The Present Moment Project

Ep. 18 - When You Lose Someone and Nobody Has the Right Words

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Bryan Martin lost his partner Clayton in 2018 after a bizarre accident during yard work which led to a fungal infection, a missed diagnosis, and liver failure within months. He also lost his father that same year. What followed was grief compounded by invisibility — a doctor in the ER dismissed him because he and Clayton weren't married, and people around him minimized the loss for the same reason. Bryan talks about what it actually felt like to move through those years, including the fog of early grief, the anger of year two, and the isolation of the pandemic that eventually pushed him toward dancing in his kitchen on TikTok.

That dancing became something neither of us expected. Bryan now has 1.2 million Facebook followers who show up every morning for his kitchen dance videos with a cup of coffee. He talks about how that started not as content but as survival — a way to give himself something to look forward to when the world shut down and there was nothing else. What grew out of it, including parents messaging him to say they finally understood their gay children better, is something he still doesn't fully have words for.

We talk about the strange timeline of grief — how four years or eight years can feel both endless and impossibly fast, how certain moments cut through the fog without warning, and why the people who haven't been through it often say the most inadvertently hurtful things. Bryan also wrote a book, The Widow Dancer, compiled from five years of blog posts he wrote for a widowed support organization. He talks about going back and reading all of it, and crying straight through.

There's also a conversation here about what it means to be widowed without being married, and why that distinction shouldn't matter but still does — in hospitals, in social circles, in how people respond to your grief. Bryan is remarried now, to Devin, who by the way is very cute. But the throughline of this whole conversation is the same one that started it: you lose your person, and that's what it is.

Contact Jill K. Bershad, LMHC, CAP



SPEAKER_04

Hi friends, I am Jill Burshad, and this is the Present Moment Project. Come with me on a journey of healing, transformation, and curiosity. I'm a licensed mental health counselor, a Reiki master, hypnotherapist, a sound healer, and a DMPR trauma therapist who also is a widow. I have learned how to move through life with grace in the aftermath of tragedy. I have learned how to use these modalities through my own healing journeys. I hope you're listening, and I know that this podcast will help you through your healing journey as well. It's not always easy, but you too can laugh again. I look forward to having you along this wild ride with me. So here we go. Let's get started. Hello, friends. I am Jill Bershad with the Present Moment Project Podcast. And today I'm on Zoom with Brian Martin. And I have to tell you, I have never met or spoken with Brian. Hi, Brian.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, how are you?

SPEAKER_04

I am so good. I'm so excited. Okay, so we have to tell everybody how this happened. This is crazy. So I told we've spoken through email. That's it. So through email, I emailed Brian not that long ago. And I told you that my husband had passed away almost four years ago. And then after I after he passed away, I was scrolling on Facebook one day and I saw your video and I was hooked. And I'm not typically a scroller like that, and I don't typically get hooked on stuff like that. But as you know, because you've also lost somebody so special to you, you're it's things are just different, right? And the times that I was scrolling, half the time I don't even know what I was looking at. I was probably just like, you know what I mean? But I saw your video and I was hooked. And so, Brian, how long ago did you lose your partner?

SPEAKER_00

Uh he passed away. It was eight years ago last month.

unknown

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04

I knew it was longer for you than it was for me, but I wasn't sure exactly how long. So I don't even know like what to say first because did that whole thing that you do on Facebook come as a result of losing your it did?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the whole reason it all happened. Um it was that was like 2017 and 2018 were rough. My my dad had passed away. Um and I wasn't even 40 at the time. And then my partner and I, um, we had moved to Florida, hadn't had we were gonna plan to get married and all that, just hadn't gotten all that figured out. We had moved together from Atlanta down to Florida for my work at the time, and um he ended up digging in his mom's yard, strangest, weirdest thing ever. Um, he was helping her, she bought a house near us, he was helping her do the landscaping, and he saw that plastic coating that people put under the ground to keep weeds from coming up. Yes, and so he was grabbing it to pull it. But what he didn't realize is this the spot wasn't the a weed barrier. It was actually a a bag. It was the old owner's pet they had buried back there. And so his hand went through and got covered in stuff and he wiped it on his leg and then he went and took a shower, right? Because that's just what you do, something gross, and you're like, oh, get it off me. Um, and then probably three or four days later, he started to get a little bit of like a rash on his leg, and it was ringworm, and it ended up, which is in Florida, people get it all the time, right? But it was like a mutant variety. It went into his system and then they started to put him on um antifungals, but they weren't testing his liver, so they kept upping the dose without checking to see his liver values, and they put him into liver failure. So four months after my dad died, he was officially deemed um terminally ill, and I had to take care of Clayton for eight. They told me eight months I had seven, and then he passed away. Um and after that, that was 2018. I was trying to get my life back together. 2019, I was traveling a lot because I didn't want to be at my house because it was our apartment. I did just I wanted to go. And then 2020, and I was stuck at home and I couldn't go anywhere. I wasn't around my family. I was so dis I was so depressed. It was awful. I was just, I mean, I probably weighed a good 30 or 40 pounds more than I do now. Um, I wasn't going out anywhere, I wasn't social, I was just really miserable. And a friend of mine was like, You should look at TikTok. At least these people are you love dancing, you always love to dance, and everyone's stuck inside being goofballs. This is perfect for you. So I started to watch that, and then I said, you know what? I'll just heck, I'll just do one for the heck of it, just to give myself something to do, because I would go to work, feed the animals because I was essential, and then come home because the aquarium wasn't open. So I was just by myself all day long. And um, I posted a video on TikTok, me just dancing, just to give me something to do, and I shut my phone off. I woke up the next morning, I think I had like 10,000 followers. I do what happened. It was crazy. Yeah, and that just kept building, and so it gave me something to look forward to every single day. Um, was get up, have your cup of coffee, find a song just to get you moving, Brian. Like you've nobody else is gonna fill the spark, nobody can because the world shut down. You've got to do it yourself. And so I started to do that. Uh, ended up being on the Kelly Ripa, Ryan Seacrest when he was a host. I I won their dance contest.

SPEAKER_01

No way!

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and then I have a little coffee mug from them. It's really cool. Um, and then Facebook Meta bought Instagram and said, We're doing this too. And they started to put stuff on reels, and Facebook's my jam. Like, that's just I grew up with that. I had a MySpace, I'm that old. But Facebook was where everyone was. So, and I knew TikTok was kind of flooded. So I was like, why don't I just do this for all the people? All my family is here, they're worried about me. I can show them what I'm doing on TikTok now, here and dance in my kitchen with a cup of coffee and help everybody else get their morning going. And that's how it all started. 1.2 million Facebook followers later, and here we are.

SPEAKER_04

Did you hear that? 1.2 million Facebook followers later, and you have I mean, maybe you do know, you did this for you, and you have definitely made a difference. So this is where I was going with this whole thing, is that after my husband died, I was scrolling and I saw your video, and I was so hooked. And I would go on and I would look for for the videos every day. And I did ask you if there's anything I'm allowed, if I'm that I'm not allowed to say, and you said there's nothing. So as I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm thinking to myself, you need to get up and do one of your your things. I mean, like right now, but before you do, and I'm hoping you will, what's your favorite? What's your favorite?

SPEAKER_00

Like my favorite song?

SPEAKER_04

The favorite one that you've done, or the one that's been the most popular. What's gotten the most views for you?

SPEAKER_00

Um, well, I think one of the ones that was most popular, uh, I did a dance with a sea lion at the aquarium that I used to work at. Oh, I saw that.

SPEAKER_04

I saw that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. To fancy like by Walker Hayes. And Walker shared it, and then CMT asked if they could use it at the CMT Music Awards. I didn't see it. They were showing like all the celebrities in the audience while they were playing different videos, so it popped up there, I guess. Um, so I didn't see it on the TV, but they said they used it. So that was really fun. Um gosh, I don't, it's so hard. There's so many of them. Um I think I did like ABBA, like Dancing Queen, and that kind that went viral. That's I think upwards of like seven or eight million views already, and that's been run. It still runs. I still get notifications.

SPEAKER_04

Um I want to see that one. I want to see that one. That's the one.

SPEAKER_00

It's so hard to pick because there's just so many, and it's a lot of it is songs too. Like I I listened to music growing up. That my dad loved listening to music. That's what we had on the house, usually rarely the TV. Um, as he as he used to call it, the boob tube. Right, right, right, right. Uh so we had music on, and he would just he'd be dancing around the house and doing a so it was all this old like 80s, 90s, 70s, 60s music. It's I love it all.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sure my music. What's your favorite song?

SPEAKER_00

Oh. Um top three.

SPEAKER_04

And and and wait, let me let me change that question. Because there's songs for different moods too, right? And so I know that I'm I I I have a very hard time crying, and I always have. And I really needed to access my tears after my husband died. Like it was in there. I felt it. I needed to get it out. And I did, I did cry a lot at the beginning, but as time went by, I still felt things building up in there, and I wanted to get it out, and I would put on certain songs. Oh, I'm gonna tell you which one actually. It is Rascal Flats Bless This Broken Road.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_04

You know that song, right? It's so beautiful. Yep, it's such a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00

Um, actually, the lead singer, he follows me. I was very surprised when he sent me a message.

SPEAKER_04

I I honestly, Janine, this is the truth. And I know I talked to you during the podcast, which is weird, but listen, um, I had no idea I was talking to like a celebrity today.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not kidding. No.

SPEAKER_04

You have to see these videos. He's just like a normal person. So I'm like a normal person.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just a normal person.

SPEAKER_04

Listen, this is what I want to say to you. We have a lot of locations in common. So you know I spent a lot of time on Panama City Beach because I went to FSU for spring break. I also lived in Boston. And you're wearing a and you're wearing a Fenway hat right now. And I spent a lot of time in Atlanta. That's where my son just graduated from Atlanta. And I, my daughter, my youngest daughter just graduated high school. Well, the ceremony's next week. Today was her last day of school.

SPEAKER_01

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_04

Let's just take a moment to say congratulations, Jolie. Listen, her father died when she was going into high school.

SPEAKER_00

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04

It's a lot. And today was her last day of class. So she's going to New York City for college. She's going to Pace University. She thinks she wants to be a nurse, maybe something in psychology. She's not a hundred percent. But on August 28th, when I drop her off, I think I'm gonna get on a train to Boston, and you and I are gonna meet.

SPEAKER_00

That'd be super fun. Hopefully, we'll be up there. This house needs to sell you know where else vibes.

SPEAKER_04

But you know where else I want to go? I've never been, and I'm a Floridian, a native Floridian, to um uh uh 32? Is it called 32?

SPEAKER_00

30A.

SPEAKER_04

30A, I'm sorry, 30A, yeah. It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

Not even 30 minutes from here. This this beautiful highway right along the water with all these unbelievably beautiful, like big beach houses. You can rent them.

SPEAKER_04

And you walk and you can walk and go through different towns, right? Yeah, oh yeah. I would love to get there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, depending on which town you're in, it could feel like you know, an upscale beach town or like rosemary beach has a very Mediterranean vibe. Cafes and yes.

SPEAKER_04

Nice.

SPEAKER_00

You'd love it here.

SPEAKER_04

That sounds nice. Well, I said to you when we first got on, all the greenery in the back is not how I envision Panama City at all. Look how beautiful that is.

SPEAKER_00

We live in a nature preserve, so we're about 10 minutes away from the beach, up tucked in away from all the tourists. So um there's only a certain number of lots where people can have their homes, and then everything else has to stay. You can't cut this down. But we have bears and deer and bobcats and all sorts of stuff comes through, and we just sit here and watch them all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And you really just want to not that you can't get that in Massachusetts, obviously you can get all that too. But what what brings you back there? Just your family, you want to be close to the family.

SPEAKER_00

Family, yeah. I mean, I've been gone from there since I moved to San Diego first in 2004 to train dolphins and sea lions for the Navy. Um surprise. I did that too, and I always get that look. Um, so I did that for a while and then and I didn't get to see my family because it was you know three-hour time difference, and it was very hard for me. I love the animal world, but there's a lot of restraints people don't realize. And um, and it's hard to get a job, so I was always away from my family, and then I moved to Atlanta to be closer, worked at the Georgia aquarium there, but still it was tough to get time off. My dad was sick. I should have gone up to help take care of him, but there was a lot of tension um at work and stuff with things, and so I didn't because I thought perhaps I would not have a job or something like that, um, just because of the situation that we were all in. And um, and so he ended up uh I moved to Florida, which gave me more freedom as a supervisor so I could travel a bit more, and then he passed away. Um, so I've been kind of everywhere, but also I feel like I've missed a whole lot chasing a dream that my dream my dream has changed now, which it is what it it it is what it is, but I don't want to waste any more time.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I get it. I do, I get it. Wow. So did you did you say that you train seals for the Navy? Did you say that?

SPEAKER_00

Not like the Navy SEALs, like the guys, although I've met about I have some of them are my friends, they're great.

SPEAKER_04

No, I I I realized you were actually training the SEALs.

SPEAKER_00

The sea lions, yeah, sea lions and mostly sea lions.

SPEAKER_04

But for the Navy. Can you explain?

SPEAKER_00

You can look it up. Navy Marine Mammal Program. You can you can find it, yeah. Um, so the what I can tell you is that um uh a lot of what I did was uh recovery. So the sea lions would be trained to look for certain objects, and each object had a spot where they could attach a line to it, and they'd be able to hold. You can see pictures of it on their website. They would hold a bite plate in their mouth that had grabbers and they'd look for the thing, and they'd like, oh, there it is, and they'd click it on and pull back and make sure it was on there, and then they'd come back to me, and then we'd check and make sure if it was dropped by a plane, we could do a latitude and longitude, and that would score a pilot. We could hand over the hand over the line, and the ship would pull it back up so we weren't littering all over the ocean, and they could reuse it. There was they were inert, they were filled with cement.

SPEAKER_04

I thought you just meant that you were recovering maybe people.

SPEAKER_00

Or you know, they have had they have had times where they've had sea lions and dolphins search for people um and try to help in situations like that. Or um, I know because the dolphins use their echolocation um at high tide, they can scan the floor, and if they see anything that happens to be like, you know, they can go mine hunting, um, then they could see it and then mark an area that's not nearby, but we know what it means, and then the military could go in and neutralize whatever the problem was.

SPEAKER_04

That's so interesting. You're so interesting. You are so interesting. You grew up in Massachusetts, right?

SPEAKER_00

Is that what you told me? Brain tree on the South Shore.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, Brain Tree. I couldn't, I we I had asked you that, but I couldn't remember. Really nice. I love it up there. I miss it. I was just up there, and actually, I have a friend coming into town tomorrow from Chestnut Hill.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, I love it up there. Yeah, I'm looking forward to living up there. Um, and we'll see. Well, we'll see what happens when we go up there because we have a lot of followers up there. Uh, we've been on the radio station, Magic 106.7 had us come on, and the DJs there follow us, and they're like, You're gonna be in town, come hang out. And so we've this social media has really opened up like a whole different world. I never would have ever expected, um, just with the sheer volume of people that I've been able to at least hopefully positively influence. Um, but then how it turns around and comes back. Um, like I did uh I did a Taylor Dane song, and she saw it and she commented and messaged me. And so we've chatted, and then I have a friend who also does podcasts for iHeartRadio, and she was going to um she was gonna interview Taylor and asked if I wanted to interview her with her all of us. So I got to interview Taylor Dane on a podcast, which I was not expecting.

SPEAKER_04

She's like a throwback. Wow!

SPEAKER_00

But she is so cool to talk to because she just she just gives it to you how it is. Like she doesn't filter, she's just really, really cool to talk to. Really, very, very cool. Um I love it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's I love how you just she that she doesn't filter. I was I think I said on my last podcast, my love language is authenticity. Especially now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, you have to tell it like it is for sure. And it's that people have asked me like how how to grow their social media, and and I just tell them to be yourself, and they want bells and whistles and special videos. And do I have to edit all of this? And I'm like, I don't do any of that. I just show up as me, and I just pretend everybody is my friend, they're here visiting my house, and I'm just gonna do my thing, and that's really what seems to work the most. All the fancy bells and whistles. I don't have time for it.

SPEAKER_04

They look great, but they do look great, you don't need to do a thing. And I think that's what drew me into it was it is it is so authentic. It is so authentic. In your kitchen, I think it's always in your kitchen, right?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I'll like I'll do stuff like around the neighborhood or if we're in like a cool location. Oh, but if we're traveling, but at my house, it's always in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's always so clean too.

SPEAKER_00

This my husband will appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04

The song that comes to me really, the video that really, really comes to me when I think of you is It's Raining Men.

SPEAKER_00

That was outside, I was in the middle of the street out front of my house that day.

SPEAKER_04

R what are people? I'm just like I'm taken a little aback because I did not know what was gonna happen. I did not know that so I emailed you and I said, you probably are never even gonna see this.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I check everything. I try to answer all my messages. I even check my spam, like all the filtered messages in social media because you just never know when somebody's gonna reach out and it gets filtered. So I check everything.

SPEAKER_04

I emailed you before I knew you had 1.2 million followers and that you met Taylor Dean and that you were eyes. Like I had no no idea. So I'm emailing you saying you probably will never see this, somebody else probably will, and throw it out. I found your email. I don't remember how I felt because it wasn't through Facebook or anything. I found your email, C Lion. Right? C lion, C Lion Brian, for anybody who wants to know. Oh god. Um and um and I said, but I just needed you to know. I needed you to know. And I I do have to say this that um I have a friend who it so there were two people. There were two people after my husband passed away that really would bring a smile to my face. You were one of them, and the other one was Twitch. You know Twitch.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then he took his life not that long. That threw me for a complete loop because my husband took his life after having thank you, after having brain surgery, and then I go to Twitch, and now he takes I I just I that one was hard. So I I email I messaged his wife. I e I messaged his wife and I said the same thing and I said, You're probably never gonna see this. But you were you know, I would watch you and Twitch dance. You know, they would they would always put those them up, the two of them dancing. And a friend of mine actually uh has a podcast and interviewed her. I haven't said anything about that yet. However, I didn't hear back from her, but I heard back from you.

SPEAKER_00

I don't have anybody helping me with like my email or my social media. I do all of that myself. So I'm sure other people, especially at that, you know, size celebrity being married to Twitch, then I mean they probably have some help or maybe even like a marketing team.

SPEAKER_04

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but maybe I try to answer everything that I can. Um, I like that there's filters because sometimes you get you have to be careful on social media because there's some not fully there people that you have to watch out for. Um, but I try to answer everything.

SPEAKER_04

I get it, I get it. So how long was it? You know, I was thinking about this on my drive over to the studio. I don't think I have interviewed anybody else who lost. And I always thought I thought you two were married. I it was like you were married.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Well that it it's a little so that's you bring up something that's a really good point, and people have said that to me. Because I'm married now. I have Devin, my husband, now. Um, we're married.

SPEAKER_04

He's very cute, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, very young John Travolta.

SPEAKER_04

I'm not mad at it. Is he is he home right now? Should we bring him on?

SPEAKER_00

He is upstairs studying for real estate right now.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, good for him. Good luck. Good luck, Devin.

SPEAKER_00

He's got his real estate license in um Oklahoma, where he's from, and then he got it here in Florida, and now that we're moving to Massachusetts, he's gonna get it up there. He loves that stuff, so I'm excited for him. Um that's great. So but uh oh to sorry, to your point, Clayton and I were not married, we didn't have the opportunity. However, what I'd like to point out is marriage isn't for everyone. And for a long time, I grew up in a world where I didn't think I'd ever have the opportunity. Like I couldn't even tell anybody I was gay when I was younger like that would have just been horrible. Um, you know, I was already bullied when I was growing up, I didn't need it getting any worse. And so I never thought that was a thing. And then all of that's past where people could get married, but he and I were moving, his mom was we just never had the opportunity. But for any of your listeners that are out there, if you lose somebody, you lose somebody, regardless if you're married or not. You do not have to go through and have a piece of paper. If you lose your person, you're widowed. That's it. You are, and you can claim that. That is a way for us to understand where we are. Talk, there's plenty of people who they don't even believe in marriage, they but they're all they are together for decades. Um, I just want to validate that for people because I have had people come in and say that that relationship didn't count as much and that I shouldn't be as sad because we weren't official. Yeah, I know. It's people are so people say the weirdest, weirdest things.

SPEAKER_04

Can we put a pin in that for one second? Because I want to talk about this with you. This is sort of what I was about to bring up, and I want to validate you, which was I thought you were married, and this this is kind of the angle that I was about to go towards, which was I think you're the first person I've interviewed who has lost a spouse. That's what I was gonna say. And it's still in my eyes, you lost a spouse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It doesn't make how long were you two together?

SPEAKER_00

Going on five years.

SPEAKER_04

And let's just go back for one second to how he passed away. That is the craziest story. And I've heard crazy stories, and I know you've heard crazy stories.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it I mean, there's all sorts of layers to it, but we were at the hospital when because he wasn't feeling well. I didn't hear from him when I was at work. I got home and he was on the couch and he was yellow. And I called his mom. I'm like, we have got to rush him to the hospital, so this isn't right, and rushed him to the hospital. I started to fill the doctors in because he had gone to like those walk-in clinics just to get a prescription, and they're the they never tested his liver. So, and me working with animals and being around veterinarians and having a degree in biology, there were just some things I knew, like I was managing his meds based on what they were telling me. I was organizing everything, like like I was taking care of all the animals at work. I just I had a system. Um, and the crazy thing is the doctor came out and then he pulled me aside and he goes, Hey, I'm really sorry about your friend. And I was like, That's he's actually my person. We're planning on getting married. This happened, this happened, this happened. And I could tell that the doctor's body changed, his whole body language. I mean, years of animal behavior that so I was I watched that stuff all the time. And his body shifted and a little bit away from me. And I'm like, he's not comfortable with me, but I need him to understand what's happening. And I told him the dosage and how they stepped it up and never, and I was like, I would have never given a 200, 500-pound dolphin. I would have asked a vet, like, what are we doing? Are we t I need to go get blood from the dolphin right now to check their liver before we put them on this? The vet would have done that. And I was like, I don't understand why a doctor wouldn't. And he just stopped and he goes, Who are you and what do you do? And I was like, That's not right. And I so I explained to him who I was, what I did for work, how I know all of this, and I deduced what was occurring, and he was like, sorry about your friend. I had no rights, and he walked away from me because I we weren't married, and he was just like, bye, and walked away. He said something to his mom and him, and then left. And then that was it. I was the next thing was take him home. And his mom went in one direction where she wanted to do anything she could save him, which I know, and I was like, but he's too far gone. We couldn't get him a liver transplant if we tried. It's just they did so much damage, there was just nothing that we could do. So she was running down the path of I'm gonna bring him back, and I was here going, I'm just gonna try to make whatever time he has as comfortable as possible and figure out what I'm gonna do. It was a there was so much happening, but then just to be dismissed by the doctor in the emergency room all that out.

SPEAKER_04

I have to say two things. Well, I have a lot of things to say, but right now you have to know my blood is boiling so much right now for you, but all and also because I have a son that's gay, and when I hear you say that, I just it makes me so sick to my stomach. I I literally am having a visceral response right now. It's just that is just I know all the time, all the time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So that's part of I think why I really love sharing. Because people have asked, they're like, you know, you're gonna people are gonna make fun of you online, or they're gonna, you know, there's they're gonna judge you and say nasty things in the comments. Um, but I get to be an example of somebody who's gone through something tough, somebody who is in the LGBTQ community. I can show everybody that Devin and I are nice people. We just want nice things to happen to everybody. And even though I know putting myself out there that there's loud people who are nasty, me being out there shows other people, one, you can do this. It's okay to be you.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Two, there's other people out there like us. Three, if you've we've all lose people and we all can be sad, but like let's let's get going together. And I think something I didn't expect from all of this, um, you know, I just I just thought people would reach out and go, your stuff's fun, cool, like great, you put me in a good mood. And I'm like, okay, that's all I was expecting. I've had parents reach out to me and tell me that they their child is gay and they didn't know how to talk to them or they were uncomfortable with it. And because they've seen us and grow and share, they realize that we are just normal people and their relationship with their children is it's better now because they we've helped get rid of some of that fear, I think, which has just been the weirdest. So even though it was born out of a lot of awful, terrible experiences piled on top of each other, like I have to I I need a reason why I had to go through all of this being here sharing my story, helping other people and getting messages like that. I don't, I'm not happy that it happened, but it at least validates it. I don't know if that's what the universe meant to do. I don't know, but it gives me a little bit of peace.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so here's the thing. I don't have 1.2 million followers. However, I've said the exact right yet. And that's not really, you know, I say this all the time. I don't I don't really care about like the followers per se, like the numbers or like how many views I'm getting. Every time I see Janine, who's the podcast producer, you should come on and say hi to Brian.

unknown

I just followed him on TikTok.

SPEAKER_04

You did? She just followed you on TikTok. I I there's so much I want to say, but the first thing I want to say right now is that I I wish you were sitting right here next to me. I just wanted to give you the biggest hug. Like I you are so special. And I this is exactly why I'm doing this podcast, is exactly what you just said. Is that I've went on a podcast, I I got amazing response. I want people to know they can go on, they can be happy, they can find joy. And if I've been able to show that to one person, I'm I'm great. You know? You have to find the silver linings, like you have to. I mean, and like you said, it's horrific, and I wish it didn't have to happen. But if it happened, let's try to learn from this and uh get some good out of it, you know what I mean, and help other people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's very strange when but I I I think there's there's just a uh there's certain people that respond differently, and there's no way when you like there's no right way to grieve. Like there's no right way to deal with a loss. I'm there are poor decisions that you know people make, and it's unfortunate. And even for a little while, like I said, I was down the road where I was eating junk food and take out. I didn't want to cook for myself. I was eating leftover, you know, like I had no drive, probably way too much wine, not terrible. I think again, my dad leaned into alcohol very strong. He had a lot of back surgeries. Um, he he was on so his doctor kept for a long time. She kept upping his meds, like, and she got in some trouble for what she did. But he was hooked on opioids before we even knew what the problem was. We didn't even know opioids were that bad. And then on top of it, he was layering in the alcohol. And as awful as that is, it it was a it's a very strong reminder to me that I need to, it's fine to go and have your drinks and go out to eat and do whatever. But if you're sitting at home and you're sad and you're going through a bottle or two of wine a night, you need to, you're starting to make more choices. And you need to apply that. I had to pull myself right out of that. Um, it was never horrible, but I was like, this is just not okay. Um and so, like I said, there's no wrong way to grieve, but there are you have choices. And unfortunately, some people choose the difficult ones. Some of us choose them for a little while and then we get back on course, and that's normal. But there's a set group of people I think that I've found that go through something so difficult, and instead of it weighing them down forever, it lights us on fire, and we're like, game on, that's it. I think I'm getting out there and I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's me. Would you say so, Janine? Yeah, she's shaking her head, yes.

SPEAKER_00

You're doing a podcast for people, of course.

SPEAKER_04

And there's so many more things that I want to do. There's so many more things. What is the difference? And I know obviously it's different for everybody, but you're at eight years, I'm almost at four years. What how have you changed in the last four years?

SPEAKER_00

That's a good question. Um, and also it's very weird when you start to have those blocks of years because if you think about it, you you've been widowed as long as you were in high school. And I've been widowed as long as I was in high school and college. And when we were at that age in that time bracket, how long did it feel? High school and college felt so long, like every day. I'm never gonna graduate. This is taking forever. And such a great analogy. It it shows you how fast time goes. And that could be every once in a while I get these weird feelings. I'm gonna throw this out. I don't know you very well. It doesn't matter. I'm gonna throw this out. I what an what an interesting conversation to have with your daughter because she has now lived that. Has high school gone fast for her because of that? Has it gone slow? Is it different? I don't know. I don't know if you guys have those kind of conversations, but what an interesting perspective because now she's gonna go to college. That's another four years. She's got that marked. You have it marked, I have it marked. It's all my god, that's so true. Right?

SPEAKER_04

I would have never thought of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So year eight, and it's different, it's different for a lot of people. I have one of my friends, Jenny, um, very close friend. We worked at the Navy together. She was um basically engaged to one of my friends, Cole, uh, and he was diving one night and there was an accident and he passed away at work. Um, and she became widowed. This was I had already left and moved and lived um somewhere else. Um, so I heard about that through social media. She and I started talking more and more again, and she ended up being she needed someplace to go, and she found Soaring Spirits International, which is widowed support. And then when Clayton passed away, again, it's so weird how things tie together. Sh my writing on Facebook, she reached out, are you okay? I'm a few years ahead of you. I'll tell you things to expect. And I was like, I don't understand this, doesn't make sense. But she said, Your writing is so nice. We would love for you to write a blog for us. So for five years, I wrote a blog for them. And I looked back afterwards, I decided after five years, Devin and I were together, and I didn't I it wasn't a dishonor for me to keep writing a blog about it. Yeah, and and I got that grief from people too. Hey, you found someone new, forget Clayton. And I'm like, What? Like, what do you mean forget him? Well, you guys aren't together, and now there's a new person he's replaced. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's not how, what, what? That and that's another weird thing people do is they are like, Well, this person's gone, you can't ever talk about them again to the new person, or the new person's gonna get upset. And I was like, How is anybody in competition with someone who's dead? Like, that's ridiculous. No, and I'm only here because he's gone, and it's led me this way. Um, and so Devin was always extremely supportive. He has always been extremely supportive of things, and he's asked, like, what was he like? And all of course, write your blog. I this makes total sense. The anniversary goes by, he's like, Are you okay today? You know, there's just things. Um Do you have pictures?

SPEAKER_04

So do you have pictures up?

SPEAKER_00

Of Clayton?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, of Clayton.

SPEAKER_00

Around the house. You do, yeah, yeah, here and there. Good. Yeah. Um, because I also I want it, you know, I want it to be a healthy thing, but I also have to be careful. Like you don't, you know, you can overly obsess over things. Um but I decided to stop writing the blog at a point where I felt like I didn't need to. And then I compiled it all and I put it into a book. People can, it's the Widowed Dancer, it's on Amazon. What? Um, but I I went back and I reread all my years. And I it was five years and I cried through the whole thing because I was right back there again. And um year one.

SPEAKER_04

I'm ordering it today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I'll send you one.

SPEAKER_04

Well, uh only if you sign it 1.2 million followers, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Right Taylor Date Country Music.

SPEAKER_04

Uh look. Oh, look. Oh my god. You're so handsome.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Um but what was I oh you asked like what is it like with like year four? If you go back to year one, wasn't it a total fog?

SPEAKER_04

You know, I feel I don't know if you're gonna understand this or not. I hope you do, because it'll feel super validated about it. But I feel like the last four years, because he uh remember he was sick before he passed away. He had his surgery, he uh was having seizures every day. So it was not easy. And I have three children, by the way. The one we were just talking about is the youngest. So um I feel like I've been in a fog for almost four years, and I feel like I've never been clearer.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, it makes total sense. It doesn't like the people who are not in it, it makes total sense. You're hyper aware and also not sure at the same like what where am I right now? And it's what I think is this from a biology standpoint, and obviously, if there's any psychologists, I'm not a psychologist, but for what I understand, it it's like this fight or flight kicks in, and you have to zone everything out, or you just can't handle like your brain and emotions just can't handle what's happening. So you buffer yourself and it turns everything into this weird fog. And then every once in a while, like the fog clears a little and it's super clear, and it's really it could be really upsetting. And that that was the first year for me. Like I was just floating through life. I had no idea. Floating that floating, yeah. I was worried about the next day because every next day until the anniversary of his passing was the first of that kind. The very first Sunday without him, the very first Monday morning, the very first going back to work was horrible. Going to work was horrible. Everyone was so sweet to me, but then leaving work and having to go home to that, like I'm already like I remember what that's like. And I sat in my car and I cried because I did not want to go home because it was I had to admit it, and I didn't want to. I could live in this bit of a fog, and then you have like the first birthdays and the first anniversaries, and then like it just was this weird thing, and it was the holidays, and I couldn't go home, and I was all by myself. So I knew I wasn't having a Thanksgiving, I wasn't having a Christmas, I wasn't able to do any of that stuff, and I I one of the clearest moments was it was after Thanksgiving, and I was like, I'm gonna make a non-holiday meal for me because I think I need something like a turkey, like I just need to do something. And I filled my grocery cart up with all my favorite holiday foods, everything. I was like, I'm just gonna do this for me, and it's okay. And I started and they changed the music in the grocery store from regular grocery store music to Christmas music, and everything got super clear. I realized where I was, what I was doing, and then I was all by myself and I started bawling in the grocery store. People stopped and looked at me, and I just I needed to I just said, I'm this is my first holiday widowed, and I don't know what to do. And I just saw people's faces drop and I left the shopping cart full. I felt so awful that I did it. I had to walk out and go home. I was done the whole day. I just went to bed. And it's those moments that come through and hit. You hard, but then year two for me was I was angry. I was very, very angry, very mad at everything. Year three was the pandemic, and I was just I just gave up. I was like, whatever. And then all of a sudden, dancing online happened.

SPEAKER_04

Are you gonna do that dance for me today? I just want to know.

SPEAKER_00

I we don't have any music, but sure.

SPEAKER_04

What what do you mean? We're gonna cue the music.

SPEAKER_00

Are you gonna get up?

SPEAKER_04

Hell no.

SPEAKER_00

Why should I dance by myself?

SPEAKER_04

I don't think I can get up because here we go. We got music. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. What's the one you said?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, there's so I mean there's wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_04

What was the one we were just talking about?

SPEAKER_00

Dancing Queen. Baba. Um Justin Timberlake, Michael Jackson.

SPEAKER_04

Oh. But you know what we could do? He can he'll do it for us.

SPEAKER_00

No one knows all the like things you have to do when you're like planning a dance. Alright. Here we go. Can you hear this?

SPEAKER_03

I got the screen. It's gonna be baby when it's gonna make it.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my gosh, it's uh there you go. So, you guys, for all the listeners out here, you have to follow him on YouTube. Oh, for my video, when my video gets on YouTube, you'll see the dance. Right. All the audios won't see that. I have to ask you a question. Was that is that your voice?

SPEAKER_00

Singing? No.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I didn't think so.

SPEAKER_00

No, that was Justin Timberlake. I can't claim that.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, I did not think that that was your voice. However, when you just did that, I felt like you were singing and that was your voice. So I don't know. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00

I want to talk about lyrics, so I remember them.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my gosh. So I want to talk about two things with you. And thank you for that, by the way. You're definitely not shy. Okay, so this is what I want to talk about. I want to talk about dating. And I want to talk about, and now you're married to Devin. How long have you been married?

SPEAKER_00

It'll be three years in August.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my gosh. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Back and forth. Misbehaving. There we go. Now I can hear you perfect.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. So you've been married for three years, and how did you two meet?

SPEAKER_00

Well, he actually saw me dancing on TikTok. And then so we actually just got a memory thing from Facebook. Somehow, Facebook suggested him as a potential friend. We had no other mutual friends. I have no idea why he would have popped up. And so I was like, well, he's really cute, but he's like definitely younger than me. I'll send him a friend request. Who cares? Whatever. So I did. But he at the same time, which we didn't know, so this is probably what happened. He was on Facebook, and I had every week I would post my blog. So every Saturday was my day. So I would sit Saturday morning and I would write my blog, then there in the moment how I felt about my week, and I would post it. Unbeknownst to me, or him, he was reading my blog, but he was going through a divorce. And it was lining up for him because the person he fell in love with and married wasn't that person anymore. So it was like that person died. So he was understanding what I was going through, which also taught me that, like, not just being widowed, sharing about grief. I've had parents who have lost their children. I've had people who've lost their siblings or their parents read my stuff and then say, This makes sense. Like thank you. Like I get it. And so he was doing the same thing, going through a divorce. And then I happened to see he posted food that he cooked in his took stories. And that was it. I sent, I just was a sassy, and I'm like, this makes you husband material.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my god, is that gonna be mean if you're first of all, no, I'm not getting married again.

SPEAKER_00

However, don't say that, you never know.

SPEAKER_04

Well, listen, this is where I'm at. I really am very independent and I really do enjoy my alone time. I haven't really had alone time because as I was just saying, my daughter just graduated high school. And I don't know that I I definitely don't have it in me to go through apps. No, no, no. No, no, no. That I think I can pretty much say never, and I never say never. Because you just don't know, as we know. You never know. I mean, your your partner passed away because he stuck his hand into the grave of a dead animal. Like that is so uh weird. And this is what I wanted to say to you before is that you had an entirely additional level layer because I mean I I can't assume. However, I would be like, what the actual F. Like, this is the craziest story, right?

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it just didn't it was just like the weirdest lineup of things. It was the weirdest lineup, and then his after he and the closure wasn't even on a regular timeline. Like we had we didn't even dive into that at all. Like it's he ended up sing away, and his mother, a poor sweet woman, like probably two weeks after, she ended up having a stroke, went into the hospital and lost control over her body, and then could never go home. She would have been there on her own by herself. I would have had to start taking care of her, which was also, I was like, I don't understand how I'm like how I can do all of this by myself right now. But his some of his family, um, they medically flew her up, and then she stayed up there. That was it. Two weeks after he passed, she went up there, her house sat empty. I would go over and check on it. It was so creepy. I just, I was like, I can't. But then, so we didn't have a funeral for him, and he was we I had his ashes. So then we were gonna plan. I had to, I couldn't fly with them because you're not allowed to fly. Like you need all sorts of special stuff. So I was gonna end up driving up there, but then the pandemic hit. Like every because we had to wait for her to be healthier to have his funeral. But by the time she was feeling like that, we had the pandemic and I couldn't go anywhere. So when the pandemic ended, and we could, we went up there and it was his birthday in July. Um, and um his his service finally in 2021. He had passed away in 2018, and then she passed away a year later.

SPEAKER_04

She did pass away.

SPEAKER_00

So then I was back up. But even that, like, I just like there people don't realize like we're just you have this certain loss, it's supposed to be age, right? Your grandparents, then your parents, then it's you. Like, that's just how it should go. So when it's out of the natural progression that we're taught, but also assume it makes sense. That's weird. But then when you don't get to just validate it in the time and have the closure and it extends, that's a whole other different world.

SPEAKER_04

Wait a minute. I couldn't we had about a week before my husband's funeral because uh of legalities and all of that, right? So because he took his life, you can't you have to there's things that have to happen. But that week having to go through that week and then have his funeral, and then I'm Jewish, so we then had Shiva, it was like the longest it was it was so much, it was too much. But did you I want to go back to dating, and then we have to get to another topic really quick. So did you think that you would like what were your thoughts after you lost him?

SPEAKER_00

I like that stuff was so far removed from like my mind. I had I wasn't thinking about any of that at all at all for a while. Nope. Like this is who I am, this is I'm broken, that's it. No one's gonna want to date me because I'm broken. Like that was a big issue.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And it's even it's harder. I mean, there's not really a huge community of gay people down here. Like there just isn't.

SPEAKER_04

It's definitely not in the panhandle.

SPEAKER_00

No. Um, yeah, right. And uh, but also I think that was a benefit to me is to not have that world around. Because that world, in many instances in a big city, it's bars, it's people going out and being young and dumb and doing the things and whatever. And I wanted nothing to do with that. So I think it was probably a good thing that it happened here where I didn't have access to those excuses. Like, you know, and again, I'm not judging anybody for whatever they do, but I think that would have led me down a road of bad decisions just to feel something again, like just to get attention or think, you know, maybe, and I I had to sit with myself and then the whole world shut down. But that the last thing I ever want to say is a pandemic was a blessing, but in a way it kind of was. I had to sit there and I had to I had to unscrew me, yeah, and I had to light the fire because nobody else was coming.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I do, I understand. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I had one woman say to me once, and yeah, thank you very much. I can't get it out of my head. She said, Yeah, don't ever go on the apps. I can tell you, nine out of ten men that I date, I then find out that they are felons. I'm like, okay, yeah, that that's that we're not gonna do that. I just don't have I just don't have the bandwidth or the energy. Like I just keep saying, if somebody happens to fall into my lap that's like perfect for me, not perfect, but perfect for me, I would entertain it. But I haven't been so interested. Like I have, you know, I have kids, my daughter's been home. I keep saying at least it has to be when she leaves, you know, for college, and I have her tucked away, and but we'll see. I don't know. I don't know. I really want to just do what I want to do. I don't really want to have to consult people and think about oh, but I want to do this, but this person's not gonna be happy with that. You know, like I just want to do what I want to do at this point.

SPEAKER_00

I would do what you want to do. If somebody's supposed to fit in there, they're gonna fit in there.

SPEAKER_04

That's how I feel. That's how I feel. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about, and we really don't have any more time. However, it's so important that we talk about this. As you know, I'm a therapist, and I am not surprised by anybody's behavior, yet I am. You know what I mean? Like, I understand why people do the things that they do from a psychological standpoint, but sometimes I'm just like, I just don't understand how somebody can do that. Did you have those moments after Clayton passed away where people like have you lost f uh friends? I'm actually putting them in air quotes. Have you lost friends? Have you had people who are like, I'm just not comfortable with this? Or do you have people who get upset with you because you have time to dance, but you don't have time to call them that day, or they get upset with you because you are going out and they're seeing that on Facebook, but you don't have enough time to call and talk. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think because I was so public and I shared everything, like when he was sick, I I was posting, I was telling people like he is not doing well. And I was texting our friends, I'm like, if you want to see him, you need to do this. And they're like, Oh, we'll come in the summer, we'll stop by like next fall. And I go, there isn't a next fall. Oh no, keep your spirits up. No, no, no, there isn't. And we had some people come down and they were it rattled them pretty, pretty hard. But I and I think because I shared what I was doing and I share so openly, I think I bring everyone along for the ride. So I don't I've never had anybody f reach out and say that they feel neglected. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe because I'm I'm talking about after. I'm talking about you showing up as a friend. I mean, I like personally for me, I don't love to sit and talk on the phone so much anymore. Or there's just days I don't want to talk to anybody. You know what I mean? Or I don't want to go out. You know, it's like one day I might feel like go out feeling like going out dancing and listening to live music, and other days I'm just like, I don't have it in me. And I find that there are people who give me a hard time because I'm not giving enough of myself to them.

SPEAKER_00

No, you don't have that, and that's boundaries right away for me.

SPEAKER_04

I'm like, but do you but oh yeah, no, I have to set the boundaries because I can only I already have so much to give. I already have so much to give. However, do you find that? Are you confronted with that?

SPEAKER_00

I am not, I'm not con I haven't had anybody like they reach out and they're like, hey, wanna jump on the phone? When are you busy, you got a lot going on? Um let me know. And so we'll we play that game and then I'll get on the phone or just have to plan it. I think the thing that I have a problem with that sort of fits into what you're saying, but it's it's definitely it's it's a little bit different, is I have people who see what I do and they reach out, and then they want me to fix their problems. So I have like I open up my social media and I have I'm talking about paragraphs written from strangers all about their whole life and everything they've lost, and that I'm the only reason they get out of bed and how do I fix them. And I those I can't answer. Okay, and some of those I just leave unread because I the beginning didn't know what was occurring when people I thought people were just like, hey, same. I understand where you're coming from, thank you. Oh, it turned into like I have had to call the police and have people go welfare welfare checks on people already twice and stopped. Yeah, and I'm sorry I have to bring that up, especially the way your husband passed to people. I have I have stopped them from that both of them overdosed on medication and got taken to the hospital in time. So that's that's when people are demanding my time, that's probably the worst thing that's occurred to me with all of this is having that thrust thrushed up thrusted there we go, thrusted upon me. I was not expecting that. My friends are all good. They're like, oh, you're super busy, just call me when you get a chance. Like they don't take it personally.

SPEAKER_04

It's not only about it's not just about being busy. It's about I mean, I am I am very busy. I still work, I have, like I said, three kids, a home, two dogs, whatever it is. But it's sometimes I might feel like doing this, but not doing that. Or sometimes I might feel like talking on the phone to somebody, but I don't feel like talking on the phone the next day. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not just about being busy, it's about my mental health. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

But even that's busy.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

If you think about it, it's you're you have to decide where you're putting your energy in your mind. So I nobody should make you feel like that. Like you're if you're dead. I mean, yes, you could if you're supposed to have a call with somebody and then you really don't feel like it, you could say, Hey, I'm I'm just not feeling okay. I'm so sorry, I really want to talk to you, but can we just switch days? Your your friends should understand that.

SPEAKER_04

I think that just I'm gonna end on this note. I think that you just don't know until you've been through it. Just like I don't know what you're experiencing completely because I haven't been through your experience entirely, like you have a very different experience than I do, right? So I I just think people I think sometimes that you know, uh like I don't know if you get this, a lot of people compare their stories to me. You know, do you get that? Like people like people who are divorced, they're like, oh, I get it. I have to do everything myself. I'm like, but your kids don't have a dead parent. Like, please don't compare. This is not easy. This is not easy.

SPEAKER_00

And I think they mean it, they mean well by it because they don't want you to feel alone, but they but they also want validation for their situation, and they just don't realize that they're inadvertently making it about themselves, kind of.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I d I I don't I don't think it's it takes a village, right?

SPEAKER_04

No, and I don't think anybody's doing it's not malicious. I think it's just you just don't know if you don't know. You just don't know, yeah. And just because it's been it irks, it's yeah, funny. And just because it's been almost four years or it's been almost eight years, like there's something that sh has changed in me forever. It's not gonna go away. And I would guess it's the same for you, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, and you'll have things that you'll you'll have things that set you off that you never would have thought. I very much recall being at work and I heard one of my coworkers complaining about his wife. And it was just regular whatever, like not bat, just like that regular kind of nagging, like cute. This happens in relationships. And I looked at him, I said, Well, you have options. Either you can be happy that this is happening and giggle at it, or she could be dead. Take your pick, but I don't want to hear you complain one more, one more second about your wife because I don't get to have my husband my husband time.

SPEAKER_04

Don't do that. Don't do that. Take away those air quotes.

SPEAKER_00

You know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04

I do, but I don't want to see those air quotes. Anyway, I have got to wrap up with you because I'm getting the eye right now. We've gone that is mad as a lie. That's a lie. She wasn't giving me the eye, but she was like this. Thank you, Bill.

unknown

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04

I just play, I just play with Janine. She's so easy. It's so easy. I love her. She's amazing. Can you come say hi to him? I want to can we end the podcast so I can go. We're gonna end the podcast. We're we're we'll definitely connect. I'll reach out to you. Yes. No, I'm like, let's end it and then we'll keep him on Zoom so we can talk. Oh, oh, okay. So I just want to say thank you. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna hang out and talk a little bit more, but I just want to say thank you so much, and you are just a dreamboat in so many ways. Really, you're a special human, and I just want to thank you so much. And I will be in touch with you in a little bit. Yeah, don't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_04

Don't go anywhere. Thank you. And remember, folks, the Present Moment project is intended for informational and inspirational purposes only. The views and opinions shared by the host and guests are their own and do not constitute medical, legal, or professional advice. Please consult a qualified health care professional for making any medical or wellness decisions. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care, no matter how wide you may sound, and it's a present moment.