Episode Twelve - Bridging the gap: Removing barriers to outdoor coaching

‘When I started looking at all of this, I did have that presumption that everyone can access nature. Nature is there for everyone, and unpacking that unconscious bias is really powerful and really important, and recognising, wow, I didn't know that, but now I do know that. And, I'm going to try to do something about that, because that's really important to me’ 

Ruth Geddes, coach & supervisor with a passion for equity 

‘Is outdoor coaching an accessible and equitable practice?’

Driven by the threads of nature, equity and outdoor coaching Ruth Geddes posed this question for her Masters research project at the University of East London despite considerable personal and professional discomfort. Her conversations with coaches and clients revealed the gap which exists with seen and unseen, spoken and unspoken conscious and unconscious needs. She invites coaches to ponder the following questions: 

• Who may feel excluded from my coaching practice and why?
• How could I be proactive in adapting my marketing and coaching practice to increase accessibility?
• When looking around a local nature space, see it with fresh eyes. Can everyone access this space? If not, why not?

The roots of her mantra ‘informed by psychology, inspired by nature’ can be traced back to a wee village on the east coast of Scotland with fond memories from the beach, rock pools and sea. Ruth is on a mission to spread awareness on equity, inclusivity, safety and belonging within the outdoor coaching realm. 

Bio: Ruth Geddes is a Positive Psychology practitioner with an MSc in Applied Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, a Senior Practitioner Coach accredited by the EMCC and an accredited supervisor. Her research explored barriers to participation in outdoor coaching, with a particular focus on accessibility and inclusion.

Ruth’s coaching integrates evidence-based positive psychology with nature-based approaches, helping people reconnect with themselves and nature through the often-overlooked magic of everyday outdoor spaces.

Alongside her coaching practice, Ruth works in Higher Education as a Wellbeing Team Manager.

Her work is informed by psychology, inspired by nature.

Ruth Geddes Coaching

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Resources: 

Conceptual article in Journal of Positive Psychology - Outdoor Coaching – an Accessible and Equitable Practice? Ruth Geddes, MSc., Alison Bishop, PhD - Journal of Positive Psychology Coaching (JPPC) Vol 3, 2026

Dr Alison Bishop

To find out more:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Rooted in Rising Podcast. I'm your host, Anna Marie, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to join us today. In these conversations, we'll explore stories that trace our roots and what rises within us as coaches and human beings in connection with our natural world. Join our journey to discover your roots and what's rising within you. Today it is Friday the 13th, and I just love the fact that we're recording an episode on Friday the 13th. Um, yeah, I'm Anna Marie, your host. I hope you are well wherever you are in the world today. And today I am joined by Ruth, and I would love for her to introduce herself in however she feels appropriate, fit, desires on this morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Good morning. Thank you very much for having me here today. I'm also quite excited by it being Friday the 13th. My name is Ruth. I'm a positive psychology coach. I specialise in outdoor and nature coaching. I'm also a qualified supervisor, and I work as a team manager in student well-being in Heiji, as well as a few other bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

As well as a few other bits and pieces. And yeah, as coaches within this realm, we often have a number of strings to our bow and operate on a portfolio eclectic style of working. But before we go into you and the particular reason as a starting point why I wanted to have this conversation today, let's just honour the roots of the podcast and centre ourselves in time and space today. So, Ruth, where are you? And how is your day unfolding? And yeah, what's coming up for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Well, um, physically, location-wise, I'm in the south coast of England. Currently, I'm sitting in my conservatory. It's quite a bright yet slightly grey day. I've had quite a busy morning. I do a school morning, school run morning on a Friday. Um, and then from now it's kind of my time today on a Friday to do lovely things like this.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Thank you for that. And I'm I'm joined for my Somerset abodes. Yeah, and it's been quite a I've had a couple of coaching clients this morning already today online, reaching across the world. And yeah, you never know what might emerge in a coaching conversation, and I think that is part of the beauty of it all. And I am such a strong advocate of research within the nature and outdoor coaching space, it is sorely, sorely needed. So just to plant a seed to our listeners that if this is something that you are curious about, just really listen in and also reach out. And that's what I find within the coaching community is the support that is needed for research to take place. We really need coaches who are willing to take part in interviews and questionnaires to share their clients because ultimately this is how we then get the evidence moving forward. So it's something that we can all contribute to. I will hands up admit I am not an academic by any means. I have one master's in teaching, and that is more than enough for me. I have no desire to go and do. And as a practitioner, I am really, really passionate about encouraging people if this is their path. So clearly, this was your path. This is what you chose. Um, and yeah, maybe just a bit of context into making that decision to step into the academic space and do and do the research, and then we can get more into the nitty-gritty details, which I know some people will love about how the research project unfolded, and then clearly have an insight into your results as we flow.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

It's interesting you say that that's something that I chose. I feel like it's something that's organically grown around me getting doing my research and the study. Um, but yes, I decided, so I did a psychology degree years and years ago as an as an undergrad um and then did a uh postgraduate certificate kind of in my late 20s, but I returned to research um in my 40s. I returned to study in my 40s uh to do my master's degree because I felt very drawn to it. I felt very much like it was something that I'd always wanted to do and never quite had an opportunity to sort of complete it. It felt something unfinished, I think. Um so I have been, I would say I've been coaching for a long, long, long, long time. Probably, well, in different in different kinds of ways, probably about 20 years or so I did a lot of worked outdoors in lots of different ways as well. Um, and coming back to my to my master's kind of brought all those threads together, and it was something that I was looking for to give me um a real grounded and sort of you know, thinking about roots. Yeah, I wanted it to give me a real sort of grounding and a real roots so that I could really feel confident in my practice and in my coaching practice. So I returned to study and I was doing I did a master's online with uh the University of East London because again, my where I am and my parenting would not have allowed me to do anything sort of in person. So it really opened up an opportunity. And throughout that time, throughout my studies, um, I took every opportunity to look at nature practice, to look at coaching, to look at positive psychology interventions to do with nature. Um I wove it through everything that I was learning because it's something that's really been very nature is something I'm really passionate about. It's something that I love. I love nature, I love being in nature, I feel very much of nature as well. It wove together lots of different things, and I loved the fact that there was lots of things that I intuitively felt, there was lots of things that I felt drawn to that I could then also put an evidence-based to and an evidence-based practice to. And I loved that it sort of brought together those two things, very much so. And as I was sort of studying, I was also um working, uh, I was working alongside my studies and I was doing some outdoor work in that space as well. And that's when I started um really looking and thinking about if I'm outdoors and I'm I'm working outdoors, how do I make sure that this work outdoors is really safe, it's really inclusive, it's going to allow everybody who wants to be outdoors to feel comfortable and feel like they belong and feel safe to come and work outdoors in this sort of well-being coaching world. And that's where those two kind of things aligned and came together. So I was already working outdoors, I was then studying and learning more about outdoors and evidence-based practice, and then I started looking more and more at the research, obviously, as you do. I started looking at the research about the benefits of being outdoors, the research that's just starting about the benefits of outdoor coaching. I was then looking at there's lots of research about barriers to participating in nature spaces. And I just seemed that felt that there was this kind of gap between where are those voices that aren't being heard, if there is, if there is evidence of gaps of participation in nature spaces, then surely something's got to translate across. There must be some people that don't feel for whatever reason that they might be able to access outdoor coaching. And I think outdoor coaching is a really beautiful practice. So I suppose it's part of me wanting to advocate and wanting to make sure as much as I can as a practitioner that everybody who wants to be able to access outdoor coaching can do. So by exploring a little bit more about the barriers that might be there, that was obviously my intention about my research is to try to sort of raise that, raise that awareness, have those conversations and look to can we make this a really inclusive and accessible practice?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

And it is such an important space. And just having been within this world for a number of years, there is a lack of conversation on this topic, I I feel. So that's why I really believe that the work that you've done is so important, and to then to share it so that you have a voice, others have a voice, so that ultimately change happens, and the results that you've come through, which we'll come to in a moment, it's it is it's very much around raising awareness, and it's always interesting just to get that thread as to well what drew you to that research topic. Because even just narrowing that down and making that decision when you're about to embark on this research project which then becomes your life for a number of months is a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Absolutely, it does, it consumes you, I think, your research, which is why it's really important to be really passionate about it. And it was definitely something when you when you look at lots of different research topics as you're doing, you're kind of, you know, thinking, oh, I could do this, I could do that. But it has to be something that really fires you up, it has to be something that excites you. And as I was looking and kind of looking at these different threads, and you know, like many people do, getting big pieces of paper and sort of nature was in the middle. I knew I wanted to study something about nature, I knew I wanted to study something about outdoor coaching. So I had all these kind of threads and all these different things that were were really interesting to me. There was an article about coaching, about making sure coaching was sort of uh having those conversations about equity and coaching, um, and then there was this research about uh about nature. And for me, this kind of picture just sort of started to form, and there was this this little gap. There was just this little gap. And I was like, oh, that that's really exciting then. That's that to me, it really fueled me. It was really made me uh very sort of um passionate. And yes, you put a lot of time and energy into the the your research, your final research project. So it does have to be something that you you feel is you can be passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

So just just kind of maybe walk and talk us through the the research project as a process, it just kind of coming together. So we've got a bit of an insight into what you went through.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Gosh, well I'm obviously it's going back a few years now. If I pick up all the different threads of those things, there was because it was, it was about weaving together threads. There was all these separate sort of parts, if you like, and it seemed to just sort of weave things together. So it was that it was where I was personally that I was using nature to support my own well-being and seeing the real benefits of that. There was conversations I was having in my workplace about outdoors, that's effectively sort of academic culture, well-being well-being coaching for academic success in sort of HE, looking at using outdoors, looking at doing different well-being interventions, looking at groups outdoors, how can we make sure that we are holding that space and making sure that that is psychologically safe for all of our students who want to access that? There were conversations with friends, a close friend of mine who um has long-term health conditions and mobility issues, and talking about sort of her experiences about nature. Then there was research, there's looking a lot at um uni doing lots of different reading, um, opening up, going down rabbit holes in terms of research articles and different things, and um and pretty just bringing all of that together and that sense of wanting to ultimately wanting to make the better world a better place as well, that sense of equality, diversity, equity, about wanting to make sure that my practice aligns with my values, my personal values, um, and all of that sort of bringing that together. I knew I wanted to talk to people as well. I knew I wanted to do something that it was a conversation. I think uh quantitative analysis uh and research hugely beneficial, has a massive place, obviously, but I'm very much more qualitative. I love conversations. I'm a coach, so I love conversations. I love hearing people's stories and hearing those voices. So I knew I wanted to have conversations as part of my research. So it was um interpretive phenomenological analysis that I used. Um so it just, yeah, it just brought together lots and lots of threads of who I am as a person, who I was in work, who I was um in as a student, um, and brought all those things together.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

And actually kind of bringing that together and then really forming the thesis, the question, and really kind of dialing that down. And I've got it written down what the question actually was. Um the research focus. What can we learn from coaches and coaches regarding barriers to participation in outdoor coaching to inform future practice? So just refining that question in itself from your big notebook.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yes. So that I mean, the question itself went through quite a few iterations, obviously, because so initially I only wanted to speak to coaches. And um my initial sort of um call for participants that went out was about outdoor coaching. Can you see yourself here? Do you feel like you fit? There was a question about kind of fitting in that space. And I think it was after about six months, it was a long time. I I just wasn't wasn't getting a lot of people coming back and saying, yes, I'm interested in outdoor coaching, but I don't feel I belong in that space. And I and I I I tried a lot of different recruitment methods in lots of different ways. And it was a conversation I had with my supervisor. She, so Dr. Allison Bishop, she she was fantastic as my supervisor because she really got it. She really understood where I was coming from. We started using more of the phrase about barriers to participation because also as a researcher, you obviously you think you have this idea, but you you you need to you need to go with what you're finding from your research. You don't want to put your thoughts into your research and then just think, oh yes, this is all reflecting back at me. I'm I'm right. You want to be finding out from people what their voices are, and and you have this sort of idea of a question, but you're finding out whether that's true or not, and whether there's other things that are sort of coming from the research. It's about allowing that to speak to you. But we started using more of the phrase about barriers to participation in sort of my call for participants, and then we had we had this conversation about yes, obviously it's interesting to find out that those questions from a um participant from a coachy perspective, but it's also interesting to hear from coaches as well, because I know there'll be other coaches working in this area that have this understanding of offering outdoor coaching as an equitable practice. So we shifted a little bit, and that's why we we ended up with six participants, but three that were coaches and three that were coaches. So the the research question sort of did obviously the the original kind of research question shifted over time as things sometimes do. Um, but ultimately it was it was about finding out you know what what are those barriers to participation for outdoor coaching, but what ultimately do people feel like they fit or belong in that space?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

And the sample size there with six within the research, and and and this is kind of a broader observation as well around other research into outdoor coaching. The sample sizes do tend to be quite small.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Oh, it is, it's very wee. It's a but it's a very small-scale study, and obviously it's even smaller when you think about it. I actually only had three uh coaches and three coaches, um, and that actually, you know, in terms of further research, they are two very different groups of people. The research could have, you know, I think you could take that further. You could look at, you know, a bigger group of coaches offering outdoor coaching to sort of to get more views in that space. You could also look at more people that want to access outdoor coaching but don't feel like they can, or maybe feel like they have have to ask maybe for it to be adapted, etc., and do more some research in that space. So I think my research just is kind of, it feels like it's just kind of highlighted maybe the the tip of an iceberg. There's an awful lot more to do in that space. And I think um it would be really interesting. I would really love to, I would really love to to publish the full research, because the article that's been being published is just about the story behind why I'm doing what, why I did what I did. So for the full research to be published, I think would be lovely, and I am sort of pursuing that. But I would really love for other people to take this up as well and to sort of, you know, be inspired by this and go, oh wow, you know, that's that's quite interesting. What else can we do to look at this? Because I think, you know, there are experiential, they are structural, and they are cultural barriers to accessing outdoor coaching. That's what the sort of the tentative conclusions that I've made. Those the participants were clearly sort of demonstrating that that is the case in outdoor coaching. Uh, there's a lot of that that the research about those kind of barriers in terms of UK nature spaces. So I think there's just a there's a lot there that could still be looked at and could be taken further, very, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And as you say, this is the tip of the iceberg, and you have taken a step as a part of okay, Carrie's right. This is an area, and there is so much scope as to where we could go with this. Yes. And I just also really want to signpost the article that you mentioned that has been published. So there was a conceptual reflective article that was published in the Journal of Positive Psychology Coaching. And I will make sure that that is linked in the show notes and on the website episode page as well, because it has a really concise overview and it has some great call to action questions at the end as well. So, whether there's more to say on the research and the results that you discovered, and then talking about the kind of the call to action, the floor is yours.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

In terms of the research, I think the thing that I would say that spoke to me most from the the fabulous participants that took their time and energy um to speak to me. I'm very, very grateful for them and for sharing their voices. There were big gaps. I think that's the thing that really comes to mind, first of all, to share. There was a big gap. The clients, the participants that were clients, all of them had a love of nature. They really were interested in nature, they knew that there were benefits for being out in nature, but they just felt that they they were having to potentially ask for adjustments or ask for more information, that they were having to sort of move sort of towards and they felt that that was a real barrier. The use of walk and talk was a real barrier. Um and this moving sort of and asking for for adjustments to be made just replicated a lot of challenges that they already experienced in their lives about having to ask for adjustments to be made in workplaces and accommodations, etc. And the coaches, on the other hand, that I was speaking to that were offering outdoor coaching were like, oh my God, we're absolutely, you know, we can do this, we can do that, we can all people need to do is ask, and I'll be, I can do make all these changes. So, and there seemed to be just this gap between these two fabulous groups of people, both of them wanting the same thing, which was accessing nature and accessing outdoor coaching. But the participants were saying, you know, come come more towards me, offer me things, provide upfront information, really set out, set out your stand to say, you know, on a website or on your marketing, set out to say I am inclusive or I'm will I'm wanting to work with different people, these are all the different things that adaptations that I could make, etc. It's not necessarily about saying A meets B and we'll we'll do this. It's about it was about working together, it was about co-creating. And if coaches can have that setting out their stand about inclusivity and about the ability for outdoor coaching to be an amazingly equitable practice, that would sort of bridge the gap somehow, and that those people could come together in a way that then they could. Co-create, making it really individual about what it means for that person, whether that's doing some nature coaching online initially and looking at bringing nature in in different ways, whether that's making sure that the places that you meet have access to toilets, access to car parking, access to accessible air paths, whether it means being sort of looking at sort of different energy levels. You could be planning an outdoor session, but then maybe needing to move it online to sort of uh adapt to where somebody is on any given day. There's lots and lots of things that can be done. It was these these two groups of people that just seemed to be this weak gap between. And a lot of that was about marketing of outdoor coaching in terms of the visuals of marketing about and especially the the use of the phrase sort of walk and talk, that seemed to be a particular challenge. So there was loads of amongst you know, everything that we talked about, one of the beautiful things from both the coaching participants and the coach participants is there was so much hope, there was so much positivity about all these different ways that it could be a really accessible and a really inclusive practice. Um everybody was really solution-focused. I mean, it was positive psychology coaching, is what's uh what what I practice. So it was really beautiful to naturally see through the conversations that we're having. People were being really positive. This was a challenge, it was a real challenge that had affected clients, the client participants in lots of different ways. But they were also really positive about it. They were really solution-focused. There was lots of things that they could think of, there was lots of things that the coaches could think of. It was just about bridging that gap and bringing those conversations together. And again, about weaving things together. There was very much this thread of we need to weave these things together and have more of these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And indeed, we are having a conversation today. And I really hope that if you are listening in and this is sparking interest as well, that you know, reach out to Ruth, have a conversation, continue the conversation, and also have this as a reflection on your practice, and really hearing this piece around the walk and talk. And I do find that the labeling, the messaging behind any individual coaches' practice, and how that really gives an insight into their philosophy, the pragmatic side of how they work, and that will shift and change and evolve over time as well. So just kind of bringing it back, and you've given us some of those amazing examples already. Any further like on a kind of a call to action and advice that you could give our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I first of all just want to say I don't always get it right. I'm not perfect in my practice in any in any way, but um it's given me a lot of insight. The conversations that I had have given me a lot of insight in terms of my practice. And I think in terms of the call to actions and and the the thinking about that article, the article that has been published, it is just reflecting. As a coach, it's it's reflecting and thinking, looking at our marketing, looking at our social media posting, whatever it might be, looking at how we do things, you know, who could who might feel excluded from my coaching practice and why? Because there might well be. How could I be more proactive and adapting my marketing and coaching practice to increase accessibility? It's that pro-action and it being the coach's responsibility to move that forwards. And then the other the other thing was very much about looking around our local nature spaces. I'm I'm a big fan of local nature spaces, those amazing sort of city parks, or I'm I'm lucky to live um near some fabulous blue space, but looking around those spaces ourselves when we're out and about, when we're in nature, seeing it with fresh eyes, can everyone access this space? Is that accessible? And if not, why not? I think they're really good questions to ask ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

And thank you for sharing them. And we will, again, I will put them in the show notes, the link through to that. And yeah, one person cannot know all the answers by any means. And it's almost the more I move through life within my coaching and beyond, the more I realize that actually I don't know, and that in itself is incredibly humbling and a real reminder just to really pause and not, you know, for me project whether that's judgment expectation, and just to have that real thread of curiosity, which for me is a value that remains at the heart of everything that I do and I aim to be. And yeah, you know, we're all only humor.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Absolutely. And Anna Marie, that's something very much, and again, I spoke about this in the article, that that that understanding that we don't know everything, that very much was part of the story of what I was doing. Because when I started looking at all of this, I did have that presumption that, you know, nature, everyone can access nature, nature is there, it's there for everyone. And unpacking that unconscious bias, I think, is really, really powerful and really important, and recognizing, wow, I didn't I didn't know that, but now I do know that. And now, okay, I'm gonna try to do something about that because that's really important to me, that realization, that insight, that curiosity. I didn't know that, but now I do, and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna do something about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Just kind of want to almost circle back. So on your website, you describe yourself as informed by psychology, inspired by nature. And I just thought that's just a beautiful little kind of strapline as an insight into you. And that in itself says so much about you that inspired by nature. And I also just like to pull that little thread a little bit more and talk um about your nature connection and maybe just going back into early relationship with nature and how that has shifted and evolved.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Oh, absolutely. So, nature, yes, I am inspired by nature, I'm inspired by nature, um, I am humoured by nature, I am held by nature. Nature is very, very powerful for me. My early, early days of connecting with nature. So I grew up in a sort of a we um Scottish village on the east coast of Scotland. And for me as a child, nature was just all around. Um, we were always rock pooling um on the beach, in the sea. Scottish summers are fabulous, they really are. We used to go to log cabins when I moved sort of further up into Scotland as well, and there was weekends I used to go skiing. Yeah, nature to me has brought me a lot of joy very much. And certainly at times in my life, which have been very, very challenging, I've both turned to nature, but also felt that nature has called me back. There's there's been times that it's like everybody, life gets busy, you do different things, and I feel when there's that disconnect, I feel pulled back to sort of reconnect very much so. Yeah, in nature, I've got some very, very fond, happy memories of nature as a child and all through my life, and now also for my children as well, trying to impart that uh that nature connection for them.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

And for a moment, you transported me back to an element of my childhood where we would go to the Isle of Jura, which is on the west coast of Scotland every May half term. And my father was a far runner, and if any of you listening in know anything about me, there's a running theme going on in my life. Um and yeah, similarly, hunting for crabs off the pier and going canoeing to the islands and building dens, and it it is it's almost I'm very aware of then well, what element of that is that idyllic pink sunglasses childhood that I am looking through. And also that's my lived experience, and again, that has shaped my trajectory, and not everyone has had that. No, and particularly now, as we're looking at different generations and how much time is spent in nature and how much freedom is spent in nature, and I haven't got the facts to hand, and that shift in relationship, and you know, for me, I believe here ultimately we are nature, I am nature, so there is no division, and yet the way that we live our lives is increasingly disassociated with nature, living in little boxes and the like. And I'm kind of conscious in in your work as well, you do work within higher education as well, within the well-being space. And would just love to go a little bit there as to how that clearly it weaves, it complements the coaching work, whether you're willing just to how you maintain and integrate the different facets of working.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

So I've worked in HE, yeah, about 10 years now, as you say, working in student well-being. Um, I think I look at my nature coaching practice and I look at what I do in sort of my day-to-day work, I suppose, for one of the better phrase. Um, and they do complement one another, although they're very sort of different things. I lead a team now, and I'm very much embedding positive psychology practice in their work and in what they do. They're uh fantastic and do a lot of amazing uh work. I work in a multidisciplinary team, so there's lots of different aspects to what we do. Um, it requires maybe more of my my brain, my thinking sort of side of stuff, I suppose, whereas my coaching work that I do when I'm coaching in nature is very much more heart-led, I think. Underneath them both is that rooted structure of um evidence-based practice, very, very much so. But I think, you know, to use an analogy of nature, as you see sort of things rising up and and sort of growing through, they're slightly different. I don't know whether I could use the analogy, they're slightly different trees or they're slightly different branches of the same tree. There is a there's there's me, obviously, in my practice, my evidence-based practice, that is at the the base of both of those things, but the way they are expressed are two sort of very different things. I think trying to bring in nature connection um into student well-being work is sort of um uh something I'm really excited about. We're very lucky where we are that we have green spaces around us, we have blue spaces, and there's a lot of different um different networks where I am, where uh there's lots of other people also looking about the benefits of nature connection and the benefits of bringing that into uh student well-being. And I obviously use those spaces for my own well-being when I'm in work, to get out, to do things for myself when I'm when I'm in work. And then I also um use some of those local nature spaces separate to that when I in my own sort of private coaching practice as well. So they seem to be, yeah, branches of the same tree, all rooted in that evidence-based coaching practice, positive psychology, benefits of nature, whatever I'm doing, whether I'm supervising, whether I'm delivering training, whether I'm doing things in work, generally there's there's something about nature. I might speak about nature in some way, it just kind of comes through. It just, you know, I'll either be responding to what's given to me, or maybe I'll share something in an analogy or a metaphor. Um so it's woven through everything that I do, I would say. Even even if on the surface they might seem two very different things, there's there's definitely a connection there.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

And for for you listening in, it might be just that appreciation that, well, actually, yes, there may be different jobs, roles, responsibilities that I am showing up in maybe different organizations or with different clients. And again, what threads can be pulled through into that, and actually what lies at the very heart of it. And that's why I've always always been keen with the conversations on this podcast is it's like like at the heart of it. Like what what is it that kind of roots you, what really kind of draws draws you? It is like a deep part of your identity, and actually how your research has kind of been like an extension of that, and then how can that then be integrated into the different parts, and you know, full respect as to how you bridge these different worlds from higher education, which it the work that you're doing within student well-being is so so sorely needed, and then also creating this own coaching brand business for yourself. And again, I'm always it it strikes me when I do meet coaches that side hustle, I think for one of a better word, yeah, transition into something different and and how it aligns.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, absolutely. It very much to me is it's it's it is about sort of head and heart, I suppose, for me. There's and the nature coaching, coaching with nature, in nature, having that sort of nature connection woven through a practice, um, is very it just very much is where my heart space is. It's very much where I'm pulled to be. Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

And with all that in mind, what is rising could rise within you looking ahead.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Well, I like balance, so I I like sort of the I like the idea of continuing to be able to balance and doing those two things. I kind of get the impression at some point I might have to make a choice about which path that I really need to sort of follow. But at the moment, balancing those two things is really important to me and both bring such value. I think what I love about nature coaching, it's it's very much it's something that I feel very inspired by, I feel very fueled by, I love the clients that I meet, I love what the work brings me, and it again it helps me balance in that it brings me energy in a way that maybe my my work, my work doesn't take energy from me, but it does take a lot. It's a it's a lot to do. So it's balancing kind of the giving and receiving. Um in the future, I would love to do some more research. I really would. Um I've got a very close friend of mine were in conversations about having a shared journey of doing our PhDs together, possibly. Um, but I think I'm I might I I want to wait another few years before doing that. But I love the I love the idea of bringing. So actually, I'm gonna sort of I'm gonna go back on what something I just said then when I'm thinking about having to maybe choose a path. Actually, I don't want to choose a path, I want to bring things together even more. I would love to look at doing a PhD, which brings together sort of the study aspects, it brings together I I work in H. E, it brings together student well-being, which I'm incredibly passionate about, and nature coaching and nature connection, and somehow bringing all of those together into one beautiful space to sort of really weave all of those threads together. I think that would be really beautiful in years to come.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

You heard it here first, and I love the way you were like, oh, I'm gonna need to make a decision. There was like a little bit of a wait, well, that's what's going on there, and then there was like, oh, actually, maybe this is what I desire. A little seed, a little seed. Indeed. I I'm excited for you as to what could emerge and PhD studies is needed. So yeah, and any support that is needed, and I'm able to offer, and the community, the listeners, um, please do reach out because this is it needs the support of the community. You you can't do the PhD and the work on your own. And I have, and this is me going a little bit more into like the shadow side of coaching, um, and some coaches. I'm saddened, and I've you know, again, respect everyone's on their own journey and encourage people to to share and to at least share the information with clients that they could be involved, and then at least clients maybe have the decision if they don't or they not. Um, I have in the past known of some coaches being the barrier to the clients, which again the reasons behind I I don't know. So this is just uh a call to action for coaches to be open um where possible. Okay, what have we not touched on that would benefit that that maybe we've missed that you feel like, oh, actually we didn't go.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

The thing that's coming up for me there is just that just and again for myself and for coaches, there's there's so much that is coming out about natural spaces and nature spaces, etc. Just you know, keep keep looking at those things and keep reading them. Because I know that's what I do. I keep reading lots of things and thinking, oh, what does that what does that mean for coaching practice? What does that mean? So even when things might not seem properly kind of um aligned into your individual space, it's casting that net a little bit wider and looking at those other things. Yeah, that's what's that's what's coming up for me. So yeah, just being open and aware to lots of other things that can influence us and build our practice. I just want to say thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much for this conversation. Thank you very much for it. Always feels really validating when somebody else goes, Oh, you know what? That I'm really interested in that too. That seems like a really good conversation to have. So that's, you know, so th thank you very much for inviting me on and for having this conversation. I do feel very passionate about it. I love it when I meet other people that are also passionate about it. I love it when other people are um interested and are open to those conversations. Because sometimes conversations can make us feel a bit uncomfortable if we, you know, in terms of the article that you mentioned about, you know, the the question is, is it is outdoor coaching accessible and equitable practice? And, you know, I felt I felt quite vulnerable putting it out there because I was I was concerned it it might lead to discomfort. It's a bit of a provocative kind of title, but that's the whole point, isn't it? You know, I I've been made to feel uncomfortable in the past because I think of my my practice or what I've done. But again, it's that I know that now, I'm going to do better now, and that's my you know, my call to others as well. Let's look at this, let's look, let's have these conversations. That's really important. It's not about what we haven't done in the past, it's about what we can do in the future. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

And really want to acknowledge that provocatation, get the word out, and that uncomfortableness because I believe that is where the opportunity and the stretch lies ultimately. And just linking that very much to your comment around reading widely about nature connection and that flow of information from other disciplines.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

And I very believe that in the coaching world, if we just remain within our little coaching bubble, then actually, where do the new provocative ideas come from? We need to look elsewhere. Yes. And actually, when we do start looking into different research, there is a lot coming through at the moment. And just even on my LinkedIn thread yesterday, I was there was a number, there was a couple of different research articles that came through that I was like, oh, interesting. Again, I can put them in the show notes. Because that is where we then through reflective practice can go, okay, actually, what can be changed? Because this coaching niche, again, for want of a better word, and the words and the label sometimes don't, I feel, fully give justice to the world that we're in, and it's a starting point. We can only do the best that we can do in this moment in time. Absolutely. Ruth, it has been an absolute Pleasure. Thank you for taking the time. I would encourage listeners as well, just if you've not checked out the website version of the podcast, go and have a look at insights behind the scenes because there's some little shared nuggets of wisdom that all my guests share and a behind-the-scenes image as well, which I think beautifully illustrates some of your time up in Scotland. Um thank you. Clearly, it's not going to be Friday the 13th when you're listening into this. Um, but who knows what else might emerge on this on this beautiful spring day.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Thank you. Thank you very much indeed for having me on. It's been a real pleasure, Anne Marie. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

I'm always curious to discover what's resonated for you, or maybe what didn't quite align. Feel free to let me know. I'd be extremely grateful if you're able to comment, like or share, as it helps to spread the word. And looking to the future and staying connected, follow me on your favorite podcast platform. And finally, a big heartfelt thanks for being a part of this podcast Passion Project.