Episode #33-Steve Karaiskos, PH.D

In this episode, we are joined by Steven Karaiskos, Ph.D., an educator, psychologist, and emotion scientist with more than 25 years of experience in the field of education. He is the founder of Elpis Consulting and serves as the Director of Postvention & Community Programming at The Kita Center, where he develops grief-informed retreats, peer support initiatives, and programs for individuals and families impacted by suicide loss. His work includes Camp Kita, a free summer camp for youth ages 8–17 who have experienced the loss of a loved one.

Steven also consults with Sea Change Mentoring on culturally responsive Social-Emotional Learning (SEL) programming and previously served as Senior Director of Education at Samaritans, a Boston-based suicide prevention organization.

A nationally recognized speaker, facilitator, and writer, Steven’s work focuses on fostering belonging, emotional safety, and meaningful human connection across the lifespan. By integrating research, human-centered practices, and his own lived experience as a suicide loss survivor, he brings a unique and compassionate perspective to supporting individuals, families, and communities navigating grief and loss.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation. This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein. Well, good morning, Don. I am freshly back from the good old island of Ireland. And I know you went last year, and that's why I am wearing my hat. For those on YouTube, they can actually see that I bought this hat uh in the Aaron Islands, just off of the west coast of uh Ireland. So had an incredible trip. I don't know if it rivals uh your lighthouse that you walk around every morning uh on your island, uh, but uh it was definitely beautiful scenery that I had.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

How are you doing today? I doing really well, but I did hear that your um your photos uh far out do my uh my walks around the lighthouse.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

We did have one of our former guests on that uh messaged me the day I posted on Facebook uh my pictures of cliffs of Moore, and they said that it rivaled your lighthouse. So I don't know. We'll see. Uh well, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Uh this um how and I should check in with you real quick. How was your father's day? I know that can be hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

You know, it was really interesting because I uh took a flight back on Father's Day from Ireland. Um, and it wasn't until um I was on my drive back from the airport. We had about an hour and a half drive back. We were about 30 minutes from home. For whatever reason, I just looked off to the left side and I got a tear in my eye, uh, just missing my son. And uh that's about as far as it went. I I allowed the freedom for that tear to fall, and it didn't, it just kind of hung there and uh lasted about 15 seconds for me. I acknowledged it and uh I moved forward. But this is the first Father's Day in uh five years that uh I did not send out a whole bunch of text to my downline of people that I know who have lost children and have gone through loss, and I was okay with that. It was good just to kind of take a reprieve, hit the pause button on that, and uh let it uh just happen organically the way it did. So thank you for asking. How about you, Don?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Yeah, well, um, I got probably the best gift I've ever received for Father's Day. And oh, look at that. For for those of you who can't see on YouTube, I'm holding up it's emergency dad jokes. There's a hundred absolutely terrible jokes to annoy pretty much everyone. And I'm gonna share one.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yes, I was gonna say you've got to share one.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah. I always knock before opening the fridge just in case there's salad dressing in there.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

You don't want to interrupt a nude salad dressing. That would be the end of it right there. Modesty. Oh, that's awesome. Anyway. Well, Don, how about you introduce our guest today?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Absolutely. Well, you know, Steven has a bio that I it's it's long. Um, and it is uh and and you're gonna be able to read it because I think um we're gonna post that. Uh and I would like for everyone to read that when um they do.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

But I'll post it on the bio description uh for the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah. Um but uh he is very accomplished. Um I and it it warms my heart that he said yes to uh join us today because I know he's got a real busy day. Um and uh I know him, I know Steven, and and he sometimes will uh over uh over schedule himself. So uh I my heart's full um that you decided to say yes uh for this today. And um he's a he's such a good person, and I'm gonna let him talk about himself. I think that's probably the best.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Welcome, Steven. Well, thank you. Thank you both. And Don, I um right back at you about your wonderful human. And I I'm just meeting Greg, so I'm I I uh I'm sure since you're all connected that um it's all true there too, Greg. But um I yeah, I really appreciate the invitation and I was like, gosh, I this is one I have to say yes to, right? Not even didn't even I I knew what was going on today for me, which I'm sure I'll share in a minute, but I was like, gosh, this has to happen too. So it's I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

I do so why don't you begin with Stephen? Just um what uh brought you to uh uh tell us about your grief, your grief story and uh and yeah briefly, it doesn't have to be lots of details.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, um well and I was just sharing because Greg and I have a connection. Um I was a uh about uh for about 10 years in the uh 19 about 1998 to about uh 2009 or so, I was uh early childhood and kindergarten teacher. And I was also in a uh a long-term relationship, and my partner David uh ended his life by suicide in 2009. Um and that uh I always thought I was gonna be a kindergarten teacher. What a great spot to be, right? Um working at that age, working with that age. And um, as grief does, it churned me up pretty big. And uh when it finally spit me out, I was actually I had moved across the country, I was living with my sister. The grief just kind of hit me so hard I didn't even know what to do with myself. So I'd left the classroom, moved in with my sister, helped it, was helping her raise her little boys. Uh, they were like three and five at the time, and I didn't know what I was gonna do. I I just felt I couldn't be in the classroom anymore and so on. So my own, my own story there, my own journey was that I decided I wanted to learn more about uh my partner's mental health. Um I wanted to learn more about suicide. I wanted to learn more about prevention, I wanted to learn more about grief. So I returned to college and for a couple of years worked toward a PhD in psychology that had a focus on suicide prevention, um, which then completely changed up my career. I was um going on, I was actually 40 years old or so when I did all this. So it was a big change that kind of late in life, but it was uh what I needed to do. I'm a I'm a I'm a I'm a learner and I needed to learn. And then once I started to gain some wisdom and understanding about it all, I needed to apply it. And so I went back into schools for a little while, uh, but decided I wanted to be kind of broader. And I so I started working for Samaritans, which is a Boston-based suicide prevention organization where I was in charge of education for a couple years. Um, and then I started doing peer support groups that in the with the same organization that Don does, uh, working with teens, working with uh young adults around grief and loss to suicide. And then on the side, I was I started volunteering an organization called Camp Keda, which is a free summer camp in Maine for kids between the ages of eight and 17 who've had a loss to suicide. And so I was doing that every summer, really filled uh that bucket, as you say, and the understanding of uh finding meaning and purpose, right? When you're working with an eight-year-old around their own grief, um, it really fills that, and there's also a lot of wisdom they can give you. Um, and then about three years ago, the organization grew to now we own 28 acres in Maine, and we have a whole facility where we're now uh called the KETA Center, and we still run our summer camp. We've expanded to do weekend retreats, which is what I was alluding to earlier, is what I have one this afternoon that starts at um that starts this afternoon with um for for 20-year-olds who have come in from across the country to be here this afternoon for the whole weekend until Sunday, Thursday to Sunday. Um so we do weekend retreats, and now I'm I'm actually a full-time employee with uh the KETA Center, uh, the director of postvention, which uh some people uh that listening may not know what that term is, but that is the kind of grief work after trauma and suicide loss. Um so I'm the director of postvention and I develop all the programming for the camp and for the retreats. And then right now, since we're still we're bigger than we were, but we're still small, I'm pretty much the facilitator for all those too. So uh that's uh that's my work. Um so it's a little bit um I hope that wasn't too long of a story. Oh, that's great. But that's a little bit of the uh over the last 17 years, that's been kind of my uh my storyline. Yeah. Just out of curiosity, where in Maine is a kita center? It's in a town called Acton, which is in um southern Maine. Um, if anyone knows the beach towns of Maine, I I actually live now in Kennebunk. Oh my gosh. So there's a series of beach towns, Gunkwit, Kennybunk, Kennebunk Port, right south of Portland. And if you're in those beach towns, with a lot of people do know, we are directly west, about 20 miles inland. So we're in the woods on this beautiful pond called Loon Pond, um, where uh I just love sitting here sometimes when it's quiet um and you can hear the loons calling.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

So it's kind of beautiful. Yeah, I've gone up to Maine the last two years. A buddy of mine uh is doing a two-year term up there as a president of a company. And um, I was uh staying at his house last year and the loons at night on the lake. I just couldn't believe the sound. I was like, it was so wild and eerie. But I I flew into Portland, went up to Bangor, and then all the way up to north uh west uh Maine. We took the Golden Road. I don't know if you've ever been on that. And I don't know how I made it without four flat tires, but uh it was quite the experience to say the least.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So it's quite gorgeous. I mean, Maine is uh it's kind of a hidden gem, you know, as as they say about certain places in the States. Um uh it's it's it's a little busy. The beach towns are a little busy right now, but even in the winter, it has its own uh kind of beauty, right? So it's a beautiful place, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I'm I feel fortunate because I'm gonna be up there in October. Uh I have a men's retreat that I'll be uh facilitating with Stephen. Um and uh super excited about that. Um I didn't get that right. We'll we'll have to send send it out to you. Um, you know, you you mentioned something uh late in life, you you had a career change and and uh I I it brought back to my memory at the age of 53, uh I was a food service um operations manager for a large contract uh food service company and changed to work for TAPS, tragedy assistance program for survivors and in grief. And um, you know, the that was a huge uh shift in career. Um but it's funny because I I feel as if there were lots of things I learned in the food service industry that I could bring with me uh and and service is really you know the big thing, like service to the people that that we uh connect with. And I know that you are really, really good about that, Stephen.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting because I I didn't like it wasn't with intent that I saw the um kind of those things coming together, like as an educator, who I was and what I've been trained to do, and things like uh helping, you know, um with little ones, helping them understand emotions and all those other things. All of a sudden I'm in this career where I'm helping young people and teens and so on. And at first I'm like, okay, this is a whole different field. I'm in suicide, post-vention grief work. I'm like, no, wait a minute. Almost everything that I was trained to do as a kindergarten teacher is it's kind of almost the same work. It just has a different kind of um complexity to it, maybe. Um I share this all the time, which is what I share this is what Don was um thinking is that you know, when I was teaching kindergartners I would and little ones, I would always want to create a really try to create a safe classroom, and we would talk about how to be kind to each other, how to ask great questions and get to know each other, how to know who the adults are in your world that you can trust, right? And so then I got into the prevention and post-vention, both sides of those prevention before loss and post-vention after loss, and I realized I was teaching the same skills at a different developmental level. And I'm like, wait a minute, these are like human skills, right? And so this education side of me has really enhanced in a way the work I do in the field I am now because I can see, especially when I'm working with kids or young adults, I can see I understand development as an example, child development. So I understand what's happening for them because I was trained in childhood development, and now I'm trained in grief. So now I can kind of bring those together and say, I understand childhood development and grief together, right? And there's a lot of pieces like that that I didn't see, I didn't intentionally like try to build, it just happened naturally based on who I was, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So yeah, you know, I I think it it it it it begs to elaborate a little more on the path forward. Um you had mentioned, Stephen, that uh we had a common connection, uh, that being that my wife also you know teaches kindergarten. And I think that um, you know, Don, you went through a job change. I went through a job change. I I was on the path uh to uh more senior management at a Fortune 500 company. I was an assistant vice president and they went through layoffs and um I got another job a month afterwards. But at that time that that happened, I was like, this is the end of the world. What do I do now? Because we put so much identity into what we're doing before trauma and loss. And it's like, okay, what is the path forward? I'm a planner. I like I'm I was talking to my wife about 2027 vacation plans yesterday because we just got back from 2026 vacation. And you can't do that in loss because you don't know the path forward. You have to just kind of feel in the dark, you know, you might have a candle in front of you, and that's it. You don't have a million candle power spotlight that's shining the path. And a lot of times you don't know, you know, where to go. Um, I remember seeing somebody who lost a loved one. And then, you know, they might go down this path of lobbying, you know, for Congress or for their state legislation, you know, for you know, against drunk driving or against putting a stoplight up in this, you know, part that there wasn't one, whatever it might be. And I never understood any of that. Um, and I think that the the part that is not understood by the average person out there is yes, that is done for the betterment of other people that come along, but it's what we need. It's what we do, it's the fulfillment that we get. And Stephen, I think that's kind of what I'm hearing from you too, even with Kita, is that this is something that was your path forward that you had to do to survive, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

For sure. And I, you know, there's a whole there's the language that or a word you used earlier was identity, right? And I think that that's something that is not kind of openly talked about that much in grief. Or like truly, let's do, I mean, I talk about it a lot because I knew that's what happened for me is my identity changed. I wasn't a kindergarten teacher anymore. I was not partnered with someone anymore. I moved, right? Because I I left my job. I left a my job I thought I'd always be in. And what I needed to do was understand and just kind of say my path forward is it it's kind of acknowledging that my identity changed and and then who am I now? Is a question I used to ask. I still ask that sometimes, right? And and then it's then it began to understand like what you bring with you and what you leave behind a bit too. Like, do I need to bring the intensity of those days after the loss or the anger? Do I need to always bring that forward with me? But what I I don't know as part of what you explore, right? But I know, but I know what I discovered, what I did want to bring forward is the entire um everything that my partner gave me, like the feelings of love and connection and so on. And also then I what I want to bring forward is my is my passion as a as an educator. And so the here I am, right? And that's what came forward at KEDA. And um, I'll speak for the from the eye, but you know, my partner is here, right? He's here at the Keda Center because I'm here, and I'm here because he died, right? And those are really hard things to say sometimes and for some people to understand, but there's just truth to it, and I have to acknowledge that. And my identity has changed quite a bit, right? I um and it all started by acknowledging that moving forward was um instead of getting mired in a lot of things, it was like, okay, so I'm no longer a kindergarten teacher, and now who am I now? Who do I want to be? And you're right about the there wasn't a spotlight to follow. It was kind of like weeding through the woods, right? Or and sometimes there are briars, you know, we could go through all of that, but every once in a while there was like a spark, and I'd be like, Oh, there it is, and kind of remember and going toward that spark, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

And you know, what you're what you've been doing is um honoring David and um, but you're doing it uh by carrying the like you said, the love, um, you know, the compassion, whatever it was that um you're carrying that forward and and spreading that, right? You're you're sharing that with the people that uh come in contact with you. And um, and that's what you know, I feel like Greg and I do as well. Uh that's what we hope that this uh podcast um does, that that people can gain um you know ways to to find ways to honor their loved one and and bring them with you, carry them with you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Um also say, Don, is that I I 100% agree with that, of course. And I think it's about honoring ourselves. Right, right. So it's like, you know, so I do this work because I, you know, it's not it, it it is I'm here because David died, right? And I'm also here because I love it.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Right. And I'm honoring my own journey and I'm honoring what I've learned. Um, it would be kind of to me, it'd be kind of wild to have gone back and got a PhD and done all this work to get focused and have all this wisdom and got all this training and credentials and everything else like that to be in a different profession now. I need to be in this profession because that's I I'm honoring myself and what I've learned and what and my own journey over the last 17 years, and I'm honoring my person, David. And um, that's just how I feel.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, no, that that's excellent. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

That's a good point to bring up because a lot of people think that, hey, it's okay, just back off from this. You know, it's you you've grieved long enough or mourn long enough. And it's like, no, no, this is this is something that I am doing not only to honor my loved one, but like you said, to honor ourselves and our path forward. And I get a lot of satisfaction out of this. Stephen, there was a comment you made, and I'm probably gonna botch um the words that you used on this, but I'm gonna try. Um, do I always need to bring forward and you said anger? I'm just gonna say every emotion. Um, that was something I kind of struggled with. Um, and I'm only five years out, but um it's interesting because I was counseled a lot by people just let your emotions uh be, let them come out, let them be the way that they need to be. Don't try to suppress them. And and I think that was wise uh in in the timing. And then there was a point of time where some things switched, and it was like, I don't like who I'm turning into. I don't like this wild willy-nilly stallion that's got a bug up its ass type you know thing, bucking Bronco nonstop, that there's no control. There's there's an essence of this that needs to break as far as breaking a horse type you know scenario. Um, so I I started reining in a lot of that. Whether it was just you know flying off the handle anger, whether it was um, you know, cussing too much, whatever it might be, um, I didn't give myself carte blanche like I did earlier on.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Um, what do you think about that? Because I think that that's something that should be talked about a little more, is that there are different stages and phases, is when we're looking at turning grief into growth, how can we put that into being more productive members of society?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, I love thank you for asking that because I think it's a really um it's we too you talk about this a lot in green. It's a complex and complicated question, but it's also really an important one because um that is a lot of language that's used a lot. You know, you let your emotions out. And I remember doing a very similar thing, and I'll just share a really, really, really quick fast story is that I but this is what broke me. It said, I can't do that anymore. I was on a walk, and I was so angry on this walk. And I don't, it was just anger. And this is, of course, after my loss. And I got to a corner, a stop sign, and you know how it like there's a walk, you know, crosswalk, and there's a car, and they're waving me to cross, like they want me to cross. And I started yelling at the driver, like seriously screaming at the driver, like, you don't tell me what to do. I'm like, and then the driver is looking at me like I'm crazy because I was, right? I was just so much. In my feeling that it was it was wild, right? And I didn't realize until he drove away and I stood there and I started to cry. And I'm like, what was that? I have never been so angry in my life at anything. And I was yelling at someone who's being kind to me. So I started to like really um say, wait a minute, just letting my feelings out might be too much. Just letting them flow might be too much. And I remember doing some work with my therapist, but also because I'm a learner and I'm a researcher, I went digging into it. And the next step is yes, let your feelings out, but it's about building a relationship with your feelings. So instead of just saying, okay, I'm I'm allowed to be angry because I've had this loss, yes, you are. It's a valid response to a loss, a traumatic loss, right? Instead of saying, like, I'm just allowed to be angry, it's more about when anger comes up, what is it telling me? What do I need? What kind of relationship can I build with this? So it actually is a helpful thing because anger doesn't have to be a destructive feeling. It's maybe telling you, I'm so angry right now, what is it telling me? Oh gosh. I maybe I need to talk to a friend. Maybe I need to reach out to someone, maybe I need to go exercise, maybe I need to go cry. Right? What is the relative?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

What is the relationship that I can build with any of these feelings, with confusion? You know, I'm so confused. I don't know why. I don't know why, I don't know why. Well, what is that feeling telling you? And so even the most challenging feelings, it's not easy, don't get me wrong, but I think you can start to build a relationship with those. Um, and they can actually be helpful um to our growth, right? And then so I I still have anger and I look at, I feel like I've built a relationship with it. And I have um, and I know when it's first I know when it's coming, where that whole thing incident with the car story I'm telling you, that came out of nowhere. But now, because I built a relationship with it, I'm like, wait a minute, when I feel it in my belly, when I feel my hands go like this, like crunch up, when I feel my face, oh, anger's coming. So now I have a relationship with what is so what is it telling me? What do I need to do? And maybe text a friend, right? I don't know what it might tell me because it's you have to like actually engage with it, right? So I do think that's a that's that's not easy. It's some of the work actually that we do at KEDA when we do at the KEDA Center, we have our week-long grief camp for little ones. And then this weekend we'll talk about emotions and we'll talk about building a relationship with your emotion, your biggest emotion. And we actually call it a field guide to a feeling, where we um explore it like you would explore if you're studying a loon or an owl or whatever else, like that. Like, what is its habitat? What is it, what is it, noises does it make? Where do you feel it? What does it look like? Right. And so really getting to know a feeling so you can build a relationship with it.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Um I've never heard a phrase that way, build a relationship with it. I I like that. That's yeah, it's not a foreign, you know, entity coming in.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

It's a it and I and it's a part of you, right? So that's why I'm like, build a relationship. It's not this outside creature that inhabits you, it's a piece of you. And even sometimes with little ones, I I will say, you know, when they say something like, I am angry, I will say, Well, you actually are not angry. You're your whole being isn't angry, it's not your identity, it's a feeling you're having. So I try to reframe that. It's not that I kind of like push too hard, but like, hey, let's talk about this a bit. You're feeling angry. And that angry feeling is a part of you, just like all your feelings. So you actually can build a relationship with it and figure and and figure some things out, right? You may need help. You may, and when we're really intense in a trauma, you need you might need therapy and all these other pieces. But to understand that it's not part of your identity, it's like you are not angry, right? You are feeling angry, and then you can get to a place. It's just just it's sometimes it's semantics, but sometimes it's also reframing and um and embracing that potential relationship. That even anger could be something that uh you could find and you might get so angry that you want to go back to school. You might get so angry, you want to go make a difference, right? And that's where uh making a relationship uh doesn't have to be uh making a relationship with an intense emotion like anger doesn't have to be a hindrance, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:29

This this is this discussion is so fascinating to me because I know that you know we're talking about younger people and and how you are helping them, uh but I'm uh still figuring this out. And and I'm sure you know, Greg, you too, and and and Stephen, I think you even alluded that it's not, you know, it's not something that you know we we know everything about it, but man, um getting in touch with your feelings, feel your feelings, recognize what they are, and and that that's what they are. They're only feelings, they're not who you are, they're not you know so gosh. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

I think I think until we take our last breath, wisdom would tell us that we're gonna still be continuing to figure it out for sure. For sure. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

That's why we were put on this earth in my mind, just to learn. The day we stop learning is the day we we uh you know our lives come to an end.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Man, that's some meaty stuff. It's powerful. It is. So, Steven, you are how many years out from your loss? Uh 17? Yeah, I'm 17.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And it I um 17 years. It was uh March 4th of 2009, and it is so can I share another thing about feelings because this is so interesting too that we'll be both you connect with. So on Monday, this just past Monday, I was is that whatever day the 21st was, Monday, I think it was. Anyway, so I was having a lot of emotions and I started thinking about, I was like, I couldn't focus. I was trying to get this retreat going, I couldn't focus. And I I started like, what am I feeling? Right. I really did say that to myself. I'm like, I'm just like overwhelmed. And why am I overwhelmed? I know what I'm doing, right? And I sat down and I said to myself, just that I'm just sharing this is exactly how I apply this work. And I said to myself, like, I don't know what to do with this. And I so I texted my friend, a very one of my best friends, and I said, I'm really overwhelmed today. I wonder what's going on. And he said, Do you know what today is? And I'm like, What? And he said, I just got a Facebook memory that you were in Seattle spreading David's ashes today, 17 years ago. And I went, whoa, okay, maybe somewhere here I was feeling that. And then I just said, you know what? Thank you for sharing that with me. And I when I got on Facebook later, I had the same memory because it was like, you know, you posted those things, right? And I just said to myself, you know what? I'm gonna go on a walk and just listen to some music and reset myself. And I just said, that's what that feel that feeling was, it was there for a reason. And when I found out the reason, it was like, oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Isn't that wild how the body does it?

SPEAKER_01 29:33

This is yeah, and this is the work, and I'm doing this work this week because of that. It was all connected. And if I would have kept pushing through, I might still be overwhelmed today because I couldn't identify why that feeling was rising up. So it's about building that relationship and saying and going, why? Okay, I'm feeling overwhelmed. What is that feeling trying to tell me? And what's trying to tell me is connect with your friend, look into your past, honor it, honor your journey, and move forward and do good work, right? Um, and I don't want to drum, I don't want to overemphasize it or or make that too dramatic. And I know that when I do that work like this, I I I'm a witness to it.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

So anyway, I just thought that's just what happened this week around it. Yeah, that's good stuff. I, you know, I was talking earlier about um change and not knowing the path forward. Um, I have made the comment that if possible that that my DNA could be changed, it did. Um, I've looked my best friends in the face and said that I'm not the same Greg Jacobs that you knew. And they looked at me like as an alien, and that's how I felt at the time. So um I do think there's a change along the way. Like I I um said earlier on, and some would argue that I am still early on and five years out. Um, I feel like I'm very in touch with my grief journey, uh, and I feel like I'm further along than I probably think I am sometimes. Um, but I uh have made the comment that I'm a better man and a worse man due to my son David's death. Um that was earlier on. There was a point in time, I don't know when it was, in year three, four, or where I'm at now, where that changed and morphed, where I very rarely say I'm a worse man than I was uh before, because I do feel like I am a better man in so many areas. Um if I was to say worse, it would probably be that my stress tolerance is a little less. Um, I don't like being in big crowds. Um, I don't have to be the center of attention or the extrovert in the room anymore. Uh there's just certain things, but I don't look at that anymore as a negative. I look at that as wisdom, I look at it as knowledge, I look at it as a positive that has just morphed inside of me. But folks, to our listeners, that only comes from putting the work in. Um, it does not come with time. Um, I'm here to tell you, it does not. Um, it it takes putting the work in.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Yeah, although it does take time to put the work in. Yeah, you can't have one. Like it's not gonna happen overnight. No. And and I know a few uh a few people that you know they're very early in their grief and and they're you know wanting to feel the way I feel, and I'm like, you know, it may happen, um, but uh, but you know, you have to put the work in and give it some time.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah. Um I hear you about the the work. And I I sometimes I had a um a young teenager that I was supporting, this is a couple years ago. I may have shared this with you, Don, before, um, in a peer support group, a teenager say, Why does it have to be work? Right. And I and I thought to myself, for a for weeks after that, I thought, why do we use the term grief work? Right. And because I was I was hearing this teen, right? And why do we call it grief work? Why is it, you know, is there another word for that? And after my own little reflection on it, I said, no, wait a minute, because it is work, right? And I don't think there's another any other word would actually lessen maybe the um what's needed, right? I think it is it when I say work, it's I don't and I don't think of work, I mean sometimes I think of work as draining and all these other pieces, but sometimes work is fulfilling. And sometimes work is um you grow in your work. Like, you know, even if you think about your job, you know, if you work really hard, you get there's you know a new role or a new opportunity, right? And so I think the I think when we say the word grief around grief, work, people think it's about um this thing that's gonna be uh just so hard and everything else. And yes, it is, and there's some fulfilling things that come along with it. So I think work is the right word. I've done, I still think about it once in a while like is work the right word for uh this grief, but I think it is, but I think it's also because I I also think a lot of people put a kind of negative connotation to the idea of work. Um, and so they go, I don't want to do that. But I'm like, gosh, but really good work fills you up, and really good work grows you, and really work, good work brings you wisdom. And um, and so yes, it's hard work, and uh it could beat you up a bit and make you exhausted and all those other pieces.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

And so anyway, I just yeah, and and look, good work could be making a cup of tea and having a scone and sitting in a quiet room by yourself meditating, or it could be in a peer group and you're having to open about up about the darkest secrets of what you're dealing with with suicidal ideations, whatever it might be. So the term work just varies so much, and it varies not only from person to person, but from day to day and minute to minute.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yes, for sure. And I I I I um again, this is another young that but it's interesting because these are the the the so far the the teens I've talked about are young men, right? Um, but another young man said to himself, he shared in group one time, this is like three weeks in a group, he says, I realize I can slow it all down, is what he said. And I said, What do you mean by that? And he said, Well, I kept telling myself before group, because I tell them I light a candle, and he says, I need to light a candle like Steven. And then he said, But I didn't have a candle. So he says, and then I realized I was gonna light a candle, but the only thing I had was matches in the house. So the next week I went to the store and got a candle. Um, and then it took him like three weeks to finally actually light the candle. And he said, in the group, he says, and I did it. But it didn't all have to happen. And it was, and for some people they might say, Well, why'd it take him three weeks? And for him, it's like that's exactly what he needed to do. And his work was to get to light a candle. So, like you're sharing it. It doesn't have to be um, you don't have to decide I'm gonna raise a million dollars for a suicide prevention organization or something like that. You can decide tomorrow, I'm gonna go on a, I'm gonna try to do a half-mile walk or I'm gonna light a candle, and that's enough. The work looks different for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

That's why we use the word journey. Exactly. That's how this podcast came about, folks.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, um, I I know it's time uh that we should be uh wrapping up. I hate to end this because and I Greg, I hope you agree with me. Steven's gonna uh we're gonna have to have him on again uh because we've just learned so much from you. Um I I think Greg, you wanted to read something, but um, Steven, while he's uh reading that, if you would uh think of a nugget that you would love to leave our listeners with, um, if that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Steven, I'll let you go first. What what would you say is just a pearl of great price nuggets summation?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

You've given you given as many already, but but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Well, and you know, and I I'll share this one that I and I'm only I'm only pausing because it it sounds a little cliche, um, but I do think um it's one of the most important things in grief, and that is that idea, not the idea, it's the truth, that you are not alone, right? And I think I just I I always want to I I just emphasize it all the time. You know, I have uh a group of 20-year-olds coming here later today, and they're coming from all over the country. 20-year-olds have committed to coming all over the country to do grief work.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

And I'm still amazed by that, right? I I I don't know if I what I I don't even know if I if I knew, you know, like how to get up in the morning when I was a 20-year-old. So um I had like, you know, my dad had to get me up, or my friends at school or whatever. But my point is is that they they're realizing that their need is I need to connect. And when we did a pre-survey, that's what all of them said. Why are you what is what is this desire to come to the Kita Center to do this work? I want to connect with others who have a common loss. And so that feeling can be the first step to all this other stuff we're talking about, to the journey, to say, I'm not alone, to to kind of admit that to yourself because you I know I felt so alone. I felt so alone for years, right? And that maybe not years, but for at least a good year. Like no one else has ever experienced what I experienced. And it wasn't until I started connecting with others that I felt like oh, like my shoulders dropped a bit. And you know, and these kids in in three weeks, we're gonna have eight eight-year-olds here, and they will say, I can talk about my brother here. We're like, you can, and their shoulders drop and their faces light up, and they like, can I tell you about my brother? Because I can't talk about him anywhere else. That you're not alone. It's about finding connection, and then I think that's the first step toward hope.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

So that's good. I there's three things I say to people all the time when I'm mentoring men, I say, I see you, I love you, and you're not alone. Because if you take the antithesis of all three of those, they feel the opposite. They feel unseen, they feel that nobody loves them and that they're all alone on an island under themselves, and that's not the truth.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

So and I think, and I know we're if we want to end, I just share real quick is that one of the weak pieces of work I did I've done for years, even as a teacher, is it's talking about dignity and about how every human being really strives for dignity. I want to be seen, heard, and valued, right? And it's also true in grief because not only do I want to all those things you just shared, Greg, I want to be seen, heard, and valued in my worst spot. Yeah, in my deepest grief. And that right there is what you all are providing in this podcast. Where I'm trying to do at Kita, right? Is in your worst spot, I still see you. Everything you just shared, Greg. Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

So not only when everything is tidied up. Exactly. So thank you for that. That's good. So I just wanted to kind of conclude this podcast. Um, since I was, golly, probably 14 years old, I've been reading a Christian devotional book. Um, it's called My Upmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers. Um, he died in 1917, uh ministering to uh the troops in World War I. I think he died over in Egypt, but he was a Scottish pastor. Anyway, all I'd say is I have been reading it um 52 years old, uh, majority of my life. And this morning I was reading it, and I thought, man, this is just really apropos uh to what we're talking about. And he uses the word sorrow, and I looked up sorrow in the dictionary, and it's uh different word we don't use as much anymore, but it says sorrow is an intense feeling of deep sadness, grief, or regret, typically caused by loss, disappointment, or suffering. Um, so in reading this, um, the title is Receiving Oneself in the Fires of Sorrow, and it quotes a Bible passage, John 12, 27 through 29. What shall I say? Father, save me from this hour, but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name. And the whole devotional goes into my attitude as a saint to sorrow and difficulty is not to ask that they may be prevented, but to ask that I may preserve the self God created me to be through every fire of sorrow. Our Lord received himself in the fire of sorrow. He was saved not from the hour, but out of the hour. We say that there ought to be no sorrow, but there is sorrow, and we have to receive ourselves in its fires. If we try and evade sorrow, refuse to lay our account with it, we are foolish. Sorrow is one of the biggest facts in life. It is no use saying sorrow ought not to be. Sin and sorrow and suffering are, and it is not for us to say that God has made a mistake in allowing them. Sorrow burns up a great amount of shallowness, but it does not always make a man better. Suffering either gives me myself or it destroys myself. You cannot receive yourself in success, you lose your head. You cannot receive yourself in monotony, you grouse. The way to find yourself is in the fires of sorrow. Why it should be so is another matter, but that that is uh but that it is is true in the scriptures and in human experience. You always know the man who has been through the fires of sorrow and received himself. You are certain you can go to him in trouble and find that he uh has ample leisure for you. If a man has not been through the fires of sorrow, he is apt to be contemptuous. He has no time for you. If you receive yourself in the fires of sorrow, God will make you nourishment for other people. And it concludes with that. I found that very insightful. God will make you nourishment for other people because that is how we pass it on. And then just a little other tidbit, um, it puts at the very end, it says the measure of the worth of our public activity for God is a private, profound communion we have with Him. We have to pitch our tents where we shall always have quiet times with God, however noisier our times with the world may be. And I was just thinking about that, Stephen, from what you said earlier about all just there's noise and clinging symbols and nonstop agenda items and things. We have to make time for ourselves. I mean, that is in the midst of the quandary of life and the busyness of life. Um, that is uh growth one-on-one. So, Stephen, Don and I cannot thank you enough uh for being on, taking your time in the midst of this busy uh schedule and season that you have today. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Thank you, Greg, thank you, Don.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

And good luck with good luck with your uh retreat.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Thanks a little bit. Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation. If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them. And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next. Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth. Until next time.