STFUAL - From Boy to Man to Better Husband

The "Bad Man" You're Afraid to Be Is the Man She Actually Wants with Mikah Jones, Relationship Coach | EP 23

• Alessandro Frosali - Men's Coach • Season 2 • Episode 23

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What if trying so hard to be a "good man" is actually turning you into the worst version of yourself?

Alessandro sits down with wellness coach Mikah Jones to unpack a pattern wrecking modern men: the fear of being perceived as a "bad man." Not bad like your father was. Bad in any way that might disappoint the women in your life.

This fear keeps you trapped. You say yes when you mean no. You walk on eggshells. You lose your backbone one compromise at a time. Mikah reveals why most men measure their worth through their partner's emotions instead of their own truth.

Chapters:
14:35 - The Erosion of Femininity 
20:45 - Losing The Spine In Love
33:00 - The Courage To Be Disliked
44:15 - What's Actually Yours to Carry And What Isn't
53:30 - Why Men Are Afraid Their Truth 

Alessandro and Mikah explore the difference between all spine and all heart with no spine. They dig into why your body is the only real compass you have. You'll discover why "no" is the most powerful word for building a life you actually want.

They tackle why women resent men who constantly people-please. How defensiveness is just your mind freaking out because you're not rooted. Why following your truth might make you temporarily unlikable but ultimately respected.

If you've ever felt like you're doing everything for your partner but still losing ground, this conversation is for you.

Lsten and learn how to stop measuring yourself through her emotions, build an unshakable presence, and become the kind of man who leads from truth instead of fear.

Follow Mikah:  https://www.instagram.com/mikahjonesss?igsh=Nmp3bzR3bTR4eGtu

Become a Better Husband in Just Two Minutes a Week for Free: HERE

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Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy. Always seek qualified guidance for your personal situation.

Views shared by Alessandro Frosali and his guests reflect their lived experiences and opinions. Every listener’s journey is unique, and no therapeutic relationship is created.

[00:00:00] Alessandro Frosali: Most men aren't bad. They're just terrified of being seen as bad and that fear, it's quietly wrecking their marriages and killing any chance at real intimacy. Today I sit down with Micah Jones, a wellness coach who helps men and women break away from people pleasing patterns. They don't even know that they're stuck in.

[00:00:19] Alessandro Frosali: We talk about why so many men are afraid of becoming their fathers. Why saying no to your partner can actually be the most loving thing that you can do. And why your body, not your thoughts is [00:00:30] the only real way to measure whether you are living true or not. Micah explains why you can't borrow peace from meditation or breath work.

[00:00:38] Alessandro Frosali: Why? Defensiveness is just the mind protecting itself and how following your truth can be the most spiritual thing that you can do. Stay until the end, Micah reframes what being a bad man actually means, and it's not what you think. Let's go.

[00:00:52] Alessandro Frosali: Welcome to Shut the Fuck Up and listen, Micah, it's great to have you on.

[00:00:56] Mikah Jones: Happy to be here, dude. Happy to be here

[00:00:58] Alessandro Frosali: I wanna jump straight in. There's [00:01:00] something that you believe today in modern society. You believe that men are afraid to be bad men. What the fuck does that mean?

[00:01:08] Mikah Jones: I'll speak as myself. I think I want to be as a person today and not like as high end coach first. We have all, you know, I used to always wonder why it was very, very hard for me to be able to just actually handle criticism from anyone in my life that I actually cared about. Why can't I? Why I get so dysregulated.[00:01:30] 

[00:01:30] Mikah Jones: I'll like cut them off, get defensive, shut down, get shameful, something. I had all the spectrum of reactions over the course of my life and I was wondering where the hell all this was coming from. And I didn't start there. I had nice little journey of other things first, but I found that bad men, I was essentially being afraid to be like my father, who I just defined in my mind as someone that was emotionally not present, inconsiderate of others [00:02:00] and does not care about women. And any time that someone, a woman in my life or a partner was sharing with me something that they wanted me to change a little bit or something they didn't like about how I was showing up, I immediately thought that they were basically about knowing my dad calling me, my dad. My whole body would just like freak out and I wouldn't even know how to separate between those two things. And I've worked on that and [00:02:30] thankfully now I can handle yes the dysregulation and still hold the space that's necessary. But I found in a lot of work with people that that's a pretty common pattern. And like I don't like directly judge my father. And I was like, why do I not like my dad? Like yeah, he did certain things that like could have done differently of course.

[00:02:49] Mikah Jones: And I think we've all done that in our life. But I realized most of my perspective of my father, it's coming from a mother. My mom had this very like [00:03:00] victim seemed powerless and weak whenever she was in the presence of my dad. And I felt like I had to pick up that burden and she never really would say negative things about my father, but I found. All of the subtleties of the stuff that I had, the scraps I had to pick up that he didn't really pick up all just became these negative perceptions of my father from there. So it's this inverse way that we all develop. Afraid of being bad men. Make puts us in a position to [00:03:30] struggle with Intimacy. Think is really what ends up doing. It kind of robs us of it. The development of it,

[00:03:35] Alessandro Frosali: There's so many, there's so many, questions that I would have from this. but I'd love to like, explore a little bit more, you know, branching out from your perspective also into the, the, the men that you've worked with and, you know, maybe the women as well. But do you think there's a quantifiable idea of what a badman actually.

[00:03:54] Alessandro Frosali: Is,

[00:03:55] Mikah Jones: that's viable idea. To who, like both genders could say that that's what a bad [00:04:00] man is. Is that, that the question.

[00:04:02] Alessandro Frosali: yeah, I guess either both genders or even just men themselves. 'cause I, I find the interesting thing here is I wonder whether we are facing an issue of everyone being afraid. 'cause I agree with you. I think there is an, like a fear of bad men, but. I don't know if we've actually identified what a bad man actually is.

[00:04:24] Alessandro Frosali: And so if we, it's almost like being afraid of the boogeyman, but the boogeyman has no identifiable characteristics. [00:04:30] It's actually just this. And so the boogeyman could be anything, and then all of a sudden we're just afraid. But there's, there's no quantifiable bad men. And so I almost feel like if we're gonna start a conversation about, we believe that men are afraid of bad men or being bad men, I'd love to know what is a bad man?

[00:04:49] Alessandro Frosali: Can we actually categorize that? Can we quantify that?

[00:04:52] Mikah Jones: Oh, let's see. Okay. First thought that comes to mind is a bad man is someone [00:05:00] that makes women feel unsafe and hurts their feelings.

[00:05:06] Alessandro Frosali: All right. All right. Let's, let's, let's tease this out. Let's tease this out. Keep 

[00:05:11] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. I've never been asked a question like this. I was like, oh, let's do it. Like, that's interesting. Um,do, it makes women feel unsafe.

[00:05:18] Mikah Jones: I think women have developed the language of that through some versions of their self-improvement journey, wherever that is. They've been kind of, men have received that as like, you make me feel [00:05:30] unsafe.

[00:05:30] Alessandro Frosali: Mm,

[00:05:31] Mikah Jones: And it's like that's a whole other tangent of a concept. Like that's a very strange thing for I think most people to hear in general.

[00:05:41] Alessandro Frosali: yeah. Yeah. I also think it's, it's kind of akin to, you know, 'cause this core feminine need of, of safety, right. And security and, uh. They, they link very closely to this core feminine need of love. Right. And it's, it's something that I see a lot in my coaching is, is [00:06:00] men feeling really hurt and emasculated, or emasculated, sorry, I don't think emasculated is a word, but they feel emasculated because a woman says to them, I don't feel your love, but they're like, I love you so much, or I don't feel safe with you, but, but I love you so much, but I like, and then there's that.

[00:06:17] Alessandro Frosali: So it's a very, it's almost an interesting thing because we're afraid of being bad men, but we're, we're kind of afraid of being bad men through the eyes of the women

[00:06:26] Mikah Jones: Exactly.

[00:06:28] Alessandro Frosali: in a weird way. That's, and [00:06:30] so I find that also interesting that your first one is, you know, what makes a bad man is make, makes a woman feel, or like makes a woman feel unsafe. 

[00:06:38] Mikah Jones: I think this movement is beautiful, but I also think there's been a counter to it. The feminism movement is wonderful. My family was a matriarchy, so it was ran by women, but had a lot of underdeveloped men. This rise of women being, I would describe to some degree, I think more confident, yes, but also more masculine, just a little bit more driven [00:07:00] men. Had to learn, especially their, their predominant parental figure that was around emotionally was the women. They had to learn how to be more feminine, to be likable by them speaking for myself and speaking for quite a lot of other people. That process, I think, in general, puts us in a position where most of being a man is measured based on the woman's experience of a man, not based on men's experience of men.

[00:07:29] Alessandro Frosali: [00:07:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:30] Mikah Jones: And that's why I decided to go with that, because I think that's probably the more relatable option,

[00:07:37] Mikah Jones: is that it's it's typically defined by another person's experience of you, not something that you've defined for yourself.

[00:07:44] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, I get that. I get that. I love your, I I want to hear your takes on feminism because one of the things we had a, a chat on, uh, before we jumped on this call, we had a little meet and greet and we were talking about like, you know, not being afraid to say things that, [00:08:00] that, um, and we were on the, shut the fuck up and listen podcast.

[00:08:02] Alessandro Frosali: We're not on the, let's be all nice humans podcast. And this episode's gonna be, talk about being afraid to be bad men. So, you know, then let's be a little bit bad and, and talk about things that we might not necessarily say somewhere else. What are your thoughts on modern feminism?

[00:08:17] Alessandro Frosali: 'cause I could see that there was something that you wanted to say, but you felt scared to say it. Maybe not scared, but like, there's hesitation as we all feel

[00:08:23] Mikah Jones: Yeah, I think just a, a healthy level of hesitation,

[00:08:27] Mikah Jones: right? The feminism is a [00:08:30] movement. Feels like my words together. women, women in a way wanting power, but want the benefits of power, not actually power. It, it feels like, uh, like I, I personally, I found there are some women that like really wanna run a business and like really do that, and that's fucking awesome. Like it's one of the coolest things. But then there's some that like after they get like to the heights of their career or something. It's more of an innate [00:09:00] need for them to want to, if they wanna have kids, which I know that's in the world that we're in right now, that's, uh, depending on the person, that's an interesting topic. They want to be a mom, a nurturer to be taken care of. I think that that's the role that typically a lot of women do want, but they want the benefits that come from the feminist movement, which is equal rights, equal pay, equal [00:09:30] responsibility. But I also, there's something about that that's like, ultimately, like if I was asking a few people, like I was asking a few like female clients that I like, I I, I would describe them to be, I think they really resonate very strongly and identify strongly with that movement. Just like systems thinking, right? Like what does that do for you? To like really believe in this movie and to want the same pay, to want this, to want that. And it all just comes down to essentially like they get to be a version of themselves that's taken care of, that's [00:10:00] relaxed, that's loving and nurturing. So they're using this like power method of like trying to get equal pay and trying to get all these things so that they can at some point get these other feelings of nurturance. It feels like a backwards way of getting there. And it just doesn't, it doesn't land. And when, when we see it, and like for some of them when we lay it out, it's like they realize that this method is not creating any of that in their life. It's creating like, almost like polar opposite [00:10:30] of it. And I think that that's a lot of what the movement has done and it's, and it's a counter to a lot of, I think, just inconsiderate behavior by men.

[00:10:43] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, I, I, I have a kind of thing that me and my wife riff on, and, and I Yeah, I'll, I'll see what you think on this. Take something that I, I feel like you, you're the perfect person to debut this kind of thinking. I believe [00:11:00] that feminism is not actually driven by women. I think it's driven by systems men who just can't deal with women's emotions, so we make them, turn them into men.

[00:11:10] Alessandro Frosali: I don't even believe feminism started with women. I, I, I have a straw hat belief that it started with men in corporate America who just couldn't deal with the emotions of a woman. So let's just turn them all into men and, and it's the erosion of the feminine. It's the erosion of the feminine, because a feminine is so like.

[00:11:27] Alessandro Frosali: A lot to handle for somebody. You have to actually step [00:11:30] up to be able to handle it. You actually have to, like, you have to see the dark parts of yourself as a man and then hold them so that you can handle something so delicate and beautiful. And instead of doing that work, we just go, nah, everyone's a man now everyone's a man.

[00:11:49] Alessandro Frosali: You guys fight about that. We'll make them want to be a man, men. And we'll make that the predominant thing that they should want. To the point where, you know what? We all don't have to worry about actually looking at ourselves and [00:12:00] holding this thing that is so beautiful. Let's erase it completely. Let's destroy it.

[00:12:04] Alessandro Frosali: And, and I almost look at it like that.

[00:12:07] Mikah Jones: Do you think that men are doing that? Consciously.

[00:12:10] Alessandro Frosali: God, no.

[00:12:11] Mikah Jones: Okay. Okay. I was like, the way that that was framed, I was like, I pictured that being like a very unconscious thing.

[00:12:17] Alessandro Frosali: I, I think that's quite an, I think it's quite an unconscious thing. I mean, it's interesting. My wife thinks it's a conscious thing. She, she always talks about the they in power and all of this and, and I go, how do we, how, like, how do we [00:12:30] quantify a they in power that does something like that? And I, I don't, and if it was something that was done then, you know, you could start seeing how things like that could be done like 50, 60, 70 years ago.

[00:12:40] Alessandro Frosali: I think a lot of weird shit happened after World War ii. Uh, you know, in terms of advertising and, and that sort of thing. I don't know what was conscious and not conscious, but a lot of these things that set in motion around that time has resulted really, I think in this, I think the result is, of what I was saying, the erosion of the feminine.

[00:12:59] Alessandro Frosali: [00:13:00] And, and if I'm honest, like if you look at it, it's like, like to be feminine and, and femininity when it truly is feminine. It's something beautiful. And when I look at a feminist movement, it's, there's so much anger and non radiance, non love, non like beauty of what makes feminine that I, it just doesn't seem feminine to me.

[00:13:23] Mikah Jones: It doesn't.

[00:13:24] Alessandro Frosali: It seems very masculine. It has none of the things that knowing any woman [00:13:30] I've ever spoken to actually loves about what makes them a woman. It strips away that, and that's the weird thing about it. And that's what makes me go, well wait, if it has nothing to do with women, what does it have to do with, you know.

[00:13:42] Mikah Jones: I kind of like that tape a lot. I like it because it, it. It's like, let's say in a moment, let's, let's just picture, you know, a typical corporate room, right? There's two people that are up for the same position. The man is gonna choose [00:14:00] the man out of like some level of primal reasons, some level of biased reasons, and then like, there's just like a, the more and more that that person chose bias, and then let's say that guy is hired and she's not hired and she stays in her position, that starts it a little bit where it's like, I want this thing that I didn't get. But then also it's how the man handles the conversation when she comes to him and asks why I didn't get the position. And then it [00:14:30] just kind of continues it. Continues the erosion and it's like just making you want it more and more and you know, the guy's getting triggered so he's doing some form of deflection, technique or like gas, like something, right.

[00:14:41] Mikah Jones: Insert label of behavior. And then it just creates more and more of a scarcity and not enoughness and then creating a path where she thinks,

[00:14:51] Alessandro Frosali: I mean, or it's literally, it, it starts always because the, the one before that is, is the women in the home. And you know, like I really do look at, like [00:15:00] I love how, you know, when you listen to David Data or Robert Glover or all these sort of thinkings, they always talk about the, the three stages of men essentially.

[00:15:09] Alessandro Frosali: I mean, I don't know if it's like specifically said, but it's always infer, inferred, you know, that we had that really over,Exerting controlling, type man, which is that pre 1950s kind of man who is like, I'm the, the man in the house. I don't have any feelings. It's all spying. Right? And it's the kind of, you know, man, that we all try and avoid.

[00:15:29] Alessandro Frosali: [00:15:30] Which interestingly enough, I think a lot of, I was, I, I wondered whether you were gonna go this way when I was talking about bad men, you know, because we all look at that as like a, as the bad men, we can kinda laugh at it. I think. I think that's the, we look at that, we go, okay, we're not like that anymore.

[00:15:43] Alessandro Frosali: We're not these chauvinistic kind of men who, who just go, women needs to stay in the kitchen. You know? Like that's, that's, we can look at that and we can go, that's. Bad, quote, unquote. But then the, the response to that has been the second movement, which we see, which is, which is all the heart men, which is all these [00:16:00] men that are just so filled with, with love, compassion, and empathy, but they give so much, but they have no spine whatsoever.

[00:16:07] Alessandro Frosali: They don't know what a challenge is. And in actual fact, that's half the men that I'm coaching at the moment. It's just men that, like, I'm talking to them and their women are like, can you just fucking lead? Can you do something? And he's just like, oh, but what do you mean I've done everything for you for the last 20 years?

[00:16:22] Alessandro Frosali: And he has no backbone. It's like, it's like jelly, you know? And it's, it's all hard. He cares so much, but he's lost [00:16:30] any sense of self. There's no drive, nothing in there that makes him rigid, right? Or anything. And so then, you know, then there's that third stage, which is, can we find some kind of man which has heart and spine together?

[00:16:46] Alessandro Frosali: This idea of conscious man, integrated man, something like this. And so if we're gonna go back to the feminism analogy, I could imagine if, if there was a bad man within this, it would be that, that [00:17:00] man that's so scared of the c the corporate analogy is like all the boardroom men going, gosh, I think the women want us to have feelings.

[00:17:09] Alessandro Frosali: So, uh, instead of that, instead of that, why don't we get them to have no feelings? Why don't we get them to have no feelings? Let's create something like feminism. Let's get, let's get all those women to say they want jobs instead. And then that way we don't have to have feelings. But obviously then men started having feelings and, I dunno.

[00:17:29] Alessandro Frosali: So that [00:17:30] was just my imagination of it. But uh, in the end, the result is the same. Women have to act like men and lose the things that make them really, truly feel in broad strokes, happy. And I'm not saying no women should run a business God far from it. I'm just saying that it's like on a whole, I see so many women that feel stuck, right?

[00:17:54] Alessandro Frosali: I feel stuck and they feel stuck in some kind of rat race. And then their husband's also feeling [00:18:00] stuck in some kind of rat race and, and everyone seems to be so stuck and I don't, I don't know how we get out of that.

[00:18:05] Alessandro Frosali: where do I wanna start? The, i the, one of the first things I think that comes to mind is like, it, it then leads to the path where like a lot of my clients, I have like could probably say the split is like 70% women, 30% men. I would say a lot of the women are, are in relationships with men who at one point had a backbone and at some point lost it. And lost [00:18:30] it consciously, maybe never redeveloped it, maybe just didn't know how to something. So the woman has become more of the initiator, which as she does more initiation, the more resentment that she builds, the more exhaustion that she has. And there's a, there's a unique balance that I think ends up coming into that space.

[00:18:50] Mikah Jones: 'cause I mean, I wanna make today about men, so I wanna make my, so.

[00:18:54] Alessandro Frosali: Well, no, I mean it, I think men listening to this also, by the way, [00:19:00] if they can hear this and see themselves within this, they get a sense of understanding for their woman. 

[00:19:04] Mikah Jones: I, I found with, with a lot of, a lot of the women, there's like a, they're almost, they don't, they're afraid to fall into the lead, to follow your lead because they think they're gonna lose your, lose their independence with it. So they have some resistance to it and they end up creating environments where like she always has the last say or she's still [00:19:30] kind of controlling things. And what I found in general is like. Ship it. If we take it out of, you know, masculine femininity and, and all of that. 'cause that's just going on throughout life and inside of a person. I think that there is truth for everyone and I think that that truth is found somatically. It's in your body. Your body is the only way that you can measure your experience of life. It has every layer of who you are. [00:20:00] It's your mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, et cetera. Bringing everyone to find their deepest alignment with that, if I wanna be dramatic, ends up, women typically end up leading themselves back down the path of being more feminine and it creates an influence in the relationship where the man is either now has the actual space. To develop the backbone once again. And maybe the, the relationship has enough steady legs to build that [00:20:30] process together. Where the woman is, is so back into her true essence of who she wants to be, the life that she wants to live, that the relationship is now in misalignment. And I find that for a lot of women, they end up hitting the misalignment piece faster because it doesn't take that long for women to kind of get back into that space because she's willing to go into her body. And I think the path for men, it's not different than it is for women, like the, it's not all [00:21:00] about feelings in the same way. Like I, I think there's a very practical way to look at your body and your feelings. I that I describe this to people as. Body. Your body is either telling you one of three things, yes, no.

[00:21:15] Mikah Jones: Or, let's see, that's it. That's its response to typically everything. We could say nos, or when your body is getting super tight, it gets clams down. A fast heart rate, like you just feel like your chest is caving in. We would call that in coaching and [00:21:30] in therapy contracting. Or it's a yes, which this is a mix of a world where you can add a little bit more of whatever you technically want this to be.

[00:21:39] Mikah Jones: 'cause some men just want to be really grounded. Maybe they don't want to have a lot of joy. Fine, you don't wanna have a lot of joy. But typically the, the group, for men is groundedness security. If they think that's a feeling, confidence that they think that's a feeling. Those are states of being in my mind, peace, joy, that's it. If they can have those things, [00:22:00] perfect. Your body responds to that a very particular way. Maybe they've had some moments of vivid but they haven't really had consistency with it. And I think the lack of consistency with them being able to feel and embrace these emotions is where the backbone gets lost. 'cause it can't really ever be developed. I used to think when I was like younger and only in the spiritual world, like the loving thing to do is to always say yes to someone. And I found that like the more often I [00:22:30] said yes when my body was giving me a no, the more I was just cutting my spine in half over and over. And I'm actually finding that no is sometimes the most yes thing to do.

[00:22:44] Alessandro Frosali: It's actually an interesting thing that, that I see with men and I, I face it. Um, I had a, I think it was Wednesday, I had a day of like six or seven coaching calls in a row. And it was one of those interesting days where almost every single person had the same theme. I dunno if you've ever [00:23:00] experienced that,

[00:23:01] Alessandro Frosali: where it's like you're, you're literally just scratching your head because you find yourself feeling like a broken record.

[00:23:06] Alessandro Frosali: 'cause you're saying the same analogy, same thing over and over again to somebody who's saying the same thing back at you. But essentially this whole day was like, well, I don't know what I want in life. I don't know what I want in life. Like, how can you say it? Like how can I, 'cause you say, 'cause I have this whole thing about like when men are, let's say.

[00:23:29] Alessandro Frosali: Too [00:23:30] far into, being attached or tethered to their wife's emotions. It's almost as if, you know, their wife wants 'em to lead. But then what's happening is they're like a boat. They drop their anchor and they should be dropping their anchor into something that's solid, that's has some kind of like a solid ground.

[00:23:46] Alessandro Frosali: But instead they're dropping their anchor into a submarine, which is their wife's emotions. And the submarine is like going everywhere. And they're just like flying around. And they're only happy when she's still, and they're [00:24:00] only like, and, and when she's not, they're like, she's, they're, they're awful. So I found myself saying that over and over again.

[00:24:04] Alessandro Frosali: And then they kept going, well, but then if I, like, what is that thing that I get to anchor into that, that, and wait, what do I want in my life and what is all this? And, and I find a lot of resonance in what you said about the Yes no, and, and the, let's see, because I think, and also the building the spine through the No, because I found that my, the, the biggest thing that I had to say to people was, well.

[00:24:28] Alessandro Frosali: To find what you want. [00:24:30] An easier way of getting there is actually really defining your nose, is really defining your nose, right?

[00:24:37] Mikah Jones: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:39] Alessandro Frosali: Because the moment you define your nose, you create a scope. And yes, if you might not be able to articulate a yes, because sometimes you're right, the men, if anything, feel content, you know, with a, whether I want 50 KA year or whether I want 500 KA year.

[00:24:52] Alessandro Frosali: Like I, I, I could have either, you know, like, or whether I want this or that. I could have either. But what is your, no. And so for one [00:25:00] client is like living with the parents of your partner. Is that a note? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a fuck a no. It's like, well then that's a no. You do know there is something that you want, there is something that you want.

[00:25:12] Alessandro Frosali: Right? So, what do you, what do you see with that?

[00:25:14] Mikah Jones: I find that, like, going off of your anchor analogy, right, no puts you in the best position possible to receive your partner's submarine of an experience. You were as [00:25:30] rooted as possible 'cause there couldn't be, you couldn't have said something that is more true to you In that moment, I honestly would say, like, you're triggered and you get defensive because you're flailing in the wind. Not because you're rooted. You wouldn't, there's no need to get defensive if you know what your no is. That's part of it. But sometimes the, at some point, if you just tell someone, no. It's like this is, this is my, no. And [00:26:00] it's, it's like a, the conversation just starts because you said no, it doesn't really finish 'cause you said no. This is where I think the idea of compromise or creativity kind of, I think steps into the mix. 'cause if this is, this is something you're not willing to tolerate or put up with or have in your guys' dynamic, what is your Yes. What would make this more of a yes. What do you wanna do with that? And you wanna try and the goal [00:26:30] of it is when you're having that conversation that's continued with your partner, after you've already expressed the no is getting yourself closer and closer to your body.

[00:26:39] Mikah Jones: Being more relaxed, maybe more open. That's a sign that that idea is probably a yes or a very far over. Let's see. That's the space that you wanna get to somatically. 'cause that's not gonna have any resentment. There's no blame down the line that you're gonna have for her because you decided to take her side or go with her suggestion. [00:27:00] I think it's a really nice pocket to be. No. Gives you your scope and then you build the bigger scope of what your yes is off of that.

[00:27:09] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, and I think the thing is if you're grounded in a no and you, you understand yourself. You know, 'cause sometimes we say no just as a knee jerk reaction, right? We say no and we actually, it's, it's not that we say we, we mean no. It's more that there is something un behind you that is uncomfortable or that that is a, that is a no.

[00:27:28] Alessandro Frosali: And I think [00:27:30] maybe the, the deeper thing behind this is actually to, to understand yourself, to understand your body, to understand these gut, things. Because I love how you say like, no starts a conversation because it often does. And, and I, I truly believe the worst thing you can do is not honor that No.

[00:27:49] Alessandro Frosali: And slip or drift straight into a, a yes just to shut your woman up.

[00:27:54] Mikah Jones: Yep.

[00:27:55] Alessandro Frosali: Just because it's too hard. Just because it's too, ah, [00:28:00] yeah. Okay. Okay. We'll deal with it. Because the thing is, it's like I, I feel like the feminine is a beautiful, beautiful sparring partner for you to be able to actually find out exactly what it is you truly want. So the moment that you say no, and your wife goes, ah, ah, what do you mean?

[00:28:18] Alessandro Frosali: No, you, she's like, testing your, no, it's friction. It's not, it's not like Now I have to capitulate because again, she'll fricking judge you for capitulating. [00:28:30] That's, she doesn't want a man who just capitulates, but at the same time, she also wants to get her way too. So it's this lovely little dance that starts, but at that point, you can hear what she has to say because she'll tell you what she has to say.

[00:28:43] Alessandro Frosali: That's another beautiful thing about the feminine.

[00:28:46] Mikah Jones: A word.

[00:28:47] Alessandro Frosali: Oh, she will tell you exactly what she wants to say, but. If you have a strong understanding of who you are, you can then with the new information that your wife has come up with [00:29:00] Redecide, is this still a yes or is still a a, let's see. Or still a no. And I think that's the, the thing that maybe people miss is that as soon as they get friction, ah, and here's the thing, no spine, because there's no, there's no ability to handle the friction.

[00:29:14] Mikah Jones: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:15] Alessandro Frosali: No ability to handle the friction, which again, goes back to what we were talking about. We're talking about these three stages of men and, and, and I want to take this back to bad men because I'm looking at this and I'm going, I still believe all spine is [00:29:30] bad. All heart with no spine is bad too,

[00:29:34] Mikah Jones: Yes.

[00:29:35] Alessandro Frosali: because if you don't have a spine and you can't handle friction, you are just. People pleasing and you're saying yes, but you're actually resenting and she will resent you too.

[00:29:46] Mikah Jones: Yes,

[00:29:47] Alessandro Frosali: It's not authentic,

[00:29:48] Mikah Jones: it's not, and

[00:29:50] Mikah Jones: that's the

[00:29:51] Alessandro Frosali: truth. 

[00:29:51] Mikah Jones: And I think that's really what, like the greatest gift you can ever give anyone is your truth. 'cause then what's required of them is to give [00:30:00] you their truth. It's a, it's like if you want someone to be honest with you, your commitment to honesty matches that. Right. 

[00:30:08] Alessandro Frosali: That's all good. I'm writing down that. That was a beautiful thing. The greatest thing, the gift you can give anyone is your truth. Yours had a lovely cracker of a line before, which was your body is the only way you can measure your life. Love those two. Love those two.

[00:30:22] Mikah Jones: Those were developed over just so many years, man, of like,

[00:30:26] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, we, we we're putting them on a meme straight after this.

[00:30:30] Mikah Jones: [00:30:30] oh man, I, I, I, really find that like, you know, if, if you're going to, like, you know, when you were going with the three layers of Ben, it means that essentially over the course of time, we've, we've always been trying to figure out how do we get as many people as possible, productive, efficient, happy, whatever the goals are.

[00:30:52] Mikah Jones: That city, state, country, how do we get as many people doing that as possible? Well, you have to create [00:31:00] societal standards. You have to create agreed morality and. And this is where I think we're getting to some middle ground of a world where the more that you follow your truth, the less videos you're probably gonna see on the internet that actually align with thing that is true for you. Sometimes depending on what it is, of course, I think there's some things that are just rules for most people or patterns for most [00:31:30] people. But sometimes the thing that you want and the thing that's like the total yes for you is the thing that like someone's gonna be like, well, it kind of like makes you an asshole. Or like that kind of like, I don't like that. And I think it just brings me back. It's so funny. It's a theme in my own life. Remember the book, the Courage to Be Disliked?

[00:31:52] Mikah Jones: It was like, I think 

[00:31:53] Alessandro Frosali: I actually read that for the first time quite recently, like two months ago.

[00:31:57] Mikah Jones: oh, I've read it so many years ago. So I'm not gonna be [00:32:00] like reference it super well, but just the concept of the like. what? Like following the rhythm of your own heart and the life that you want to live, allowing yourself to follow that puts you in the best position to handle any circumstance from there.

[00:32:17] Mikah Jones: But I also would say like I pair that with like, you don't wanna get, especially 'cause if you're in a marriage or you're in a committed relationship, you need to pair that truth with consideration. There are things that, and this is [00:32:30] where I think sometimes we can find ourselves in a like outside of just like what's your no.

[00:32:34] Mikah Jones: And outside of what like your Yes is to something. Sometimes I think I can go two ways with this, but like men get caught up in. Blaming someone, blaming their wife in this case for their own lack of accountability or taking action on their truth and the life that they want to live, and so that they feel like they've done everything for their partner [00:33:00] when it's not like you have to overly course correct and only do stuff for yourself. If you're gonna do something for another person, you do it. You do it under the intention of service like that. That concept has felt so big for me.

[00:33:16] Alessandro Frosali: Hmm,

[00:33:17] Mikah Jones: It can turn something that is kind of like a no into something that is a yes because you've changed your relationship with how you're going to show up to this thing

[00:33:25] Alessandro Frosali: .

[00:33:25] Alessandro Frosali: I think what we touch on here is, which is really interesting. And, and [00:33:30] you know, and the whole theme for today is bad men. And, and interesting enough, like I also trained with like Dr. Anna Rubenstein with his, the Boy to Man model. And then we we're talking about masculine and feminine, and then we're talking about, you know, all, all these different models and way to see the world and all of this, and, you know, these three stages of man and all of, interestingly enough, and I'll get your take on this.

[00:33:56] Alessandro Frosali: I believe that these are all archetypes, these are [00:34:00] archetypal. It's like a way of doing archetypal psychology or philosophy so that we can identify parts of ourselves within them, find some meaning of purpose within our life, and move towards them as ideals or standards as long as they fit within what the blueprint within each of us actually feels is right or wrong.

[00:34:21] Alessandro Frosali: So they become tools that help us get to where we want to go based on our gut instincts and the feelings within us. So they're not reality, you know, [00:34:30] like there is no such thing as masculine feminine. We literally just have like, there is, but there isn't. These are amalgamations of archetypes based on a bunch of different things.

[00:34:39] Alessandro Frosali: And, and I think with that, if we, if we put that in mind, like I think it goes right back to exactly your line here, which I think is the fundamental thing of the day, is your body is the only way you can measure your life.

[00:34:52] Mikah Jones: It simplifies everything. You know, I've, I've done, I, how many, there's so many of those fucking personality tests out there. [00:35:00] I'm an INFJ. If you ask Myers Briggs,

[00:35:02] Mikah Jones: I am a objector. If you ask human design, I am a Gemini mixed with this thing and this thing and this thing. If I'm a astrology and you ask the questions about that, and it's all of these archetypes about stuff.

[00:35:13] Mikah Jones: But I find that like. I agree completely with your point of like the purpose of them. I think they serve a really good purpose, but they serve a purpose of awareness. They don't serve a purpose of utility. Like you can't do anything with that. Like I think a measurement is is nice, [00:35:30] but it's still someone else decided upon your standards.

[00:35:35] Mikah Jones: You 

[00:35:35] Alessandro Frosali: interesting? Is, is there, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna ask you a quick question that just came up, which I think I've never heard before. Do you think there is utility in understanding, in being understood and having, and feeling as if you are understood because that's what they're providing?

[00:35:50] Alessandro Frosali: Right?

[00:35:50] Mikah Jones: I would argue, no,

[00:35:52] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. That's almost like a little bit of, isn't it? It.

[00:35:55] Mikah Jones: I would, I would argue no. Knowing that like I'm here now and [00:36:00] like, but I

[00:36:00] Mikah Jones: find that. Archetypal information. Oh, I say this more people. You don't need to be understood if you live in your body. Like that's not even a desire that you have. It doesn't

[00:36:12] Mikah Jones: come 

[00:36:12] Alessandro Frosali: but so many people so far away from their bodies that we feel like we need to understand so that we get back into the body.

[00:36:18] Mikah Jones: Exactly. So that's the goal of it is it's the bridge that gap

[00:36:22] Alessandro Frosali: it's always bring it back to your body, but because most people have no fucking idea how to, we need to actually get them back there through things are being understood, because otherwise, [00:36:30] you and I wouldn't have a job

[00:36:32] Mikah Jones: even. Exactly.

[00:36:33] Mikah Jones: And, everyone just connected with their body. We wouldn't have a job.

[00:36:36] Mikah Jones: exactly. I would, I would get to go live in the woods and be totally fucking fine with that. So I, I would be totally fine with that. But in, in ways, there is a purpose to this. Like I ask so many clients, it's one of the first things on every fricking call, they'll tell me something that they want. It's perfectly fine, whatever it is. I wanna be happy, I wanna be loved, I wanna be this, I wanna be that. I want a million dollars. Who gives a [00:37:00] fuck what it is, bro? It doesn't really matter to me. At the end of the day, when we start to get to the questions of what does that make you feel or what does that feel like in your body? I get everything but an emotion.

[00:37:10] Mikah Jones: I get a story about a feeling like, I feel like I would have this like water flowing through my body. What are you talking about my guy? Like the feeling, it's stories about this, it's stories about that. It's like, how would you describe that in emotions? It comes back to the same, as I said earlier, groundedness, joy, peace. [00:37:30] It's not very different, especially from it. It's not very different than that. And then when you ask them, 'cause that's one thing, right? Like a feeling is like an emotion is is like part of it, but it's, it's like still adjacent to the body in a way as at least what it feels like for me. Where do you feel that the most, and how would you describe that as a texture? As a temperature, as a sensation. When you have that answer, that's your actual measurement for your life. You can build stuff [00:38:00] around that. 'cause if you don't have that, you'll get wavered in all of these other things.

[00:38:04] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. Yeah. We're so like, I mean, this is where the whole battle of the head and the head and the body come in, you know? And it's, and in a weird way, you know, I'm, I'm reading the, the, the Dao for another time, and it's, and it always talks about just like the, the, the mentor hilariously is speaking and yet he, if, if he.

[00:38:29] Alessandro Frosali: [00:38:30] The world was perfect. He wouldn't even need to speak because essentially he knows that even speaking itself, yes, you're trying to say the most pure thing that you can, but even speaking itself is of the mind rather than literally just listening to the blueprint within and the way within. And, and yet we must speak and yet we must continue to battle and do all of this because it's, it's just how we communicate.

[00:38:55] Alessandro Frosali: It's how we go through this all. 

[00:38:58] Mikah Jones: Ooh, can I riff on that really [00:39:00] quickly?

[00:39:00] Alessandro Frosali: please do.

[00:39:00] Mikah Jones: That, that brings me to this thing that I heard like maybe five, six years ago now, which was like, defensiveness is, is is the making of the mind is like, it's as a concept. It's just like if you, and if language was no longer happening between two people and your partner was just saying sounds, you couldn't understand what she was saying and you were just saying sounds,

[00:39:24] Mikah Jones: all you would have is your body's experience of that and you're kind of like, ah. [00:39:30] Like you would feel some kind of way about that and then you would maybe engage accordingly. But the words at this whole other thing to it that makes

[00:39:40] Mikah Jones: it like, I'm not good enough and it makes it about this thing and it makes it about that thing and like it's, it's. I think the words, they're helpful. I think for, I think communication of language.

[00:39:54] Mikah Jones: I think language is beautiful. I'm learning two others right now. I think it's a beautiful thing. But [00:40:00] ultimately, if you stripped everything and everyone was just making sounds, then they're just saying words with sounds, with intent towards you. If you don't like the intent, you could just ignore it.

[00:40:10] Alessandro Frosali: Or is what? What is it that, is it someone like Confucius or Buddha said it like a gift doesn't, you know, words are like a gift or insults are like a gift and you can, you can choose to open the box or not. Or you could, you know.

[00:40:24] Mikah Jones: Like negative is is someone handing you a letter and you decided to, [00:40:30] to pick it up like it's you. You accepted the invitations to the table. I make it super simple whenever people bring up to me these like. They like really pissed me off and I'm like, it just sounds like you accepted an invitation.

[00:40:41] Mikah Jones: That's just what it sounds like. It kind, I try and make it simple. I try and not add all of this other stuff to the way that I work with people. 'cause it's just there's actions.

[00:40:51] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. Yeah, you're a hundred percent right. I mean, I'm literally as well in the middle of writing tomorrow's, uh, better husband email. And, [00:41:00] uh, tomorrow's better husband. EAL is about the proverbial shit pile I call it, which is essentially, I just believe that everybody in this world has a proverbial shit pile that they have.

[00:41:12] Alessandro Frosali: And, and their shit pile could be filled with their shadow. It could be filled with, you know, traumas. It could be filled with the responsibilities, their, what they should do, their purpose, the things that are theirs, that their shit, you know, not anybody else's shit, their shit. And so [00:41:30] I think this world would be a better place if we all just could identify what is our proverbial shit pile and other people's proverbial shit pile.

[00:41:39] Alessandro Frosali: And so if somebody's gonna pick up some of their proverbial shit and fling it at you, you could work out. Do you need to then go start shoveling their shit or do you just continue shoveling your shit? 'cause in the end, that's the only way through. So I think, I think it's, um. Ah, but every fucking point, okay, always comes back to, it always comes back to, [00:42:00] you've gotta identify that in your body.

[00:42:01] Mikah Jones: You do it. I literally, it's a call that I had right before this. It was with a woman. Her husband experiences low self-esteem. Not gonna tell the whole situation, but like there's a pattern of that in the relationship. She's doing more of a leader role right now. When he first finally was able to communicate and he tried, well, he's just, where he is in his awareness journey.

[00:42:20] Mikah Jones: I'll just say it like that. She was, he was trying to blame her for his drinking, her body. Rejected that shit so quickly [00:42:30] because it, it does not, like your body does not pick up other people's stuff. It's like the fuck outta here. Like, that's, that's not me. Her body literally relaxed and was like, no, like, that's not mine. And she felt that in her core, but the only way that she knew that is because she was in touch with this enough that she didn't let this take over. She didn't let her mind take over. And it became about this whole other thing. It's, it's, it's, you know, when I first was doing, like, when I was [00:43:00] starting to add somatics into work with people, I was really worried that when I was like first learning, like the trainings and learning from my mentors, like I thought we were gonna do, like, you know, with those, some of those videos, people like, oh, you know, the, the dramatic, like, just really dramatic, overly spiritual things is what it seems like.

[00:43:19] Mikah Jones: I'm like, I don't wanna be like that because that's not, I don't, you don't need to do all that just to make some change. Um, I had to really like, make sure and when I learned like [00:43:30] if we can just make everything really simple and you build simplicity around everything, like I have my clients now, they, they, they communicate to me in a way I can just tell it's really centered for them.

[00:43:40] Mikah Jones: 'cause they don't act like it's my idea anymore. They're like, yeah, I had two things this week. They were just like a total no, but they're things that I really care about and I really wanna explore how I can make them yeses. Literally their words. And I was like over like over the moon, be happy about that.

[00:43:55] Mikah Jones: 'cause that's someone that is looking at things accountably, [00:44:00] but is also not making anything overly complicated. It's just about preferences.

[00:44:06] Alessandro Frosali: But then also living the human experience of a acknowledging that it's, it's not something you have solved or fixed yet, and that it's something to work through, you know? And there's a lot. Lot to work through in this human experience. It's not something you can just switch from yes to no in a thing like that.

[00:44:22] Alessandro Frosali: We need people, we need to talk to people and have things like that. I wanna back on the somatic work. Um,[00:44:30] hilariously, like my wife went to a somatic workshop and she was so excited for it. So she's jumping into the whole feminine side of things and, and she's, she's brilliant. She's, she's just this, she's truly jumping into femininity in, its, if you know anything of like Hindu gods or whatever in its Carly kind of nature, she just loves this idea of just going like, I'm unashamedly gonna be fucking chaotic feminine.

[00:44:56] Alessandro Frosali: You know, like that's what she wants. And I'm like, good [00:45:00] on her. She's gonna take the good, the bad everything together. But anyway, she went to the somatic workshop and and she's like, she said to me at the beginning in a very dry German way, I really fucking hope it's not gonna be this kind of.

[00:45:15] Alessandro Frosali: For the people just listening, what I did was like throw my body up and down because that's what sometimes happens. That performative somatic work.

[00:45:23] Mikah Jones: Yes. I think that's a

[00:45:25] Mikah Jones: fair way to put it. Yeah.

[00:45:26] Alessandro Frosali: performative somatic work. So she did it and then she came [00:45:30] back, she went, it was that, I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. uh, I had the same, I had the same experience when I moved to Bali and I, um, the first thing I, I, I would've considered myself to be quite spiritual when I first moved to Bali.

[00:45:46] Alessandro Frosali: And, uh, I mean, my mother's a, my mother's a psychic tarot reader. Like she, she's got 1.3 million followers on TikTok. She's been a tarot reader for her whole life. [00:46:00] And that's how I kind of grew up. And, and regardless of how I view it now, you know, it was quite something. I was like, oh, I'm quite a spiritual guy.

[00:46:06] Alessandro Frosali: And then I got to Bali and I just saw everybody. saw everybody like arriving on the floor. I saw people with their heads really, essentially in the clouds and, and, and it felt so far removed from what my gut knew was spirituality. And I like left spirituality for a very long point in time because it, it felt like a club like some kind [00:46:30] of, clique at school, you know?

[00:46:32] Alessandro Frosali: And you have to be cool to do it. And, and, and then I realized what it was later and years later and, and in the last couple of years I realized spirituality is not, is actually not anything. It's no woo, it's no religion or whatever. It's, it's a fundamental truth of connection to self connection to other people.

[00:46:51] Alessandro Frosali: If we're gonna talk about that, um, the courage to be disliked the end of that book is essentially a. We are all one and a connection to everyone [00:47:00] else. Having a responsibility to sell for your own purpose and a responsibility for the community to give your purpose away, and that is what I believe is spirituality and everything like religion, breath work, meditation, somatic, anything that is labeled spirituality are literally just tools to help you get to that feeling.

[00:47:22] Mikah Jones: Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more like the i when it comes to spirituality for me, I think I've [00:47:30] had a, I went through the most of the gamut and I would say, like, I, I was, say it, I wanna say this in a way. Yeah. I'm gonna say this a little bit more accountably. I had an experience with spirituality. Where I thought the answer was to only have the high good feelings. If I could have that all the time, then I must be enlightened. That's where I started. And I think that that's like a, it [00:48:00] just, it's, it was, I would describe as like a very westernized desire. 'cause you don't really learn that in Asia. You don't really learn that like it comes from the West.

[00:48:09] Mikah Jones: That type of like attachment to the good only. And I never really clicked super well with like, I think spiritual people and like those communities trying to do a lot of that stuff like that just never really made a lot of sense to me. I always thought that like spirituality was very much a [00:48:30] individual journey, has nothing to do with other people.

[00:48:33] Mikah Jones: And that's where I started and I got decently far and I, I found myself like being able to actually shut off my mind and. Plenty of fun things that like, I think monks work acts. I was doing that for a little bit of my life, but I also found myself like spirituality to me is just like, it's ultimately living a life as close to your truth as possible. That is the, that's the most spiritual thing you can do. [00:49:00] Meditation, I, I meditate pretty routinely 'cause I really enjoy it right now. I went like a couple years without really doing none of it. I did yoga for quite a bit, but now like I just, I like sitting there just enjoying the breath. I think things go by 'cause it just feels true for this moment.

[00:49:16] Mikah Jones: It doesn't need to be who I am or I'm not expecting it to give me anything. And I mean that, that leads to like a whole other thing about I think people's relationship with tools. I think we have a very [00:49:30] codependent. Relationship with tools. It's kind of like breath work has my peace, I don't have peace like as if, or even meditation or anything. And then it's almost kinda like it's borrowed

[00:49:45] Mikah Jones: so you get it, but then you go right back to whatever you,

[00:49:48] Mikah Jones: whatever. 

[00:49:48] Alessandro Frosali: And then imagine you going on a holiday and you don't have access, or it's like you're difficult. You can't, you can't meditate or you don't have breath work. ability to do that because things in life get rushed. And then what you're just gonna give away All [00:50:00] that sense of,

[00:50:01] Mikah Jones: Exactly.

[00:50:02] Mikah Jones: And, and you're, and then you just realize that you were essentially just operating off of a borrowed experience and that's your doing and it's your relationship to it. And that's, I, I described this to one of the clients 'cause she had that, she tried everything and have like breath work on Tuesdays therapy on this day in Psychic medium on Friday.

[00:50:21] Mikah Jones: It was so routine. And I was like, whoa, that's a lot. We worked at it slowly, but I, um, essentially brought up that concept to her and I just [00:50:30] invited her. I was like, you might enjoy this idea. And this comes back to the thing I was saying about service

[00:50:34] Alessandro Frosali: Mm.

[00:50:36] Mikah Jones: Breathwork is you don't just take something from breathwork. Breath work requires something of you. You are being of service to that space for you to participate in. Breath work requires you, yes, to have a calm environment and things, but your willingness to breathe,

[00:50:50] Mikah Jones: your willingness to be peaceful, your willingness to relax.

[00:50:54] Alessandro Frosali: mm.

[00:50:55] Mikah Jones: So it's taking it out of this external thing and this is the thing that's creating it, and [00:51:00] I'm bringing that to the environment. So now that when I walk away, I have it either way. 'cause I'm being of service to each moment or being of service to the tool. I find that like, that, that concept I learned from, do you know Flynn?

[00:51:12] Mikah Jones: Skidmore is. Oh, I'll send you his stuff too. He's one of my,

[00:51:15] Mikah Jones: he was 

[00:51:16] Alessandro Frosali: do.

[00:51:16] Mikah Jones: he was one of my first mentors actually, and this was one of the few concepts he was bringing up to me. I think like early on in the work, he used an example of like the podcast where like he used to have a lot of resistance to, to like [00:51:30] making a podcast and talking and different things. We got through some of like the topic resistance and stuff. He had like this fear of the microphone and this like fear of the headphones and fear of his voice being seen. And he was like, he's just, he's just making it all about him and his fears and and stuff. He actually started to personify the microphone.

[00:51:49] Mikah Jones: What does the microphone wants to experience? What sounds, does it want me to reverberate into it? How does it want me to take care of it? And it [00:52:00] shifted his perspective from gaining and losing, which I describe as insecurity when you're focused on something and being of service to something. When you're in service of something, you always show up to what's needed no matter what.

[00:52:13] Mikah Jones: You can always do that. It's like a, I always say to people when they're like, I, I feel like I can't do that. Let's say right now, middle of this call, your friend texts you saying, I have the biggest emergency of my life and call you. All of a sudden you're stressed, your worries, whatever the fucking problems are going on [00:52:30] in your life, you can put that to the side for a second and all of a sudden you have presence, space, patience, curiosity, questions, solving.

[00:52:38] Mikah Jones: All of these things are abundantly available to you now. Interesting, right. Environment, clear on how to show up for it. Service, you're able to do that and I, and I think that's something that more people can, can benefit from. The idea of being a service is something and knowing how to create [00:53:00] a relationship with things so that you can service to it.

[00:53:02] Alessandro Frosali: I love that. I love that. And I think, um. Even in that, an example that you were talking about of that, that woman who is like clockwork doing everything. I think there's also a lot of wisdom to be found in the thing that you were avoiding. And so if, if she were to have a look at her schedule, that doesn't look like there's any space.

[00:53:23] Alessandro Frosali: Look at that. It's like if you wanna be in service of anything, being in service of what you're avoiding. [00:53:30] Because if that's space, then, and I think that's the other thing is I'm, I'm looking at all these tools and I realize that like any tool that's ever worked for me tends to be the one that I am resisting the most.

[00:53:43] Mikah Jones: Yes.

[00:53:44] Alessandro Frosali: It's like, I don't wanna do breath work. Yeah. Breath work wants you to do it.

[00:53:48] Mikah Jones: And if you just in, in the resistance, it's literally like 10, 15 minutes of discomfort max.

[00:53:55] Mikah Jones: You get over that. It's like the

[00:53:55] Mikah Jones: pomodora, like they prove that it's 15 minutes of [00:54:00] it's 15 minutes of accepting discomfort and resistance was, you can do that. You've now put yourself into flow. I think it's the same thing with like, it's 10 to 15 minutes of you being uncomfortable with this thing you have resistance to, and all of a sudden it will start to change you. After that

[00:54:17] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah.

[00:54:18] Mikah Jones: meditation when I was, ugh, I think I was probably resisting it for a time too. I was like, oh no, I don't wanna sit there and do that. And then at one day, I mean, I'm a, I'm a little bit more of a, I've done it for a while so I know I enjoy longer [00:54:30] sessions. So like, fuck it two hours,

[00:54:31] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:32] Mikah Jones: but time around for two hours, shut the fuck up and just sit there first 20 minutes like hell was I fighting that?

[00:54:39] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:40] Mikah Jones: Every thought getting lost into everything. Judging the fact that I'm not focusing on my breath or whatnot. And then at some point I just, ah, here we are. Okay. What's next? That's next, that's next, that's next. And everything just became much more [00:55:00] like it is.

[00:55:01] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:04] Mikah Jones: I just, I can tell I'm comfortable. Yeah. I.

[00:55:07] Alessandro Frosali: A hundred percent. Well, we are gonna hop off pretty soon, but before we do Micah, we have to come back to the original question. I like this as a new format for this show. By the way, this, uh, this podcast has actually given me an idea of how I wanna take, shut the fuck up, and listen going forward in the, in the future, starting it with a question, allowing ourselves to divulge into whatever we talk about.

[00:55:28] Alessandro Frosali: And then right at the end, coming back [00:55:30] to the question. Let's come back to the question. So with everything that we've sort of gone through today, you believe that men are afraid to be bad men. What do you mean by that?

[00:55:38] Mikah Jones: I think that men and my answer's changing now. 

[00:55:40] Mikah Jones: We talked 

[00:55:41] Alessandro Frosali: Good. 

[00:55:41] Mikah Jones: of this. I think that men are afraid that their truth is something that will hurt other people in their life and something that will get them to be isolated from others. And that fear of losing someone that they care about puts them in a situation where they're going to start to [00:56:00] overvalue how other people feel above themselves. And that is what we could say is the closest thing to a bad man. Someone who is not rooted, has no backbone and. It's someone that is not honoring their truth 'cause their lack of truth puts everyone else in a position where it's gonna be hard for them to access theirs.

[00:56:21] Alessandro Frosali: Thank you for, thank you for your time today, Micah.

[00:56:25] Mikah Jones: Of course, man, this is great. 

[00:56:26] Alessandro Frosali: That's the episode. That's all I got for you today. I just want you to remember you're not [00:56:30] alone in this. Make sure you subscribe to stay connected, of course, and comment your win. You know? 'cause every time a man sees other men winning, they don't feel alone anymore, and I love that tools are in the show notes, starting with the better husband in two minute emails.

[00:56:43] Alessandro Frosali: Let's build this together. I'll see you next week.