EP.16: When Financial Stress Shows Up at Work

Tech professional and PMP-certified leader Jessica Norwood joins coach Karol Figueroa to break down how financial stress, salary gaps, and “golden handcuffs” impact your career decisions.

Learn why having a financial Plan B increases your leverage at work, how lifestyle creep quietly traps you, and why talking about salaries is key to uncovering hidden pay gaps. Jessica also shares strategies to negotiate beyond your base salary and take control of your financial future.

If you’re avoiding your finances or feeling stuck in your job because of money, this episode will help you build confidence, clarity, and real financial power.

Connect with today’s guest, Jessica Norwood

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicafnorwood/  

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesugardaddypodcast/ 

Meet your host: Karol Figueroa

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karolfigueroa/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karol.figueroa.tate/

Need support at work? HIK Trainings can help.

Website: https://www.hiktrainings.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hiktrainings/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hiktrainings 

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think we're so limited in what we hear about money and then when we do hear about it, it's shame induced. It's we don't have enough. We have to hoard it. You can't talk about it because that's bad.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

When you always have a plan B, financial plan B, you operate different at work. Because when you have a financial plan B, meaning that, hey, I know how to monetize some of the skills that I have. Whether I am in this job or not, whether I'm making the same amount or not, you go to work with less, like, this is my livelihood.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Do something with the knowledge that you're gaining. And just know that a little bit or something is better than nothing.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Hello everyone, and welcome to Coffee and Coaching. As you all know, we're on season two when Live Hits Work. We've talked about crisis management. We have talked about ADHD and how to show up at work and as an adult, and we have talked about life freedom. But today's topic is a silent stressor that lives behind everything that we do. Today's topic is about our finances. And I know please don't leave us because this is a big reason why. Yo, because we put all this pressure to be able to provide financially for our families, and it's such an important topic that continues to hit our lives every day. So I want you to think about this crazy thought. Did you know that you had a longer relationship with money than you had of any other romantic relationship in your life? Yet, so many of us, money is a topic wrapped in silence and scarcity and change. I am beyond excited to welcome Jessica Norwood. Jessica is a tech professional, a certified PMP, and the co-host of the incredible podcast Sugar Daddy, which she runs with her husband, a licensed financial advisor. Today, Jessica and I are having a real unfiltered conversation about why having a financial plan B completely changes how you show up at work and it removes that desperation out of your career, which you know is real. We are unpacking the famous lifestyle creep, which for the first time I'm hearing about, even though I'm a victim or a user of it. Um, and why you absolutely must start discussing uh salary with your friends and co-workers, which I've heard is a huge no-no, and how to stop avoiding, you know, bank accounts that are really not helping you. So it's a lot a lot of great stuff that I never even thought about as I was building this episode. Jessica was an inspiration, and she is incredibly knowledgeable on this topic. That honestly, like many people out there, I try to avoid like the plaque. So, Jessica is here today. I'm grabbing my coffee, I'm listening to this amazing conversation that we had, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's dive in. Thank you so much for being here, Jessica. I am super excited that you're our guest for today's topic, which is when financial stress hits work.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Thank you so much for having me. It's an important conversation, and I'm glad we're gonna have it today. So thank you. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

So I want to start with saying what made you start your podcast, right? Let's start there because you heard a lot of important topics on financial wellness. And what was the motivation that got you to be like, no, we need we need to start a podcast on this?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah. So my husband, Brandon, is a licensed financial advisor, and he was looking for a way to reach a broader audience, especially in the black and brown community. And so we were looking at social media and TikToks and newsletters, and none of those really resonated. Like we're elder millennials, like I watch TikToks on Instagram. Like, so being out there and like twerking on the gram, that's just not our style. Like, we're just not going to do it for the likes. And so he's very thoughtful and very intentional with the education and the advice that he gives. And so we wanted a way to actually have the conversation, normalize the conversation. And the best way to do that is through a podcast. And so he is the licensed expert professional, and I'm the normal person asking the questions that we all have on our mind, the questions that take the jargon out and remove the shame and the fear of asking it the wrong way or saying the wrong thing, because that's what's held us back. And honestly, that's what's been keeping us broke is not having the conversation. So we wanted to normalize it without the jargon and really just have the conversations. And so, I mean, you're a listener. So we just have the conversation. And it's like people are sitting with us having coffee at a coffee shop in our living room, wherever. And you just get to hear us talk about all of the important financial, the foundational blocks of money. But then we also talk about the psychology of money and what to do in this kind of state of emergency where everybody's getting laid off. And how do you navigate that? And just money is so emotional for people. And so that's what we really talk about. We talk about the foundational pieces of how to get your money right, but then we also talk about diving in and understanding how to manage money in a partnership with your spouse, when you bring in kids, when you want to buy a house. What about the student loans? I mean, all of those aspects, you know, we talk about week over week every Wednesday.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

I love it. And I am going, we're going to add the link to this to this podcast because it's incredible. Um, and to this podcast episode, it's going to be included. And I do want to say, uh, speaking of our husbands, I know my husband was a guest in your podcast, and I was listening before that. But then I was super excited. And you know, uh Stanley, he so my husband is a student loan lawyer and he helps people be freed of student loan debt. And I'm very proud. Yes, he should be. I'm very, very proud of the work that he does. But when he he didn't tell me until the podcast was out that he did it, right? Because like we we talk about our work, but he doesn't. And so when he's like, Oh yeah, there was this podcast, and I'm like, I'm like, are you serious? Is this how I find out after it goes by? He's too busy to tell you what podcast he's on. Yes, but I'm like super proud because he's he's so down in getting the work done that sometimes he he doesn't do many of those.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

So I'm very proud that he that he did it, and it was a great episode that we would probably honored to have had him because the knowledge he dropped and just how real he was, and those are the conversations that we love to have, those expert conversations where you're really digging in and understanding the nuance. I mean, who else is out there talking about student loan forgiveness with the expertise of a lawyer behind them? I mean, it was a phenomenal conversation. Yes, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

I didn't know uh I had a neighbor that was like, I just saw your husband on YouTube. And I'm like, Yeah, um she's like, I I could have come to him. I didn't know people did this. I'm like, I think a lot of people don't know there's lawyers that can help you with with that. So let's talk, you said a word that I can can get out of

Unpacking Money Shame and the Scarcity Mindset

SPEAKER_03 7:05

shame. The word shame and the shame we feel to I don't know. I I I have been there, right? Because I have a very complicated relationship with money, which we're all gonna talk about, different types of relationship with the money, but what is that shame and and is it broad? And do you think it's it's where does it come from?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Well, it it's such a loaded and great question. And Brandon and I try to unpack this all the time. I think it starts when we're really young. And I think it starts with how we heard money being talked about. Did you come from a scarcity mindset? Um this is something we have two young kids, and we try to be very intentional. If our kids, you know, you bring them into a store, any store, and they will find the one toy, tchotchke, stuffed animal. It doesn't matter if you're at the gas station, they're like, Can I have that? And instead of saying things like, we can't afford that, we'll say that's not what we're here to prioritize today, or that wasn't on our list. Today we're gonna stick to our list. Or actually, we're gonna spend money on that upcoming vacation. So we're gonna put that money towards our vacation bucket this month instead of towards another toy. And so, even just those little in the moment reframes that aren't scarcity-based. I think a lot of us, especially in black black and brown communities, you know, you didn't talk about money because it's rude, it's disrespectful, it's godly, you know, it's private, stay in a child's place. I mean, I'm an elder millennial, we're in our 40s, and so that was something that we heard a lot, right? Stay in a child's place. Children are meant to be seen, not heard. So asking questions wasn't allowed. I think for me, the the biggest money lesson that I got growing up was save your money, don't spend more than you have. And then that's kind of where it stopped. I mean, I remember I was 22, I started teaching. Nobody said to me, get your 401k match. Here's what a 401k is, here's how it's going to set you up for the future. I didn't have those conversations. Um, and even though Brandon's mom was a college professor and did extremely well for herself as a single mom, she didn't have those conversations with Brandon and his brother either. And so I think we're so limited in what we hear about money. And then when we do hear about it, it's it's shame-induced. It's we don't have enough. We have to hoard it. We can't talk about it because that's bad. That's not this, that's not that. Oh my God. So I think, you know, even taking me back. I was like, I know, there's and there's so many phrases, right? That are that are rooted in like money, shame, and not talking about it because it's all those things that that we learned about. And so instead of having the conversations that other people are having at their dinner table early, where it's like totally okay to learn about money and to ask questions about money that will eventually help you build wealth and hopefully avoid the mistakes that I'm sure you made, I know I made, not talking about it doesn't prevent those things. And then you end up getting adults who come to Brandon, who are brilliant doctors, lawyers, different kinds of physicians, et cetera, professors who are very smart in their field and feel really insecure about their lack of knowledge when it comes to money. But we're not learning it in school at most levels, unless you took an intentional finance or economics class in college, which if you're not a finance major or maybe a business major, why would you take that? So you're not learning it, but people have this deep shame about, well, I should have known better. I should have known this from who? You didn't learn it in school, you didn't learn it at home, you didn't learn it from your family members. Did learn was not to talk about it. So you didn't. And now you're an adult who's maybe made mistakes, doesn't know how to navigate it, doesn't know how to put the pieces together, doesn't know the foundational components, and you're feeling shame about something that you've never learned and nobody's ever taught. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yeah, I am, first of all, like you're hitting all the old point right now. I am one of those people that does not talk about money and does not want to. And the thought of sitting down and talking about money produces such a high level of stress for me. You sweating. Are you like, oh my god. I'm like, I'm like, why are we talking about it? Like we're doing, like, we shouldn't talk about it. We should just keep going and then like figure it out. And like it's it's and it's not healthy. It's not healthy. And I've learned that late too late in life. And also, like, I love that you talk about the teachings that you do with your children. Now let's like when I think about that, right? Not talking about it. Now you're coming to work and you are not talking about it, and it's eating you alive inside. And I and I I want to to go deeper on this because I I always tell this, and I had this talk at Microsoft when I was there with a team that they asked me about my journey, and I told them about me getting a certification as a coach.

The Power of a Financial Plan B & "F You" Money

SPEAKER_03 11:57

And I said, when you always have a plan B, financial plan B, you you operate different at work. Because when you have a financial plan B, meaning that, hey, I know how to monetize some of the skills that I have, whether I am in this job or not, whether I'm making the same amount of not, you go out to work with less, like, this is my livelihood. If I, if I, if I don't have this job, if I lose it, and then someone gets the promotion, someone gets the recognition for the work that you're doing. And now your body and your brain think about this as a livelihood issue that this presentation is life or death for my career. And I think that having options, financial options, whether it is a plan B because of your skill set or savings or retirement money, right? Like it just makes you navigate work differently.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

What do you think about that? I think that's spot on. I think, you know, some people will call it like FU money because if you have choices, I love that. It's money gives you options. And that's just the reality, right? Options to leave a top toxic manager, a toxic workplace, a bad relationship, a home that you don't feel safe in. It gives you options. And so, especially for women, all women, I don't care what color you are, all women should have your own money at all times and you should know how to make your own money at all times. And I do agree with what you said. I do think it helps you walk through life differently, knowing that you've got a backup. Some people operate under if I have a plan B, I'm not going to give my all to plan A, but that's not really what it's about. It's really about knowing your worth and being able to walk away and hopefully having the financial backing to make those choices that will serve you better instead of staying stuck because you have to. And in this economic environment, most people feel stuck, right? Even high earners, six-figure earners are living paycheck to paycheck because they don't have the savings. They don't have the foundation in place. They're playing catch up with their retirement. So now they can't retire as early as they were hoping. And those things will make you feel stuck, and those things will make you feel stressed. And then that is what you bring to work. But

Discussing Salaries with Coworkers to Expose the Wage Gap

SPEAKER_02 14:06

the other component that I think is really important and that I've I think I've always benefited from is talking about money with coworkers that are that have turned friends because you don't know where you stand. You assume that you're in the same pay band as somebody doing the same job as you on the same team as you. But once you start having the conversation, there is levels. Okay. And you will really quickly realize that people negotiate differently. People get different bonuses, people get different sign-on offers, people have different equity available to them. And it does not always equal their title. It does not always equal, you know, their level in the company. A lot of times it's what did they negotiate coming in? And I'll tell you, I pride myself in negotiating. It is a skill that you can learn. Yes, it is uncomfortable for the first five seconds, but what's less comfortable is not making the money that you were supposed to make. And so I think having those conversations, you know, with some trusted folks in your organization or in adjacent, you know, companies in a similar field gives you the insight that you need to really level up where you're supposed to be and ask for those raises and push for those promotions and make sure that you're getting compensated for the work that you're doing. Because without those conversations and without that knowledge, you're just going in blind. And I guarantee you you are underpaid.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

I I love that you you're saying this and I want to repeat it because I think it's so important and crucial. And I don't know that people are talking about it. So what you're saying is that you could be in the same role or same title as someone and get paid way less than them. And unless you have that conversation, you will never know.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

You will never know. How would you know? How would you know? And so I'll tell you, I'm really, really lucky that I have a group of friends, male and female, where we talk about our numbers. We talk about what did the what was the W-2 at the end of the year? What was the bonus? What was the equity? How much did you negotiate for your sign on? I

Negotiating Beyond the Base Salary

SPEAKER_02 16:08

mean, all of it, you know, like I'll give you an example. The company that I just left, when I started there, I wasn't where I wanted to be for my base. And so I negotiated not only severance for myself, but I also negotiated a um a stipend for education. So then I had to wait nine months to access that stipend. As soon as that nine months hit, I enrolled in my PMP course that I knew I wanted. It took me 30 days to get my PMP and they paid for it. And now I no longer work there, but guess what I'm leaving with? A PMP that I didn't have the year before. I love it. And it was paid for by them. So even if you can't get to the base salary or whatever it is important to you, right? It might be your base salary, it might be new equipment, it might be a cell phone bill, it could be a conference that you wanted to go to, it could be education, new laptop every two years, whatever it is, whatever is important to you, things are negotiable, but closed mouths don't get fed. And if you don't ask, the answer is always no. You you have me.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

This is gonna be good because I'm already there. I'm like, I'm about to make some phone calls after this episode.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

I'm like, I mean, I I literally have friends that will call me. They're like, I'm about to negotiate and I need you to hype me up. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

And I'll give up like a two-minute laptop. Sorry, and I hate that it's gonna come out, but I'm not telling the company name. It happened once where I was uh a leader amongst 20 plus uh other leaders in the organization. Large department. I was uh from the 20 plus, only three were female. From the three females, I was the only one with children uh and married. And accidentally someone sent a file that they shouldn't have sent. And until this file was sent, I did not find out that I was the one of the least lowest salaries in the entire company in that role. And I was constantly in the top quarter percent performer of that company. And let me tell you, life changing for me. Life changing for me. Um, and I remember when I negotiated uh this protest salary, I very specifically said, we, you know, this is my number. And they were like, well, you either take this or I'm not giving you anything else. And I remember in that moment, I had a newborn and I was trying to travel less, and this job allowed me to do that. Go looking back and knowing the person that I negotiated with and the options that I was given and their background and what they believe someone like me is worth or not, is one of the pieces of information that has allowed me to step into entrepreneurship much more confidently.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yes. Yeah, because you're going to add the value that is worth the charge. And you have the receipts to prove it because you were already a top performer. So it's so sad because I've heard those stories time and time again, right? That that HR file that should have never been sent accidentally gets sent or gets left in the printer, right? When we were at the copy machine when we were all still in the office. Like we all have those stories, but that's the reality. So instead of waiting for the email or the copy machine file to be left somewhere, let's have the conversations. And I think especially, and this is something that I advocate, especially as brown women, find yourself that work husband that is yes, we know what he needs to be. Yes, he's willing to talk numbers because that is the number we're trying to get to. We already know that there's a wage gap. So even having conversations amongst ourselves is very valuable. It really is. But let's let's crank it up a notch and let's have that next level conversation and let's make sure that the compensation is there because the work is getting done. The impact is there, it's positive. We know that we're top performers, but we need to be properly compensated for it. And if you cannot talk about it, you're never going to earn it.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

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SPEAKER_01 20:17

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SPEAKER_00 21:06

And we're back. You're listening to Coffee and Coaching, where we blend real conversations with real growth. Let's jump in.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Yeah, I love it. And this leads me to my next question, which is Is the job the reason why you're feeling financially pigeonholed? Or is it that the way you have a relationship with money, in your opinion, what have you seen out there the most when you're coaching people in this finance situation?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

It's such a good question. I

The Illusion of Job Security & Escaping "Golden Handcuffs

SPEAKER_02 21:35

think, especially in the United States, we are so beholden to our jobs for things like health insurance, right? I mean, that alone will keep people in a situation they don't wanna be in. I've been I've been carrying my family's health insurance for since forever. My husband was a domestic partner on my health insurance when we were dating. I've always worked for pretty progressive companies. And he's an entrepreneur, and you know how expensive it is to ensure yourself as an entrepreneur. And so with one of my the first companies that I worked for when I moved to North Carolina, I asked if I can have a companion on my insurance. And they said sure. So that alone saves him a thousand plus dollars a month to be on my insurance. And now I carry, you know, the burden or the blessing, however you want to look at it, of having the entire family on my insurance. So if I'm not employed, that's that's a dangerous place for my family to be in. You know, so I think things like health insurance are a huge factor in why people stay in jobs that maybe are not serving them otherwise. Once you get up, I'm in the tech space. So once you get into that tech space and you've got your stocks and your RSUs and, you know, they call them golden handcuffs for a reason. Because you've got this chunk of money sitting that, you know, is partially vested, but not fully vested. And then by the time it's fully vested, you've got this other chunk that's still being vested, and you don't want to leave it on the table because it's throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars down the drain. So you stay and then you stay and you stay. And that's where the term golden handcuffs comes from, because it literally feels like they've got you handcuffed to your desk because you don't want to leave because those benefits are really important. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to work until I'm 70. I don't want to work until I'm 50, honestly. Like I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

I'm ready to retire now. I'm willing to change some things in my lifestyle to make that number go down.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

Like exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

But that's but that's where it, that's what it is, right? It's that lever of how much are you saving? How much are you investing?

Defining Lifestyle Creep: Why Making More Means Spending More

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Do you have lifestyle creep, right? That's another huge thing. Is only increasing your salary, but you can continue to live comfortably at the level where you are. But most people don't. Most people are like, I need the bigger house, I need the nicer car, I need to be taking these kinds of vacations. So then everything goes up.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

For the purpose of this episode, can you define what is lifestyle creep so people understand it more clearly? Because I I honestly I didn't understand it till really later in life. And then once I figured that out, I'm like, oh, I'm causing my own problems. So can you explain to the listeners what it is?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah. So it's really, it's it's quite simple. It's you make more, so you spend more, right? So instead of keeping your life where it is, maybe let's for easy numbers, let's say you have a $1,500 mortgage, right? And you make $100,000 a year. Now you make $200,000 a year. So you're like, well, of course I need a bigger house. So now instead of having a $1,500 mortgage, you now have a $3,000 mortgage. So you've doubled your mortgage because you've doubled your income. Now you want the nice car because you have a new title and you want your title to match this vehicle that you're driving and parking in the parking lot or in front of your nice new fancy house. So now you have a higher car payment. Well, now I need to f fly first class to my vacations because I deserve it and I work hard. So now your trips that would have cost X amount now cost double X amount. And so you're just constantly spending more. You're treating yourself more and more and more to bigger houses, different cars, different lifestyle luxuries. And so your cost of living goes up exponentially. And it's the creep that happens as your salary increases. The most successful people, and this is difficult, but the most successful people start earning more, whether it's through their W-2 income, entrepreneurship, side hustles, et cetera, and keep their costs the same. So they don't go out and splurge on the new car. They don't go and upgrade their home. They don't go and buy a second home. They travel the way they normally traveled. So their income has increased, but their cost of living has stayed the same. And that's really where you can start building true wealth. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Love it. Um, that was big for me, like huge. I cannot tell you how much I have to relearn and retrain myself after I became an entrepreneur. I am a I love spending. Yes. Like I'm not gonna lie. I like, you know, my night car. I enjoy staying at a nice hotel. But for me, nice is not necessarily a four seasons, right? For me, I can have a really good time at a Hampton Inn that is clean and nice, and I'm across the beach, right? So I'm like, I I my definition, everybody has their own definition of nice. Yes. My husband has his own definition of nice, right? He has way more shoes than me. So mine too, yeah. Feel like it's so interesting because I'm not saying like financial stress is happening right now. We he over a million people lost their jobs, 700,000 plus were women of color, right? Last year alone. And more are coming this year. Tech layoffs have been at an all-time high, and they're will continue, just like you. I come from tech. Gratefully, I made the decision of moving on because of where I was at. But I spent a lot of time planning for that, right? And part of that planning was hey, I'm gonna pay off my car. I don't want to have a car, no. I also have an electric car, so I charge my car at the house. Not having an expense like that just changes everything else that I do. Now, I need to Doordash and I have a very complicated relationship that we need to let go. Okay. When I pulled up my expenses for DoorDash, and I'm like, I am working this hard so Door Dash can keep having business. And I'm like, do I really need to eat this right now? So what we did is like, if I really want to eat that particular thing, I'm gonna schedule time with my family so we can go out and eat it. That's I like that. Especially during the cold months. Like, I feel like during the cold months, it's like, I don't want to cook, I'm tired, and it's cold outside, right? Like, that's when it goes at an all-time high. But but it took me a while, right? To be able to analyze, but I'm the person that you will coach the most because I'm the I don't see, I don't want to know, I just want to make X. But not seeing, especially in today's environment, would lead you to the death of subscription charges and like things that you didn't know that it was happening. So as I was managing my business, I had to learn to manage myself differently because the W-2 wasn't coming every two weeks. It was coming whenever I had a client.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Well, exactly. Well, but you said something that I think is really important, and this is something that Brandon stresses on the podcast all the time is you said you looked at and analyzed. And that is a really, really important step. Most people, especially now, we don't carry cash. All we do is swipe, swipe, swipe. All of our credit cards are attached to our phone. So if you want something, you're one click away, even laying in bed, sitting on your sofa, sitting in the car pickup line for your kids. Like you can buy anything instantly, right? And if you're not actually analyzing your spending, then you have no idea where your money is going. And so it's even if it's not big things. Like I have one of my best friends, she'll say, Oh, I got this La Roche-Pose at Home Goods or PJ Maxx, and it was only $16.99 instead of $45 or $48. And I'm like, that's amazing. But when you do that three times a week, it's still gonna add up. And if you didn't budget for it, if you didn't plan for it, if you really didn't need it, and we all do that. So this is not casting judgment, but if you're not looking at your expenses, then you don't know how quickly the $16.99 and the $599 and the $6 latte and

Building the Foundation & The 48-Hour Spending Rule

SPEAKER_02 29:30

the this and the that adds up. And it's never about the $16 La Roche-Pose, whatever, or the $6 latte. It's about the plan that you have. Did you pay yourself first? Did you already put money into savings for the month? Did you get your employee match through your automatic contributions? Or do you have a fully funded emergency fund? Right. If you don't have the foundational pieces in place and then you lose your job, and then you go back and look at all of the spending you did, you're gonna say, oh my gosh, I didn't need 80% of that, right? So sometimes what I do just to challenge myself is I'll put things in my cart and I have to wait 48 hours. And if I still have that urge or if I still have that desire 48 hours later, then I'll buy it. But most of the time I'm like, that feeling went away and I don't really need this.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yes. It's just simple. That's a marketer. As a marketer, that's what we're trying to hit every time we put an ad or we put a product out there is the emotional side of your brain. Feeling pull me in. Companies want you to make an emotional decision when purchasing, so you don't think about it and you just do it. Believe me, if you have you have a 12-year-old daughter, if you don't go to Minnozo with your with your daughter and like all these little chatskis and things that really just cost one dollar to make and you pay like 20. Like I'm just like, and she's like, but I want it. I'm like, why can't we go to Alibaba and I'll buy you 30 of yes?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

That's but that's an important conversation. And we do that with our kids too. We'll talk about because we we prioritize travel in our family. So, for example, my kids have never been to the county fair, but they've been on a Disney cruise, they've been to Panama, they've been to Aruba, they're getting ready to go to four countries in the month of June. Like they're living. Okay. But we talk to them about where we spend what. And so even if you go to the the um aquarium, right? We went to the aquarium this past summer, and of course, they want whatever stuffed animal. Okay, now it's a $40 stuffed animal. We can go up the street to the Walmart, get the exact same one with the exact same tag for seven. So I will drive to this, to this, you know, the store across the street and I will show them and turn it into a lesson. Like, hey, this costs this much because we're still standing inside of the aquarium right now. We can get this exact same thing across the street. Do you trust me? Let's go. And then you show them, you know, it's the same way, okay. We're gonna pack our reusable water bottle to get through the airport. We're not buying a six dollar bottle of water at the airport convenience store. We're not doing it. So it's those little conversations just in day-to-day. We're not sitting down and having a big fancy family meeting. Like, no, it's just those day-to-day interactions where we're pointing out this one bottle of water is gonna have a different dollar value where you buy it. Like I bought my son a $6 bottle of Aquafina at the Monster Jam a couple weekends ago. And it, oh, it boiled my blood. I was so angry because they said you couldn't bring in your own water bottles. And I was like, hey, look at how much this costs. This is why we bring our water bottles everywhere. So it's those little things to just bring awareness.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Yeah, I love all of this. I love it. And I want to go into a very specific topic, but uh before we wrap, but so in that particular thing, I think it's interesting what people what boils people's skin and what they spend. Because I literally, uh so I went to a book fair, I'm a writer, and I went to a book fair, Baltimore, one of the biggest book fairs in in the US, was happening in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago. And I lived 10 minutes away from from the conference, and I'm like, oh great, 10 minutes away. But my husband couldn't take me that day. And I had to bring my son and I had to do all this stuff, and I could have got an Uber, but then I had to wait. And like all this stuff happened. I ended up paying $70 in parking. I was gonna stay somewhere for two hours. And I became so mad, I was so angry. And he's like, because I'm a bookie, right? So he's like, so you are mad because of the parking. And I'm like, always, I'm always mad at parking. I'm gonna I'm gonna show you everything that happened in this conference, and I bought this many books, and I spend the exact amount of money on this book that I did on the parking. He's like, Yeah, parking is the problem and not the books. And I'm like, Yeah, and he's like, I don't get it, right? I understand, I see you, I see you, I promise. And and then I went to the same parking lot and I told, hey lady, I was here earlier. I was trying to lose negotiations. She's like, You still gotta pay an extra $50. It was so insane. But what that led me to believe, that conversation, I laughed so hard, but I was what led me to believe is there's things that we will spend money on because somehow in our brain, we have justified it. We have justified it that it has done, and like that scarcity mindset, but it's just ambut abundance, right? It's such a different mentality. And like, so for example, something that I'm it's like one of the things that I tell my kids, one of the most expensive things is time, right? But one of the most expensive also things that you can do is like social media takes all of it. So instead of doing that, so had a client that she took, she took social media out and she started creating and writing books. And she's like, the time I could spend social media, I'm gonna spend in writing books. And now she created a second source of income for herself because what she decided to spend her time on wasn't just creating, but it was also generating money versus spending time to then spend more money because that's a social media trick. One of the things I show in my emotional intelligence training all the time is like how many of you have at 3 a.m. in the morning have bought something on Amazon or Instagram that you regret? Almost everybody raises their hand because they they know you're online, they know you're gonna buy. And I think that that that where you where you spend your time has also to do a lot with with where you are right now and why it's causing you so much stress. I can talk to you forever, Jessica. I don't want to leave without this topic.

Navigating Money Identity & Being the Breadwinner

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Identity, identity with money. Because a lot of when you're talking to me about 401k, I'm that person. I'm that person. I just for some somehow God has blessed me to the point where I've survived and the kids are doing good. Uh, I also have a partner that works in the financial arena, so it makes it easier for us to do this together. But when I hear 401k, stocks, all that, and believe me, I had the golden handcuffs for for many, many years. I know what it is, but I was that person that's like, don't talk to me about it. I don't want to know anything about it. Just give me the paper and I'll sign it. Um, and the base salary, to some people, base salary is what matters, right? But I had other people that's like, well, your bonus doesn't count on your base salary. How much money do you really make? So, I think I don't know if I told you this, but like the identity of who brings the most money in the household and how that puts extra burden on you, but also how it affects your identity overall.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

How much time do we have? Okay. We have time.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

I think, and I know what's a loaded question. No, no, it's it's so good. So I I will say I've been I've been in tech for over a decade now. And um, I started out in teaching. So when Brandon, my husband, and I first got together, our salaries were very comparable to each other. They were pretty equal. And then when I left teaching and went into tech, that's when I started earning more than him. Now, even though he's a financial advisor, he's very secure in who he is. So I'm not married to somebody who feels threatened or insecure about his wife making more. He's like, Go out, make millions, baby. I got you. You know, like he I love that. You know, he's like, Let me hold your purse. I got it. You do you. So I will say we are very much a team and a partnership in that way. But also the way we think about our money and we talk about money, it doesn't matter who makes it, it's still ours. It helps us reach our goals and it helps us live the life that we have planned for and it helps us raise our children the way we've talked about raising them and helps us prioritize what we find important, right? So we're very much on the same page. Now that's not to say that when I want to redecorate the house or get a new couch, I'm just gonna go out and spend $10,000 on a new sofa without talking to him. Cause he's gonna say, wait a minute, no, no, no, we've got a plan for this. Let's let's set a budget aside, et cetera. And then I'm like, oh, but we can just go ahead and buy it. I'm gonna go this weekend. And he's like, no, we need to let's take a step back. So there is still that, right? So um, but I do think that, you know, there are women or whoever who makes more who would then say, No, I want this new couch, so I'm gonna go buy this new couch. You can do that. I can do that. That's not gonna make for a healthy, loving relationship, right? That's when those dynamics start changing. So I do think that even if you've got an imbalance, you still have to talk about it and you still have to work towards the same goals together. I do think one thing that um we do have in place that I think for those people, especially women who are like, I've worked too hard to let some man take something from me, you can put protections in place.

Protecting Yourself: The Importance of a Post-Nup

SPEAKER_02 38:39

So we we didn't do a prenup when we got married. That wasn't even on our radar, but we have since done a post-nup. And we're coming up on 10 years of marriage this year, and we have things in place like his retirement accounts are his and mine are mine, his stocks are his and mine are mine. The things that we've designated as joint are joint. So in the event that we separate, those will just get split down the middle. We have those protections in place. Um, you know, our parents are getting older, we have clauses in there about um inheritance. His inheritance is his, it would go into his account and mine is mine. We also have protections in place that if one of us puts money into our joint account over a certain amount of money, um, we actually have to have uh a signed document by a notary saying this is now communal property. So let's say he gets a large inheritance and puts $20,000 into our joint account for some vacation. And then later down the line is like, well, that was my money and did it. Nope, we have a protection in place for that. It's in the account. We had this document signed by a notary. It is now community property. It is what it is. It's no longer yours, it's now community. So you can put things in place to have the conversation to help you feel protected, to help you feel safe in the event that your marriage would dissolve, that keep your money, your money. But in the marriage, my advice is to try to get as much on the same page as possible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

And I love that you did that because a lot of people are afraid of postnap. Are you trying to leave? What is happening to wait? And you know, for a person that has been through a divorce and now I'm in my second marriage, like it's it was it was a lot. It was a lot for me to I established the lines before we even started because we both come from other relationships. It was easier conversation. Like the only thing I care about is like what's gonna happen with with our son, right? If something were to happen. And and I think that the postnop is such a good financial thing that no one knows about. Yeah, and we have a divorce coach coming up in a couple of episodes. So we're definitely gonna bring that up uh because a lot of people do not know about it. And again, not that you're planning anything, but it gives you a sense of security, especially as you keep growing old together. You have no idea what's coming. Your parents are getting older, they like their siblings.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

We have yeah, we have provisions in there on how we handle people asking for money, how we would handle an elderly parent moving in. I mean, you could here's the thing when you get married, you have a prenup in place. It's whatever the state that you live in decides.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

So you already have to have a prenup for you. Did people why don't people don't know that? Yeah, well, because nobody talks about it.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

But you have a prenup. If you are married, you have a prenup.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

A paper with the state, you didn't read, you don't know what it says. Nobody read that paper. You have a prenup. So you can make you can make your old prenup, or you can just take the standard one, which is just writing your own rules. That's all it is. And this will come on the episode for divorce, but news flash, it typically favors men more than women. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yeah, and if you go about it the right way, if you go about it the right way, it's you writing your rules together, and it's you finding out what's important to each of you. And I we always laugh. Sometimes we go down the the um reality TV show Rabbit Hole or Love is Blind or things like that, and the prenup comes up and it's always this one-sided conversation, and it's very, well, I want to protect what I've built, which yes, that's that's obviously an element of a prenup or a postnup. But the way you go about it is really, really important. And we did multiple episodes. We actually sat down with our family law attorney to learn about prenups and why they're important. And the reality is, is we are in our prime earning years. So yeah, a radar was not prenup was not on our radar when we were in our 20s because we were broke. We didn't have anything. But the reality is, is right now is when we're earning the most, we're very likely ever going to earn. So protecting what we're earning now is what makes the most sense. And so having that conversation about protecting you, protecting me, what's important to us, and writing our own rules, that was for us, it was a great process. But obviously, we nerd about nerd out about all things. But I highly encourage people on the Sugar Daddy podcast, we did multiple episodes. We even have an episode explicitly talking about all the things we put into our personal prenup. So everybody always wants to be a voyeur and see what's behind the curtain. So we really just opened up the curtain to talk about exactly what's in ours in our postnup. And we hope it helps people because it really it's protection for both parties, and it's you writing your own rules and not letting your state decide. So I love that. Be a team, but write your own rules.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Yeah, and back to that breadwinner. Uh so I thank you for sharing so kindly. Like for me, I had an opposite reaction because I had an opposite thing happen for me. So I I've been the breadwinner and make more my entire life. Uh, and I was a single mom for for a couple of years. So I always tell people it was me and my bank account. That's all I could rely on, right? Like that was it. So when I enter a relationship with someone that made more, I went through that identity crisis of hey, who am I if I'm not a provider? Right. Like I got so much pride in being a woman that provides, that brings income and that takes care of my children. And the way that I know how to take care of them is getting them the first. That they like and the stuff that they like. Like that is my advice, right? Even now when we're doing our financial meetings together, me and my partner, which by the way, this is like such a great thing that we're doing now at the beginning. Yeah, he was like very like he he works on this. And for me, it was like trauma induced. Like, what are we doing? Why, why, you know, it was very much that way. And what I will tell you is for me, it changed. It changed. I'm grateful for it, but I I'm also like aware that it was something that I had to change my mentality. And to your point, it's community, right? Is this community pile? And whether you're the man or the female, you can be like, well, I make more, so I'm gonna buy the $10,000 couch because it's my money. That's not community. That's you know, you making ad hoc decisions. Jessica, I could talk to you forever and ever. You have given us so much. Is there one thing you will leave our listeners with that they can do today that could make their lives easier?

Stop Consuming and Start Acting on Your Finances

SPEAKER_02 45:01

I would say that there's so much really good information, especially tailored towards women out now for finances. It's not too late. You're not too old, you haven't missed the boat. But I would urge you not just to consume podcasts like this, but then to actually act, right? Open the high yield savings account, get rid of your high interest credit card debt, make sure that you're getting your company matched for your 4K. Actually take a step, get rid of subscriptions you're not using anymore, or canceling that free trial you signed up for a month ago that's now no longer a free trial. Whatever it is, one little baby step a week. Act. Do something with the knowledge that you're gaining and just know that a little bit or something is better than nothing. I think that's really.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

I want to say thank you for that because I'm gonna leave with one tip as we wrap this conversation. For me, life-changing tip was uploading some of my bank statements to a private AI butt. And I found out all the subscriptions that I was paying for that I did not even know existed. And also a lot of different things and nuggets here and there. But again, the word private and secure is very important as you do this. Um but again, if you have credit card months, your information's all out there anyway.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah. And I'll add, we use Monarch money and we have a 50% off code for the first year. And it's beautiful. So if you used to use Mint or any kind of account active, yeah. So these are a lot of the same people that created Mint have now created Monarch. Beautiful user interface. It's not free, but I can send you our referral code. But it's beautiful. You can link all of your accounts as an individual, as a couple. You can designate which account belongs to whom. It'll give you your net worth. You can add your properties, but it's a really great way to see that financial picture of what's going on, your cash flow, your income, your assets. And then it'll help you create a budget if that's what you need to do, but you can't do any of that without visibility. So it gives you the clarity and the visibility of those subscriptions, recurring costs, all of that. So I love a user interface. Like I love a pretty clean.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

I love to. Yes, that's me. Send us the link. We'll put it on our on our comments. And I will say this. I had a leader that once told me you can lead what you don't know, right? You can't change what you don't know. So this is goes for finances too. You cannot change your current situation if you're not fully aware of the reasons why. Exactly. You might be you need to change your relationship with money, or it might be uh that there is some that your job is not paying you negle enough. Please negotiate. I love it, Jessica, because that's important. And more importantly, if you're not making what you need there, go somewhere else. But your habits will follow you wherever you go.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

And they have financial therapists for this. So if you are in your head and you've got a lot of like head junk, as my husband likes to call it, that's keeping you stuck. They have financial therapists now that can help you process where this is coming from and work through it. Again, we've had them on our podcast. I'm happy to make the introduction so they can be on your podcast. But there are people that are experts in helping because it's deeply rooted. And a lot of this it is, the talk that we have about money is has been with us for decades now.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Oh my God, Jessica, thank you so much. You have given such an amazing, different way of thinking when it comes to this stuff. And this is a real one for many of our clients, for many of our listeners. Finances can really drive you array when it comes to stress. And I love the conversation about the lifestyle creep. I love the conversation about post-noptials. That was incredible. I did not know that. So it was uh an incredible source of knowledge that we had here today. And I also want to give a huge shout out to Sugar Daddy Podcast. Jessica and Brandon do an amazing job at that podcast. And I have been lucky enough to live every day with someone in the financial world, and I understand how much stress it brings to people every single day. Thank you all for tuning in. Keep your boundaries strong, and we will see you on the next episode of Coffee and Coaching. Thank you.