Episode #34-Mentorship

In this episode, Greg and Don discuss the importance of putting service above self. While not everyone is at a place in their grief journey where they are ready to mentor or support others, many eventually reach that point. Companioning—walking alongside someone in their grief—can be one of the most meaningful ways to serve, but it can also be emotionally demanding. That's why modeling healthy self-care is essential before trying to care for others.

The conversation explores how sharing your own story of loss can establish credibility and build trust at the beginning of a relationship. From there, Greg and Don discuss the importance of "priming the pump" by offering pieces of your own grief journey while intentionally shifting the focus to the other person. By asking thoughtful, open-ended questions and listening well, mentors create a safe space where those they are supporting can do most of the talking, share what is on their hearts, and process what they are experiencing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation. This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein. Well, good morning, Don. It's just you and I today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I'm doing pretty well, Greg. I I have no complaints. And uh, you know, the weather, I gotta talk about the weather because you know, everyone talks about the weather, right? They do. But um it's up north where I was living most of my life, uh, northeast. Um it's like getting into the hundreds. Um I'm down here in South Carolina, and uh I was looking at our weather for the next week, and it it's the low is 80, and the high is like 85, 87. And well, we're jealous of that. That's a nice ocean breeze. Um, took a walk around the the uh the island, and uh yeah, it's so I I'm really happy and grateful that we live where we do. So uh I guess gratitude is is what I'm talking about right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Absolutely. Well, I'm happy where I live as well. I just am not very happy this week with this weather. It's 94 today with a heat index of 105 here in Kentucky. And anybody that lives in Kentucky understands the worm swampy. The good old word swampy. It's like a Louisiana swamp. Uh, you just have that 96% humidity, and you walk outside after showering and you're soaked. Uh but hey, that's how it is. Well, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

No, we just um it it the humidity down here, uh yeah, we can feel it too, uh, but it actually feels kind of good. It's like uh for me, I I don't know. I I've just and we can have the air conditioning on, and I'm more comfortable being outside, uh honestly.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Uh that just I I read one time that you're not supposed to have your air conditioner 20 degrees less than outside temperature, otherwise you'll burn it out. So I've been leaving mine on like 75, and uh nobody's complained so far, but I don't want to really get that electric bill.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Well, uh today we decided, uh we did not have a guest, and uh we decided to talk about a specific topic. Uh, I think we were kind of giggling uh before we uh hit record on this podcast as far as whether we are ready or not for this. So uh for our listeners, everything that we talk about on here is organic. We don't have an outline, we don't have an agenda. Uh we just kind of talk from our hearts. And uh Don and I have both felt that that's kind of the best uh premise when it comes to uh us going back and forth on this. Obviously, different format when we have guests, we ask a lot of probing questions and follow-up questions. So today's topic is going to be on mentoring others in grief. Um, Don, what does that term mentoring mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So that's a good question. And I feel like mentoring is um walking beside somebody, um not uh leading uh or guiding them so much, um, but just meeting them where they are, and uh you know, Dr. Wellfeld uses the term companion, and and I feel like that is more appropriate, although um you know if if uh if you were to say to somebody grieving, hey, I wanna I want to be your companion, um they might be they might look at you cross-eyed and say, What are you talking about? Um so mentoring, you know, probably and actually some people do that when you say you want to mentor them, right? Or um so uh but uh you know companioning is just meeting people where they are and not uh feeling responsible for trying to uh I mean, because this isn't something that can be fixed, like so you're not responsible for fixing them, you're just um you're there to to um be there and allow them to grieve and allow them to find their way through uh their grief journey.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah, you're there to show up. I mean, that's that's that's the number one thing is you're showing up and being present. I call it the gift of presence. Um when I think about the term companioning, mentorship, um, it is it can be an offsetting weird terminology for some people. So you kind of have to feel out and know your audience. Um, we use the term mentorship a lot of times with teenagers uh or middle schoolers coming up and uh hey, they need a mentor or a big brother, big sister program or something. And it's hard to use that sometimes with 40, 50, 60 year olds where maybe they uh think, hey, I've I've been successful in life. I don't need a mentor, uh, but then they have no idea what's coming or where they're standing at that present moment. So I like to use word analogies. I like to think of the mother hen with her wings outspread in a thunderstorm, and the hens are underneath them or underneath her wings. Um, so a lot of times when you think about it that way, it's like the mother hen knows what's coming, but yet she also takes the brunt of a lot of it and she also leads by example. We've heard the saying uh uh do as I say, not as I do. Uh that does not apply to mentoring. It's quite the opposite. We're saying, do as I say and as I do. We're gonna model this for you. And this is us a little further down the road than you are at this point. Not that we have it all figured out, but we're willing to come alongside you and show you what has worked for us, what hasn't worked. And guess what? What's worked for us might not work for you, and vice versa. So it is definitely not one of those things where you say, okay, uh, John Doe or Sally, here is uh what you need to do. Uh, you have got to go down to the cemetery, you got to break through that threshold, you got to break through any hindrances. Um, you have got to cut off these caustic family relationships that are saying, hey, you just got to get over it. All this stuff is so unique per situation and uh circumstance. Um, Don, I thought what we'd do is just kind of go from the beginning and start with you enter into a mentoring relationship. How do you even enter into that? So there's some organizations that'll pair you up. Like I have had uh TAPS Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors has paired me up with six uh different mentees individually over the past five years. Um, I have one person active that others have kind of rolled off, but I'm still there for them. And the way that I really start my relationship is you know, hey, here's my name, here's my story, here's what I'm about. And I call it greasing the skids because you want to be able to add street cred to the relationship right off the bat, versus who is this Yahoo, Greg Jacobs? I've never heard of him, I don't know who he is. And, you know, is he a psychologist? Is he a counselor? Why is he here? And whenever I say, hey, I have lost a son in an auto accident, and I am five and a half years down the road, and and uh I would love to come alongside you. This is me throwing you a life preserver. Um, that's where it starts. What what do you think to that?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Well, and and there's a lot of truth to the fact that you need to have um a connection with this person, and that that's the um, you know, they've got to build some trust in you. Um, and when they recognize that uh that you have been where they are, um, that helps a lot. Uh that doesn't mean that you can't help people um when you haven't been where they are, but uh there's no question that's the peer the peer model, right? Um and uh when we talk about peer support, um and that's you know, you mentioned um that you got you get matched, I I find that uh oftentimes it it's more of a natural um connection that that develops when and you've been to retreats uh where you have connected with certain people that um you know that have been there for that that just because there is something that that they experienced that um that you are experiencing. And you know, it's like wow, uh this person understands where I've where I am now. They've been there and I can I I feel hopeful that maybe I can get through this too. Um I know that for me that was like the very first um experience for me was when I I knew that this person that I was sitting next to um had lost uh his son to suicide. And he's getting through it. And I'm like, okay, there's hope.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I can do this. And that's really what you're presenting a lot is hope. You're you're trying to say, hey, there's hope for the future. Here's a life preserver, grab on, let me show you how to navigate these waters. Uh, we've had Dr. Frank Campbell on uh twice, and he's talked about the canyon of why and the choices that you make. You can either go to the right, you know, towards hope and towards growth, or you can go to the left towards despair and towards substance abuse or different things to mask your grief. Um one of the things that I've realized, you you talk about establishing connection. So we talked about the street crit aspect of establishing first off, because I've I've never met in person uh but one of those six mentors, uh, or mentees rather. Um, so I can establish a connection over the phone um just as easily. It's it's not quite the same as you know, person to person and you know, physically. Um, but uh greasing those skids and and really establishing, okay, we have this commonality. Now, where do you go from there? And I should say, folks, for our listeners, uh Don unofficially mentored me. And we never had the title, never had uh the officiality of it. Is officiality a word? I think it is now. I'm gonna use it. It is now. Yes, I just made it. It's in the new Greg Jacobs dictionary. Um, but it basically uh was very unofficial where he would take my calls, we'd listen. I said, Man, Don, you have just mentored me so much. And you made a comment to me, you're like, Greg, you have mentored me uh just as much and poured into me. So I think it's important to kind of call out that relationship in the aspect of why do we do this? Why do we mentor others? Um, and I think it really it's one, we want to give back to our fellow man. Uh, but two, it really helps us along on our journey.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Absolutely. No question about it. There's um uh when we are uh serving others um in any capacity, uh we feel better about ourselves. Yeah. And uh this is you know pretty much the ultimate service. Um but uh I wanna I wanna make sure that that we are cautious to mention that you know as much as the the good uh feelings that we get from pouring into other people, um the we have to be cautious and make sure that we take care of ourselves as we do that so that we continue to have enough to pour into other people. Because if we drain ourselves of that, we're screwed.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Well, you can't see it, but I actually wrote it on my list. I wrote boundaries. So I think that if you open up um the you know the the floodgates of mentorship, um it's very easy for a mentee to take advantage of your time and suck the living life out of you if you don't put parameters.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Not intentionally, it's not something they they don't, you know, they're they're grieving. They're just in they're in a lot of pain and they're suffering. Um so it yeah, it's important that we as mentors uh recognize that you know that's that's what they are are doing, they're grieving. We can't take that pain away from them that's right as much as we may want to. Um, we can't. And they have to experience it, they have to feel it, and they will eventually find their way out of it just like we did, because we were in a lot of pain too.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I didn't always have my worst uh moments uh eight to five. Um, sometimes it was at midnight uh type thing. But I will say that uh there is a lot you have to walk through on your own during those times. I'll tell my mentees I try to do the majority of my work between eight and five, and I try to reserve the rest of the time for my family and for sleep. If for some reason you are absolutely at your worst case and it's the middle of the night, then call me. Um can't guarantee I'll answer. Uh nine times out of ten, I'll hear the phone ringing with my CPAP on. But um, but I I do think that setting boundaries are important and um and carving out certain special time that you can. There's gonna always be those crisis impromptu type moments where somebody just has to talk to you, um, but try to walk them through those less and less uh as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

But you know, you know, Greg, I I wanna um I just want to underscore it's not just about the the boundaries. Um when we're pouring our heart into someone, yeah. Um as much as it uh helps us, okay, it also can be draining. Yes. Um and to to listen to somebody's story, yeah, it can be draining. Um and triggering so yeah, and I know for me, especially early on in my mentorship um apprenticeship, whatever you want to call it, um companionship, early on, I needed to process through. So I would call somebody who was further out and and you know, say, hey, I just had this call and and I just need to talk through it with you. And um, and that really helped a lot to you know uh let that out. But the just self-care piece, uh constantly um I I tried for years and years and years to meditate and I was unsuccessful. And uh I don't think it was until after um I you know started doing this work that I learned truly how to meditate and I learned how important it was because when I stopped, when I if I wasn't doing it for a little while, I could feel the effects. I I wasn't the best version of myself to be able to be there for my mentees or the people that I was companioning.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah. I would say that as you are um progressing with a mentee, somebody that you're coming alongside, um the biggest part of it is um priming the pump uh right at the beginning. And priming the pump is asking open-ended questions. So, Don, for example, if I was asking you, are you sleeping at night? You would answer me either either yes or no, or I don't know. Uh, it's one of those three. Uh, versus if I said, Don, tell me about your sleeping habits. You know, what does that look like for you? And then they would say, you know, I'll be honest with you, I wake up every night about 3 a.m. in the morning and I can't go back to sleep, and I've got insomnia, and I look at Google photos, and I go down this rabbit hole. And then it just it really just allows them to start talking and having conversations. Sometimes you have to say, and prime the pump. I priming the pump is an old term I've adopted. You go out on a farm and they've got a uh a pump there, and a lot of times uh a water pump out in the yard, and a lot of times, unless you pour water down that hole and and prime it, it's not gonna have the suction be able to, you know, uh to put forth uh well watered. So a lot of times you have to pour that water down the hole, and you have to say, uh, I want to talk about your sleeping habits. Let me share with you what I have encountered and gone through. Uh earlier on, I was really struggling with sleeping. Um, you know, now I I take L-theanine and ashwagonda before I go to bed, and it's all natural herbs, you know, supplements has really helped me a lot. But more than that, I just kind of decompress uh before I go to bed. And uh so when you start priming the pump, you don't want to make it all about yourself, but you want to add that street crate in there again, like I get it, I know. And I did that recently with my newest mentee, and he said, Greg, I hate to tell you this, but I have no problem sleeping. And I was like, perfect. We're gonna mark that off the list and we're gonna move on. And I'm not gonna come back to it unless you have problems with it. Um, because it's not something that I struggled with it. He doesn't. So I don't have to impose myself and my problems on him. That's not what he's struggling with. So you always want to be very careful that you're not trying to, no, no, no, no, you're gonna struggle. It's gonna come eventually. You want to make sure that you're only focusing on their issues at that time, and it might be totally different, something you've never encountered or gone through yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah. I think um, you know, when I think about uh supporting others, um, you know, you mentioned sleep, uh, but it's just as important to to, you know, what are they putting in their body? Yeah. Um and what you know, what kind of uh exercise, if any, uh they're getting. Um and some some people may be, you know, it's hard for them to get out of bed, right? Uh they just lost somebody they care deeply about. Um and uh and you know, but at that point in time, that might be the best thing for them. Um to you know get some rest and and uh rejuvenate. Um but uh uh you know, so it each person is different and it's gonna be different at different times, uh different points in their grief. Um so um you know sleep, uh it it could be somebody gets way too much sleep. Uh but that's not uh that's you know, but that's not for us to judge. And that's one thing that um you know that we aren't here to judge them at all. Um you know, whatever they're doing um at that point in time, it's probably what they need to do. And if we can figure out a way to steer them toward a more sustainable um path of of healing, um if you know if what they're doing may not be very sustainable, um then that's you know that's good on us if we can. Um but again as a as somebody who's been caring for and and companioning and and mentoring for at least thirteen to maybe even fourteen years now. Um it's that self care piece that we have to take care of ourselves. Um

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

And and model that, right? We're we're role models.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So yeah, it's not and the way I model it, Don, a lot of times is um, it's not a bragging thing, but a lot of times I'll I'll screenshot my Samsung health that says how many steps I got in today or uh walking, and I'll I'll just send a screenshot to my mentee and I'll be like, hey man, had a great walk today at the cemetery. Um and what it does is it kind of sparks something inside them like, I need to get out and move. I need to do something. And you don't have to say, hey, have you walked today or how's your exercise coming? You lead by example. I I wanted to talk about the in-between. So a lot of times in the mentor relationship, you might have you know set times and schedules where you're having coffee or you're you know making a phone call or a Zoom call, whatever it might be. Uh it's in-between times that matter more, I believe. And what I mean by that, like today, for example, uh, a guy that I'm mentoring, um, he's a pastor. He lost his son Isaac in a drowning accident um uh two years ago. And he is coming up on uh today is his birthday, the son's birthday. And then I think next week is the anniversary date of his passing. Um, so we're having coffee next Wednesday. Uh, but what I would say is it was so important for me to acknowledge um uh Isaac's birthday. So I immediately sent him a text this morning. And this is something you have to be careful and cautious about too, and pick your words. I never say happy birthday because it's not a happy occasion for them a lot of times. So, what I start off with is hey, brother, I just want you to know I'm acknowledging that today was Isaac's birthday. I'm thinking about you guys, you're in my prayers. Uh, if there's anything I could do, I'm here for you. Um, it means the world. So take notes as people were talking to you, take notes on special occasions, certain dates. If they say, hey, I'm meeting, you know, with you know at the governor's mansion, such and such, put it on your calendar and follow up, say, hey, how was that you know dinner that you had out there uh with other you know, parents, whatever it might be. Um, the birth date and the anniversary of their death, it seems to be the two major uh dates that you could put on their calendar and follow up because it will automatically solidify and add street cred to any relationship with that. So think about the in-between as well, and things that you could do and just do life with them. A lot of times I'll send a picture of me just out with my wife and we're walking out of park, and I'm like, hey man, hope you're getting out today. It's a beautiful day. You know, Amy and I are walking out of park, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

You know, uh you brought up the birthday thing, and and uh I see oftentimes people uh will post on Facebook uh you know, it's their loved ones' birthday, um, and they miss them. And uh so then people will post happy heavenly birthday, you know. Um what I have learned to do um is to adopt the language that um that the griever is using. And if they say, you know, um happy heavenly birthday to my uh you know my person, whoever that is, um I I will you know say that back. Um as long as they're using that language, um, then I I wanna, you know, I want to meet them where they are. Uh so their language becomes my language. That's right. Um and and if there's some language that needs to, you know, that could change um slowly but surely you you you might introduce that. And when I'm what I'm referring to is um negative, I I uh I I've learned to um keep my words as positive as I possibly can. Um so that uh the the negative pieces just fall away. And when you hear a lot of negative talk, um I might introduce that same thought, but in a positive way. Um and I'm trying to think of a for instance.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

You know, like for example, earlier on, whenever I was talking about Josh committing suicide, and you're like, well, you know, Greg, I just wanted to lovingly just share with you in in our community, we don't use the word, you know, committed, we use died by suicide. And I I didn't fully understand uh that at the time, but I was like, you know what, it doesn't take much work for me to change one word if for some reason it might offend somebody as an act of you know sin or aggression or something that they deliberately thought about. A lot of times we're we're talking about mental health and illness and different things. So there are things that we do, uh, like for example, when you're talking about the birthday, forever 21. There's a lot of people that will pose forever 21 if their loved one died at 21 years old. I don't. I never have. It is not my shtick, it's not something that I look at. David died when he was 21, um, but I look at him as 27 years old. That's how old he would have been today. And why do I do that? I do that because I keep him alive in my heart, in my mind. And I also do it because I have two other living children, and David will always be my firstborn. He will always be the oldest. And in my mind, he's 27, Nathan's getting ready to turn 26, and Hannah's getting ready to turn 23. So it's for me, it's it's always that sequential aspect. Now, that I'm not gonna impose on somebody else. That's that's what I believe. Um, and that's how I cope. So exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I'm I'm the same, and you're you're absolutely right. Uh, so that's uh pretty much what I'm talking about with adapting to you know what they what they use. Um but uh yeah, I mean Josh he died at 23, but he's he's 49.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Or thir 39. What am I talking about?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

49. I was gonna say, I mean, you are old. I'm really old. So the last uh last thing as we kind of bring this to a close is uh don't take offense. Um a lot of times if you try to develop uh a mentor relationship with somebody and they ghost you, um, they don't talk uh to you. Um you know, they have a reason, they have a timeline. I have a second cousin. Uh I don't know if he listens to these podcasts or not, but I have a second cousin who basically lived uh, I don't know, an hour down the road and uh lost his daughter in a car accident. I've never met this second cousin. And uh I reached out to him on Facebook and um he says some kind words back to me. But I've been inviting him to my Your Dad Forever monthly call that I do for, I don't know, a year and a half and with no response. And then all of a sudden last month he popped on the call and he's like, you know something? I retired. We moved out of state. I've had a lot going on, but I want you to know I really appreciate those invites, and here I am. And he had more to say on that call than anybody. He was just waiting, you know, bursting open to talk. And and I it was a real uh testament to me to understand one, don't give up unless somebody says, hey, remove me from your list. Um, just just keep priming the pump, keep talking. You never know when they're going to need that uh, whether it's a peer group, whether it's a one-on-one, whether it's just like, hey, can we just do a one-time coffee? Um, but don't take offense because it's easy for us to take offense, like, yeah, it's rude. He never responds to me, she never responds to me, whatever it might be. Um, understand that uh patience is required and loving is not always uh reciprocated.

unknown 30:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I often uh send texts and uh sometimes emails to people, and uh I don't ask them questions, I just let them know that I'm thinking of them, and I don't expect any kind of reply. Um and there have been people that you know I was doing that with and hadn't met physically um you know for five years or so, and and uh then they're I'm in the room with somebody uh and uh with a bunch of people and they're like are you Don Lipstein? And I'm like, Yeah. And they're like, You saved my life. And I'm like, Who are you? And they tell me and and I was like, We we haven't spoken. And yes, but I got your text, I got your emails, and um and so just know that and like you said, you may feel like you're being ghosted, um, but oftentimes they just don't know how to respond. Um, but just knowing that you know you care um can mean all the world to them, uh, every every bit.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

We were at our 30th College reunion at Asbury this last weekend. We were having just kind of a sharing session in a circle. There's about 30 of us that showed up, and um, there's a guy next to me who I've known for 34 years, obviously, from the beginning of college. And um he said, You know something? Uh his son's in prison now, serving some time. He's just really kind of had a hard time, recently got released from a job. And um, he said, Greg Jacobs called me and he said, I was just going on, on, on. And and he said, I remember Greg just saying, stop. This is not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. And he just poured into me and he was sharing this with the group, and I'm like, I don't even remember that conversation. Um, so I I would just say, show up, be there, know that you're planting seeds along the way. Every once in a while, you get to reap the rewards and harvest uh from that, but uh not always, and uh, and that's okay. We get little tidbits of encouragement along the way that keep us going. So Don, do you have any final words?

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Just uh I think when we open our hearts to others, um when we are vulnerable and authentic, uh it gives them permission to uh to be the same. And I um I encourage uh you to uh everyone to just be that for people and and be able to be there as they are vulnerable. You know, um people cry when when they're grieving, uh and we don't have to hand them a tissue. Um you know, handing them a tissue can sometimes turn that turn turn the like it's almost like a message like you know, you better stop crying. Well, let them cry. So um I think it's important that we just be authentic and real with people and um yeah, and love and open our hearts.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

That's so that's wise words. Uh in conclusion, uh, in the words of the Rotarians, service above self and understand that we all need to be mentored ourselves, and it's going to be a point in time, maybe uh down the road, that you can mentor somebody else. Uh, but make sure that you're prepared, make sure that you're ready, and don't force a fit um because you have to be ready for that. So great conversation, Don. Uh until next time. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation. If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them. And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next. Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth. Until next time.