STFUAL - From Boy to Man to Better Husband

Why Your Wife Is Done Managing You, Take Ownership Before She Walks Out - Mental Load Coach Zach Watson | EP 28

• Alessandro Frosali - Men's Coach • Season 2 • Episode 28

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Ever wonder why your wife gets pissed when you ask "What can I do to help?"

Today Alessandro sits with Zach Watson, mental load coach to translate what your wife has been trying to tell you for years. He unpacks the three levels of labor (physical, mental, and emotional) and why most men only see one of them. 

You might be thinking you are doing your part when you ask "What can I do to help?" or "Just make me a list." But here's the thing: you can't help someone who already owns the whole damn operation. 

You're not an employee in your own home. You're supposed to be a co-owner.They break down why that mindset is keeping you stuck in boy behavior and wrecking your marriage, even when you think you're trying.

Chapters:
03:18 – Naming The Invisible Work That’s Crushing Couples
04:33 – Why Men Only Wake Up When It’s Almost Too Late
06:50 – Renovations, Resentment, and A Marriage On the Rocks
09:28 – The Three Layers of Labor Men Keep Missing
12:30 – Lunchboxes, Monster Toast, And Everyday Mental Load
17:19 – The “Boring Meeting” That Quietly Saves Your Relationship

From his own separation story to helping hundreds of couples through the Fair Play method, Zach knows exactly where men get stuck and how to get unstuck.

You'll learn how to shift from "just tell me what to do" to actually leading in your home. Zach breaks down the difference between fear-based "doing better" and real ownership, why your wife is carrying invisible weight you can't see, and a simple framework for weekly meetings that actually prevent fights instead of starting them.

Stay until the end to learn the one action that immediately reduces mental load and proves you're thinking like a teammate, not waiting for instructions like a child.

Listen and learn how to stop helping out and start owning your half.

Free Skool Mental Load Basics: Here

Zach Watson: https://www.instagram.com/zachmentalloadcoach

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Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy. Always seek qualified guidance for your personal situation.

Views shared by Alessandro Frosali and his guests reflect their lived experiences and opinions. Every listener’s journey is unique, and no therapeutic relationship is created.

[00:00:00] Alessandro Frosali: welcome, Zach. How you doing?

[00:00:01] Zach Watson: I am, I'm feeling good. Alessandra got a haircut today, which I'm ashamed that my wife reminded me and requested me get multiple times. but then just had a great coaching call where was helping some people implement the fair play method.

[00:00:15] Alessandro Frosali: Isn't it fantastic how our wives are good ones that help us, uh, you know, understand things, know things, and they're always on top of things. Which reminds me of my first question here. Mental load. when did you first realize mental load was real [00:00:30] in, uh, in your relationship and in the world? Uh, what was it?

[00:00:33] Zach Watson: think I, it was funny recently, I was going into an old journal and I found the word mental load in a journal entry in 2020. So I know in general that it was part of vocabulary existed for me, but I don't think I understood the level of my partner's ownership of it until I read the book Fair Play by Eve Rodsky.

[00:00:54] Zach Watson: and I think ever since then, you know, I've, I've made over 300 plus [00:01:00] videos specifically about mental load and that's why people are aware of my existence on Instagram these days.

[00:01:06] Alessandro Frosali: So why did that book make such like a impact on you?

[00:01:10] Zach Watson: I think I'm embarrassed to say that it was. It, it was another person saying it. I think Alyssa had had this conversation with me many times. There was something, probably a mixture of the way that it was articulated, but also just hearing it from another person. I'll also say that, uh, you know, I, I had been talking about fatherhood on TikTok [00:01:30] for about a year, and I had asked my audience like, what, what book should I read next?

[00:01:34] Zach Watson: And a multiple of them said Fair play. so I think I also probably felt a little bit of an extra drive to. receive it and like nourish it because it was coming from an audience that I had really grown fond of, and I think they'd grown really fond of me. So some of those external forces I think definitely helped and I'm, I'm sad that it took that, but I think it was probably [00:02:00] hearing it from another person.

[00:02:01] Alessandro Frosali: Okay, so then, you know, let's, let's get into the meat and potatoes. So for somebody that doesn't know what's, uh, what's the difference between helping out and truly owning your part of the home or your family life?

[00:02:13] Zach Watson: I think the difference between those two things is the context that you see. The contribution that you have to your home. So the couple I was just on a call with, we were talking about the minimum standard of care of taking out trash. Uh, and almost every single couple that I [00:02:30] do the fair play method with, I swear trash and dishes are like the very first two things we almost always end up talking about.

[00:02:37] Zach Watson: and. I think there's a lot of men out there like, yeah, I'll help you with doing the trash, or I'll help you with cleaning something. But you can't help somebody that doesn't own something fully or isn't a co-equal contributor. So you wouldn't say from one CEO to, or a founder and another co-founder, you wouldn't say, oh, I'll help you with the [00:03:00] business.

[00:03:00] Zach Watson: You would say, you would phrase it differently. So I think that context of, I'm a co-owner with you. that is what kind of evaporates some of that word help.

[00:03:09] Alessandro Frosali: for somebody who still doesn't understand it, like what's, what, what are the core principles here that we're dealing with? Is, is it, are we, are we talking shared life? What are we, what are we talking about here?

[00:03:18] Zach Watson: I think a huge part of why people come to me for coaching is because they, they hear and see me talk about domestic labor and a lot of invisible labor. Within the [00:03:30] home, whether it be childcare, whether it's managing, doing the dishes, doing the trash, cleaning the floors, refilling the soap, refilling the toothbrushes, and the toilet paper.

[00:03:41] Zach Watson: a lot of those things that think are seen or sort of accidentally contextualized as like feminized tasks, things that women own. Um, and so it's reevaluating what is. What is under each of the people's ownership? I'm not sure if I answered your question there [00:04:00] actually.

[00:04:00] Alessandro Frosali: Essentially, no matter how many, which ways we say it, it's probably a really good thing to, to rationalize, to say in many different ways because it's about a, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's about a, a mindset shift. It's about understanding this differently, and we don't do that without using words.

[00:04:17] Alessandro Frosali: And so we have to actually have words to get there. Right. and why do you think, with that being said, why do you think this is something that like so many men only wake up to after conflict or separation [00:04:30] or after? Yeah. These huge moments. Why is that happening?

[00:04:33] Zach Watson: I mean, I, I hate to say it, I think it's kind of the human condition is we don't, we don't take things, uh, make things really important until they're urgent. I think it's the. some present though, maybe the Eisenhower matrix of like, uh, some things are high urgency, but they're like low impact, low importance.

[00:04:51] Zach Watson: Some things are high importance, but they're super low urgency. Like having life insurance, like having a, you know, a trust or a, your will set [00:05:00] up, like pretty important. 'cause when that moment hits, when you need that, it's a pain in the butt to not have those things. But most people aren't thinking about death, so it's not really urgent.

[00:05:11] Zach Watson: and so I think when, when our partners are complaining to us, oftentimes it feels like it's, it's has some urgency from our partner, but we're not seeing the urgency 'cause it doesn't necessarily feel important 'cause there's so many other. Cultural factors that tell us that [00:05:30] this is not a man's job, it's not my job.

[00:05:32] Zach Watson: And it's, you know, my wife's just complaining. And I think, it, we also get kind of stuck in the do better loop, which is we have a not fun conversation. There's a little bit of an argument, and then we're like, no, no, no, don't worry, I'll do better. And so we do do better for a little bit of time. Maybe it's three days, maybe it's three months, but.

[00:05:52] Zach Watson: As we are doing better, it's only based on fear. It's not based on ownership. And so as we're in a fear [00:06:00] state, we are doing the work, but then the fear starts to wear off. And at some point, uh, in that stage, we're not really taking. Feedback. So we're still kind of defensive and so at some point that resentment builds back up.

[00:06:14] Zach Watson: And once you've gone through that, do better loop. As painful as it can be, sometimes it takes a certain amount of those, sometimes for a lot of women to be like, you know what, I'm actually done. I'm, I can't do this anymore. And that's, I think when [00:06:30] sometimes. It starts to shift more towards ownership and less of like, I'm just feeling fear of our next fight and recognizing there needs to be an entire contextual change.

[00:06:39] Alessandro Frosali: I know for me, you know, it was a, it was a difficult thing to understand. Um, and you know, I've got my story about that, but I'd love to hear your story. Like how, how did this show up in your life?

[00:06:50] Zach Watson: I think for. For us, it really hit heart. So we were separated back in 2018, uh, in our third year of marriage. we bought a [00:07:00] three family house, in Northeast America and living in there, we had, we just bought it. we knew we wanted to make a bunch of renovations to it. Alyssa definitely had some things that she wanted that were a little bit more specific than what I wanted.

[00:07:15] Zach Watson: I would've been probably pretty happy with it just as it is and getting renters in there. She had a hard time I think. It, it wasn't all that nice of a place and she didn't want to rent a crappy place to people and have it be a lower [00:07:30] amount. but more so 'cause like she feels shame in renting a shabby place.

[00:07:35] Zach Watson: So we decided to do a ton of renovations. We got a stop work sign from our contract from the, uh, town saying like, Hey, you need a permit for this stuff? And, you know, about six months in, we had done a lot of work. We're in the middle of it. ended up being only about a third of the ride of not getting any renters in.

[00:07:57] Zach Watson: Um, so it was starting to get a little bit pretty [00:08:00] financially uncomfortable. Um, but Alyssa was owning all of the ownership of the thing, so she'd be like, Hey, can you go get some quotes for an electrician to do this thing? And she'd have to keep following up with me. Hey, did you call the contractor? Did you follow up with them?

[00:08:15] Zach Watson: What's the deal with that? She kept owning all these things and I was just becoming an employee within all the things that needed to happen in our home. And so, you know, it reached to a breaking point where she was like, I can't do [00:08:30] this. Like, I don't, like, I'm struggling to even love you right now. and I think that we, we got separated for about three months and.

[00:08:38] Zach Watson: you know, gratefully I think for both of us is, that we, we got back together and kind of realized how much we missed each other. and I think I, she still owned significantly more of it even after that. And I think it wasn't until we had a 2-year-old, about five years later, that, and I started reading Fair Play as I really started to understand.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Zach Watson: How to deal with these things, how to talk about them and how, what unlearning of our current culture I needed to do.

[00:09:07] Alessandro Frosali: I know that you talk about when, when we, when we had a little, pre-conversation a couple of weeks ago, you, you were talking about a concept which I would love for you to share for my audience. Simply like the different levels of, uh, labor. So, you know, I think a lot of men. You know, they jump into something and they go, yeah, but I'm doing the dishes, I'm taking the kids out.

[00:09:28] Alessandro Frosali: I'm, uh, [00:09:30] I'm, you know, um, I'm doing the renovation on the house every six months when I'm told to, uh, what more does she want? Right. I'd love to, what's going on here and what are the, these different levels of, uh, labor Up.

[00:09:43] Zach Watson: So I'm gonna actually offer an example that, we might see more in like a corporate setting because I think it will resonate more with, with the men, which is who you know. I'm sure there's a probably more women listening to this, possibly yet. I'm not sure what your demographics are,

[00:09:58] Alessandro Frosali: Uh, my demographics are mostly men on [00:10:00] the podcast

[00:10:00] Zach Watson: oh, fantastic.

[00:10:01] Zach Watson: Alright.

[00:10:02] Alessandro Frosali: men. Thank you for joining. Go send this to another man, by the way,

[00:10:07] Zach Watson: and I, and I, I'm, I'm so used to, I have a 91% woman audience. 'cause I think I, I speak their language more so, and so trying to bridge the gap, so, I'm gonna take a, a kind of a simple example of filling out a timecard. So I was in sales for a couple years while I was doing that, even though I was salaried, I had to fill out a timecard every week.

[00:10:28] Zach Watson: Um, so there's the [00:10:30] physical aspect of it, which is literally clicking and typing. You could probably more call that like clerical labor. some people there's a physical slip you have to do, but it's the little clicking button that's the physical labor associated with. Filling out a time card. then there's, the mental aspect of it is, I gotta do it every Friday.

[00:10:49] Zach Watson: Usually by 5:00 PM is pretty ideal. It doesn't really matter what time it is, but having a calendar reminder to physically do it, probably with the links so I don't have to click any [00:11:00] extra links. Remembering, Hey, did I, did I take any time? Did I take any sick leave? Did I take any, you know, bereavement leave or anything?

[00:11:07] Zach Watson: And remembering what to specifically put into the timecard. So there's the, the thinking aspect of it, and even the forethought to put a calendar event or an alarm in your phone to remember to do it. That's cognitive labor. And then there's the emotional labor aspect of it. So there were a handful of times when I was in sales and I would get a slack message from my [00:11:30] manager on Monday morning, be like, Zach, do you want to get paid?

[00:11:33] Zach Watson: Like you forgot your time card again. and so one, there's like, he clearly had some pout. He, he created like a little bit of a joke to try to soften the blo 'cause he's annoyed that he doesn't wanna have to come after me for this. Probably the first time it was. It was fine, but on a rep repeat basis, um, there's more emotion to it.

[00:11:52] Zach Watson: and furthermore, I think most, most employees aren't thinking about the emotional piece of it underneath, which is that [00:12:00] if I don't put in my, my timecard, someone else on the back end doesn't get the information correct, and then I don't get paid. So it kind of sits in the background of my mind. But our manager like.

[00:12:14] Zach Watson: They're, they're on the hook for it. So they end up doing more of the emotional labor of having to communicate it with you, maybe managing their own anger or embarrassment or, like sadness that they have to manage the cognitive labor for you. 'cause you're not the one doing it.

[00:12:29] Alessandro Frosali: Yeah. [00:12:30] So if we, if we then extend that to any situation with kids, I can imagine that gets a lot more complicated. you know, so like, let's say taking the kid to the, to school, you know, let's say that's the physical labor. So father takes the kids to school. He thinks, well, I'm taking the kids to school.

[00:12:44] Alessandro Frosali: But behind that, then we've got the, what was the mental labor was next.

[00:12:48] Zach Watson: Yep.

[00:12:49] Alessandro Frosali: And then you got the mental labor. It's like, well, okay, what time do we have to make sure we take the kids to school? Do they have their bags packed? Do they have food in their bags? Do they have, their report card or does their [00:13:00] homework ready?

[00:13:00] Alessandro Frosali: Do they have the clothes? Is the fact that the, the. It's winter out, do they have a jacket on them? Everything that goes into that. And then I can imagine the emotional labor of it would be if you aren't, doing any of that, the mother might feel guilty for not having done any of that. She might also feel annoyed at the husband for, for, not thinking about all, maybe she even feels shame for being so angry.

[00:13:24] Alessandro Frosali: There's, I think there's, there's a lot more there that goes that. That's a great, great analogy. I love that.

[00:13:28] Zach Watson: Yeah, and even [00:13:30] thinking more about like, um, you know, I know our child, like she's more likely to eat things if I can, you know, put some kind of specialness on it. Like, she's eaten toast for a lot of her breakfast in the past couple years. Recently she's been like, hell no, I don't want toast as a 4-year-old.

[00:13:48] Zach Watson: Um, and so one day right before Halloween, we called it Monster Toast. She's like, yeah, let's have that. And so now every day I gotta dress up the toast a little bit for her to eat it. So, you know, there's a little bit of emotional labor in thinking [00:14:00] about how do I make this a tiny bit special, that she's likely to eat it if I am noticing that she's not eating her food When I, you know, I do school lunches.

[00:14:09] Zach Watson: Making sure that I talk with her about it and say, Hey, why didn't you eat your, you know, your main course? Why didn't you eat your sandwich or your, your rice or your noodles today? and hearing, oh, well, you know, the other kid at school had this thing. And I was like, oh, would you like to have those too?

[00:14:23] Zach Watson: So. Having those co, that's both a cognitive conversation, but I think there's an emotional piece of it when you're thinking about, I [00:14:30] don't want my kid to be hungry. I also, if they're hangry when they come home, that's gonna impact me and I'm gonna have to do more emotionally for man, managing my own emotions while I'm helping to deal with them at the same time.

[00:14:42] Alessandro Frosali: I love that you actually unlocked a little level in my brain. I just realized like, um, a lot of men I know, they struggle with emotional labor. They struggle with emotional labor, and so they, they sort of avoid it, you know, like, for example, it's a lot harder to deal with, uh, the emotional [00:15:00] labor when, let's say that example of the, the school example with the, the, the lunchbox.

[00:15:05] Alessandro Frosali: ' cause then you're gonna have a conversation and that conversation might be difficult. It might be a fight. It might be, you know, annoyance, why are you telling me what to do with my food? You know, maybe they've, they've gone through and in, in their past. It's, it's always ended up being a big deal. And, you know, they want peace.

[00:15:19] Alessandro Frosali: And so instead of actually doing that emotional labor, they just go, I'll just leave it. And, and then they might default into passivity. And I think that's the scary part. That's the scary [00:15:30] part. Yeah.

[00:15:30] Zach Watson: Yeah, it's also interesting thing about something simple that, that I keep bringing up with a lot of my clients is. A lot of guys are doing emotional labor, even we'll say, take a simple one around their partner. Let's say, um, let's say they keep leaving a mug out, uh, and they, they keep forgetting to, or they just don't want to put it into the dishwasher and their partner's like, Hey, can you please put it into the dishwasher?

[00:15:54] Zach Watson: And so, the wife is doing emotional labor because. She doesn't want to deal with your defensiveness, [00:16:00] but she's probably trying to be palatable rather than letting out her rage that she's like, why am I telling you this for the 600th time? so that's one act of emotionally where a second one is the guy might feel hurt, like, Hey, I've been doing better.

[00:16:13] Zach Watson: I've been remembering it more often, but she caught me this one time. So he might be feeling anger, he might be feeling hurt. But he by by him not showing that and saying, oh yeah, my bad. I got this. By him not sharing the emotions that he's experiencing, he's doing emotional labor by not showing it, [00:16:30] not showing it on his face, not having it come out in his tone.

[00:16:32] Zach Watson: Or there's the other version of motion labor in that same moment is if he does come out and he says something vulnerable, which might be scary. Hey, I'm feeling hurt right now that I feel like nine times outta 10. I remember to do it, but you're calling me out on the one time. And that's a scary thing to say is like, I don't want to sound like I feel hurt about you calling me out on a mug that I put on the counter.

[00:16:55] Zach Watson: and similar for her, she is often. If she does let the [00:17:00] emotional, like, Hey, you know, I'm feeling kind of frustrated, you keep forgetting to put out, put the mug into the dishwasher. Like he might be like, what? Why are you getting upset over this? So it takes emotional labor even for her to share sometimes if it's an emotionally unsafe space.

[00:17:15] Zach Watson: So either way, emotional labor is getting done when there's conflict. The question is, do we do the stuff that shares the emotion that's happening for us, or that closes it off and hides it?

[00:17:26] Alessandro Frosali: Interesting. Really interesting. I love to, um, know how we [00:17:30] can actually go ahead and get couples ahead of tension and I hear that you might have, uh, something very boring as a way to solve it, right?

[00:17:38] Zach Watson: on the couple that I was just talking with where they were talking about trash and I said to, to the woman, I was like, okay, the challenge for you is gonna be not doing any of it for the next one, two, maybe three weeks. It's just like the trash might pile up a little bit. I want you to let it fall on him.

[00:17:54] Zach Watson: I know that you smell it more often and it's gonna impact you if he's not doing [00:18:00] it, but I'm really encouraging you to, to let go. And she's like, okay, I hear you Zach, like. When is enough is when does like enough become enough? Like when can I say something about it? And so I said, you bring that to your weekly boring meeting.

[00:18:15] Zach Watson: So one of the things that I coach everyone that I work with is to have a weekly meeting with their partner. Originally I had them kind of, I called them like business meetings with, with Alyssa. And as we were having them, I remember the first couple of times she's like, this is [00:18:30] so boring. Like, what the fuck?

[00:18:32] Zach Watson: Like, I don't, I don't wanna be here. and so I started calling it the boring meaning for fun and at some point it turned into an acronym. Um, and so it's baseline routines, operations repair. Initiative taking, nurturing and game planning. So in the weekly meeting, uh, this past week, we were brought up what is our current, our child's schedule.

[00:18:53] Zach Watson: 'cause nighttime was taking like 90 minutes and it just felt like too long. And so we [00:19:00] decided to just move back her, her. Sleep time a little bit later and things have been a little bit smoother the past week. I brought it back up this week and double checked, like, Hey, are we, I feel like we might actually wanna move this up.

[00:19:11] Zach Watson: 15 minutes. So we're bringing up, that's like a baseline routine piece. Um, one of the operations.

[00:19:19] Alessandro Frosali: we move, before we move on, I, I wanna go back, gimme the acronym again, so all the men can unhear it,

[00:19:25] Zach Watson: Yep. Baseline routines,

[00:19:28] Alessandro Frosali: routines. Okay.

[00:19:29] Zach Watson: [00:19:30] operations.

[00:19:30] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:31] Zach Watson: Relationship repair. So if you've had a not fun conversation coming back and apologizing when necessary, or talking about emotions.

[00:19:39] Alessandro Frosali: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:40] Zach Watson: taking. So, you know, we're, we're recording this a couple weeks before Thanksgiving, before holiday. so what trips are planned?

[00:19:48] Zach Watson: What things are happening? Can I come to this meeting either proactively saying, here are the things coming up on our calendar, here's what I've handled, or here are the things coming up on the calendar. Here are the things that I want to [00:20:00] handle this way. Does that sound good? nurturing. So if there are things like date nights that aren't getting planned, if there are things that.

[00:20:07] Zach Watson: feel like we want to be doing, but we're not nurturing each other enough. Then we can be talking about that there. Um, and then game planning. so, hey, I feel like this week's gonna be tough. You're on, you're gonna be, you, you're extra busy. You get that deadline coming up. So I'm happy to take on things, but I wanna game plan for when I'm stressed the hell out on Wednesday night after three days in a row of doing [00:20:30] 90% effort.

[00:20:30] Zach Watson: How can we game plan that?

[00:20:32] Alessandro Frosali: That's incredible. That's incredible. Men. Make sure you've heard that. So if every man listening to this took one action today or this week to reduce his partner's mental load or the shared mental load, what would it be?

[00:20:45] Zach Watson: My favorite one, and ironically I heard this recently, and I don't dunno if anyone's heard Dan Martel's buyer time back book, it says 1 3, 1 principle, reincarnated. I didn't hear it until I had already come up with this, but I call it a to-do or a ta-da. is instead of [00:21:00] going to your partner and saying, Hey, what do you want for dinner, go to your partner and say.

[00:21:04] Zach Watson: Here are the three options that I'm thinking for dinner. Here's like the default, so a triple option, default option. So going saying, Hey, I'm seeing we got some leftover chicken that I could throw into a stir fry. I could make that 'cause otherwise chicken's gonna go bad. Um, we do have some frozen pizzas.

[00:21:20] Zach Watson: We usually eat frozen pizzas tonight. We could do that. Um, or we could get takeout. I'm leaning much more towards the first one 'cause that chicken was so good. If you say nothing, I'm just gonna do the first [00:21:30] one. They don't have to think. if they don't want to, they can be like,and you know what to do 'cause you already promised what you would do.

[00:21:36] Zach Watson: Versus so many men, I am consistently hearing, Hey, can you make me a list? Hey, what do you want for dinner? I wanna do anything that you want, honey, and it sounds great and it requires their brain. So I think

[00:21:47] Alessandro Frosali: But they're terrified of their wife's emotions. That's why they're doing it. So stop being terrified of your wife and start fricking leading.

[00:21:54] Zach Watson: Hmm.

[00:21:55] Alessandro Frosali: That's initiating. I love that, Zach. That's really brilliant. How can, how can men really [00:22:00] make sure that they're, in your world and in your sphere.

[00:22:02] Zach Watson: Well, I would say the most active place, I am on, is on, Instagram, uh, Zach, mental load coach. I'm

[00:22:09] Alessandro Frosali: It'll be down at the bottom in the Yeah, we definitely,

[00:22:11] Zach Watson: if people want like a deeper dive on what I just shared there, uh, I'll leave, a link for the mental 1 0 1 Guide is kind of that guide along with a handful of other things you can implement tonight, and be taking more of the, the invisible labor off your partner.

[00:22:25] Alessandro Frosali: tell me about that mental load guide.

[00:22:26] Zach Watson: So I would say if there's any, for people [00:22:30] that just don't understand invisible labor, they kind of got a taste of it here. They're like, okay, I like kind of get it, but I want to see more. I want to better understand why my wife is struggling so hard with mental load, why she keeps bringing it up. This is going to outline what it is, what you're probably not doing,where the, what are some other things I can do along with, uh, giving her to-dos triple option default options.

[00:22:54] Zach Watson: In helping to improve that and for any women listening, uh, there's also fair play conversation starter at [00:23:00] the end for, I know there's a lot of women, that talk with the men in their lives and they get very defensive when they're asked to step up and do more of the domestic labor. Um, so there's a couple conversation starters for how to go about that in there too.

[00:23:11] Alessandro Frosali: Incredible. Thanks Zach.

[00:23:13] Zach Watson: Thank you, Alessandro. Appreciate it. 

[00:23:14] Alessandro Frosali: That's the episode. That's all I got for you today. I just want you to remember you're not alone in this. Make sure you subscribe to stay connected, of course, and comment your win. You know? 'cause every time a man sees other men winning, they don't feel alone anymore, and I love that tools are in the show notes, [00:23:30] starting with the better husband in two minute emails.

[00:23:31] Alessandro Frosali: Let's build this together. I'll see you next week.