Accountability vs. Cancel Culture

✨ Wellness in the Wavelength Episode 8 ✨

This week, we’re diving into a powerful and timely conversation about accountability vs. cancel culture in the EDM community, and how we navigate harm, responsibility, and growth in spaces built on connection.

In a scene that values community and expression, we’re asking the hard questions:

• What does true accountability look like?
• When does accountability turn into punishment?
• And how do we create space for people to learn, repair, and do better, without ignoring the impact of their actions?

This episode explores the balance between protecting community safety and allowing room for transformation. Because real community isn’t about avoiding conflict, it’s about facing it with honesty, compassion, and responsibility.

We also hear from Black Wolf Sound, who shares about the men’s group he leads and how he intentionally creates spaces for men to practice respectful, civil debate. Through guided conversations, accountability circles, and open dialogue, he helps men build the skills to disagree without disrespect, and to take responsibility for their words and actions in a constructive way.

At the end of the day, growth isn’t about being perfect, it’s about being willing to listen, take responsibility, and evolve together🎧✨

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

What's up, Hockeys? Cat and Paige here for another episode of Wellness in the Wavelength.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Today, our guest is John with Black Wolf Sound. Do you want to go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Yeah, absolutely. First off, thank you so much for having me. So excited to dive in with you guys. Yeah, a little background about me. I go by the artist named Black Wolf Sound. I've been doing music for about seven years now, but a big passion that's also brought us all together is community and diving into creating space for others and having some hard conversations and just doing something a little bit different. And yeah, I think what's led us to this point is I've thrown an event before this last January where we created space to obviously have a great time, but also um we threw an event where we had a panel discussion about sustainability in the music realm, and then also with some other panel discussions about some other things like real things going on in the world and just trying to create space for kind of difficult conversations, but to also show that it doesn't have to be like the end of the world to have these hard conversations and to try and create a fun atmosphere and just things like that. But the biggest one that I've been doing lately that kind of started back in the college realm when I was going to college, I went to actually have my degree in psychology. I did 40 hours of trauma training, became a student advocate in my college, and uh found this big passion for masculinity and diving into this experience of being a man and like what it even means. And yeah, I've always felt very different and always wait, like what's going on? Like, why are we acting like this? But I guess I'll just do it too. And uh, but then as you get older, it's you start to have these thoughts, and then also going to a liberal arts college, you start to really dive into wait, like what what's happening? And yeah, I started these men's groups to open these. It was like the first introduction to holding space for kind of tougher conversations, but I found that these conversations also energize me a lot, and so it's just been this trickle effect through the years of yeah, just holding space for like disagreement and just our experience and trying to create a safe space for all thoughts and all beings to exist in and to share their experiences. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

What an idea sharing experiences, a safe space, agreeing to disagree, who'd have thought?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Right now, isn't that crazy? Who would have thought that we could do that or that we should be?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yeah, and I see obviously how it transfers over to like our scene a lot where it's can be so violently divisive, people having different opinions on different topics, whether it is politically or just things going on like in the background between artists and fans and stuff like that. It really feels like there's been this like surge in cancel culture immediately when someone has a differing opinion, but also people aren't willing to have like real conversations, they just have like keyboard components and they're just crazy and nothing actually like changes or happens.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I know that's why I always wanted to say let's switch from cancel culture to like accountability culture, like just holding space, like we're human, like we mess up. Like, obviously, there's lines, and we'll we can get into those. If and that's something in our last men's group we talked about the difference between being a good person versus a nice person. That's like holding boundaries. Obviously, if you're being an awful person in the scene or in the world, like there needs to be repercussions, but of course, like just exiling people out of community does not do anything for the greater good. Like, you literally just push that person probably farther back into these awful habits and things that have been programmed inside of them. So it's like, how about instead of just being like you're done? It's hey, what's going on? Like, are you good? Like, why? I don't think we really leave much room for the why instead of like a like I don't care, you screwed up by we don't have time. It's like okay, what is that person doing now? So yeah, and I think that's like where these spaces have come up to you, especially as a person who came up as a man and holding space for men. These conversations come up a bit where it's it's tough, it's tough to be a man, and but just as it's tough to be a woman, but it's really cool to get these perspectives, and I don't think men have had really any space to talk about it, except for maybe on the dance floor when they're messed up and like on something, and they're oh dude, I feel so much. And I'm like, I yeah, me too, man. Let's go grab a coffee and talk about it, instead of leaving it here, and then you go back and then you just keep being you don't you're there's no space for it, and so I think that's what's led to these beautiful discussions and like deeper dives into what it even means to you exist as a man in this world and this big shift, I feel like, which is very important. And I'll so I'm so glad, like I said, I'm so glad you're wearing the Mac Miller shirt because it's like the divine feminine. I think this feminine energy was needed so bad and it pushed us in this amazing direction. And I know Katy and I talked about it, it's like it's a kind of pendulums you know, this feminine we needed it so bad. But something that was really cool that I've been hearing talked a lot about in just this kind of conversation about masculinity is this balance of you either got these very toxic, just over-the-top, like dominant men, or you got man children. Like you got these dudes that are like, I feel things, take care of me. Okay, deal, congratulations, you made it to the next level. But like, how about you go take care of yourself? Welcome to human head. This is part of the experience. Use it, fuel it, go make some art, do whatever, help somebody or help yourself, whatever it leads you to. And but yeah, and I and a lot of this con these conversations happened on dance floors, it happens at bars and just in organic ways where I'm like, wow, okay, yeah, we need to talk about this more. And so that led to a lot of these this drive for the men's groups to come back.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

How do you see like what are some of the feedback that you get from like men that take part in these like groups and stuff like that? And like how, if there are people that come more than once, how have you seen them grow? What's been like the outcome or like the journeys that you've seen of people that have participated? Because I'm sure sometimes you get people that just like pop in, but I'm sure you also have people that have come more than once, even if it's sporadically, and like what have you seen that do for them in terms of just like consistency of doing something like that? Because I do think in general, like for all people, like they go do something one time, right? Then that's it, and then they're like feel enlightened, and then they go back to like their old ways. So I'm just curious, like what that journey is been because I think it's we can apply that like generally, right? To anything people are doing to pour into their own cup.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's been the thing. I've done almost three different demographics and times of life of these things. So I think what I've found that people have taken away from it who constantly come are just I think it's more so you're just inspired and like happy that there's other dudes in the world that are like, yo, what's happening? I don't like, can we talk about this? And then they'll be able to speak your mind. And then a guy pipes up and asks you a question in a very respectful manner, like, hey man, like you ever think maybe it was you that was the problem? Like, and then there's oh damn, all right. Yeah, and then it but it's like such a peaceful disagreement, and I think that's something that we've lost. And and it's probab it's probably the whole world, but it I've noticed it just in my experience with men, it's just like whenever there's a disagreement, it's very off your chest, and whatever, dude, you don't get it and just shut down, no room for it. And so yeah, I don't it I feel like I've seen a lot, including within myself, just patience. I've seen a lot of patience and a lot of just feedback on feeling like so much better just by literally saying and expressing something and then having it like be hit, but then also in a very respectful manner be like de-escalated and then be like and then accountability. And so I feel like in the moment things are happening, but then of course, like when things are done, you usually get a message where it's dude, that was awesome, thank you so much. Like I didn't realize how much I needed that. And so yeah, I feel like it's just more so it's men are craving community very much. And I constantly talk about the club bathroom scene where women go into the bathrooms and you guys are like in there for an hour and you just be best friends, and or you just pick somebody up and you're like, Oh, do you just my new friend? And you come out of the what they're like, whoa, right on nice to meet you. But that men's bathroom, it's like you get in there, it's like just hello, like, all right, cool. I just gone, and like I'm out. And so there's just this there's this lack of connection, and I think connection comes from vulnerability, and I don't think men really got taught how to do that. And so I think that's what this is it's a space to one soberly be connected and like vulnerable. It's no dude, it's cool. Please let us know what you're feeling and say it and be ready for feedback. And so, yeah, that's at least a long-winded answer of what I've experienced with them.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, and especially just on the topic of the conflict, because I feel like, especially in today's day and age, like conflict is so like I feel like everybody avoids it because oh, what if I step on these toes? What if I whatever? And like we don't really want to actually sit in the humanness and the connection of the conflict itself and acknowledge one another's feelings on a situation and be like, hey, this is my perspective. What's your perspective? Like, how can we move forward on this? But rather, like people are, and I know, like in my own experience, like people like to avoid it. They don't want to sit in the conflict, they would rather like X you out of your life or just move on and find the next friend. And it's is that community? Like, how can we actually? And I love that you're like taking the time to create that space, especially in that sober setting where we can like you can hash things out and also just get that feedback.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, it's a I even in our last men's group was Sunday, I call it like the art of disagreeing. It's like it really is an art and like we should look at it that way, not just this like extremely oh god, if we disagree, that person's gonna hate me or whatever. And so it really is an art, and it led to this beautiful disagreement, like of these different perspectives. And that's I was gonna say there's different levels to it. If we're talking about existence, we can disagree all day. But when it comes to human rights and things like this, of course, it gets dicey and it gets very intense. But I think what I would love to see, and something I've experienced that's uh helped a lot of change in my eyes, is I think curiosity is the biggest thing you can bring to disagreement. If you would just simply ask people like why somebody comes at you and they're just on the opposite side, of course, your blood boils, and you're just like, Oh god, all right. And they were just like, Can you tell me why you believe that? And they'll go. And they and it's not even like you're trying to get them to talk themselves out of what they believe, you also are trying to understand why somebody could stand over there. That's I want to know, I'm so curious why you have been brought up in a way that you think that's correct. Because if for all I know, I'm wrong, but I would love to know why. And if you can passionately give me something, I bet we can find something in the middle here. And so I don't know, it's at least been my strategy or like my tactic to get to this middle ground, to stand on the bridge with somebody and be like, dude, we have more in common than you think, and I think that we're after the same thing, but we just don't know how to say it because we haven't been taught how to.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

And I think like also what you're talking about too is like listening to hear versus listening to respond. That's a really big issue. I think I told you, talk to you about my friend who I hope he listens to this episode around him and I are always in these situations where I'm very comfortable to agree to disagree when he's not. Like I can tell that when we're talking, he I can tell that he's just responding. He hasn't really heard what I'm saying. And so luckily, like I'm chilling, like I'm cool. So I'm just like, whatever I think it's fine that we don't see eye to eye. And I think that's the other part of it too, is like we don't have to end that. Like, I can ask you all the questions in the world to gain clarity and maybe it'll evoke like thought in that person. But everything's okay if we still don't land in the same place. And that's where I think things get divisive is when you're listening just to respond, that is basically going to lead you to a point where it is gonna become just like this atmosphere that's not conducive. And that's where people then want to cut people off or they want to shun people or they want to shame people. And it's like the point of that shouldn't have been to like someone to be right or to be wrong. It's just to have greater understanding. And then of course it's up to you how you want to place that person in your life, right? And that doesn't mean again, just like cutting them off completely unless you find it appropriate. But typically it shouldn't be that extreme and you can decide how that works with like your own inner workings and your belief system and your value system, but it doesn't need to be so divisive and so again, like going back to cancel culture to where like now someone is just this horrible person because they think differently than me. When I don't think the like point of our existence is to all think the same. Like I there's been many times where even when I disagree with someone's position, there is something that they've said that has opened my eyes or my mind to another perspective, and I've been able to learn from that. And I think generally seeing more of that where people are just open-minded, okay with disagreeing, but then also listening to hear would help that. Like it doesn't have to turn into this huge, big like argument, and you can also move on, like you can move on from topic.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, and that's the thing is like I get this sentiment of this cancel culture, like I get it where it's because it's a form of accountability, but it's the easy way out. It's cool, you've been held accountable by it's but like it's not it and it and especially a community. The reason why I fell in love with the electronic scene was because of this inclusive, like radical love, like a hippie, I'm a hippie, like I love this. Just that's what was so enticing about it. I was like, just people like, I love you, man. Like, oh my god, I love you too. And it's and so then, but then to just watch it go to just flip and just nope, bye. It's like, how about we talk to them? Like, we could hold space for this human because they need it the most right now. Like, they are messed up, there's something in their head that's not right, and if we just throw them on the island, they're gonna lose it. There, there's not gonna be any evolution here. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of just holding space and watching these like argument debates go on between people because it and especially especially in these spaces when the intention is to have hard conversation, you watch these things happen where they escalate, but then humanity come out because then they're all then it's like, all right, let's not let's talk about it. Let's not I mean then people can call each other out and be like, I think you're like, you know, let's you're acting out of emotion, you're not really like logically thinking right now. And there's time and place for both. But yeah, I don't know. It's it's been it there's been a big shift in the scene for sure, and I'm curious to see where we're headed. But I think things like this will definitely help. But I as we said, I think a lot of people are having these conversations. It's just the fact of getting out and leading by example, and that's something I constantly hear. It's just there's no there's not too many examples out there who are like, you know what, I'm gonna do it different. Let's do the hard part because it is hard work and that takes a lot of ref inner reflection and a lot of yeah, trying to figure out how to exist and everything like that. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah. Um, I know one thing that I've really noticed happening with the whole introduction of cancel culture is like there is a like a line of like where we take responsibility for people's actions, how they show up in the scene, like who do we support? Do we continue supporting their music? And versus there's also been this like like nuance of now we're starting to cancel artists because of their personal interests, or maybe it isn't even like politically tied, but it's like they might have an interest in one thing, like one thing that comes to mind is like Enzo, and he's interested in SpaceX, but now people are canceling him because of Elon. And it's are we really gonna cancel somebody over like their personal interests, even when they say that they're not tied to a certain thing or a certain idea just because of this overarching theme of like how the political system is in the world? It's like, how do we even have those conversations? And is it like does that create do we cancel people over just what they have interests and stuff in?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, yeah, I know. And that's it's seeing I think that's like the conversation. It's like we I think that's what we're stepping into is this era of as we say, like it's pendulums. We did this whole thing where it's there's no room for it, get out. And so I think now it's coming back where it's like, okay, that was a bit of an overreaction. Let's maybe like talk about where the lines are. Like, we haven't even discussed this, and so yeah, like stuff like that where it's like I don't know, that's such a I didn't know that was happening to you. It's such an interesting thing to be like, this one thing is the reason why I'm never gonna support this person. But then yeah, it does come down to figuring out boundaries, which I think is really important, but of course, who decides that? And I guess we all decide our own boundaries and what we want. But I so I guess the bigger thing would be like just encouraging people to actually think about it, like instead of just this like black and white thing, it's okay, what is your lines? Do you hold boundaries up for yourself with others? Like, where are we going to move forwards with this versus just this kind of I don't really want to think about it, it's done.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

So, yeah, and I think that also just brings light to the conversation of the difference between boundaries and standards, because boundaries are what you create for yourself to protect yourself, and like you're the person that upholds your own boundaries versus your standards are the people that you surround yourself with and what you allow in your life, and there's a difference between the two.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's a big differentiation for sure. And yeah, I think the standard is definitely shifting, which I'm super thankful for. I think all I've just seen so many people and artists, especially just being like, I don't know what's going on. This is crazy, and it's even made me step back a lot too, where I was getting deeper and deeper into it and especially self-managed too. It's oh my god, like I was like, I just want to make art, dude. I want to do this pol like this like politics thing with you where it's oh, you know them, them, them. I'm like, oh god, all right. But yeah, so I don't know. I and I guess that's I think that's like I think more and more people are having these conversations, which makes me I don't know, it gives me hope. And I think that's this is the beginning process of the shift, in my opinion. And I think that there's probably even more bigger things out there that we don't even know about. Like there's so many artists taking stands for themselves in different ways and and just being more open and out there with what they have to say. And it's yeah, I don't know. It's really to me, it's really beautiful and the direction it's going, I think, is what we've all been waiting for.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

And something else I really want to go back to that you had mentioned was around like essentially how we stump people's growth by canceling them so quickly. Because to your point, like, of course, there's very cancelable offenses, right? We're not saying that everything should just be excused and we should just overlook everything, but we're stunting a lot of opportunity for people to grow. And like, how are we saying that this is a community when someone messes up one time or makes one bad decision in their human hood, their first time in this current consciousness? We don't offer anything but like hate and shame to them. Like, we're then where's the standard for that? Because I know that there are personal things that we all go through that a lot of people don't know about, and we're acting like we don't have any skeletons in our closet. Like everybody likes to act like they don't have any skeletons in their closet and that they're better than everyone and they've never made a mistake. And like when I sit down and I think about like my own, and then I think about some of the people's like around me and stuff, I'm like, who are we to be so critical when we are imperfect? And who are we to always decide that someone isn't good enough for us to show them love to help them grow? There's just been offenses that I've seen that I don't think should be weighted as this person deserves no help, there's no direction. They like to you said this earlier too, like something is wrong with them. Something like is actually wrong with this person. And like, of course, there are people bad people, but there's also good people that do bad things. And the reasons and the why they do those is like where we should leave room to see what we can do to help them as a community. But like, we're so quick to all of a sudden be like holier than thou. And I've seen it, I've seen people that I even know do that and be so critical of other people. And I'm like, but how? Like, how are we so critical when like we Are imperfect ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, and I've been in those same shoes. I've been very critical of people. It's something I'm working on heavily in therapy, and just through all of the mirrors of my beautiful relationships around me. And it's a tough thing to swallow, but it's so important. Like we we are it's out of protection. We judge people. It's snap judgments. You make snap judgments out of protection. But but like when it comes to another, you have to have some empathy. Like you it's so crazy that nobody thinks for a second, like, why is this person behaving this way? Like it's just and I get it, life's busy. All right, I get it. But like we have to move into a place in the scene in the world in general, where when somebody messes up, you don't explode on them, you just simply ask why something I love to do whenever somebody flips me off in traffic or just yells at you at work or whatever it is, that's just you just are you good? What what's going on? This ain't about me, dude. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah, usually it's not. Usually it's not about there's usually always something in the background going on.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, and we've all that's how we I know that because I've done it too. It's like Instagram just continued the cycle on. I'm so sorry. And I because it really is this cycle, boss yells it, worker yells at customer, or or like customer yells at worker, and then it's like yells at family, and then it's just this or whatever, it's this giant cycle, and so I don't know. I think that kindness, and of course, like I've had people be like, all right, man, there's this is like a more real time than just love and kindness, but I do think that love and kindness is like one of the biggest revolutions you can have right now. And of course, you gotta be informed on what's going on in the world. I'm not saying like you just oh yeah, dude, love and kindness. But when it comes to everyday like living and people interacting, I don't know. I think that they're and especially in the scene, like when you're interacting with people and you see these behaviors or stuff you don't agree with, it's just approaching it with love and being like, hey man, so I just saw what you did. Love you, but we can't do that. Like, why are you doing this? And if you just come at it with questions, it's that's what I've learned with de-escalation, especially if we want to get into like actual situations. It's like I said, curiosity will is the ultimate tool. If there's something that feels like it's rising or there's tensions or anything, if you just come in with a hey, what's going on? What's happening? And you get people to talk, because I I feel like a lot of frustration comes from being misunderstood and and just feeling they're like, like, I'm just like I'm experiencing this thing and they don't get it. And it's okay. Did you know that? No, it's like exactly. I don't know. It's like I and so I guess that's what I mean by love and kindness. It's like this it's the old instead of like going in and throwing fire and fire, you're coming in with a little spray bottle, and you're like, hey, let's like calm it down a little bit. And so yeah, I don't know. That's been my approach to seeing a lot of stuff like in scene in the scene, just in the world to you.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah, and I think that's why like the EDM culture is also just amazing, right? Because like we all have this baseline of pleur, peace, love, unity, respect, and also responsibility, like adding that onto there because it's so important. And I we need to just continue teaching this to one another, to the next generation, and bringing that online as being the baseline of how we meet one another, and especially bringing the responsibility piece in because you can't just piece and love your way out of like being a dick.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yes, yeah, that's that accountability. It's just it's really easy to point fingers. We've all been taught to point the finger, like it's it's uh, it's something else going on, it's not me. No, it's probably you, doc. It's probably you, and you know, it's it's important to do the ask that question and to look within and be like, damn, maybe I'm stirring the pot a little around here and I need to chill it, or whatever it is. And yeah, I don't know. I I I think that it's headed that direction, like I said, and it makes me happy to have these conversations because I there's just more and more people, and I just went on this little New York tour, and unfortunately, no men showed up to the men's group, of course. But there's like five dudes signed up, and then I was like, oh, let's do it. And I was like, Oh god, no, we showed up. So we just had a community conversation, which was beautiful. But as I've traveled, I've real I think I what I've received is hope. I don't know. I can there's a lot of doubt and like a lot of things to be upset about right now, and a lot of just madness. But on these little adventures I've been on through the country and even out of country, like I've heard of so many people with this drive for a deeper connection to people and themselves and trying to understand more of what's going on, and especially in the music scene, everywhere I go, there's somebody who's dang dude, I like what you're saying. I'm like, I know I is it I'm just saying what everybody else is saying. Like it there's more and more people, and something that makes me really happy when I talk about men's groups too, it's there's always a man that comes up to me after playing a show or whatever, and is man, I really like what you're saying. Then we end up in a two-hour conversation, and he's like, Yeah, dude, like I'm in a men's group. And I'm like, Oh my god, amazing! Like, so I don't know. I think that there is this shift happening and this big like feeling of we gotta move, like this ain't working anymore. And so yeah, I'm curious to see where we end up for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

And I have to go back because I keep going back to things as you had mentioned, Paige. You had mentioned pleur, but I do, I have to be honest, like I do feel like pleur has become extremely conditional. And I think that's why a lot of people have been like blur is dead. I hear that all the time. It's become very conditional and it's been weaponized a lot. And so I almost feel in some ways, yes, we need to share that message, but we almost need to tap back into it before that because I feel like sharing something that has like honestly taken on this like really weird reality right now because of the world and the scene, it's hard to spread something that has morphed into something that is like weaponized and become conditional. I feel like we almost need to like take a step back and rebrand what that really means in a meaningful way. Because I I hear it a lot. I hear when people, I've just been in spaces like we're talking here, but like when we've said before, like we're having these small conversations where people aren't talking positively about blur because they're just like, this is like almost this blanket statement that gets thrown on things all the time now, but no one's actually like really doing it. What does it even really mean anymore? And I think there needs to be some sort of like resurrection of what it really means. And to be in order for it to be able to pass it down and to really talk about it with confidence. So I feel like right now in a lot of spaces, it's not really, it's not really, it's people being like, that's not very pleur of you, but they're not being, but like rudely saying that to somebody and like after attacking them. And but then someone I'll see someone like go in someone's comments and rip them apart, but then I go on their page and they're all like pleuring love and peace and all this. And I'm like, whoa, I just saw you in this person's comments, like ripping them to shreds. Like this brand is not branding for what you're talking about right now. And so it almost turns it into this very unserious thing, which is sad because that is what rave culture was like built on. So it's almost like, are we all talking about the same thing? And like, how are we using this language to be able to pass it forward and for it to be true and not just turn into this thing that people just willy-nilly use to basically like further their excuses or take not take accountability or like in the name of pleur? This is what is it? Because like I don't really see that happening to be like so for real right now.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

And so yeah, I think that's why yeah, yeah. I think that's why I went like the burning community route. And of course, everybody's got their opinions on the burning community, but it's I don't know. To me, it was like that plur energy where and as I got it back because it was what's it was so cool to be in this world where it's like when somebody needs help, you help. Like you know, it's like the you are there on your own, but you're also part of a community. Take care of yourself, but like when somebody needs help, you help. And like that to me was so beautiful. I was like, wow, this is what I fell in love with, this is why I go. Is like this, oh, like what's going on? Yeah, we're good. And but I and I mean I even remember experiencing like the pull out the window when I was first going, where I went to the gorge for Paradiso back in 2017 or something like that, and I remember that's all love and all this stuff, and then it's like everybody's leaving and everybody's cutting each other off. And oh my, where's your plug? What happened? I thought we had you guys like you were a beautiful butterfly. What happened to you? It's so yeah, I don't know. Yeah, and I think it's I don't know. Do you think that it's maybe become a little gimmicky? Like positive, like fake positivity is part of the spiritual movement.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

That's what I see, yeah. And that's a lot right here. It's like almost gimmicky, where like it's unfortunate because it's becoming that way because of lack of words matching action. Yeah, a lot of that has to do with people not having like civil conversations or not agreeing to disagree or not letting people have room to grow. And so that's where it's I see it as like trending that way, and it's like sucks because color is supposed to be obviously a positive thing, and it's supposed to be something for all like the essence of the rave culture and all this stuff. But like it has been this thing where like I can't count how many times that I've just heard people literally say it's dead, or people be like, oh, here we go again with people using that. Like it is getting that way, and like I hate to see it because, like, to what Paige was saying earlier, it is something we should be pushing forward, it is something that people shouldn't look at and their mind instantly go to is it really though? Are people really is that? Because there are people that are truly living that way and they're like breathe it, live it, you know what I mean? Walk it. There are tons of people that are beautiful examples of pleur. Like there truly are, but with the way cancel culture has and like people not wanting to take accountability and everyone being conditional, it is a little bit hard to be like, is that even really like a thing? Because Inzo is talking about how we like space and now he's getting canceled. So I'm like, I'm a little confused, and like I don't know all the details behind that. I do know some of it, and there might be more, there may be way more layers to that are causing that. But like it is just, you know, again, like that keyboard confidence and all that stuff makes it hard because I don't even see that word used as much as it used to be used. Like I, and the times that I do again, it's in these like weird situations where I'm like, wait, this doesn't, the action isn't matching the word here or and not that we're never perfect all the time. So an individual who might in one moment very much so be living and breathing it, maybe they had a bad fucking day. So, like, we're not expecting it to be like your whole person, anybody's whole personality all the time. Like, definitely not. But to me, I'm almost like, are we all aligned on like that, or are we just like using it because it's been around for so long and it's like an easy blanket statement?

SPEAKER_00 33:44

I was gonna say, do we need to find something new to call it? Because and I think that's something I've realized too. It's like you we gotta let things evolve too. I think people love to hold on, they're like, God, it's dead, like you guys don't get it. It's and like I think I'm 31, I'm getting to that age too where I'll be like, these kids just they don't get it. You're kind of like, God, shut up, John. Like, they don't know what I'm talking about. And so I don't know. I don't I and just in the same sentiment, my little like slogan thing, yeah, like say is the power of love can change the world, but I'm constantly being like, Maybe it's the power of truth. Like, maybe we don't maybe it's not just like love, it's like love truth is the form of love, but it's I think it's almost became this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I don't know, like even what I'm saying, it becomes this thing where everyone's just using it because it's like easy to say, and then people yeah, and then people like automatically are like, yeah, and then like they go off and do some shitty shit. And so it's just it's are we like just yeah, it's hard, and there I don't have an answer. Like, I it's just like I don't have an answer to it, I don't know, but it's just been brought up and it's just it's unfortunate to see you, but it does it need to evolve. Do we need to talk about it? Are we doing this? How are we using it? How are people abusing it?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, right. I think yeah, no, it'll go for it, baby.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

I think it just also comes from just like practicing introspection and like reflecting on like how your actions affect others and what are you doing for your own self-care? Like, how are you moving your body? Are you taking care of your mind? I think that those things are super important and prevalent, just part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, the revolution begins inside of you, and that's it's I don't know. There's this interesting dynamic in the world happening with like spiritualism right now, where it's been pushed so hard to be an individual, be individualistic.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Oh god, you're gonna have to get me fired up. Hyper independence thing is hyper independence is not good.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

It's not good, it's not good, yeah. No, it's not good, and that's what I just released this big uh music video, and that's like the whole premise of it is I came out on this journey seven years ago by myself and found peace and solitude, and it was intoxicating. I was like, wow, there's no problems anymore. Yeah, because you don't have community, John. Like you don't you think you're good, and they're like, God, I'm so alone. What's going on? I feel lonely. It's like, yeah, you don't have friends, John. You've been so hunkered in, and I'm so thankful for that chapter because it definitely gave me peace and taught me how like where my boundaries are at and how what I believe in. And wait, okay, wait, though, that's not my thoughts. That's somebody else's, and that's like I got to do that work, and so in that what I'm chat was getting at with you, Paige, it's that inner work is so important, and it is very important to take that time to meditate, journal, yoga, therapy, whatever it is for you. There's so many different styles of ways you can take care of yourself, you can do it through your body. We all go to these shows to dance, it is a form, and I people aren't really dancing anymore, but but the it is a form of it, and I think it is so important. And I I don't I always say I'm not planting seeds anymore, I'm just giving people their seeds. I'm like, you it's not my job to plant it, you just go. But I think that's an important one I like to give to people where I'm like, dude, they'll be complaining, complaining. I'm like, have you ever tried mirror work? They're like, What? Yeah, dude, you should try some mirror work, you're really mean to yourself, which in turn, you're being mean. I know you're being mean to other people because when I'm judging myself, I that's when I see myself judging others. I know that's how it works, and so yes, it's so important for that inner work, but then to also exist in community. That's the jump, I think, is like where I've found where I'm like, oh, okay, like tight, like I can take this energy and exist in it, and just by existing in this love for myself, it like exudes outwards, and someone's like, dude, what are you doing? I'm like, therapy, I do music, I express myself, I talk about my feelings, I connect with people, like wow, yeah, I don't hold it in. It's crazy, it's so foreign to people. They're like, I don't do that, man. And yeah, and especially with men, that's what we're talking about. It's it's my favorite conversations are with these guys at bars who it's not even in men's groups, it's like a guy who is his friends are connecting with my friends, and he's like this macho man, and we're like, I'll be like, hey man, like, how's it going? We're talking, and he's like all cold, and I'm like, Oh, cool. And then I'll finally find something to get him to talk a little. And then two hours go by, and this guy won't leave me alone because it's like exactly, dude, you want to talk so bad, but you have nowhere to put it. And yeah, I don't know. I cannot express it enough how important this journey of expressing, and of course, everybody has their own experiences. I don't know. I think I might have been given something at birth to want to do this. I've always been very like extrovert. I'm like, God, I feel I'm crying, and I've always been this way. So I think it can be harder for some, and I don't want to take that away from them, but I do think it is important to at least take a baby step in that direction so you don't explode on people. And it's really it's really a wild experience to watch it, and I'm sure you guys have all of your stories with the wild men you've been around, and especially in the scene too, and in the world, it's just I'm like, dude, what? I'm like, you're cool, man. You're cool. I got it, I got it, you're cool, you're cool. All right, but like, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Is the wild west out there with men?

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Oh, yeah, I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Oh my gosh, I had another thought, but I can't. You said something, and I'm like trying to remember what it was. Oh, the thing that you mentioned about like triggers, like that's important because people will be like, I feel like so this and I've X out everybody in my life and all these different things. And I'm like, Of course you feel great, you don't have no triggers. That's not like there is beauty to your point in solitude and being okay being by yourself and all that stuff. Like, I love my me time, like I love to hear my own thoughts, and I love to not hear people talking. I love to do that. Yeah, if you're not on your triggers, of course, it's gonna feel like you've again peaked in enlightenment because you're no longer, but it's like you've also taken every problem, you have no problems because you've decided that you're not gonna have anyone around you that doesn't agree with you, that doesn't like automatically agree with you. Yeah, that's something I needed to say.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

I was gonna say the biggest you can get these beautiful lessons in solitude, but the biggest lessons, because the way we get messed up is through relationships, through whether it be family, obviously the relation to our relationship to ourself. We've been talking about that figuring out how to exist with people is wild, and the only way you solve those problems is by going and being out with people and being like, You're pissing me off, right? And then there's I'm like, Oh god, wait, why are you pissing me off? Damn, wait, what oh, maybe it's me, like maybe I'm judging you or whatever it is, and it's hard, but it that's the only that's where I've learned my biggest lessons, and of course it hurts, it sucks. I'm like, damn, you are such a mirror for me right now. I'm like, ugh, I kind of like that about myself. I'm gonna go work on it.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

We can name this maybe it's me. Yeah, me one of the one of the real titles page could be that maybe it's a great idea.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Maybe it's me with that on it.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I think, especially just talking about being triggered. I think that's why on like social media, a lot of like social media managers will be like, talk about your opinions because your opinions they can be so decisive, and everybody wants to speak about their opinions and they want to have that space to be able to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Are we creating like an echo chamber or are we actually having real thoughts here?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I know. Are real conversations gonna happen online? I'm like, I don't know. It's behind a keyboard. I do men's groups like this where you can have real conversation face to face, but everybody just loves the type, and it's just and try I went down that path. I get it. I no no judgment, kind of judgment, but move on, go out in the world and do something, go plant a tree, go do something. If you wanna I heard a great metaphor the other day on a podcast where it was like, if you're tired of everything, you don't like you wanna you want to be part of the revolution. The revolution isn't standing in front of the bulldozer, it's planting a tree right behind it. It's like, all right, cool, let it go. Like, all right, let's just do this now. Don't get so caught up on this this idea that this person has where I have to do this, is what I'm doing. It's cool. Go ahead. I'm gonna go ahead and fix it after you leave. I don't know. It's and especially I don't I I got out of comment sections quite a while ago. I was like, I'm losing my mind here.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

That's not the best place to like evoke change, really. Like real conversations like like this or in person or other ways are I think, of course, there's power, and especially people with with large platforms to be able to bring awareness to things. I think that's one thing, but I think it's a different thing to think that going to war in Instagram comment section is gonna move the needle because it typically does not. It doesn't do that. There are other ways, there are more impactful ways. And I think what you're talking about, planting the tree behind, just makes me think about being okay with being misunderstood. Like it's okay. People need to get more comfortable with being misunderstood. Of course, curiosity, having asking the why and all of that, but like also getting comfortable with I don't need this person to understand me, honestly. We don't need that person, we don't always need to be understood to be able to make an impact.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah, I think it's what we're talking about the comfort of disagreeing. It's and we live in a world where it's we haven't been taught how to do that. So I like I get it. And I trust me, I'm I've been working so hard on not being a people pleaser because people pleasing is lying. You're literally lying to people. You're like, oh dude, everything's great. And then you go home and you're like, and it's not doesn't do anything. You just made it worse and you didn't say what you wanted, and so it So, yeah, you guys are saying it's getting comfortable with the disagreements. Like, all right, this person's not gonna understand me. I'm gonna stay where I stand. I love you. Good luck. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Truly. Truly. That's it. I feel like we need to have another conversation with you in the future because, like, even with things that Paige was saying, you're saying, like, my mind just like firing in so many directions. We could have this conversation, this yap again. We did take so many turns. I know. I just I love it. I love it so much. So we'll definitely have to have you back on. But do you have any like final words of inspo for our listeners? No pressure.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

No, I think I think what I'd like to say is to the men out there. If you'd like to join men's group, reach out. Love for you to join. We have a beautiful group of guys who we meet on Zoom. We it doesn't matter where you at. We do it online because I just want to make sure everybody has the opportunity to experience something like this. And maybe if not, you come back again, you start it in your own city. Like you don't have to be some guru or anything to hold these things. All you got to do is be willing to be vulnerable and willing to hold space. I don't do I don't do anything. I bring a topic, I get vulnerable. We all it the people who show up do the work. It's not this like profound, crazy, scary thing. Just it's all about holding, getting people together, holding space, and being the first one to be vulnerable. If you feel like doing that, reach out, I'll help you. Like it's truly what we need right now, especially as men. I can only speak towards the male experience right now, but the world is literally being ran in a direction because of toxic masculinity. And what's happening right now is literally the birth of America. I think what we need to do as men is take these hard steps of being vulnerable and talking about these things and holding each other accountable. So if you feel brave enough and you don't even got to feel brave, just vulnerable enough to have a conversation, please reach out and uh let's let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Love that. All right, be on another episode soon, hockey. Hockey's out.