Why Hemp is the "Trojan Horse" for THC Accessibility | Thomas Winstanley, Edibles.com

The hemp-derived THC market is moving fast, but who is actually building the infrastructure to sustain it?

In this episode of the Ready To Drink Podcast, Nate sits down with Thomas Winstanley, EVP & General Manager of Edibles.com. Thomas shares his journey from the regulated cannabis market into the hemp space, explaining why hemp is the ultimate "Trojan horse" for mainstream consumer accessibility.

We cut through the noise and talk about the real business of THC: why older demographics are driving growth, the reality of the dispensary vs. liquor store distribution models and why the future of the category relies on functional wellness outcomes... not just "getting high."

Understanding traditional distribution models is key to integrating hemp beverages into the mainstream market, a major topic in today's episode.

What we cover in this episode:

• The launch and strategy behind Edibles.com as a trusted, curated marketplace.
• Why the "Nancy Reagan era" demographic is the fastest-growing consumer base for hemp products.
• The critical differences between regulated cannabis and hemp, and why putting low-dose beverages in dispensaries hurts everyone's bottom line.
• The fight for smart state and federal legislation (including the Pennsylvania hemp beverage bill).
• Why the future of THC regulation needs to look more like the traditional alcohol Three Tier System.

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Connect with Thomas Winstanley: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-winstanley/

Website: Edibles.com

Connect with Nate Fochtman: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natefochtman/

Website: FMGStrategy.com + ReadyToDrinkPodcast.com + TheLeadersArenaPodcast.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, uh, I'm Thomas Wynne Stanley. I am the executive vice president and general manager of edibles.com, which is part of the Edible Brands family, most universally known for edible arrangements. Uh, and I started in July of 2024 and we launched our platform in March. March of 2025. And uh yeah, super start to chat all the things that we were doing and everything that comes along with the crazy hemp world.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

So let's let's jump in with like an initial cloud level for everybody, kind of like what is it that you guys do? And I and I I received your package and stuff like that. So I got a really good snapshot, but that way we can transcend that for everybody else to understand what it is you do and and what role you serve in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah, so I edibles.com is a wholesale marketplace for hemp derived THC beverages, gummies. And, you know, when I started, what was interesting is they had this IP and they were like, we have edibles.com. At the time I was working in the cannabis industry. I'd been CMO for about six years of a one of the largest independent operators in the Northeast. Um, and one of the things that I like have I've really loved studying hemp while I was in the regulated cannabis markets was hemp is this Trojan horse to accessibility for consumers. Because of the federal classification, it can reach a much larger TAM than say one regulated market versus another. Uh and that opportunity to me was uh incredibly powerful. And what they had with this IP, they had some ideas of how to commercialize it. And there was a lot of overlap between what my strategy would be and what they wanted to do with some nuance and with a really strong understanding of the category. We wanted to fill this white space of building a very easy to navigate, simplified approach to purchasing hemp-derived products. And part of the advantage in the white space was sure, you see these products everywhere, but this is a very complicated category to enter into. And we've seen this introduction of many consumers into the hemp industry. Our job has been well, how do we bring more customers into this category? What can we do to help build a better mousetrap to bring ease these customers into this category and do all the research so they don't have to worry about it? So they know if they're purchasing from us, there is a built-in safety, trust, reliability, legality component. Because certainly having edible brands looming behind in the background, that makes it a little bit of an easier step into the category, knowing that it's not just a gas station brand or somewhere that you don't really have that trust and reliability into. And so the portfolio itself is very curated. A lot of the brands that I'm working with I knew from past lives and cannabis. And I also know that a lot of those actors, for the most part, they know regulatory, they know compliance, they know formulations, they, you know, they have efficacy in their products that have made them the leaders. And so I get to culminate all of these kind of very interesting, you know, insights within the category as somebody who walks from the outside to build the ideal platform as I see it, as a place where for anybody within, if you're a a very well-initiated consumer who knows these brands and these products and know your dosing and all this stuff, well, we got stuff for you. If you're somebody who has no clue where to start, well, we can also help you there. Um, and the last thing I'll share that I think is helpful in what that strategy was, it wasn't really about come here and buy THC. Like that's kind of that that's kind of implied by the name edibles.com. And I think part of what my goal has been is help people shop based on their outcomes that they're seeking, not based on just go and get stoned and try it and see how you feel. I think a very key education point for consumers is don't just buy to get high, go buy for a functional health and wellness-based outcome that these products can deliver to you. And I think in a lot of ways, we see this in functional beverages, where you're buying beverages based on the outcomes, whether it's a kombucha for gut health or high-lo for functional, you know, relaxation, things like this. Well, we wanted to kind of take that model and scale it broadly with this category as part of that Trojan horse. And so that's really the genesis of where this all came about. And that's what we've been really marching towards for the last year and a half or so.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

I appreciate the way you laid it out because that's that's exactly why I reached out to you all. I mean, I've been in this space for a couple of years now, and and from the service side, from strategy and things like that. And there's been a lot of opportunities of e-commerce brands and things like that in the hem space, but nothing that align with the mission of the brands that I work with. And that was always the biggest hang up. And you know, you have other ones that I won't name any other platforms that exist for wholesale operations and things like that. But even then, they're not specifically to this niche of exactly what you just said. It's not about getting high and it's not about checking out. It's not about that traditional objective that you had when you were a binge drinker or you were drinking alcohol. And I'm speaking from somebody that works in the alcohol industry currently, so I I can say this without exactly that it's a different presence. And it's just presence. And it is, and that's I really wanted to talk to you about that because this these episodes, especially the interviews of founders and different people in this hemp brand space, is that is what the mission is. And I think that's what I want to do is elevate these stories so people realize it's not a bunch of tie-dye stoners with hemp necklaces anymore. I mean, they're there. Yeah, we're with them and we're hanging with them, but that's not how the business operates.

unknown 5:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

And that's actually like I love that you brought that up because you know, my son this morning was wearing one of my tie-dyed shirts. Because like I'm the same way. I I also am like very much of a part of that culture. I've always been a part of that culture. Uh, but I also think, too, what is interesting to kind of go back to the point about alcohol. So I worked on Remy Martin's North American portfolio for a few years when I was in New York and advertising. And you know, it's kind of ironic where you you are not allowed to advertise getting drunk. Like that is not a selling point. Is it an inherent, is it an inherent insight to the products? Absolutely. But you're not allowed to sell that. And right now we're doing a lot of selling of getting high. And I I I think there's a lot of issues with that to some extent. And I think hemp is not that. And I and I want to stress that the way I see the category where I see the future of policy, where I see you divide between regulated cannabis and regulated hemp, you know, I think there are two different approaches to the consumers. And what we were really passionate about is the wellness side. I mean, I as much as I love that culture, I also know that a lot of people are coming into this category. They're not necessarily looking for that. And how do we build a category that has mass scale that is not focused on being stoned? And like, sure, being stoned is great. Like, I love it. I'm a non-school night user. We were talking about be having kids, like I got a four-year-old and a two-year-old. Like, I, you know, I like to be very conservative with my use these days. I still try a lot of products, I see a lot of good stuff, I see a lot of bad stuff. But I think what really needs the mechanism for growth in the category has to be a little bit more disciplined in the message. And I think by not having been so in the past few years in the hemp industry, we've run into a lot of these regulatory challenges. There's certainly people who do not ascribe to this value that I have. I'm not saying one value is right or wrong, but I think my personal perception of what is helpful for the category growth is let's make sure we're providing a lot of good education. And let's really use this plant to help offer wellness alternatives, which is really what is driving people in the category, whether it's alcohol replacement with beverages or uh some type of chew or edible for sleep aid. I think all of these things, I think we can do all of these things very rationally, reasonably, in a way that I think also lawmakers want to see. And so I think we've buried the lead a little bit in terms of the category. And that's where I think when we came in, and the way I wanted to build this with the team here was let's let's really be dedicated to the wellness end and let's be very focused and let's draw some lines in the sand, dowsing caps on our website, the types of products we feature, making sure that we have a blend that falls into a category, not just some distillate gummy that is 30 milligrams or 50 milligrams. Let's be very prescriptive about what that portfolio needs to look like. Um and so far that's served us well, but there also gives us room for water expansion as time goes on.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

It's um it's also interesting. Like uh over the past five years, I do a lot of interviews of like uh finding people's audience profiles and their target profiles. And a lot of people made a lot of assumptions years ago about what their target consumer was. And I think now that now that and I I like your laughter because it's true. In the last 12 months, I've had a real identity crisis, realizing that their consumer sways way older than they really thought. Yeah. And realize that the get high and and uh on your own supply thing is relevant to them because they have responsibilities in life. It's not it's actually like if you ignored the data, our consumers swing way higher than we really thought as an industry, and we need to adapt to our messaging accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Well, I mean, there and it's so funny because I talk, I I get to one of the things I love about this job is I get to talk to so many CEOs and leaders of companies. And what is always so eye-opening to me is hearing them talk about who their customers are. And one of the one of the most interesting things about this category is one, we haven't gone through price normalization, you know, at least on beverages, I'll say. Gummies, I think, and and chews, we've we've seen a little bit more of a category, uh categorical price normalization because of the ability to produce these products and you know the cogs that go into manufacturing these products. And what's what's what's interesting to me is I think part of what is driving what is this growth is we, you know, the uh Nancy Reagan era generations who have always been told no are finally getting a chance to say yes. And I think they have been deprived of these things. I think they probably, I think, you know, the boomer generation probably would have loved these products, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

We gotta remember too, Reefer Madness was drilled into their brains at a very in a very vulnerable time in their life.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, and and and I I actually give, you know, I did a presentation in Atlanta a few months ago, and I actually put up a huge photo of Nancy Reagan as one of the best marketers uh around this category because she did a great job communicating what she thought was right, which is just say no. And I think now we've we've really slowly chipped away at that perception. And I think everybody today knows somebody who likes a gummy or likes an infused beverage. And I think we're now seeing that group of individuals coming into the category. They have high discretionary income, they are learning, you know, they're health conscious, they're learning that alcohol may have more adverse implications than previously understood, they're looking for alternatives, and then we just happen to be there. And the amount of causality or correlation between alcohol decline in comparison to have beverage growth, I don't know that you can directly draw the correlation, but I think there's a causality piece there. And I think those consumers are finally able to enjoy these things that are previously have been told they are not allowed to enjoy and that they're dangerous and that they're poisonous and yada yada yada yada. And so I think this is when we get back to the consumers. I am not totally surprised, and we see the same thing on our end with our I was never, I was never surprised. Yeah. Yeah, there's no surprise in that.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

But I love to see it. You know, like I love I love I show my poker face in the beginning because when I ask them, I'll just be like right off the bat, I'm like, what's your target consumer? They're like, anybody 25 to 55? And I just laugh out loud, but just like you did, where I'm like, you guys have not asked anybody what's going on. The funny thing is recently, like we've been speaking, I speak with a lot of distributors in Pennsylvania as we're gearing up for our hand beverage build uh to get a number on it in our campaign. And the interesting thing is I'm getting callbacks now more than ever. Yeah. Because what happened in Pennsylvania was it's all a lot of DTC in Pennsylvania because we don't have proper access to market. And every single distribute or every distributor that's finally starting to return phone calls, it's because they went to the Super Bowl party and all of a sudden they took they looked around the room and they said every single one of them said more than half, probably 75% of the room was not drinking alcohol, they were drinking these products.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

And they're like, I get it now. That was literally, they were like, I get it now.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah. I mean, I I I will say, so I I'm a New England guy, I grew up in Massachusetts. I now live in Atlanta, and uh my in-laws are from South Carolina, and I've shared this, you know, publicly a few times. But what I found really interesting is, you know, I've been with my wife almost 10 years. So I've known her parents for a very, very long time. We've been married for almost 10 years. And the time at which I started into the industry to where we are today, I've actually watched them evolve with the work that I've done. Where at first it was a you're going into cannabis. Like, are you gonna have health insurance? Is it legal? Do you have a 401k? And it's like, no, like, of course, like we're good. And then, you know, fast forward to now, when I go and visit, I love to bring their products. And I say, you know, they're both doctors. And I'll go to my mother-in-law and say, Is your hip better? You know, I I brought these high C B D, low THC gummies. I know the THC kind of messes with your sleep, but like this might help you. So my father-in-law, I'll say, Hey, I have this beverage additive. You know, when you made your martini on Friday, put like two drops. And let me let me know how you feel. What is amazing is the adoption that we're seeing in some very traditional conservative states to now embrace this category. It is a really, it is a sea change moment. I mean, I think this is a very, this is a huge bellwether moment in American, an American industry that will continue to grow with this major CBG CPG oom that is basically seen to retail, you know, seed to consumer. And I think there's something really powerful about that. And I think we've, again, with policy today, uh there's a lot that's going into kind of how it's being perceived at a federal level. But, you know, my point being is that I think we're now seeing this massive influx of customers where, yeah, maybe there's still a taboo if you go out and smoke a joint and you smell like it and you come inside and that may be off-putting. But I don't think there's a part of this country today where somebody drinking an infused beverage or eating, you know, uh an edible is I don't think it carries the same baggage that it did five years ago, three years ago, maybe even two years ago. Um, and I think that's where what just excites me because I think THC accessibility is critical to the future of our country.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

The front end of the accessibility thing is a big part of mine. And I'll I want to say it with you because you are very ingrained in policy and things like that, and you see the forest from the trees. So I want to say this to you is let's talk a little bit about getting consumers and legislators and those to understand that it's not a infighting of we don't want to be in dispensary networks. It's actually just the functionality of how the consumer runs through the dosage journey. And in actuality, if you put it in an open market and an age-gated section like an alcohol network for the front end, then you have like go back to craft beer. A lot of not I would go out on the limb and say 80% of craft beer consumers became heavy craft beer consumers and early adopters via blue moon, shock top, those types of things that were the early access adopter, then you ran into the journey, and in five years you were drinking triple IPAs and you're going to beer dinners. And that would be but it started with the right blue moon, you know what I mean? Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about how the access is so important to also to lift the membership and patient quotas of those dispensaries. So if it's out there further, because people don't realize that exactly like you just says, it's a taboo. That taboo will always exist in the dispensary network because it has to, because of the restrictions and everything like that. The industry as a whole is behooved as a whole if these small products can be early adoption in a wider access market, and also the fact that they don't drive in the same channel anyway.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, I think that hits nail in the head. Uh, and it's it's ironic because what what I actually to go back, I love that you go back to the Blue Moon era, and uh I'm a mass guy. I grew up drinking Sam Adams, you know, the first real national craft brewing, you know, brewing group, and they were the ones who lobbied for hired production output to maintain classification of craft. Like, but even going back further, if you look to, you know, the repeal of the Volstead Act in 1933, when at the end of Prohibition, let us not forget that beer was state-by-state regulated. And so this is something that I don't think is talked about enough in the public eye, where everybody's like, well, this is confusing and it's hard. And it's like, well, it should be, but also we have a precedent here. And I'm not saying alcohol and you know, hemp are one-to-one, but I think history is moves in a similar fashion. And so when it comes to accessibility, what I think is important, uh having been on the cannabis regulated market side, you know, my company, uh Theory Wellness, who I worked with, when I started, we had two medical dispensaries in Massachusetts. When I left, we had 18 dispensaries across six states. You know, vertical integration, we did the whole thing. And I will tell you, the people who go to a dispensary, a lot of those people are going to a dispensary for a certain subset of products. You know, they're looking for inhalables, they're looking for higher dosing. A lot of the consumers today are not necessarily looking. They are still looking for those. There's a big subset of people who want that. But I think the consumers in the hemp category, they're not necessarily competition dispensaries. They're people who want to do alcohol replacement or they want to maybe stop taking melatonin and try CDN, CBD, and THC. They want an OTC experience for those products. You know, and those products don't really make a ton of money for dispensaries today. You know, dispensary margins today are from high dosage, uh, you know, come from a lot of manufacturing back, you know, a lot of manufacturing cogs that go into making those, those are higher margin. And so we're meeting the consumer where they are. Well, if they're looking for a beverage that's going to be an alternative to alcohol, we'll put it in an alcohol, put it into a liquor store because that's where they're going to go shop for it. And that's where we've conditioned them to shop. I think the same thing can be made, the same case can be made with edibles. You know, I think edibles align much closer to a nutraceutical dietary supplement category where there's not the FDA approval to say that this is going to solve your sleep issues, but it may influence it in the same way that magnesium or melatonin may. And so I think you have to build a regulatory framework that meets the customers where they are. You know, I we were chatting about the Philadelphia or the Pennsylvania discussions on policy. I think putting that, those, these products into a dispensary is actually going to be harmful to the dispensary. I think it's actually going to undermine their bottom line, having to buy wholesale products that are going to be, you know, they're they're treated very differently. You know, wholesale. Six of the space and storage needed. Yeah. And, you know, beverages, you know, obviously you have a major storage input requirement. Um, you know, just a quick story about beverages. So we were my last company, we were one of the first beverage manufacturers on the East Coast in the regulated cannabis market in Massachusetts. So Mass was the first recreational market. We were like second into the market by like a week. We built an in-house canning line. We developed our own products and recipe formulations. The brand's called High Five. We sold a million units in the first six months. And the first problem we had was oh my gosh, dispensaries are not built to store palettes and beverages.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

And that was like they need they need deliveries like once or twice or twice two to three times a week.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

And that's that's a huge problem. Yeah. And and I think, you know, when I look forward to today's market, yeah, it actually makes a ton of sense for tier three to have some involvement in that. You know, and I think the same thing can be said with with edibles, you know. I think in the same way that you can go online and order supplements, I think you should be able to buy, you know, uh CBD, hemp and used, gummies over the internet, you know, beverages don't really make a ton of sense because, you know, I'll tell you from somebody who runs DTC that has beverages, that's not a great economic business. And, you know, so I think there's this consumers want to shop for these products in the places that they're used to buying, you know, comp products. Dispensaries don't make all their money selling low dose products. They make most of the money selling high dose products. That to me is the bifurcation of Breach. A lot of the people that are 55 and older, they're not necessarily going in to go buy high dose products. Sure, you can make a case that there are some people of like everything. However, at the end of the day, they want to go buy these things where it's Convenient for their lifestyle. If they want a package of wild wana camino sent to their door once a month, great. And they may want to grab breeze or can or cantrip at the local grocery store or at their liquor store where they're buying wine. And uh just this last week at WSWA's national conference, you know, there was the CEO of uh uh Total Wine who was saying, you know, this category isn't cannibalizing, it's actually melding, where it's not like people go in just to buy hemp beverages, they're buying hemp beverages with Coors Light or Chardonnay or whatever it is. And so I think we're starting to get to this place.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

The new consumers on that is a key piece as well to his quote. It was like, I forget what it was. 30% is like where they're going, is the 30% of the consumers who walk in the door going to the cat gondola. And then out of that 30%, 60% have never walked in the door before, or something crazy like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah. And and again, like I think for me, it's like a half-of-least resistance, and it's all based around the consumer. You know, I think as soon as, you know, I've talked a lot about this, you know, doing press interviews about policy, but nobody wins from prohibition at this point. You know, nobody is going to have people are so reliant on these products at this point, and it's so indexed in modern society that there is no step backwards that doesn't cause some very material consumer health issues.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

And then it's a it's a saving grace too for these other businesses. And I've I've I went through New Jersey and interviewed about a hundred different retailers a couple months ago, and I wanted to know like how much they're selling of it, what their ratios are. These guys are giving me 20 to 30 percent of their revenue is being drawn out of hemp beverages. And then my last question that made two of them break down and cry in the middle of me face-to-face interviewing them was what would you do if this disappeared tomorrow? Yeah, that just you know, and honestly, I what we're not realizing is while some places like the media wants to spin that alcohol is against cannabis. Maybe the manufacturers are in some way that we can talk about, but it comes down to the trickle down of the tears. Every distributor I speak to says this is a life-saving opportunity and a golden egg for us, and every retailer says exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, and and I think part of what has been very interesting about the hemp industry is if you look at going into let's just say you make a beverage brand and you want to go to dispensaries, uh, that is incredibly capital intensive. Like you need to get a license, you need to get copacking agreements, you know, even if you make five milligram drinks, trying to compete in that channel is super difficult. And, you know, I kind of alluded earlier to we kind of are curated brands, like we have all the big names. So what I get most excited about is as I started and I said, okay, I want all the cannabis adjacent brands because they have good total adjustable market share, they're established, they're also less compliance risk. You know, the kind of the second portion of this then became very interesting to me about all of these other brands that are hemp native brands that have made uh absolutely incredible products. And when I look at what Breeze has done, you know, Aaron is an interesting guy. And I think what he did was brilliant. I even with can, I remember the first time I had a cannabis-infused beverage that was can. And I remember sitting out with a couple of friends and I was like, hey, you guys want to try the weed drink? And they're like, Whoa. And I was also like, whoa, this is crazy. And as soon as it touched my lips, I thought, this is gonna change everything. And Hemp has created this entrepreneurial network of brands that are so native into the space, who have, you know, one brand I talked to quite a bit, they basically went to uh all these liquor stores themselves and they hit the pavement and they gave samples and they fought for their first, you know, their first, you know, uh wholesale agreements themselves. And, you know, and that's really hard to do in alcohol today. It's really hard to do in regulated markets. And I think part of the blossoming growth of the category has come from this really strong entrepreneurial spirit. And a lot of these great companies that I talk to now, not only are they making these products, but they are working directly with farmers who are making the biomass. They are investing in those farm ecosystems. This to me is part of what I think makes why those numbers are increasing, because these products are terrific. And when I came into all of this, I had an idea of what a gummy was and what an edible was. And in the last probably year or so, I have tried so many uh form factors of shoes, beverages, beverage additives, large formats that have really changed my institutional knowledge of THC application. And that to me, I think benefits the consumers in so many different ways where there is a there is a point of entry for everybody from form factor dosing, cannabinoid blends, and not to just make it all, you know, rainbows and sunshine. There's also a lot of bad stuff out there, too. Like, don't get me wrong. Like there's a lot of stuff that I fringe.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

And off of what you just said too, it's um those native brands, they went out and they dug the pavement and did all that for them. And and I did it alongside of them for the past couple years. And then the interesting part is there's a two, there's a there's another split there where it's bad actors, and then also it's brands that are native in the space understood how to create beautiful products, but then the world of wholesale distribution and shelf velocity and go-to-market strategies is so foreign. I feel like sometimes that's stunted bear growth sometimes, because then you have to find outside services, and then you get burned by then there's also uh bad actors in that world, and it's like it then becomes a ripple of stunted growth and velocity. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

And and I think part of where we're trying to, I think there's a lot of right sizing right now around this is you know, I I think the embracing of the distributor and wholesaler networks have been powerful. I mean, even in I would say 2025 was the year of wholesaler wholesalers have entered the chat, if you will. And I think that's been a really positive thing because, you know, we're actually opening a retail store here in Atlanta, the first edibles.com retail location. Well, that's awesome. Yeah, and I that was something that I was really excited about because having worked on, you know, almost 20 dispensaries, like I kind of have this idea of what I want this experience to be like. And uh getting connected to our first time we're working with distributors is really awesome. Of like, oh, I have this menu of things I can choose from. The prices are really good, you know, the service levels are really fantastic. And, you know, and again, I think the more doors we have seen open up to these products, you know, the more we're gonna index further. And I also think one of the values that I would argue beverages have over edibles is yeah, tier three system has a lot of the fail-safes. Um, but I also will caution too, there are also a lot of independent retailers who do not have liquor licenses or alcohol licenses. And I will say, from my own personal view, that's a delicate balance. I, you know, I think DTC is nice to have for brands. You know, I know certain brands want to keep DTC. I know some distributors and wholesalers and retailers don't like that, but I think, you know, there's got to be some form of compromise. I don't know if it's a necessarily like maybe it's more like a wine that you can import and sell direct to consumer. I think there's a lot of this stuff that's got to wash out in the next year or so. And maybe even not in the next year, maybe the next 10 years we have to figure some of this out. But I do think there's there's this very interesting relationship developing currently around does this category, does this category evolve into a landscape that continues to preserve the safety and equity of what people are looking for? Um, and it's wild to be right in the middle of it because I love I love beverages and I love edibles. And so there's we're kind of right in this crux of we look at our business every day and say, what might happen and what maybe we have to do. And I think everybody's going through that.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

It's one of the I'm glad you brought up the different channels of distribution because it's one of the things in our our in Pennsylvania that we have where uh currently like our products are distributed through a company called Barback PA. And so they are daily for higher subset of the alcohol industry because of the different laws that have come through, they've needed to build a sub-support for in-state manufacturers. So then they were able to realize, okay, we we have everybody can buy hemp beverages that's not an alcohol establishment in Pennsylvania. So that's where our laws are reversed right now. We're trying to reverse the law. Um they're gonna get grandfathered into it where they'll be able to support the non-alcohol establishments who are also compliant and have a hemp beverage permit as well. So the hemp beverage permit will go to any retailer that is compliant with the policies of the low permit.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

That I mean, and honestly, I think that's the smartest regulatory approach. You know, I always say it's tier three and it's tier three and independent licensure for hemp specific businesses. That to me makes a lot of sense. You know, if you have an alcohol license and you have a liquor license, you don't need a hemp license, or maybe you just need to fill up, check a box. It's just a bolt-on, yep, exactly. And then for all the independent entrepreneurs who are running sober shops or things like that, you know, the rise of sober shops can't be underscore either. Um, and I think you have to be able to preserve both parts of the market, and I think that's an important part. You know, DTC for me is like that's a big part of our business. I don't think necessarily, you know, am I betting big on DTC beverages in our future? Like maybe not so much. Like it's really hard for us to compete directly with well, just from the logistics of weight.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

I mean, I've been dealing with beverage 12 on 60 cans my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Like it's like it's crazy. But I I that being said, I actually still order can cases like once a month. Like when their cranberry sage dropped, I was like, I immediately bought two cases of it because I love that product so much and I want it.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Um it's a it's a balance of hybrid that every brand needs to have. They need to have the DCC for those special pocket markets, but also we need to have opportunity of access to market at scale and then directly to retail. I think that's the one big thing, too, is with our bill, is uh some of these states like threw in those kinks where it was like no outside shipments into the state. And that's a big thing that's not in ours because it's like the only way this category accelerates is through education and exposure. You know what I mean? And like that's the only way it works.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah, and and I will tell you what is what is really heartening about all of this is when I go lobby in DC and I talk to you know, Senate leaders and staffers, you know, back, you know, in July of last year, it was like, yeah, we're kind of aware of this, but can you educate us? And then I was back in September and they're like, Yeah, we've been following this. What are the updates? And now, you know, I was there back in uh probably January. Yeah, and it was back to them now, and they're like, Okay, tell us about the bill, who's co-sponsoring it, how can we help? And what what I I I continue to see this broader movement, and even today, like the New York Times just dropped out and not bet about this. You know, that was awesome to see. Like I was very excited to see something come out from them. And then like three days ago, they published something about cannabis and like a cannabis problem. And so, you know, I think you know, those two pieces from the New York Times is actually like the perfect uh it's like perfectly symbolic of like what marks of confusion there is and what level of education that needs to continue to occur. And we want to help educate on these things. I mean, that's part of what our goal is. And for states like yours, with Pennsylvania going through this, you know, really good sim, you know, very symbolic of the regulatory bills being you know brought forward. Yeah, like the dispensary thing, like that's a little crazy to me. Like I get it, yeah, but it also shows that there's a lack of understanding of like what what these things are and how they need to be treated somewhat cautiously, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

It is. And and when you package it the right way, the way lawmakers like to hear it, and you talk about revenue and taxation, the easiest parallel that I give them is like, because I lived it from you know in the in the craft beer boom. You look at Pennsylvania as one of the top producing as well as consumption states for alcohol, especially beer in the country. Even if you just broadstroked a percentage of that that would become hemp beverage consumers on a regular basis, makes the state one of the top in the country as far as potential potential revenue in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah, I mean, and you I I mean, again, I think part of what will be very interesting is, you know, I think a lot of these brands, like I'm looking at a five to ten year plan with this group. I am not looking at like the next year or the next six months. I mean, I am obviously, but like when I what I am building towards is what does scale look like in this category and what do we need to get to to get that level of scale? Because we're in the snowball effect. Like we have momentum. Unfortunately, we have some pretty terrible bills that have been passed in the CR, but I also think there's a lot of there is a lot of uh there are a lot of very smart people and there's this coming together of alcohol hem. I think cannabis is also coming on board to some extent too to try to create some preservation. But it's a it's a very fragile discussion at times because you know, I've had times where I'm like, is alcohol trying to get rid of all of us? Like, is alcohol gonna kill us, or is it like cannabis gonna kill us, or is it, you know, who's the next threat? I've learned in the last probably six months or so is to say, no, actually, we all have to find the alignment here, and we all have to play within the margins of comfort to determine policy. And even though I'm edibles, I still talk to a lot of the beverage trades. I'm really close with folks on the beverage alliance and Kama, you know, I we I try to stay in parallel because I don't think anybody wants the other one to go away, especially in ingestibles. Like I don't think alcohol is trying to get rid of gummies or or edibles or chews, but I don't think their focus is there. And my point is always like, hey, we support what you guys are doing, just don't throw us out with what you are doing. And we're gonna do the same thing. Let's actually be, let's work together because even the bill frameworks that are coming out at the federal level are all encompassing that include ingestibles, they include topicals and things like that. This to me is progress. And it's the first time with the Gariffith bill, if you're familiar, it's the first time we've had a comprehensive federal policy around hemp consumable products. And that's powerful. You know, the only one that exists at the cosmetic.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

And that and as from a state-by-state thing, like especially too, like certain states, it's not going to be able to come in at the same time. And that's just the the infrastructure of the ideologies of those states and the way that they govern that some some of these states, it's gonna have to be a phased approach of beverages first, break the door open, and then the gummies and the other stuff can come in.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

And I think that's also causing that friction of like feeling left out, and you know what I mean, when really it's it's not, it's a systematic structure issue we have from Yeah, and I I I will tell you, like I I talked to I have great friends on the beverage side, and I have a really good friend who I I won't name him now because I don't want to put him out there, but you know, he got this pretty significant win in a major city, and you know, he and I have had so many very respectful conversations about hey man, don't just go for your thing. And he's like, Well, don't you think just my thing is better? And I'm like, no, dude, let's do this to like and I will tell you, like, I think that's how we all have to approach this discourse of like, I respect why he wants this thing. He's a beverage guy, he's got a beverage brand, an incredible beverage brand. And, you know, and I think this is where I don't ever take offense to what he's doing because he's trying to do his business. Like, I think that's fine. Um, and I also think it's incumbent upon people like us to continue to try to get both covenances and be open about what covenants we want for regulatory and recognize, you know, when this all washes out, I think we'll all be okay. I gotta keep telling myself we'll all be okay. Um I I think we genuinely will be, but I think there's not it's not without a lot of pain. And again, I go back to post-Volstead Act until the 1935, you know, federal liquor bill, alcohol bill was established that they created a regulatory framework. And, you know, again, I think if you have a beverage that's available out there that's five milligrams of THC, you should have a gummy that's out there that has five milligrams. You know, arguably I would say, you know, there is a there are health and wellness outcomes that come from gummies and shoes that you don't get from beverages. I don't think that matters. I think that's also just better for the market as at all at large. And I think one of the realities is if you do get a you know, if you go beverage only or something like that, you're gonna have a biomass issue. You know, and that's the other thing. Farmers are still gonna get hurt by that. You know, that's that's a reality. I mean, you know, 60%, 70% of the market are edibles today, you know, 70% of biomass is for that. And let's just say, you know, 25% is for beverages. Well, what's still 70% off the table for farmers? Like, and so, you know, all of these things, there's no right or wrong at this point. It's just what kind of discourse can we have to get what we all want. And I think a lot of the people we associate with and work with are, yeah, low-dose ingestible products are genuinely pretty okay. So let's try to get that worked out. And I think it's coming. Um, not without continued state-by-state battles that like I'm constantly on the lookout for. Like, okay, who's up next? Okay, it's Ohio, okay, it's New Jersey, okay, it's Pennsylvania, okay, it's Indiana. I mean, it's just gonna constantly swirl. But we need a federal, we need federal protection to give state-level regulators an opportunity to take a breath, not make rash decisions, and let us get more cohesive policy that will set us up in the future.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

No, you're exactly right. And for any brands out there that are in the beverage space that don't have gummies or flour, even if it's nothing else, it's what the everything we just talked about of like meeting consumer where they are and realize that not your consumer doesn't ingest everything the same way you do. But also on top of that, speaking back from a marketing and PR standpoint, uh when you get to retail, you're gonna realize the more touch points means the more brand engagement, which means the more stickiness to your brand. So if you can be in three categories in a location as opposed to one on the shelf, it increases the opportunity for your customers to be there.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, and I I think it's the same thing with cannabis too, right? So, like for regulated cannabis, if you have a mass market that is now being exposed to adopting THC products more universally, that's only going to help the long term where you have bifurcation policy around THC milligram doses. Right? Like this to me is having been on both sides. You know, the future to me is we're not talking about hemp or cannabis regulation. We are talking about THC regulation and thresholds of dosing standards, packaging sizes. You want X, you know, you want, you know, five to ten milligrams, get it, you know, most traditional places. If you want something stronger, go to a dispensary. And, you know, I would argue that those products are far more intoxicating in some ways at times than most of the stuff that's in a liquor store in terms of have beverages. Um, and I think that's really where it's like, yeah, like we all we all have to look at the roadmap of the next 10 years. It's like, yeah, it's THC regulation, you know. And for cannabis companies who are not who are vertical or make products, for them not to be in this space is crazy to me. You know, it's like you want to extend your brand equity, you want to have more offerings, you want to pad your bottom line. It's not crazy expensive to take pre-existing formulation and swap out your you know, biomass formulations of THC oil from him. If you already know how to make it everywhere else, then that's a very easy step to extend your brand. And so, you know, I get all these, I get to have all these discussions with brands and you know, talk to cannabis people, you know, THC 8 flower people. I'm gonna talk to everybody because I think it's really good that we have these very tough conversations because when the rubber meets the road, we're gonna all have to make decisions.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah, it's um I've been averaging the past two months about 10 to 15 founders in the hemp space uh a week on conversations between episodes we're doing together or just strategy conversations. And um, I think you nailed it on everything. So I want to kind of I'll I'll close out on this is that you have a flawless record right now as far as this conversation. But I also want to let you know that while we talk about it and everything like that all day long, I don't think it's talked about in the way we just did. And I want to remind everybody that Thomas and I have literally never met. We've never shaken hands. There is there's no script, there is no agenda. And I want to like I want to let you close out as well. Uh, but first I just want to remind everybody that like Thomas, the the cojones and the courage to come on and in this crazy world that we're in, but also to have the trust with your story and your business story and to give that to me and share that with me today. Like, I I need publicly always let you know that I really appreciate that and the courage to not have questions and to come on because we do get a lot of rejections of our invitations because people don't want to come on and they want to be prepped. So uh I really I commend you for that. Yeah. And I'll in case anybody was asleep or disappeared or was out of the car, just give them uh give them the website and and kind of where they can find you guys.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah. Uh website. Well, first off, I appreciate that, Nate. Uh honestly, I would much prefer not having, you know, tons of prep time on something and like to keep it as organic as possible. Um, but you can find us uh very memorable. Edibles.com is our website um where we uh have beverages we have um uh chews we ship to you know 35 plus states across the U.S. and um really happy to be a steward for this category and I will just close by saying I'm rooting for a lot of brands whether they're on the platform or not on the platform. I'm rooting for the category. I'm rooting for the people who are putting in the hard work here and um I'm also doing everything in my power you know to keep it alive and um you know I appreciate you Nate reaching out taking the time glad you enjoyed our care package. Um so I'm still I'm still cruising through it.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

I've still I have to take it in in doses but I'm loving where I'm what I'm experiencing so not to mention my big ass head that hat was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

So oh yeah oh yeah awesome I'm glad I'm glad you liked it.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah that was uh yeah always I you know what like I'm like are people gonna wear a hat that says edibles.com on it like I don't know I do I do on the weekends so and I get a lot of looks from people but I'll say it I don't I do a no sponsorship so this is an organic conversation but I wear it. I'll tell everybody I do wear it.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Oh I appreciate it. Well Nate it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and uh hopefully we can touch base again in a couple of months once hopefully dust settles and uh good luck in Pennsylvania. I know you guys have a have a big run ahead of you.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Absolutely and I'll send you some emails with some next steps as far as the episode goes and all that stuff but I want to thank you again and kind of closing out for everybody uh we live in this beautifully destructive world there's a lot of opportunities but the biggest thing you can control is not being in a piece of shit out in public. So look a stranger in the eye as you're walking down the street hold a door for a stranger male, female German shepherd it doesn't matter and ask the stranger how they're doing today and actually pause and wait and give a shit about what their response is. So thank you again Thomas for your time today and your courage and uh everybody just keep being good out there and put those positive vibes out of the world.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Awesome. Cheers. Alright you have a good rest of your day thanks buddy see you late