future pharma
The future of healthcare lies in truly personalised patient and HCP journeys and conversations like this one help us all get there faster.
future pharma
Leading with empathy, with David Henderson at Takeda
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Future pharma host, Romain Bonjean, CEO of RoseRx, sits down with David Henderson, Franchise Head Specialty Oceania at Takeda, who brings over 20 years of biopharmaceutical leadership experience including 13 years at Biogen where he rose to Managing Director for Australia and New Zealand.
They explore what it means to lead with empathy in a digital age, how leadership approaches shift across international markets, and the cultural shifts toward personalized healthcare and patient segmentation. David discusses his bold call for Medical Affairs to move beyond the "zone of science" and become "agents of change," the ongoing tension between Medical Affairs and commercial teams and whether AI can help bridge that gap or fundamentally change what the job actually is.
He also shares insights on the risks of over-segmentation, what keeps him up at night about the industry's future, and advice for new leaders navigating healthcare's rapid transformation.
More than a third of millennials and Gen Z chose to follow information that they'd got on social media, even if it was in contrast to the information and advice that they got from a qualified healthcare professional.
SPEAKER_01It's it's alarming. Absolutely. Joining me is David Henderson. David is a strategic biopharmacal leader and has over two decades of experience in the life science industry.
SPEAKER_02You have this fragmentation of information. And some of it is accurate, and we also know that some of it is inaccurate. And so as an industry, what do we do? Do we sit on the sidelines and observe the conversation, or do we actually get a little bit more proactive and sit within the conversation?
SPEAKER_01Hello, I'm Roman Bonjin, CEO of Rose RX, and this is Future Pharma. On this podcast series, I explore the fast-moving evolution of life sciences, technology, and the evolving patient and HTT experience. I'll be talking to industry leaders who are looking forward toward the future and understand the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead. This series is brought to you by Rose RX. The future of healthcare lies in truly personalized patient and HTT journeys, and conversations like the one we have had to have will help us all get there faster. Joining me is David Henderson. David is a strategic biopharmacal leader and has over two decades of experience in the life science industry. David's well known for his 13 years at Biogene, where he rose to be managing directors for Australia and New Zealand, where he led Biogene through a growth of multiple sclerosis and spinal muscular trophy and establishing the Alzheimer's disease portfolio. He has recently moved into the role as franchise head specialty Oceania at Takeda, overseeing the gastrointestinal, neuroscience, and vaccine portfolio across the region. Having worked in market across the globe, originally from Cape Town, South Africa, he now called Sydney Australia home. David, thanks for joining me on Future Pharma.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me. And it's a pleasure to be with you in the audience.
SPEAKER_01I think we met at the next summit uh uh late last year uh in Sydney. And I remember one of your talks that you've done, which was really interesting. It was leading with empathy. And you had a talk around leadership in pharma um and how the landscape is changing and how important um empathy was. And I think it's it's a word that is often overused, but I'd like to hear from you if you don't mind.
SPEAKER_02You know, my curiosity started in empathy uh really probably in 1993. I think I shared at the time, you know, I was actually um present or uh during a terrorist attack on a church. And this really got my curiosity going in that for months afterwards I was more curious in terms of why the people would take such a radical action. And that really got me thinking about well, how do I understand their point of view? And this is in the context of a part at South Africa. Um, and it was through that I became really curious of this concept of empathy. And exactly as you've mentioned in the intro, is that empathy quite often is thrown around and perhaps also misdefined as sympathy. And so, you know, maybe we should start off by let's clarifying what is empathy and what actually is sympathy. And I think, you know, very basic explanation in my mind is that empathy is that I'm sitting alongside you and I can see what you see. Okay, I recognize your emotions, and that helps me then communicate with you on an effective level. Sympathy, on the other hand, is that perhaps I sit in your emotion with you. And then that probably influences me from an emotional point of view where perhaps I won't be able to take an objective, unbiased view of the situation.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Especially how it could apply in in in a healthcare context.
SPEAKER_02Yes, most certainly. You know, so when we apply it to healthcare, I think um there are so many positive applications, you know, both internally within organizations and how leaders lead. And then also there's an external facing component to it as well. So, you know, do we truly understand what a patient is experiencing or what that patient's family is experiencing? Do we also truly understand what a physician or healthcare system with their experience is either with that system, with the therapeutic area, or from a farmer point of view is what is the experience with us as a broader industry and then specifically as the organizations? And I think being empathetic and really being curious and truly trying to understand their point of view, in my view, that actually fosters innovation. It also fosters diversity and inclusion because I'm now curious about your point of view.
SPEAKER_01Do you find modern pharma is empathetic enough, or could they do more to really go and and get in a patient's shoe and uh their loved ones' shoes and accompany them on the health journey?
SPEAKER_02My personal view is that I think um perhaps 20, 30 years ago when I first got into the industry, um, I think it would be fair to say that the patient interest and the actual true understanding of what the patient and their carers or their family are experiencing was perhaps left a little bit behind in terms of where the organizations wanted to go. I think fortunately, what I've observed is a greater intersection between the various functions within pharma. And those that intersection really lands on the patient experience.
SPEAKER_01Patient centricity.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah. And I think, you know, it's also a term that's thrown around so frequently, you know, we've got to be patient-centric, ought to be patient-centric. I always remind myself and encourage the people I work with is that you actually need to actively take the time and seek the opportunities to spend time with a patient or within a clinic to really understand their point of view and their experience.
SPEAKER_01You're talking about this evolution from the 90s till now. Could you take your portion into to maybe a recap your journey as a pharma professional?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure, Raman. So, you know, I actually entered the industry in South Africa and it was a bit of a sliding doors moment um in that I had met somebody who actually worked in healthcare, and I was quite interested in that. I came from a business and sports background and got offered this opportunity to enter the industry. And a couple of the drivers that really got me interested is first and foremostly, um, you know, I'll share that my father was actually rather unwell through most of his life. He actually developed um psoriasis over his body. And I remember him and I spending some hours in our garage in the garage at home trying to work out well, what potions and lotions could we even create to try and stop this itching and scaling experience that he had. Um, and that really like piqued my curiosity in terms of, well, what is the whole healthcare environment? What does it look like? And when I got the opportunity to join um a pharma company in in South Africa, I really jumped at it. And it was actually a really interesting role. In sales role, I was uh calling on general practitioners, and in South Africa, most general practitioners also dispense from their rooms. So you have both a scientific uh portion of your role, but then there's also a commercial portion in terms of you'd actually um take an take an order, yeah. And and that physician would then dispense that that medication. And so coming from a business background, I think that was also quite intriguing and exciting for me in terms of oh wow, you know, there there is this whole business model based around healthcare.
SPEAKER_01It's a fascinating um concept. I I you mentioned your your your history. I I come from a medical background, a long line of very traditional doctors um back home in France. And even to this day, I still detect a certain patriarchal way of doing medicine. Doctors know best, and it it don't trust the patient too much. And I always find this extremely obsolete, especially in view of how information is like water, information sips in everywhere in the world. COVID digitized everyone, like your grandma is online more than your teenage daughter, which is more worrisome, but that's for another podcast. Um but and and and so the idea that the patient wouldn't come informed, probably with with the wrong information, but informed nonetheless, um, ahead of touching the um healthcare continuum is madness. Like it it it we we we've seen data about a rice grower in country Vietnam knowing more about diabetic treatment than a Brooklyn um base people because they've got access to the internet and it is translated in Vietnamese, and they are 5G in the rice field of Vietnam, and they are connected with smartphones and they are very well aware of treatments opportunity to treat their diabetes. And this these case studies keep popping and it it accelerated that digitization. All of a sudden, everyone's informed all the time, and yet you still have an entire segment of the industry that goes around going down and saying we know best, and and and the science is between closed doors and trust what we're doing. And that that that's the intersection that fascinates me. How quickly will the industry just realize that true patient centricity is to participate in this conversation?
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, and that and that and that also I think is one of the uh the potential challenges that I see in the industry, and something you know that I'm really thinking about in terms of of the future is you have this fragmentation of information. And some of it is accurate, and we also know that some of it is inaccurate. And so, as an industry, what do we do? And I think we know in some ways we're almost at a crossroads. Do we sit on the sidelines and observe the conversation, which I think has been traditionally most of the industry's position, is let the conversation take its own course, or do we actually get a little bit more proactive and sit within the conversation?
SPEAKER_01That's a fascinating point. And we we've had a similar conversation recently. If you sit on the sideline, you you actually in a measurable way start losing the battle because misinformation sips so much in healthcare that we're now starting to see some metrics showing that this delayed outcome, delayed right treatment to the right patient. Um, I think someone was mentioning recently in in California uh we're seeing uh uh cancer death going back up with educated women because they postpone uh meaningful, effective oncological treatment after you know falling under Instagram BS and basically moving the cancer from a treatable case to a non-triculture case, and the metrics is no showing in public health data. The Facebook generation is is is going backward in despite the science going forward. So this is um it it's testament again and again that that that pharma has a responsibility as the as the maker of the chemistry to to be part of that battle for information.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, recently um I heard some statistics coming out of a Reuters conference that was held in London, specifically around like the consumer patient forum. And I think off the top of my head, it was approximately more than a third of millennials and Gen Z's, and I don't want to pick on any uh demographic segment here, but I have it was more than a third of millennials and Gen Zs chose to follow information that they'd got on social media, even if it was in contrast to the information and advice that they got from a qualified healthcare professional.
SPEAKER_01It's it's alarming.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so think about that. It's like a third, more than a third of people decided to actually trust the voice of someone else versus somebody who is a qualified healthcare professional. And I think, you know, to your point, if you overlay that then in terms of well, what is the responsibility of farm organizations, the developers, the researchers, the producers of trusted medicines. I agree. I don't think that we should sit in the stands and observe this conversation. I think in some ways we must have a duty of care.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_02To be part of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The challenge obviously then is well, how do you be part of it? But this is where also I think perhaps in the future, what we could do better as an industry is connect greater with the stakeholders in that. And that stakeholder group, you know, I think about obviously there's the obvious choices in terms of physicians, nurses, allied healthcare staff. But what about also the healthcare system broadly? And then in addition to that, what about the patient advocacy groups? You know, those are perhaps voices that we should assist in terms of providing balanced and accurate information.
SPEAKER_01I I agree with all the points here, but then the regs needs to evolve. I think everyone's diagnosing this shift and evolution of the health landscape. It just doesn't follow up. The TGA rules are still extremely vague, purposefully, and and medicine Australia is still trying to adapt for a world which sounds like it's 2016, not 2026. Like it it it's um, I mean, they they're doing some great work, but you're still going, you feel that whether the self-regulation or the hard edge of regulation slows us and doesn't allow us a fair fight, um, the moment you are a wellness uh apparatus or you know a commercial layer, uh like one of those new telehealth type business, you you can go for gold and go for broke because somehow there's all the loopholes for you. But when an actual campaign maker with billions of dollars of tested RD and clinical trials wants to have a voice, all of a sudden we have to work on Excel and be extremely careful, and uh the penalties are immeasurable. Yeah, and um, I think this this needs to shift if we want to have a fair fight, um, in in in making sure that in this post-truth world, uh the new generation has access to genuine clinical outcome that that works. I mean, this is it, sorry, does this a hard language I'm using, but I I I the more you look at it, the statistics, the scarier they get.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is real. And yeah, you know, I think um most in the industry almost share this frustration, if you will. I I think there'd be few people in the industry would say, okay, well, we don't need any laws or any guidelines. Yeah, because I think that's perhaps we're edging on the side of recklessness. However, it's how contemporary are those guidelines or laws relative to the broader environment. Um, you know, you mentioned Medicines Australia, and I think back to um how the code of conduct has changed, you know, more from very being very prescriptive now to more principles-based, correct, which I think is a step in the right direction. I suppose to answer to your question is how does that evolve into the future? Um yeah, it would be interesting to see. I mean, my my view is that I would think we're better placed to continue with a principled view. I agree. And then us as an industry thinking more about well, how do we provide that accurate and balanced information in a way that still is in compliance with guidelines within the law, but also that actually it isn't just vanilla. And what I mean by that, you know, it's to engage exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're going back about storytelling. We were talking about it before, before the show. You you you if you're not able, if you don't have the right color palette to tell and paint your story, you you you you're not gonna be very effective, and it's gonna be a lot of media spend to not actually engage and and and and navigate people. We look to the US a lot on this, actually, which is a highly regulated environment, but that has a slightly different approach, and they're a lot more comfortable going dynamically in the storytelling with um, you know, patients and stakeholders. I've recently listened to the CEO of um LI Lilly um about their complete focus on direct-to-consumer journeys and and and trying to capture it. It was a very fascinating, um, liberating way of talking about a highly regulated in environment still, but we're gonna go straight to the source and help them navigate. Um, and our product portfolio will accompany them across their whole lifespan. And I just thought that was a very fascinating um and very novel way of talking about it. Yeah, no, it certainly is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, I also think about uh you know, going back to the point that you mentioned earlier, in terms of you know, you have this almost like this patriarchal view of how medicine is practiced. Um, and you know, some observations are also that what I see is like these different demographics of healthcare professionals emerging. Yep. You know, perhaps when I first entered, going back to when I first entered the industry, it was certainly this patriarchal view of it of where the healthcare professional held all the knowledge and power. And what I'm observing now more is that you have a case of like let's call them like the more mature generation of physicians, yeah. And then you have those almost at the middle of their career.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02And I think about well, how do they actually absorb information or how do they choose to uh receive information? And I think that's a combination of both digital, probably in person, and then you have this younger generation of physicians who are digital natives.
SPEAKER_01And they won't take a meeting. No, completely. They won't take a salesperson, they're actually allergic to it. And we we say 40, but the barrier is getting older every year. So it's like an iceberg melting. Your in-person sells coal, it's just gonna disappear from the industry and it's gonna move to an omni-channel, very dynamic, hyper-personalized. There was there's still one access to your chief scientific officers, they still want access to your med affair, and then your opinion leader uh amateurum, but they're gonna want to do it through their own channel in their own time. Um, uh, we've seen that shift globally. Um, and it it it's it's a it's a generation like I think you won't find a healthcare professional under the age of 40 that would go and say, Yeah, come and have a$22.50 sandwich, not a sense more. And uh and uh and tell me more about your sampling. I also believe we're seeing the same shift from a patient journey perspective.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I think the whole new generation of like we're talking about millennials, and my daughters are a little young to be in that category, but they they they composite truth from multiple sources of information, yes, and not a single one. So there's this mistrust of the single truth source, which is a move away from that patriarchal. So you need to have a multi-touch truth making for them to go yes, and then the the the the I think we we're gonna have to have more and more of those efforts for people to realize that's the treatment I need for my disease. Um, let's take action.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, one thing that I I as I mentioned that I do think about is this like fragmentation of sources of information. And so, how do you actually ensure that you have accurate information across many areas? And I know a common thing that we we speak about in healthcare and in pharma is this omni channel. I'm probably viewing this more as opti-channel. So, what's the optimum channel and the optimum information within that channel to reach the end user or the consumer as such? And be that consumer, a patient or a healthcare provider, whichever whichever one it is. Um and so if I think about the future, what I'd probably see is that it's less about longer narratives, I think it's about really crystallizing the salient point. But to crystallize that salient point, I think we'll probably go back to where we started our conversation, which is from a point of empathy. Because unless I really understand your point of view or and standing and seeing your point of view, how can I crystallize that content and optimize it for you if I don't really have a true understanding of your needs?
SPEAKER_01I'm very interested in how it helps the go-to-market playbook. Um, and particularly interested in how the ability to be always on across the Omni or Opti channel, as you talk, um, allows for the organization to weave and learn and iterate in your role. Where do you see this heading in the next couple of years, in the next 10 years? And what's your opinion on how much AI will help do a better job there?
SPEAKER_02AI has an incredible opportunity for us to really optimize those engagements and optimize information across the multiple channels itself. Um, you know, we mentioned earlier around like the emerging or the or a lot of these HCPs or healthcare professionals who are young in their career, they really prefer digital community. Communication. It doesn't mean that they are adverse to in-person communication. So with that as a context, I really see AI assisting organizations in being a lot more thoughtful and a lot more focused on the actual desire and the needs and the preferences of the healthcare professional than before. I think before, you know, it was really about the intuition perhaps of the individual that was sitting in front of a customer to try and understand where they are in their understanding of the use of a certain therapy or the challenges that they might face in a clinical point of view. But I think AI really offers the opportunity for greater robust 360-degree view and then offers the opportunity to really optimize those engagements so that that level of value and trust is accelerated versus moved in in perhaps slower increments, which it has been, I think, traditionally.
SPEAKER_01I I love it. And I I if if you allow me, I nearly tie it up with your empathy comment. I think it AI allows to scale empathy across all your channel. If if if if I play that back, by being able to have that 360 view, it can deliver a personalized um view that a lot more empathetic on how your end user use and interface with your organization.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Roman, I agree with that. I think there's also you know perhaps a risk in that as well. Um, in that what we know currently with AI is that the accuracy level varies. And so it does require that human intervention currently to ensure the accuracy and and and almost quality test AI itself. Um, going back to the risk that I that I think I I potentially see is that currently machines cannot display empathy. They cannot sense empathy in itself, and that's the human touch. And I think that's a central point that unites the industry and the broader healthcare environment is around that emotional connection with an individual, be that a patient, a healthcare professional, somebody even within your um your organization. And so it's how I think for me, it's about how do we leverage the technology to do a lot of the thinking. And then based on your point, in terms of the empathy, and I think a lot of that thinking is well, what is the optimal information delivered at the optimal time? And then it requires actually the human to bring the emotion to that.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Correct.
SPEAKER_02And really so you know, and really drive the value in terms of I have the right information, I'm delivering it within the right emotional construct.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_02I think there's always a place for the human and the human element within this. Yeah. I don't think we could go to full digitization in terms of the way we engage with healthcare professionals or patients. However, I think that digital component would certainly increase into the future. I think there'd also be a greater reliance on, well, I'm hoping that there'd be a greater reliance on the science as the science evolves. And so therefore, the need to actually provide that accurate information is highlighted. You know, we spoke about earlier that perhaps with these fragmented communication channels, it's a real challenge for the industry to ensure of accurate balanced information across all those channels. I really, if I look into the future, what I'd hope is that the industry is a lot closer to the consumer, to the patient, to their care, um, caregivers as well. Because I think they're also an important stakeholder in it, as well as the physician. So, you know, we almost become more balanced between our focus on the healthcare professional and the patient and their carer, versus almost having our current preference for the healthcare professional.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I think we we we we need to do a lot better job in talking to the patient. Going back on their 30 years' career, um, what did you see as a culture shift?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So Roman, if I go back and think about, you know, when I first entered the industry, um what my observations were is that, you know, a lot of therapies were focused on the more chronic disease areas. And in some instances, you know, we had what I refer to as marching armies of commercial people, yeah, where it was all just about frequency. And if you were said or repeated the message frequently enough that somehow that would generate business, and that the science would be part of the conversation, what but perhaps wouldn't actually lead the conversation. So that's kind of when I started the industry. I think where the industry is now, the place it's in now, is that it's actually that science that actually is leading the conversation. And a lot of the conversation starts with the science and starts with this therapy's optimal place in a spectrum or landscape. And I think over time, what has been proven is that if you start with the end point in mind, which is how do we better the outcomes for an individual, you have a sustainable business because the rest just follows. The concept of being a commercial organization, I think it's people who become more comfortable with that in terms of that organizations need to generate profit to invest in research and development. However, you cannot just be, in my view, you cannot just be purely focused on the commercials part of the business and almost devoid of the impact that you can have on someone's life.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Quick segue. You've actually um there's a role that's very important in Pharma, um, which is medical affair. And you had some very interesting opinion about the evolving role of medical affair, which actually I think ties up with um your comment about the science being an absolute key commercial driver. Could you um, for audience, describe uh um and talk to us a little bit more about your thoughts about the modern medical affair and where it's heading?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, so this um I think you know, you're referring to a publication that I co-authored with a couple of other GMs at the time, which um really was a synopsis of the views of general managers within Australia as to how medical affairs can really evolve into the future. And the essence of this paper really speaks about this evolution of medical affairs. You know, starting off whereby, I think when I first entered the industry, medical affairs almost seen as the supportive function. And in fact, they were probably the ones that were holding on the reins, so to speak, in terms of ensuring that the commercial side of the business remained within the appropriate lanes. And then we saw this adjustment to where they became more of enablers and more of a supportive function outside of a regulatory context. But of late, I think it's really, you know, focused on that medical affairs are truly leaders in many instances. Correct. And this is, you know, obviously the intersection of where the science has evolved and the need for greater medical affairs input and insights into it. And I also see a greater um convergence between commercial and medical functions, whereas perhaps before they were quite separate. However, I see a greater convergence of those two functions now, obviously respecting their own appropriate um remits and and scope of their function.
SPEAKER_01It's it it ties up to the conversation earlier. Essentially, if you lead with the science and the the the profit is on science efficacy on the right, it is the same thing ultimately, if if if your your your your medical role is a commercial role.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think, yeah, I think like the distinction of those two roles, particularly in rare space, probably isn't as divergent it was as what it was in the past. I think those roles are a lot more closely aligned than before. Um and that's I view that as a really positive uh development of the organization. Um I think also, you know, we what we spoke about in the paper was um, I think broadly for medical affairs to become more comfortable with the commercial aspect of the industry itself. I think it would be fair to say, you know, early in my career that medical were almost um almost shying away from the commercial aspect and the capital nature in which organizations operate in in terms that they are profit-generating entities. Whereas now I do certainly see those commercial leaders, or sorry, now what I do see those medical leaders who really stand out, they have a level of comfort with the commercial construct of an organization.
SPEAKER_01David, thank you very much for being here today. At the end of each show, we normally ask our guests five quick fire questions. First one would be uh what's your biggest industry prediction for 2026?
SPEAKER_02Perhaps not my biggest prediction for 2026, but my biggest hope is that we actually do have the HDA, the health technology assessment reform in Australia.
SPEAKER_01Could you talk a little bit more what the HDA is?
SPEAKER_02Yes, so the health technology assessment is effectively a framework that the pharmaceutical benefits scheme uses to assess the cost effectiveness of medicines. Currently, where we're at is that this process is dated, it's more than 30 years old. And I think it'd be fair to say that it does not keep pace with the current level of advancement in technology and science itself. And so the government has agreed to a revision. Um, and now we're in the process of hopefully that some of these proposed changes will actually be enacted.
SPEAKER_01What industry challenge keeps you up at night?
SPEAKER_02I really think it is. It's this fragmentation of information resources. I really think that's the one thing that keeps me up at night. The other one obviously relates back to the HDA and in terms of providing timely access to innovative treatments within within Australia and also New Zealand, in fact, as well. I think, you know, unless the HDA revisions take place, I fear that Australians will be missing out on innovative therapies.
SPEAKER_01Well, they're still missing out. I think 73% of innovative therapies are not covered by the PBS.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, exactly. Which is terrifying.
SPEAKER_02It is terrifying. And then the wait for the innovative therapies, what it's over 400 days, which between the time of registration versus reimbursement. So it's quite a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What's a piece of advice that you would give a new leader?
SPEAKER_02Remain curious. Just remain curious. Um, Roman, if I can add to that, I was given some incredible advice, and I'm deeply appreciative of this mentor still. Um, when I took on the role of general manager, this individual gave me the advice and said to me, it will be probably the most loneliest role you'll ever have in your career. And I was at first a little bit perplexed. I was like, but hang on, you're engaging with people and the whole organization all the time. But never a true word was spoken because people certainly view your organizational authority in a different view. And perhaps they don't disclose as freely to you what you actually should be hearing, even if you create a psychologically safe environment. I think people are more guarded. And so what I've learned is to be really curious and remain curious.
SPEAKER_01I love it. I had a mentor like that says you're you're a competitive advantage is to keep having fun.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I'm big on that as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I have a duty to always be the most enthusiastic person in a room at work. And David, um, last cheeky question. If you were to give yourself advice 30 years ago, what advice would you give yourself?
SPEAKER_02It's a very interesting perspective, Roman. I certainly the advice that I'd give myself is just to back yourself more.
SPEAKER_01I like it.
SPEAKER_02And what I mean by that is that I think we're all suffer from imposter syndrome to some degree. And perhaps earlier in my earlier in my career, I think I suffered from that maybe more than perhaps what I should have. And you know, I live by this, this, this maxim of just make it happen. Like don't wait for other people, don't look around, expect someone else to do it. Take the leadership role and make it happen for yourself. I think when you're too influenced by imposter syndrome, you perhaps don't take all those opportunities as readily.
SPEAKER_01Love it. David, thank you for joining me um today at Future Pharma. If people wanted to reach out to you, what would be the best way?
SPEAKER_02Roman, people can reach out to me on LinkedIn to further the conversation that we've had. I welcome engagements and contacts from people on that. And finally, just thank you for the interesting conversation. I've enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_01Look forward to the next one.
SPEAKER_02Thank you.