Episode #27-Man in the Mirror

In this episode, Don and Greg explore what it means to engage in self-reflection and attempt to define what progress truly looks like throughout one’s grief journey. They share how vulnerability and authenticity are absolutely essential in determining the path forward, fostering growth, and recognizing when it is necessary to ask for help.

Grief is not a linear path; it often zigzags in unexpected directions. At times, it may feel like two steps forward and one step back. However, when evaluating yourself in the mirror, do not simply focus on the person staring back at you today compared to yesterday. Instead, take a journey back in time to recognize how far you have already come, while also considering how much further you hope to grow and heal along the way.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation. This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein. Well, good morning, good evening, and good night. I usually say good day, Don, but I'm going to switch it up a little bit. So how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Good night is it's like, are we done? Did we finish the podcast already?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

We're going to put this to bed.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

That was the quickest episode we've had.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

That's right. Well, I'm going to share my screen real quick. Um, and I am going to uh kind of uh play a little uh clip of what this episode is gonna be about. So hold on, and uh here we go.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

So for those of you who aren't on YouTube and you're just listening, hopefully they can hear it. Yeah. Oh, it's um oh so a little Michael Jackson for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Were you able to hear that, Don?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

I I hit all the buttons right for share sound. So uh we're gonna entitle this Man in the Mirror, uh Woman in the Mirror as well. Um Whoever You Are uh, really, this is about kind of your reflection and your progress uh along the way. As we've stated in previous podcasts, um we come up with the topic and we kind of uh just leave it organic uh in our conversation. We don't have a bunch of uh uh agenda or line items or questions prepared ahead of time. Uh we just kind of want to see where it's going and uh take it from there. So, Don, I'm gonna start us off with just kind of the concept of um where all this came from. I I do a parallel podcast called Ponderings and Musings of an Ordinary Man. Um, doesn't have half the listeners as this one does, but I I had done a podcast on that one recently by myself, which is not as fun, I will say, as having uh a co-host. And it was basically dealing with uh the fact that Don here, for over five years and four months, has been telling me, Greg, I can really see a lot of progress in you. I could really see that you have come a long way in your grief journey. And we're gonna we're gonna define progress here in just a little bit. Um, but um I was kind of one of those doubting Thomas kind of guys where I needed to see the proof uh for myself, and I wasn't really buying into just somebody telling me that I was uh advancing or progressing or doing okay in my grief journey. Uh so what I decided to do was go back through some of my Google photos. And um, as uh Don pointed out, for those that are not on YouTube, they won't be able to see this. But uh, I'm sharing a picture of uh myself on the left in a leather coat, and that was the day of my son David's funeral. Um that he died December 23rd, 2020. But by the time we got him back from Colorado, where he passed away, it was a couple weeks later in January. Um, but that was the worst day of my life. And I go back to that picture quite frequently in uh Google Photos, uh, just to kind of remember. Um, and the one on the right was a couple of weeks ago at Easter 2026, and it's just a different person uh all around. Um, I I had that picture printed and made a little collage, and I have it sitting on my desk in a little four by six uh picture frame, uh sits right in front of me. And I know some people be like, why would you want to be reminded of the worst day of your life? And I really don't, per se. That's that's not why I made it. I want to be reminded of the growth uh in the transformation that's taken place. And sometimes I need to remind myself of uh what that looks like, Don, uh, rather than somebody else just uh tell me.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Yeah, uh great idea. Uh absolutely I love the idea uh of you uh putting that together to help remember. Um you know, when I see that picture, it's and I know how tall you are. You're you're a giant. And when, you know, the picture on the right, at least as we're looking at it, uh as we see it, uh, which is this past Easter, you're you're a gentle giant. Um the picture on the left uh uh is somebody that I don't recognize. Um and uh, you know, you've got this frown, um and uh like I don't know how I'd feel if if I ran into you in a dark alley. Yeah, like you know, it would have been uh scary for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to run into you in a dark alley. Um I I felt like I could beat the crap out of anybody at that point in time. I felt like the world was totally against me. I had lost all sense of directing light, um, all sense of hope. Um why did this happen to me? Um and I was pissed off at God, I was pissed off at the world. Um, I had family around me patting me on the shoulder, saying it's gonna be okay, you're gonna be all right. And I'm like, really? How do you know? You've never encountered this. Uh at the point in time of that funeral, I thought I was the only person in the world who had ever lost a son. Um, I didn't realize there was others out there who had lost children or had other kinds of loss uh as well. Um, I felt and like I was an island unto myself, and there was no path forward. I'd always had a path forward in life. I'd always been an optimist and a realist at the same time. Uh, didn't just take things willy-nilly. I always evaluated when I went to Baskin Robbins, I had the hardest time because there were 36 flavors there, and I was like, I don't know which one to choose. And I had to really evaluate do I want cherry cordial, do I want Rocky Road or Neapolitan or what? Maybe what what happens if I make the wrong choice, Don, uh in choosing ice cream? Well, this wasn't ice cream. This was my life and whether I wanted to move forward with it or not. A couple months after that, uh, it was on my wife's birthday, February 9th, 20 uh 21, um, uh three days before my son's birthday, actually, uh, who passed. And I remember um contemplating taking my life uh out at the cemetery that night. Uh, we got out to dinner with my wife at Cheesecake Factory, and I felt this cloud come over me of depression and just settle in. She looked at me, she goes, I I see, I see it. I see it in your eyes. I see that you're just going down this hole. What's going on? And uh her and my daughter were sitting across from me at Cheesecake Factory, and I just got pissed off at the world again. And I dropped them off at home, went out to the cemetery, and I debated taking my life. And I called my best friend, and he said, Do I need to come and meet you? And I said, No, just stay on the phone. And I remember we talked for about an hour and a half, and he was only four miles up the road, he would have driven down. Um, but I look back to that point of my life, of the worst point, and there's a lot of my friends that probably don't know any of that about me, uh, because they identify me as, like you said, the gentle giant, somebody that's got a big heart, that has always been willing to help others and serve others and coach and mentor others, uh, to the point of I didn't know how to ask for help. Bottom line. Um, and I look at where I'm at now, and it's quite humbling to me, because it's people like you and others along the way that have taken me under their wing and have uh said, hey, I I'm a little further down the road. Let me help hold the flashlight for you as you traverse this rocky path. And that's where I'm at today. And I can honestly look back in retrospect and say, I've made progress. Um, so Don, help us define what progress means in the definition of that.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

You know, I'm grateful that you played um the man in the mirror to start this episode off. I uh because I I feel like progress uh requires um a lot of self reflection, um, looking inside of ourselves and and determining um you know what we want to do, um what how we're feeling. Uh you know, oftentimes, especially for us men, we don't we can't even name our feelings. I I know we've we've talked about that before. Um and we also just had an episode, I think our last episode, where we talked about choices. And um so progress is it's you know defined uh uh very differently, uniquely for each person. Uh one person's progress may be another person's um, you know, but they they may see that and not think of it as progress at all. Um but when we when we're talking about grief, I think progress is just that we're moving, that we're not stuck, and that we're able to look inside of ourselves and determine what it is we want to do, what direction we want to head. Um and you know, initially, uh you know, that picture of you, um you weren't uh you had no idea. Uh I'm sure you had zero uh idea as to what direction you wanted to head. You didn't know. This is first time you ever lost somebody, you know, that close to you. And um but you made choices and um you decided you know those choices were uh sustainable choices. Uh so uh that's progress.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

You know, you mentioned um what one person's progress is might not be for the other. Um I went out to the cemetery every single day for the first year or two. Um I would take a sack lunch out there and I would eat my lunch out there, take my chair and set up. Um, I'd lay down on his grave and I felt close to him, even though I knew that he wasn't there. That was the last time I saw my son, he went in the ground. So I'd lay on his grave and I thought, man, if somebody drives by and sees me laying on his grave, are they gonna call the cops? Are they gonna call the cemetery tender? What's gonna happen here? And I and I just didn't really care. But I'd watch the controls of the uh uh chemtrails controls, whatever they're called, of the planes as I'd fly over. And I just kind of would sit there and talk to David. So I I mention all that to say that there was a commonality, there was a there was a um comfort level, not commonality, but a comfort level for going to the cemetery for me. Uh versus I've walked a lot of men uh through going to the cemetery for the first time, two, three, four, five, ten years later. And it's the most ominous feeling for them, but that is progress, even if it's 10 years later. Versus me, I go out there all the time, I water flowers, I say, hey David, and it's my park that I walk three miles in most days. Um, so there's different levels of progress. What I would say is where the danger comes in is playing the comparison game. Uh, we have to be very careful. What works for one person might not work for another. Um, giving counsel to somebody of saying, hey, um, you know, uh having an affair or getting divorced is commonplace after um, you know, a grief of losing a child isn't necessarily helpful, even though that might happen. Uh, but going to marriage counseling is, and making sure that you're on the same page with your spouse and uh the other person that's walking this path with you. So there's there's all we have to be careful on the advice we give, even if we say I have street cred and I have skin in this game, and I have walked the the travailed the pits of hell, uh, it still has to be advice that is based with this is what has worked for me. It might not work for you. Uh it might be very harrowing for you to go to the cemetery. Um, so to encourage somebody, well, that's something you have to do. You got to go there. It it might not be for them. That might not work for that.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Right. Well, and and you know, you mentioned earlier how you um you went to the cemetery and thought about ending your life. Um and you called a buddy and just talked to them. And you know, when I think about that, uh you were in such pain. Um you didn't really want to die, you just wanted to end the pain. That's right. And um you know, for those of us who have lost somebody to suicide, I think that's often the case that the person that that we lost uh didn't really want to die, uh, but the pain was so great and they didn't know how to end it other than to take their own life. Um I'm grateful that you uh chose to do what you did and call this person and not end your life and to you know find that healing path. Um because uh well we wouldn't have this podcast if you weren't here. Yeah. Um but we I would I would be you'd be doing it with some other you know dude out there and you know it'd be carrying on. But but you're valuable, uh and and when I think about you know the work that you're doing to uh make a difference and to to help other dads uh get through the pain that you experienced. Um and you know, I I'm gonna guess there's a high percentage of fathers who've lost a child that have thought about you know what's what is it why continue on with my life? Like it doesn't seem to be that important anymore, right? But um but it is and and I think you know it's important that we recognize uh that there are a lot of people in in very deep pain. Um but that they can come out of it if they choose to do so, like you did.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

You know, I think authenticity and vulnerability is the name of the game. Um I think there's a lot of people out there, Don, who are just hurting and are contemplating making that hurt go away, um, and just saying it's not worth it. And I think it's important to call out that there's a lot of people that feel that way that put a facade on every single day because social norms tell us not to talk about that stuff. Um, keep your you know, your stuff together, keep it private, don't don't uh you know, share those taboo topics. Um, we've done a horrible job as a society, we've done a horrible job as a church uh out there in religion of suppressing uh conversations on those things. Um and I I think that you know it's way past time that we're vulnerable and authentic. So I lead by example. I I was a deacon over men's ministry for 20-something years. Um when I had that thought on my wife's birthday, June 9th of 21, and there was probably two or three past that. Uh, I remember talking to my wife a couple weeks later and sharing that with her. And I thought, man, she's gonna divorce me. She's gonna be like, Greg, what were you thinking? And you know her comment to me, she said, Oh, she said, uh, was that the first time I've had about two or three of those thoughts so far about ending it all? And I thought, here's my wife, you know, at that time of 26 years, coming up on 30 in a couple months. And she's having those thoughts. And we'd never talked about it, you know, in all these years of marriage, uh, enough to be able to be real. So it really opened up an avenue for our marriage and conversation and intimacy of just being able to talk about the the most taboo topics. And I thought, man, if we're dealing with this, how many other people out there are putting a facade on and saying, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'll be all right. Um, so I getting back to progress, I think that there has to be some form of measurement for you to be able to say, okay, I was at this point in point A, like the picture on the left for me on the day of David's funeral, and now I'm at this point. It's not always a linear line. It's sometimes two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back. Um, but I do think that Google Photos, for example, is a good measuring point of being able to see the consternation, the depression uh that somebody that is grieving hard and mourning uh started out as. And through time, and there's no like, well, by six months, Don, you should experience this. And then at 18 months, you should know there's no timeline on that. Um, but I do believe that you should see uh some form of growth. We always come back to the title of this. This is turning grief into growth, the journey of transformation.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Well, you know, uh and and that growth doesn't always mean moving forward. Sometimes, you know, we do take steps backward. And and uh if you look at the grief journey, um it's not like you say, it's not linear, it's zigzag. I mean, it's all over the place. It's it's a roller coaster. Um one of the things that you know we mentioned earlier, and and you just brought this up, um, authenticity and and being authentic and and being vulnerable, like the fact that you were able to to talk to your uh your wife, Amy, about this, and that she was able to then share, like you gave her permission to share her uh deep dark um thoughts as well. It's that reflecting and and self-reflection, we have to be totally authentic, not just with other people, but with ourselves. And I know for me, um, that is something since Josh has died, um, that I have craved. And one of the reasons you and I have become so close is the fact that we can be authentic with each other, um, that we can look at ourselves and say, you know, this is really fucked up. Uh I need I need to change this about me. Um uh like I don't like this piece, so I'm gonna change. Um and I think, you know, I I know that you're you're the same. We've had some really good talks. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

So you know, I remember an event probably four years ago. It was after David died. I was walking out of church, and there was a guy that saw me out in the parking lot, and I knew him uh not really well. And he walked up to me and he said, Hey man, he said, uh, I'm not doing good. He said, Do you mind just kind of keeping an eye on me and checking in on me from time to time? And I've never forgot that. I've seen him twice in the last uh two weeks uh at Starbucks, and it's uh interesting because I could see progress in him, and I have stayed in touch with him uh from afar, not real close all the time. Um, but I thought, man, what kind of a person does it take? It takes somebody with real good intestinal fortitude and strength to walk up to somebody and say, I'm not doing well. Just keep an eye on me. Check in, check in with me from time to time if you don't mind. So I do think that there's an element of progress that takes proactivity on our part to be able to know how to ask for help and how to say, Hey, you seem to be doing okay. Do you mind sharing with me maybe some parameters you put in place, some guardrails along the way? How did you cut out some toxic relationships that just really were not uh profitable for you in your life without having regrets, without looking back? Um, you know, so I think that there's just this this proactivity of asking for help, you know, with that.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

It that takes a lot of courage, doesn't it? It does to ask for help and to, you know, especially for us men. Um, I think women, um, you know, women will, I know my wife will ask somebody for directions or where do I find this in the store? While I'm walking all over the store trying to find it, she's asking somebody. And you know, I'm never gonna ask somebody for directions. I've got a GPS. Um but that's what Google Maps is for. But you know, she's she has no problem asking people. Uh it takes and it doesn't take courage to ask for directions, but you know, it does take some courage to ask for help.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

And um, and you know, I I'll be the first to admit I'm I'm a little stubborn when it comes to that. I feel like I can handle things. Um, but I also recognize uh because I've done a lot of self-reflecting, when it's too much for me, um, when I can't, you know, handle it. And then it's like, okay, I I need to, you know, I need to get additional help.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

And I think it's important to call out too that if you're a caregiver, um, and if you're on the coaching side and mentoring side, like Don and I are, don't take it for granted that you don't need help yourself because what happens is you empty yourself out and you have to be able to replenish um that nutrients that you're giving to everybody else. And it can be very burdensome and ominous and lonely uh at times. You know, the other thing is don't take for granted that you see like that picture on the right of me at Easter 2026 and assume, okay, he's fine from here on out. Uh, because life continues to come at us fast. Uh, just this week, I was just thinking, you know, I talked to a really good buddy of mine who lost his son six months before me, who was really there for me at the beginning, whose daughter was just diagnosed with cancer. Um, so obviously he's going through this whole fear factor of I don't want to lose another child, and how do I get her through this and taking care of the grandkids? You know, another, you know, lady that I just met recently, you know, she's 15 years out from losing her son to suicide. And, you know, her other son is now struggling with depression and divorce and suicidal thoughts. And she dropped what she you know was doing and you know, was visiting him nonstop and just being able to be there. Um, and life comes at you fast. I've got another guy who um he lost his son uh 13 months ago and then you know found out that uh you know him and his wife were you know drawing apart and uh you know she filed for divorce and he's having to work through this whole aspect of divorce now on top of all the grief. Uh and this is just the last couple days. So I guess that life continues on. There's all these other parameters that is not just uh identified and marked from that one point in time of your major loss, um, that you have to you can't wave the white flag. You can't say, Stop. I I am not taking any more, I can't handle this. I guess you could, and that's what I said I dealt with earlier on. Um, but there are things that still come at you, and you have to be willing to say, okay, I have progressed, but I also am smart enough to know that uh I could spiral at any moment. So I'm gonna make sure I have the uh the structure in place of support to make sure that I can go to this person or this group at any time when I need help.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

That's exactly why it's so important that we are able to look inside of ourselves, um, see the see the person uh and and authentically like and and vulnerably and and say, Hey, um, this is you know this is me, uh, because you're absolutely right. That picture from Easter, that's that was you on Easter, but it doesn't mean that's going to be you next year or you know even next month. Um and uh so yeah, this is a good topic that I'm glad we're we're talking about this because uh it's really important self-reflection, um being able to look at ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

I agree. So, in closing, we're gonna call this man the mirror because I was a man in the mirror looking at myself every day and didn't see the progress that was taking place. It was the same gray goatee, you know, on my chin. It was the same teeth I brushed every single day. Um, but what I do now that I have this collage picture in front of me is I look into my eyes when I look in the mirror, and I I do a self-evaluation now every time I look in the mirror. And it's different. It's different for me now than it was before because it's not the same person constantly staring back at me. Uh every day, it's a different person. So well, Don, I think this is a great discussion. Uh we'll keep them up until next time.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Thanks, Greg.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

My pleasure. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation. If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them. And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next. Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth. Until next time.