The Real Hemp Story from DC | Dwayne Carson, Founder & Principal of Carson Consulting

Dwayne Carson is the Founder & Principal at Carson Consulting and one of the few people working the hemp beverage issue from inside Washington every single day. He sits three blocks from the Capitol. He spent more than a decade on Capitol Hill, moved through healthcare, then spent years at the wholesale level of wine and spirits before turning his full attention to the federal fight over hemp beverages.

This conversation gets into the part of the story most brands never see. Congress passed language to close what they called the loophole, then attached no money to enforce it. Dwayne explains why that single fact pushes compliant operators out of the market and hands the gray market more room to grow. We get into the perception gap on the Hill, the alcohol industry sitting on the sidelines of its own best opportunity, the three tier distribution question, and why a single mother at a town hall is the outcome every member of Congress is trying to avoid.

Nate and Dwayne had never met before this recording. No script, no agenda, no questions on the page. Just two people who have spent their careers in beverage talking straight about where the category goes from here.

Connect with Dwayne: carson-consult.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Dwayne Carson, principal at Carson Consulting. You know, one of the big things for me is I've been around, you know, wine and spirits pretty much all my life, but really a focus over the last five years. Uh spent about three and a half years at Wine and Spirit Wholesalers, uh doing their outreach, meeting with a lot of the wholesalers, meeting with a lot of suppliers, uh, taking up issues that are important to the people in the industry. And then about two and a half years ago, uh the beverage, hemp beverage was really brought to my attention, uh, how it has grown in the last seven years. Uh, and so over the, I guess over the that time, it's just been understanding, educating, and seeing if we can find a pathway.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Exactly. And I'm really excited for this conversation because you and I both see the entire industry uh as a whole, and we kind of have our feet in both, all the different categories. So that's a little a lot more exciting to have a conversation like that with the legislative part as far as what's going on. Um, I just got out of the hemp beverage expo last week in Austin, Texas, and uh there was a lot, you know, roller coaster emotions there. So, kind of where where do you I'm not asking for a crystal ball or anything like that, but in honesty and all this, kind of where do you see things going? And and you're located in DC as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yep, I'm located in DC. I'm about three blocks away from the Capitol. Uh, I will say when I got into this issue three or four years ago, there was a lot of grade, there was a lot of education that needed to happen. There were a lot of members who are like, I don't really want to deal with this. Um, I would say over the last eight months, you've seen a lot of members who had swore that they didn't want to touch this issue, now embracing this issue and realizing we've got to find a fix. Something's gotta be done. Um, I personally feel that something will be done this year. Um, now, whether that's an extension, whether that's a regulation bill, uh we can get in that a little bit later. I I strongly feel that there's enough on both sides of the aisle in both chambers that they want to get something done or get some sort of potential extension to where they can work to getting something done.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

I agree with that. We actually just got out of the bi-weekly meetings with the hemp beverage alliance, uh, our conference call there a couple hours ago. And um, it's still, you know, it's a mix. It's a it's a cautiously optimistic, but also preparing yourself. And I saw today a couple uh different companies in the hemp space have kind of laid off their sales team, and that's always the first kind of that's always and I'm I'm particular about it being from the biz dev side and owning my own business for 18 years. I think that I'm gonna be honest with anybody that cutting your revenue stream before you uh trim anything else is always seems like the easiest one, but it's also I think like it kind of shoots yourself in the foot a little bit. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

And and I'll tell you this, Nate. I um what's been also that gives me hope is that I have spoken to staffers. Now, I will not name any staffers, I will not say offices or what time of the aisle they're on. Um, but they have said that, like, hey, I I have a hemp beverage with my husband on a Friday evening instead of a glass of wine, and I enjoy it more. Um, there's a reason why, you know, total wine uh has a section that a lot of the suburban moms really go towards. Um, you're so uh when some people think that this is an issue that DC isn't understanding, DC is very much understanding. Uh, where you're seeing a lot of members are at, they're saying, what can we do? Right. And then you and I both know this. Anything moving at the federal level takes time. Molasses. It's molasses. And I mean, I'll even go back to, you know, we fought against this for the last two and a half years before it was put into effect. And we can go into that a little bit later because I have my own problems with how it was put into effect. But, you know, we were pushing back on this for two and a half years when it happened, right? And then it did happen. And the other good thing that I'm seeing is you have members of Congress, subcommittee chairs, and ranking members of the jurisdiction of the committee with jurisdiction saying, we want to do hearings. Bring us all your ideas. We want to mark this up, we want to pass this. Um, you currently have an administration who is sending letters to the Hill saying we need to get this done. Something needs to happen. Um, and then you've got good members on both sides, but I'll say on the uh ranking member side, like Angie Craig, who are like, you know, from Minnesota, who are saying, hey, I'm I'm seeing all the bed facilities that are getting harmed, all the distilleries that are getting harmed because people are starting to hire, you know, lay off sales reps and sales forces because they see what's coming down.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

It's it's uh I want to talk a little bit before we jump into the minutia of the legislation. Let's talk a little bit about because of our positioning in the industry and and toggling both categories of alcohol and non-alk and hemp and all that stuff. Let's talk about how interdependent they all are. Because I think that where there's one thing in this argument that gets detached is everybody's like, oh, the cannabis hemp hippies over here with the tie-dye, and then the alcohol guys over here. Let's talk about how interconnected they all are and interdependent upon each other, both to help kind of let's be honest. I mean, I've been in the alcohol industry 22 years. This has the potential to prop up some losses that we have here, as well as provide a distribution sales strategy, foundational network for the hemp community when they collaborate together. So, kind of jump into your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Um, I'm going to tell you right now, and this is you and I just having a conversation, you know, with a couple people living in. I have no idea why more in the alcohol industry are not embracing this. Um, you know, uh, it's no secret to anybody else. The generation, um, not the upcoming generation, the COVID generation doesn't drink, right? You know, alcohol sales is down. I mean, uh, we we can we can say that, right? You have GLP ones, you know, a lot of people pre-COVID, let's also say that. Pre-COVID, we were down. Pre-COVID, they were down, COVID, they came back up, but then you had that swing right after COVID with the GLP ones and everything else, you know, you have the aura rings that are coming out. People, you know, and so people are looking for choice. And you'll hear me say this through our conversation all the time. Like, as long as they have a mixture of choices, I think people are relatively happy. And so for me, when I look at this, I'm I'm sitting here like, man, if the alcohol industry embraced the hemp products, right, and and use that under their brand, you know, now you're giving the consumer an extra choice, right? Um, now, again, as I said that there needs to be regulation on that side, and we can get into that and everything under the sun with TTB, uh, trade tobacco, sorry, sorry. Um, we can get that, get in that, you know, a little bit later. But I I feel like both sides can help each other, and both sides are stronger if this is done correctly.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

You're exactly right. And it's uh it's interesting too. Like uh I was on a panel last week at the Hemp Beverage Expo with uh uh Matt uh Gale Gase Gasik from uh the uh economist for the Burr Association. And I we talked about their recent report that came out from the Burr Association stating that these on-premise tap rooms that exist, the ones that are thriving, are the ones that have a diversified beverage portfolio and haven't just relied on their beer. And I think that's a hard thing. And I'm gonna pick on a couple because I've been in this business a while. It's like an ego thing, and it's like a bunch of other things where it's like, let's evolve, guys. Let's let's speak to the alcohol community. And I want to reiterate what you just said. Wait, wait, I'm and we do curse on here, so wake the f up, guys. Like it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Well, Nate, I will tell you this. You know, we've been in the industry. I love everybody in the industry on uh I will say that it's what I have found in this industry is um I would love us to move like a destroyer naval ship. Yes, and I feel like we move like a carrier, right? Um and and I I liken it to where there's the opportunity, you know, I've been around long enough in DC where taxis were the big thing, and then Uber came along and taxis didn't evolve, right? And then they kind of got taken out, and that's kind of what I'm looking at the industry. Like, there's no putting the genie back in the bottom, right? And so, and there's enough resources to be made on both sides to do it responsibly, you know, and again, no advertising sports kids over 21, you know, do it responsibly, and everybody can come out a winner. Let's all just kind of put our egos aside a little bit. That's all.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Exactly. And I and I do uh I I will I won't share the names of the offices, but when I was down in DC meeting with staffers and some Congress as well and senators, I brought up an interesting thing because everybody likes to lead with we're protecting the children, like we're we're saving the children and we're protecting the children. I'm not saying that mockingly and I'm not saying that lightly. I believe in that regulation and fully and support it all the way through and always have with 21 and over with alcohol. But where I get get really gets me in a weird way is in the last six to 12 months, and I'm gonna name these names, so I apologize if they're your clients, but it's like you look at what hell or hard Welch's grape juice, hard, you know, Arizona iced tea, hard Sunny D. We're looking at these things and and and you look at it like a very practical way. And I pulled out my phone and I showed these things where I'm like, the TTB is clear in these. Like these I've I've approved label, I've sent labels in for approval. Like I used to have what I had one where it was a tequila margarita and the font for tequila was larger than margarita, and they sent it back and made us redo it so the font was the same because they felt the consumer would get confused if it was a straight spirit or a cocktail. Yet we're yet we're passing through these things. And I don't think the practicality of that is even there where this stuff is lock and key in a smoke shop, in a vape shop, in a in a liquor store, whatever. Those things are sitting at the liquor store next to the other things. When we go to a barbecue on the 4th of July and we got our kids Welch's grape juice, because if you're buying Welch's or Sonny D hard, it's probably because you support the brand in the non-alcoholic space. They're sitting in the same cooler, they're sitting in the same fridge. I'm really at a loss to like understanding how that is the pillar that we're gonna stand on as to why we're gonna like make this pass.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, because I will I will tell you the reason, and it's not you crazy. Because people on the hill do not see alcohol and hemp as the same.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Exactly. That's that's what I wanted to hear, and I want it to be out there for people to realize that you're at a loss of perception.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yeah, like that's that's the last two and a half years of going to the hill and talking to members and having to correct correct members and staff uh who are like, oh, the weed people, you know. I mean, it's just you know, and or or you know, reefer comes out and I'm like, guys, we we use that word still? I thought that went only like 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Wait, when you're referencing a black and white documentary, you lost me.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I'm just I just remember just sitting there being like, okay, let's let's back it up. And I was like, you know, let's walk through what low dose hemp hemp actually looks like. Let's walk through, you know, how we're not advertising it. You know, uh, I will say this because he did it. Ms. McConnell was on the Senate floor last year with pictures of the Skittles that look like Skittles, you know, that were something else. And they have and it's also a scare tactic, right? Um now, Nate, the problem that I have with some of the people on the other side of the issue that pushed this is they said the things to scare people, but the legislation that they pass doesn't do what they said it was it would do. Exactly. And that's the irritation I have because and I I I now tell members and their staff this there's two things I would say to them. I say, okay, so this closes the loophole. Okay, great. We'll use your terminology right now. But if this closes the loophole, who's gonna come in front of Congress when the raids start? One, two, what black market are you guys gonna focus on? There will be a shortage of hemp. People will have to get it from another country. Is that gonna come in from China? Which is what these a lot of these numbers on both sides hey. But the above all, above all, and this is why I get so irritated, I'm gonna get a little bit wonky. I apologize. Is we passed an authorizing language. For those who don't know, you have two parallel types of bills that run in Congress. Those who authorize a project, and then you fund that project with appropriations, right? So the original language was an authorizing language, basically saying we're gonna authorize this. Their words closed a loophole. They could not pass it out of the agriculture committee. So the appropriator, the funding guy, said, Let me take that language and I'm gonna put it in a must-pass bill. You remember opening back up the government?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Crappy thing to attach it to, but we'll get there in a second. The problem that I have is the funding guy. How is this said bill? They didn't attach any funding to it. How are you gonna enforce it?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

What new funds are being attached to this legislation so you can say, now you want to close a loophole and enforce it and make sure the bad guys are not selling it to kids and not at the convenience store, but you didn't attach any money to uh FDA, TTB, DOJ, you didn't attach any money. So now what you're doing is you're having a piece of legislation that goes in effect. The good guys are gonna say, you know what, I don't want to be a criminal. Uh I'm you know, I I hate to do this, but uh, we're gonna move into something else. I don't want to lose my license. And the bad guys are gonna say, hold on. So what happens if I keep acting this way? Y'all don't have any money, y'all don't have anybody checking the stores. And so this stuff, and so that to me is what I'm saying, like they're the legislation is actually pushing the good actors out and opening up the gray market even more. And members are starting to figure that out. And that's why you're starting to see a lot of members, and I'll name one, uh, Congressman Russell Fry from South Carolina. Um, you're starting to see a lot of members who have been in the industry or who are aware of the industry that are kind of like, okay, this makes no sense. Uh, and that's a that's a good thing. I wish this would have happened last year, but sometimes it takes something like legislation passing to open up the federal government that should have never been attached to legislation to open up the federal government, that kind of wakes people up.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

It's it's also and I've said this once before, so I'm I'm comfortable saying it, it's it's also un-American in a way. And I want to say why it's un-American is, and I want everybody to understand that I'm not I'm not unpatriotic, I'm actually the opposite. A law was passed, call it a loophole, call it, label it whatever the hell you want to label it, but entrepreneurship thrives. Yes, and the last, and I got I get chills every time I say it. And the fact that we as an American society and American government, instead of doing whatever the majority of the industry is saying is here's all the stuff. We've written the bills, we've written all the stuff, we're saying regulate us, tax us, do everything. And exactly like for me, and I'm sure for you as well, yeah, treat it like alcohol. Let's treat it like the beverage side of things, let's treat it like alcohol. The rest of it, I uh I admit the rest of it is a little bit more complicated and it might take a little bit more time. But we can at least carve a pathway through the safari and machete the shit out of it with beverages and start there because we all have to normalize, just like we said at the beginning, alcohol is as it can do no wrong, but hemp can do all wrong. We need to normalize the two so they're together, and it's gonna start with a can. It's gonna start with an aluminum can.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

I agree with that. There, there's a two thing, there are a couple things I would say to you is one, you hit this so much on the head. This was the American dream. This for those seven or eight years was like the old tycoons. This was like a market was created, and this only happens maybe once in a lifetime. Where you can say, okay, I can take what I have saved up, it doesn't have to be a lot, and I can start something and I can invest in something and I can do something the right way. And now I'm seeing the American dream come true. And this is why people lose faith in their government. Because when you do that and you you didn't do anything wrong. They passed something, you did it right. You're uh being you're able to feed your family, you're able to buy that tractor, you're able to buy that truck, you're able to fulfill what you define as the American dream. And then people in Congress through a backdoor deal that they attach it to the bill to open up the federal government, snatch that away. This is why people lose faith in the government. Now, no one's telling anybody to be harmful to the government. I'm I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is, you know, as I continue to talk to politicians on both sides of the aisle, and when you explain it to them like that, it kind of hits a little different, right? And so now they will also combat and say, well, there's some bad actors in this industry, and there have been bad actors, their words in this industry for the last seven years. You know, and Nada, I will tell you the problem that we run into when we're talking to members on the hill is pretty much every member that's against it or kind of negative towards it has a story. And they have a story where they got a 25 milligram gummy, or they had a friend. They did not, I'm sorry, they had a friend that got a hold of a 25 milligram gummy and um was laid flat. You know, and so I'll even give you one you're gonna laugh. I'm not gonna drop names, but I was talking to a member of Congress whose friend is a business partner of a famous rapper from the ne, I'm sorry, from uh from the 90s. Um and, you know, he told the story of like, you know, the rapper got a gift basket, and it was a really, really hard gummy, and they didn't realize how potent it was. And you would be amazed. I mean, I'm going through my head right now. I can make I can think of three other members of Congress who have given me similar stories. That's what we have to push back against.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

You know what, you know what I told them when I heard that story the same, I hear the same stories because I'm sure they all just cycle the same stuff every time somebody walks in the door. I re I looked at them straight in the eye every time because I have no, I have no qualms, I'm in hell merry mode. Right. Like I got nothing to lose. I've been running this business for 18 years, and I don't care because I've always met obstacles and challenges with reality. And the reality is harsh sometimes. And my response to that every time is have you are you a lifetime cannabis consumer? Well, no, obviously not. Okay, are you if you weren't a drinker, I wouldn't have set a 19 or a 15% bourbon barrel aged out in a cup and gave it to you and then expected you to drive home. Right. That's available on the shelf down the street. And every time I say that, there's silence and it sucks the energy out of the room because it's the truth. Because the more we stop villainizing this industry and compare it to what is available on the shelves today, I've worked in retail and alcohol, I've had people try fake IDs, I've had things like this, I had all these different things. These bad actors exist in the consumer space and they exist in the retail space and they exist, exist in the manufacturing space. And they're in every single industry. And we're not asking to ignore it. We're asking to, yeah, go arrest them, go raid the places, but you better bring documentation and you better bring evidence that they're breaking a law, not just these PR stunts where, you know, and for example, like uh I'm a I'm my whole background academically isn't public relations. That's where my degree is, and everything like that. Watching the news, grabbing these things and putting these like things up, like they just did a drug bust, and they're putting things up while they're like Ohio yesterday had all the Skittles and everything like that. It's the same photo that they're using and circulating. And the reason also you know is because the pixelation is getting worse on the photos.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

That's what I think it's one again. I and you you hit on something that I think needs to be spread far and wide, which is we've got to start normalizing this. Yes, right. And and it does come back to that suburban mom, um, that potential employee that instead of having that glass of wine wants to have a hemp beverage, right? Um, I I will tell you that what gives me hope is I was in uh uh Wrightsville, um uh in North Carolina, and I was at a bar, and I remember seeing, as you were saying, they had all the different beers up, but they had some THC beverages as well. And I was seeing that, you know, individuals were ordering the THT beverages. And so it's normalizing it with drinking alcohol. Uh the other thing I was saying, Nate, is sometimes time needs to take its course. There are some, and again, I wish every member of Congress well, but there's some members of Congress who have been around a very long time. And, you know, it's just that stigma is just there with them. And then you see the members that are coming in, the younger members that are kind of like, oh, yeah, there's no putting a genie back in a bottle. If we're gonna do this, let's do this right. You know, like I again, I'm from Western North Carolina. Moonshine to the end, right? Um, you know, like I I laugh because like some people still make moonshine in North Carolina. But when you actually read up on moonshine, you're like, I'd rather get the regulated moonshine. You know, uh, don't really want to go blind, don't want to lose my teeth, and certainly don't want to die.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Um my family is a rural Pennsylvania, and I have some distant cousins out there. Let's just say when you're at the farm on the porch and you see the smoke on the on the holler hill, you know what's going on, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

But if that's what I go back to, and that's like when I talk to these members, and the more that you said again, the more you're talking to members and walking them through it and saying, like, hey, and I tell them, like, hey, go home and talk to your your family. Because there's somebody, whether it's your wife's mom, uh your mother-in-law, sorry, uh, whether it's, you know, uh your your uh your son's uh friend who suffers from you know um PTSD from doing tours, you know, or whether it's you know someone with MS. Like someone has a story to where this is something that they can cure them. And it goes back to what I tell people choice. Now you're right. On the bev side, that's pretty easy. I think we can we can do that. The others, I think we have to have a conversation, right? There's some good ideas out there how to do it. Now, what I am about to say is gonna be controversial, and you know, people just gonna have to get over it. Uh, the one thing That I have heard unanimously from members of Congress, there has to be a middle guy. There has to be a middle guy. And I told him I was like three-tiered and I was like, there has to be a three-tier. And I asked him, I was like, well, you know, walk me through it. They're like, if you think that we're going to pass a bill that's going to allow direct to consumer so they can order it online and ship it direct to their house. Absolutely not. And I understand the individuals who may be against that, but the thing that I got back from members of Congress is someone's got to be liable. We've got to be able to bring somebody in front of Congress if those Skittles are those things in the gray market that are being advertised towards kids, we've got to be able to track that down ASAP. And the best way to do that is to have some sort of wholesaler, some sort of middleman lined up that can not just collect the taxes and let's be honest, guys, this is the federal government. They want their taxes, right? Um, but also if there's the recall, that was the big thing that a lot of members are like, when we, if we do this and we do this correctly, just like you were saying, if you know, if Jack Daniels is saying it's 40-proof and it's 50-proof, right? And TTV finds it, you got to take that off the shelf and you got to make sure that that gets out and and you the right repercussions are made. They see the same thing with this issue, multiplied by 100. They want to make sure if we're gonna continue this market, we need to make it as safe as possible. And to have it as safe as possible, we got to have somebody that we can say, take that off the shelf right now.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

That's exactly it. And I worked uh I worked many years in in uh vice president of business development and brand management in in the wholesale world in Pennsylvania. And we've had those with Sam Adams, we had recalls, Corona. We had recalls where chip of glass came in, they didn't know where it was. You know, uh Miller Coors would have a recall, a lot of craft brands. I was a I managed 20 different, 30 different craft brands actually in the 2010 to 2017. We had recalls all the time. And it was the efficiency that out of a distributor can take care of those recalls, can get that stuff back, credit back, whatever they need to do. That I believe 100% in what you're saying there as well. I think over time, DTC, once the regulations can go, can reopen up. But initially, if that's a compromise, that's an okay compromise. Because also what it does is it allows these legacy family distributors to have, they need the green light. I work with these distributors all day long, so do you. Yep. They're family line, people don't realize these are fourth, fifth, third generation businesses. They're not gonna take their risk mitigation, it is so low. So low. Their risk profile is low. And we have to respect that because their lineage and their history. But at the same time, they've all told me as soon as that green light's lit, they're running.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

I'm enjoying this conversation because, and I know some people can be like, well, these are the legacy families, you know, continuing to get rich and everything else. And I'm sitting here like, but you know what? They bring trust. They bring trust when these, and again, I can only relate to the members of Congress who I'm talking to. When certain people walk in and say, you know what, that's gonna be under our banner, and they have a family history of 50 to 60 to 70 years of making sure that things are done right, all the T's are crossed, members feel a lot more comfortable because I'm gonna tell you what members of Congress don't want, especially going into about three to four months before an election. They don't want a mother standing up in a town hall saying that her son or daughter got a hold of something. All right. Now, again, and laid them flat, had to take them to the hospital, had to have a stomach pump, God forbid something else worked, had an allergic reaction to it. That that is a member of Congress's just like total nightmare. Because you have a concerned parent and their whole thing is, why didn't you take care of this? Right? That's what you're fighting back against. So, in a lot of the members' minds, they're like, until I can have the trust, until I can have regulation put in place, that I can pretty much as much as possible guarantee that that doesn't happen, I'd rather just close the loophole. And that's where we are.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Yeah, it is. And it's also just for I want every brand that's listening to also know that these behind-door conversations are also with grocery chains, with convenience store chains. Those that are family lineage, low-risk like type places, they're all saying the same thing. I'm not going to publicly endorse it until the law is written. When that law is written, we are clearing the shelves and bringing you in. And that is the piece that's like that's the most teasing piece, I'd say, and frustrating. Yeah, teasing and frustrating is that these places, and the problem though, is it's a cart before the horse because also you have associations I will not name. I have named them before and I got told to stop. National associations for distributors that are literally telling distributors not to participate in our advocacy campaigns. Like we have a distributor in in North Carolina. Uh regulate don't ruin NC is with Tryon Distributing, and there it's a statewide campaign that we have going on. I think we're creeping up on a thousand petitions right now. We spent zero dollars on advertising other than putting posters up in retail across North Carolina. That shows me right now, and we're getting we're gonna hit the uh amplification with paid distribution in August. Uh, when we get closer, we have a strategy for that. But right now, the organic feedback, and these are people that are signing the petition with their cell phone, their email, their mailing address. They are residents of the state saying, no way are you taking this off the shelf. And on the flip side, I'm getting the same thing in Pennsylvania because we don't have it on the shelves in alcohol, because the only law that exists in Pennsylvania is that hemp and alcohol cannot be manufactured, sold, or distributed in the same place. Pennsylvania's got some weird laws to begin with when it comes to alcohol. I've been living my whole life in it, man. It's a black. I I people don't realize that 10 years ago I was advocating and doing this to get six packs into places instead of cases. And then eight years ago, we were fighting to get six packs into grocery stores or convenience stores and grocery stores and gas stations because our government thought that if you got bought alcohol and punctured gas at the same time, you automatically were going to be drunk before you got home. Like that's literally what they would say is how do we mitigate drunk driving? I'm like, that's not the argument, guys.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Not the argument. It's not the argument. There's there's yeah, there's yeah, yeah. My uh in North Carolina, my my niece and nephew, uh, you know, when they were young, they love to report uh refer to it as the alphabet store. And my mom would be like, What are you talking about? And I'm like, Well, she means the ABC store. Yeah, that's that's a different connotation to kids than it is to adults. You guys are just hooked on phonics down there, you know?

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Oh no, it's it's it's uh it's some wild stuff. So tell me, I want to know a little bit in the back end of this. I want to know a little bit about your story, man. Like, how did you how did you get into this line of work and kind of what type not necessarily naming or whatever, but you know, what types of businesses you work with outside of this, too.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Yeah, no, I'll I'll give you my whole story because you know, it's one where, you know, I was a jack of all trade and a master of none, you know. Um went to college in Tulsa, Oklahoma, played baseball, had a great time out there, um, complained about the government so much that finally someone looked at me and was like, Well, why don't you go and change it? And I was like, that's a great idea. Um, had no money, and so uh I moved back home to Western North Carolina, worked at as a server at Applebee's for a year, saved up as much money out of Hickory, North Carolina, and then um moved up to DC, started working, um, interned, worked my served tables at Applebee's and Falls Church while I interned. And then I got to work on Capitol Hill for like, you know, 12 or 13 years. I absolutely loved it because I got to do, I got to make dreams turn into reality, you know, uh on certain things that I was very passionate about. Fast forward that left, uh, went and worked in the healthcare industry. Um, I often tell people after you work in the healthcare industry, you gotta work in the alcohol industry. Um But uh, you know, I did that for about four or five years and then, you know, really went to Wine and Spirits and kind of found my passion, you know, found my passion as far as like giving people choice. The more libertarian I become every day, you know, as I get older. Um and and then also being like, what does the American dream mean for me may be different than you, Nate, you know, but you have every right to find that out. Um, and then, you know, after that, decided to, you know, start my own firm, uh, took on a couple of clients in the space, absolutely love it because I, you know, I'll continue to be passionate about it. And also, again, going back to what we're seeing, is like I I saw the people who took advantage of the American dream and I applauded them. And I just do not like the fact that the federal government took it away after states had been regulating and passing legislation, you know. Uh, that's why I actually love the Klobuchar uh Senator Paul bill, which basically says if the states have decided what they're gonna do on this issue, they get precedence. Um, you know, and so because that's that's kind of always who I've been. You know, I don't want to tell you how to live your life, you know, and I don't want you to tell me how to live mine. And as long as you're provided choices, that's the decisions you make in life.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

I agree with you fully, man. I'm I'm an uh unaffiliated registered voter, uh, and I do say that proudly because I don't I think that this is this has gotten really wild in the past, and I wasn't always like that. Um, but in the past uh year, I year and a half, two years, I re-de-registered because of that same reason. Is I don't believe that the two-party system as it stands right now is actually embracing the libertarian, the original libertarian views, not this weird thing where it's like I do whatever I want, and if it hurts you, I don't care. No, the original libertarian view, which is I'm gonna do whatever I want, and it's not supposed to inhibit upon anybody else. And that's where we should be going. And I hope that we eventually get back there into a center centrist place. But until we get there, I think I also want to, while we're before we get off this topic, you mentioned about the wine and spirits world. I want to do want to give a compliment out, and I do want to name them the wine and spirits of America for getting behind this, ignoring everything that's going on in the alcohol industry and the distributor world and advocating for this, taking over some lobbying aspect of it, creating some educational materials for it. That's something that gave me a lot of hope moving forward in the past couple months. And it's a good bridge that we needed as well for this. Now, if we can just get if I can just keep getting nagging these beer guys, and I want to I know you listen, but you can get beer guys are asleep at the wheel snoring away. And uh at the irony is that the brewing industry is has the most to benefit from this because of the co-packing and manufacturing and distribution opportunities that exist, as well as over the over the bar.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

And and I'll say this, you know, I remember talking to Chairman James Comer out of Kentucky, you know, and he looked, um, he looked at us and he was like, you know, when I was at Wine Spirits, and he was like, you know, this is just members of Congress. As people who are listening, go back to what we said with the family legacies and everything else. And the chairman was like, you guys brought credibility to this issue. You know, that's not saying that anybody that was in the issue before they got involved didn't bring credibility, but again, it goes back to what I was saying about members of Congress and wanting to minimize the risk. And when these big-time guys jump in and say, hey, this is good, this is good, we're gonna do this right, we're committed to doing this right, it eases the members of Congress who are saying, okay, if you guys are getting involved, we we got it, we can do this.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Let's let's play a scenario right now for the alcohol industry. Let's say the alcohol industry doesn't 100% get on board because that's what will drive this over the over the bulk over the line. If the if all these trade associations that are being like, well, we'll jump in whenever it's legal and all this other stuff, if they jump in now and drove it over the finish line, it would pass no no if, ands, or buts. The pressure would be overwhelming for the lawmakers to not pass it. Now, flip the script. If this gets killed in dec in November and the industry's dead, what do those trade associations in the alcohol industry look at their members one year, two years, three years from now? Because nobody, I'm three and a half years sober and I've working in the industry 22 years. I got alcohol in my car all day long, it's in my house all day long. I could reach under my desk right now and grab it. I don't because it's a product to me now, but I'm an advocate and a supporter of the industry. But what are you gonna say? Because I'm not going back to drinking, I'm going back to selling it, but you think I'm gonna destroy my because me, I'm a I had an addiction and I had I had pills and alcohol, and I three and a half years ago went cold turkey. What got me out of it was this was hemp beverages and non-alcoholic beers. And I don't drink anything religiously, so somebody's gonna say, Oh, you just took one vice to the other. No, the molecule does not affect me the same exact way. I don't drink these things daily, I barely even drink them weekly. Because of my own regulations of how I live my life and my discipline and my sobriety. Now, do I drink them occasionally if I'm out at a party or something like that? Absolutely, because the anxiety and all that stuff, it gets to me, and I feel you know the cravings or whatever else in those situations. But what I'm trying to say is there's not enough talk also about that sober community that is at that say it saved my life. Like I tried to quit five, six times before because it was all in your duels and everything like that. And then all of a sudden athletic came out and brewdog, and then it started tasting good, and then I was able to. I love athletics. I love athletics. I've been trying to get Bill, I've been trying to get Bill on here forever. So if anybody's listening, you tell Bill and you gotta get back to me.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Look, you gotta you gotta tell Bill this story. I'm not gonna say the member of Congress, but we're sitting in Missouri, that's all I'll say. And uh we're we're we're driving down, and I introduced him because he took a tour of one of the facilities, and so I introduced him to athletic beer, right? And he was like, This is non-alcoholic. I was like, Yeah, he's like, this is amazing. And so he's driving around with athletic beer in his car as he's driving up, you know, runs in, you know, runs into a police officer, shows him the can and everything else. And I'm just sitting here feeling like he is so proud to be drinking non-alcoholic beer while he's driving. But like, it's a choice, right? And and there's some people who like the taste, you know, but do not like the alcohol content. And again, it goes back to choice.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

It does. So let's go back to what do you think these, what do you think these trade associations are gonna say where it's like, well, these guys are like, okay, we killed him because it was it was hurting us, but we're still we're still hemorrhaging money. Where are we going here?

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah, man, you you are well, I will only say sometimes you can put slide decks to make it sound like things are still. I mean, we we emasize the line extensions, the lines, the lemons, like on the shelf. At the end of the day, like it's it's one of those things that you bring up a very good point. You know, like sales are are going down, right? So either one or two things has to happen. Either you bring something new to the market to fill that gap, right? Or you create something with the what you got. You know, maybe this upcoming generation of um people drink a lot more than their predecessors who would rather have a diet coke than a beer. I have no idea how that happened.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Waiting five to ten years on this on this decline rate to get those people back.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

I know, but like honestly, I don't know. I I don't know because I'm I'm sitting here so many times when I have this conversation and I'm dumbfounded because I'm just like this is the easiest thing that you guys could take on, you guys could put it under your brand, and you guys would shoot through the roof. And instead you're looking at it as a competition when it's your medicine. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

You're seeing the sidelines and the dugout when you're supposed to be in the picture's mouth.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yes, yes, like this is this is and it arrived at the perfect time as far as the decline was taking place, and it arrives and instead like nah no no no, but they do not pay me, I do not advise them. Uh, for those who are advising them, I hope that they have thought that year and a half, two years down the road. But this is the other thing that's gonna happen too, and this is what I keep telling members of Congress. This issue isn't going away. And and let's just say that it closes down and they, you know, it's done in decent. Bad actors are still there. Oh, yeah, they're thriving too, because they're angry now. Yeah, now they're really are underground. You've appropriated no funds to go and bust them, right? And they all tell, you know, like when we talk to the National Association of Convenience stores, they're phenomenal on this issue as well, you know, because they want to have, you know, safe, regulated, you know, uh hemp drinks or hip available at the convenience stores. You know, and they were like, we don't allow this, those pesticides and everything else in our convenience store. And I'm sitting here being like, I know what convenience stores they're talking about, by the way. We all, everybody listening knows what convenience stores they're talking about. You walked into those convenience stores before, right? That's not the people that are playing by the rules. And so what you're gonna have is that same town hall, maybe it's a year, a year and a half, two years from now, that that kid does get hurt. And they're being like, But we but we passed this legislation to outlaw it, but you didn't really do it. You know, and again, you've seen this with alcohol. What happened when we tried to prohibit it when prohibition started, guys? My family and your family thrived in the moon. Oh thrive. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Like, but but at the same time, it's like again, has history not taught us anything? You can't put the genie back in the box. Now let's regulate it, let's do it right. You have an industry that wants to be, you know, taxed, so it is legitimate, and let's just do it right. And and I think that message is starting to grow. Uh, I'll give another shout out to uh Congressman BC from Texas and Congressman Morgan Griffith. Um both of them are subcommittee chairs, um, energy and commerce, and they're phenomenal because they're sitting here like, let's hold hearings, let's bring people in, let's mark this up. You know, um, Congresswoman Beth Van Dyne has introduced her bill. Um, I know that Morgan Griffith and VC has introduced their bill. Uh, I'm hearing that uh uh Andy Barr and company have a bill that they're gonna potentially be introducing. And the reason why I say all that is members, especially Morgan Griffith, are like, I have the jurisdiction. Let's do this, you know. But he may need more time. Um and and I will say this, Nick, what I have seen on the Senate side is the education. It used to just be Rand Paul and Friend, right? But now it's like Klobuchar, Ben, Smith, you know, on the dem side, and you know, you're getting more Republicans that are like, hey, you know, tell me more about this. I want to I want to listen more because even Lindsey Graham from South Carolina, when he was like meeting with these kids who had MS that were taking these gummies, you know, so they would stop their seizures, you know, so they didn't have seizures, it really moved him. And so that's what I go back to as you guys, you know, are continuing to talk to members of Congress, because it's election season, because they need your vote. But as you continue to talk to members of Congress, tell your story. Your story is what moves that needle.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

The um and there's been some times where uh some clips from this from our podcast is that have been uh given to lawmakers and they've requested quotes uh off of the transcripts and things like that. So I'm there I'm very happy that to be able to provide a media platform that gives those stories directly to those lawmakers. So everybody that's listening know that this, while this is a fun thing while you're driving, there's there's real there's real value that's being done with this and and being repurposed. So I want to I I also want to bring up uh like you know, a lot of these guys, and I'm I'll pay attention to the time here, but a lot of these guys are very big on the opiate addictions and the opiate problems. And there's a a lot of really interesting data that's coming out. I was at the Kentucky Normal Conference a couple months ago, uh, the marijuana conference, and there's a lot of really interesting data coming out. I'm not gonna quote it because I don't have the exact on the spot, but go ahead and look it up, everybody check it out. The decrease in opiate addiction and opiate abuse when hemp beverages are introduced in a regulatory fashion into certain states. And also the other side is for every hemp beverage brand that's out here and distributed that's out here that's saying, Oh, I don't want uh different, you know, you said about the ever let every states take care of it. I've had a lot of brands tell me in the hemp space, I don't want to deal with different laws for every state. Well, guess what? We've been dealing with that in the alcohol business since prohibition ended. And I think if you think that there's gonna be a uniform law that goes across, you're out of your mind. So I agree with you. Um let's go with uh what are some, like in the closing out part of out here in the last few minutes, what are some things here with hemp average brands, distributors that are that are maybe in the dugout or on the bench? What are some advice that you can give them as well as retailers, consumers? Is everybody is the really that's just sky's the skies the limit on phone calls, emails, tell your story, get your story in writing, get it to those lawmakers, whatever, you know, parent pigeon or email, whatever, you know?

SPEAKER_02 42:17

The thing I would say is this you know, um members are paying attention, members are are listening. And I know people have said, well, we've been hearing that for nine or ten months. Sometimes it takes a while to tell a story, right? Sometimes a member is tone deaf until he's no longer tone-deaf. Uh, I often tell people I'm gonna tell you when Total Wine starts taking those uh hemp beverages off the shelves, the amount of suburban moms that are going to freak out and call their members of Congress, uh the amount of seniors. We didn't even hit on the seniors yet. Yeah, you think you think Karen at the barbecue is bad. Wait till you take a drink. So absolutely. I I will tell people this. All right, this is some is a little DC thing for you. So in DC, when I worked on Capitol Hill, the easiest and yet hardest issue to work on was postal. Because postal, everybody, and it's like, oh, we can save money if we did this, this, and this. And they would be like, you know what, we can save money if we close this post office in Morganton, North Carolina, small little post office. You know, do you understand the wave that that member would get when they close that small post office? And so members would think about it, and then all of a sudden they would go through the process, and the blowback was so big from their constituents. That's what kind of needs to happen right here. And I think right now members are starting to hear it, and I think it's gonna continue to ramp up. Um, because I'm getting, again, emails from staffers that are like, hey, when is this going to affect again? Like, okay, not not like not for them to be like, okay, now this is the top three issue that we've been getting over the last three weeks. Right. I was again, I was talking to a member of Congress a couple weeks ago, and he was like, the hemp issue is a top two issue in his office from the email. Emails and the the, you know, I don't know if people still write letters, but from the emails that they're getting, you know, and the calls that they're getting, and that's got to continue, right? Um I think that we are closer than a lot of people realize. Um if I had to give an educated guess again, Nate, I think I don't know if there's enough time to put regulation in place because I think there's so many chairmen and ranking members that want to have their paws in it and go back and forth. Um I do believe if we do the work here in DC with the hearings, with the markups, uh, with those regulation bills being talked about and discussed and hashed out and amended, uh, I think an extension is quite possible, right? And that's what members who are with us are calling for. Give us time to do this right. Uh, because if not, we're gonna throw something together and it's not gonna work for anybody. Um, so with that being said, you know, you can stand on the sidelines, just don't cheer when we get it done.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

See, that's that's the thing that really I'm a I'm not a vindictive person and I don't hold, I don't hold resentment towards people, but I am gonna laugh in your face if you sat on the sidelines and and it does pass or passes and doesn't get banned, and then come Thanksgiving, you're calling me and you're a distributor saying, Hey, what brands you got? Right. Because that's what that's what my whole career is. That's what I'm the guy you call when you want to, when you want the pre-filter, you want the filtered brands and you want the best. You call me and I'll tell I'll introduce you to the people. Those phone calls come after you denied my advocacy campaign participation, or you have rescinded it, which of those uh that know who listen, you have uh pledged money and rescinded your money. Don't call me come Thanksgiving. Don't call me in Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

So, you know what? I'll tell you what, I'm gonna give a shout-out to uh to uh Southern Crown because I would see you know Justin Ashby and Southern Crown, uh they're looking at the facts of like mobile. Give that organization a big plug because that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Yeah, what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah, they're they've been out there mobilizing, saying whatever we need to do it, and they're you know, they're like, how do we do it the right way? Let's get it done, let's get it done right. Uh so and that that's what we need because again, when these members start hearing from the big dogs, like, hey, do this but do it right, it it does move, you know. But again, hearing from the little guys, hearing their stories does go a long way, especially during election season. That's what we always come back to, right? And so that would be the other thing I would tell people like make this an issue. Like, we're not like when you go and talk to your member of Congress or you talk to the candidates running, or you talk to your senator, be like, hey, are you gonna support uh safely regulated hemp? And if they say no, okay, now you know where they are on an issue that's important to you. It may not be your only issue, but it goes into you know your thought process of who you're gonna vote for.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

And I want to I wanna say too, like, for everybody that's gonna do this, and if this is gonna have to be the phone calls, emails, do not come with aggression, do not come yelling at people. You will get nowhere, and your email will get deleted. All you need to do is tell your story because your story matters. Tell them you enjoy this with your friends on the weekends and you decided to do this or that or whatever. Tell them what's going on. If you're a business owner, tell them how this affects your life, how it positively has affected your life. Right. Because that's the thing at the end of the day. I just did an episode uh published today with Crescent Nine, uh, Crescent Canada, one of the top brands in IRI data across the country. They've had like two or three instances where something bad happened out of the millions of cans that they sold. That's the story that needs to be told is we are always going to hit adversities and incidences in every sort of CPG product. It's given. There's a reason why there's warnings on things, it's because something happened. But we didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater because some guy burned his. We don't stop drinking coffee because the guy jumped his McDonald's cup on his lap a couple years ago. We put a caution hot on the can, on the on the cup, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

So you hit on something that I think needs to be emphasized, which is tell your story, but tell your story how you fixed it. Exactly. Right? Because that's the thing, like, okay, so all right, so let's say that something's out there, it was labeled wrong. This is what we do it, this is how we track it down, you know, like tell the story of if you're a business of how that happened. And again, invite these members to tour your facilities. These members love to tour the facilities and talk to you, talk to your your uh employees. I mean, they really do. And that to me is all of a sudden you're you're because a lot of times you can choose the emails, you can do the phone calls, but to humanize it, right? To to see, like, oh, this thing's gonna get taken away as we go into holiday season for Thanksgiving and Christmas. So there's gonna be people who are laid off. There's gonna be people who don't enjoy the benefits of a normal holiday season because I voted a certain way. Again, that hits a lot a little different with members of Congress, but I would also emphasize what Nate was saying. We got to do this peacefully because I I cannot, it it becomes three times as hard for people like me and others on the hill if the member says this person started yelling at me and my daughter, or this person was throwing stuff, or this person cussed out my staff assistant. Please don't cuss out the office. Please don't. I mean, that that's that hits a little bit hard to me, and members remember that.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Yes, absolutely. And it'll take us all backwards, and the work we put in is wasted. Uh so um perfect. Well, Dwayne, thank you so much, man. Like, seriously, man.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Enjoyed this, man. We may have to do this again.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

I'm I'm down for it. And I want to I want to tell you this too. I'm uh I'm also starting tomorrow uh sending open invites to lawmakers uh in their emails to come on the show. If you know any lawmakers that that enjoy this type of and and please let them know uh they want to come out and speak if they're in support or even if they're in opposition. I love a good debate and I love a good critical, you know, critical listening uh session as well. So please send anybody my way and uh you can copy and paste that link for my calendar um because they're gonna be getting emails from me starting tomorrow where I'm gonna invite them on, just like you just said, it's a human connection, and I'm gonna be like, I'm bringing them on to tell their story and then tell their position. And that's really what it is.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

So I tell you what, I'll do is you send me that link. I've got about five or six members of mine right now that I can shoot it to.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

Awesome, man. I appreciate that. Well, hey, thank you so much. And I'm gonna kind of go through the closing out here. I want to remind everybody there's no script, there's no agenda. This is a completely organic conversation. Dwayne and I have never shaken hands, we've never shared a drink together, we never even met, but we will be moving forward. I can tell you right now this is a screen conversation. This is a great rapid part, too. I we were jiving on that and I like it. So I'm gonna remind everybody as well. This world is a beautifully destructive place. When you're walking down the street, put your phone in your pocket, look at the strangers when you're walking down the street. When you're at the gas station filling up your cup of coffee, look to the person next to you, ask them how they're doing, shut your mouth and listen to what they say. Focus on them. And my challenge to everybody else is five minutes of kindness to a stranger every week. We talk about ROIs all the time. 20 minutes a month of kindness to strangers. You don't know what's going on. Your life might be full, you might have all these beautiful things going on, but there's a lot of people that aren't. And that human connection we're talking about throughout this episode is so important. You could save somebody's day, list them through the next month, year, or whatever. And if the worst case scenario is they decided they didn't want to be on this earth, and that moment of human connection might actually give them the hope that they need to give it another week, another month, and keep trying. So I want everybody to understand while this show is all fun and games and it's about ready to drink podcasts, and it's about drinks, it's also because drinks are the social bridge that we need in this world, whether it's water, coffee, booze, hemp, it doesn't matter, mushrooms, whatever it is, everybody's got their path because this is America, and that's the beautiful thing about it. So, Dwayne, thank you so much for having the Cajones to come on too, because a lot of people want questions, they want everything, and I deny them, and then they don't come on. So thank you, man. You know you're gonna appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

And those guys who don't come on, maybe they need a hemp drink. Sell them so they can come on next time, because this was good.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

Absolutely, Dwayne. I'll send you that email later later on this week, man.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Thanks you so much. You too.