Still a man’s world, but under construction

In this episode of People B4 Machines, Amanda Cupido speaks with Stephanie Hun, Director of Business Development for Flatiron Dragados Canada, about the evolving role of women in the construction industry. Stephanie shares her journey, offering insights on overcoming biases, embracing stretch assignments, and leveraging emotional intelligence to lead effectively in a traditionally male-dominated field. They discuss the importance of allyship, mentorship, and fostering inclusive workplaces to drive meaningful change. Tune in for a compelling conversation on breaking barriers and building a future where diversity is the blueprint for success. 

For more bold questions and sharp insights, visit www.peopleb4machines.com. Remember, the future isn’t fully automated—it’s people-powered.

Transcript

Stephanie Hun: 0:00

We're seeing a lot more businesses deploy teams focused on AI. So how are we using AI? How do we leverage AI? Are we finding the right ways to you know harness like the power of AI?

Amanda Cupido: 0:18

People before machines.

Stephanie Hun: 0:20

Conversations on the chaos of factory automation from Monday morning to the very near future.

Amanda Cupido: 0:25

An Eclipse Podcast. Welcome to People Before Machines. Conversations on the chaos of factory automation from Monday morning to the very near future. I'm Amanda Cupido, a speaker, author, and entrepreneur with a passion for the intersection of technology and humanity. This episode, we're discussing how women can make their mark in the construction industry. I'm excited to be speaking to Stephanie Hun. Stephanie is the director of business development for Flatiron Dragados Canada. Her focus is advancing public and private client strategies, collaborative contract structures, and finding solutions to complex projects. She has more than 20 years of experience in consulting and heavy civil construction for a wide range of infrastructure projects across various sectors, including transportation, aviation, ports, tunnels, mining, and renewable energy. On top of that, she's worked across multiple markets, including Canada, US, and Australia. Stephanie is also a proud mentor who is passionate about advocating for women in construction. She is involved with several boards and committees, including serving as the president of Canadian Construction Women. Stephanie, welcome. Thank you, Amanda, for having me. Oh, we're delighted to have you. Let's dive right in. So I'm just curious, going way back, what were you told about being a woman in the industry as you were breaking in? And were you given any advice or warnings that you still remember to this day?

Stephanie Hun: 2:00

Oh my gosh, we're really digging deep. So I mean, 20 years ago, you know, as a woman, you didn't think that construction could even be a rewarding career. And I landed into this sector, you know, really by mistake. Um, it was through a temp agency because I wanted to get some experience while completing my studies in university. And so, you know, got my first tastes into this space. And I think as a woman, you were kind of, you know, put your head down, just, you know, do as you're told, you know, try to, you know, maintain a good do a good job and, you know, be seen, but not too seen. And I think the thing too is that when back in the day, you know, media, and this is even before the invention of social media. So uh, you know, media kind of uh played a a role in highlighting construction as mostly men and in hard hats and and you know, vests at sights. And so in the beginning of my career, you know, you're kind of told to just, you know, again, blend in, not draw attention to your gender. But doing that by not being visible, you're really hiding your power. And I think if I'm hiding that, then you're not really reinforcing the idea that, you know, women don't really belong here. And so one of my very first bosses said to me, you know, because I thought that I had to be nice to everybody. I think as a woman, you're really trying to get along with everyone, be peacemaker. And so she said, Don't try to be everyone's little sister. You know, um, you're not trying to, you know, that's not gonna help you in in succeeding with new challenges or results. And if you need to sell or negotiate, how can you do that on equal footing if you're seen as less than or, you know, constantly bending to everyone's whim? So I think just not trying to be this sweet and nice, you know, persona to everyone really has helped immensely. I think the other thing too is positioning and branding yourself early on, you know, really, really helped me um kind of push for progress. So I would say kind of those two things kind of early on in my career I identified as pathways to success.

Amanda Cupido: 3:59

And then have you seen something on the other side? So, you know, you came in and the default was kind of to like blend in, be nice, harmonize. But then do you find that there was any moments where you were just being yourself, but it was coming across as super bossy when if a man had said the same thing, it wouldn't have been, you know, like did any of those moments come up for you or have you witnessed that?

Stephanie Hun: 4:23

Yeah, um definitely. I mean, it's I think as women, we're always more cautious about tonal, being tono. So tone and word choice. We're very conscientious about that. But if you were to use the same words and you were maybe you are more concise or you know, more punctuated, that can come across as, oh, code removed. Um, you know, you're not really, you know, you need to show warmth and depth. And that that certainly has happened in my career.

Amanda Cupido: 4:56

And what advice would you have for someone who's going through that right now? Like, do you call it out? Are you continuing to go on with that? Like, how do you how do you tackle that?

Stephanie Hun: 5:07

Essentially, you do want to address it because you have to call it out. I mean, if somebody's basically saying that calling you out on your tone and and et cetera, and especially if you just you're coming second after a man's kind of, you know, given the same messaging. Um, I think you need to call out on those biases. Yeah, I agree.

Amanda Cupido: 5:27

I think it's important and there's a way to do it that's not creating a whole shakedown or invest launching an investigation. You can do it with kindness and respect. Because sometimes people might not even realize, right, that they're doing it. And I think this is what ultimately leads to the change that we all, I think, want to see. You know, and on that note, do you feel like there's things that people need to unlearn, whether that's the women themselves coming into the industry or people in the industry themselves?

Stephanie Hun: 5:57

I think a lot of times, like, so for example, whenever we see job ads, we're looking to check the box for completeness. And we're we're really reading everything to a T because if we're not, then well, why would we like submit for that job? So we're, you know, it's it's kind of like in our nature. And having spoken to so many other professional women in our industry, that's also something that they've said is, yeah, you know, like just being really conscientious and you know, we want to get the best marks. But if you were to ask a male colleague, they're like, oh yeah, 50%, you know, and I'll try my luck because and they'll chance it because their attitude is, why not me? And I think as women, it's like, yeah, why not me? You know, I I think unlearning this whole we're less capable um idea and philosophy. I mean, that's something I've had to deal with too, is like, why not? Yeah, I I am more than well suited, you know, keep my head up, keep my head high, volunteer um for stretch assignments because you want to learn like by failing up, right? And so you need more opportunities to do that kind of thing. So I would say, you know, a lot of that is just unlearning to say no and being and shying away from challenges. Yes.

Amanda Cupido: 7:09

And let's dig in on stretch assignments, you know, because I think and I'm familiar with this term, but some might not be. So describe what you would define as a stretch assignment.

Stephanie Hun: 7:18

Yeah, that's so good. So I think, you know, whether it's in construction or not, stretch assignment typically is a task that is not part of your everyday. So it's out of the norm. And perhaps it's something that, you know, a level or two above you, you know, a role of that sort, that's that's a typical assignment that might be assigned to that person. So if you're, say, for example, a coordinator level and somebody, you know, has assigned you something that an ordinarily a manager would be doing, that's, you know, seen as a stretch assignment. And so you're punching above your weight, really. I love that.

Amanda Cupido: 7:51

And, you know, and I think an important addition to that definition is that if you don't want to go so far that you're completely out of depth because then it's just anxiety inducing, really. And so it's like you want to stretch. And I like that you gave that example of, you know, like maybe it's a coordinator stretching into a manager rather than a coordinator trying to do something C-suites are working on, you know, and and not setting yourself up to fail, right? You want to just be stretching in that area of growth.

Stephanie Hun: 8:21

Exactly. I mean, you don't want to do be a disservice either uh to the company or yourself. And so it has to be, it still has to be a win-win. Yeah.

Amanda Cupido: 8:28

Love that. Has to be a win-win. That's uh that's a good um measure there. Okay, so let's talk about emotional intelligence in the industry. I think a lot of times that's attributed to women. That's also not always the case. But talk about how are you finding the industry as a whole? And do you feel like there's a lack of emotional intelligence in general in in workplaces?

Stephanie Hun: 8:50

You know, it's interesting because I think when I first started, it was very much like emotion. Why? Why would you even think of bringing emotion to the workplace? You know, this is where where you you hang your hat on the door and you bring your best foot forward and you tackle everything with logic and rationale and emotion. Why? But I think the thing is that with the way we use emotion and with women, sometimes it comes across as weak, you know, like it's weak to be to show emotion. But the thing is that it can also be conveyed as like being passionate and caring. And I think construction since its inception was really dominated by men, right? And it still is to some extent. And there was a, you know, a certain archetype if you wanted to join this industry and to like really excel. And I think the emotional intelligence piece is like empathy, listening, you know, an awareness. Like that's what we're talking about sometimes when we're talking about emotional intelligence. And really, like that's the foundation of good leadership, like being well-rounded, isn't it? It's like not just being technically savvy and being a great site super or you know, leading teams off-site as or in-house. What we're seeing too, to kind of like augment that is a shift in contract models and construction. So a lot of contract models that clients are using does involve like collaborative models. So that means like more progressive design build or you know, um, alliance models. And the thing is that what I'm seeing is that the client wants to spend more time on evaluating behaviors in certain situations. So that is where strong emotional intelligence and having a good, well-rounded view on your team, yourself is is really helpful.

Amanda Cupido: 10:35

Yeah. Well said. Oh, that's so good. So as the industry continues to evolve, you even talk about the differences you've noticed early career to current day in your career. Like, talk about that evolution and um what are you predicting will happen in the near future?

Stephanie Hun: 10:53

Oh, yeah. So I think, you know, one thing I'll remark on is like early on in my career, I mean, there wasn't no such thing as women resource groups. Um, there wasn't even like a differentiation with that. I think it, you know, there was a social club and that was it. Like, you know, maybe if you're a progressive, there was an environmental club, okay. But I think as as in the last five, five years or so, even, there's been a lot more women in construction type organizations. You know, there's women's infrastructure network, there's Canadian Construction Women, there is women transportation, you know, there's the women in Beavers, like there's so many support promotion type organizations that now kind of facilitate women development and try to promote and profile the diversity in women leaders. And I think that's one of the biggest changes I've seen.

Amanda Cupido: 11:43

And do you feel like those efforts are really genuine and rooted? Do you feel like some are just doing it for optics or to check a box? How what's your sense?

Stephanie Hun: 11:53

That's such a great question. I think I know. I these organizations are are almost always volunteer run. So, you know, it's it's it's and it's typically led by women for women and and allies. And I don't want to exclude the allieship piece, but you know, I think the fact that it's volunteer run, I mean, it's basically passionate leaders in the industry that want to do good and and support and serve our community.

Amanda Cupido: 12:20

That's so nice to hear. Let's talk more about allyship. If there's a male manager or some C-suite executives listening to this podcast right now who are thinking, oh gosh, maybe I gotta step up my game a bit in, you know, doing more outreach or more inclusive pathways in the workplace. What advice would you have for someone who's not really intentionally built this into their everyday or to their leadership style?

Stephanie Hun: 12:47

Yeah, no, it's so good. I think it's, you know, showing up is half the battle. You know, showing up to your colleagues, you know, maybe it's a women's infrastructure or women construction event, social event, you know, being being part of that crowd, being and hearing kind of some of the messaging that's going on and being privy to some of the challenges that women construction face is a good start. I would say that's the first thing. The second piece would be to lead with mindfulness. And, you know, if there's a woman in your room, they may have a different approach, you know, think of them. Um maybe there's a particular stretch assignment. Again, as we mentioned previously, that, you know, would suit them well. I mean, the thing is the majority of the people at the top at the C-suite level are still men or identify as males. And so we need them to be our allies, bring us up. You know, think of us when we're not in the room. I mean, that's that's where we're trying to get to is you know, think of our development behind closed doors.

Amanda Cupido: 13:49

And I think it's quite interesting when you look at some of the research that when people look to mentor someone or sponsor someone, they tend to just gravitate to people who look like them. That is a mirror of them. And that's, you know, ingrained, and there's so much that has led to that. And and if that's been happening, okay. But maybe really being intentional to go, I'm gonna pick one more person to have under my wing that really doesn't look like me. And, you know, just starting there.

Stephanie Hun: 14:20

It's it's interesting because I think it's it's kind of like I I mean, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but it's interesting because we kind of tend to do like for like. So we gravitate to people that are like us, we, you know, that like the same pastimes, that like the same, you know, whatever hobbies. And but it becomes very homogenous because you're all the same, you think all the same. And that doesn't necessarily tackle the problem at hand because if you're all thinking the same, there's you got some blind spots.

Amanda Cupido: 14:48

Yeah, and we know that diversity of thought is what makes organizations stronger. And because obviously, too, your clients and the people you're serving and working for are not homogenous. So you want to be able to represent properly, no matter what industry you're in. Yeah. So paint a picture of a future in construction. Like, what would be an ideal scenario as far as women representation for you? Also, what do you think is realistic within your span of the rest of your career?

Stephanie Hun: 15:18

You know, I think it's a good problem to have a lot more, like it'd just be a good problem, wouldn't it, if there was just a lot more women focused employee resource groups. But I think the day where we don't have to be labeled as a women-specific focused group, and it's just, you know, it's natural, it's part of the the plan, it's, you know, part of the blueprint, that's success because now you're not solving a problem. You're just you're running with it, you're enhancing, you know, representation because it just comes naturally.

Amanda Cupido: 15:52

Yeah. And so he gave some advice for men who might have been listening and are wanting to take some active steps. And now maybe if there's other women in the industry who look up to you who are listening, what advice would you give to them as they try to navigate?

Stephanie Hun: 16:06

So I would say you network, you know, use social media, use like all the platforms that are your disposal, all the organizations that are out there, because there are guaranteed there are people like you that, you know, want exposure because that that's really important, right? Growing your profile, growing your brand, developing that brand equity, finding the right mentorship program for yourself, right? Is it, are you getting paired with the right type of mentor? You know, because I think it needs to, like again, it needs to be a win-win. What do you want out of the mentorship? Where do you, where do you see yourself? Even if you course correct, that's okay. But just have a think about maybe the next, you know, three to five years, you know, where do you want to be? There's no right or wrong answer. So I would say, you know, that leveraging all this the women's focused associations and industry groups that are out there. I love that.

Amanda Cupido: 16:57

All right. Well, kind of drawing back to what you said, you know, casting a vision for a future where we don't have to have a woman's networking group because the networking groups just have women and men, and it's just a nice mix. And I think that's realistic. I love to cast a vision for that as well. But even then for this podcast, you know, I think it's important to talk to you not only as a woman in the industry, but also just about the industry because you are in it and a thought leader in your own right. And so where do you think the construction industry is going as a whole? Cast a vision for that future for us.

Stephanie Hun: 17:30

It'll be very interesting. I think on the technology front, you know, we're seeing, we're seeing a lot more businesses deploy teams focused on AI. So how are we using AI? How do we leverage AI? Do we really are we finding the right ways to, you know, harness like the power of AI? And so, but also like, what does that look like in the office, outside of the office? I think, you know, some of those things are are really critical and important. I think the other thing too is like data centers. Uh, we're seeing a lot of that in the US. But what about in Canada? I could see a lot of the future kind of, you know, hinged on on developing and constructing uh data centers as it relates to the increased usage of AI. I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand. That's probably gonna be like the very near future. I mean, we kind of laughed at uh driverless cars, but uh it's here. So it'll be interesting. I think that's that's construction. It's um I do feel also that we're gonna build faster because we're gonna um you know automate a lot of more things. Yeah.

Amanda Cupido: 18:40

That's great. All right. We end every episode with a curveball question. So this is the one we've got for you. There are many unspoken rules in this industry. So if you could rewrite some of them or one of them, what would you change and why?

Stephanie Hun: 19:00

Oh my gosh. So I think there's a certain element of mirroring. But what I mean by that is have a watch. Like, you know, be be observant. See how your male leaders convey their message. There are certain words that they use, there are certain ways that they negotiate or tackle a problem. That is very helpful, borrowing some of that language, some of the terminology they use. But I think the best thing is leaning into presenting information that's factual and logical, because that's gonna appeal to the masses, especially in a room where most of the time majority are men and they're just there to listen to the facts, right? So that's that's probably one of the um unwritten rules. I think the other one too is, you know, on the wardrobe side. I think as much as we want to be creative and everything like that, but construction is still quite conservative. So I think wanting to dress professionally while still leaning and being feminine is okay. Because we want to make sure we're not detracting away from our message. Because we uh I think as women we have very small windows to articulate what we're trying to say. So, you know, before we lose the message. And I think the last thing is how we convey what we're trying to say on the language side. So instead of saying I think, you know, use words like I know. This helps with like the, you know, being a little more authoritative to claim without kind of backlash and and remove words like just in your emails, right? Like we don't need to use just. That's diminishing your thought process. Be more fact-based. And be more about, you know, you're not looking for community consensus. Maybe that's not what you're looking for. You're being direct. It's okay to be direct, you know, as long as you're focused and and logical.

Amanda Cupido: 20:45

Oh, great. That's a perfect mic drop moment. We'll wrap it right there. Thank you so much, Stephanie. And thank you for tuning in to People Before Machines conversations on the chaos of factory automation powered by Eclipse. We're here to challenge the status quo in factory automation because machines don't build factories. People do. The technical producer for this podcast is Ryan Dentinger. I'm Amanda Cupido. If you got something out of today's episode, we'd love it if you share it with a teammate, a plant leader, or anyone who is tired of the automation echo chamber. Be sure to follow this podcast for real talk, bold questions, and sharp insights. And remember, the future isn't fully automated. It's people powered. See you next time.

Stephanie Hun: 21:32

Thanks for listening to People B4 Machines.

Amanda Cupido: 21:34

Dialogues on the chaos of factory automation. For past podcast episodes, search People B4 Machines on Spotify, YouTube, or visit EclipseAutomation.com.