Imagine if - Regeneration, identity and coaching beyond the threshold

‘How can we overcome this polycrisis, if you like, the sort of disconnect with nature, the disconnect with each other, and the disconnect with self. How can coaching play a part in that?’ - Paul Rodwell, Regenerative Thinker & Coach

From the stunning Tramuntana Mountains of Mallorca, surrounded by Holm Oak and plum trees Paul Rodwell reflects on a life of service that has taken him from the luxury hotel industry in Chile’s Atacama Desert and Morocco’s Marrakech to the diplomatic world of the UK Civil Service and Foreign Office. 

Throughout his life encounters with Indigenous communities, sacred rituals and powerful landscapes have sparked a profound shift in how he understands identity, place and our relationship with the natural world.

Together, Anna-Marie and Paul explore themes of colonialism, belonging, spirituality and regeneration, and discuss how awe, silence and connection to place have shaped Paul's coaching philosophy. They examine the discomfort and possibility of liminal spaces, the growing movement towards coaching for nature, and how regenerative thinking might transform the future of the profession.

The conversation also explores professional coaching standards, Paul's alignment with the International Coaching Federation, the evolving role of AI in coaching, and a provocative question for the profession:

Is coaching still fit for purpose in a world facing ecological, social and spiritual challenges?

Bio

Paul Rodwell is a coach, coaching mentor and outdoor facilitator exploring how deeper connection — with nature, with each other, and with ourselves — might help both people and planet heal and thrive. Born in Kent, England, and now also a Spanish national, his life has been shaped by deep roots, movement and a quiet spirit of exploration.

Over the last thirty years, he has lived and worked across Europe, North Africa and Latin America, first through hospitality and wilderness travel — including managing the explora lodge in Chile’s Atacama Desert and also Aman in Marrakech — and later through sixteen years as a diplomat with the UK Foreign Office. Encounters with remote landscapes, indigenous cultures and people from very different walks of life deepened his curiosity about simplicity, presence and what human beings need in order to feel connected and alive.

Now rooted in Mallorca’s Tramuntana mountains with his family, Paul’s work centres on nature-connected coaching, retreats, regenerative leadership and co-creating a foundation exploring how reconnecting people with place might help villages in Mallorca flourish once again.

Website

LinkedIn

Instagram @paul_rodwell_inspires

Resources

Laura Storm / Regenerators Academy - Regenerative Leadership Journey, a year-long journey

Presencing Institute / Otto Scharmer 

u-school - courses such as Leading from the Emerging Future

Outdoor Facilitation course — Change in Nature

The Outdoor and Nature Coaches’ Handbook

Imagine If… by Sir Ken Robinson and Kate Robinson

Coaching Outdoors Podcast - Giles Hutchins 

To find out more:

www.rootedrisingpodcast.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Rooted in Rising podcast. I'm your host, Anna Marie, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to join us today. In these conversations, we'll explore stories that trace our roots and what rises within us as coaches and human beings in connection with our natural world. Join our journey to discover your roots and what's rising within you. If you are a listener who has been with us since the very beginning, you will know that we have taken a little break for a couple of months. And we're now back for season two. We will have just had the summer solstice in the northern hemisphere, though we're recording just a little bit before that. So having those two months of not recording, though still reaching out to future guests has been a welcome break. And I am now curious to see what is going to unfold in season two. So our guests for today. Welcome. I would love to know where you are physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually at this moment in time and space.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yeah. Um so I'm feeling really grateful for this podcast and for the listeners and for this space really, just to see what emerges. I'm curious as well and excited to some extent. And I'm sitting here or standing rather barefoot in my little office in the Tramontana Mountains in Mallorca, Spain. And I'm surrounded by beautiful trees of which I love. The home oak is probably my favorite. Um, but as I look out the window, there's this plum tree that we planted about four or five years ago, and it's just in full abundance at the moment, and it's never given us one plum, but today it's they're all ripe, and it just feels a beautiful moment to be grateful for what nature offers. And yeah, so I'm this little village as well in the mountains of Mallorca, which feels really, really beautiful and special.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Indeed, the mountains of Mallorca, an island that I have not visited yet, seems a world away from a rather grey and blustery somerset, which is sorely needed after the heat wave of last week. So to kickstart our conversations, Paul, I was caught on your website unsurprisingly by the sentence A journey rooted in people and purpose. So talk to us a little bit about that and what you do.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah. Well, first of all, I love people. I know it sounds weird, but I genuinely love people. And I guess a lot of my life I've been in service to some extent to people. Firstly, I I worked in the hotel industry, initially in a sort of more corporate environment, and then escaping that to work in what I would consider kind of almost anti-hotels, where there are sort of lodges in the Atacama Desert in Chile, or I ran a sort of Aman property in in Marrakesh and Morocco, but always in service to people, whether they be obviously the employees, uh the staff, but also the guests, um, and fascinated by that interaction between the two, um, particularly in the Atacama Desert. And then so following on from that was this again the service to people, where I became a diplomat, somewhat oddly, uh, and found myself really in yeah, in public service this time. I was working in what's called the consular world, which is when Brits get into trouble, essentially. It's the consular services globally that supports British people in trouble. And so, yeah, it's very much about supporting those people. In my case, it was about preventing incidents in the first place, which was a significant challenge. And I think, you know, coaching has also been part of that, firstly, as an internal coach with the civil service and the foreign office in the UK for almost 10 years, and then sort of breaking out of that and moving gently more into a nature-based approach, outdoor and yeah, connected with nature and perhaps shifting from that service to people to increasing a service to nature as well. And yeah, I think that's where I'm at in terms of purpose for me, in terms of yeah, really sensing that I want to make a positive impact in the world and the planet, and also help people, because I think we all need a bit of help now and then again, uh, particularly nowadays. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

And I am struck as well, the roots that you have have been in so many different places on our beautiful planet, and I can really associate that being a little bit of a nomad with my military career and then working in leadership development in the Middle East and Australia. And this notion of roots, and you know, for you as a Brit now living in Mallorca, how have you found that as you've traversed through life?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

So I think first of all, it's about I guess respect and immersion. I found that particularly in Morocco, where obviously the language is well, for me, was quite difficult to learn. Darijah, the sort of the dialect of Arabic they speak in Morocco. So again, it's this uh respect for place and culture and people. And again, I guess with the Atacama Desert, the indigenous Atacamenians, they're really connecting deeply to the way that they think and feel and sense. Um, but yeah, ultimately, I think there's been a sort of a shedding of identity. Um, I mean, yes, my roots was clearly in the UK, but sort of every journey I took, and again, not traveling, but living in these countries all across the world, I guess one, I didn't feel those roots, literally, but at the same time, I felt a connection and to the point that I think my identity kept on shifting with each experience. And ultimately, two years ago, three years ago, becoming Spanish. Uh so becoming a Spanish national, I didn't think it was going to really impact me very much, but looking back on it, I'm like, yeah, okay. I'm now Spanish, which I mean, the the listeners can't see, but I'm I definitely don't look particularly Spanish. And I'm six foot five, so it's not looking great in the kind of blending in kind of feel. But yeah, just learning the local language, so in Mallorca, in particular, some listeners may know, they speak Mallorcan Catalan, so it's the language they speak here, alongside Catalunya and Valencia. And yes, they speak Castilian Spanish, which is what most people consider Spanish Spanish. But just by learning Mallorcan Spanish, it's amazing how the doors kind of open gently. And yes, there's a bit of mistrust there, basically the way I look, but when you start opening up and deeply caring for this place, and I found that everywhere I went, you know, if you deeply care for their roots, and then somewhat extent you kind of acquire some roots from there. So yeah, I'm a collection of roots, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And you know, for me, I'm super conscious of the historic colonial impact that my nation has had on the planet, and really circling back to respect when actually there is such deep wounds in so many places, whether grief, anger, resentment, sadness, layers upon layers upon layers upon layers, and yet as English, my own indigenous tribes were assimilated into the Roman culture millennia ago. So there's this kind of displacement for us all on various levels, and yeah, just leaning into your experiences a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this regenerative journey all this year with Laura Storm, and one of the essential parts of that is basically unlearning what we've learned. Um, and obviously the story of colonialism is one very important part of not unlearning colonialism, but learning it correctly, perhaps more from uh, as you say, a sort of indigenous, um, the receivers of that. And having, I suppose, interesting enough, most of the countries I've lived in, it's been other cultures who've actually been the colonial uh the colonial elements. So whether in Chile it would have been the Spanish, in Morocco it would have been the French. And but I think, yeah, there is that sense of deep, deep wound and how we're all, you know, we need to face that. But again, it feels to me also this sense of respect and just hearing the stories and and deeply respecting them. I remember when I was in the Atacama Desert, there was we got uh a new kind of tractor for whatever reason for the the fields of Alfalfa that were were because we had some horses and we wanted to ensure that they had food, which is not easy in the desert, as I'm sure you can imagine. And it was just beautiful how the the indigenous people were like, okay, one sec, we just need to do a whole ritual around this tractor arriving. So there was this wine that brought out, chanya seeds were brought out, all this incredible ritual, which was so lovely. And just standing there in silence with them, and uh you couldn't help but be moved by what they were doing. And it was obviously it was somewhat comical at one point with just pouring wine over a tractor that had just arrived. And but there was this deep sense of them knowing much more deeply than I could ever know. And so, yeah, that that sort of sense of understanding through their eyes and giving that space to really listen. And similarly, when we sort of climbed a mountain, it was never about conquering a mountain, it was about the mountain accepting us, the Pachamama in this case, the Mother Earth, and then a ritual at the top of the mountain giving thanks that we've been accepted. So, yeah, again, these cultural differences just felt really, really beautiful, and just I guess they've stayed with me ever since.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

I do remember you saying that your time in the desert was particularly transformative. And how would you say it has then shaped your connection with to as nature?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, to as with so what the first thing came to mind was silence, because the the the desert is fairly unique in that respect because it's you can get almost perfect silence because of the lack of vegetation, I guess. I think the second is this sense of awe, the incredible power of the landscapes around us. I remember one morning I was woken up to a tremendous sound, a bang, you know, and looked out the window, and there was Alaska volcano had just blow its top and and erupted, and there's a plume of smoke going up kilometers and kilometers into the sky. It was you know a good hundred kilometers away, distance-wise, but it is a volcano that I'd climbed as well. And so I guess that sort of deep awe at the power of of nature, and the same with the geysers and the sort of hot springs, boiling hot water coming up through the earth, just gentle reminder, well, not so gentle actually, quite quite brutal reminders, if you get it wrong, um, of how powerful um nature is around us. And I think the fact that there was very few people there was also incredibly special. I know I said at the beginning I love people, but it takes a lot to climb one of those beautiful mountains in the Andes and actually not really see anyone at all. It felt, yeah, really, really beautiful solitude. So, yeah, peace or and then ultimately gratitude when I came back to locations where it is green. Um, I mean looking uh out of the window now and just seeing the the plum tree in full bloom and seeing the the plums there, and then further afield the the greens of the of the forests and a hundred different tones of green. I mean, that is extraordinary. Um so yeah, I think helps feel grateful for whatever type of nature that we we encounter, really.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Thank you for your descriptions of nature, the different environments that we have, the variety and like the immense destructive power that is astounding and you know, as is humans, and you know, speaking for myself here in southwest England, like how we kind of control the environment or how you know benign in a way it can be seen as. And let's be honest, England were not exactly a shining example, we're one of the most depleted nature countries in Europe for a start, bringing it back to the rawness and that awe and wonder and gratitude. And this is something that I've been just noodling on in the background over the last couple of months, that that spiritual connection and actually the awe and the wonder and the gratitude, the connection to spirituality and the sacredness of nature. And I can see you frantically nodding their paw. I will pause for a moment.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Well, yeah, again, it it's it's that, you know, the the them teaching me that spirituality, you know, that I've taken fully grown adults who appear to have achieved everything in life on the surface by whatever measure you consider success, uh, and yet they climb a mountain and they're just in tears. And it's hard to explain, but it's about that deep presence with something that is clearly way, way, way bigger than any of us. And then sort of that brings me to the sort of the the night sky, which we haven't even touched upon in terms of the Atacama, which is world famous for its night skies, with the sort of some of the most important telescopes and radio telescopes being based there. But it's it's just unbelievable. And to this day, I still lie down with my sons and and look up in the sky every night. And it's such a humbling experience because you're like, okay, we're just we are nothing, really. And I find that also when I spend time in in nature doing sit spots after 20 minutes, it just you just recali calibrates, and there's this deep sense of perspective about what's important, and more than anything, it always feels it's nature that's important, and we are nature, so not I'm not denying we're us part of that, but uh just the way it gives you that incredible sense, and yeah, I think there is a spiritual side of that, although I'm still a bit like you kind of exploring what that means, and there is some cracking research about to say, yeah, it's like McKinsey Health Institute, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Thank you very much. Yeah, it's like almost hiding in plain sight. Like I'm fast coming to the conclusion that I'm a spiritual being. I've kind of known that for a long time. Um we are spiritual beings, we live in a spiritual society and culture, and it is becoming more so. And actually, even coaching, when you look back at the roots of it, clearly have to get the roots in there, there's a spiritual thread. So this is um filling me with a lot of comfort um as to where this could lead to. And yeah, I was I was I was just kind of making connections between your comments around silence and spirituality and beyond words, and very much that echoes um conversations which I've had from members who are part of a hive mind supervision circle that I facilitate. And the beyond words comes up time and time again, and whether that is the restrictive nature of the English language, and actually, when we look at other languages, they have a more element of relationality and different ways of connecting, which the English language is more objectification um than subjective. So, Paul, bringing coaching into the equation, um, your coaching journey. Where did that where did that start?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

So it started in the foreign office and I was lucky to be coached by an individual. I was struggling when I first joined the foreign office because I I was not a sort of a typical diplomat. So I was I didn't really understand this whole organization, what it was all about, and uh also struggled to find my place, if I'm honest, in terms of what I offered. I mean, obviously I've been recruited for some reason, um, but it wasn't immediately obvious why. And yet, through some very excellent coaching from a person called Jonathan, I was like, what just happened there? That's crazy. You know, I was really intrigued about how he was able to bring conversations that he'd made notes a couple of sessions before, deep listening, how it seemed to be uh it came out of me, but I I didn't I didn't know it was inside me. Um so yeah, I I I was intrigued by coaching, by being coached, I guess, and then felt, hey, I I want to do some of this. And again, as these things often do, there was I think about two or three weeks later, there was a sort of sort of one of these emails sent out saying anyone who'd like to become part of the sort of coaching cadre within the Foreign Office, which uh about sixty or seven. Coaches for 17,000 employees. And I joined and got trained and uh with Ashridge and then also by the Institute of Leadership and Management, ILM, and uh even became a supervisor after that. So trained to supervise the other coaches, both in the civil service and in the foreign office. But I was like, a lot of the coaching was done indoors because I don't know, it's quite secure, the foreign office. And I remember once there was this, I don't know, I you couldn't even know the window in this building. It was so secure. And I was like, it was really hot and the air conditioning wasn't working. And I was like, I can't remember where I was, but I was like, I need to get out. I really have to get out. And I remember that, and I thought, and looking back on life, I've always wanted to be outdoors. So, and then I was intrigued about how you might be able to coach initially in nature. I think if I'm honest, that's where I was at initially. You know, could we do a walk? I remember my first walk into the woods near me with a client, and just thinking, I was quite nervous. And I thought, wow, I wonder if this is going to work. And, you know, have I been speaking to myself back then with what I know now? I'd say just let the nature do the work. You know, nature is amazing. It just brings such beautiful metaphors and sensing, like we're saying before, that deep sense of what's bubbling up to the surface. After 16 years in the Foreign Office, about two and a half, three years ago, I decided to do something different and do the coaching work, uh, setting up my own practice, uh, mainly around nature-based, because I feel that the future of digital is offline. I generally believe that. In that, of course, we're going to use online and AI will become probably better and better at coaching, but there's no substitute for being with nature and working with nature in partnership. Um, and and then sort of broadening out to outdoor facilitation. I did an amazing course with change in nature, Andy and Chloe. And yeah, just these extraordinary opportunities to work with nature. And I think that's where it's shifted from working in nature to with nature, and then sort of latterly, I've been really drawn to working with or more importantly, for nature and doing something, giving something back. I think it's really important, and that's where I think this regenerative journeys started, where regenerative leadership or co-creating this foundation on the island, um, where we're working to regenerate entire villages one by one. And I don't know, it feels really beautiful because it's real and it's it's in person and it's relatively urgent actually, and it transcends, you know, coaching is so useful in all these spaces, whether it's about creating that social soil that's needed for people to be ready for this change, or them sensing an emerging world, or getting them to shift from that sort of ego, it's about me, what I can get to this eco, what what what we as a community can can change. And and yeah, just that sort of journey feels very much ongoing. And if I'm honest, I have absolutely no idea where it's going to end up. But I'm I'm loving the journey. And I'm also determined that the world that a lot of us are seeing, which is that's a more sort of ego world of the post-truth, post-democracy, even post-human, right? With the sort of the advent of AI, is beautifully contrasted with this new emerging world, which I think is more about co-creation, community, and indeed a greater connection with nature, which is a fundamental part of that, but also connection of self, as in where we are today, with the future possibility of ourself. And that really intrigues me in terms of how that sits within uh sort of a more regenerative world and a more positive world. And my wish is that that world that's emerging is going to be a lot of fun because I think that's one of the challenges. It can't be dull, it can't be difficult, it has to be fun. And, you know, when we grew up as children, you know, being being in nature and and and w running around the forests, if we had that opportunity, or perhaps the equivalent, even in in cities, you know, find that space where we can run around and and just be and have fun. Um, I think a lot of that is is where this hopefully this emerging world is coming. If I can get my way at least.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

And casting my mind back to season one, you are you're not alone. Many of the guests did touch on the notion of play and the importance of play. And I just had a client call this morning, and that intention of finding fun and what could that be like? How would that feel? Yeah, so there's been a huge shift in the institutionalized world into working for yourself. Again, I'm like, oh, similarities, you and me here, military, working for self. So, how has that been? Um, that transition, transitioning, still in the liminal space, the don't know all about the don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah. Yeah, no, I didn't, I to be honest, I didn't know the word liminal a couple of years back. And it was really heartening to understand that word. You know, it comes from the Latin lemon, which means threshold, and this idea of neither being through into the next place or or not having fully left the other space that you were in. And I've understood a few things. One is that that liminal space can be quite uncomfortable, uh, it can be quite scary, it can be quite lonely to some extent, and it can feel difficult, particularly if in my case it took me a while to sort of let go of that past and and re-identify, I guess. But the upside is this incredible space of creativity and joy and imagination and yeah, I think positivity generally, and particularly when it's done co-created. I remember I remember when I first sort of starting out in the foreign office, you you obviously get the team you're given, right? I mean, everyone's kind of there's a little bit of recruitment goes on, but not not a lot. It's it's very much within the same pool of people. And, you know, I left the foreign office. I can work with whoever I want. This is amazing, you know, and so co-creating things with people, which I've done a lot of times, I really enjoyed just that experience of the diverse ways of looking at things. Go, you do this, oh I I feel this. What do you say, you know, and just having that fun around and what happens if we do something completely crazy? How would that look? And and you know, and you come up with something amazing. So I do a a retreat every year, which I sort of co-lead with um Lexi, who who actually funny enough lives in the same village as me. And it's just tremendous fun. I I I mean, we do enjoy it, we enjoy creating it, we enjoy actually doing it, and just that feeling of seeing what happens when people connect with nature, because that plays a huge part in it. But when they connect with each other as well, around a fire, perhaps the singing, the resonance, the yeah, sensing, looking at the night sky. Obviously, we're lucky in Mioca, but also the connect to self and the and them seeing, oh wow, hold on. This another thing is possible. And I think that's what intrigues me about in a coaching world, is looking beyond that coaching conversation that's happening, but beyond what's happening within that ecosystem that they live in, uh, and obviously I live in. And that sort of almost Venn diagram, this of the connection between the two, just feels there's so much opportunity there for sort of, I guess, regenerative coaching, where people are given that opportunity to create that space for themselves to ask those big questions and to feel supported if they want to, to discover and have fun, as you say, and and explore another possibility. Because clearly the the possible a lot of the world that's happening at the moment that we're seeing is it's just simply not working, right? And uh, you know, I look back and where we had to be sitting in an office. I mean, our natural habitat is you know, as human beings or Homo sapiens is it's not, it's clearly not being in an office. So how does that play out in our mind, our mental health? Um, yeah, feels feels completely logical that we'd be outdoors and playing and having fun and obviously working for sure, but working in perhaps a slightly different way.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I went to an event on Sunday in Bristol, which was a talk with a number of photographs by a lady who spent a year living on the land and eating like wild foraged food and hearing her journey through the seasons, living in a grass hut that she built with support from her community. Wow, and how her relationship shifted with the land, the plants, the moon, the sun. And the work was there, like there was a lot of work involved, like tending the fire and harvesting the plants and processing the meat, and you know, this this tendency we can look back on the world kind of it's pink, pink sunglasses, and there is hard work there. Um nature is not all gentle and light, you know, coming back to that destructive force of nature we talked about earlier and the power behind the geezers and the volcanoes that come through. And alongside that, we have created this artificial habitat of zoo humans. I remember hearing that phrase, and I was like, yeah, we're we're zoo animals in captivity.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

That's so true. Yeah. What an amazing person though, to do that. Beautiful, and then just connecting with the the rhythm of nature and uh it's just an amazing, amazing experience, I guess. Kind of feels really inspiring what you've just said. And I do sleep outs in nature, but that's not comparable. But yeah, it just feels that it's the more we can connect, the better. And you I think you're right, yes, you feel tired and you're working hard, but um there's not a screen to be seen, and there's not you know, you don't need to go to the gym because you've just done a whole full day's work in terms of exercise, and you're connected to the nature because you're looking at the weather patterns and the clouds and the the rain coming in, and yeah, I just I love that.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Love that different, a different fatigue from Zoom fatigue.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah. So within your training as a coach, you chose to align with the International Coaching Federation, and I believe firmly that coaching professional associations have their part within the bigger ecosystem. So just be interested to know what drove you to that decision and how your experience has been.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

That's a great question. Um so first of all, I did have a lot of indecision about this because I imagine 10 years in the Foreign Office, quite structured coaching, a lot about, I know, uh leadership, a lot about, you know, what you'd probably expect with an organization that size, a little bit of purpose stuff thrown in, which was lovely, but the training we received was not accredited with a professional body either, any of them. So I was thinking, well, maybe I should, um, especially as I'm gonna be doing this professionally now. And I took a long time over this, if I'm honest. And I think that a lot of that was about kind of rebelling against structure, coming out with the foreign office and this very hierarchical system, structured and rigid system. I was kind of avoiding anything that felt rigid, especially when I was sort of out with nature. I just felt free and everything was flowing. And and I remember I was doing some nature-based coaching with someone who was training as a, I think as a PCC in the ICF, and she was like going, yeah, Paul, but you have to contract properly, and you should be asking words, you know, what does that word mean for you? And it felt quite robotic actually. Um anyway, cut long story short, I was like, I I think it's a good idea, it's a good to have that. I think the the profession, the coaching profession, needs professional bodies, and you know, my sense it's useful to be part of that. And so I've been doing this sort of uh, in fact, it's PCC uh accreditation because of the number of hours I've done coaching for. And it was really fascinating because the first time I I completely flunked it, the professional recordings, because I know that the person was outdoors and I hadn't read the PCC markers properly. I knew the competencies, but I didn't know to what extent they were looking for very specific things, and I didn't have a mentor, which I now do. And I think now I I've really enjoyed that journey of going, you know, using the markers to help me structure slightly more my sessions, and they seem to have gone deeper, quicker, which is lovely. So I I I've I've enjoyed learning that side of things and I found it really useful. I think on the other side, so, and that's where I'm really intrigued, and this is just emerging as well, but you know, hearing how you know if you feed those same markers into an algorithm with AI, to what extent that machine learning can achieve coaching session? I think there it's sort of depending on who you look at and the type of evidence, I think there's a lot of this is only coming out now. But my sense is that it's going to get better and better at that kind of thing. Can it replace a human being? I I don't think so. But just in case, I think that's why I think again, there's huge value to working outdoors with nature. Because I said before, you know, the future of digital is offline. And so giving these human beings where they they can use the tools, you know, even as a coach, we can use AI as a tool to help us, I don't know, uh prepare invoices or help us, you know, find our gaps in areas we're not skilled at uh about running our own business or simple problems with Zoom or whatever it may be. But I generally believe that whole really sentencing and presencing and being with nature. I mean, I I got to the point I was almost listening or working with nature to such an extent that I wouldn't hardly be speaking. It would just would be sensed throughout. And I know that was a bit extreme, but it was kind of an experiment, right? But I think there is value in that. Um, but there's also some value in the sort of structure. So I'm really I'm kind of in that liminal space, I guess, between what what I feel and what what makes me the best possible coach, not for me, but for my clients. And that is something that is ongoing, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

And I do believe it is something that as coaches, we need to make our own professional and personal decisions around, as in what works for me, what works for our clients. And then actually, well, how much do I engage with the professional association as well? And you know, don't get me wrong up being affiliated with the ICF for over 15 years now. And there's been a lot of ICF bashing, like, I get it. Um, and yeah, I believe as members that we all have a responsibility, okay. Well, if it's not working for us, then well, what are we gonna do about it? Yeah. Um, and whether you choose an alternate organization, and again, it it's it's that giving back rather than that passive, like, I'm a member, what am I getting? It's like, well, actually, how can I be apart? Yeah, and you know, for me, the whole community piece and bringing people together, you know, in the past I've set up chapters in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, spoken at conferences, um, taken a step back with other projects. And now earlier this year, I was like, I'm gonna go along to the annual general meeting of the UK chapter because I want to know what's going on. Um and James Farrell and I have just set up a special interest group for outdoor and nature and climate coaches.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

So I kind of believe that you know, as coaches, get involved. And actually, just circling back to the core competencies that you mentioned, you know, they've they've just been redone in September. And as a framework, there's been a lot of work put in there. And actually, if you don't believe it's right, then on the next review in three years' time, get yourself on as part of the conversation and learn the questionnaire. So it is, it's that taking that step back, it is that structure and flow and how that unfolds. So, yeah, I mean, listener, would love to hear your thoughts. Um, you know, coaching as a profession, we need to have these bigger kind of conversations. Like ultimately, is coaching fit for purpose when we look at the roots of where it's come from, the state of our political systems, economies, environment, mental health crises, and actually, what as coaches can we do? And it's that line of you know advocacy, advocativism.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

No, I think you're right. I think it's important to be part of the conversation, and you know, I think a lot of this is evolving, and I think it's you know, there's a good, healthy debate to be had there about what's what's needed. And, you know, again, it will depend on the clients, as you say, but how can we overcome this sort of polychrisis, if you like, the sort of disconnect with nature, the disconnect with each other, and the disconnect with self? How can coaching play a part in that? And particularly this sort of presence thing, as Otto Sharmer says, I've done the the you theory and you lab work with him, and it's just what's emerging, what's under the surface? You know, yes, you see the you know, the the sense of what's visible, but what's not visible, and what's that telling us as human beings? And I find that fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Straight back to the don't know. Oh, so Paul, what have we not touched on that would could be interesting to bring into our conversation?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

I think we've covered most things. I think it's just this I'm I'm sitting with this question, which is how we could bridge it bring regenerative thinking into coaching, which I'm still grappling with that question. I think that feels to me like my response to that is I'm doing this, as I mentioned, regenerative journey with Laura Storm, who's the co-author of Regenitive Leadership with Giles Hutchins. And it's an extraordinary group of people who are all driven to yeah, create a better, more live world for all, including the non-human. And I think, yeah, just this how can we adapt that and use it? And that, you know, that's why this foundation feels really important because I want to practice this on the ground. I don't think there's any substitute for working and taking a you know concept about regeneration and then applying it in real world situations, in this case, villagers and miorca. And I generally believe that, you know. Coaching plays a part in that, so does outdoor facilitation, so does a lot of other skills that we need. But, you know, with me, I've got a 15-year-old son and a 17-year-old son, and just seeing the world they're growing up into and what skills are generally needed from that age group uh looking forward. And it it's it feels a little bit bleak out there with the sort of educational system and finding a way to sort of help people find their way into this emerging world. And I think that's why I'm heartened to see people like I mentioned Otto Charm Otto Sharmer at the um MIT in Boston, you know, fairly well-respected US university. I mean, just him almost meditating in front of people and and then sensing things, and you're like, wow, this is I didn't do this. I mean, uh, I don't know what what it was like in the British Army, but certainly in the Foreign Office, you don't sort of start a session by sh closing your eyes. You know, this is quite distant from the world I came from. And yet, and yet it's so sorely needed, and real sensing and generative conversation rather than just it's about what I want from the conversation. And I suppose diplomacy plays a role in that, where you're trying to see the other person's view. So yeah, I've got a whole mishmash of things going on in my brain, but and in my body indeed, and seeing how we can make this new emerging world make it really exciting and make it a place where people want to be part of it.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Thank you for that. And I will make sure that various resources are so posted in the show notes, whether that is Giles Hutchins, he was a guest on my previous podcast, The Coaching Outdoors, Laura Storm's work as well, and also around liminal spaces. Valentina Cassana Pollard has done some research into that, and she has just contributed a chapter. This is a bit of a shameless plug, apologies. Um the the Outdoor Nature Coaches Handbook by Ratledge will have just been published by this time the episode goes live. So there is a lot in there to dive into and her chapter, and I'm hoping she might be a future guest. We are currently in conversation. Watch the space. Where can our listeners find you?

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Ah, um, so on my LinkedIn, very happy to people to approach me directly there. I also have uh my website, which is paulrodwell.com. And yeah, I'm really happy to hear from listeners, people who feel that some of this has resonated. I believe very strongly in co-creation and working together. So who knows who might reach out and uh where this ripples of good vibes might take us. So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

It's always such a gorgeous treat. I get such a delight from hearing when listeners have reached out to other guests and the conversations that they've had, and that is what it is all about. It gives me a lot of joy and a lot of gratitude. Any parting words for today?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

So but just before the session, I I I just opened this book, which I love by Ken Robinson, and if you may, I might just read out the just the closing words. Imagine if the lesson we most need to learn is that more to life on earth than human beings, and more to being human than self-interest. Our futures all depend on learning this lesson by heart.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

What's what's the title of the book?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

It's called Imagine If.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Imagine if I'm sensing I'm sensing a possible name for this podcast episode, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Oh, thank you all for joining us just from New Yorker. And yeah, enjoy being on the cusp of the summer solstice and all that it brings.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Thank you so much. Enjoy Somerset.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

I'm always curious to discover what's resonated for you, or maybe what didn't quite align. Feel free to let me know. I'd be extremely grateful if you're able to comment, like or share, as it helps to spread the word. And looking to the future and staying connected, follow me on your favorite podcast platform. And finally, a big heartfelt thanks for being a part of this podcast passion project.