, look, automation is the future. Our organization is either behind or hasn't gotten started yet, and we want to do this, but we want to do it the right way. And that right way involves everybody in the company, understanding the why and how we're gonna go about it and what it's gonna look like if it's successful. And if it's not successful, we need to be in a position to pivot and say, okay, what will it take to make it successful? Or maybe we just took on the wrong problems. Everybody's got to be open about this. And, you know, shop floor as well. They've got to understand the competitive world that we live in. The real threat to jobs in America or anywhere else is when companies no longer are competitive, because that's when every job is at risk. And sometimes automation might lead to keeping the level headcount the same or even reduce it for the near term. But what that can often mean is a company wins new business, ultimately expands and hires more people. And in any case, we often see that the jobs are safer, better, and higher paying, the kind of jobs people want to do, not the dull, dirty, dangerous jobs that people really don't want to do, which is why we have labor shortages.

Amanda Cupido: 11:39

Right. Um, that's well put. Let let's zoom out a bit and talk about corporate culture as a whole. How can leaders really measure success around that? And how can they help improve where they are moving forward?

Jeff Burnstein: 11:56

Well, like with everything else, there's got to be clear metrics on what you're trying to accomplish. What I've found is in talking to some people who worked in uh the logistics field is that the metrics aren't always calibrated properly. It's like, oh, the robot was supposed to unpack, you know, 500 of these boxes in a certain amount of time and it only did 300. Well, it was doing the heavy ones that the people didn't want to do over all the people who were doing the other ones. The whole operation was running more smoothly, but somehow the metric on the people working with robots didn't hit. That's really not calibrating those metrics properly. And I think whoever is setting the goals for the organization needs to understand all of the positive impacts of what they're doing and how critical all these things fit together and not just focusing on small parts of the operation. And that's an example that was given to me.

Amanda Cupido: 12:52

I love that example because it really paints the picture. I mean, we're so used, it's the qualitative versus quantitative, right? So, of course, if you explain that with the anecdote in its fullest, it's clear that the integration might have been actually working great, but when you look at the numbers, it's not really painting the picture the same way. So are there certain quantitative metrics that people still can lean on when trying to track success around this?

Jeff Burnstein: 13:17

Well, I know that companies have ROI goals, you know, what time frame they want the technology to pay off. Ironically, this has been a problem in the past. In the early days of robotics, we found that in the United States, everybody wanted something to pay off in six months to a year or, you know, something uh somewhat unrealistic. Whereas in Japan, where robotics caught on more quickly, they had a longer time frame on the paybacks. So even that you have to be careful on. It's great to have, you know, real clear uh payback periods. And I think the payback periods have shortened as the costs have come down and the benefits of the automation have improved. But you still have to think long-term on these technologies. They may not be great uh right out of the box. The payoff may not be there. But when you look at how companies invest, I mean, when you look at where venture capital goes, they're investing in things that are nowhere near ready today because they believe that they will be ready down the road. And I think sometimes we have to look at the applications of these technologies in a similar fashion. Our company will be better off down the road if we master this than we will if we just say, oh, we didn't hit our our metrics on uh ROI, so we're just gonna stop.

Amanda Cupido: 14:32

Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about a message that might be beneficial for all of the leaders to hear. Like if you could broadcast a message, let's say, to all top floor leaders, what would you tell them?

Jeff Burnstein: 14:48

If you're gonna get started with automation and robotics, start smart. Talk to your people before you make decisions on what it is you're trying to automate. Let's make sure we pick things that are doable, not impossible tasks. And let's always remember that the people are the most important part of your company, not the technology. The technology is there to help the people, not the other way around.

Amanda Cupido: 15:12

Well said. Okay, and now the other side. If you could broadcast a message to the shop floor, what would you say?

Jeff Burnstein: 15:18

I tell the shop floor, you want to be working for a company that's made a decision to automate. And the reason is that's the way your company is going to remain competitive. There are companies all over the world implementing robotics and automation in every industry. If your company isn't, there's a real risk of falling behind. And that's the real risk to your job.

Amanda Cupido: 15:39

Okay, thanks for that. Hopefully, this can actually be broadcast across the shop floor. We got a podcast here for a reason. So thanks for that. And I'm curious, I just love the position that you're in because you get to talk to so many folks in the industry across so many different companies. And sometimes we can become our own echo chambers within our own organization or peer group. And so is there a message that you're hearing as we look ahead to the future of what people should have have top of mind and what people who are listening to this podcast should also be aware of that this is a larger conversation that's not maybe just them alone?

Jeff Burnstein: 16:15

Well, the big conversation right now in the industry is what is going to happen with humanoid robots? All the companies who are investing in these humanoid robot companies are believing this is the future. Many of the companies who are considering applying them are curious, is this the future? And it's too early to tell, frankly. But I think the reason is that we don't really know what the form factor is even going to look like in humanoids. Right now we see a lot of bipedal robots, and then we see others that are humanoid torsos, if you will, on a mobile robot base. We don't know if they'll be multitasking or doing a single task. If they're doing a single task, will they be better than existing robotic form factors or not? Will they be cost effective? Will they be reliable? Most importantly, will they be safe? We have safety standards, all the other form factors of robots, industrial arms, mobile bases. We don't have humanoid robot safety standards yet. We're working on it, organizations like A3 and others. But this is really one of the hot topics right now. And also is how that relates to AI. And will AI enable humanoids to do just about anything a person can do? I think we're aways from that. There are other people who disagree with me, and it'll be interesting to see. But that discussion deals with the factory floor and warehouses. The broader discussion is how do these technologies make our lives better as people are aging? Will we have technologies like humanoids potentially that can help keep us in our homes longer? Will AI allow us to find cures for rare diseases and treatments that we don't have today and develop them faster with robotics? Will the planet become more sustainable because of these technologies? Will we be able to create more affordable housing quicker? And these are the challenges and the hopes that the general public has. Look, we know all about the business side of this, but let's think about how it might impact our lives for the better. And that really resonates with people.

Amanda Cupido: 18:30

Yeah, it's that's life. That's our society and our world. And it's it's really interesting to even just start imagining. So thanks for putting that on our radar. And you know, maybe next time we're talking about the disconnect between the top floor and the shop floor, it'll be very different because we're going to be talking about humanoids and and how we connect to them, right? Um, before we let you go, I always love to end with a little bit of a curveball question if you're up for it. So here's the hypothetical if the shop floor employees ran a reverse town hall for executives, what do you think they'd say?

Jeff Burnstein: 19:07

Wow. Hard to know, but I would think they would say really, it's important to keep us in mind when you're talking about automation. Let's keep us at the forefront of these conversations. Please don't look at this as people versus the automation. Think about how this is part of our team. And if we're gonna implement this, make sure you're thinking about us primarily, with the technology being there to support us.

Amanda Cupido: 19:37

Do you think this should actually be happening? Like I actually imagine a world where an organization does open the floor and say, you're gonna run the meeting, talk to us, right? Maybe that's one of the step one in the communication that's been lacking.

Jeff Burnstein: 19:47

Well, it's possible because that open conversation might lead people to say, here's where it makes sense. Here's where I don't think it does, and here's why. I think that kind of expertise from the plant floor to the top floor is really valuable because if you're just top down and you're doing things and the people who actually work their day to day don't believe in it, it's less likely to be successful.

Amanda Cupido: 20:12

All right. Well, leave it right there because that was so well said. Jeff, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for listening to People Before Machines: Conversations on the Chaos of Factory Automation Powered by Eclipse. We're here to challenge the status quo in factory automation because machines don't build factories, people do. The technical producer for this podcast is Ryan Denninger. I'm Amanda Capito. If you got something out of today's episode, we'd love it if you share it with a teammate, a plant leader, or anyone who is tired of the automation echo chamber. Be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast player, and you'll be getting real talk, bold questions, and sharp insights. And remember, the future isn't fully automated, it's people powered. See you next time.

Jeff Burnstein: 20:59

Thanks for listening to People Before Machines.

Amanda Cupido: 21:02

Dialogues on the Classic Factory Automation.

Jeff Burnstein: 21:07

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