Why Men Resist Changing Until She's Already Got One Foot Out the Door with Jasper Brown, Men's Coach | EP 36

What if the real you, the one you have been hiding, is exactly the man she has been waiting for?

Alessandro sits down with Jasper Brown, a men's coach who lost the woman he loved, spent six years in a tantra/yoga school he later describes as a cult, and only after walking away realized what being a man was going to require. 

He admits he was a boy in a man’s body: people-pleasing, missing red flags, letting his boundaries get compromised, and staying blind until the cost finally hit.

Chapters:
05:38 - Why Men Wait for Pain to Change
09:31 - From People Pleaser to Finding a Spine
12:24 - The Red Flags He Ignored for Six Years
17:12 - The Power of a Man’s No
20:00 - The Breakdown That Broke Him Open
24:52 - Dropping the Perfect Man Act
29:16 - Courage Over Avoidance
36:26 - Becoming the Father, Not the Boy

Most men are exhausted holding up a version of themselves that isn’t real. You built that guy to win her over. Then you spend years defending him. But she isn’t asking for the performance. 

She’s asking for the real you, the work-in-progresss you. The one who can name what he feels (even “I’m jealous”) and stay present enough to turn that truth into connection, not chaos.

They unpack why men wait for pain before they change, what integrity costs when you abandon it, and why emotional growth isn’t optional if you want trust, safety, and real intimacy.

Stay until the end because Alessandro shares something so personal it reframes the whole conversation, and you will not look at the word "Dad" the same way again.

Press play and learn what it really takes to stop performing and start showing the fuck up.

Connect with Jasper: https://awakenedevolution.org/

Jasper's Podcast: Awakened Evolution

Become a Better Husband in Just Two Minutes a Week for Free: HERE

Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy. Always seek qualified guidance for your personal situation.

Views shared by Alessandro Frosali and his guests reflect their lived experiences and opinions. Every listener’s journey is unique, and no therapeutic relationship is created.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jasper: it took her walking away for me to finally sort of get the message to see, ah, actually it's not her, it's me 

[00:00:06] Alessandro: my wife had her bags packed, ready to leave, I was crying on the floor thinking that this was over between the two of us.

[00:00:12] Alessandro: We as men need the stakes to become so high to actually take action. why do you think that? ---

[00:00:17] Jasper: men need the pain to be high enough for them to confront the things that they don't want to see.

[00:00:22] Jasper: you don't have to have it all figured out. You just need to feel confident that you're 

[00:00:26] Alessandro: And welcome to the podcast, Jasper. How you doing?

[00:00:29] Jasper: Good. [00:00:30] Alessandro, thank you for having me.

[00:00:31] Alessandro: you said to me in our little pre podcast conversation, you said, it took me losing her to start prioritizing the work.

[00:00:38] Alessandro: What do you mean by that? Or take us into that moment. Specifically, tell us where you were and tell us what made you realize that. And then eventually I wanna know what the work actually is. 

[00:00:46] Jasper: for me, this was, the culmination of a number of years of our relationship being dysfunctional, fighting a lot, getting back together, breaking up, just kind of chaos. And there was this sort of tension between what she was [00:01:00] asking for and I was unwilling to give, unwilling to sort of shift into the kind of behavior that would've allowed our relationship to actually be healthy. And the final straw was basically her walking away and the pain of that. the, the woman that I had been spent so long trying to get and convinced to be with me and to win over essentially. I'd been looking for that specific kind of relationship my whole life essentially. And it took her walking away for me to finally sort of get the [00:01:30] message to see, ah, actually it's not her, it's me.

[00:01:33] Alessandro: Okay.

[00:01:35] Jasper: that would, you know, very painful sort of confrontation with the fact that I was. Dismissing her feelings, not making her emotion feel emotionally safe. just not creating the kind of trust that the relationship needed in order to move forward and actually become something more profound and, more secure.

[00:01:53] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:01:53] Jasper: and that was the kind of the tipping point for me where I said, okay, now I've, I'm gonna look at the mirror [00:02:00] and see everything that she was pointing to that I couldn't previously see.

[00:02:03] Alessandro: That's really interesting. 'cause I, I feel like I have a very similar way in, you know, like I, I talk about it. Maybe I've, people have heard this already on the podcast, but I, I talk about, I remember there was one moment where. Like my wife had her bags packed, ready to leave the leave, and you know, I was crying on the floor thinking that this was over between the two of us.

[00:02:25] Alessandro: And it was only after the culmination of that conversation. There was a lot more that happened in [00:02:30] that conversation, but there was, that was only the, the only point where I was willing to actually look back at myself. When the stakes get so high, why do you think that? We as men need the stakes to become so high to actually take action.

[00:02:42] Alessandro: And do you think men can break that pattern and do it beforehand?

[00:02:47] Jasper: I'm sure you've seen this in coaching, I've seen it hundreds of times in coaching. that men often need that, the pain to be high enough for them to confront the things that they don't want [00:03:00] to see.

[00:03:00] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:03:02] Jasper: ' cause it's very painful to look at the, the things that we've done, the mistakes that we've made, the, all of the times that we've caused her pain. Perhaps the areas that we really need to work on and the ab, you know, the lack of skill development, the lack of empathy, the lack of awareness. And generally as men, we emerge into a culture that, doesn't really teach us to prioritize sensitivity, empathy, emotional intelligence. And, and that's what a relationship or the initiation of [00:03:30] relationship really gives us is, oh, actually.

[00:03:31] Jasper: If I want to be with a beautiful, sensitive, sexy woman, I need to actually develop the skillset that's gonna enable her to feel safe and to relax in my presence.

[00:03:41] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:03:42] Jasper: And I think we, we can definitely learn that before it gets too painful. It's just, most of the time I think men need to feel the pain in order to actually begin the uncomfortable work of looking in the mirror.

[00:03:53] Alessandro: Yeah. I mean, I, I actually think most, most of the men who are probably listening to this are already feeling that pain. They [00:04:00] wouldn't even listen to the podcast. We're blissfully unaware, floating along in live, thinking, my gosh, why is everyone else the problem? which is a very interesting, interesting thing.

[00:04:10] Alessandro: But That probably comes from, I mean, when I think about it, I, I, I think that fears feels society wise nowadays, it feels like we've got a lot of men that are very unaware, and I only know that from being that very unaware man myself. Do you, would you relate to that or, and, and do you have any idea why?

[00:04:29] Jasper: [00:04:30] Well, I mean. As I've sort of matured and sort of one of the, one of the most beautiful gifts of this whole, initiation for me through the fire of relationship, has been really starting to understand the feminine experience.

[00:04:46] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:04:47] Jasper: By opening my, to opening myself towards my own emotional experience and my needs and my feelings.

[00:04:54] Jasper: That actually enabled me to really start to contact and understand my woman in a [00:05:00] much, much deeper way. And not just my woman, but the collective experience of the feminine in the world at the moment. And if we look at the moment that we're in as a society, we we're, we're just moving through this very difficult transition where, this sort of.

[00:05:15] Jasper: Traditional blueprint for relationships has been fractured. The traditional gender norms are no longer there. All of this is changing. Feminism has flipped the board. Essentially, women have empowered themselves and at the [00:05:30] same time, they're processing an immense backlog of trauma and pain and repression from having ES essentially been second class citizens. And experienced an enormous amount of pain at the hands of men or, you know, patriarchy or the masculine. And so all of that pain's getting processed and women kind of kind of hate men at the moment.

[00:05:52] Alessandro: mm-hmm.

[00:05:53] Jasper: also asking men to be different and protecting and providing, and this is not enough anymore.

[00:05:59] Alessandro: [00:06:00] Yeah.

[00:06:00] Jasper: modern women can take care of themselves just fine without us, and we actually have to confront the fact that our worth isn't determined by providing protection and provision. It's actually other things. It's actually emotional attunement. It's deep conversation, it's shared growth together. It's, emo emotional intimacy 

[00:06:19] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:19] Jasper: or, or sacred sexuality and all of these other things that women are now calling in that we actually don't know how to deliver.

[00:06:27] Alessandro: I agree with that. What's really interesting is that, you know, a lot [00:06:30] of the men that I talk to, a lot of their feedback to that is like, why? Why do we need that? That feels like it's all on her terms, right? It's all on her terms. But like, what about what I want? And ironically, if you think about what he wants is like.

[00:06:45] Alessandro: There's actually, there's no substance to it. It's just peace, for peace sake in a weird way, just to be left alone so that he can, you know, not have responsibility. so why are men not seeing that this is a [00:07:00] good thing for them? That this is a, like that? You know that emotional maturity and that emotional connection is when you're actually in it, something so fucking amazing for even like for men as well.

[00:07:12] Alessandro: It's not just the feminine that enjoys it, but the man doesn't see that. Right. Is that, that's not just my experience.

[00:07:19] Jasper: It's definitely not just your experience. That was also my experience and I hear the same thing as well. but it's kind of one of those things where you kind of don't know how bad you've got it until you've [00:07:30] experienced something different and then you look back on where you were and you're like, oh, actually I was suffering.

[00:07:35] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:36] Jasper: I was in pain. I was, I was numb, I was cut off to myself, disconnected, depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, and I didn't even know that I was depressed, anxious, and overwhelmed. I was just

[00:07:48] Alessandro: Because you're just trying to survive.

[00:07:50] Jasper: just surviving. And, and that's, you know, I just want, I wanted an easy partner so that I could manage all of that stuff.

[00:07:57] Jasper: And actually, that wasn't actually what I wanted. I actually [00:08:00] wanted growth so that I could get out of the, the position and the, the state that I was in.

[00:08:04] Jasper: once I evolved and matured out of that stage into a new stage of life, oh, freedom, relaxation, nervous system regulation, secure attachment in my relationship.

[00:08:17] Jasper: A woman who wants to fuck me

[00:08:19] Alessandro: mm.

[00:08:20] Jasper: most, 

​

[00:09:14] Jasper: [00:08:30] [00:09:00] most days of the week. You know, like, actually I got all, I got everything that I thought. I didn't even know I wanted that. No, that's what I wanted. I didn't even know that that would be the way that I would get it.

[00:09:24] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:25] Jasper: I thought the way to get what I wanted was by her just accepting [00:09:30] things the

[00:09:30] Alessandro: Who, who you were.

[00:09:32] Jasper: who I was. 

[00:09:33] Alessandro: Yeah, I remember that line as well. It was like, why don't you accept me for who I am? And, and I remember one day spouting that at my wife. And, and this is what I love about my wife. She just looked at me and she said, Hmm, well do you truly accept me? And, I stopped. It was, it was one of the first times that it came in and I was just like, I don't think I actually do.

[00:09:54] Alessandro: I think I want you to be easier. I think I want you to be less, I think I want you to be [00:10:00] less of who you are. Oh, fuck, the problem is me here. And, you know, and that's the, the beautiful mirror that we're talking about. Brilliant. Brilliant. I'd love to ask you how, you know, there's, you've, you've obviously used this and moved this into coaching and, you know, this experience of nearly losing, your partner wasn't the only thing that got you here.

[00:10:22] Alessandro: There's, there's lots of other experiences that you've gone through.Uh, one that you're, you know, you're, um, opening up about currently. [00:10:30] I'd love to hear about your time before this and learning to gain a spine, so to speak.

[00:10:36] Jasper: that's an interesting story and there's a lot to that. but I think, like, like many men I did, I never really got the initiation into manhood. I never really got taught how to, stand up for myself. I was a, you know, a people pleaser, bit of a plastic bag of a, you know, passive plastic bag of a

[00:10:52] Alessandro: I am so sorry for bringing up this plastic bag analogy into the world. Everyone keeps saying I wasn't [00:11:00] plastic bag. I was like, look, I just, I came up with that one night and now

[00:11:03] Jasper: My partner, my partner actually sent me that reel of yours, and she's like, this guy, this guy, he gets it. This guy's good. I'm like, oh, actually I'm going on his podcast.

[00:11:12] Alessandro: Oh, fuck. 

[00:11:15] Jasper: but for me that was, that was also a very archetypal initiation, basically experiencing the pain and the frustration and the resentment that built up. I I was a part of a spiritual sort of cult-like group a, a school that I was a part of, a yoga school, tantric yoga [00:11:30] school for, for a number of years, and.one of the big lessons for that in, in that for me was that, first of all, observing how our minds are corrupted and influenced and manipulated to believe things in a certain way and position us in a certain way. It doesn't happen just in cults. It's happening all the time. 

[00:11:48] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:11:49] Jasper: And so one of my sort of.

[00:11:50] Jasper: Core messages and things that I, I'm trying to teach is how to free your mind, how to think for yourself, how to actually insulate yourself against all of the propaganda and the [00:12:00] media wars and everything. You know, it's chaos out there and we need to be careful about how we, how we think, 

[00:12:06] Alessandro: Let's pull that back. Like, you know, I know you're only opening up to this now, and, and I can, I can tell that it's a, a sensitive topic in here, but how. How did you start with this cult? What was the insight like? You don't, no one just wakes up one day and says, okay, I'm gonna join a cult like you.

[00:12:21] Alessandro: You think you're joining something and then obviously to some degree it becomes something else. Right.

[00:12:26] Jasper: Yeah, I was, I joined a tantric [00:12:30] tantric workshop essentially. I started doing yoga classes and, yeah, basically got, it was amazing, beautiful experiences, very powerful spiritual practices, beautiful women.I was actually looking for my partner. I was looking for this, this kind of relationship that I now have.

[00:12:50] Jasper: And, that kind of opened me up. I was traveling. Exploring spirituality and, and that was the doorway in.

[00:12:59] Alessandro: [00:13:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:00] Jasper: yeah, I guess I, I, I got sucked into an organization that was, that had some really beautiful things about it. Really amazing community, powerful spiritual teachings. Beautiful women. Tick ticked all my boxes.

[00:13:11] Jasper: what I wasn't aware of and, and you know, because I was also disconnected from myself, I didn't have emotional attunement or emotional intelligence.

[00:13:20] Jasper: I didn't have as well established boundaries and I certainly didn't have a spine.

[00:13:23] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:25] Jasper: I was, I missed the red flags.

[00:13:29] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:13:29] Jasper: [00:13:30] I didn't notice and I thought it was okay. To be gaslighted, to be sort of pushed around, to be, sort of shamed into compromising my boundaries, my standards, and my needs essentially.

[00:13:44] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:45] Jasper: And so I tolerated a lot of things that I otherwise, you know, looking back on now, I was like, why the fuck did I let that happen?

[00:13:51] Jasper: Why didn't I stand up for myself? Why didn't I say something?but looking back, I can see it's just, I just didn't have the foundational education. I [00:14:00] didn't have the skillset. I didn't, I wasn't initiated into manhood.

[00:14:03] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:06] Jasper: you know, I was a boy in a man's body running around through the world chasing women and ended up getting sucked into a, a cult for six years.

[00:14:16] Alessandro: Hmm. What did that look like? Being sucked in? Where, like, where were you? Like how, what was day-to-day life like in that?

[00:14:23] Jasper: I mean it started in India. it started as started as yoga workshops and tantra workshops, and it soon became my [00:14:30] entire life.

[00:14:31] Alessandro: Yeah.

[00:14:31] Jasper: sort of dev devoted myself to the path. started adopting an entire ideology and belief system around this, believing that I was one of the special ones, one of the chosen,To be on this very special, spiritual path and teaching to be close to the gu, close to the guru, and you basically gave up my entire sort of aspirations in life to just, just go all in on spirituality, which in the one hand was actually, you know, there's a, a very [00:15:00] powerful experience there and I, it really gave me a powerful, Foundation of practice, dedicated daily practice. I was practicing 4, 5, 7, 8 hours a day for years.and at the same time it was also extremely relationally dysfunctional.

[00:15:18] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:19] Jasper: And that was part of, you know, I met my partner within the context of this school and it was messy, very messy. 

[00:15:28] Alessandro: what was the point at which [00:15:30] you felt the red flags? Did you feel that was your decision to, to leave this? Situation. And how did that come about? Where you were like, okay, I'm going through this ability to speak for myself now. How did that come about? And yeah, where was that story? 

[00:15:46] Jasper: basically over time, all of this stuff started building up on the shelf. On the back shelf. I started to see different things, red flags, things that I wasn't, wasn't fully comfortable with. And then I, I found out that the, the main teacher, [00:16:00] the main, the spiritual guide of the school was basically trafficking all of the women around the world to him to receive the sexual initiation.

[00:16:09] Jasper: In person from him, and he's a 76-year-old man. And, I wasn't comfortable with that. And, yeah, I, I'd heard stories of abuse andthat was when I kind of finally. This straw that broke the camel's back, and I [00:16:30] decided, I, I don't stand for this, this, it felt like a corruption of the very thing that I was preaching and practicing myself.

[00:16:39] Jasper: This was, in fact, a violation of the spiritual principles. It didn't, it wasn't love. It wasn't conscious, it was manipulation, it was control and coercion.

[00:16:49] Alessandro: Yep.

[00:16:50] Jasper: So that was an, that was a, a sort of watershed moment for me where I actually started to stand up and took a position of opposition against that and said, this isn't, this isn't [00:17:00] right. 

[00:17:00] Alessandro: Yeah. 

[00:17:01] Jasper: And that was basically the catalyst for us to leave.

[00:17:04] Alessandro: Okay. And then you and your partner left together.

[00:17:06] Jasper: Yeah.

[00:17:07] Alessandro: Wow. good job on doing that. I think, you know, as much as we, we, we see these things, I think this is, these are the moments that we look at and we actually realize as men, if we stand up and say, no. We start to form a voice. 'cause I think, I think this is something you and I touched on, before off camera, but I believe that [00:17:30] often when you think about this work, people think that, oh, I just have to please the woman and say, yes.

[00:17:36] Alessandro: yes dear, your happy wife, happy life. And, and then lose all sense of yourself. But in actual fact, what, what our women and, and, and mostly what the work requires of us is to. Find out what our nos are in life to find out what isn't no, and actually stand for something and not be so passive that we, we just float [00:18:00] along.

[00:18:00] Alessandro: Would you agree with that?

[00:18:01] Jasper: Yeah, man. And it was, I mean, I mean it was my know that ultimately ended up convincing her that she could trust me.

[00:18:09] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:18:10] Jasper: It was me taking a stand that actually, enabled her to feel safer with me. Because she saw that I wasn't just gonna abandon my position or abandon my responsibilities or abandon her

[00:18:22] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:23] Jasper: at the first sign of challenge or, you know, something shifting.

[00:18:27] Jasper: She saw that I actually had a direction, I [00:18:30] had a certain sense of principles and values that I stood, which stood by, that actually made me, in integrity. I had something to be, you know, aligned with.

[00:18:40] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to actually have integrity as a man. It's one of the biggest ones that I think one of the biggest unmet needs that we don't really think about as men, but it's one of those things that a woman judges us on,

[00:18:53] Jasper: Yeah, 

[00:18:54] Alessandro: she 

[00:18:54] Jasper: and I, and, and I didn't realize how out of integrity I was.

[00:18:58] Alessandro: Mm.

[00:18:59] Jasper: And [00:19:00] since learning how to be in integrity, I look back and then I was like, holy shit. I had to, I actually had to go through the pain of being so out of integrity that I hated myself.

[00:19:08] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:09] Jasper: I didn't even trust myself. My word was, you know, not my word meant nothing.

[00:19:13] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:14] Jasper: ' cause I was lying so much and doing all of these clever gymnastics to get my way.

[00:19:19] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:20] Jasper: And it was, that was so painful that, you know, she ended up leaving me because of it.

[00:19:25] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:26] Jasper: And then I had to look at all of that and go, oh fuck. That's [00:19:30] why integrity's important. 'cause if I don't have integrity, I don't stand for anything.

[00:19:34] Jasper: And then how the fuck could she trust me? Of course she doesn't trust me. Of course she doesn't feel safe. Of course she doesn't wanna fuck me.

[00:19:40] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I, I think all of that doubles. And triples when you're aiming to start a family and things like this, you know, there's, there's, I think there's, within the feminine it, it require, it tests us. It requires of us a, that integrity [00:20:00] and if we are moving away from it, that it'll, it'll find a way to.

[00:20:04] Alessandro: Poke a hole right in a sore spot to see if, if you've really changed or not. So tell me about this, this moment when she leaves you. Like, and then you say you had to look at yourself and you had to go through the work. You know, I mean, I can hear many men right now probably, I can almost hear them shouting at the, at the screen going, but what the fuck does the work actually look like?

[00:20:27] Alessandro: You know, you keep saying the work, the work, the work, but [00:20:30] like, what is that?

[00:20:31] Jasper: I mean, I think it can be, it can be different things for different men, but I can tell you what it was for me. For me, it was looking at, and starting to confront my inner experience, my feelings, my unmet needs, the boundaries that I'd let been, you know, that I hadn't held or had been, walked all over.

[00:20:52] Alessandro: Hmm. 

[00:20:53] Jasper: And her leaving actually caused me to have a breakdown. I, I just [00:21:00] cried and cried and cried because I'd lost this woman who I loved so much. And in that pain in the, in the, in the meeting of that grief, that actually broke something open in.

[00:21:13] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:21:15] Jasper: I actually started to feel and process and sit with, what I was trying to avoid for so long that the emotional stuff, the stuff that I thought was unattractive, the stuff that I thought that she didn't wanna see, [00:21:30] that was actually what she wanted to see all along.

[00:21:31] Jasper: She wanted to see the real. The me who didn't have it all together, the, the me who was struggling, the me who had his doubts and fears. And by sort of realizing that and having that kind of like come to Jesus moment of like, holy fuck, the thing that she wanted was actually this.

[00:21:49] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:21:50] Jasper: And by being cut off and denying her this, I've actually pushed her away.

[00:21:56] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:57] Jasper: And, and within that it was, it was, there was [00:22:00] beauty as well because I started to feel so much, I was like, look how much I care, look how much sensitivity and emotion and complexities. Actually here, my, my inner world actually got a lot richer, a lot, a lot deeper, a lot more meaningful. 

[00:22:15] Jasper: And through that I was actually able to understand her much more.

[00:22:20] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Jasper: Because I understood why she felt so, upset when her feet, when I wasn't listening to her, I understood how important it [00:22:30] is to actually empathize and to be in connection emotionally with her because I felt that pain of being so disconnected from myself and then I was able to actually sort of integrate all of that.

[00:22:42] Jasper: And then actually after, I think we had maybe three, four months of a break. I actually went to her and I, I just put all of this on the table and I said, look, I can, I've, I get it. I see. I see it now.

[00:22:56] Alessandro: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Jasper: And here's what I'm gonna do about that. I'm gonna [00:23:00] take responsibility for it. I'm, I hired a coach. I started working on conscious communication.

[00:23:05] Jasper: I started doing, learning, conflict resolution. I started developing emotional intelligence and understanding what my needs were so I could actually understand what her needs were and start meeting those needs. And it was that kind of, dedicated. Focused, commitment to doing that kind of work, the relational work, let's say, that convinced her, okay, this guy's [00:23:30] clearly understood something.

[00:23:31] Jasper: I still love him. I do want to be with him, but here's the conditions, you know, like, this is what needs to happen. And I, and I was able to actually come proactively and be like, look, this is what I think we need to do.

[00:23:42] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:43] Jasper: I don't wanna go back. We're not, there's no going back to what we were doing. 'cause that's fucked.

[00:23:48] Alessandro: Yep.

[00:23:49] Jasper: Here's what moving forward looks like to me. What does it look like for you? What do you need?

[00:23:53] Alessandro: Yeah.

[00:23:54] Jasper: And so she was, she was impressed. You know, she, she was convinced by that sort of [00:24:00] amount of responsibility and direction.

[00:24:02] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:03] Jasper: and that ultimately sort of like carried us through.

[00:24:06] Alessandro: I love that. I love that. And anyone hearing this, obviously it's going to look different for every single person, but I think there's some real absolute beauty in what Jasper is saying. It's just you have to look at the inner workings of yourself and I think there was something that, that you reminded me of when you were talking about how she wasn't, she wanted the, [00:24:30] the, the vulnerable side of you.

[00:24:32] Alessandro: She wanted the real you. 'cause interestingly, I think we as men like. We're trying so hard to get women from the start, and because we're trying so hard to get women, we project or create a version of ourselves that we think that they would like. And so if I could imagine this fragile, better version of me, you know, sitting there, he's probably doesn't have emotions.

[00:24:53] Alessandro: He's cool. You know, he doesn't, he's, he's collected, he's, he's got his shit together. And then the problem [00:25:00] is life has a way of. Sifting through bullshit and the famine has a way of seeing through bullshit. And then the moment that someone sees through the bullshit of the little version of you that you've created, you have to try and defend it. You have to try and hold it up because shit, somewhere in my head, I've told myself that if that version of me. Is not there. She'll see the real me and she'll probably leave me for the real me. And, and it's actually the opposite. We, we we're, she's really wanting to see the real you. And it comes down to a line that you said to me off camera [00:25:30] as well, is we gain power from going into feelings instead of we getting us getting weaker, we gain power from going into that.

[00:25:38] Jasper: that's certainly been my experience because I, what I found and discovered in that was, was authenticity. 

[00:25:44] Alessandro: I'm actually not denying the truth anymore. I don't have to hold up this facade of this perfect man. I can actually be broken. I can be unfinished. I can be in the mess, and I can be, which is the [00:26:00] truth. I'm able to actually step into the truth, which is that I don't have it all together. I'm not perfect. I'm fumbling and bumbling my way through this. Just like you. I've got skills that I need to develop. I'm working on it. I'm gonna make, I'm gonna make mistakes. And that was so fucking freeing for 

[00:26:18] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:19] Jasper: I was like, ah, actually I, I can just be me.

[00:26:23] Jasper: I can just, I can just be me. And she, she actually likes that more.

[00:26:26] Alessandro: Yeah. 'cause it actually takes a lot of fucking effort to hold up that little [00:26:30] version of yourself as well.

[00:26:31] Jasper: oh. It's exhausting, man. It's exhausting and it's fake and it doesn't feel real. And we end up hating ourselves because it's not real.

[00:26:39] Alessandro: And funnily enough, hating them as well because they're not in love with that version of us. And we like, but, but look how much work I've done in holding that version up. And, and every bit of work that you've done in holding that version up, she's resenting that work that you've done. So it's, it's a very funny situation.

[00:26:56] Jasper: one of the things that she actually helped me to do, and this is [00:27:00] one of the gifts, one of the beautiful gifts that the feminine or your wife or your girl, you know, whoever it is in your life, who represents the feminine for you. One of the beautiful gifts that they have to give us is this invitation into sensitivity, into feelings, into deeper emotional intelligence.

[00:27:16] Jasper: And she gave me, she said, why don't you go and have a look at the emotional wheel. And I was like, emotional wheel. What the f Fuck the emotional wheel. I don't need the emotional wheel. And then we had a fight one day and I was like, oh, maybe I should look at the emotional wheel. Pulled it open. [00:27:30] And I was like, okay, what's, what, what's this thing about?

[00:27:32] Jasper: And it's basically just a, a chart of all the available emotions on the spectrum. And I, I looked at that and I'm like, what am I feeling right now? I was like, oh, I'm jealous. Oh, jealous. I've never admitted to being jealous before. And then I told her, Hey, I'm just, I'm feeling jealousy. And she's like, oh, you're feeling jealous, babe.

[00:27:54] Jasper: And she, she met it so beautifully and I was like. It's okay to be jealous. And she's like, [00:28:00] actually I find, I think it's cute. I think it's hot. Like you, you know, and it actually, it actually created connection. And I was like, ah, actually there's, there's power there. When I go and reclaim a connection to an emotion that I thought was not masculine or not okay for me to feel, I actually got to integrate that emotional experience.

[00:28:20] Jasper: Reclaim the needs that it's connected to, because actually, you know, jealousy actually enabled me to actually stand up for my boundaries. That I don't want her to be leaking sexual energy in the [00:28:30] direction of other men. She's my woman. I wanna claim her. She actually felt more claimed and I was like, oh, this is actually just a, a net positive for the entire relationship, because I went and looked at the fucking emotional wheel

[00:28:40] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:41] Jasper: and started gaining, gaining a bit more vocabulary to articulate why I was upset.

[00:28:47] Alessandro: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:48] Jasper: Enabled her to actually trust me more.

[00:28:50] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. It, it, it happens over and over and over again. It's even, I remember there was a guy now, in the Better Husband Academy. I [00:29:00] literally just wrote a, a long thing to the group saying his wife wants him to communicate more. He wants, wants him to communicate more.

[00:29:06] Alessandro: And I, I like in it, he's communicating to us and he's like, I don't understand what she means because the moment she says this, I'm feeling this, this, this, and this. And I feel so lost. I feel like I've never had the vocabulary to say what I wanna say and I feel this, this. And I, I just, at the end of all of this huge read, I said, have you actually said that to her?

[00:29:26] Alessandro: Why don't you just like read that vote. Bait him to her because that [00:29:30] is communication. And he's like, I never thought of it like that. I'm like, oh God, we just do it with each other. You know? Because we feel a little bit safer. And I think that's the thing is this, there's a deep seeded fear that we're trying to protect here from sharing our emotions because I think the moment we open up our emotions, we're vulnerable.

[00:29:50] Alessandro: I think a lot of work has been put on to try and create a wall and then you open that up and you're terrified that you'll be attacked in that moment.

[00:29:58] Jasper: Yeah.

[00:29:58] Alessandro: ' cause the moment [00:30:00] you open, she, somebody laughed at you at some point in your life and you don't want that to be her. 'cause that would hurt more than fucking anything.

[00:30:06] Jasper: Yeah.

[00:30:07] Alessandro: And I think that's one of the reasons,

[00:30:10] Jasper: Well, and it's, and it's, it, it's exactly there that we need to develop the capacity to be mature and have, enough inner strength to be able to handle being not met perfectly.

[00:30:24] Alessandro: Hmm.

[00:30:24] Jasper: Maybe you share something and she, doesn't receive it the way that you intended it. Maybe she uses it against [00:30:30] you at a later date and flips it around on you.

[00:30:33] Jasper: Can you develop enough strength and maturity inside of you to be able to handle that instead of running away and wrapping yourself in bubble wrap. Can I be resilient enough to express the truth and have it not handled perfectly or, or used against me? And then still be able to stay open create a culture in my relationship where we, you know, we value and prioritize the truth rather than [00:31:00] avoidance or, you know, creating a false image of how things are

[00:31:03] Alessandro: Yeah, yeah,

[00:31:04] Jasper: isn't that more empowering? Than pretending all of the time or, or, you know, try avoiding conversations that are difficult or avoiding expressing vulnerable feelings because we're afraid

[00:31:16] Alessandro: Yeah.

[00:31:16] Jasper: why not have courage instead and, and learn to go towards that.

[00:31:20] Jasper: For me, that's seems so logically, so much more empowering to figure out how can I develop myself enough so that I can feel free enough to be able to do that and meet her [00:31:30] like that.

[00:31:31] Alessandro: yeah. I agree with that. And that's beautiful too. You know, like that's, that's that. And it's, Yeah, I, I think anyone who really speaks against that really is speaking against growth. Speaking against growth. We don't, we don't have many frontiers in modern society, and I think the biggest frontier that we face is emotional frontiers, our own being.

[00:31:53] Alessandro: It is the biggest one. It's like the biggest mountain or to climb or to conquer is to, and we will never do it fully [00:32:00] because the moment you do it, something else will pop up and it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll come forward. But that is the, in my view, it is the most worthy mission there is. Is to, is to conquer the inner mountain.

[00:32:14] Alessandro: And, and, and there's not much else to conquer. You know, outwards, we, yeah, sure you could be an Olympian, but even still, at the end of it, you'll come back and, and when you're 60 you'll have to go inward again. And, and so I think it's anyone who says anything against what you just said, [00:32:30] it's just really resisting that growth, that inward mountain.

[00:32:33] Alessandro: That inner inner mountain.

[00:32:34] Jasper: And that's, you know, that's what the feminine is protesting against. That's what women around the world are up in arms about is men who refuse to grow, who refuse to evolve.

[00:32:45] Alessandro: Hmm

[00:32:46] Jasper: And that's why, you know, relationship, most of the relationship dysfunction is her wanting something different. The man resisting that change because he doesn't want to grow.

[00:32:55] Jasper: And it's that, it's that tension that creates so much of the opposition, so much of the [00:33:00] conflict, and so much of the divorce or breakup. Because, because there wasn't room to grow.

[00:33:05] Alessandro: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Jasper: I, I often say to clients, you don't have to have it all figured out. You just need to feel confident that you're moving in the right direction together, that you have a, a plan, a strategy for positive growth. To feel like, oh, things may not be perfect right now. Maybe we've got some big fucking problems on our plate, but at least we have a direction and positive momentum in that direction to [00:33:30] feel like, okay, if things aren't perfect, at least they're starting to get better. We have a plan of how they're gonna become great.

[00:33:37] Alessandro: Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

[00:33:40] Jasper: half the battle right there.

[00:33:41] Alessandro: Alright, everyone listening, if you're hearing that, that is exactly what you gotta do, make sure you know you have a plan of where to go. Is this the kind of stuff you talk about on your podcast?

[00:33:50] Jasper: I talk about it a lot on my podcast. I'm, I'm, for me, the most important thing is clarity. 

[00:33:58] Alessandro: I just, I wanna, I love [00:34:00] understanding things. I love putting things together and connecting the dots and creating, basically strategy or maps for moving from where we are to where we wanna be. Whether that's in the relational domain or in the domain of consciousness or with your life purpose.

[00:34:18] Jasper: I just wanna have, I wanna know where, where I am, what are the obstacles in my path, and how do I overcome those to get to the next level? Because I thrive when I feel that momentum. I thrive when I'm feeling growth. [00:34:30] I thrive when I'm, my mind is expanding and I feel like reality is getting deeper and better all the time.

[00:34:35] Jasper: And so that's what I really try to teach is just. Connecting all of the dots, solving the problems that we're facing, and how do we move to higher levels and, you know, new stages of growth.

[00:34:46] Alessandro: Beautiful. I'll put the link for your podcast in the, in the description below, but let me know, Jasper, is there anything else you wanna share today before we jump off?

[00:34:54] Jasper: Well, I'm, I'm curious about you, man. I'm curious if there's any, any, anything that I've shared here that [00:35:00] opened up a door inside of you or connected something that you haven't heard before or maybe some of your story.

[00:35:06] Alessandro: I love the way you've put things together. I think what's interesting here is I see that. Just by listening to you. So for everyone listening to this, Jasper and I have, we've met before in person like years ago, both when we both weren't doing this work, both when we were different people.

[00:35:23] Alessandro: I would say both when we were passive or when we, you know, quote unquote hadn't found the, the path, [00:35:30] pathway to manhood. And I, interestingly enough, we both went through very different ways to get here, very different ways to get here. For me, it was a mixture of, My wife. Yeah. But it was also a mixture of my father dying and having to come to that, you know, go through that process and, and then in that, it, it, it opened me up and I had to find out what a man was without having that father figure and that.

[00:35:57] Alessandro: And then, you know, having mentors and I, I, like you [00:36:00] said, you have a coach there as well. I had had like, Dr. Anna Rubenstein from the Rites of Passage Institute and that was, I was very grateful that that kinda kind of came through me and to me on that. So listening to you, it's, it's wonderful because like I said, we've known each other from a different time and yet we've both arrived at similar places and this just comes through life in it.

[00:36:20] Alessandro: It's a validation for me that this is the pathway, if that makes sense.

[00:36:23] Jasper: Yeah. Beautiful. It was, it was a huge initiation for me as well, when, when I lost my [00:36:30] father just a few years ago, and yeah, just hear hearing you say that just reminded me of like how, how big a piece that is in terms of like the, almost an archetypal initiation from boyhood into manhood because you no longer have the father figure above you. And rather you have to take on that mantle of responsibility of like, oh, it's on me now. 

[00:36:51] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. Exactly. 

[00:36:53] Jasper: I can't. I can't. I can't be. I'm not the boy anymore. I can't be the boy anymore.

[00:36:57] Alessandro: Mm-hmm. It's, it, it, it [00:37:00] hit me even bigger. I mean, we're going to another level here, but, the other day, I was being questioned on my why by, by my mentor Anna, and he was questioning me on the why and straight after that. A phone call. That was when Julia came to me and showed me the pregnancy result that she was pregnant.

[00:37:17] Jasper: Hmm.

[00:37:18] Alessandro: And I had all these answers for my why. All these, you know, like I feel society eats this and this or this or this or this. And then when that came through and that was confirmed, I was like, none of that mattered. [00:37:30] And this is getting back to the point of the father. I ended up that night going down to try and write my why, and instead I wrote a letter to my future child.

[00:37:39] Jasper: Oh.

[00:37:41] Alessandro: And at the end of it, I wrote Love Dad, and I looked down at the word dad and had only ever, only ever spoken about myself or thought of the word dad in relation to my dad.

[00:37:56] Jasper: Mm

[00:37:56] Alessandro: But now I was him through that, and [00:38:00] that to me was. Ah, there's so many emotions that go into that, but it's kind of also a beautiful thing where you almost embody the energy of dad and, and you're like, oh, I'm the man through that now.

[00:38:12] Alessandro: Like, that's, that's me now and that's what I'm gonna need to be moving forward.

[00:38:16] Jasper: Thanks for sharing that man. That's really beautiful.

[00:38:19] Alessandro: All good, man. All good. Alright, Jasper. I'm sure we're gonna have loads more conversations in the future, either on my podcast or your podcast, but thanks for joining today.

[00:38:28] Jasper: Thanks brother. [00:38:30] Cheers. 

[00:38:30] Alessandro Frosali: That's the episode. That's all I got for you today. I just want you to remember you're not alone in this. Make sure you subscribe to stay connected, of course, and comment your win. You know? 'cause every time a man sees other men winning, they don't feel alone anymore, and I love that tools are in the show notes, starting with the better husband in two minute emails.

[00:38:47] Alessandro Frosali: Let's build this together. I'll see you next week.