Episode #18-Chaplain Col William R. Spencer

In this episode, Chaplain Colonel William R. Spencer, Director of Staff and Chief, Space Religious Affairs, Headquarters United States Air Force, Office of the Chief of Chaplains, stationed at the Pentagon, reflects on his 27 years of service as a military chaplain. He emphasizes the vital role of community and self-care for both those who are grieving and those tasked with delivering traumatic news. “Spence” also speaks about the importance of protecting religious freedom within the military ranks and maintaining the strict confidentiality that comes with conversations with service members. Throughout the discussion, he shares the deeply personal nature of his calling and the profound seriousness with which he approaches his role. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Turn Grief into Growth, The Journey of Transformation. It's a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein. Well, I know I start almost every podcast off, Don, with saying that I'm real excited about this guest. I'm excited about every guest that we have on, but uh I am very excited about this guest that we have. Uh it's Colonel William Spencer. He is a chaplain uh with not only Space Force, but Air Force. And um I'm gonna botch probably a lot of this unless I read his bio. Uh so I'm just gonna kind of read uh some of his bio just to kind of give our listeners uh an idea and background of Spence. Uh so Chaplain Colonel William R. Spencer is Director of Staff and Chief, Space Religious Affairs, Headquarters, United States Air Force, Office of the Chief of Chaplains stationed in the Pentagon, Washington, D.C. As Director of Staff, Chaplain Spencer plans and formulates executive support functions for the Chief of Chaplains and Deputy Chief of Chaplains on all chaplain core issues. He provides integration for two divisions, plans and programs, and personnel, budget, and readiness. As Chief Space Religious Affairs, Chaplain Spencer advises the Air Force Chief of Chaplains on religious, ethical, moral, and quality of life or morale, moral and quality of life issues for United States Space Force personnel. He is responsible for the policies, programs, and strategic plan of the Air Force Chaplain Corps, support to the United States Space Force in order to provide service members and their families with spiritual care and opportunities for the free exercise of religion. In his previous assignment, Chaplin Spencer served as a senior chaplain at Arlington National Cemetery. So you're going to hear me uh call him Spence and Spencer. Uh you might hear Don refer to him as chaplain. Uh it's not a uh lack of respect uh that I have, because I I hold this man in uh very high regard. It's that uh we lived together on the same hall at Asbury College from 92 to 96, and uh we just became close, fast friends. I was the hall chaplain, ironically, uh, for three of those years. And uh now I I get to uh sit under the tutelage, very much so, of uh chaplain Colonel William Spencer. And we've just maintained our friendship through the years, and I'm very appreciative of our friendship. So uh Don, I'm gonna kind of turn it over to you a little bit too.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah, I just want to welcome you, Chaplain. Um I am also excited. Um I don't know you nearly as well as Greg. In fact, I just met you uh today for the first time, but I know the work that you do, and uh I'm familiar with uh I have a very good friend who is uh also a uh chaplain, um, and I believe he's reached the rank of colonel in the uh Army National Guard of North Carolina. His name's Doug Winley, and I actually uh checked in with him to see if maybe the two of you have crossed paths at some time or another. Um he's a very dear friend, and uh I have learned so much uh about religion and spirituality uh through him, and um I'm I'm just super excited to have this conversation with you today and to see where it takes us.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Absolutely. Spencer, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Thank you so much, Greg and Don. It's it's it's really uh an honor and a privilege to be with you today.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

So, Spence, um take us through, obviously, I'm not gonna ask you to take us through 27 years of chaplaincy, um, but we're in a very unique uh position in the fact that Don and I have both had military sons who passed away. We have had that knock on the door, the doorbell ring. Um, we've had the devastating news. You and your chaplain corps have been the ones that have been the bearers of that bad news. Um, I have a good relationship with the chaplain who brought me my bad news uh from the army, chaplain Nathan Klein. And, you know, there's this whole aspect, uh, I was joking with him one time, but not really. I was like, hey, you were the angel of death who brought me uh my bad news to my doorstep. And, you know, he did not take offense at that, neither did I mean it in a disrespectful way. But it's there's this really hard concept and aspect when somebody brings you the worst news of your life. Um, so I don't want to just delve right into that, but I kind of do. So you've been on the um the giving side of that. Um, I think that it's uh very easy for us that have experienced that loss to take for granted how hard it is for you and your chaplains to give that news as well. So just kind of walk us through just a little bit of your experience uh with that.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

So we, you know, we call that a death notification team, and it's uh something that we uh uh train for. We don't go out uh uh alone uh on that, and and and I can only speak with the way the Air Force does it. I had one opportunity when there was no Navy chaplain uh to go with the Marine uh commander and team to provide a notification when I was stationed in Ohio. But for the most part, it was Air Force uh notifications. And uh, you know, that it comes through the notification comes through the form of a letter that is generated by the Air Force Personnel Center, which you know is out of San Antonio, and that comes into the the usually it's the it's the the closest uh military installation to the next of kin is the one that usually gets uh assigned the responsibility to make the death notification. And we try to do it as quickly as we can. The reality is in today's um uh modern uh technological, you know, savvy day, it's hard to get sometimes get to the next of kin before they've already seen it online, heard about it from somebody else, and so on. Commanders do a lot to try to um encourage there to be kind of radio silence from the unit for a while, uh, and let that process happen the way it should. Um, and so we get we get called saying there's a notification that needs to be made. So we a chaplain will get assigned, usually on the airports, a medic would get assigned to come. And then there is a commander on G series orders that will be the one that actually makes the formal notification. We will assemble uh at the personnel office, uh, go over some of the details where we're going, they'll usually assign a driver to us from the motor pool so we can be focusing on what we're gonna say and delivering the message and the what the you know our individual roles. When we arrive, um, of course, we're in class A service dress uniform, and and as as you well know, I mean, anytime a family sees uh a group of people approaching in service dress, class A uniforms to a house, it it's almost never for good news, you know, right? So a lot of times, uh, you know, when they open the door, uh we've had doors slammed in our face uh because they know and they don't want to hear it and uh they won't want to accept it. And there's been others, uh you know, we we totally respect that we're not gonna force ourselves uh into someone's home. Uh some people have just basically told us to get off in property, um, which again I think is everybody responds a little bit differently. And um uh uh but for the most part, people will just be sometimes uh some uh spouse might collapse, which is why we have the medic uh there usually with us to take care of some of the physical needs that are there. And we just ask them, may we come inside. And then there's again a formal letter that pretty much on behalf of the president, you know, there's this letter that gets read pretty much verbatim that then is left uh with the member. Um of course, there's a lot of questions that usually happen. Um are you sure? Are you sure? I just talked to him, uh, you know, or I just talked to her yesterday, or I think you've made a mistake, and you know, all of this kind of shock and and denial and kind of things like that. We will usually sit down with them at some point. The commander will usually turn to me as kind of the chaplain, the pastor, to kind of provide that pastoral care uh in the in the moment. And so we kind of uh try to pay a lot of attention to the nonverbals and and how they're doing it, but as they're just processing this devastating news here, um facilitate that conversation. But if possible, I will read scripture sometimes with the family. If they're open to that, and I always ask, would you mind if I read a passage of scripture and then pray pray together? Um and again, they have the option to say no, but most time they'll say shh, please. And um, you know, so there's that. There was another since I mentioned doing the death notification with the Marines one time, they were mostly, I think there was a there was an officer there in charge, but was a couple other enlisted, you know, big uh Marines uh there. And we went in kind of a rough part of the inner city uh in in there in Dayton, Ohio. And when we came in, uh something I'd never seen them really do before, but when we came in, instead of just sitting down in the living room, they asked, Is there anyone else here in the house? And then they actually went back through the house and kind of cleared rooms to make sure, because again, everybody responds a little differently. Some people could maybe grab a weapon or want to take action and not just order us off the property, but act out their anger in a violent way against us. And so I'd never seen that one done, but that seemed to be part of a kind of a standard operating procedure for them just to ensure the safety of everyone, you know, there uh too. And then, you know, we leave them with some other information of who's going to be reaching out to them with all the questions that they may have uh about what happens now, um, in terms of all the processes that the military will have to go through uh with remains and benefits and death gratuity and life insurance and arrangements and all of those practical details as well, which we don't always have, all of those details at the beginning, but we leave them with phone numbers and points of contact where they can reach out and they're also going to be reached out to uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

All of those things that are probably go in one ear and out the other, um for somebody who is just trying to process the fact that they just lost a child or a family member. Um I uh and I just want to share real briefly my experience was very different because I knew um I was actually on the phone with my son Josh trying to talk him out of uh taking his own life. And um so I knew before they came, in fact, uh I got a call from my daughter-in-law saying that you know somebody would be uh coming by. And when they showed up, that I I must have given uh the Keiko, I think is the way um in the Navy they uh call them, I think. Um Casualty Assistant.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Uh Casualty Affairs, uh commanding officers, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

So um so uh he walks up with the chaplain and I go out and I meet him and I just give him a hug and and I'm like thank you for being here. So he didn't even have to you know give me any information. Um and then just sitting down with him, it did it gave me so much comfort to know that um you know the military was there for me and because honestly, at that time 15 years ago, um I wasn't sure that you know suicide um how that would be looked at in the military, and and you know, I uh so the fact that he was there uh just really helped me and my family a lot. So thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah. And so when when your team came out, who all was a part of it? Was there a chaplain there as well?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

There was a chaplain and the uh casualty uh casualty assistance officer.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah. And you're right. I mean, it's I always tell people, you know, in those moments, um people will not, as you said, really remember what you said, but they'll remember that you were there.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

They remember how you made them feel, and how you made them feel, and I think that's true.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

And I always tell people when who are family and friends and going to visit at the house or going to the funeral service, people always feel like this pressure that they have to come up with something really smart to say or something that will take away the pain. And I always say, there is nothing you can say that will take away the pain, just be there. We call it in the chaplain core ministry of presence, just being there with people, uh loving them. You know, scripture talks about you know, laughing with those who laugh, crying with those who cry, and you know, but just being there, walking alongside the journey. And the other thing is, you know, uh people will say, uh, you know, uh, let us know if you need anything. And I just say, don't say that, uh, because they're never gonna let you know. They're never gonna call you. Always say, find something practical to do and just say, we're gonna take care of this for you. So you don't have to worry about it. And we're gonna be here, we're gonna do this, we're gonna bring a meal. And I and I also encourage people, you know, it's about the first two weeks after a death where there's so much activity, uh, there's so many people that come into town. It's kind of like the silver lining of death or you know, of tragedies that it forces us to stop our normal activities and come together uh as friends, as family. And it, you know, it is it's a silver lining, if you will, of these moments. But after about two weeks, that drops off precipitately. And so I always encourage people set a note on your calendar, be intentional. After two weeks, then come in and say, okay, I'm gonna mow your grass, I'm gonna get your car washed, I'm gonna take your kids here and there, and can I do that for you? Uh, but come up with practical things that you can do and try and just make it happen rather than waiting for family to reach out uh to you.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

That's great advice. I I think that um, you know, we've talked about the 30-day mark where you go out to the mailbox as a grieving uh loved one, and all of a sudden uh all the wind chimes stop coming in the mail, all the you know uh sympathy cards stop coming, and your friends retreat away and they expect you to be done with grieving. Kind of like we might give you know three to five days uh for bereavement leave at corporations here in America. So, Spence, I I know that um for Don and I, the casualty, the death notification is kind of the epitome of what we know and what we've experienced from the chaplaincy. Um like Don, I had a very good experience. Uh, got together with my chaplain, Nathan Klein, on numerous occasions, uh, had breakfast at you know a couple cracker barrels through the you know the first year and phone calls, and he he just really was there for me and helped me a lot, gave me a tour at Fort Knox, had me come in as a keynote speaker to some command leadership and different things. Um but there's so much more that you do. And I know you shared with me just about, and I'm probably gonna get this wrong, but um, you'd have a you know a whole um plane, a C-130 plane full of troops, and you're on the back tailgate in Iraq or Afghanistan, just quickly praying, going from one plane to the next to the next, praying over them before they uh take off and and uh deploy. Um there's the services that you put on. Uh there's the counseling, you know, for people that are just really struggling. There's all the different aspects. So just kind of share with us just a thumbnail of of what that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

In terms of what chaplains do. Yeah. Well, you know, we're here to provide for the free exercise of religion. That's why we exist. And that's a think back to the First Amendment of the Constitution. That's what entitles uh chaplains to do what we do for the service men and women. And so, really, I mean, our as you can imagine, our bread and butter is really deployed locations because uh, you know, when we're back stateside, you in most locations, unless it's a really remote or austere uh you know location, you can go outside the gate and find a pastor, a church, a rabbi, an imam, or whatever that you're you're looking for on a deployment. It's a different story. Um you have so that's why they embed chaplains in in deployed locations with units, um, uh and to be to be there to provide for the free exercise uh of religion. And so we do that in a couple different ways. And so we say we provide and we provide for. For example, I mean, I'm I've got a cross on my uniform, so I'm a Christian chaplain. So when it comes to providing Christian worship, I can do that. Certainly when it's in a Protestant, Christian, non-denominational kind of a service and preach Jesus uh all day long and altar calls and all that, but that's in a voluntary setting where people choose to come or not come to a worship service. Um if someone comes to me though and says, Hey chaplain, you're my unit chaplain, but I'm Catholic, and can't, how do I, who can hear my confession? Well, that's one of those cases where I can't provide that, but I can provide for it by getting my Catholic colleague to come and hear the confession. Um, and so that there is that provide what we can provide with our unique uh religious uh training and background and and and uh endorsement. But if we can't provide it, then we get someone else who can uh provide it. And the same would be true in the other traditions as well, the Jewish tradition, Muslim tradition, and so on. And so there are examples on the deployed locations where during the high holy days in the Jewish tradition, a rabbi will come and will literally hop around to the different units. And there's been some recon done through the commands to know uh based off of what's on dog tags, if people self-identify, there's so many Jewish personnel in this location and that location and so on. And they've done a survey, would you participate if the rabbi comes uh here? Yes, and so then they'll work an itinerary and they'll do that. So the military is trying, you know, very intentional about trying to provide for the free exercise of people's religion because if they're on order somewhere and we don't do that, then we're really kind of denying constitutional rights. And so anybody you know that tries to make the claims, oh, we shouldn't have chaplains in the military because it's a violation, you know, separation of church and state, it's not about that. It's it's about providing for the free exercise of your self-identified faith so that your constitutional rights uh are protected. The chaplaincy is not about um a lot of times people I think have a misconception that we're missionaries converting people from one faith to another. That may happen, but that that only happens if someone comes and says, Hey chaplain, you're Christian, chaplain, right? Well, I grew up this or I didn't grow up anything. Tell me about your tradition. Well, they've opened the door to for you for us to share that. And so, but if someone comes into us, say for a counseling situation, hey chaplain, I'm struggling with this situation in my marriage, or I'm struggling with this situation as a leader in my in my unit, and struggling getting along with people or leading people well, or or so on, I will listen to what they have to say. And you know, and that's the big thing for uh chaplains. Anytime someone comes to see. A chaplain, or even our religious affairs or enlisted counterparts, we have 100% confidentiality, which means when anyone comes and shares something with a member of the chaplain corps, it's 100% covered under the cloth, if you will, of the chaplain corps. And that's something that's even been upheld by military rules of evidence and all that. And so it's very much very respected. So people appreciate that because they can come and share and talk about anything, and they know that it doesn't go any further than that. And so there's confidentiality in that. But when people share with us, I uh chaplains are just listen and be that uh non-anxious presence in the midst of whatever's going on, to be really attuned to whatever someone is saying, giving uh them your undivided attention, no distractions, and really uh absorbing all uh you know all of that. But then I'll say, tell me about your faith tradition. And then I'll say, as a Christian, here's how I uh approach that. Here's what the Bible says about situations like that. And but you know, if they're if they're Christians, then we'll just jump right in on to the other. But if they're not, they're from another tradition. I have to respect that tradition. And I have to say, tell me from your faith tradition, how that would compare. Are there similar principles that you could pull from your religious texts or sacred texts that could help uh you know on this? Uh, and then we'll talk about and have an exchange about that. So, you know, counseling conversations, the confidentiality is a big part of it. That ministry of presence, uh, when you were reading my bio, it talks about not only what the pastoral care we provide in terms of worship and counseling and all that, but the morale aspect, advising leadership is a big part of what we do because we're really the commander of every unit owns the religious program. They're in charge ultimately of everything that happens in the care of their members. And so we're just executing that the chaplain program on behalf of the commander. And so we come up with a ministry plan every year and say, Sir ma'am, this is the needs that we've consistently seen, or here's needs we've identified in a recent survey, and here's ways that we would like to proactively help your unit strengthen its morale so that we mitigate challenges that people are having in family life, personal life, marriages, financial situations, whatever it is, so that we can be proactive in helping that commander help their people deal with whatever the issues are so that they can be a hundred percent focused on the mission and the execution, you know, there. So commanders love, yeah, chaplains to help with those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

That's a great call out. I mean, I I guess I just never conceptualize the fact of the commanders and leadership. I always think of the enlisted ranks more than anything with that. So um, and it was also very good to clarification as far as like how many people think it's a missionary type role, but respecting other people's uh religions with that.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah, I I wonder how often um is I I imagine it's a tight uh rope that you have to walk as far as confidentiality and the safety of this person as well as the safety of his unit. Um are there times where you have to kind of you know stretch that? How's that work?

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Well, it's something that the military takes very seriously that we do not violate privileged communication is what it's called, confidentiality. Um and so if someone comes to us and they want us to say, go to their leadership, their supervisor, their first sergeant, their commander, and advocate on their behalf for something, maybe they've been they've asked, hey, I'm a certain tradition or Seventh day Adventist, and I want to practice, I I and I'm scheduled to work on Saturday. Can I I want to ask if I can work on Sunday instead of Saturday so I can go to my worship services? And the command, the my supervisor has kind of just said, you know, no. Well, we can advocate for them, but in order to do so, what I do is we we take the privilege communication so seriously. The member owns that, and they have to give me written permission. So we have a form that they have to sign saying I give Chaplain Spencer permission to talk to my leadership about X. And then they sign it, I sign it, and I even get a disinterested third party in somewhere to come and sign it as a witness. That's how seriously that that's taken. I can't just decide, I think I can share this, I think I can share that. We can share trends in general without names and so on. And so what we try to be really careful when we come to like uh quarterly or twice-a year meetings where the command will pull in the docs, they'll pull in the first sergeant, they'll pull in the family advocacy, all the all the helping agencies of the base, including the Chaplain Corps, and they'll say, let's let's talk collectively, but also individually, things you're seeing. And we'll put up on slides, you know, a pie chart or something, or and we'll say, sir, ma'am, we've seen an uptick in a number of counseling cases related to uh marriage issues, uh divorce issues. And so the commanders are looking for those trends.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah. And we and then, okay, Chaplin, how are you going to help me get after solving that? That's what they're looking for. But I can't just go into a commander and say, hey, you need to go talk to Airman Snuffy or send some because he's really, you know, that'd be a violation of that, unless they've given me that written permission. Now, whenever I brief this 100% confidentiality and privilege communication, I always get people uh that will try to play uh stump the chaplain. Well, what if they say, Well, I'm going to take a gun and I'm going to follow the commander and wait for him to come out of the office and I'm going to take action and try to kill the commander. What about then? Will you go tell the commander is that a violation of privileged communication? Or, you know, I or sometimes they'll say, I'm I um I'm really thinking about taking my life. And then we'll say, Hmm, my goodness, what's going on? I mean, you know, that you know, of course we'll say that that's not the answer, my friend. You know, let's talk about this. Um, but uh sometimes they'll say, Chaplain, there's nothing you can say or do. I've made up my mind. Well, if we talk about means, what's your what was your what is your plan? How would you do this? And try to continue the conversation as much as we can, and then say, you know, that is not the answer uh to this situation, and try to open the aperture uh of whatever it is that they're so zoomed in on that they cannot see any circumstance of life moving on beyond that. Um, but if they're just bound and determined, I don't violate privileged communication, but what I will say is, well, I'd really like for you to come with me to go see mental health. Um, and and I will accompany you over there. I um and if they say, well, no, chaplain, I don't I don't want to do that, okay. Well, you're gonna have to explain why the chaplain's gonna be following you around everywhere you go, uh, to the bathroom, to home, wherever, because I am not gonna leave you until we get you the help that you need, and you can see a different path for yourself beyond that. And then, are you serious? I am I am serious. Uh I care about you. Your life is so important, and this is not the answer. There is another way, and uh, and I am committed to walking alongside you to help you until we figure out what that is. And uh, so will you go with me? Will you come with me? And so, and a lot of times they'll relent finally and say, Okay, chaplain, I can see you're serious. And I'll get one of my chaplain colleagues or my religious affairs uh enlisted counterpart and say, Hey, can you pull a car around and can you drive us over? And I never want to leave them alone. I don't want them to drive their car to follow me because they could make a rash, you know, they can make a turn, they could run their car into somebody or something and whatever. So, but I also have to protect myself and I also have to protect my chaplain assistant, so that's why we do it in the in uh teams. Um, you know, another uh, you know, not related to this aspect, but another unique thing about the chaplain is that we're non-combatants, so we are never armed. Um, that responsibility falls onto our enlisted counterparts. They are charged with, in addition to their administrative uh duties of setting up the chapel and ordering communion wine and hymnals or whatever the things we need to conduct services, they do triage for us and they're trained in that. But force protection is a part because they are uh they are combatants and they do arm up, um, not typically in a in a stateside setting, but uh and certainly in a deployed setting. So while chaplains are focused on ministry, care of the injured, the dead, uh, the rights uh or the dying, they're focusing on the threats. Uh and so they've got a back and protecting us, and they'll say, Chaplain, you do your job, and my job is to protect you so you can do your job. So don't worry about what's going on around, just focus on what you need to do. And um, so anyway, that's why we we're very much the off chaplain as an officer in our religious affairs, usually called chaplain assistants, is our enlisted counterparts. We're very much a team. We call ourselves the religious support team. And so you typically don't see a chaplain without the other counterpart uh nearby because we we need each other because we have different skill sets.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

I have a I have one question for you. And uh that comes into uh a comment I heard earlier on in my grief journey that the military is really good at putting people on the ground. They're not very good at the follow-up afterwards with the families. I don't mean that to besmirch the military. Um I think there is um everything you have just explained uh on this podcast is very organized, systematic. I don't want our listeners to think that there's not emotion in this. I I've seen Spencer cry. I have recently been to Arlington with him, um visiting a friend's grave, and and a couple down from that uh fallen soldier was a colleague of his who passed away from a heart attack uh out in Colorado. And uh and I could see the emotion on his face uh with that. So I think it's very it's it's real to point out that they lead real lives. They're affected by all of this, just like you know, uh a person in ministry in the civilian world. The question I have for you is um, you know, for Don and I, we work both with the military uh families, not just you know, parents. I've got you know military spouses who have lost their you know husband or wife in the military type thing. Um, but we also work with the civilian uh aspect. Um so what advice would you give us? So this kind of goes to the turning grief into growth uh title of the podcast. We always want to bring it back full circle of that. Uh but what advice would you give us as far as how to really um come alongside people? Because you'd you'd mentioned the gift of presence uh several times at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yes. Um you know it's uh yes, we we have um experienced grief uh ourselves. And so, you know, we when we lose uh commanders, like you mentioned, my commander back in Colorado. I remember that day vividly, and uh he was exercising at home, and uh I had I was his chaplain, and uh they're the 21st Space Wing there in Colorado Springs at Peterson Space Force Base, and um, you know, he was yeah, exercising at home and dropped essentially on the treadmill, and his young boys, uh single-digit age uh boys discovered him and went to a neighbor and called for help. And so I heard as the things started coming across um uh when the the first responders were coming, and was able to get one of my chaplains uh there and he came and he and and he came from a Catholic uh tradition. Um and uh he was able to do last rites in the home and as his spouse finally got there. Um but I had taught Iwanus to his voice at the base chapel. And uh, you know, and so for you know, for him all of that to happen and a memorial service took place there in a hangar uh at Peterson and then interment at Arlington took place months later with a different uh chapel team uh providing the ministry there. But the relationship with uh the family there was ongoing. I think they were allowed to stay in base housing for a longer period of time. It wasn't okay, you need to move out of the commander's house and so on and give that up. There was great sensitivity by the military to say take as much time as you need until you figure out what's next for you and the family. And do you want to stay here, Colorado? Do you want to move back with uh need to be closer to family and whatever that is? So six months, a year. I've seen that. I there was another instance where we had it down at McDill Air Force Base, um a maintenance group commander, uh another 06. Uh uh, I think he was just sitting in the living room at home at night, and I think it was an aneurysm watching TV, and he was gone. And uh he and I had been running that morning on the path and talking about life, and he'd just taking a cruise with his family, and we were running along Tampa Bay, this beautiful running path there, and uh and he was gone. And we had to do the memorial service uh for him and uh there again, and another hangar to accommodate the number of folks and all the maintainers that took care of the refueling aircraft and so on. Similar situation. The family was entitled and uh and offered to stay as long as the they needed to. You know, some of those families are involved in the base chapel, and that is a way to maintain that connection point with the military. Um some are involved in a church outside the gates, and and that's you know, that's a personal choice, right? And I hope if if that's the case, uh then that that relationship with their church family, their mosque synagogue family continues on uh with their religious leaders in a way that's uh you know uh meaningful uh there. So keeping those, those, the the the community matters uh long term, staying connected with the with um with your um other people that have gone through loss themselves is so important in that growth process. Staying connected with your uh with through remembrance rituals that you do on a regular uh basis to remember uh loved ones, share stories of loved ones. Um, you know, a lot of people used to say to me, I you know, I'm going to see somebody, you know, and that, you know, and I uh I should I bring up a story that I remember about their loved one? I'm afraid it'll make them sad, you know, or it'll make them cry. Well, it might, but it'll also bring joy. That's right. And the fact that you someone else remembers their loved one and their life had made an impact uh on someone else's life, and I'm not grieving this loss alone. And so I always encourage tell those stories because it because it lives on. One of the things that I loved when I was able when I served at Arlington Cemetery, even though our time with the families were relatively short, was to getting to know the stories of the individuals uh who are being interred at Arlington. We would see the schedule because you know, Arlington goes way out as far as the scheduling. And some families have to wait months, some have had to wait over a year um uh for interment, particularly if it's uh cremains uh uh there uh just because of the volume. You know, they can do up to 30 services a day at Arlington, um, but uh it it's just that busy and it takes that long. So anyway, we we we know when services are gonna happen. So months, weeks in advance, we reach out to the families and we over the phone have a phone conversation with the the next of Ken. We talk about their time when they're gonna be at Arlington, uh, the stories that they want to share. Do they want to share that? Do you want me to share that as the chaplain? Are there scriptures that were meaningful to your loved one? If they want to have a service in the chapel there at Fort Meyer, which is always a family's choice, uh, what songs do you want sung uh, you know, there and so on? So we try to, you know, personalize it that you know there too. So we work on all that too, uh, you know, there's a lot of things that are standard operating procedure that's just part of the honors that are given uh there with the you know, the playing of taps, flag folding, and and and and the firing of the volleys and the presentation of the flag. But there's a lot of other stuff that we can do to make it personal, and a big part of that is telling the stories. And so I always try to tailor every um uh service that I did at Arlington with as much of the personal details of their military service, their personal life, their gifts, their passion, their uh their calling, the things that they enjoyed, the great memories that their spouse or kids or grandkids or friends had to say about them, their their great attributes, um, their their uh their hobbies, their their greatest trip that they ever took, and and why, and so on. But because I would do that and the decorations that they earned and were given and um makes it personable. Yeah, and then the the interesting thing is when we were done with all that, and I and I would talk to the families after the service, they said, you know, he's he's been gone for a year and a half now. He said, But as you were talking and telling the stories, and we were able to laugh, we were able to cross it. It was like they were with us again. Yeah, uh the stories uh brought them back, and so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

No, it's I I have a question, um, and I it this is uh for our our listeners. Um, you know, you put yourself out there, you are a caregiver, uh your your chaplain core is care, they're all caregivers. What uh can you tell our listeners um one thing or a few things that you do to take care of you and and take care of the like the you know people that are caregivers need to have something to take care of themselves as they pour their cup into other people. Um what do you do and and what do you ask your chaplains to do for themselves?

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Well, our chief of chaplains uh here uh for the Air Force and the and the Space Force, he uses a water bottle illustration. I don't have one here handy, but he takes that bottle, takes the lid off, and he'll pour a little bit out here, pour a little bit, keeps doing it until that bottle's empty. And he'll say, This is what we do in ministry as chaplains. We give a little hearing, we give a little hearing, and we pour ourselves out in the service of God and for our country and helping people. And he said, But you've got to find a way to refill your water bottle, and you've got to find what that is for you. Okay, and obviously for me, you could talk about it in terms of you know comprehensive uh human wellness or health. And there's like there's physical aspects, there's social aspects, there's emotional or mental aspects of our lives, and then there's spiritual aspects of it. So that's kind of the way I typically think about it. So physically, I mean, am I eating well? Am I getting enough sleep? Am I Sleeping well. That you know, that's important. Am I exercising? Am I enjoying uh walks uh with my wife where that could be physical and social, right? And emotional. And we're having good conversations, walking our dog, um, just enjoying the beauty of creation, you know, taking that in, uh, you know, uh there um the social, you know, grief is hard because there's times where I don't want to talk to people. Yeah, I don't want people to ask me, and I'd always tell people that's okay. Uh, you know, you want to go some to a place of solitude. At Arlington, I would see people who would bring lawn chairs or blankets and come and just sit for the entirety of a day uh at their loved ones' grave. Uh, there was one gentleman that I knew who came to our his wife's buried at Arlington. He's a service member, so his spouse is already buried there. He comes every day to Arlington. Uh and he's there. And we all know him, you know, uh by name, you know, there. So uh everybody has a different timeline for grief, everybody uh has it in different ways, handles it in different ways. But I always tell people, you know, if you get stuck in a certain area, so that's kind of back to your growth question. There's, you know, it's this lifetime continuum that there's I don't like the word closure. I don't think we're ever going to have closure. You learn to live with it alongside love in in new ways uh in your in your life. So that's where the the growth growth is, and you can have sadness and and joy somehow coexisting together there because of love. Um, you know, there that's wisdom. But but taking for my for myself, like my dad passed away uh in 2011 at age 61. He had a heart attack in his sleep. Was that out of the blue? He had had some health issues, but we weren't expecting it to pass away. Um for me, the way I take care of myself in grief situations and as I pour myself out uh for others is you know, the physical things that we're talking about there, but social things are important uh too. I'm getting, we Greg was talking about we were on the same hall in college. I'm getting together this weekend with two other guys from our hall to just get out way in a cabin in the mountains in West Virginia and have good food and laugh and tell stories and go on hikes and and just do some fun stuff together.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

You must have missed that invite.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

I was gonna say, Craig's wondering why I see where I am on the spectrum. We've got our 30th though this uh summer, so I'm looking forward to that. We definitely want to expand that. But yeah, this is a smaller group of uh a couple of us, but but that's important. Um but you've also got to find um spiritual things too. And there were times where I didn't want to go to church, I didn't want to pray, I didn't want to hear some trite message, some pat answer uh, you know, about it, well, God needed, you know, something you know, something like when a child passes away, it's uh or a young child, God needed another angel in his water. And I I just want to pull my hair out. Yeah, and you know, and it's like don't say things, you know, like that. But but that's but that's honest. And I also will tell people if the only thing you can say to God is is curse words and cuss at him, go ahead. He's a big boy, he can handle it. And he'll love you right where you are. And that's right.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

We've talked at length about that, you know, just because of, you know, I've I've struggled with that. And uh, you know, I I chuck my fist at God at times, and you know, I knew that he was a big God. So, Spencer, we're gonna uh wrap this up. Um, I can't thank you enough uh for coming on. I I will mention just this real quick. You don't realize a lot of times in life the little things uh of how tantamount they could be for others. Um so when my son David died, he died in Colorado Springs, Colorado, outside Fort Carson. It was December 23rd, 2020. Spence happened to be stationed out there at the Air Force Base, not the Army. It was not the same branch of military or anything. Uh, but I remember getting an email that they were going to crush David's car that was in the impound lot. If there was anything in there that we wanted, we had so many days to get it out. And I reached out to him and uh I just said, Man, would you be willing to drive over to the Colorado Springs Police Department impound lot? Here's the address, and see if there's anything that you can get out of his car. And I think you had to even pry the trunk open because the car had flipped. And uh I got this big box in the mail and it it had a walking stick in it. But the the most important thing, and you can't see it, uh, it's on another wall in my office, was it had his flag jacket and uh for the military. And I I hold that in such high esteem on my wall. Uh it's it I look at it every single day, and it wouldn't be there if you hadn't been selfless and had gone out there for me. You didn't have to. Um, and and it uh wasn't just because we were friends. I I truly believe you have the heart that you would have done that uh for anybody who asked. So I I want to thank you uh from the bottom of my heart for who you are as a human. You're a good human, you're an incredible chaplain, um, you're a great father, you're a great husband. I know your family. And um we just really thank you so much for coming on this podcast today.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Thank you so much. I completely concur.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation. If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them. Uh and don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next. Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth. Until next time.