The Present Moment Project

Ep. 12 - What It Really Takes to Move From Surviving to Thriving

• Jill Bershad

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Jill sits down with longtime friend and psychotherapist Rachel Blogg for a conversation that moves between real life, real loss, and the quiet ways people keep going.

They talk about what it looks like to live through hard things without stopping long enough to process them, and what happens when you finally do. There’s a thread of high performance running through it all. The pressure to hold it together. The habit of putting one foot in front of the other. And the shift that comes when that’s no longer enough.

Rachel shares pieces of her story that she hasn’t spoken about publicly before, including her history with disordered eating, how perfectionism shows up, and the ongoing work of staying aware without letting the past define her. They also talk about fear, safety, relationships, and the difference between living as a victim and making intentional choices that feel more empowering.

There’s no neat takeaway here. Just two people sitting in it, making sense of what they’ve lived through, and what it means to keep moving forward with more honesty and intention.

Contact Jill K. Bershad, LMHC, CAP



SPEAKER_02

Hi friends, I am Jill Burshad, and this is the Present Moment Project. Come with me on a journey of healing, transformation, and curiosity. I'm a licensed mental health counselor, a Reiki master, hypnotherapist, a sound healer, and an EMDR trauma therapist who also is a widow. I have learned how to move through life with grace in the aftermath of tragedy. I have learned how to use these modalities through my own healing journey. I hope you're listening, and I know this podcast will help you on your healing journey as well. It's not always easy, though you too can laugh again. I look forward to having you along this wild ride with me. So here we go. Let's get started. Hello, friends! I'm here with Rachel Vlog. I am Jill Bershad with the Present Moment Project Podcast. Rachel's a longtime friend. She's a licensed psychotherapist, a DBT therapist, a performance coach, podcast host with nearly 30 years of experience helping people navigate pressure, emotions, and life's toughest challenges. She works with individuals seeking structured emotional support as well as high performers, athletes managing stress and anxiety, and identify behind the scenes challenges. Rachel's approach is direct, practical, and grounded, focused on real tools that build resilience, clarity, and sustainable success without losing yourself in the process. Hello, Rachel. How are you today? Good. Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun. I know. This is so fun. So Rachel and I met um 21 years ago.

SPEAKER_00

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_02

It's crazy when our kids were in preschool.

SPEAKER_00

Right? They're like toddlers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. And I have to say that Rachel and I, you know, both as therapists, we've always been sort of parallel. Yeah. Right? And not a lot of interaction in all those several years. But you and Sean, Sean is Rachel's husband, were so good to me after I lost Adam. You really were. Especially we weren't close. I mean, you two were, I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. And I'm so happy we've connected and we're doing this journey sort of together, right?

SPEAKER_00

100%. I love it. And it's interesting because I think that we knew each other, like we were acquaintances, right? So, like your name, I knew your name, I absolutely. But we are now friends. Like for sure. 100%. For sure. I adore you and just for sure. Your energy and everything.

SPEAKER_02

You're a safe space for me.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Yeah. You know, it's so important when you go through, well, when I go through, I'll speak for myself, you know, going through such tragedy, it's so important to me who I surround myself with. Absolutely. And if, you know, if there's any feelings of unsafety for me, I I, as hard as it might be, um, I have to stay aligned. And um, and I've had to really make some hard choices.

SPEAKER_00

I totally understand that.

SPEAKER_02

You get that, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think that when we go through life, and we talked a little bit about like, what are we gonna talk about? And there's so many things, right? There's a lot of facets in my life that I mean, some people do know, some people don't. I mean, I just shared something very intimate about me on Janine's podcast. I know you did. You know, I'm stepping into, I've never viewed those as like those are things that I got through. I just thought, like, I just viewed things that those are things I just did, right?

SPEAKER_02

I understand. One foot in front of the other.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And that's kind of how I've lived my life. And as I'm almost 55, I do realize that it's no longer just needing to put one foot in front of the other. I have to actually own that and accept it and recognize it. Because a lot of those things that I went through were really freaking hard. I know. You know? And I don't think that like I really like I don't think that like I really gave myself that like grace or that space because I I do consider myself a high performer. I do consider myself like I I I'm gonna say this, and if I hear myself say it, I'll probably like totally disagree, but really a perfectionist that I never really thought I was a perfectionist until of late. And as I'm doing my own therapy work with my own therapist of just, you know, aligning to who I am, right? Living my life based on who I am, which does mean some of those people, places and things in your life you no longer keep around.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. You know, you know, I was talking about this with somebody the other day, and a lot of people have heard me say this already, and I've talked about it on my podcast. But since I did this course, which I think I've talked about uh on the podcast, it was called TLC the Living Course in the past. Now it's called the Real Course.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I started that course about 11 years ago, and I learned so much about integrity and emotional integrity and making choices based on how you feel, how you think, and how you show up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Integrity is all of those things in alignment. 100%. Right? So when I am um confronted with how do I move forward in this situation, sometimes it's very difficult and uncomfortable. But I but integrity is what I use as my baseline. How if I'm in integrity, how am I gonna move forward in this situation? And it has served me really, really well. And also to piggyback on the one foot in front of the other, I think because of how I grew up, I learned it had to just be a one foot in front of the other. There was no time for intention. And I was a child and I was growing into my own and everything. Now it's one foot in front of the other, but with intention.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

What do you think created this about you where you've always been this one? Right.

SPEAKER_00

I'm the oldest child. I'm just gonna say that. Yeah, I'm the oldest of four. Um I grew up with a very loving family. I'm very close with all my siblings, my nieces, my nephews. Um I have always believed that family is like my priority, right? And it not just my own immediate family, but like family might look like friends, right?

SPEAKER_02

Uh yes. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Family might look like blood, that right, and family just might be people that you want to have in your life.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Because not everybody has family that they want to actually blood family, I should say. Of course. That they want to keep in their life. Right. And and some people choose to not have family members in their life because they need to protect that space for themselves. Right. Totally get that. But I think that me kind of having to show up in life, and it's not that my parents said, This is what you're gonna do. It's almost like I just took on this role.

SPEAKER_02

So you don't feel you are parentified as the oldest of four children?

SPEAKER_00

So I think that at times, like, you know, Rachel, like, you just know, just be the bigger sister, right? Like that, and I never viewed it as like being parentified, and like that was a role. So sometimes, yes. I just think that in my core, from a very young age, I knew that I wanted to take care of it. It was inherent. It was inherent in your personality. That from a I can remember, I think like seven, eight, nine, I knew that I was gonna be in private practice. I wanted to have a really good I was gonna ask you to I knew like many people like had ideas of what their like wedding was gonna look like, what they were when they were gonna be married. None of that crossed my freaking mind. I didn't give a shit about it. I never I never had an idea, like I had to be married by this time, I have to have kids by this time. I didn't care about what a dress was. I never thought about that stuff. It was always how was I going to help people?

SPEAKER_02

That is so interesting. I've never really thought about that because I never thought about that either. I didn't think about what kind of a man was I was gonna marry. What is my dress gonna look like? What kind of a wedding do I want to have? But I have to tell you this, and a lot of people don't know this. I don't know if anybody really knows this because I kind of forgot about it for years and years and years. But as I was growing up, I knew I would be a therapist, but I I had this dream to work in New York City for either, you know, ABC or, you know, um Warner Brothers and work in the um, oh my god, what's it called? In the what's it called? You know, we get clients from them for the employees. They get so many EAP for the EAP program, employee assistance program, and I would be working with the producers or this or that or whoever, although the producers probably had a private therapist, you know what I'm saying? But that was always my dream of living in New York City and working in the entertainment industry as a therapist.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And, you know, I I've never done that, but I feel very fulfilled. You know, I got my license in in New York City, I see clients when I'm there. So I made it work in the way that, you know, yeah, that works for you. No, it's not too late.

SPEAKER_00

Like, that's ideally like what I'd love to do as well. Like, I mean, you know, I watch all those reality TV shows, right? And it also allows me to keep practicing my own skills because non-judgmentalness, like compassion, understanding. It's so easy to judge people's behaviors.

SPEAKER_02

What's your favorite?

SPEAKER_00

Oh that's a hard one. I I really right now I'm watching Summer House, which that's got a whole like taboo stuff of happening with Amanda and Kyle, but we don't need to go there. Um, I like I like Summer House. I like I love the reality housewives. My favorite of those would probably be right now, which is um, I think Beverly Hills. That's kind of what I'm uh Well, I liked Rony for a long time, but then they changed it up. What I don't like-I don't even know what you're talking about. I mean, I know the Housewives shows, but I've never seen one. Yeah. Um, I like um again, I Did you watch The Bachelor? I love the Bachelor show of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02

What is this big one now that everybody loves? Oh, Love Island.

SPEAKER_00

I did like uh Love Island.

SPEAKER_02

But isn't there some scandal about that?

SPEAKER_00

That's old.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, uh see, I don't know. I don't keep up with this.

SPEAKER_00

We can do a whole other podcast on like the reality TV crap that I because I literally could talk about a lot of that. But it's like my nonsense TV that I watch because when after my day of work, and you know, my brain needs to shut off. Oh, I can't. I don't need to be watching TV that I have to pay attention to. Right. Right. And so, you know, I love to do that. But I also, as a therapist, I'd love nothing more than to help many of these women that I know it's all reality, but like again, right? My inside, I've written to them, I've said really yeah, I don't get responses back, but and that's okay. But just so that they know, like, there's help out there. Not that they don't know that, but you know, maybe they're not getting the right help.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe that's one of the reasons I started this podcast. Yeah, same. Was because there is help for everybody out there and people, there's so many people, you know, Rachel, who feel like they're going through life alone.

SPEAKER_00

That's why I started my podcast, why I got onto social media. Right. Because not many people can actually afford the therapy. And, you know, some people don't have families that even support taking them to therapy. So if we can, and again, goes back to when I was a child. I would like to help everyone. And I know I can't.

SPEAKER_02

It's interesting you say that because I didn't know that about you as a child, but that brings up something very interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Do you know what I'm gonna say? No, I can't read your mind.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh! You have to tell the story about when you were just you were visiting one of your kids at college. Okay, wait.

SPEAKER_00

I wasn't even visiting him at college. We were at the March Madness. Is that crazy?

SPEAKER_02

Okay, wait, wait, wait. We have to tell everybody, but hold on. Before we go there, I just want to say it's so interesting that you say that because you were talking about, you know, you know, taking care of people and and that it's inherent in your personality and it doesn't have to be your blood family. But that is definitely the vibe that I've gotten from you. I feel like okay, here's a perfect example. I was just at Town Center Mall, which I do not frequent town center mall very often, not a shopper. Um, but I went into Lotarock, which is amazing chocolate.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

And I brought some for you guys and for me, and we can all share it, right? After I forgot to take it out before. But then I was thinking about how I stopped by your house that one day, and and I and then it took me on this whole story in my brain about I I think I may have said to you, or you may have offered it to me, but do you have any chocolate? And you made sure I was taken care of.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_01

I do.

SPEAKER_02

Like you would not let me leave until so it shows up. What you're describing definitely shows up, and it's a very, I feel like it's a part of you that really sits on top. Like it's a word that if you said describe me in five words, right? You're very nurturing.

SPEAKER_00

That I think I am. You are very nurturing. So you have to share this story about what just happened. Okay, so it's so crazy, right? Because it's like when I say it, it's interesting because like I don't want to minimize it, but I do think it's something that many people I think would just do. So Sean and I were at, we went to Marsh Madness because my son is a a manager for the UCF men's basketball team. They were playing that night. So we flew up for 24 hours. We flew up to watch the game. When do we get to watch one of our teams go? Right. So we got and when we were leaving, there was so much like chaos in the sense of like roads were closed. And we had been calling an Uber. They had canceled a couple of our Ubers, but we walked a further away from the arena. And while we were standing there waiting for our third Uber and praying that they were not going to cancel, I observed a young, young kid. Didn't know anything about him and didn't know how old he was because he's wearing a hoodie. It was like 40 degrees out and it was over his head, whatever. But I could sense, just because I was observing, that he had definite intelligence from like a social awareness because there were a bunch of cars that were coming by and they were like flashing their phones saying, Hey, you want you need to ride, you need to ride. And this kid was like, No, I've got one. And then he immediately walked up to us and said, Hey, my phone is dead. And he showed it to me. Would you guys be able to call me an Uber? And he took out cash and he's like, I'll pay you. And I said, put your cash away. Absolutely not. We will call you an a Lyft. Now I called Lyft because our Ubers kept canceling on us. So I figured, let me try a different company. So I called Lyft. He asked me for the license plate. He looked at it again. I asked him his name because I needed to make sure the Lyft guy knew he was picking up another person, not Rachel. Right. And I gave it to him and I told him and I told him where he's gonna be and everything like that. In the meantime, our Uber comes and hindsight's 2020. I should have, I wish I would have given him my Uber. Didn't even think about that. I just was like, okay, I called you a Lyft. This is where they're gonna be. Now, 40 minutes, I'm still in conversation, communication with this Lyft driver, Ivor. And Ivor said, I'm here, but I saw where Ivor was, but he was nowhere near the pickup point where I told this kid Luke to go. And so, long story short, Ivor finally got to that location, said to me, There is nobody by that description. And all I could tell him was he was wearing a white hoodie. He was light-skinned. That's it. I couldn't say he was even Caucasian, I couldn't say he was black. He just was a light-skinned person. And I wasn't gonna describe him as something I didn't see. I couldn't see his hair. I couldn't see, you know, I didn't notice his hands. I just remembered what he was wearing, and I just saw his beautiful face. Okay. Yeah. So Ivor then cancels the ride, which that's another story because Ivor did not get paid for that ride. He should have said it was like a no-show.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

Rather than canceled it.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, all the stars were aligned. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So he didn't can't he canceled it, but now I've been trying to find Ivor, which that's another story. So anyway, the next morning I wake up. Um sick. This is the best part. Right. I'm sick to set myself. I can't think because I'm like, did this kid get home? I knew where he was going. He said, so he said he was going back to the Penn campus. He told me the dorm, but I had no idea. So I immediately before my husband and I got on a flight back to Florida, I just made a quick TikTok saying, hey, this is where he's going. I don't need to know. I don't need to connect with him. I just need somebody to tell me that he got home okay. Can somebody tell me that? Close it, I get on the plane. Okay. I land, and this thing has like, I don't know, 50,000, 75,000 views. I was like, holy crap. Oh my gosh. Okay. And and moms. Moms were coming out of the woodwork. But you know what I saw from that? These mothers were all like coming together. It was like a village, right? And people were like commending me. And I'm thinking, no, I did nothing. Like, I just want to find this kid to know he got back safely.

SPEAKER_02

That's who you are.

SPEAKER_00

That's who I am. So a mom had actually sent, posted on the comments, why don't you do a well check? Which again, being a therapist, I do lots of well checks, but I never considered this as a well check because he wasn't a client of mine. Right. I didn't, and I also didn't want to scare him, right? Let's just be honest. Nowadays, especially because I did not know who this kid was, right? I didn't want to send police to the door.

SPEAKER_02

So I would have been a little conflicted as well. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_00

So what I did is I called the dorm, left a message saying, I'm just trying to find him. I don't even know if he lives there because I didn't not know if he was maybe staying with somebody. And then I called Penn UPen. I say you pen, but Penn Police Department, and I explained the situation. I said, I don't need to know anything about him. I just want to know that he got back okay. I just couldn't sit with it. Like that's just, you know. Right. About an hour later, I got a message from Penn Police Department that not only did he show back up at campus last night, but he's been active on campus. That's all I needed to know. The next morning I wake up. That video has gone viral. It's gotten almost 500,000 views. But more importantly, it reached his family. So I got the chills because.

SPEAKER_02

I think I just did too, by the way. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So I reached it, reached his father. I think his mother was sent the video by a family member who then dad reached out to me, sent me a message, posted it on TikTok, but then he sent me a private message, gave me his phone number. I immediately called him. He was so grateful, so gracious, such a beautiful human being. And from see just having that conversation with dad, who then said, I need to hear about your kids. Tell me about like, and so he's already helped my son out. He connected Cole because you know Cole's in this sports arena, right? And he did. He did. He connected Cole to his brother, who is like somewhere in the back office or front office with the king.

SPEAKER_02

And I know that's not why you did it. No. Of course not. And you didn't even know that that would be a possibility. But that's just karma. That is that is the epitome of what you put out. It comes back.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. And that's it. So they invited us up to a for one of his games, which we can I can't unfortunately go because I have a retreat that weekend. But you know, I would totally fly up. I will catch if I will catch one of his games in the fall if you, you know, if he's gonna get it. And then what happened, Rachel? And then it's so weird. I know it's crazy. AB uh ABC Philadelphia called, connected me. They said, This your video's going viral in Philadelphia. Can we want you on? And the next thing I know, like they're she's interviewing me and it was on. And then some of my sorority sisters posted this. Like they're like, Rachel, look, you're on TV. I'm like, this is crazy. And then so I can then I did get reached out to, which I'm not really supposed to, I guess I can't say who it was, but a reality TV show reached out to me. I didn't even tell you that. I don't know this part. I don't think I'm gonna get it because I think callbacks are this week. But if I anyway, they asked me to send my interview in, a video in, I applied. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02

You're you'll tell me when it's no longer a secret. Correct. But I can't think of what kind of a reality show this would fit into. So because I don't watch reality TV.

SPEAKER_00

I watch It's not one of those, like it's not temptation. I'm I'm happily married, like I'm not going on one of those kind of shows.

SPEAKER_02

I I wouldn't even know what it is if you told me the only reality TV show I watch is uh related to homes, like selling sunset or house up tours. You know what I mean? Yeah. I like the design and the architecture and the real estate and all of that. That is incredible. And this is what I'm thinking is I I think I would have done the same thing with the Uber. And by the way, you should always have more than just Uber on your phone because I had so much fraud on my Uber that my daughter's account was banned. Yeah. And now she can't have Uber anymore because I had to shut the whole thing down. So we were recently in New York City. She had to call a lift and she already had it on her phone. Yeah. So that's really important.

SPEAKER_00

But also to have your phones charged. Honestly, obviously that's nobody's intention, but I make it very clear to my kids please, if your phone is below 20, 30 percent. And you know you're about to go out, supercharge it. No, I mean, I know, or bring a battery pack that's for you to keep in your pocket, especially because we do rely so much on these phones.

SPEAKER_02

But it's a must. He did so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I connected with dad. Um, dad's gonna be on my podcast because dad has a remarkable story.

SPEAKER_02

You have to have a podcast about this. He's we are going to say the name of your podcast.

SPEAKER_00

My well, so it's currently, I don't know when this is dropping, but right now it's imperfectly imperfect me 365. However, I have just rebranded my entire self and my podcast is going to be called Imperfectly Human. So because when I started my podcast, it was me talking into the phone about how I'm Imperfectly Perfect Me. Right, right, right, right. Perfectly imperfect me, because it was really just about teaching people that we're all human. Just because I'm a therapist does not mean that I use my skills all the time. I mean, and even though I've gotten through a lot of these things, right? Like I had two deaths that were extremely close to me. I got divorced, I I got remarried, right? Um, I'm the oldest. There's a lot of things. There's a lot, right?

SPEAKER_02

I know there's been a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Is that you survive? And so that's why I started it. But now And you thrive.

SPEAKER_02

Wait a minute. And we thrive, and you are thriving, my friends. That's what I said to Rachel before uh we started rolling, is that in in my perspective, you show up like you're on fire. You're very empowered, going after what you want. Nothing unstoppable. Unstoppable.

SPEAKER_00

I do feel like that is.

SPEAKER_02

That's how and isn't it the most amazing feeling?

SPEAKER_00

It is. And and you know what? The thing I could say to your listeners is that we all deal with really shitty things. We do there's no question. I mean, I'm not immune, you're not immune, right? And it's not about just showing up and being unstoppable, but it's not sitting in the fear, facing the fear and doing it anyway. And you know what? Like, I look back as look, I mean, I didn't get married thinking I'm gonna get divorced. I mean, I got married the first time, and I mean, I wouldn't change it at all. Of course, you have to have beautiful kids. And we have a very I mean, for divorced people, I have a great relationship with him and his wife and their kid and my former in-laws. They still come to our house, we have celebrations. It's beautiful. Um, but that's not just because we're just perfect. It's because we worked on we did that intentionally because for us, our children were really important. And I look, we got divorced for a reason, right? Things I did, things he did, obviously. But we needed to put aside our dislike of why we were getting divorced and why we ended up getting divorced and say this is what's working for our children. They need to see a home, even it's not the home, uh, you know, a cohesive home, like one together.

SPEAKER_02

Right. You know, so uh first of all, you and Sean, I think from where I'm sitting, have blended your two families together so beautifully. Thanks. He is such a nice man, he is a true mensch, yeah. He's a mensch.

SPEAKER_00

He's a mensch. It's been 12 years, and the first few years, I'm not gonna lie, were really challenging.

SPEAKER_02

Of course, you were willing to that's the point, is you were willing to do the hard work for sure instead of just quitting or giving up or saying, no, this is too hard. And that's sort of the point, is that that's how we build resilience. Yeah, that's how we go from surviving to thriving is by doing that hard work and getting uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And that's the thing I think that people can learn. You know, I know that I've learned, right? Like I was not a gem in my first marriage at all. Like, I'm I was not easy at times, and I'm sure I'm not easy at now, you know, to Sean, he'd say that. But you have to look back at like what, even if it was a mistake I made, that doesn't define who I am as a human at all. We all make mistakes, you know. How can I learn from that mistake? And so we work on that, and there are times that we're like, oh shit, we forgot working. We got to get back to working.

SPEAKER_02

Right, you know? Yes. I wanna, I I wanna just say one thing about that story with helping that young man at the college. So I would have called the Uber as well. Um, and I would have wanted to know as well that he was okay. I don't know that I would think to go as far as you though. Do you know what I'm saying? Like you were not giving up. I don't know. I feel like, and I don't know. Maybe I'm not giving myself enough credit in this situation. It it would eat at me though if I didn't know he was okay.

SPEAKER_00

That was the piece.

SPEAKER_02

Just just you talking about it, I felt a little like him being there alone and not knowing what he was gonna do. I felt it a little bit. It reminded me of a time, and I I'm not a person really who leads with fear, but I took myself, I was visiting my son at school in Atlanta, and I took myself to a queen concert with Agatha. And I have to tell you, yeah, I don't mind doing that stuff. It's actually preferable at times to go alone. And I'm making friends, and everybody who's sitting around me, we're all rocking out together. And um, and by the way, it was the most one of the most amazing concerts. Oh my gosh. It was amazing. It was, it was, oh, at a cellular level. Yeah, it was amazing. But I was trying to find an Uber after the concert, and it was real this is exactly the same story. It was very, well, to a point, but I couldn't find my Uber. Yeah. I could not find my Uber, and I had to keep reordering the Ubers and reordering the Ubers. And then things are things are, you know, uh getting quieter, and more people are getting in their cars. And and then I'm standing in the middle, uh, like I don't I don't know where. In the middle of where, in the middle of my state farm arena in Atlanta, and I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't know what I did do. I think I hopped in a taxi because there were no taxis. I mean, the traffic, you couldn't get anywhere. So I maybe eventually when it had totally cleared out, and I'm standing there like in the dark, I'm looking around to see if there's any restaurants or hotels around. No, it's scary. Not really so many, and I don't think I was in the really the best area.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I could only imagine that boy. And thank God he didn't feel embarrassed to come up and help you know to ask you for help.

SPEAKER_00

No, he was so you could tell, like you did not, I did not know anything about him. But as a mom, and he's about the same, he's a freshman in college, right? I have two boys, they're junior and senior in college, right? You could just pick up like this kid, he knew his shit. Like he was aware. He was not hopping in just any other random.

SPEAKER_02

He asked the right person. Yeah. And I think that um see you give off that energy. That's how I do to come to you.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, it's interesting because you know, I have my own trauma from what happened in Gainesville. I was there when those murders happened. And I will say that I'm very skeptical of a lot of people and things. I understand. And I've definitely developed a little bit more fear from that standpoint.

SPEAKER_02

Talk about that. Talk about that for a minute. You know, some people may not even know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So in 1990, I actually had just transferred. I was at started at FSU and then transferred in the middle of my freshman year to UF.

SPEAKER_02

Did you know I went to FSU?

SPEAKER_00

I did. Okay. Yes, I think I did. I don't I don't remember that I remembered it, but I do. I did. I did know that after you mentioned that. I started there and then I transferred to UF, and that was in the days where you sent a paper. Right, right, right, right. I remember so I never wanted to go to UF. My parents wanted me to go to UF, and I'm like, I'm not going. So I sent my application in really late. So by the time they got it, they could only approve me for spring. Fine. I was happy as a pig and shit because I was going to FSU. That is where I wanted to go. Right, right. My parents didn't want me going there. They wanted me at UF. I'm like, I'm going to FSU. Oh my gosh. And then this thing happens. So then I transferred in the spring of 90, and then I in the fall of 90. And by that, you know, and that was literally, I'll never forget the first two were on it. Monday, sat Sunday, the second one was Monday, and then the last two were Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02

And so talk, tell everybody what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00

So there was a serial killer on campus. And like my world was shocked. Like shocked and rocked. I have never been the same. Did you leave your apartment? I left my apartment for three weeks for I left. So Sunday was rush, like rush day, like pledge day. Like you got your day. Like I was up there the week before. I was I used to run by myself.

SPEAKER_02

I know all the time. I know. I remember you telling me that now you will not do that.

SPEAKER_00

I will never run by I don't even run in my own development by myself.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

No. And have you ever done EMDR? No, I I've considered it. But I'm okay. I don't need to run by myself.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

But I do think that EMDR would be really effective for me when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_02

Like I don't think if you do, let me be clear, even if you do EMDR, I'm not suggesting you run by yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I've thought about it because my my my flight or fight syndrome pops in. And that kind of goes back to when I met Luke that day. If I was by myself and Sean was not with me, I might have reacted. I still probably would have called him an Uber, right? Or Lyft, but I might have felt a little bit more skeptical. Sure. Just because that passed, but I was with Sean.

SPEAKER_02

Like I didn't even it didn't even Sean's like seven feet tall, by the way. How tall is he?

SPEAKER_00

He's like six, two, I think. Six.

SPEAKER_02

He comes across as like this big presence.

SPEAKER_00

He is a big presence.

SPEAKER_02

I thought he was taller than that.

SPEAKER_00

That's his accent, too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, he has a nice accent. So um so yeah, so Sunday I woke up. It was bid day. That's what it was called, bid day. Find out if you and I heard that there were two people that had gotten murdered. I didn't think anything of it. Because you know, I mean, which is kind of sad, but back in 1990, you didn't we didn't have phones, right? So we didn't have now for our listeners, you have to remember 1990, I did not have a cell phone. We got our news on the phone. We had an apartment phone, you had call waiting, you'd walk down the street, you would ride your bike to your neighbor's house, or you'd run to see if you guys wanted to hang out. How did you guys make plans? We did not have cell phones.

SPEAKER_02

Where did you live?

SPEAKER_00

I lived in Rockwood Villas.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00

So, and my parents had bought that place. So it was a townhouse up and down, and I had two roommates at the time. No alarm. We'd leave our doors unlocked. Like, you didn't think anything of it. Right. Right? Then Monday morning I woke up and there's you hear that there's another murder. And I'm like, this is so weird. Like three, and now, like, they're not just women. And one was a man and a big man, like a big guy, like a big college student, right? And the way that they were saying that this person got in, there was no forced entry in because there couldn't be, because we all lived with our windows open, doors unlocked. I don't I think we'd sleep with our doors unlocked, and you're talking three women in a college apartment. That's just how safe and naive we were. Right. And then Tuesday morning we woke up and there were two more. And now they were saying there was a serial killer on not just on the campus, but like around the area. Around the area.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm confused. Where did you feel safer? Not in your apartment.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, hell no. I'd go that fright that Tuesday night. I slept at my best friend's Sabrina's place in the dorm. Sabrina. Yeah. She had a dorm. And that was we woke up Wednesday morning. I called the police. And at this point, they've been calling all the like the police from Miami, right? Boca to come up to Gainesville and help. So my mom happened to have a friend whose husband was on the police department and said, listen, Rachel fits the description. You know, it was the women that were murdered were like petite Brunette women. And um I'm so glad I was not. Yeah, so he said, have her come home. He said, Yeah, had her come home, have her come home. So what I did is he said, Listen, I'm up here, have a have a code word with whoever's coming to your door. So I'm like, okay, great. So I called the police department from her dorm, said, I need to escort back to my apartment because I don't know if anybody's in there, right? And um That was smart. I gave him the code word. He looked at me, I'll never forget this. I was with a like four or five other friends that got in my car that all lived around there. And um he looked at me like I had 15 heads, like, what code word? I'm like, he's like, ma'am, do you want an escort back to your apartment? I'm like, the code word, the code word I gave you that you're not gonna murder me, right?

SPEAKER_02

You're supposed to have given the person who comes to your door a code word. Right, but I I gave it to the police officer too. Yeah, that's for if like a friend knocked at the door, you needed to ask me. You know why?

SPEAKER_00

Because they weren't sure if it was a person he was impersonating certain people at the time, and there was a lot of rumors. But again, this is just what we're hearing on the news because nobody has phones. So he escorts us back, and I left campus, I think, for three weeks. I they closed campus down for a long time. It was during the drop and ad period, also.

SPEAKER_02

What year was this?

SPEAKER_00

1990.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, my brother was there then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I decided to come back to school. That was my first experience of like not letting fear get in my way.

SPEAKER_02

I definitely tell me, tell us, tell us what I'm saying. I did.

SPEAKER_00

I well, so we got an alarm on the apartment. We got extra locks on all the windows. I'm not gonna lie that, and I don't think I've ever admitted this to anybody, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02

Inverted here, people. Right.

SPEAKER_00

The way that the apartment was is that there was one room on the first floor. Thank God that was not me. It was my good friend Jen, and her bathroom in the kitchen. And then there were stairs that were right by like the sliding glass windows, the sliding glass doors that went to the back of the patio. And then the stairs go up, and my bedroom was those stairs. I would jump over those three stairs to get to that landing so I can, because I was terrified of that window that somebody was gonna grab me. This is how irrational my mind was.

SPEAKER_02

But was it really that irrational at that moment? No, I don't think it was real killer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, no, this is I think after they had already. I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't even know if they caught him before I came back.

SPEAKER_02

I think we worry about copycats.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. I I just was scared shitless for the like and and then the and I thought I had worked through it, right? Worked through it.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Um, by the way, for anybody who listens to this on audio, there's air quotes around okay that you had worked through.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Um because and I didn't, and I did. I thought I had done work through that, you know. I'd I I'd spoken to a therapist, like they had a lot of like trauma people on campus. I did get my first phone. My father put a phone, the kind that was like as big as my head, screwed into the car. Yeah. So I would call my roommate. Is it the brick? I don't even know the name of the damn phone, but it didn't come out. It had a cord, not long. It just stayed in the car. And so I'd call my roommate because back then you needed to know your friends' numbers, like apart house numbers, because you can't program into the phone. So I'd call my roommates before, like when I'm coming home saying I'm coming home, unlock the door, and I kid you not, I'd get out of my car and I'd bolt. I would run. And it's not like I was running far. I was at the first parking lot, parking space that was right in front of my apartment, and it was just a walkway.

SPEAKER_02

Your life could look so different now if you didn't face your fear and do it anyway. Yeah. It could have looked so hundred percent different.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And that's why I said I did not let fear in that moment. And I think that was for me like the turning point where I thought, like, I didn't even think about when I was getting divorced, about being afraid of not gonna make money. I didn't work full time. So I just I didn't let fear. But I realized that I had not actually worked through that when I was doing a Ragnar relay race, which was 20 plus years later. And the the run portion that I was doing was 11 p.m. run, and it was an unsupported, which meant that our van couldn't stay right with us side by side. And they could stay across the way on the road. They weren't really supposed to, but they didn't this time for whatever reason. I've never run so fast in my life. 12 miles run at 11 p.m. at night. I think I averaged probably like an eight-minute pace, if not under. Wow. And that's very impressive. I was terrified. I was fucking terrified. I will never because there were runners around, but not like Right, right. I get it. So close. I'd see a flashing light in front of me. I'd see a blinking light behind me. I was looking in the bushes to see if anybody is popping out. Like literally, I was terrified. But it was that moment that I realized that you did not work through this, Rachel.

SPEAKER_02

Can I ask you a question that you may not want to answer? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00

Go for it.

SPEAKER_02

Um, do you guys have a gun?

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_02

In your home?

SPEAKER_00

I don't, I would not, and I'm not against guns. So just for all you people out there, I just don't trust myself. Because I am so skittishy, right? Like I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. Even and I it's I've been to gun ranges. My I've I have people in my family that have guns. Like I've been to them, right? I think I've even shot one, right? Um, I can't remember if it was a good shot or a bad shot. I'm gonna presume it was neither. I don't know. Um, I might have just blacked out when I was holding the gun um in the drive. But I mean, I'm not against them, right? But I do think that, you know, like I just I don't trust myself with one.

SPEAKER_02

I think that's very responsible, Rachel. Yes, I think that's amazing. So, you know, yeah. I was curious about that. I have to, I have to go back to one thing. Yeah, there's so many things that I I want to talk to you about. So I just want to go back to this one thing, and that's the difference between allowing yourself to be a victim and and choosing different differently so you can feel empowered.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I focus on that so much in my life. Yeah, you know, I don't want to live like a victim. And people can fall into victimhood so easily and not even realize that they're doing it.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I'm sure that I'm many and we can't, we wouldn't blame them.

SPEAKER_02

No, because we can understand. Yeah. Oh my gosh, of course not. Listen, if somebody left UF at that time and didn't come back, you have to do what's good for you. For sure. Like, right. Though, this is where I'm going with this. You know, like for example, what I've been through, this could look much different.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And what you've been through, this can look much different, right? But we are making very intentional choices so that we can feel empowered in our life, that we can feel that we have control over our life, that things are not happening to us, right? That we are taking responsibility for our own lives.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that that is such an important, important concept for everybody. Because who wants to feel like a victim?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's the fear. I think that underlying this fearless. It's I I I use my example of like me getting remarried, right? Right. My current husband, right? My only husband, not my current, but my husband now.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, Sean. Right? Um, like if I was so afraid of getting married again because I and did my first marriage and divorce, right? I would never have had this opportunity. No. And there were moments, I'm not gonna lie, that fear popped up of like, am I gonna do this? Are we gonna do this? What is it gonna look like? Normal. Right? Yes, but you don't allow it to define you.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And that's I think the difference that a lot of people don't realize is that nobody's you could still have had some bad shit happen to you.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm sure you have. A hundred percent. Because everybody has.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And choose to not be a victim. That doesn't mean that it wasn't, it didn't suck and that you're not valid for feeling angry, hurt, sad, all those things. It just means you're not letting it define your life. Right.

SPEAKER_02

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00

And that's the piece, is I think a lot of people get stuck there because they're so set on proving how bad things were are, versus like just problem solving and empowering yourself. You know?

SPEAKER_02

I also think there's a lot of secondary gain with staying in victim.

SPEAKER_00

For sure.

SPEAKER_02

But it's an icky feeling. It's not really effective. For me. A hundred percent. I don't yeah, it's not effective. You're not gonna live the life that you want if you're staying in victim.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02

For sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um okay, I want to go back to something else. You mentioned that you recently revealed or talked about for the very first time publicly something on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, on Janine's.

SPEAKER_02

Would you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. And I I just have to say, before you talk about it, I'm loving the vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02

This stuff has to be talked about. Yeah. We have there have to be people.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's interesting because until and it's funny because I mean we're in Janine's space right now, right? Um, and when I and thank you to you because you made the connection, which again And don't you love Janine? I love Janine. Isn't she amazing? We love her, we love you, and you too, Roy.

SPEAKER_02

Um and so I feel like we're Janine and I are like kindred spirits.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's how I felt literally when her and I were sitting there, when you had referred me, and I'm like, let me just come take a look at your podcast.

SPEAKER_02

See if I'm comfortable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we just sat down, and the next thing, literally, like both of us are like teary-eyed. We've both just shared our stories, and we're both like, I've never talked about this, right? I've I I mean, some of my friends knew, some of my my family may have known, but like the way I spoke about it with her, it was almost like it was just so at ease. Like it wasn't even a question.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and there's something so important to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know what I'm gonna say? No. I mean, you two. Shared your stories together, which when we don't talk about it, it can breed shame.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And the two of you together were connecting on an emotional level because you were willing to be vulnerable. And Janine was willing to be vulnerable. And you two were willing to face your fear and do it anyway. Because I'm sure there was a little bit of you know something going on there as you were talking about it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and actually, I don't think so. For me, I can only speak for me. I felt at such ease.

SPEAKER_02

I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_00

And like it felt like a relief.

SPEAKER_02

And when you first started talking about it with people.

SPEAKER_00

That was the first time I talked about it with people.

SPEAKER_02

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00

But you've talked about it with your friends. Um, no, like my friends who knew me at that time, my bestest friends went through it. But my friends. Oh, now don't they do if they've listened to my podcast? Kudos to you. But I've never just it's because I don't, it's not defining. Nobody even knows what we're talking about right now. But we're talking about like my eating disorder, my history of disordered eating. I had exercise bulimia. And I I mean, I I I think I said it on the podcast, but like I definitely had some form of restrictive eating. I wouldn't say anorexia because I didn't have because I did eat. I just had a lot of I exercise bulimia and I was very restrictive with my food intake. I didn't eat more than a thousand calories a day. I had four meals a day. Today's what? April 3rd. I could tell you today what I'm eating May 15th. And because I still? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't think so. Because I know you. No, you don't do that.

SPEAKER_00

No, now I enjoy, I'm I enjoy my life.

SPEAKER_02

And and you're you like chocolate and stuff like that. I love chocolate. And I, yeah. And you eat it.

SPEAKER_00

And I do eat it. Yeah. We have shit candy all over my house. And then it's funny, is because that would have never, if you would have told me when I was in my early 20s when I was going through my recovery of this, that I would have a house that had a candy shelf in my pantry and I had MMs on the counter and I had starverse and I had licorice, I would be like, no way, that will never be allowed in my house. And now I have it and I don't even touch it because you know why? Because I know I can have it. And then periodically, I'll take. I could I could tell when I'm craving chocolate, like I'm due for my like menstrual cycle, um, which I still, by the way, do get, yes. Um you heard it here, folks. But yeah, that it wasn't until Janine said, Do you want to be a guest on my show and share your story? That I felt that pit in my stomach. And I'm like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_02

That's what I'm talking about. And you did share it anyway. That's what I'm talking about. And how did that feel?

SPEAKER_00

It felt great. And I realized in that moment, and this is a little bit of the transformation of what I'm making, doing in myself personally, but also in my work, right? Because I have been in private practices, as you know, for almost 28 years. I've been a licensed clinical social worker, I've been licensed psychotherapist, I'm a DBT intensively trained, licensed in 10 states, and I've worked with athletes high performers like myself, right? I've just never made that the forefront of my work, right? So I'm now you're stepping into your power. Yeah, you are performance coaching, which I had my own like judgments about as a therapist. I'm still a licensed therapist, yes. And between you and me and your listeners who do listen to this. I was gonna say, how is this gonna be between you and me? Right. It's not, is that even though it's underlying the performance coach piece, I still will probably get license in those states that people are in. I still will follow the same guidelines. Exactly. That's who I am. It's no different than when people have reached out to me on Facebook, my friends, my people, acquaintances, and they might ask me for a recommendation or a referral. Exactly. It doesn't go past that. I treat the same like anything that people share like that, especially when it comes to mental health, like a vault.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it that's what I say too. I say this is a vault to a fault almost. Like I used to do it with Adam. He'd be like, Why didn't you tell me that? I'm like, I don't know. They didn't want me to tell anybody, but I'm your husband. Right. I don't know. It just goes in the vault. It doesn't go.

SPEAKER_00

I think that piece is I think that part is hard for Sean because he can share things about his job and like his day. And he's like, How was your day? I'm like, all my patients showed up. Nobody canceled. I taught emotion regulation in my skills group. And that's it, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Because that's just you know, I also I have a coaching business. Yeah. And I actually, y'all heard it here. This is like my new saying today, I guess. Um, I just changed the name of my um additional LLC, and it's now called um Burchad Wellness Coaching.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_02

And that's because while I am very much a licensed therapist, well, first of all, what I wanted to say, piggybacking on what you said, if I was working in somebody in a coaching capacity, it would never occur to me to not keep HIPAA. Right. It's correct. That's terrible. But I also and you're the same way, like it's not for me to share your story.

SPEAKER_00

But even who I'm working with. Yeah. Because I've worked with high-end athletes, I've worked with very like some well-known. I'm never with, of course. Right. I've never shared. I'm not sharing I am a vault, right? So that's why I always joke. I'm like, I would be great for these reality stars because like their shit would no, like, go nowhere. Like, you couldn't pay me the amount, no amount of money could ever get me to ever share who, what, where, when, what was going on.

SPEAKER_02

Never. And maybe they'll hire you. Talk about it. Maybe they'll hire their housewives, will hire you. You could do group therapy. You can help them.

SPEAKER_00

But then their ratings would go down if I taught them really effective skills. That's true. It wouldn't be a show. There wouldn't be a show. Right. There wouldn't be a show. I do think there's a balance, though. I think that there's a balance in life, right? Because like you need to have some chaos, and I get that. But like some of these women, their lives are being ruined. And even these men, right? And maybe it's editing and that is all understandable. But at the end of the day, like they're still human beings. I mean, not everybody's gonna. We're I'm fortunate, thank God, we did not have these cell phones around when we were in college. Because I definitely did some stupid ass shit. Right. Right. I used to do a lot. I did some. I didn't do, I mean, I I'm not saying a lot, but I'm like, you know, I've definitely I ran home from a bar once, purple porpoise at in Gainesville, two and a half miles to my dorm by myself. Oh, yeah, not safe. Stupid.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, not safe.

SPEAKER_00

That was before the murders.

SPEAKER_02

I grew up with a mother who had so much anxiety, I can't imagine the thought of ever keeping my doors unlocked or not setting the alarm.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Oh, well, now, hell no. No, but I'm talking about when I was growing up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

When we when we were little, I mean, we're around the same age. I mean, that was always. Yeah. Always, always, always. Um, I want to say this quote here, and I'm not saying you were feeling any shame when you were sitting here talking about it whatsoever, but there's a saying, breed um shame breed, I'm sorry, secrets and or silence breed shame.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_02

And so the fact that you two were talking about it and you connected on an emotional level and you both could understand each other on that level is so that's what creates resilience and strength and courage and the ability to share your story with other people is so important because then they feel they can share their story and still be loved. Yeah, I don't feel any differently about you that you had, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Thanks. And I think that it was really, there was a lot to it, like with my rigidity and my perfectionism and things like that. And and it's still, listen, it's 30 plus years since I've been ever in that space. And I it's still like behind me. It's it's it's not far behind me. I mean, that action was far behind me, but I know like it's like when you're in recovery of any kind, like you still have to be aware of it, right? Absolutely. So, like I know for me when I was training for my Iron Man, there were moments because I was doing a lot of badass, Rachel. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

How many Iron Man's have you done?

SPEAKER_00

I've only done one full Iron Man, I did three half Iron Man.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

I've done 16 full marathons and 30 plus half marathons. 64 marathons. 16 full wow marathons.

SPEAKER_02

You know, Adam was training for marathons when he got sick. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You're so dedicated. But anyway, go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00

So um what was I saying about? Oh, so when I was training for the Iron Man, there were times where, like, you know, you're doing a century ride and you're hungry, and like I knew I needed to kind of keep weight on. So like sometimes I would have like some chocolate-covered almonds, right? And like the almond MMs, right? Those were my favorite, to the point that my husband would put a bag in my travel bag when I'd go for like my trips for the half marathon or something. And if I had to do like a brick the next day, which is a bike and then a run, and the run is designed to be six miles after like a 60-mile bike ride. I sometimes had that thought of like you ate that MMs, you should do seven miles. And then and I'm like, nope, that's your eating disorder. You're gonna do six miles because that's what you you were planning to do. That's what's on your train. So it's still that awareness. It's not, it's definitely that was year 12 years ago I did an Iron Man, 14 years ago, actually. Yeah, 2012.

SPEAKER_02

So I want to ask you this question. Yeah, we know that these behaviors perfectionism, rigidity, the restrictive eating, we know that those are coping mechanisms. But what do you think led you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's a great question. Janine asked me that out too. Did she? Yeah. Um I think that when I was around seven or eight, maybe maybe even nine or something like that, I had come back from camp, and I'm not blaming this. But if you had to. I don't blame, it's just experience. I think that a friend's parent had was on the phone with my parent and they said, Oh, Rachel got fat. I think what ended up happening is I never developed a good relationship with my body. You know, even to this day. Like, I mean, I'm not fat. I know I'm not fat. I'm athletic, I know. And, you know, beautiful. Thank you. And I work out and I I walk and I do weights and I do, you know, cycling. Um, and I have cellulite in my ass and I have cellulite in my thighs, like, you know, um, and my triceps are, you know, but like I have learned to love my body as it is. And I feel healthy. And I'm eating like I eat, you know, like I eat what I want. If I if I'm craving some chips and sauce, I'll have it, you know. I would never have eaten that 30 something years ago.

SPEAKER_02

I have to say, I have to say these two things. So this weekend, yeah, this past weekend was my was my wedding anniversary. I know. So I posted something on Facebook and I saw somebody the next day, and I'm not upset. I'm not at all. But the person says to me, um, you're like 20 pounds lighter than you were in that wedding picture. And I'm thinking, oh no, I was probably like a hundred pounds in my wedding picture. I go, really? Like I was confused by it. I said, really? He goes, Yeah, like you're you're like, you were like a little chunky in that picture. Oh my gosh. What? But that's the thing, like, who gives anybody's right to just talk about a woman's body? I know it just amazes me that like your friend, your mom's friend would say that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you're talking what I'm 54, so let's be honest. Like that was like 44.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. No, I know that. I know that. And I don't hold it against this person whatsoever. Okay, so the other thing that I wanted to just point out, and then I I want to move on to something else. I mean, we're almost done, and I haven't even covered like half the topics that I want to cover with you. But I wanted to say this, you know, I think it's so important because, and I'm sure you've experienced this many times as well. But you said that, you know, you had the experience at UF and you thought you had worked through it.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. And they arrested the guy, I thought it, I locked the doors. I I I then if I look back right now, I'm looking at my skin.

SPEAKER_02

But here's what I want to say is that I see clients all the time, and I'll say, you know, how are you how are you doing around this situation? They're like, Oh, I'm fine. I just don't think about it.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I say, Well, you're fine. You might think you're fine, you may not be thinking about it, but your body is carrying all of that trauma for you. And that's why you're getting migraines, and that's why you can't sleep, and that's why you're smoking from day to night now. And yeah, of course you're fine. You're not feeling any of your feelings, you know. And I think that's just such an important thing to point out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You can't just put things to the side. Yeah. They are gonna catch up with you. You have to address them head on and really work through them to heal them, or they will lead.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, they will lead. You know, it'll affect your longevity, it will affect your aging. I mean, I could go on and on. Your immune system. I mean, on and on and on. So, this is what I want to talk about. You mentioned you're a DBT therapist, and I want you to talk about what a DBT therap a therapist exactly is. And I want you to talk about, so you've lost two people very, very close to you. You went through the UF experience of living on living in Gainesville with a serial killer. You had disordered eating, which you've had to work through. You've gotten divorced, you've been remarried. And you're very strong. Yeah. And you're very brave, and you're very resilient. And I know that you've used a lot of the skills uh that you teach as a DBT therapist to get you there. And I would like you to share with our listeners what that has looked like for you.

SPEAKER_00

So I think that me getting intensively trained in 2009 in DBT, I had done some DVT trainings before that.

SPEAKER_02

And let me mention, a lot of people call themselves DBT therapists.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And they are not specifically trained in DBT. And it's it's very specific. Yes. So I think so.

SPEAKER_00

I got intensively trained through behavioral tech. That is Marshall Linahan's company that did the training, and it was a six-month training. It was two weeks. One week you go, the next, then you come home, you create your program, and you do all the skills and you practice it, and then you come back and you present your program and all these other things. Um it's uh dialectical behavior therapy, and it's uh basically teaching people how to get to wise mind. Because if we're in wise mind, we have our emotional mind, we have our you know, wise mind, and we have our reasonable mind, right? Being in a reasonable mind all the time is not healthy either because then you can't have these relationships. You're exactly you'll be cold and dismissive, right? Exactly. Being an emotional mind, yeah, you might have some great relationships, but you are running on adrenaline, you are running by your emotions are controlling you, and you cannot make wise mind choices. And so DBT teaches people who have a lot of it started out as people who had suicidal thinking, self-harmed behaviors, and a lot of, you know, other disordered, ineffective behaviors that would be long-term. Like they might be effective short term, right? But they don't solve problems.

SPEAKER_02

And I just want to say, and I think you just touched on this, is that you know, it used to be used a lot with people who we thought struggled with borderline personality disorder, which was thought of as like a death sentence. Yeah back in the day.

SPEAKER_00

It's not back in the day, but it's one of the best, it's it's literally the in fact, um It's not too late ever.

SPEAKER_02

If you go through DBT, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00

100%. And one of the, and I can't remember the name, I think it was Perry Hoffman, and she's no longer with us, but in in Marsha Lenahan's Back from the Edge video, she talks about it's like one of the best prognosis diagnosis. Like, like because it is treatable.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe send me that video. Yeah, it's on YouTube. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

It's I mean, it's an old video, but it really explains like how people who have BPD really feel very sensitive and they interpret things differently than what is actually seen. And that's what DBT teaches people is that to learn to check your facts, to learn to listen to your gut, you have to learn how to listen to your gut and trust your gut, your intuition. And your intuition. And many people who have emotional dysregulation and sensitivity to emotions don't do that because everything seems to be emotion-minded. Exactly. Right? So talk about the four pillars of DBT. So it's mindfulness, it's emotion regulation, it's distress tolerance, and it's interpersonal effectiveness skills. And mindfulness is the foundation of DBT. I mean, it is. It's it's really a beautiful thing. I'm gonna be honest with you, it's uh if I did not have DBT in my life at the time, when I got divorced, it probably would have ended in a lot worse ways. Because and and the transition and why we are friends today, you know, we could just go up to one of the football, one of the basketball games at UCF together and because and and walk to the game together because uh I've used a lot of skills. Because if we stay in that victim role and the blame, right, then you're gonna always stay angry.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't serve you, you're gonna always be correct.

SPEAKER_00

And you could still protect yourself and choose places with boundaries. Very important, correct, with boundaries and not act on those emotions. And that's what DBT teaches. So you have the mindfulness, distress tolerance, those are both acceptance skills. And then you have distress tolerance, I mean emotion regulation and interpersonal effectiveness skills.

SPEAKER_02

Right. A lot of people um who use DBT, the the clients, you know, they don't have any self-worth.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so that's the interpersonal and intrapersonal. Yeah, right. And um And I use a lot of the skills just so you know. What are you? What are your favorites?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, mine? I'm sorry. It's definitely opposite action. I mean, I do. I I mean, yesterday I was feeling like such crap, and I'm like, I just wanted to stay in bed. I didn't want to work, although I love what I do. And then I'm like, just get dressed.

SPEAKER_02

And then you felt great.

SPEAKER_00

And proud of yourself of pushing, right? Yeah, and then I said, you know what? What's gonna be different? What can you change? You're trying to step into this role of not being so calculated. So guess what? I did one of my therapy sessions in my bed. Obviously, I was not in my pajamas, I was sitting on my bed. Love it. But like, I've never done that in 28 years in private practice. I've never just sat in my bedroom on my bed having a therapy session.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I'm gonna say this to you, and I was debating well whether I was gonna say it or not. But I feel like you have softened so much since I first met you, and over the years, and now I love that.

SPEAKER_00

I love that you could see that because I truly believe that I'm working a lot on that. I have a very sharp tongue. My delivery sometimes does not land. You do.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, you've never used it with me, but and I've never even seen you use it, but I know you could be very like Yeah, mess.

SPEAKER_00

My sharp, my tongue is sharp, and it's never with intention to hurt people. I know and it can, and it has, right? And so I've definitely worked on being more mindful and and still being able to deliver what I want to say, and it doesn't always land perfectly.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so I've never seen you use a sharp tongue. For me, it's more energetic. You seem so much more not that I was like scared of you. It's not that, it wasn't that at all. It's just you're so much more like approachable, I think, for people. I think in general, like your whole vibe is I take that as a cover.

SPEAKER_00

Years ago at a at a at a club, I'll never forget. Some guy walked up to me and he's like, and he said, I don't, I think I don't even know if I was dating anybody, but I just remember he said to me, You are one of the most beautiful women I've ever met, but you are so unapproachable. Really? And I thought, oh my God, is that an insult or a compliment? Like, what the fuck does that mean? And then I took a look at that. Like, I would totally room with you in Israel.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I don't know if I would have before. But he's like, I don't know, like everything has to be perfect. You know, it might make me like, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I think there's a balance. I think letting people in, right? Like I was just telling Janine, like you and I are so polar opposites in the way we do things, right? Like you are so laid back, and I envy that a lot about you. I'm not laid back.

SPEAKER_02

I said, How did you get here before me? I said, first of all, how did you get here before me? First of all, because you left way after me. And I guess maybe the traffic broke up.

SPEAKER_00

My GPS didn't take me the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02

Well, no, I got off because 95 was stopped. But anyway, but anyway, I said, Rachel, do you have a bio you can send me? And she said, nothing like last minute. And she's like, what are we talking about? I don't know. Well, we'll it'll just flow. But I have to tell you, I was never like that before. First of all, I would have never had a podcast.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Ever. I think you put yourself in the corner a lot. I don't think you let yourself shine. And so this is interesting because I still now? No, no, no. That's what I was gonna say. I think in the past. So I would describe it pre-Adam. Oh post-Adam. It is.

SPEAKER_02

And it's not just pre-Adam and post-addam, it's pre-my Mother stopping when she stopped talking to me.

SPEAKER_00

So it was about the same time. It was exactly right. It was the same week. So when I say that, like when the when Adam passed and everything happened with your mom, like up until that, like, which I also didn't know you so well. So I can't say that. No, I'm a different person. I do remember seeing a transition. And absolutely it's like you shine. Like, even in all the scatteredness that you can have at times, you are shining.

SPEAKER_02

And by the way, I used to be way more like you. I was never scattered. How did you get to be so laid back? I was never scattered. I was so organized. I like making a list, I like crossing it off because I it makes me feel good. Right. I don't first of all, and I never had like any type of ADD before. But when Adam died, I had to jump into action. I mean I'm running my own business. I'm taking care of three kids. Yes, my two older kids were a little bit older, but still they had just lost their father by suicide. I mean, our whole worlds were shaken up. You know, I'm taking care of a house, my pets, my business, myself, my kids. I'm all over the place. And I I keep promising myself that I need to like start doing those brain games or learn mahjong because I don't like this. This whole scatteredness business. It's not really me.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And I can be scattered, give myself grace. 100%. Understand why it is the way that it is, know that it's not going to be like this forever. I'm not worried. But sometimes, you know, I feel bad because I mean I'm showing up as my best. Yeah. And I know why it's happening. I'm not doing it intentionally. Yeah. But, you know, it affects other people. It affects other people. And so for me and everybody else around me, I really need to get it under control. And my daughter, my youngest, is about to go to college. Right. And I will be an empty nester, except for my two boys at home. Um and I know that I have to get busy, you know, with shatteredness is a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00

I don't want you to think it that way. Like I and I can sense I want to like rescue you, so I'm gonna be mindful of that because my therapist said, Rachel, don't get it.

SPEAKER_02

And it's okay. I don't feel I don't, I'm not judging myself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that I view it as very laid back.

SPEAKER_02

Like I have become very because I don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Because the whole things are different for you. Like there's little things that are more important that you are recognizing.

SPEAKER_02

Rachel, there are much bigger things I need to use my brain for and that are so much more of a priority. I can't worry about if you like me or don't like me, or if you think I don't look good when I go out and don't wear makeup. Like, I don't care. I'm wearing leggings on my podcast. Like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I just don't care anymore, which is, by the way, uh 180 from growing up, because I grew up where I had to be a good girl, not go this way, not go that way. Right there in that corner. So I was, you know, right. I did have, and so I was maybe like, I think one of my big coping skills was, you know, becoming an overachiever and you know, getting the best grades. Right. Maybe you'll notice me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um so that was, I think, my big thing, right? Um, okay, we totally have to end. Yeah. We totally have to end. But this is what I want to say. You do the opposite action. I say act as if.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, you know, it's the same thing. So I do, I love I I mean, it is what it is. It's a big, it's one of the mindfulness skills. Like that radical acceptance is a huge piece for me. Um, and that's it's and it's not something that it's something that you can teach, and I do teach it. And I tell my clients that when you really get it, you'll get it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely. That happens. Feel it.

SPEAKER_00

Like you're like that aha moment, like this. Okay, it is what it is. Like I can't do anything. It's visceral, right? It's visceral. Very much so.

SPEAKER_02

You know what? That happened. Uh I don't want to go too into I I there are certain people I like to protect. Yeah. Meaning, like, I do have children. They don't need to absolutely not my whole entire life needs to be put out there. But um, you know, I was having a bit of a hard time, and I surrendered when I realized it was out of my control. Yeah. I say the serenity prayer all the time, by the way. And I never went through the rooms of a hundred any of them. Um, God give me this serenity, uh give uh God give me the serenity to accept God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Another great kind of mantra or motto to live your life by.

SPEAKER_00

It's such a and you don't need to be in the rooms, you don't need to be an alcoholic, you don't need to be a drug. No, no, no, no. It is a saying that I think that they just created that is can resonate with everybody.

SPEAKER_02

I worked at a treatment center for a couple of years when the market crashed in 2008. And um I I it was all over. Yeah, you know, I it was all over the treatment center, so it was in my face all the time, and it just kind of organically like became a part of my yeah, you know, and that's a part of resilience. Absolutely. That's a big part of building resilience. Um, this is what I want to say. You're awesome. Thank you. I love this. We've gone way beyond time. We cannot cut any of this, Janine. So it's gonna have to be what it is, and we're gonna have to do it again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Tell people how to find you, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. So you could find me on I don't know, Instagram at Rachelblog LCSW. You could find me on LinkedIn, Rachelblog LCSW.

SPEAKER_02

And your podcast.

SPEAKER_00

My podcast right now. So currently it's imperfect, it's imperfectly imperfect, perfectly imperfect me 365, but it is going to be changed to imperfectly human.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So you can find me on all places at it. It's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

I forgot thank you so much. Hi 10! Hi 10! Hi 10. This was fun. All right, guys. I'm Jill Burchad with the Present Moment Project, and I will see you again soon. And remember, folks, the Present Moment Project is intended for informational and inspirational purposes only. The views and opinions shared by the hosts and guests are their own and do not constitute medical, legal, or professional advice. Please consult a qualified healthcare professional before making any medical or wellness decisions. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care, no matter how wise we may sound in this present moment.