Ep. 15 - When Life Keeps Saying No and You Keep Going Anyway

Adventure therapy, Navy SEALs, and what happens when the path you were certain about closes on you twice. David Cohen, a therapist and founder of Invictus Psychotherapy in Boca Raton, sits down to talk about how a DWI at 19 changed the entire direction of his life, and what it took to find purpose on the other side of that.

David walks through what adventure therapy actually looks like in practice, why talking about your problems in a chair only goes so far, and how taking someone rock climbing or kayaking can get to places that traditional talk therapy never reaches. The conversation moves into the body, the nervous system, and why so many people are walking around in a stress response they do not even recognize as one.

Jill and David talk honestly about sitting with emotions instead of outrunning them, the difference between insight and actual change, and why the belief "I can't do it" that shows up on a ropes course is the exact same belief that shows up everywhere else in a person's life. There is also a real conversation about men and emotional expression, and what it takes to access feelings when you were conditioned not to have them.

There is a lot of ground covered here, including OCD, hypnotherapy, exposure therapy, and what it means to be of genuine service versus just getting by. David is about to join the Army National Guard, has a two-month-old at home, and sees around thirty clients a week. He is doing the work, and it shows.

Contact Jill K. Bershad, LMHC, CAP

• Email: jill@jillbershad.com 
• Website: jillbershad.com
• Instagram: @jillkbershad.lmhc
• Facebook: jillkbershad

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi friends, I am Jill Burshad, and this is the Present Moment Project. Come with me on a journey of healing, transformation, and curiosity. I'm a licensed mental health counselor, a Reiki master, hypnotherapist, a sound healer, and an EMDR trauma therapist who also is a widow. I have learned how to move through life with grace in the aftermath of tragedy. I have learned how to use these modalities through my own healing journey. I hope you're listening, and I know this podcast will help you on your healing journey as well. It's not always easy, though you too can laugh again. I look forward to having you along this wild ride with me. So here we go. Let's get started. Hello, friends! I am Jill Bershad of the Present Moment Project Podcast, and today I would like to welcome my friend David Cohen, a licensed mental health counselor and founder of Invictus Psychotherapy. David specializes in helping individuals ages 11 and up. I wanted to ask you about that. Why 11? But we'll get to that. And up builds resilience, manage stress, and create meaningful change through a combination of evidence-based therapy and experiential approaches, including adventure therapy, and I want to talk about that a lot today. With over 13 years of experience in the mental health field and nearly five years in private practice, David has worked with individuals, couples, families, high-performing professionals, first responders, and veterans. Some of David's primary areas of focus are anxiety disorders, obsessive compulsive disorders, and trauma, including complex trauma. He has also worked in both substance abuse and mental health facilities earlier on in his career. I definitely have to say this. David is extensively trained across multiple modalities and holds certifications as a Beck Institute cognitive behavioral therapist certified clinician, which for those of you that don't know that is very impressive. I would love to hear about that experience too. Sure. But let me just finish because there's more people.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

There's more.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Certified clinical trauma professional level two, certified hypnotherapist. We should talk about that because I never knew that you were a hypnotherapist until recently, which I am as well. That's right, I know. And I I I just love it. And I just see a lot of change with the hypnotherapy. Certified clinical adventure therapist and is a is and is trained in accelerated resolution therapy, ART. Very passionate about adventure therapy, and has developed and ran adventure therapy curriculums at multiple facilities in the past. Welcome, David.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Oh my gosh, I don't even know where to start.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah. Quite a mouthful, so.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, I I really don't even know where to start with you because I'm gonna be getting to know you a lot more on this podcast. We see each other a lot at events and we've spoken. David also is a new daddy. He has a two-month-old baby, his first baby. And I I was joking, of course. But listen, I thought, well, I could ask. Maybe there's a slight possibility, but I asked David to bring his baby with us with him today.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I would love to bring him here, but I would love to meet him one day. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

My kids say to me, I mean, I talk to every baby and little kid I see on the streets everywhere I go. And my kids say to me, Mom, in this day and age, you can't just walk up to a baby or a toddler and talk to them because the parents are gonna think that you're trying to kidnap them. And I'm like, okay, but the parents are right there. You know what I mean? Sure. Um it it's it can really be quite distracting if I'm with other people, you know. But wait, wait, I just need another minute. I just need another minute. I'm like that with dogs too.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

Are you?

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yeah, the thing that really I really wanted to talk with you t about today is the adventure therapy because that's so it's just not typical. You know, you're I you know, I know um Brian, he would do the scuba diving. Right. Right? That was like the first I had heard of that. That was many years ago we talked about that. But you're really the first person that I've known to be a certified adventure therapist. Yes. Did I say that right? Okay. So this is where I want to start with you. I want to start from the beginning. Okay. And I want to know how we got here. Right?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

To like this place in my current time as a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

And as a person. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, because I know you've had some, you know, challenging times like we all have, uh-huh. And how you sort of gotten through them. And I'm assuming, you know, adventure therapy may be a part of your story. Sure. Right? And so I kind of want to hear how we got here, right? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah. So I guess I'll just kind of start from the top. Right. So how far how far back would you like me to go?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

As far back as you think is important.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Okay. Yeah. So I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, right? Um part. Uh Living uh well, I grew up in Clifton and then I moved to Livingston for when I went to high school.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Oh, that is so funny. I just spent the other night with a group of Livingston women.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

One of my closest friends uh raised her babies in Livingston.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Oh, okay. Does she does she still have a house there or is she going to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_02 5:24

She doesn't, but I've met some of her friends that come down from Livingston. Okay. Who do have houses there.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

And they come down and they have family here, and I just was with all of them the other night. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, it is funny. Small world. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And um it's I just never her I've never talked so much about Livingston ever. And now it's like coming up everywhere. So it's funny that you're you're from there. It is. No such thing as coincidences either.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, that's that's wonderful. And it's a beautiful town and it's a really nice, you know, part of New Jersey. So definitely recommend going there.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

And really close to the city.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

It is. I think it's like 30, 40 minutes away from the city. You know, I didn't go there too often when I lived in New Jersey. I tried to stay away from the cities. I like more of like the you know, the country areas and a mountain area, so that's kind of where I feel you know my heart. Most of it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Which is interesting to say because I live in in South Florida. So not a lot of mountains here, but every time me and my wife go away, we go to the mountains.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Where do you go?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Uh, we've been going all around like the the west, the midwest to like Colorado, Montana, Utah, Arizona, California, all those kind of areas. We've been trying to do as much traveling as we could before. And we're both really into hiking and just the outdoors and and all those other things.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

So wait, I have to ask you a question. Now that you have a baby, are you gonna be the kind of parents that are like, oh my god, no, now we can't do anything, we're not gonna be able to hike, or are you gonna be the guy that puts the baby in that big backpack thing?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

That's the plan. On your back. Yeah, we're gonna put them in a in a in a pack. When, you know, as long as the trail isn't isn't too sure, you know, arduous or anything like that. As long as, you know, keeping in mind safety. But uh, you know, like I I competed in a competition this weekend, and we brought, you know, that was like the first kind of like go-away we had, and you know, we stayed in a little cabin out in Okeechobee and and uh we tried to bring them to the competition, and it was it was it's called the Patriot Games, and it's more of like a tactical style competition.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

But what did you have to do?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

So it's a combination of of different kind of workouts like obstacles with uh different uh shooting stages while you're doing that. So it's a combination of like longer distance shooting or you know, you know, pistol and rifle shooting while while doing those kind of workouts or heart rate's up and it's we're badass. Not not so much, a little bit. I try I I try to be you know, always just trying to push myself. And I'm an adrenaline junkie, so I gotta find healthy ways to kind of to have that outlet. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Right. I have to tell you, it's very strange because I am a city person and very much a mountain person. And we were just talking about this before we started rolling that I now go to Colorado. I've been going every summer for the last maybe, I don't know, five years.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Oh, that's that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

My soul is at such peace when I'm up in the mountains. Yeah, there's just something so magical about it. I feel so close to source. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I I know exactly what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

When I'm in Colorado and I also love New York City, is like one of my favorite places to go because I love the culture and the shows and Central Park and the food and just all of it. So when people ask me if I'm more of a country person or city person, it's really hard for me to answer that. You know, we all have parts of us. Absolutely. We all have parts.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah, that makes sense. Um yeah, it's good to have that balance between the two.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I'm sure if you're you just do one all the time, eventually it kind of loses that that wander, right? And that that feeling of peace and harmony. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Sure. So, okay, sorry. I needed to just add that in. So go ahead. So you grew up in Livingston.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Grew up in Livingston. Um, and let's see, so you know, pretty average childhood, um, you know, as with any kind of level of, you know, conflict and confrontation you grow up with within a family. And then when I uh let's see, I went to Ruckers for majority of my undergraduate degree. Um, and you know, I I got into partying a little maybe too hard. I got in a little bit of trouble when I was in in college, and which created some setbacks for me later on in life, um, because you know, I I I come to realize what I really wanted to do, what I felt was my calling, and it kind of created a lot of setbacks there and hurdles. And um, but so eventually, you know, I I completed a majority of my education at Ruckers and ended up moving down to South Florida um and finished up at FAU, um, where um at the time, right, I again I was I was driven towards things that are more fulfilling, which for me is being helpful, right? Of service. Um so my passion at the time, I wanted to join the military. And um, you know, in my early 20s, I was obsessed with you know uh the special warfare community, and you know, I finally found like a passion of mine, something that I felt like was worth my time and effort, something that spoke to me.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

And wait, can you explain what that means? I can imagine, you know, you said you found this special warfare community.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, naval, so it's a naval special warfare, right? And there's different uh special warfare um like uh teams or units, right? So you know everybody knows Navy SEALs now because they're very glorified over the media. Okay, and at the time that's what I really wanted to do. And I, you know, I attempted to do that, but because I got in trouble um when I was in college, which I got a you know a DWI and a possession marijuana charge when I was 18, 19 years old, I needed more waivers. So uh, you know, I had to pre-qualify for everything before they would submit my waivers. And so I did. I trained very hard for you know, four hours a day between, you know, running and swimming, and and uh at the time I was doing some uh, you know, some um like combat sports, so like you know, kickboxing and and MMA and things like that. And I because I started boxing when I was 14. So I've always had an affinity for for those combat sports and it's something I've always liked to do.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Can I stop you just for one second? I think what you just said is so important that we need to emphasize it just for a moment is that you were in college and you ended up getting, I think you said a DWI and a a a marijuana possession. Yeah. And you were in college, and I know you see it, I definitely see it. You know, college students, right? They're like, oh, I'm just gonna smoke a little pot or I'm just gonna drink a little, it's not gonna be an issue. And then if they maybe do get into a little bit of trouble, they don't realize how it's gonna affect the trajectory of potentially the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

And that's what happened to you. It is, it is, and I just think it's important everybody's listening. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

No, it is very important, right? And you know, I when I was younger.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Or all of us, wait a minute. Not even as a college student. I mean, I know people who have had, you know, a couple drinks and they're like, oh, it's fine. I it's I just live down the street, and then it's not so fine.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

It's not, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:56

It's not so fine.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

So you know, it's like one of those things everybody thinks they're immortal, right? Especially young kids.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Um, you know, there's just this immortality complex, right? That we all kind of have.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Um, and that's what I thought. And I've seen so many other kids doing it, and I just kind of normalized it and and justified it. And you know, if I can share it, that's what we do, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

And it's college. We're supposed to have a little bit of fun. Just be careful. Just be have responsible fun.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Right. And you know, I I was more risk averse, right? Or not averse, but I was like, you know, I I moved towards risk more because you know, it's just it's fun and it's exciting and it filled me up instead of just the normal stagnation of life or whatever it was. So I liked how I felt when I did things that were a little bit more, you know, wrong or taboo. And um, yeah, so then you know, I got in trouble and it did change the trajectory for my life, and it's one of my biggest regrets, and I have to live with that every day.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

So and you're making such a beautiful life for yourself now, yeah, which is amazing. And do you think you could have made this beautiful life for yourself? What do you think you would be where you are today without all of those experiences?

SPEAKER_01 13:00

No, definitely not. Because I mean, they crafted me to have to take a firm look inside. Where if I kind of just got by, I would never have to do that deeper work, right? To make those like necessary changes to find out, you know, who I am and what was important for me and to let go of some things that I was holding on to. And I think a majority of us, right, who kind of just get by, right? I mean, we're constantly projecting from all those untreated wounds from the past and not realizing it because we're just skating by. And you know, I wasn't able to do that because right, right.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

And we're on automatic pilot.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

You know, it's interesting because I feel like I am where I am today because of all the adversity that I've had to deal with. And that doesn't mean okay, smoke, drink, get in the car, and then you're gonna figure out who you are. You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people don't use their adversity or challenging times to move closer to their potential. You know, it's a lot. I mean, you can speak to it, I can speak to it. A lot of people can speak to it. It's really hard work. It's really hard work to look within and and face uh whatever it is that uh we've been pushing down when we're on automatic pilot.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

You know what I mean? So I just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

It is. Um, especially, you know, at the time, I mean, there's been a major push for mental health. So, like when I was in college, um, you know, it wasn't the same kind of um, you know, culture around mental health. Now there's a huge push for, you know, mental health for men and for teenagers. I have multiple, you know, uh clients who I meet with who are in college, right? And when I was in college, there's no way I would have taken an hour to meet with the therapist.

SPEAKER_05 14:40

No. Right?

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Because I was just so concerned about you know having fun or going to school. And I never thought, you know, I had it that bad where I needed to do that kind of work. There was such a stigma with that.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

And you're like, everybody else is doing the same thing that I'm doing. Right. Why do I need help?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

You know, I do get a lot of young people call me, whether they're college students or right out of college. I actually was just talking to somebody on my way over here as a new client, and it makes me so happy when a college student or a young person calls me and they want to come into therapy. Yeah, not because their parents want them to, but because they they they want to live their best life. It's just such a different time. It is, it is such a different time. It just warms my heart so much when I get those calls.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I feel the same way, you know, especially kind of I've had some clients I've been working with for multiple years and seen them when they were, you know, seniors in high school and now they're finishing up a college and don't you love that?

SPEAKER_02 15:33

I do, and they're definitely. And then then they're gonna be having babies or getting married. It's it's so fulfilling, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

It is, it is, and we get a very special role in people's lives. Like I would say, you know, I know it's a privilege. It is a very strong privilege, and I never take for granted the fact that people let us into such a very vulnerable space in their life to play, you know, a helpful role, and we get to see things more deeply than most people, even family members. So you know, it's a very honorary role. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

You said that so beautifully. I want to say this that you were you brought up how there's such there's such a uh a bright a brighter light, a bigger light being shone, shown uh on mental health and men's mental health and everybody's mental health. I don't know if you just read, and I don't know the exact statistic, but that mental health just surpassed and is now number one uh cause of death. Did you read that?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I I've seen something like that. Like more than cancer.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, more than lots of things combined. It's so scary.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

It is.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

I am working on something right now, I haven't really talked about it. I'm gonna start, and now I'm thinking because it's so late in the spring and we're coming into summer, that I'm gonna start in the fall, but I'm starting a women's self-love and empowerment collective and a men's self-love empowerment collective where it's going to be like a monthly membership and there'll be groups and there'll be support. I just think about all of the people who really think they're alone or believe they're alone or really are alone, you know what I mean, and that are they're so lonely and they don't think that there's anybody out there that they can talk to, maybe they can't afford it, or they don't have uh they don't have insurance. So it's gonna be really reasonable. And if somebody just needs a little bit of support or love or company, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah, no, that's wonderful, it's amazing. And um, is there a certain like um like directive for the groups? I know it's kind of like empowerment, but you know, is it gonna be like topics like that you're gonna focus on in each one, or is it gonna be more open forum for people to just come in and share? It's gonna be both. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

It's gonna be both, just kind of like this kind of like this podcast. It's very organic, but I knew there was like a f some topics I wanted to touch on with you, of course. So I I'm I I want it to be collaborative, you know, as well. Yeah. So you know, if there's something that the group needs, I would that's where we would go.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah. Right? That's amazing. That's wonderful. And and those kind of groups are s are so so helpful, right? Because you know, even just doing individual therapy is so nice to have an additional space for support for certain.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

But think about these people who are lonely or don't have anybody. This can create a community for them. They can meet on their own, you know, and then support each other.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah. And it's it's so well needed too, because uh you know, I'm sure you know you deal with this as well, but so many people don't feel comfortable to open up about these really vulnerable parts of their lives with their friends or their family members because they don't want the judgment, right? Especially if it's about the relationship or certain topics that are just really, you know, like might expose certain shame for them or other things. So I think that's huge and it's definitely definitely well needed. So yeah, thank you. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

I'm excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Awesome. I'm excited for you.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Thank you. Thank you. So, all right, so you're you're in the naval warfare community.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Not in it, but I was you know, I was an applicant, right? So I figured if I finally figured out because I really, you know, when I was when I was in college, I was a little scattered, I was lost, right? I had an idea of some things I wanted to do, but nothing really touched, you know, my my spirit, my heart very much. Um, and growing up, right, things that really fascinated me very much was things surrounding like the warrior culture, right? I was always really interested in like you know, medieval, you know, like warfare and just modern day warfare. And like that's the things that kind of fueled me.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

So is there a reason? Did you know somebody involved or movies? Maybe you saw a movie?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I think it started out with with movies and books, right? And you know, you're you just connect with certain things. Some people are certain sports, right? And some kids grow up, they want to be a baseball player, and some kids want to be a doctor, some kids want to be a lawyer, maybe it's because their family member was, you know, and like you know, my grandparents all all served and things like that in World War II and even before then. But um, yeah, that's that's just what spoke to me, you know. And I was always into that style, right? I kind of forced my parents to you know take me to start boxing when I was 13, 14, and 13.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Did you do karate and all of that? Yeah, when I was a kid. What's your favorite war movie?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

That's a hard question.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Are your top three?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Top three. Um top three war movies.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I would say it's interesting that we're talking about war right now with what's going on in the world. Yeah. Some people could be really offended by us talking about war, and some people might not be.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

And I'm I'm not, I I don't we're not here to this is just your experience. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, you know, certain certain movies I you know I enjoyed. Um I liked uh The Outpost. That was a pretty good one. Um let's see if I go back.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Um I don't know if I've even heard of that movie.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

No?

SPEAKER_02 20:45

How old is it?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

I'd say it's probably I'd say it's maybe three, four years old.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah, maybe it could be older, right? My my my times are are a little lapsed. So that's one of them. You know, I like um, let's see, I also liked there's so many of them.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Um more.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah. I liked uh, you know, there's a recent one that came out and it was uh I forget what it's called, but land of bad, maybe I think that was another good one. Um yeah, so I mean there's there's there's a bunch of good ones.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

So you you uh applied for this warfare community. Yeah. And what happened from there?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, it was yeah, it was a butts contract, right? So uh what happened is I needed to qualify physically, I needed to take, you know, the uh, you know, the test, which is the ASVAB, right? And uh, you know, I needed to go to MEPS, right? And make sure that I was completely qualified before they processed my waivers. So I did all those things and I trained for a while and I finally, you know, I qualified for the physical fitness test, and I think I got a 91 on the ASVAB at the time, so I qualified and went to MEPS.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

You must be in such good shape at the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

I was, right? I mean, I spent a lot of time training, and I was adamant. I you know, I found something that I was really that I I became obsessed about because I I really wanted that. And um, you know, they had to I had to go through that whole process and they you know they submitted my waivers and had to go all the way up and you know after about a year and four months it came back and it was denied. So it was yeah. Mm-hmm. So that that was kind of yeah that crushed my spirit at the time. And you know I I had friends who I've made and and they were all moving forward. So I kind of get to see everybody kind of move and and I you know I had to stand still. So now I had to you know I had to shift in my identity. What do I do now?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

And was this a result of the trouble you got into in college?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Because I needed moral waivers where other people didn't right and if I didn't have those I would have I would have gotten in just fine. Because I qualified in every other area. Oh wow yeah okay big lesson there huge lesson big lesson there's and that that was you know it's it's after when you realize like how how critical that initial mistake was you know I always say this to people you know every our whole life is about choices and every single choice that we make adds up to our life.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah you know and so we have to be so careful with every decision that we make. That's not to say we should all become unable to make decisions because it's okay to make mistakes you know what I mean it is it's okay and that's what makes us who we are right absolutely so so you were you were denied.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

I was denied.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Okay and then what?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

So then I um I finished up my college degree um and decided what else you know I I started to you know think about what else am I passionate about because my undergraduate degree is in economics because at Ruther's I was a double major in economics and psychology but when I switched to FAU I just moved forward with economics so I could graduate sooner.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

So I thought about financial advising and other things I could do with with just a bachelor's in economics and it really didn't it didn't resonate with me.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

I do not see that for you at all. Yeah so thank you how come even though you're wearing like the sports jacket and the finance boy shoes I mean it's very handsome. I like the whole setup I just know no because I I see you wanting to make not that financial advisors don't make a difference. Sure. They definitely do I think you wanted it to be more hands on. I think you want to see it happening in action. Yeah you know people saying oh my gosh wow I didn't realize I was capable of this or oh my gosh I really am a lovable person or oh my gosh I didn't you know what I mean and I think that that is what fulfills you so much yeah is helping like you're really making a difference in the world. Yeah. In so many ways. We haven't even gotten there yet. Sure yeah we haven't even talked about all the ways you're making a difference.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah I'll have to leap forward a bit because there's a lot to it right but yes so you know I I I had to move forward and and I did I finished my bachelor's degree and then I had to ask myself what else am I passionate about? Like what what is my other option and I decided to you know to move forward with mental health.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

But wait am I right?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah absolutely I in my impressions yeah my purpose comes more so from like connection and being of service that way.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

You know and like like you said people who work in in finance or you know economics doesn't mean they're not making a difference right but that just it's not something that filled me up I think if I did that right I wouldn't enjoy going to the office as much or doing those things. I I agree with you. Yeah I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Absolutely when did you um when did you first feel what true connection is I know that's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

That's a really and that's a really good question and I don't think anybody's ever asked me that what true connection is um I think when I started you know I had my parents right but I I learned to kind of disconnect from them earlier on because there was conflict in my home and I love my parents but you know there was there were some things that you know caused me to kind of just put up a wall with my family right and we know that nobody gets out of their childhood unscathed. Yeah yeah absolutely even because I mean there's so many things that happen everybody does the best they can and I I was I was given so much love and and you know and and privilege and other things so are they alive? Yeah they are they both are do they live nearby they live in New Jersey.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

So it's your wife's mom that is watching the baby today.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yeah my in-laws live a few blocks away from me. Oh wow so they've been a huge help. Nice because I work during a week and she works remotely so that could be risky.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Living a few blocks?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah luckily we we get along well and they're they're extremely helpful and you know it's they're wonderful so we appreciate them and I appreciate them. And you're so you're so blessed that you can have a grandparent yeah who wants to do that absolutely and is good with the baby yes yeah yeah absolutely I love that yeah and I want that for for for my son because I want him to have family around and you know I grew up with a lot of cousins which is so nice right it is very nice. It was it was nice having all you know all those connections and you know I you actually bring people back to genuine connections and I actually think now I'm thinking about it my first real connections were you know with my cousins or or my really good friends when I was young and those childhood bonds you make there's nothing else like that because when you get older I mean you connect with people but you don't just you don't just hang out and watch TV when you have nothing to do on a summer day right it's it's like oh let's go get dinner or you know let's do this. We're always doing things around you know socialization but it's never just you know so I don't know just just that childlike you know connections there's there's nothing like that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah do you feel that you're somebody who can like I don't do small talk. I mean I can do small talk and I do it fine. Yeah but it kind of exhausts me a little bit yeah like I would much rather be talking about real things. I just said to somebody yesterday I said authenticity is my love language.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah it really is you should quote that I should yeah I think I'll put it on my Instagram story today. Authenticity is my love language. Yeah Jill Burchad awesome yeah it should be the sixth level but it really is true it's so true I don't energetically I just don't do well with people who perform or it's just not authentic.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah and I get that I think I'm I'm I'm I'm very similar which is probably why I became a therapist yeah I had a feeling yeah right yeah and well that's probably one of the reasons you became a therapist that is definitely one of the reasons I think there are probably some other reasons as well sure no absolutely but no I I get that I like the medium talk or the deep talk surface level oh medium talk I love that you should quote that I think that came from Larry David Kirby enthusiasm I always think about small talk and like real talk.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

I've never thought about medium talk but I'm sure I do a lot of medium talk. Yeah yeah somewhere in the middle you can't you know you can't start a conference yeah Kirby enthusiasm yeah yeah yeah I think he's talking very funny he is he is um so yeah so where do we leave off um well that it it got in the way like you're you're you got into some trouble it got in the way and now you're denied and you're watching people move on and you go to FAU and you graduate in economics and you know you're not gonna be satisfied in life you know doing that so you explored you went deep with inside yeah and you said what is it what what do I visualize? Yeah what what do I imagine doing and being happy and feeling fulfilled.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Right yeah and and psychology was that a good wrap up of where we were that was great and I needed that because right if I if I I go off on tangents but I will always bring us back. Yeah for sure one of those tools as a therapist for sure yeah um and while doing that I applied again with the Navy because I'm um resilient and relentless when I want something and I think when when you know a challenge happens and I don't get it I want it more sometimes. So I pursued it again and did the whole process all over good for you. And I was doing that and while doing that I applied to graduate school okay because I had to wait again for my waivers to go through at the time there was a huge expense cutbacks with the Department of Defense. So they weren't really taking waivers as much so I was trying to be hopeful but reasonable at the same time knowing that I already attempted it and didn't get in.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

And after another year plus again I was rejected so which I kind of had an idea would happen. But I did everything all over again and it's a process and it's a commitment. But I got into grad school and all around that time I I feel like things happen for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

I really do. Yeah even though they can be so hard they are challenging I do feel that way. Yeah me too and I think look where you are now and look what you're about to tell everybody what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah you're figuring it all out.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah and you know all that crafted who I am and I developed a lot of tools right and and you know my style as as as a therapist right and just who I am as a person I think came through a lot of that resilience right and and just meeting a lot of wonderful individuals who you know have really big hearts and and want to serve with a purpose right and uh it's beautiful. Yeah it is it's awesome it's amazing um you know I've met such amazing people you know and I'm just gonna cut it short but throughout my process I attempted other things as well and with you know different branches of the military like the army um and and um and the Marine Corps and things like that you know at different times but I met such amazing people throughout that process and people who who want to serve you know I mean there's a big purpose there right and if you're willing to kind of give that sacrifice for yourself your families I mean it takes special people to be wanting to do that so it does and I was just about to say you're very special. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

You know I have to ask you how did your family feel about you wanting to go into the military because this is not a secret it's not as common for Jewish families to for Jewish kids to go into the military and I I I I am thinking about an old friend right now I'm just gonna do a shout out my friend Stuart Wolfer. I was in BBYO with him. Oh wow you were in BBYO I was very okay very active in BBYO in South Florida. Oh wow and um I lived in Dade and he lived in Broward but all the uh were you in BBYO? I wasn't my brother was though actually okay so like I went to Pennsylvania for ILTC which is international leadership training conference and I was very involved at the regional level and council level and in my in my specific sorority but he went into the into the military and he passed away and at at war and um this was so many years ago I can't even tell you how many but um I am curious what your family how your family I mean do you have typical like nervous parents?

SPEAKER_01 32:42

My my mom. Yeah she's typical Jewish nervous parents yeah she my mom I definitely a lot of worry a lot of anxiety sure um and like I said I was I was a very risky person so I definitely put my parents through a lot I think they were just happy I found something that that kind of put me in a position to strive towards betterment. Yeah yeah um and my dad's side of the family very patriotic because we had a lot of family who served and oh that's beautiful so I think you know he was you know he was you know that that kind of you know you know crafted how he felt about it. But you know they were open to it. And I think they were just you know they saw me how fulfilled and happy I was when I was working towards it. So I think they honored that.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

I want to share a quick quick quick thing with you. My grandfather uh Jack Schaefer he is no longer living he passed away from pancreatic pancreatic cancer many many years ago but he was born in St. Louis and he was given up for um well he wasn't given up for adoption he moved to Cleveland and lived until he was 18 in an orphanage and this is a fascinating story actually he until he was 18 lived in an orphanage and then he went off to the Navy he did he went off to the Navy and then when he was finished with the Navy they settled in Miami Beach and he opened a very successful printing business and I just think about that so much. You know especially in the work that we do he grew up in an orphanage his whole until he was 18 years old. Wow and then went off to the Navy and it's so sad to me. And I remember he would tear up when he would hear a train go by because there was a a train track near the near the orphanage. So into adulthood I remember like because you know we carry trauma in our body yeah he would tear up yeah but I have to just share one other part of the story. It is crazy this is so crazy. So my my grandfather we knew we never knew anything about his family or siblings like my mom didn't really have any aunts uncles or cousins um the day my husband died the day I got a call I didn't recognize the number I answered it because I thought maybe I need to answer this. This could be really important. And this woman says to me on the other line she says you don't know me but your grandfather Jack Schaeffer is my uncle and we have been me and my family have been on what's it called in like ancestry. Oh yeah like 23 and she knows way more about my grandfather than I do. But she happened to call the day my husband passed away and I said oh my gosh this is so bizarre but I have to call you another time because my husband passed away today. Wow and she was like I don't even know I mean she could have thought I was a crazy person. Like she didn't even know me right but she found me on Facebook.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

And um we did talk another time or two but my last three and a half years almost four years have been very very very busy and um hectic and I think I mentioned you my third daughter my my youngest child is about to go off to college and like I've had it in my head like the things that I want to do once that happens and and getting in touch with this cousin is one thing I really want to do but she found my address and she sent me like a plant it was crazy. Yeah like how does that happen that we find out about my my mother's whole side of that of the family on the day my husband dies.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah that's like that's weird that is weird that is weird okay so that's it I'm done with my story.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

No no no it's it's okay I just I had to share that because I was thinking about that part too and I was like it's crazy I think people need to hear this. Yeah and those connections I mean important and and like I said before no such thing as coincidences right yeah she's holding all the information that I want to know about my grandfather so I will be making that call soon and I'd like to get to know her. She's my relative.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah absolutely it's important. Yeah yeah so anyway so so okay so tell us now where where we are yeah so I move forward right and and um I enter into grad school and you know I complete grad school and and you know some life life shows up at different times but um you know definitely some some some challenges along the way and it grad school wasn't hard by itself but balancing life and grad school is usually challenging.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

And did you and you were working?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah I was working as I think at the time uh as a clinical case manager for majority of my my my grad school where where did you work? I worked at the time at a uh Lighthouse Recovery Institute in Boyne Beach and I stopped working there when I had about two semesters left of of my grad school especially when internship picked up a lot. Sure sure yeah things happen but yeah then I move in you know as I was graduating um well I graduated you know and and I made made it through and good for you yeah and then I did take a pause from therapy for a little bit um even though I did some contract work because again you know I I pursued you know this time the army and I was you know I was going for army special forces contract it's called an 18 x-ray contract and I did that for a year and a half and again I had to train back up and qualify and do all those things and I did.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

And then unfortunately as I And that's what happens when you persist and you persevere.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah that's exactly right yeah that's exactly good for you David yeah good for you thank you so but anyways you know I I I made it through and uh not I mean I didn't I didn't get serve I didn't get in all the way but I did qualify and and everything was moving forward and then you know I had something that happened and I you know I I tore my rotator cuff and I had to put my packet on hold and and then I I eventually got back into therapy um and you know I got in at the time I was working at Rico. Uh-huh yeah so and I blossomed there and I had really good you know leadership and it was a wonderful place to I love that program.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I don't know what it is now but yeah I think they're they're still around and I yeah no I know they're around but I don't know I mean when I went to go tour and the people that we know who in the community outreach I was really impressed with the program.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah you know it's it's a really solid uh group of individuals who run it a lot of humility in the past you know with different employers there's a lot of micromanagement a lot of ego there's a lot of freedom independence to really craft your style it's great it was it was it was a great place to be yeah good training for you yeah absolutely and and yeah if I was speeding up a little bit you know I eventually after two years of being there I I moved into full-time private practice and build up my case while I was there and uh you know I did help develop and run and maintain the adventure therapy curriculum while I was there.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Okay we have to talk about that. Yeah okay we could talk a lot of that okay how did so that seems obviously just like a uh a no-brainer like an obvious choice for you was this something did they already have the program set up were you like oh my gosh I think it would be amazing if I took this person skydiving or zip lining or whatever like was that your idea? Yes you created this whole program?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Um yeah I mean I I had the idea I pitched it and they said hey put together like a proposal. Yeah put together a proposal and like a system. Exactly and I found a lot of different vendors and things and experiential things that we can do and you know I attached different therapeutic kind of like activities exercises or things that we could build into each of those uh you know excursions and they pushed it forward and I think that experiential work is so incredibly important. It is it is because it's more of a bottom up approach than a top down approach.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Well I have to ask you a question. Sure. I will never forget this and I want I I'm curious. I was at the Global Exchange and I remember Bessel Vanderkolk saying for any of you that do only CBT I hope you're not charging your clients. Yeah and you went to the Beck Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Institute. So when we're done talking about the the adventure training I would love to know like your thought on that. Yeah because I think there is such a place for CBT. I think so too. I really do but I also think that we all have to be doing bottom up work absolutely a bottom up approach.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah absolutely you know because they even train you about that in you know like the the structure of the training program because you could create insight and awareness at the intellectual level. Absolutely but that doesn't create change at the emotional level.

unknown 41:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

And we all know that because we all tell ourselves oh I shouldn't say that or do that when I get angry and then you get triggered again and you do the same example.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Right so you have to do the somatic work.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Let's just talk for a minute because I'm sure a lot of people don't understand what using a bottom up approach means. Yeah but if we're just doing cognitive behavioral therapy and we're only doing talk talk therapy we're basically we're interacting with the prefrontal cortex right which is responsible for decision making and judgment and rationale and logic. Trauma doesn't know those things. Right. Right? So we so what happens is trauma can be stored in the reptilian part of our brain the emotional part of our brain and when our emotional brain takes over we can't even access the prefrontal cortex.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

It shuts down.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

So to start there doesn't really make sense. We need to start from the bottom up. Right absolutely and then return right yeah and so some methods just by the way right are like these advent adventures that you take your clients on or EMDR or hypnotherapy or exposure therapy is a big one too exposure. Yeah we should talk about that too.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah there's a lot to talk about oh my god there's so much to talk about not as much time but um so I'll just kind of do a run like a rundown maybe on adventure therapy.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah please okay so what is adventure therapy right when you hear what what do you think what do I think to myself yeah well I think that you're okay I don't know why I'm overthinking this but you know like I jumped I was skydiving once with my son that like changed me it totally changed me right like I say to myself if I can jump out of a plane I can do anything. And I think that's a big component of it. I also think that the body what we were just talking about somatically we have to experience I could tell you all day long you can do it. You can do it face the fear do it anyway but if we have a safe supportive person with the tools doing those things with us and they see that they can do it then they're like wait a minute now I don't have to be scared to go on that interview or I don't need to be scared to talk to my wife about this. Or I don't because I jumped out of a plane I can do anything. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Absolutely that self-efficacy grows with you. Yeah self-effective yes exactly because like you know what you do in one thing you usually do in all things absolutely right so like you said so adventure therapy isn't just doing an adventure based activity right exactly we we try to dose right the activities and experiences based on you know increasing levels of discomfort so you can activate that bottom up approach.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

And this is all exposure therapy.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

It is it's it's essentially it's adventure based Exposure therapy. Right. Right. Um, with uh you know a trained therapist, right, who's there to kind of guide you in that process.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

So like And and if they're like, oh my god, I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't do it, and then you lead them through like breathing, or you might bilateral or whatever it is, right? To get them to that place where they feel that they can do it. They're not so sure, but they are gonna do it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Right. And let's talk about that, break it down a little more. I can't do it, right? That belief is gonna come up for them in multiple areas of life when they hit that stress response. Yes, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Say that again in the camera. Because do you know how many people there are walking around this world saying, I can't do it, I'm not capable.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

And it's all connected. So, you know, essentially, you know, I don't even I think my my brain ready to move past, but you know, when we get stressed out, all those negative core beliefs they come up, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:47

The core beliefs of I can't do it, I'm not capable, I'm not good enough.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Why wouldn't anybody why what would possibly give me the idea that I could do that?

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah, absolutely. All that self-doubt, it comes up because that's all connected to that that midbrain, right? That like you know, that that emotional pattern memory comes up when it's similar. Because that part of the brain doesn't know whether or not it's helpful or hurtful, it just knows like this is what it's been in the past. So it's all tied.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

And it's retraining our nervous system because our nervous systems, you know, are wired really to be safe. That's like the most primitive need that we have. And so so many people are walking around in that freeze, fight, flight response or fawn, right? We could talk about that another day. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't talk about the fawn response. That's like, to me, that's all I work with. All my clients really have such a fawn response. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yes. Yeah, I get a lot of the the attack response.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

I don't get as much of that.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

I don't. I get a lot of freeze.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Oh, you do?

SPEAKER_02 45:51

I get a lot of flight. I get a lot of avoidance.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Yeah, me too. And anytime there's an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Of course, there's always avoidance.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Yeah, absolutely. Um, but yeah, everything you're talking about, that's exactly what what we do. Um, you know, and we we don't do it like to be hurtful, like just like if you're doing exposure therapy. You don't start with the most intense exposure. You kind of develop a hierarchy and it's you titrate. Yeah, exactly. You kind of build that confidence up and and desensitize it. So we start out, you know, if the nervous system gets activated, we do some grounding, you know, you know, breath work, really accenting those deeper exhales. So we start.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Do you ever need a partner? I'm right there with you.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Awesome. I gotta I gotta get you.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

No, like serious. I don't mean like a partner partner. I mean like on any of these like we should talk about this. This could make an amazing okay, we're gonna talk about this later.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, another another thing to talk about. Yeah, there's so much. Um so you know, that's pretty much it. We're we're introducing right therapy and adventure-based at the same time. So yeah, excursions and environment where we pause, we reflect, we do the skills in real time, right? Compared to just sitting down doing cognitive-based therapy or talk therapy where we talk about it, we just develop insight about it. Exactly. But you know, here, you know, we're doing it in real time. We get to see people's usual emotional reactions, you know, whether it's avoidant or it's critical or it's you know controlling, or you know, that trauma comes up or that anxiety comes up, and and we have to do some cognitive restructuring with the I can't or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

You are saying so many important things.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah, there's so much important aspects to it. And it's that's why experiential therapy is so important, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Well, it makes me think of when, you know, because I do a lot of hypnosis for people, I do it as part of my regular practice. Obviously, if that's what's called for and everybody's in agreement, and I'm not gonna do it with somebody who's not comfortable, obviously. Um, but I also do it just for specifics, right? Like just to quit smoking, not just. I mean, I know that's really hard to do. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Smoking cessation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

But you know, or fear of flying or fear of driving on the highway, or and I've offered, like there actually there was one guy, he he's flying no problem right now. Like he's doing an amazing, he's amazing it's done, it's over, right? Like he flies everywhere. But when we were in the early stages, we talked about taking a flight together.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

We did, and I was so willing. We were gonna like just take a flight to Tampa.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

I was like, can we go to Burns if we go to Tampa? Do you know what that is? No, I don't. I haven't been to Tampa very much. It's like a very old famous steakhouse. Oh, is it? And it's very different than any, like, it's not like an Avon Lewis. Like it's it's uh a big part of the uh it's just you can do like a number one in the United States. I think it is number one in the United States, yeah. Oh wow. And I grew up in Miami and my parents. I did. I didn't know that. I grew up in Miami and I was I grew up born and raised, and then I went off to college, and then I went to New York City, and then I came back, and then I got my master's in Tampa. However, when I was growing up, we would go to Busch Gardens, and so we always went to Burns. So even when I was pregnant with my first child, I said to my husband Adam, I'm like, I'm really craving burns. Like, we have to go to Tampa. I don't know if your wife had that where she had like really strong cravings.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Sometimes you did, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 49:09

But I was craving burns.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

And so I went to grad school there. My daughter lived there for a couple years, and we we it's it's not cheap, but it's so much food, it makes it well worth it. You can go into their wine cellar, they you get a tour of the wine cellar, of the kitchen. They have a separate dessert room upstairs with probably 300 desserts. It's so cool. You should try to go there one day.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

It sounds like a place I'd really like to go. It sounds like an experience. I love old style steakhouses.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Oh my god. And the wine, I think, is number one.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Really?

SPEAKER_02 49:39

The wine list, the wine, the what do you call it? I'm not a drinker.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Like their wine collection?

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Sure, that sounds about right.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Is I think number one in the world. Thank you for that, Janine. I was gonna say that, but I wasn't sure if it still was or is. I have no idea. But anyway, so I'm curious, what are some of the things that you've done? What are some of the adventures you've taken your clients on? Do they sometimes request? I'm sure you talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah. So it dep, you know, I do it with individuals and but I also do contract work with facilities, which is the bulk of what I do for adventure therapy just because of the limitations of my my my current schedule because I meet with about 30 clients a week individually.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Oh my god. And you have a newborn and you're taking the 3 a.m. feeding.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

And I'm doing all that. And you're doing the adventure. And I do the adventure therapy groups once a week. Right now I'm doing it with Intrepid um as their you know adventure therapist. Um so usually, you know, it's a combination of uh horseback riding. I love. Yeah, which is different from equan therapy. This is the actual like horseback riding, uh, snorkeling, kayaking. Um we also will do a high ropes course, low ropes course, rock climbing, which is really helpful, actually. Um, mindfulness-based walks at different, you know, different places. Um mindfulness is a big part of adventure therapy also. Absolutely. You know, as as with all kind of therapy, a mindfulness is a big part of it.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Well, mindfulness is I mean, we should all be practicing mindfulness all the time. We're not. I mean, I'm guilty. Yeah, sure. I try, you know. Even when I eat or when I walk or when I clean the dishes, I just you know, or when I'm driving, or when I'm listening to a song, or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

But it's I'm not always Yeah, me neither, even though I preach it all the time and I have to remind myself to do the skills. If I don't if I don't do the skills, I don't I don't get more grounded, right? It's a practice.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

What's the m biggest adventure? Like, have you ever taken a client to jump out of a plane or no, no, I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Usually um, biggest adventures usually are doing you know more extended uh snorkel kai adventures where we're kind of combining the two.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Um you'll go swim with like the sharks. No kidding. You don't do that, do you?

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Not with clients. I mean, I would.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

You wouldn't because you're an adrenaline junkie.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah, me and my wife have done that. You know, we've done the Jupiter shark dive, sure.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Wow, where did you meet her?

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Um, so actually, when I was finishing up with grad school and I was processing into the army at the time, I took a job bartending um because it was something that allowed me to train a lot and I didn't need to work a lot.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Where? Where did you bartend?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Ocean One Bar and Grill.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Probably made a good money there.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Uh, we made decent money. Yeah. They were a much cheaper place, but we stayed very busy. It wasn't like a late night bar, it was more of a professional older crowd. Um, so it was a good vibe. We got done at like 10 or 11 o'clock at the time. That's nice. Yeah. So, and my wife was a teacher, and sh, you know, she needed to make extra money. So she bartended and oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Yeah, so we're beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

We met working.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

You probably could have said anything, and I would have said, Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

She and she's beautiful, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

And your son, we I know we just talked about this, but I have to say it on camera, may have the biggest cheeks of a two-month-old that I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

He's a good eater.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

He he is a good eater. He's been he's been taking it down. He definitely he gets those cheeks from the house.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

He's gonna be a big boy.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

I think so. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

How tall are you?

SPEAKER_01 52:52

I'm six foot.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

You're tall. You're six foot? Yeah. Oh my god, when you walk, I mean, obviously I've seen you a million times.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Maybe we're sitting by the time I see you. I don't know. But when you walked in, I'm like, God, he really is taller than I remember.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah, yeah. Uh it's um, I have to remind myself sometimes because when I when when I think of myself, I don't think of myself as as someone who's taller. But then when I see other people who are six foot six, one, I'm like, wow, that guy looks pretty tall. And then I'm like, wait a minute, we're like the same height.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

So Janine, when David walked in, didn't he have like a presence? He did, right? Yeah. She's shaking her head, yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

That's nice to hear. What kind of presence was it?

SPEAKER_02 53:26

What kind of presence? It was a strong presence. Oh, was it strong, powerful? Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And I would obviously just not say anything about it if I didn't think that. Oh, thank you. But um, yeah. So what what are the main tools that you've been using to build resilience through your life? Like uh, and you're about to enter into uh I don't know what do we call it the reserves? Are you gonna be in the reserve? What are you gonna be in? Army National Guard.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

So you're having that dream fulfilled. Yeah. So it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah, because that's a process. Um my words went through and um just trying to work out all the last minute kinks.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Oh, okay. So that's still in process.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Yeah, well, I processed I processed, but now it's just getting it lined up with the newborn and scheduling and time for all of that. But um good luck. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

I mean, I don't think you need it.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

If you need a reference, I'll write one.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Show them the podcast. They'll see how wonderful, how wonderfully put together you are. I mean, you're very articulate. Um I'm I don't think they're looking for articulate. I think they're looking for good, strong people who can, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

I mean it's a combination. It's it's different nowadays. It's not like it was back in a day where go to jail or go to the army. So it's you know, they're picking from a much higher selection, right? Because so many people are wanting to join, especially with all the media presence now.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

So but um can they not can they not make people join anymore when they turn 18 if they needed it?

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Well, there's you know, um I fear that's like what it was. Right. I mean, they usually don't I mean 18 to 26 are required, right, to sign a selective service. I think it's the selective service agreement where if if there is a draft, you know, you are required to fulfill that duty or else, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Yeah, but what if you don't sign up?

SPEAKER_01 55:02

Uh there's penalties. I don't know exactly what they are.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

No, no, no. What if you don't even sign up between 18 and 26 to be called?

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Yeah. If you they they were well, I think once you turn 18, you're required to sign it. Right? Still? Yeah, still like it's something we do you do when you're like turning 18.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Wait, did my son sign that?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Everybody signs it.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Really?

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah. It it but again, there's no draft, right? Or anything like that. So it's a pure volunteer force right now. So everybody who's in is volunteer.

SPEAKER_05 55:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Um, but you know, they do have the option to call upon them between those ages of 18 and 26.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

And by the way, I don't know why I said son. I have two daughters who go into this as well.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Right. So I'm sure they they probably signed it also.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Uh I don't know. My daughter just turned 18. I don't remember anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Yeah. I'm I'm interested now. It's been a while. I'm so curious.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Can you get back to me when you find out? Because I know you're gonna research it.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

I will. As soon as you get to the drive, you are. I'll Google it as soon as we get done with it. Um but you know, some of the tools I practice is you know, once I learned how to sit with my emotions instead of constantly trying to avoid them.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Amen. Thank you for saying that. Can you talk about that in the camera? I'm I'm not kidding. That is so incredibly important.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

And it's an extremely powerful tool because if you don't release that emotion, right, we project it and it creates a lot of unhealthy tendencies, right? And I we don't even know that we're projecting from the past.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

Talk about what it is to sit with your emotions.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

It's hard. It's it's being mindful when you get really triggered and all that deep-seated kind of stuff starts to come up.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

And it's like a surge.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

It's a surge, right? And sometimes it makes you want to just avoid the situation or defend yourself, or it could be emptiness or loneliness. That was a big one for me that I had to learn to sit with and master. And it's you know, I I took on the belief that you know, anything that triggers that is give me, you know, an experience to be able to let it go. And an opportunity, an opportunity to let it go.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Really important.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah, and it was a different mindset for me. Instead of so I would learn to just sit and I would breathe through it and I would watch as that emotion kind of ran its course. Um which is a lot of somatic based work, right? So a lot of you know, deep breath work without emotion. Instead of just you know, going into the mind and thinking all the thoughts based on the emotion, I'd go into the body and I just breathe with it until it passed, and then I come back to a state of more peace and harmony. Because if you actually give that emotion time and attention, yeah, it was it 15, 20 minutes of feeling uncomfortable until it eventually moves around.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

And it's not always 15 or 20, it could be less, it could be more.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

Sure, absolutely, right? Um, and and yeah, so that was a big tool for me. And learning um how to shift my belief systems and learning what they were when they came up, right? Those really deep-seated, deep-seated shame-based, you know, beliefs about it.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

You had a good therapist.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah, I I did.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

I mean, I'm assuming that you had a therapist, and I if you did, that person was really good. Because I'm listening to you talk and not a lot of therapists. I mean, uh you know that there's a spectrum for everything. Sure, absolutely. Right, right, right. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah, which is another tool.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Like just I'm thinking about how lucky your clients are that they found you.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Because you're actually doing the work. Not you know, I know people who don't even who are therapists who don't go to therapy, who are who never really went to therapy.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah. And it's important. Yeah. I mean, because we all have that, right? And if we don't process it, where does it go?

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

It it creates uh all sorts of uh mishaps. Right. And not only not I mean, not only does it interfere with your relationship with yourself and relationships with everybody around you and your relationship with the world, but it also creates all sorts and I've talked about this before here, but you know, it t it affects your sleep, it could affect your immune system, it can cause cancer and heart disease and all these things. A lot of people just don't want to believe that. Yeah, I feel like until it like happens to them, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yeah, which I think is just an avoidance justification, right? And and also I want to say it's it's ignorant because the research is there. I know, right? So, like if you're misinformed and and you're stating opinions as facts, right, then you're robbing yourself of the potential to like be a better version of you. But I think a lot of people avoid it because they don't want to have to look in the mirror and and deal with this, they'd rather focus on all the distractions.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Of course, and it's not easy, it's painful. It is, but if we nurture ourselves through that emotion, it it it can really be very comforting, right? Like I I know that it can be very hard to experience some of those emotions, but if I I will not stop them, but I might go for a walk, or I might go hug my dogs, or I might go play with a baby. I go I do that a lot with Luna's baby. I'm not even kidding. I mean, we have a relationship, I don't you know what I mean, and I love her, yeah, and all the kids and Luna, uh everybody, and us off too. Um but that was a big one. After Adam died, I was like, Luna, I need a visit.

unknown 59:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

I was in the hospital with them when she was a a day old.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Oh wow. Yeah, and how was that for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

It was amazing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

It was, it was a therapy. I I appreciate you asking me that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

But I'm very, I'm very conscious about what when I need additional self-care, and I'm very intentional about what self-care I practice at the time because one day a walk may not cut it, or one day like I have to go in and explore and ask myself like what is it that my system needs right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Sure. Yeah, and that's a really important question. And I don't think I think a lot of people don't take the time to ask that kind of question. Right. And they assume, oh, go, I'm going to the gym, or you know, I do this. But some of those things could also be avoidant, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Absolutely, right. That's true, very true. But I also uh and taking it one step further, it's also about who we surround ourselves with. Like some people are good for a nervous system, some people are not so good for a nervous system. And I don't know, I'm at a stage in my life where like I know I need to protect my nervous system. I know that I'm my children's only parent, and I need to stay as healthy as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

And once your nervous system goes, like it's all over, right? Not really. I mean, we neuroplasticity, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Thank God for neuroplasticity.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Sure, but like you, you know, if we're we're constantly surrounded by people, right, or situations that trigger the nervous system, then we're just living in a constant state of survival. And that's no way to live.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

Oh my god, you're constantly in the stress response. Cortisol up the wazoo, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yeah, yeah. And that's horrible, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:27

It's not a good place to be. No, no, no, definitely not. It's not. But I do have to say, after my husband, oh my god, we're gonna have to wrap up in a minute. After my husband passed away, I was in my adrenaline was like uh off the chain. And I am obviously, I mean, it's it's there to also protect you. We have to remember that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

But in this world that we live in, our nervous system sometimes gets a little confused about when we're really in danger or when we're not in danger.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

And after my husband passed away, it's a it was a good thing that I had such adrenaline. I was able to get so much done in that period.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

And then when I noticed, after like, I don't know how many months, it could have been six, nine months. Then I was like, I couldn't do anything. Yeah. Then I was just like, oh my God, I just did so much. You know what I mean? Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

I'm sure what a what a crash after that. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

It was crazy. So we just have to be mindful. Yeah. We have to be mindful and provide to our systems what they need at the time. And there was something else I wanted to say about that. Um, I was just gonna ask you, you know, people don't want to do feelings because it it's hard, it's difficult work and it's painful. And a lot of people were shamed and may still be shamed when they uh show an emotion or experience emotion.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

Big part, good point. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

Which uh, you know, it's and then and then if you're conditioned to not feel or express, uh it it takes a lot of hard work to access those emotions.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Absolutely, because that part of the brain is not used to firing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Right? And it's not used to producing that same chemical reaction, right? Which comes up as an emotion from the nervous system. So like I think, you know, you you know, I I heard uh Phil Trieber, right? He talks a lot about men's psychology, went to one of his talks. He talked about normative male lexithymia, which pretty just means like, hey, that part of the brain of men isn't activated as much, so we don't have the emotional vocabulary expression, right? Right that people who are usually accustomed to experiencing emotions and given permission to feel and express have. And and that's that's that's very true. Some people they want to feel, but they're just they just can't. And how do you get that train going? Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:35

After after my husband passed away, I mean, I definitely was c conditioned not to cry. So I am not a crier, but you know, after my husband passed away, I could feel it. Like I needed to get it out. I needed to. And I did find some things, and I really that helped connect me to my sadness. Like I was sad, but I wanted to cry because it's so healthy and it's such a release, and it's so good for us to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

And it's funny, you know, right? We're talking to people and they're like, I'm sorry, I might cry today. And I'm like, go for it, please. Like it'll you'll feel so much better, right? Yeah, and so like I found certain songs, right? Or movies, or I always if if it's a movie like about family dynamics or relationships, I tend to cry. So I would literally go towards those movies.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Yeah, that part of you is craving that emotion.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna wrap up, David. But I just want to say thank you so much. And I want you to just tell people where they can find you. I think you're amazing. I do want to um put a spotlight on the fact that you also do a lot of work with OCD and the exposure therapy and the adventure. And I think that that is not a lot of not something that like you have a big tool toolbox for your clients, right? I try to do it. Because not everything works, you know, we have to try different things with different people.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

That's why I got uh trained in hypnosis and EMDR.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

I uh which was many years ago, long before the Stoneman Douglas shooting, which is when a lot of people got trained in EMDR, but uh you have to work with the subconscious mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

You do.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

There's no way to do this without working with I uh for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

Absolutely for me, and I think coming out of grad school, you realize how limited you are in creating positive change, right? Right? Because talk therapy is so limited unless somebody just wants to vent and that's what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

But absolutely not, but that's almost re-traumatizing sometimes. It can be, it can be I mean, sure. Some people just need to release and talk and know that they are in a safe space and get it out. Absolutely, there's definitely a need for that. Yeah, some people just want an audience as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

Like a soundboard, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Well, no, no. Some people want an audience so that they can maintain their victimhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Yeah. Mm hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

And that's not really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

No. No, I I agree, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

So tell everybody where they can find you. Okay. And uh and then we'll we'll say. Our goodbyes. Okay, great. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on here. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Absolutely. Absolutely. I wouldn't miss it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

I knew I knew I was on the mark when I asked you to come in. You know, this is, I think, this will be I think 15. Really? When this comes out, it'll be my 15th episode that has come out. But to me, that's still relatively new. And I just have to say, I'm having the best time. Like, I enjoy so much sitting here with you. And like, I'm such a curious person. Like, this gives me permission that I can just sit here and ask you whatever I want to ask you. Unless, of course, you said something was off limits.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

People used to call me Barbara Walters. I think I talked about that before. Yeah, because I'm like uh crazy off the top curious about everybody and everything. And I'm sure this would help. Like, I'm curious. Like, I love how the brain works and dying behavior, like all of it, like human behavior.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

And that's great, though. I just love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

Like awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Yeah, I am too. And I think that's helped me as a therapist. I'm sure it's helped you absolutely taking like a live.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

I want to go to like every single training. I still want to get a doctorate. Not because I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:04

Because not because it'll change my career, but because I want to learn about all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

Absolutely. Likewise. All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

So t so what is your like website or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

So my office is is located in East Boca. Um, but you can find me on InvictusSec.com, right? Or you can give me a call at 561-450-9440. I'm open to all calls or consultations. I'd just love to find out how I could help and and you know, kind of like.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

And you can always call me if you were interested. I mean, adventure therapy. That's amazing. I think we have to blow this up a little bit. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:35

Yeah, and you start seeing you know, a lot more places are doing it now. So yeah, people are starting to catch on to it. So thank you so much, David. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, David Cohen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:44

This was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

Thank you. Awesome. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

And remember, folks, the Present Moment Project is intended for informational and inspirational purposes only. The views and opinions shared by the host and guests are their own and do not constitute medical, legal, or professional advice. Please consult a qualified healthcare professional before making any medical or wellness decisions. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care, no matter how wise we may sound in this present moment.