STFUAL - From Boy to Man to Better Husband

How Men Are Conditioned to Be Unemotional and Why Fatherhood Breaks You Open with Relationship Coach, Jay Tibbs | EP 26

• Alessandro Frosali - Men's Coach • Season 2 • Episode 26

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What if being emotionally unavailable in your marriage isn't a character flaw but a survival pattern you learned as a boy?

I sit down with Jay Tibbs, a relationship coach who knows what it's like to be emotionally shut down and what it takes to crack open. Jay breaks down the "realm of existence" most men are completely blind to, not because they're weak, but because they were trained out of it.

From boyhood, we learn that emotions are dangerous, that feeling makes you less of a man. But here's the truth: your greatest power is on the other side of what you're avoiding.

Chapters:
02:14 – How Boys Get Trained Out of Feeling
04:37 – Why Men Think It’s “Either Stoic or Weak”
08:49 – Shutdown, Fixing, Disappearing: His Default Patterns
12:58 – The Pain Under the Anger Men Don’t Talk About
19:56 – Turning Pain Into Power Instead of Destruction
23:38 – Why Hyper-Rational Men Can’t Access Emotion
35:09 – Fatherhood, Tears, and the Call That Changed Everything
42:18 – The Message to Men: It’s Not Your Fault, But It Is Your Work

We go deep on how emotional disconnection shows up in marriage: the shutdown, the fixing, the anger that's really pain underneath. Jay shares his own rock-bottom moment (a suicide hotline call that changed everything) and why his wife finally trusted him after he fully went there. 

This is about cultivating the strength to feel without being carried away, and using your wife as a guide into territory you've been avoiding your whole life.
If you've ever been told you're emotionally unavailable, if your wife says she can't feel your presence, or if you're stuck and don't know why, this conversation will show you exactly where the gold is buried.

It's not your fault you're disconnected. But it is your responsibility to find your way back.

Listen and learn how listening to your own heart is the warrior move you've been missing.

Connect with Jay: https://www.instagram.com/mrjaytibbs/?hl=en

Become a Better Husband in Just Two Minutes a Week for Free: HERE

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Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy. Always seek qualified guidance for your personal situation.

Views shared by Alessandro Frosali and his guests reflect their lived experiences and opinions. Every listener’s journey is unique, and no therapeutic relationship is created.

[00:00:00] Alessandro Frosali: So welcome Jay. You 

[00:00:01] Jay Tibbs: Thank you. 

[00:00:02] Alessandro Frosali: need to shut the fuck up and listen to their hearts and their emotional landscape.

[00:00:07] Now, 

[00:00:07] Jay Tibbs: I. 

[00:00:08] Alessandro Frosali: from a man, what the fuck does that actually mean?

[00:00:11] Jay Tibbs: What the fuck does that actually mean? Well, it's uh, it's complex and it took me a while to figure it out, but I think that it boils down to, as men, we have been so primed to value and tune into logic, strategy, the mental playing, you know, the whole left brain side of it. And there is a whole realm of intelligence and existence that has nothing to do with logic and nothing to do with. Strategy and tactical thinking and has everything to do with intuition, emotion, feeling a more subtle realm of perception that, you know, we are very unaccustomed to and we are programmed out of tuning into. And that when men do shut the fuck up and listen to their hearts and their emotional landscape, they end up living a far richer life. They end up actually being more [00:01:00] strategic and tactical and able to. Maneuver in the world because they have a whole other side of intelligence that's unlocked and all around. They will live fuller lives and be far more successful in their relationships with their women.

[00:01:15] Alessandro Frosali: That's, I mean, Jesus, you just opened up something big there. I had to write that line 

[00:01:20] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:01:21] Alessandro Frosali: was a realm of existence that has nothing to do with logic,

[00:01:25] Jay Tibbs: Yes.

[00:01:26] Alessandro Frosali: We have a realm of existence. 

[00:01:29] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:01:29] Alessandro Frosali: men then believe that they're in one realm when there is a whole other realm? Or has this realm always existed for them?

[00:01:36] Like what is the reason that this is separated?

[00:01:39] Jay Tibbs: Well, look, the, the realm always exists, right? We are, we are born as humans with full access to the full spectrum of human experience, you know, and I have a son, I have a daughter. They both have, and they're young. You know, the babies and toddlers, full expression, they express happiness, [00:02:00] sadness. You know, obviously the logic part hasn't come in, so it's not super, you know, relevant to that analogy.

[00:02:06] But as men, we come into this world with a full feeling capacity. As we grow, I'm sure you've heard this and I'm sure any man listening to this will be able to relate to the conditioning. We start to receive early on of big boys. Don't cry. You know, toughen up. Don't be a girl. Don't cry like a girl. And while this just seems normal 'cause it's so normalized, what it's doing is you are training a human being to disconnect from the realm of. Emotional expression and sensitivity told not to be soft, not to be sensitive, but being soft and being sensitive is exactly the skillset that enables you to tap into that realm

[00:02:46] of emotionality and of the heart. And when you get told not to do that over and over again and threatened with your sense of belonging and approval and identity, that that capacity atrophies. And then men grow [00:03:00] up literally without the nervous system capability of accessing. That whole realm of emotion. And when they try to, it just, they react mostly with anger or frustration or shutdown. 'cause that whole side of feeling is so overwhelming and is conditioned to be, you know, associated with risk of loss of approval in their nervous system that they just, they can't access it.

[00:03:25] So, long story short, yes, it's always existed. All men have capacity to access it. It's a completely normal and. Natural part of all human beings existence. We just get trained to avoid it, fear it, or just be completely oblivious to it as men. 

[00:03:43] Alessandro Frosali: It's really interesting because what comes up when, when you speak about that, and I wonder whether this is, I'll get your take on this. I'm noticing a lot in the work that I do that. There is a prevailing mindset for the masculine, I'll call it that, because it might not necessarily [00:04:00] be specific to gender, but 

[00:04:01] Jay Tibbs: Mm. 

[00:04:02] Alessandro Frosali: specific to the, to the role or the energy of, um, but there is a prevailing like tendency to think either or.

[00:04:10] So when you say like, there is a realm of existence that has nothing to do with logic, man or a MAs, the, the masculine might go well. so then now I have to be a cry baby.

[00:04:21] Jay Tibbs: Yeah,

[00:04:23] Alessandro Frosali: Like now I have to be this and, and there's this interesting thing where we instantly go from one extreme to the other. Can you speak to why, why do you believe that there are these, such of these extremes and, and what part does temperance and balance have to play in this?

[00:04:37] Jay Tibbs: that's a good question. Look, I agree. And I think that there, there definitely is that perception that it's one or the other. And there is that perception that, you know, I'm either stoic and tough and a man, or I'm just like a little snowflake wimp who cries all the time about everything. And you, you do see the, the pendulum swinging and there, there are [00:05:00] some men that have taken it to that extreme where it's like, let me record myself crying on Instagram all the time.

[00:05:04] And. You know, I think that puts off men as well sometimes, but I think that just men don't understand because they haven't had the experience of navigating that realm. They, they think it is either or. So they, it's so foreign that they think if I'm doing that, then I can't be doing this. And, you know, that's, that's just being misinformed.

[00:05:26] 'cause the truth is, and I, I know you're well aware of this, is that it actually requires strength. To have the courage to feel those things, you know, really, I think if men could see that it's actually warrior shit to, to feel and open your heart, especially when you've

[00:05:43] been conditioned out of it. It, it's, it's not soft at all.

[00:05:46] You know, it actually is very scary and therefore requires real strength and courage to, to even go there and it doesn't look like just crying all the time. It just looks like being able to express and [00:06:00] feel things as they come. And, and you know, not being overwhelmed by them. Keeping your back straight and just allowing those emotions to move through and not shutting down or just masking them with anger and yeah, I think that, why do men think it's either or?

[00:06:16] And I agree with you. I see that all the time too. I think it's just because it's just a lack of familiarity. You know, they

[00:06:22] haven't dipped their toes in it and so it just seems foreign and they, therefore they think it, they can't coexist 'cause they've never coexisted in that individual man.

[00:06:31] Alessandro Frosali: Hmm. Yeah. I kind of look at it like, cultivating the skill to be vulnerable, but not necessarily carried away by the emotions. 

[00:06:39] Jay Tibbs: Mm. 

[00:06:39] Alessandro Frosali: it's like, and that does require temperance. And I think that's probably the really difficult thing about it is it's not necessarily, 'cause if you wanna delve all the way into emotions, then.

[00:06:49] Yeah, that, that goes to one extreme and, and the opposite of crazy is still crazy. I love that line. I dunno, whoever 

[00:06:54] Jay Tibbs: That's, 

[00:06:55] Alessandro Frosali: but the opposite of crazy is still crazy. So 

[00:06:57] Jay Tibbs: uh,

[00:06:57] that's good. 

[00:06:58] Alessandro Frosali: you can't just 

[00:06:58] Jay Tibbs: That's good. 

[00:06:59] Alessandro Frosali: to the other. [00:07:00] You have to blend these in. So I'd love to know 

[00:07:02] Jay Tibbs: Mm, 

[00:07:03] Alessandro Frosali: when did you first realize that you were like, emotionally disconnected in your marriage?

[00:07:07] What, tell me about the, the emotional disconnection in your life and your story.

[00:07:11] Jay Tibbs: man. Well, I'll, it's a funny little anecdote. When I got together with my wife now about eight years ago, I literally told her that I just, I find it hard to relate to people who experience sadness. 'cause I just really feel like I don't have any. I feel like I, my life has been so perfect that I just don't have any shit. And she was like, okay, red flag. We'll see about that buddy. and you know, I mean, that was, that, that's hilarious. 'cause I had a whole host of stuff that I had to deal with and I had a lot in my childhood. That was, that was very traumatic. You know, there's, there was, there was stuff there. I just was a bit oblivious to it.

[00:07:51] So when did I realize. Honestly, I have to give credit to, to my wife Sophie. She was the guide [00:08:00] that led me into my heart to really start to recognize there's a bit more there than I had led on. And I think oftentimes it's the case that it's a woman that guides a man into his heart. And um, for me it was certainly the case.

[00:08:17] And I, I started

[00:08:17] unpacking and, you know, in the friction of relating and relationship and. Triggers getting triggered and mine and hers, I just started to uncover, whoa, man, there's a lot there that, you know,

[00:08:31] that, that 

[00:08:32] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, show me, show me, tell me 

[00:08:33] Jay Tibbs: how did, how did, how did it show up? Yeah, cool, man. How did it show up specifically? For me? It showed up in, in shutting down. It showed up in a real avoidance, you know, when, when things would get heated, when and emotions would come up. I would just disassociate or I would just. I would disappear or I would just get really triggered. I couldn't hold when she was upset or when, when, when things weren't all [00:09:00] good. I just had no capacity to hold it. I would either just instantly try and fix it and try to manage it and manipulate it so that you know, everything was fine or I would disassociate and just kind of go blank, and it took me a while to realize that that's a response to something. You know, that's that inability to hold is actually. Coming from the fact that I haven't addressed certain things and that what's coming up is pointing me towards that, and I would just do everything I could to not go there, you know, and then men's groups helped me understand that just being with other

[00:09:36] men and not having the space to unpack that reading, journaling, plant medicine, there's, there's a, it was a, a cacophony of things that

[00:09:47] kind of led me to. Go down that rabbit hole.

[00:09:50] Alessandro Frosali: Gotta love it. Gotta 

[00:09:51] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:09:52] Alessandro Frosali: hole when you go down and 

[00:09:53] Jay Tibbs: Oh man. 

[00:09:54] Alessandro Frosali: things open.

[00:09:55] Jay Tibbs: Something. You

[00:09:56] don't love it when it's happening though.

[00:09:57] Alessandro Frosali: I'd love to know, do you think [00:10:00] most people or most men specifically, do they think that they know that they're emotionally shut down or do you think it's so normalized that they can't even see it?

[00:10:07] Jay Tibbs: I think there's a spectrum of men. I think there's, quite a few men that just have no idea. You know, they just, it's so normalized. This is the fish in water, you know, they even have the belief that that is what it is to be a man,

[00:10:20] you know? But I think that. Underneath the surface, even of those men. And then, then there's another set of men that know, but they dunno what to do about it. But I'll go back to those men that think it's so normal. I think underneath the surface, man, we're all human, right? We, we all feel, even if you've repressed it, there is a certain layer of yourself that is dying. Experience our natural spectrum of emotion. So even those men, I think there's a part of themselves maybe just outta reach of their conscious mind that that is aware that, you know, they're emotionally stunted and that is distressed by that fact, you know?

[00:10:59] And I think [00:11:00] that. You can see it in the mental health statistics in men and the, the depression rates and The suicide rates amongst men. You know, there's this, there's something that's not right. And I think that just, that that inability for men to really access and open their hearts is very damaging, and

[00:11:20] men are crying out for it, you know, and sometimes they're just crying out

[00:11:23] for it and looking in the wrong. Areas for it. But

[00:11:26] Alessandro Frosali: Hmm.

[00:11:27] Jay Tibbs: yeah, it's felt,

[00:11:29] Alessandro Frosali: It's interesting. It's interesting because, you know, I, I, I noticed that. Yeah, there is something sickly at the heart of, of something. We don't know what it is, but we do know that when you start seeing the loneliness epidemic go up, that you know, men not having friends, men not being able 

[00:11:44] Jay Tibbs: hmm. 

[00:11:44] Alessandro Frosali: name best friends, men not being able to say that they can actually spend time with other men.

[00:11:48] And then you get someone like me on Instagram that starts saying that they need to fucking step up. And then they're like, why are you like, can't you see that we are hurting? should just give [00:12:00] us some like love through this. The interesting thing is, like, I've always thought that in a way this feels like our struggle at the moment as men is to actually pull ourselves out of it.

[00:12:12] and, and to get to the point where we can feel, ironically, I wanna get your take on this. There's almost a belief of mine here that the men that do feel, you know, that they're really stuck and that they're like in a suicide kind of place, might be the ones that are most emotionally shut down.

[00:12:29] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:12:31] Alessandro Frosali: They're, you know, they say that they're feeling, but they're actually, I think they're feeling the avoidance to feel,

[00:12:36] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. They're

[00:12:37] feeling

[00:12:37] the pain. They're feeling the pain of not feeling,

[00:12:40] Alessandro Frosali: of the disconnect. Yeah.

[00:12:41] Jay Tibbs: yeah. Yeah, I think that, I think you're spot on. And I mean, I actually, I know you're spot on because I was in that place, you know, I had a real moment of darkness where all those feelings were coming up, and this was after I had become a father, you know?

[00:12:57] So when you have

[00:12:57] kids that just a whole new [00:13:00] realm of feeling gets kicked into gear, you know, and if. You. Yeah. If you, if you got shit that you need to work on, that's gonna just turn, turn it up a notch and really show you what you need to work on. You know, and I can relate to what you just said from, from experience of really being in a, in a, in a dark place and feeling, yeah. The pain of not fully feeling. and that, and then cracking open and. Witnessing a remarkable transformation in

[00:13:30] myself, in my marriage, in my woman, and in the way she received me after having seen me crack open. And it just only benefit came from it,

[00:13:43] you know? So, yeah, I think

[00:13:46] those men are on the cusp. They're

[00:13:50] very close. Those men that are really struggling, that are really feeling that pain, I think that's actually a very poignant and potent place for them to be. 'cause like [00:14:00] they're right within reach of the breakthrough that will

[00:14:02] allow them to open up. 

[00:14:04] Alessandro Frosali: Again, what does that breakthrough look like? Like how, how does a man, if he's listening to this, his wife's pushed him to fucking 

[00:14:11] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:14:11] Alessandro Frosali: to this, you know, these weird

[00:14:13] Jay Tibbs: Yeah.

[00:14:14] Alessandro Frosali: South African Australian men on the other side of the world, and he's feeling like he's really hurt and, and 

[00:14:20] Jay Tibbs: Mm. 

[00:14:20] Alessandro Frosali: So right now, or, or doesn't even know that he's hiding from his emotions and he's got all this pent up feeling like, what the fuck does he actually do? Actionably here?

[00:14:28] Jay Tibbs: this might seem vague, but let yourself feel it. You know, if you're pent up and you've got all these feelings, just what happens if you stop fucking trying to stop feeling them. You know, like we're so good at trying to stop the feeling I'm gonna, you know, do this, do that. What if you just stop that and you just allowed yourself to feel it? Fucking cry, man. Let it out. You know? And then another thing is reach out to a brother, reach out to someone and tell 'em that you're hurting. You know? That is a great way. 'cause we're [00:15:00] not supposed to open up in isolation, you know, we're social beings. In order to open up having someone to witness, you actually let your nervous system know. Okay. Like, I'm not alone. And on a

[00:15:11] biological level, like if you're gonna break down and cry, the reason kids come to you to cry is 'cause when you're fully in that process, you, you are literally vulnerable. You know what I mean? You're not like in the external world looking around, a predator could come and get you.

[00:15:24] So having someone there to witness you lets your nervous system relax and drop and just, even if it's virtual, it still kind of ticks the same part of the brain. Just call

[00:15:35] someone, let 'em know you're hurting. Talk about it, practically. Talk about it. Talk to your wife. Let your fucking wife know that you're hurting. You know, she might be pushing you, pushing you, pushing you. And the reason she's probably pushing you is 'cause she actually wants you to crack open and she

[00:15:50] wants to see the real you, which is

[00:15:54] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:55] Jay Tibbs: and all. So if you even just let her know, let a friend know. Call a suicide [00:16:00] hotline, man, I'll So you can, being vulnerable.

[00:16:02] I did that. In that moment of just being fully down at the bottom. Actually, my wife is the one who said to me, you need to call someone, you know, and she kind of put an ultimatum down. She told me, Hey man, if you don't call someone right now, I'm leaving you. And you know, I don't know how serious she was.

[00:16:22] I'm, I think she was pretty serious. But it was serious enough for me to call and

[00:16:27] just be like, fuck, all right, I gotta do it.

[00:16:29] And 

[00:16:30] Alessandro Frosali: I mean, yeah,

[00:16:31] Jay Tibbs: it was helpful. So, you

[00:16:32] know there's those, yeah.

[00:16:34] Alessandro Frosali: You opened up a real, a few things on that and, there's a bunch of threads we could pull on, but wanna validate that, even, even talking about the. I'm talking about the, the wives aspect, you know, and, and, and sometimes wives feeling like they just keep piling more on.

[00:16:49] Jay Tibbs: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:50] Alessandro Frosali: interesting thing is like when you're hurting as a man, wife doesn't know that. 

[00:16:55] Jay Tibbs: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:56] Alessandro Frosali: like her perspective, she's seeing you, uh, [00:17:00] as a half present. Because half of your thoughts are trying so hard not to fall and not to slip, and the other half of your thoughts are trying to, you know, keep up with your tasks and the tasks are getting more and more difficult.

[00:17:13] The load is getting low, higher, and higher in your head, and she's got mental load from doing all the, 

[00:17:17] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:17:18] Alessandro Frosali: the excess leading at initiating, but you are not able to give that space because you are just so focused on trying to hold it all in, because if you don't, it'll, you'll explode. That is the process that's actually making you live a half life, half present life 

[00:17:33] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:17:33] Alessandro Frosali: shared it.

[00:17:34] And I 

[00:17:34] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:17:35] Alessandro Frosali: I think it really, it does require that I, I've, I've had experience with, um, I've had experience with, with, helping my brother when he was about a, um, commit suicide. And, 

[00:17:44] Jay Tibbs: Mm. 

[00:17:44] Alessandro Frosali: know that him seriously well, having me patch him up in a bathtub once, made him start that journey to, to realize that, because I think when there's this darkness inside you and it is seen.

[00:17:57] By somebody and then [00:18:00] that somebody reflects it and goes, how you feel. It suddenly doesn't feel so dark anymore. It's actually,

[00:18:07] Jay Tibbs: No.

[00:18:08] Alessandro Frosali: you find comradery in it. You find shared pain in it. 

[00:18:13] Jay Tibbs: It feels like a relief. 

[00:18:15] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's some of the, sometimes the best artwork out there is that, that, helps you share pain.

[00:18:24] Jay Tibbs: Absolutely, absolutely. The best poetry, the best songs. They're not

[00:18:28] the ones talking about how your B2B do everything is, and you know,

[00:18:32] some of them are beautiful, but the stuff that really strikes the soul, it's, it's alchemizing pain and suffering, you know?

[00:18:40] Yeah. There's a lot of power there. 

[00:18:41] Alessandro Frosali: your action. I would add that to your action list is alchemize your.

[00:18:45] Jay Tibbs: Mm. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:18:48] Alessandro Frosali: add that I always knew that when I was a, like when I was a musician, like that would be something that I always really loved was was turning it into song. But you can actually turn it into anything.

[00:18:57] Jay Tibbs: man. You can turn it, you can alchemize it by going to [00:19:00] the gym, you know?

[00:19:02] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, yeah, yeah. some of the 

[00:19:05] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:19:05] Alessandro Frosali: athletes in the world are really just, genuinely just getting their pains and struggles 

[00:19:10] Jay Tibbs: Man, listen to some of Mike Tyson talking, you know? .

[00:19:13] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. Yeah. I had, um, I had a Dr. Scott Brennan, I don't know if you know him. He, she lives close to you?

[00:19:19] Jay Tibbs: No, Dr.

[00:19:20] Scott Brennan? No.

[00:19:22] Alessandro Frosali: yeah. Um, so he, works actually with the Rites of Passage Institute,

[00:19:26] Jay Tibbs: Okay.

[00:19:27] Alessandro Frosali: and he's a Olympic medalist

[00:19:29] Jay Tibbs: All right.

[00:19:30] Alessandro Frosali: gold medalist for rowing. So, got the Olympic gold I think in Beijing, 

[00:19:34] Jay Tibbs: Wow. 

[00:19:35] Alessandro Frosali: told a story on, on the podcast about how like he, to go and get that Olympic gold medal came from his rowing mentor had died and he put his hand on his rowing mentor's chest at 11:00 AM in Tasmania.

[00:19:49] and just as he put it, like 10:59 AM he's like, I'm gonna go win that gold medal. And then the clock struck. 11, it went. Bang. And, and so all this pain that he 

[00:19:59] Jay Tibbs: Wow. 

[00:19:59] Alessandro Frosali: losing [00:20:00] his mentor, it alchemized into that moment and he pushed so hard, like almost to the point of breaking him just every single day 

[00:20:07] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:20:08] Alessandro Frosali: of this moment.

[00:20:09] And it got like, turned into something and it turned into something that's defined his life

[00:20:14] Jay Tibbs: Yeah, that's it. That's it. You know,

[00:20:17] there's, there's a, uh, there's a lot of power in your sadness and in your pain, and if you leverage it, it can be incredibly powerful. But if you just let it fester inside and try to hold it. It, it, it, you know, it's like, it's like having a, a extremely powerful working dog.

[00:20:34] You know? Let's say you've got a Belgian Malinois and you're trying to just keep it inside. It's gonna fuck your house

[00:20:39] up. You gotta let that thing out, you know? 

[00:20:42] Alessandro Frosali: Interesting. So this, dog, it can be used for good, this 

[00:20:47] Jay Tibbs: Yes, yes it can. Yeah. But it, it needs to be let out.

[00:20:52] Alessandro Frosali: Hmm. Okay. Okay. And can, can that be healthy?

[00:20:57] Jay Tibbs: Absolutely,

[00:20:58] absolutely. it can be [00:21:00] healthy. It can be healthy, as long as it's not destructive to other people in your life. You know, if you're talking about letting your pain out, that doesn't mean go and just, you know, abuse the people around you or project it. It just means expressing it so that can, is it healthy to cry in front of your woman and let her see that you're a human and let her feel. Your vulnerability that's very healthy. Is it healthy to go to your brother and let you know, let him know that you're hurting and let him hold and support you. That, that it forges relationships. It, it brings

[00:21:29] bonds closer together, so it's very healthy. Is it healthy to go win an Olympic Olympic gold? Pretty healthy, you know, to create art that moves people's souls. Absolutely. There's, there's many ways that expressing and allowing the suffering that you're experiencing, the pain that you've held back out can be healthy, but it can also be very unhealthy. You know, people can go and just be very destructive and damaging,

[00:21:55] but that's usually when they're 

[00:21:57] Alessandro Frosali: Huh?

[00:21:57] Jay Tibbs: temperance, you know?

[00:21:58] But usually what that [00:22:00] happens is when they just, as men, I think anger. It's a very easy, it's a, it's an emotion that is a coverup emotion for a lot of deeper pains and sadness and grief and stuff that is safe emotion for men, you know, because we're allowed to express it and it's kind of glorified in, in some ways.

[00:22:19] So a lot of the times, if a man is sad, if a man is grieving, if a man is, you know, feeling nostalgic or vulnerable or confused or scared. He'll just get angry. He'll express it as anger, you know? And that anger is just like a safe coverup for a deeper thing.

[00:22:39] Alessandro Frosali: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. How does one get past that?

[00:22:43] Jay Tibbs: Practice, you know, practice and inquiry. You know, when you find yourself angry, just ask what's underneath the anger? Is there a feeling that the anger is masking? Am I angry or am I [00:23:00] sad? Am I angry or am I in pain? You know, like just a bit of a bit of self-inquiry or you know, if you're holding a brother accountable, if you've got a friend. I know we were talking about the loneliness epidemic. Not enough men have this, but you know, if you're lucky to have a close friend, then if that close friend is expressing anger and you know, sometimes ask him what's underneath that? You know, like, Hey bro, I can see that you're angry about this, but like what's actually underneath it? And a lot of the

[00:23:27] times you'll realize this pain underneath it, 

[00:23:29] Alessandro Frosali: What about the, the inverse? You know, I, I do, I do have a few coaching clients that are like super rational, like 

[00:23:36] Jay Tibbs: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:37] Alessandro Frosali: they're, where they say that they don't even feel an emotion, 

[00:23:41] Jay Tibbs: I know. 

[00:23:42] Alessandro Frosali: trying to feel an emotion and you start saying, where is sit in the body? They go, they their mind if trying to think about 

[00:23:49] Jay Tibbs: Yeah, 

[00:23:50] Alessandro Frosali: it sits in the 

[00:23:50] Jay Tibbs: I know. 

[00:23:51] Alessandro Frosali: than feeling it how, like how, what is, how do you unlock emotion if you're someone like that?

[00:23:58] Jay Tibbs: Yeah, I mean I'm, as I'm sure [00:24:00] you're familiar, it's pretty hard to, to get past the hyper, mentally fixated man, you know, who's got zero practice at, in the embodied feeling of an emotion. I think that, you know, somatic practices, you know, whether it be some breath work or whether it be exercise or dance or something that literally gets the man into his body. You know, if he, it's one thing to think and it's another thing to just be like sweating while you're dancing and in your body, you just naturally, the center of gra, you know, gravity moves into the body and out of the head, and I think just practices that, nevermind about, let's locate the emotion, but just practice the experience of just getting out of your head.

[00:24:46] You know, whether that be through dance, through breath work, go get a massage. You know, just go make love, go do something that doesn't require your [00:25:00] analytical thinking and my encouragement to those guys. Hyper rational would be, that would be dance workout. A lot of the times they're not very embodied. I, I've experienced it. A lot of the times they, those types of men, they don't have a lot of experience with just getting into their body.

[00:25:19] So that would be the first step, you know, that's, that's the portal.

[00:25:22] Alessandro Frosali: And I would say that they're probably also quite, um, they avoid discomfort as well because, and they've, they've just lived a life and gotten through with just avoiding 

[00:25:31] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:25:32] Alessandro Frosali: that 

[00:25:33] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:25:33] Alessandro Frosali: to. and I think you sort of find if you end up in a coaching room with somebody, you could probably find that that way of living has its ceiling.

[00:25:40] Jay Tibbs: Oh yeah, it

[00:25:41] does. And they feel it. 

[00:25:43] Alessandro Frosali: they, well, yeah, they, they feel the ceiling, but they don't, they just believe that something else from the mind must be the answer.

[00:25:49] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. As

[00:25:50] who's it? Einstein said, you can't fix a problem with the same thinking that created it.

[00:25:55] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah.

[00:25:56] Jay Tibbs: Yeah.

[00:25:58] Alessandro Frosali: That's a great 

[00:25:58] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:25:59] Alessandro Frosali: Well done [00:26:00] Einstein.

[00:26:00] Jay Tibbs: Yeah,

[00:26:01] he had a few good ones. 

[00:26:02] Alessandro Frosali: he did. 

[00:26:03] Jay Tibbs: I wonder how much he felt.

[00:26:05] Alessandro Frosali: Oh, I think he felt a lot. I 

[00:26:07] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:26:07] Alessandro Frosali: a lot. I mean, I, I, I've read a lot about him in, I think it's Mastery by Robert Green, one of my favorite books. 

[00:26:14] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:26:15] Alessandro Frosali: he talks about Einstein and how Einstein was just so fixated on, on his, on specific problems.

[00:26:22] And, and he was not regarded as a, a genius at all for a very long time because he 

[00:26:26] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:26:26] Alessandro Frosali: do everything the way that other people would. And, and he actually found different ways of thinking. Gosh, we're going on a tangent here, but Einstein, 

[00:26:34] Jay Tibbs: to say, 

[00:26:35] Alessandro Frosali: oh, I love it. Uh, I love it. I don't know if you love it, but it's my podcast.

[00:26:40] Jay Tibbs: uh, we, you lead the way my friend.

[00:26:42] Alessandro Frosali: I'll lead the way. I'll share this one thing 'cause I love it. Uh, essentially Einstein. Believed that even the human language was a little bit too limited for some of the ways that he was thinking. And so he would think of the fields in pictures and images because he could get more information out that [00:27:00] way.

[00:27:00] And I think actually, oh, here we go. Here. I tie it back in. I feel as if, I feel as if sometimes we're also limited in language too, within the emotions.

[00:27:11] Jay Tibbs: Absolutely.

[00:27:12] Alessandro Frosali: Because you know, there's loads of times where your wife might just be like, what's wrong? You look angry and you're like, I'm not angry. 

[00:27:19] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:27:20] Alessandro Frosali: it in that way, but there is another thing going on.

[00:27:23] Jay Tibbs: There is another thing. And to, to, to touch on that. I think this is good. So my wife actually told me this word, Alexia. Do you know what that is? And I'm pretty sure it's

[00:27:31] Alexia. 

[00:27:31] Alessandro Frosali: had a whole podcast on Alexa Theia.

[00:27:33] Jay Tibbs: Okay. So you do,

[00:27:35] you know, I think and do you know of a man named Jason Wilson?

[00:27:41] Alessandro Frosali: Nope. That I do not, 

[00:27:42] Jay Tibbs: he's a, he's a, he's a brilliant man, men's coach, speaker, you know, mentor. And, um, he said something really beautifully that I will, you know, use. He was talking about how as men, we don't possess the [00:28:00] vocabulary to describe emotions, you know, there. And he used the example of crayons in a box. You know, let's say there's 50 colors. Of different crayons to use. We only have five, you know, we know blue, green, red, yellow, and, you know, we don't know lime or indigo or turquoise. And so, you know, back to the angry thing, it's like I just know angry, I don't know, nostalgic or fearful or grieving or sad or, you know, all, all these other nuanced emotions that if you

[00:28:32] don't know the word for to the Alexia thing. You, you, you don't really know how to process it 'cause you don't even know. What, what to call it and when you don't know what to call it, it's just, you just, it, it's hard to make sense of it as language based beings.

[00:28:49] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah.

[00:28:49] Jay Tibbs: I thought it was really beautiful. He was talking about, you know, your woman, she's, she's wanting to speak to you and she wants you to draw lime and, and you just have yellow and green, and [00:29:00] you're like, I, I don't lie.

[00:29:01] Like, you know, I wanted to speak in turquoise and indigo, and you're like, blue, blue, you know, and it's. Back to that lack of practice as boys, when you shut off from going through the motion of consistently experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion without being shamed for it, you get to practice the nuances and the subtleties and you say, okay, this is what sad feels like.

[00:29:23] Okay, this is what nostalgia feels like. Okay, this is what melancholy feels like, and I'm allowed to feel these things, and I've gone through 'em enough times that I have a repertoire of feelings that I can. Experience and speak about and share that, you know, when you just get shut off and told to toughen up and you're only allowed to feel stoic. Stoic or angry or happy. It, it's pretty emotionally stunting.

[00:29:50] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:29:52] Jay Tibbs: Yeah.

[00:29:52] Alessandro Frosali: I think it's, I think that drawing and the crayon analogy, I mean, we're talking about a big, broader thing, even [00:30:00] more than emotions. we start going into, when we talk about that rational mind, we get very much into the ego basing. 

[00:30:06] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:30:06] Alessandro Frosali: And, when you listen to Alan Watts, oh God, I, I, there's this one recording of Alan Watts that I absolutely adore.

[00:30:15] And he talks about, if you were a, a, a painter and you could only see in five colors, you're essentially limited, like completely limited because those five colors are, you know, like you can't. Make everything from that. And if 

[00:30:33] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. 

[00:30:34] Alessandro Frosali: you only had, if you only could taste like three things you like, essentially you can't really taste, I'm really butchering this, but essentially it's this idea because we label things and we're so clear on our labeling.

[00:30:45] Like, I, I really want to double down on that idea, that emotion is that spectrum and, and the word anger doesn't really cover it. The word mourning doesn't cover it. Like, for example, there's a feeling that I feel sometimes, which is this. Which is a [00:31:00] weird feeling for me, and, and there's no word I can have for it.

[00:31:02] He's like a missing of my dad, but also grateful for his passing because had he not passed, I wouldn't have become the man I am today. But 

[00:31:09] Jay Tibbs: Hmm 

[00:31:10] Alessandro Frosali: miss him because I want to tell him what kind of man I am today. 

[00:31:12] Jay Tibbs: Hmm.

[00:31:13] Yeah. 

[00:31:14] Alessandro Frosali: gratitude 

[00:31:15] Jay Tibbs: name for that? 

[00:31:16] Alessandro Frosali: What the fuck is the name for that

[00:31:18] Jay Tibbs: Hmm.

[00:31:19] Alessandro Frosali: together?

[00:31:19] And, and if I feel in that kind of weird sort of space, like then my wife says, what's wrong? And. I, if I, and you know, like most men know this, if you don't answer the what's wrong question correctly, then, you know, sometimes it can lead to World War II because essentially you've, you might be lying or pushing it away or, or something like that.

[00:31:43] And I think I just really push for the words. I don't know.

[00:31:48] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:31:49] Alessandro Frosali: I don't know. I'm figuring it out, 

[00:31:51] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:31:52] Alessandro Frosali: not, not denying it, but it's, I don't 

[00:31:55] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. Or what you just said before was a pretty good description, [00:32:00] you know?

[00:32:00] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah, it feels a little bit like this and a little bit like this. Don't have a word for it, but 

[00:32:05] Jay Tibbs: No, Yeah.

[00:32:06] yeah, yeah. And I think also just not being ashamed to not know, you know, I think that a huge part as well, when it comes to this realm is. A lot of men have been conditioned to tie their worth with their competence. You know, this, this performance piece. And so when you, you have no idea. You feel ashamed to say, I have no idea.

[00:32:32] You know, we, we, we don't like the idea of having no idea,

[00:32:36] Alessandro Frosali: No 

[00:32:37] Jay Tibbs: you know? And so rather than just saying like, I have no idea and let's explore, and for me personally, that that's been the case many times where I just, I didn't know what I was feeling and my wife was like, what's wrong? And I didn't even know something was wrong.

[00:32:51] You know? I'm sure

[00:32:51] you, I'm sure. Almost every man who's in a relationship with a woman has had the experience of her picking up on your emotional state before you even [00:33:00] did. And you know, being like, Hey, something's off. And you're like, no, I'm fine. You know, she's like, nah, something's off. And I think that allowing your woman to be your guide in that realm, because truthfully, for the majority of men in relationships with women, women will be the emotionally superior in the sense of like. More practiced, more experienced in navigating this realm, allowing your woman to be your guide. And if you drop shame and you say, I have no idea, and you display a vulnerability of like, but I would love your help trying to figure it out, like you have an incredible ally. That can assist you in uncovering the subtle layers of your emotional world if you allow her to, and you don't resist her emotions and you don't label that whole spectrum of existence as like irrational and lesser than. Man, I've had incredible uncoverings spearheaded by my wife that have just been [00:34:00] so rich for me and that have added such richness in my life that I've been able to then share with my father and, and members of my family, you know, that I wouldn't have had, had I not allowed her to guide me in uncovering what actually is there.

[00:34:12] When she asked me what's wrong and I was like, nah, I'm good. Nothing. Or I don't know, 

[00:34:17] Alessandro Frosali: there's real power to not give a block off answer.

[00:34:21] Jay Tibbs: Yeah, there's real power to not knowing, because when you admit that, then you open yourself to, to learning, you know? But if you just shut off,

[00:34:28] Alessandro Frosali: Hmm.

[00:34:29] Jay Tibbs: then you're, you're closing that door to discovery.

[00:34:31] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. Because then also even when you shut off, like then you might get into a fight about your own emotions, which 

[00:34:37] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:34:38] Alessandro Frosali: annoyed because you're 

[00:34:39] Jay Tibbs: Oh man, now I gotta be fighting you.

[00:34:43] Alessandro Frosali: now I've gotta be fighting you and this 

[00:34:45] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. And now I feel these Vietnam feeling even more feelings. And now And now you're pissed off.

[00:34:51] Alessandro Frosali: and I, and I don't know what piss, ah, yeah. I dunno what 

[00:34:53] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:34:54] Alessandro Frosali: like.

[00:34:54] Jay Tibbs: Yeah.

[00:34:55] Alessandro Frosali: There was, there was a moment which was quite vulnerable that you shed on, on this, 

[00:34:59] Jay Tibbs: Hmm. [00:35:00] 

[00:35:00] Alessandro Frosali: mentioned up ending up on a suicide hotline.

[00:35:01] Jay Tibbs: Hmm.

[00:35:02] Alessandro Frosali: Do you mind, um, if it's okay, like 

[00:35:05] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:35:06] Alessandro Frosali: led you up to that moment? 

[00:35:07] Jay Tibbs: Well, I, um. I had, we had our first child, a beautiful girl, and um, I was confronted with some feelings that I really was surprised by. I found it very triggering when she would have big cries that I couldn't soothe. You know, which all babies do. You know, babies cry. There's moments where you, you know, they cry 'cause they're growing or 'cause they're frustrated because they're learning how to crawl and they can't do yet, or they're cold or they're, you know, babies cry and, you know, they always cry for a reason, whether we understand it or not.

[00:35:41] But I found it very triggering when she would cry, you know, putting her to bed and she's crying, just releasing the stress of the day. That I would get, like I would get, I would get triggered. I would get frustrated, you know? And I would have moments where I would feel frustrated and I would be like energetically frustrated [00:36:00] at my innocent baby girl, you know? And then I would just feel so horrible that I felt frustrated. 'cause I just, they're so sensitive. I was like, I know she can pick up on my vibe, you know? And then she's experiencing frustration coming from me. She's an innocent child. I just felt so horrible. But just, man, these feelings would come up. And then I would tell myself, look. Babies cry. It's okay. You know what I mean? Like there's nothing wrong. You can't get frustrated, and then I would get frustrated. So it was just this real trigger for me that actually was tying into something in my childhood where my sister was incredibly sick and it was a lot of intense stimulus and a lot of screaming and crying that just went on for years. And, um. That I couldn't escape and I couldn't do anything about. And when my daughter was crying and I couldn't stop her from crying, it really like brought up like my biggest, my biggest trigger from [00:37:00] moments where I felt unable to help someone that I really loved who was suffering a lot. And then it spiraled into guilt of me feeling frustrated at my daughter and it just brought up all sorts of shit that. I felt incredibly trapped in. Not to mention that when you become a father, your testosterone drops like, you know, up to 25, a huge testosterone drop, which affects your mood. I didn't know this. My hormones were all different. There's, and becoming a father is this huge. Identity shattering initiation that alters your mind completely.

[00:37:37] I didn't have anyone to talk to. I was one of the first in my friends groups to become a father, so it was a cocktail of like real deep biggest trauma from childhood triggers coming up, testosterone tanked, identity shift,

[00:37:50] and it just all. 

[00:37:53] Alessandro Frosali: tanking. That's a thing.

[00:37:54] Jay Tibbs: Yeah, it's a thing, man. And, and be, you're on the journey of having kids know this.

[00:37:58] And actually with [00:38:00] a friend of mine, we ran a, a, a circle for new and expecting fathers, and one of the speakers who was one of our guest speakers came and talked about this, of how your testosterone plummets when you become a father. Up to 25%, 30% drop in your testosterone. And the testosterone is the hormone responsible for you.

[00:38:16] Alessandro Frosali: Feeling a vigor, feeling like you can handle life, going and getting it, and you just, you tank. And, Why.

[00:38:24] Jay Tibbs: Well, there's a few different theories for it, right? One of them is that testosterone makes you go out and achieve and conquer, if you will, and that when you have a child, nature downregulates that so that you don't go out and achieve and conquer and you stay and you nurture and you take care of your child.

[00:38:39] Also soothing and nurturing and holding a baby. It's just raises your estrogen levels. So you know, there's a few different biological reasons and theories. No one knows exactly why the body does what it does, but. Without a doubt. If you, you know, look, if you have a kid and you never see the kid, your testosterone levels will stay the same. [00:39:00] But there's a book called

[00:39:02] like, 

[00:39:02] Alessandro Frosali: Elon's testosterone has stayed the same for a very long time.

[00:39:05] Jay Tibbs: yes, for sure. Simply

[00:39:07] Getting a woman pregnant And her giving

[00:39:09] birth is not enough of the testosterone, but

[00:39:10] if you are an involved father, your testosterone will go down and it will never return to pre childhood levels.

[00:39:16] I know, you know, and, and look, you know this, and so you can do things to counteract it, like lift heavy weights, spend time with other men, do man shit that helps counterbalance that testosterone drop.

[00:39:28] But I had no idea. You know? So just that alone can

[00:39:31] completely alter your mental state. If I

[00:39:34] went to a woman and I gave her a testosterone shot that made her testosterone go up by 30%, like she would be wigging out, it would be a completely different emotional experience for her. So that's huge. To tie it back to what led me there, the combination of all these things had me feeling guilty, had me feeling triggered, had me feeling out of whack, had my, you know, and quite frankly, also, I wasn't stepping up man. [00:40:00] I was smoking a lot of weed to cope, which made everything worse, made my wife lose tr trust and attraction and you know, she just. Just like upon smoking, putting more pressure on her emotionally than I was relieving her at the time where I was supposed to be stepping up and helping her as she's just pouring everything into our newborn. So I just felt like a complete failure. I felt like shit, and it just all came to an emotional head one night where we got into a big argument. She was sick and tired of it. I felt so much shame. I felt so much. Like a, oh, here I am saying anger. But really what it was was pain. And you know, I was in pain, I was in shame, I just, you know, I went for a drive.

[00:40:46] I just stormed out the house. I went for a drive and I was just driving really, really fast. And I just had that thought of like, man, I just want to crash this

[00:40:53] car right now and be done with it. And then I ca I didn't obviously, and I came back. And [00:41:00] just that thought and that moment of being in the car and driving really fast scared me.

[00:41:06] And I came back and I just broke the fuck down, man. I was like weeping a complete mess. And my wife was just like, dude, you need to call someone. You know you need to call someone right now, otherwise I'm out. And I called someone. It was incredibly helpful. Nothing really followed through from that call, but just the act of admitting and calling. And funny enough, my wife only maybe six months ago from today, told me that that was the moment, that night was the moment that she relaxed and trusted that she was gonna be able to get her emotional needs met in this relationship because she saw that I had finally fully. Excavated my own shit and that she knew that now I would be more emotionally available for her 'cause I had fully gone there. [00:42:00] You know? So like she said that to me. Yeah, maybe not even six months ago I was, that hit me, man. I was like, fuck. That was the moment where you trusted and you knew for sure you were gonna get your emotional needs met at my lowest moment, you know? And so when we talk about the power in. Going there, you know? Yeah, that was a good illustration of it.

[00:42:24] Alessandro Frosali: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. What, what do you hope would take away from this convers? 

[00:42:30] Jay Tibbs: I hope men will take away from this conversation that firstly, it's not their fault that they have been emotionally disconnected. You know, we didn't go deep into the conditioning, but on a societal level, on a cultural level, on an individual level, there are so many layers that, young, innocent boys come into that. Cause them to be emotionally handicapped. it's not their fault. Like I said, my little boy, he's got no qualms expressing sadness. He's got no qualms expressing all facets of [00:43:00] emotion, and he won't unless he gets told not to. So it's not your fault, you know, most men have heard from their woman, oh, you're emotionally unavailable, feels like you don't care.

[00:43:10] Like, oh, I don't feel your presence. And it's like. Just releasing the guilt and releasing the shame of feeling like there's something wrong with you and that you've done something wrong or you're not adequate. You're perfectly adequate. You were just conditioned out of your own emotional intelligence, and I hope they will take away that there is immense power in allowing yourself to stumble back into that emotional intelligence.

[00:43:31] And I say stumble back in 'cause it's not gonna be SWA and smooth and you're just gonna figure out the James Bond way to just like open up. It's messy. It feels like you don't know what you're. It's scary, it feels like it feels wrong sometimes you're gonna come up against that feeling of like, ah, this is not what a man should be doing.

[00:43:46] My woman's gonna lose respect for me. Like I'm not gonna be a respectable man. But I hope they take away from this, that their greatest power lies on the other side of them fully meeting themselves emotionally and shutting the fuck up and listening

[00:43:58] to their own hearts. 

[00:43:59] Alessandro Frosali: [00:44:00] And going the place they don't want to go.

[00:44:02] Jay Tibbs: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:03] Alessandro Frosali: It's often 

[00:44:04] Jay Tibbs: that's where the gold is.

[00:44:05] Alessandro Frosali: That's where the gold is. It's 

[00:44:07] Jay Tibbs: Man, the, 

[00:44:07] Alessandro Frosali: a man goes, I'm stuck. It's like, what are you avoiding? Not that It's like, yeah, that,

[00:44:14] Jay Tibbs: yeah, you want that big mountain of gold? Well, then you gotta fight the dragon that's guarding it, right?

[00:44:20] Alessandro Frosali: yeah. 

[00:44:21] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:44:22] Alessandro Frosali: dragon's the, literally the one place that you keep avoiding.

[00:44:25] Jay Tibbs: Yeah.

[00:44:25] Alessandro Frosali: beautiful. Really beautiful. So 

[00:44:27] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. 

[00:44:28] Alessandro Frosali: connect with your work or learn about what you're saying? 

[00:44:31] Jay Tibbs: I'm, I'm active on Instagram. you know, at Mr. J Tibs, I don't know if you can

[00:44:36] pop that.

[00:44:37] in the show notes or

[00:44:38] pop that on the, you know, you know,

[00:44:39] you do this, the podcast thing. but yeah, that, that's where they can find me. 

[00:44:43] Alessandro Frosali: What are you working on at the moment? What's 

[00:44:45] Jay Tibbs: I'm working 

[00:44:45] Alessandro Frosali: big in life for you?

[00:44:46] Jay Tibbs: on, yeah. Well, speaking of life for me right now is, um, I've got two guides that I've released.

[00:44:50] One guide called The Art of Meeting a Woman Emotionally that. Delves exactly into, into this. It's

[00:44:57] like 104 pages, you know, that's a good resource [00:45:00] for men. And then, uh, another guide for women called The Art of Unlocking Your Man. Because I think that, yeah, there is a lot that women can do to facilitate the thing that they want from their men.

[00:45:12] And there's unfortunately a lot that they do that accidentally gets 'em the opposite result and ends up shutting their men down more, you know? And so just a guy that gives him a bit of. Understanding perspective on a, just, you know, what's going on for their man and gives them, you know, something that will hopefully facilitate a bit of compassion and patience in understanding that they're not dealing with someone who's entirely emotionally whole and that, you know, there's some catching up to do.

[00:45:39] So yeah, those two things I'm working on. And then a, a longer, a longer course that I'll be putting together with, with a bit of cameo from my wife, four couples as a bit of a relationship revival. Roadmap.

[00:45:51] Alessandro Frosali: Beautiful. 

[00:45:52] Jay Tibbs: Yeah. so much for coming on today.

[00:45:54] Man, thank you so much for having me.

[00:45:56] I really appreciate you. I appreciate your work and it's been inspiring to see all the [00:46:00] things that you're speaking about and just the work you're putting out there and helping men show up and lead and their marriage and Yeah. You're a, you're a star, bro.

[00:46:09] Alessandro Frosali: Appreciate it, man.

[00:46:10] That's the episode. That's all I got for you today. I just want you to remember you're not alone in this. Make sure you subscribe to stay connected, of course, and comment your win. You know? 'cause every time a man sees other men winning, they don't feel alone anymore, and I love that tools are in the show notes, starting with the better husband in two minute emails.

[00:46:27] Let's build this together. I'll see you next week.