The Health Hunt: Real Healing Journeys, Everyday Wellness & Expert Tips

Ep 17 - Waking Up at 3 am? Insomnia, Cortisol and Dan's Real-Time Sleep Experiments

• Sandi Magder and Daniel Schuman • Episode 17

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 10:40

Wide awake in the middle of the night with a racing mind? This episode is for anyone struggling with sleep maintenance insomnia or middle-of-the-night wake-ups. Dan shares what he’s currently experiencing, the small changes he’s testing, and how he’s thinking about fragmented sleep versus consolidated sleep.

In this mini sleep update, we explore a pattern many people know all too well: falling asleep just fine, only to wake up in the early hours unable to return to restful sleep. Dan walks through his recent adjustments, including increasing magnesium glycinate, adding L-theanine during nighttime wake-ups, and experimenting with a tighter sleep window to build stronger sleep pressure.

We discuss why fragmented sleep does not always equal restorative sleep, the role of cortisol and circadian rhythm, and how sleep structure may matter just as much as total sleep duration. This is not about perfect sleep, it’s about understanding patterns, reducing catastrophizing, and approaching insomnia with curiosity rather than panic.

If you’ve ever found yourself staring at the ceiling at 3AM wondering “Is this just my life now?”  you’re not alone.

As always, this episode reflects personal experience and experimentation, not medical advice.

🎧 If you’re navigating insomnia, sleep anxiety, or broken sleep:

• Follow the show for more honest sleep conversations
 • Share this episode with your fellow 3AM overthinkers
 • Explore our Sleep Series (Episodes 6–8) for deeper dives into sleep anxiety and the mind-body connection

Stay curious, stay patient with your nervous system, and remember sleep struggles are far more common (and more workable) than they feel at night.

Text us your thoughts, questions, or takeaways. We read every message.

All views, opinions, and commentary expressed on The Health Hunt Podcast are solely those of the hosts. They are shared in a personal capacity and do not represent the views, policies, or positions of any current or former employer, including any organizations with which the hosts may be professionally affiliated.

Connect with the Health Hunt

The 3AM Wake-Up Problem

Sandi Magder

Welcome back to the Health Hunt. A human, humble, and humorous exploration of how to level up your health. Today we're dropping a quick mini episode with Dan's real-time sleep update. We know this is a topic that so many people relate to because late at night, sometimes our nervous systems have opinions and they just want to be heard. If you fall asleep just fine but wake up at 3 a.m. with a fully caffeinated brain and zero solutions, this one's for you. Dan shares a new supplement tweak, a slightly uncomfortable sleep experiment he's running, and why this isn't just about how many hours you get, but how your sleep is actually structured. Quick disclaimer, because we have to, the Health Hunt Podcast is for informational entertainment purposes only. We're not medical professionals, and nothing shared should be considered medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before making changes to your health. All right, let's talk about that 3 a.m. demon.

Dan Schuman

Well I think, Sandy, I think we're gonna have to go into negotiations as you get all the quick disclaimer messaging, and I want to do a quick disclaimer one of these times. So Okay. So I'm getting the quick disclaimer coming up. You wait and see. So yes, uh, this won't take too long, but I thought it was really important to talk about some of the things I've been experiencing with my sleep. We did a whole sleep series, three episodes. I had mine and Sandy had uh a few of hers, and a lot was discussed backstories, successes, failures, work in progress, very much a work in progress. And so topics like sleep restriction, middle insomnia, as I coin it, or as maybe it's coined amongst many people. And then Sandy mentioned the 3 a.m. D demon. So here's the health update. Um, I don't struggle

Dan's Sleep Update: Magnesium Glycinate & L-Theanine

Dan Schuman

falling asleep. I take t-shirt time, magnesium glycinate. We love it. Yeah, I actually upped my dose to 420 milligrams, uh, one more pill, and it works. You feel it, uh, and I'm asleep. So the issue now is um going to bed at 10:30, but this wake up at 3 a.m., uh struggle to stay asleep. Specifically, my brain loves to schedule a mandatory staff meeting at 3 a.m. No calendar invite, no agenda, just vibes, and my cortisol. Probably no overtime either. That's very, very true. Oh, wait, my cortisol loves to make itself known at 3 a.m. So here's a new tweak I've added. Um it's kind of a slightly uncomfortable sleep experiment I'm running. The thing here is why this matters way more than just how many hours of sleep you get. So the first update, and Sandy had um mentioned to this in in the intro, is I added L-theanine at night. Before the comments roll in, yes, I already take magnesium. I know supplements aren't magic, and so this is not medical advice, but L-theanine specifically for me helps support, calm, and relax myself. Um, so it's not like I'm falling asleep or makes me fall asleep, but it makes me feel this kind of um aura of calmness and and relaxation. It helps to kind of take the edge off. I feel less wired. So I started taking the L-thenine as I at my wake up at 3 a.m. And um, I think it helps. Uh it's not a magic pill, as I mentioned, but I think it helps.

Sandi Magder

So I I take a supplement and I talked about this um when we were talking about the glucose episode, but I take a supplement, it's like a gel, and it has, you know, magnesium glycinate, obviously, and it has Ltheanine. And so it's that's sort of known to be, like you said, a calming, relaxing. It's actually also, I think, in the matcha that I mix that I have, because it's supposed to like it sort of almost counterbalances the caffeine effects.

Dan Schuman

So yeah, so I take the pills and then you take the is a topical?

Sandi Magder

No, it's a it's a no gel in my mouth.

Dan Schuman

Um that's the way that you get to sleep is through that gel in your mouth and at 10 30, whatever time you

Fragmented Sleep vs Restorative Sleep

Dan Schuman

got it. So fragmented sleep. So here's the core of the issue that I wanted to bring up today is whether I'm actually better off going to bed early. If I'm doing this wake up where I go to bed at 10:30 and I wake up from 3 to 4, 4:30, and then I go back to sleep for a couple hours, is sleep fragmentation. Is this healthy? Is this, you know, if I even get seven hours or eight hours, is that actually a really healthy way to sleep? Sleep research here is pretty clear on this. Fragmented sleep, such as I just rem just mentioned, does not equal restorative sleep. And Sandy must have mentioned this multiple times on uh her sleep episodes. So even if my total hours look good on paper, I am ruining my sleep cycles. They're totally disrupted. And so your body wants consolidation, not installments.

Sandi Magder

Interesting. So I'm wondering, so did you try going to sleep earlier?

Tightening the Sleep Window Experiment

Dan Schuman

So I mentioned uh last time or in my episode with sleep about uh cognitive cognitive behavioral therapy. And I had used that then for my insomnia uh when I was living in Los Angeles. But I kind of have been avoiding using that again. But it's time. And so instead of more time in bed, I have again implemented tightening my sleep window uh to build what I call stronger sleep pressure. And sleep pressure may actually be a term used all over the place. I don't want to pretend like that I'm coining this, but uh so my experiment is this now is um I go to bed closer to 11:30 or later. So I'm going to bed actually an hour later. And that can actually be tough. I can I actually get tired and like struggle to actually want to stay up later. Um, but I'm doing that. Uh and I'm waking up at 6 a.m. regardless every morning. So there's no negotiating with the pillow, there's no dog, just 20 minutes more. It is 11:30 to 6 is the window, and whatever sleep I get in that window, that's the sleep. So the theory here is that six to six and a half hours of intentional consolidated sleep may be more efficient than this kind of seven to eight hours or more of fragmented sleep. Obviously, there's still uh the hours of three to four thirty within that concise amount of sleep. And so, am I still waking up? I am, and so it's not resolved. And so I'm really working at how to efficiently manage this. And we're gonna have experts on in sleep, and I'm gonna, you know, probably see more doctors, which might mean more episodes. Um, and uh, I am again, this is all about humanizing where I'm at, how I'm feeling. I I still feel pretty good during the day. It's just um and I wake up, you know, a little bit groggy, but I get back, I get into my day, but I need it to get this sleep.

Sandi Magder

And I'm curious why 6 a.m. is your wake up time. Is that related to you have to be somewhere? Because for me, I went through a very short phase of getting up at 6, 6:30 and going for a walk in the dark. But for me, I feel like I need some amount of light to tell my brain it's time to wake up. Waking up in the dark for me feels like a torture chamber.

Cortisol, Circadian Rhythm & Why This Matters

Dan Schuman

Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think the issue is that circadian rhythm, getting your body onto a schedule. And I think what happens is if I don't wake up at six, I'll give myself the liberty to have a couple more extra hours of sleep. And although that sleep looks good on paper, and maybe there's some REM in there, never deep sleep, only REM, it may actually be hurting me that extra couple hours. Uh so uh, and I say may because I don't know. I just from the research I've done, it seems like theoretically that is the case. I I'm going to learn more. Uh, and so if anyone again is having these similar issues, happy to hear from you in regards to that. So I just want to why does this actually matter? It's not about feeling less tired. Um, fragmented sleep, as I've just discussed here, um you know you have blood sugar issues, cortisol rhythm, mood and anxiety, cravings next day, unless you're on true sapite, you'll have no cravings. Um and honestly, how annoying I can be as a human being. You know, your irritability. And so uh when your sleep is broken, your ner your nervous system is never fully stands down. It's kind of this flight or fight or flight mode. You're technically resting, but you're still kind of like biologically on call. So I'm realizing that I as I'm chasing more sleep time, I might actually be getting more stuck. And so I'm not approaching this as dogma or as perfection. This is a test. I'm trying to figure out if it's a later bedtime uh with an earlier consistent wake up with my magnesium and L-thenine, not catastrophizing if one night sucks during this process. I'm trying to see if this works. It's still very much a work in progress. It's been a bumpy ride.

Sandi Magder

Okay, can I just point out that you said catastrophizing, one of my favorite big words? So thank you for that.

Dan Schuman

Huh. Didn't know that. Again, learning a bunch of new things. Did I actually just say catastrophizing? You did. Huh. Okay. I didn't realize I said it.

Sandi Magder

Perfect, I'm having an influence on you. Be very careful. Seriously.

Dan Schuman

Subconsciously.

Sandi Magder

Okay, so just on the note of catastrophizing, we actually talk a lot about these concepts in our sleep series, which again is episodes six to eight, if you want to go back and check those out. And episode eight is where I really get into the mind-body connection, sleep anxiety, and chronic insomnia, which is kind of where the topic of catastrophizing really shows up. And so I think that's all useful for anybody that's struggling with sleep.

Dan Schuman

If you ever laid in bed at 3 a.m. thinking, is this just my life? You're not broken, you're not alone. We're gonna unpack this together. I'm going through it right now and uh I'm looking into it and trying to figure it out, but uh very much a work in progress. So, as always, this is not medical advice. Uh, this is me running an experiment, I guess the experiment of my life, sharing what I learned in real time.

Sandi Magder

Yeah, and if you're dealing with sleep issues, follow the show and share those with someone who's also awake way too early for no good reason. It generally helps more people find out.

Dan Schuman

So, you know, as you know, we'll report back honestly wins, losses, everything in between. Uh, if you're awake right now listening to this at 3 a.m., first of all, hi. Hi. Second of all, put the phone down. We'll talk soon.

Sandi Magder

And then we'll see you next time on the Health Hunt Podcast.