The 18 Minutes
18 minutes was all I needed to start reclaiming my life from fear. The aim of this resource is to help you move from fear to freedom, too, and to discover your true identity without the burden of constant worry. My hope in sharing my story (and the practices I learned along the way) is to grow a community that helps each of us step into the world with more courage, more clarity, and more authenticity, becoming the kind of presence that inspires growth in others, too.
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The 18 Minutes
Maintaining Anxiety Progress with Marc Musselman
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Episode #2 with my dad! In episode 42, I sat down with my dad and we had a fun conversation about his recent anxiety wins, and what he did to get there. We also talk about maintaining the progress we've already made, and how to live healthy, full lives during and after recovery. Enjoy!
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Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks for coming. The first thing I wanted to ask you about. So we uh had a reclaim group recently and we talked a lot about the fear of flying. Oh, yeah. Because that's a big hurdle for a lot of people, and for you and I has been a big hurdle historically. And one of my goals for a while has been to uh take a take an airplane by myself, which is something I've never done, and it just didn't cross my mind because I worked through a lot of anxiety and then was like, oh, I can go on airplanes now. Check that off the list basically. Um, and then yeah, at one point I was like, okay, what's my next big fear to like work up to and flying on a plane by myself is one of them. And then you texted me a couple weeks ago, uh selfie on a plane by yourself. So I just wanted you to talk about like how that experience was for you, like what you did leading up to it, if anything, and the difference between like even if you were nervous at all during the trip, like the difference between having disordered fear and anxiety, and maybe like nervousness and anxiousness on the other side of like recovering from it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, I guess we gotta go back in the past a little bit on this, but at that moment, like even when I text you, I think I text you because I was like, this is surreal for me that I am sitting on this plane by myself like I used to do all the time. Many years ago, like I flew all the time everywhere, even around the world before work. And and even looking back to my early days of doing that, I remember being nervous. I I remember I don't know, just being nervous about it, but never having a panic attack or anything like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then I remember having to fly and having panic attacks while flying. But it didn't stop me from flying. It just was like I'm having a panic attack and I don't like it, but well I don't even know that I knew what it was, or you know, I mean I knew that I was having something that didn't feel good, but but I still flew and and then it got to the point where Like you were having panic attacks while you were flying, but just like pushed through it?
SPEAKER_03Like you just didn't know what was happening.
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah, I mean Yeah. I mean, and I think uh yeah I probably there was a time even that yeah, I didn't know what a panic attack was. I just I don't know, I was like so nervous I feel like whatever I'm having. And then of course then you you know, through whatever you learn that they're panic attacks or whatever all the things. But yep, I remember I would get on the plane and think, okay, well, I'm gonna have a panic attack until like it takes off, and then for some reason my brain calms down and says, Well, this is where we are, so and then everything was fine.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, and then everything was fine, and then the rest of the trip I was fine. To the point where I was you know flying somewhere to do something, and I couldn't get on the plane. I mean it got so bad that the panic attack was it was terrible and r unrelenting.
SPEAKER_03When was that? Like the first time that happened.
SPEAKER_05Maybe maybe six years ago. Oh really? Seven years ago?
SPEAKER_03Okay, like you were at the gate and you were like, I'm not doing this.
SPEAKER_05I was in the yeah, I was at the airport and I was with mom. So I mean, like, I even had someone there with me, and we were flying to somewhere to to uh do an Alclaire show. Like a pop-up thing. So not a trade show, but and shout out Alclair audio. Shout out, yeah, shameless plug.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and I remember being there thinking, yeah, I'm nervous. And I even remember this was after I had got some drugs. Oh, and I had them, but then I had a anxiety about taking the anxiety meds.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I've talked about that a lot too.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I didn't want to take the meds because I didn't want that to happen. But then I wanted the anxiety to go away and that wouldn't happen. And it got to the point, like I was in my brain, it was like, don't get on this plane.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like you didn't really have an option then.
SPEAKER_05Nope. And I just sort of I think I talked myself right into not getting on the plane. I literally had to go up then and tell the person at the I'm leaving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Were they weird about it?
SPEAKER_05They were kind of weird about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because that I had the same experience one time, and Tom was with me and we didn't get on the plane. And I've told I've talked about it a lot on this podcast and other things, but um Tom went up to the gate agent because they kept calling our names over and over again. I was like, every time they say my name over this speaker, they're like looking for us. I was like, just more and more sure I'm not doing it. I don't know why that was such like a trigger for me, but I was like, I'm not going. And then he went up and I was watching him go up and tell them, like, we're not leaving. And the gate agent was like, You're you're not you're not getting on the flight. And I was like, oh no, it's like my nightmare. Like, I just thought, like, surely this happens. Like people get sick or whatever. Yeah, and he was just like shocked by it. I was like, oh no, I feel so much worse.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. No, I I it's like almost like she wanted to talk me out of it or something. And I just told her I was unwell. I didn't tell her what was going on. I just said, Yeah, I don't feel good, and I'm just we're not gonna take this flight. Yeah, and she was like, Like, come on, just take the flight, or you know, like whatever. And I was like, I'm just I'm just telling you this so that if there's somebody else that needs the flight worse than us, then you can give it to them because I'm not gonna get away from it.
SPEAKER_03It's like and she's there's no convincing me at this point.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I was already mentally in the car on the way home, yeah. And uh, yeah, she was like, Well, okay, I guess, or whatever. And I was like, All right, see you later.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And we didn't have any check bags or anything, so I just we just rolled our little bags right on out of the airport and right back into the car.
SPEAKER_03That would have been a mess.
SPEAKER_05Went back to the uh yeah, the puppy daycare and picked up my dogs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Which they were happy about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Did you feel better like immediately? Oh yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Makes sense.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. At least by the time I got home, I was all kind of calmed down from the whole thing. And that was it. And that um and then that's stuck in my head, of course, to the point where if anybody said like, oh, we should go somewhere, instantly I was like, oh my gosh. I don't care if it's it's six months from now or whatever. Like I've already started the the mental thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so yeah, started traveling the country by vehicle and camper and did that for a long time. It ended up being a a great thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you had a lot of fun doing that.
SPEAKER_05Had a lot of fun, learned a whole thing, um, got a whole vibe going about it, and still love it and still do it. But I always knew that eventually I can't drive to Europe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I gotta I gotta get back on a plane amongst all the other things that you gotta do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, so then that began the journey of like I need to change things in my life. I need to change I you know, I had a vision at some point of like this is the man I wanna be or the person I wanna be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I want to do these things, I want to, you know, I want to look like this to other people, even from just a positive thing, not just a you know, prideful thing, but like this is who I want people to see, yeah, and be a person of character in that way. Like, I am who you see me being, and I'm doing these things.
SPEAKER_03I really like that. We talk a lot about that in the reclaim groups, like values-based decisions instead of fear-based. So we so much of what we talk about is like envision who you want yourself to be, like what's the person you like want to be, because you can be that person. You can be that person, and you can like gradually work up to it. You don't have to be that person tomorrow when you wake up, but and you and you you will not be. Yeah, you can't you can't be.
SPEAKER_05You cannot be. Yeah, that's true, but you can be over time, yeah. 100%. Yeah. I'm still shocked by it.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. I think there's well, I know there are, I don't know what they are, but there are specific therapies too. Like, um, I think act or ACT therapy is a lot of like values-based. It's like what do I value and then act on my values, not my fear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, which is just such a huge motivator when it's like, this is the kind like you said, like this is the kind of man I'm I want to be. Like that's really a big deal. And then to start behaving that way instead of just like hoping you wake up one day being that person, it's not gonna happen. You have to actually like make these small changes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and everything in life is like that. I don't know that I can think of anything that is worthwhile that isn't like that really. Like, let's say you want to run marathons, like you can't just decide I'm a marathon runner, wake up the next day, and I mean I can't couldn't run to the couch, right? You know, it's like but then after a while, you can.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it's crazy. And like for people that do that or anything else, you look back and you like, I can't even remember the the person who couldn't go for a walk around the block, and now here I'm running, or whatever. And so that's the same thing with this anxiety and everything else when it comes to your work or your life or your health or whatever. It's like I want to be a healthy person. And one of the things in my mind was I want my body to do what my mind tells it to do. I no longer want a body that doesn't do what I want to do when I want to do it. Like I just want and that could mean you know, mentally or physically, right? Like if I want to go on a trip with my family on a plane, I want to just book the ticket and go. I don't want to have all of this stuff in the way.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05So it's not just always physical health, it's mental and physical health and all that. So I wanted it to respond in the way that I wanted it to, because this is the person and these are the things that I value and I want to do, and this is how I want to live my life, and these are the things that I enjoy. So how do you get there? And then you start the baby steps, and then you start the exposure to doing those things, just no different than the exposure to running or bicycling or whatever. Like you just start, yeah, and it hurts. And it hurts mentally when you've been like we have like the whole agoraphobia and stuff places and all the fo all the phobias that we've gone through. Yeah, it's like I can't even imagine like getting out of this prison. And then pretty soon you like I can't believe that I'm out of this prison, you know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_05And like, and that was for me, you know, then fast forward to that flight. So I mean, we had taken a flight earlier this year, mm-hmm, which was my first one in a long time on a family vacation. So I have my family with me, which was great. Yeah, that's that's but I had but still I had done all the work to that point where when I was there, I was like, this is no big deal. Like I didn't feel really any anxiousness or how on that flight a few months ago?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a few months ago.
SPEAKER_05I mean, maybe I was nervous, but it was simply because I hadn't been on one in a while, or I didn't I think more than nervous is, and I think you've said this too, it's like I'm nervous about what is my body gonna do because I'm not feeling anxious, and I'm not feeling nervous, and I'm not used to feeling that way. I'm used to having to deal with the anxiousness and the nervousness. I'm not used to just walking on an airplane and sitting down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03What did you do if you did anything like leading up to that flight? Because you hadn't flown in like six years, and then we flew in March, and like even besides, you know, because people ask me a lot, like, how do I prepare to get on a flight? And I think people assume it's like because they're like, I can't just like go to the airport. The airport's three hours away from me, like I can't just be driving to the airport every day, but there's so many things completely out of that context you can do to prepare for something like that. Yeah, you know, so I'm curious, like, what are what were things you had done even for in like that six years, like to just like kind of work and you don't have to explain your whole thing, but just kind of leading up to it.
SPEAKER_05Well, I think everything that we do that you teach and that we've done, both of us, are the things that you you know, all the things that you do, exposure and and taking better care of yourself health-wise and mental-wise, and and um uh you know, big ones for me were like being present and not not ruminating on the future, not ruminating on the past, being very pre you know, a lot of that, yeah, I mean that philosophy of things. So I think all of the the things that I did, which I'm actually trying to catalog of all the things that I did, so I at least I have a medical kit of if it happens again I can go back.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05But I think a lot of it was um you know daily care. I get up in the morning, I read scripture, I read um the you know, wisdom literatures, I read, you know, the ancient stuff, Marcus Aurelius and all of that stoic stuff. All you know, because it's all good positive things that set you up for you know, they it a it teaches you here's what life's about, so don't stress about you can't stress about things that are true, and don't make up things that aren't true. And so I think those things were very instrumental, but I also think just the simple act of doing it, the act of getting up every day, having a cup of coffee, and reading, not not being on my phone, not just thinking about the day, but just having that time, walking every day, um, and just taking care of myself and pushing into the things that I feared. And then when I got into the things that I feared, I just lived you know, lived through it. Mm-hmm. To teach my body that like you're gonna live through it and it's fine.
SPEAKER_03That's a good way to say that. I don't usually use that like living through it, like yeah, fully have like having a full experience is like more of like how I talk about it. But yeah, it's just like actually live through it, don't like try to close your eyes and avoid it experience it like it's the experience of now, like this is like you and I are here now.
SPEAKER_05There is no future, there is no but that whole thing, there is no past, there is just now, and so enjoy this moment and be only in this moment wherever you are anytime and try and fully live in it.
SPEAKER_03Even if it is bad, even if it's bad, even if it feels bad.
SPEAKER_05And it's like I was saying, those things that you know, like that you learn in a lot of that teaching is that it's gonna be bad sometimes, and so don't kid yourself about that. Because I think that is a big trap for the whole anxiety thing, is like I don't want to feel pain and I don't want to be uncomfortable, so I'm just gonna stay in my chair at home and watch my TV or look at the internet because right now I'm not feeling any pain and I'm not feeling anxious, so this is what I'm gonna do. In reality, that is prison, that's what I learned. Like, you've just put yourself in prison instead of somebody putting you in prison because that's not who you want to be or where you want to be, but it is where comfort is, and then you learn that adage like you know, comfort is a slow death. Everything you do that's comfortable is probably limiting you in some way, no matter if you want to move forward in life, you're gonna feel something, you're gonna feel hurt, your muscles are gonna hurt, or your mind is gonna hurt, or your feelings are gonna get hurt, or you're gonna have to talk to people about difficult things. And uh and you're gonna have to go through difficult things, and so you can't kid yourself that that's staying at home in your chair doing that is kidding yourself that you're gonna get away from all that because it's not true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So just go and experience it. And and I think then when you having some kind of an anxiety thing or a panic thing and you're experiencing it, well, it somehow feels different because now you're just like, Oh, this is what this is, and I'm just gonna experience it rather than it being negative or positive, it just is. And in most instances, it's no fun. Like, we don't it's horrible. Right. Feeling those panic things, like your body is Yeah, it's absolutely miserable. It's your body saying, get ho get away from this thing. It's and and your body has a way of doing that, yeah. Which is designed into us for a f a huge purpose to protect ourselves. So I think just learning those things, um, leading all the way up to that flight was that it was the journey. And I didn't know what was gonna happen at that point along my journey. Was okay, now on my long journey, I'm gonna get on the plane, still part of my journey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I I felt oddly calm. And I was lucky because you were there, and you know, so I was like, Well, I got someone who actually lives.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's really crazy the anxiety thing is when you're hanging out with someone who has it because I don't know what it is. There's some kind of a relief mechanism there when you when someone's like, Oh yeah, did that, oh yeah, felt that feeling.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Takes like the social pressure off of it, kind of.
SPEAKER_05Definitely.
SPEAKER_03Because people who don't have never had a panic attack before don't I mean, and why would they, but they don't understand like how on the outside it looks like why would anything be wrong with you? And that's true, like, why would there be? And there's reasons for it about it, right? Yeah, like take a deep breath, relax. It's like, okay, maybe that like makes me feel one percent better for two minutes, and I'm then it's just ramped right back up. Yeah, so yeah, I think it's kind of like a social pressure.
SPEAKER_05Not only that for me, and I think for you too, when they say things like that or those things happen, which you can't blame them because if you don't know it, you don't know it. Yeah, and there's no way to know it. But then you feel not only like I'm in this panic situation and it's horrible, but now I'm letting you down too.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05And now it makes it like five times worse.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because not only have I letting myself down, well now I'm letting another human being down, especially one that I love. So now this is even this is ghastly at this point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I think that's one of the things that makes it so bad. Because I it was like I used to talk about how, well, like if someone had cancer, oh my gosh, you would just is there anything I can do for you? Like, I just feel terrible. But if someone has anxiety, it's like, what are you doing? Get over it. Yeah, it's like it's not the same, it's not an illness, it's just something that it's like we as humans just haven't really grasped, and I think for a long time we just self-medicated ourselves and didn't well yeah and didn't get to the real point of what it was.
SPEAKER_03And there's there's anxiety and then there's disordered anxiety, and so I think everyone, I mean, I know everyone experiences anxiety, so there I think that well-intentioned people are like, I have felt nervous or anxious or afraid before, and you know, I just take a deep breath, tell myself it's gonna be okay, and then I feel a little better and I move forward. And like that is a really great coping mechanism if you are a little anxious and you don't have disordered anxiety. If you have disordered anxiety, that doesn't work. I mean, we've like disordered anxiety wouldn't exist if that worked, right? We none of we've all done that, we've all taken deep breaths, we've all sipped ice water and taken a quick walk, and like we've done all of those things that are like normal and like anxious coping mechanisms, and they don't help because our brains are like so in this like learned behavior of all of these triggers are equal, like death, and it's you're just like in this constant survival mode.
SPEAKER_05And there is no way that anyone else can experience it if they haven't experienced it, and I don't want anyone else to experience it. Yeah, I know. I'm like, that's fine.
SPEAKER_03I think the less people that know what it's like the better.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So what like I remember when during the time that you had really bad anxiety, disordered anxiety, there were a lot of the really like super common triggers that you also had, like a lot of people have the same kind of things. Exercise, going to restaurants, crowds. How did you start like because now you do those things? So, like, how did you kind of get into that and then eventually getting on a plane, which is you know, for a lot of people, a really big deal exposure, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's an exposure that you can't walk out of.
SPEAKER_03I think, yeah, that's why it's such it's like yeah, because even driving a car, like I was always like, man, I've been on road trips before where I've been really anxious or panicky. Even when I was like really young. I remember being like, I feel like I've had a panic attack for the whole 12 hours we've been in the car, but I was still willing to do it because I didn't feel as trapped. Like I can hop out of this thing, you know, it's like pullover. I need to go on a walk, recalibrate, like, and I never did that. I just gritted my teeth through it the whole time and never got better. But but yeah, a plane is like, I mean, what are you gonna do? You're gonna sit in this.
SPEAKER_05You're gonna sit there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I just was kind of chuckling because I remember one time I was on this plane and it was one of those flights. I I was going to like, I remember I was even going to Los Angeles and it was winter time. And so it was cold outside, but it was hot on the plane, and so I had like a jacket on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And and then it was like uh it took forever, like something's wrong. This person's luggage is late, so you're sitting on the city. So your mind's like, okay, this is three and a half hours, so all I gotta do is hang in there, and it's a half an hour up and it's a half an hour down. Yeah, so I got so you're doing the math, and then okay, now this person is late and their luggage isn't there, or the bathroom doesn't work, or whatever, and then we back up and it's like, well, now there's too many flights and we gotta de-ice, and so now it's like so you're on the plane for like an hour and a half before you ever take off, and this happened.
SPEAKER_03That is the worst.
SPEAKER_05Last year or whatever when you were.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we were on the plane for two hours just on the tarmac, and eventually they let us get off for like 20 minutes, but I was sitting there for an hour and a half waiting takeoff. I was like, this is the worst 90 minutes of my life.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because like this is terrible.
SPEAKER_03And there were like sick kids around me, like literally throwing up into a bag. I was like, I mean, what let's just add what else could go on this? Bring it on.
SPEAKER_05Anyway, when I was chuckling was that I remembered like I'm hot and I gotta get out of this coat. And I'm like over by the window and there's people there, and I started to take my coat off, and then it got stuck. Like, I got like one arm halfway out, you know, and then I'm like reaching around behind to try and get the sleeve off, and I'm like, I can't get this freaking coat off. Like, I am now I'm hand I'm handcuffed on a hot plane, but I don't want oh geez. I finally got my coat off. I'm like, oh my gosh, like what am I doing here? Yeah, that's crazy. Just the funny stuff that happens in your mind, like it just adds up. I'm trying to remember exactly your question.
SPEAKER_03We kind of went there but like like different exposures you did.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah, yeah. So yeah, I was scared of everything. I didn't want to go get a haircut, I didn't want to go to a restaurant. I think I think the first start was the a lot of the reading and a lot of the sort of meditation, but not meditation and meditation, uh, more like the Eckhart Tole stuff of like just be in now, just be now. I think was a huge thing for me. You know, everybody's got the one that kind of connects with them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And his power of now, I never read the book, but I watch a lot of his YouTube videos. And so I would be like, I don't want to go to this restaurant, but I want to go be with my family. And then I would think, well, where are you right now? Oh, well, now is the night before and I'm in bed. I like it here. I'm just like this is a comfortable place reading a book. All right, well, this is where you are, this is the only thing that exists. Just be here. And you know, oh, I'm just in the car on the way to the place, you know, like you kind of can mentally just be where you are and not be there. And then oddly enough, then when you're there, you're like, Well, I'm just here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I can walk out if I need to, or what and so a lot of that for me, I think, was a big one. That because I'm a ruminator, like I'm always thinking of the future. I used to chuckle because we would say, like, you know, we would have been the cave people that lived because all we're always worried about like the saber-tooth tiger coming. Like everybody else would just be laying around having a good time, and a man and I'd be like, Nope, something bad's gonna happen. So, like, we are preparing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, very vigilant, very vigilant.
SPEAKER_05So I'm always like hyper aware of what terrible things can happen. And then after a while, you manifest those and they never happen, but you manifest them. You've you've told your subconscious self that you should be fearing for your life because yeah, death is coming. And it believes you because it has no senses outside of what you tell it, so you keep telling this thing the wrong thing, and pretty soon it just believes that, and now you're have disordered anxiety.
SPEAKER_03And especially when you tell when you tell yourself, tell your brain that something is not doable. This is too scary, this is too dangerous, it's too risky, and then behaviorally, behaviorally you avoid it. Then it's like double.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03It's like I told myself I couldn't do it, I proved to myself I couldn't do it, and now it's like locked into your brain that that thing is gonna kill you. So the next time you try to do it, it's gonna be like, no, we're not doing this. No, and that's the exact kind of feelings that people who have disordered anxiety have to learn to accept and live through, like you said, which is very, very hard. But it's really the only way. I mean, I can't. I'm not a therapist, you're not a therapist, but just like in from our experience and other people we've talked to, like the only way out is to live through it. There's no you can't think your way out of it, you can't just hope that it goes away, like you have to move through it.
SPEAKER_05And you can medicate it, but that's not getting out of it. I know that some people have it so bad that medication needs you need to have that buffer to kind of get yourself to it, and I believe in that. I've seen it, and I believe that's the truth. But I also believe that you can't just medicate it and not do the work on the other, not do the personal work. We were both lucky enough to just do the personal work, but some people with their chemistry have to do the medicine and the personal work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I that does work well for some for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I believe in it, but the only way out is through. And it does hurt. But it's no different of a hurt than you know, leaving your job to take another job that you know is gonna be better. That's hard because you're you're getting out of what you know, what's comfortable, even though it may suck or you don't like it, to move you know, to say, you know, I'm moving on and start over, it's hard and it hurts because like there's new people and like you don't know if they know you and then you you know they're scary and all this other stuff. But then on the other side of it, it's like, oh my gosh, the freedom. Like, I feel I'm actually doing what I want to do, I'm doing what I was made to do. I'm you know, I'm so glad I took that risk and went through that pain. And I think that's kind of what this is. And so yeah, I think that the biggest things for me were that being present all the time, having gratitude, no matter what the situation was. Like, oh, you know, I'm so thankful that it's raining, I'm so thankful that it's sunny, I'm so thankful that it's snowing. Doesn't matter what it is, there's beauty and there's love and there's wonderfulness in every situation, you know. Summer, of course, you know, a tornado is probably not wonderful, but but as much as you can be thankful, be thankful for the people around you, have gratitude and be present. I think we're the anchors that were the ones that sort of just got my nervous system calmed down and allowed me to just do the things that I needed to do to up to the point where I did all the hard work and then I ran the race, which is when I got on the airplane. And then when I ran it, I was like, oh, this is what why am I not feeling panicky or anxious? Like I don't even know what to think right now because I just don't feel like I feel like a normal, I feel like what I think a normal person would feel like, which is what my goal was.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But it's weird when it happens, and then I just kept pressing into it, and so then when it came time for this other event that I would have normally said, well, I'll just drive to. I was like, No, I'm just gonna fly. And just the act of going on like Delta and booking my flight for myself was really weird because even that would have made me anxious.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I felt a little excited. I was like, This is gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_05Because I love to travel, which I think a lot of people that have anxiety do. Like, we don't wanna be in our house or stuck somewhere. We want to go experience the world and the beauty and and all that it is, and that's exciting, and so I think that I was a little excited. Like, I'm gonna go somewhere and I'm gonna do this and it's and I'm gonna be fine. And I just and then I don't let the negative stuff creep in. Even if I was like, oh well, what's gonna happen? It doesn't matter. That's six months from now, that's three months from now, that's one month from now. This is what it is. Right now, right here, I'm just having a conversation with you. It's great. You're my friend, I'm having a good time. It doesn't matter what's gonna happen next week, because you might not get to it anyway.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, true. So and then it's not worth all the worry.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so just and yeah, so it was just that constant mental thing. I did have, I think, something that maybe some people that haven't flown before have, and that was I used to fly a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I could visualize, which I did. Oh, I'm just gonna sit in a seat, cross my legs, get my book, I'm gonna have my little ginger ale.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Like, I do that at home. I mean, this is just yeah, I'm on this airplane. I've done it before, I know what it feels like. I like to look out the window, I love airports, I love hotels, I you know, I like to see different places and so I could just constantly, if I felt anything at all, I would just visualize how good of a time I was gonna have. So instead of that telling your brain things were gonna be terrible, I just kept telling it that things were gonna be fun and good.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. And logistically, because I like to get into the weeds of things, I think what you're saying in that situation is your brain is producing these sort of negative thoughts, like not like subconsciously. Like you're not purposely like, okay, what could go wrong? Here I'm gonna think about it, but it's like a negative thought pops into your brain, like a worry pops in, and there's nothing we can do about that. Our brains pop thoughts into our heads all the time that we can't control, but then when that happened, you add it in something on purpose that's like, okay, but I'm gonna visualize something positive, so to just kind of like counterbalance it, yeah, or like spin a more positive story.
SPEAKER_05And I think I try to do that in everything, no matter what it is, everything's gonna be okay, even if it's not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because I don't know whether it's gonna be or not.
SPEAKER_03And we always can handle more than we think we can. That's true for everybody.
SPEAKER_05100%. It's shocking how much you can handle.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03I'm curious too if there's anything you're doing, because you went on this flight by yourself, which is super cool, because it's like you always used to do that and then you couldn't do it, and now it's like that's on the table now, which is great. Are there things you do or are plan on doing as like what I call maintenance? Like I have to do certain things, and I think everyone does, but I'm prone to disordered anxiety, and I want to like maintain my progress, which at this point in my life doesn't take that much effort. You know, I'm like, I'm just kind of in the habit of doing things. I've taught my brain new stories, like this is not something that's like every day I wake up, I have this routine, but there are certain things I do in part to like maintain a healthy mind and to not move backwards into like patterns of avoidance when things are uncomfortable. Do you have anything like that?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I actually think that that is all my life will ever be is maintenance because I and that is true for anything, like health. I you're I'm always gonna walk. I don't like to walk. I've learned to like to walk. I mean, like, I I I don't there's no joy in just walking down a trail for me. But what I have learned over the time is like, oh, you can enjoy this. You can not think about the I'm just out here bored walking. I'm looking at things, I'm listening to birds, I'm looking at the sky, I'm really enjoying the gift of being alive in this place, and that fills me up. So I'm gonna walk the rest of my life. I'm going to try and eat right the rest of my life. I'm gonna try to, you know, be around people, friends, family, spend a lot of time doing that the rest of my life. Because those are things that add to your health. And so I believe the mental things are just like what you're talking about, the maintenance stuff is the same. Like I will read every day. I'll try to uh read new literature and read, you know, as much as I can to learn um about what it was like to be a human and what it is like to be a human and and why, you know, just all the whys forever. Like there is no not, there is no stopping, right? You gotta learn new things and and constantly be enriching your brain, I think. And those will be the things that I did to get to where I am. So yeah, you still have to practice being present. I've noticed. So I've been on the road the last five weeks for work, and I really notice that my battery is like down. And you can kind of feel you feel that you feel that sort of wore outness, which sort of lets some of that stuff kind of slip back in because you're just tired. Yeah, I'm tired.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And mentally I can kind of feel that I think kind of the feelings maybe or the feels that I had before, but now I recognize them just as no, you're just tired. You gotta give yourself a break. You gotta you do actually have to rest a little bit, but keep doing all the things. Keep, you know, keep eating right, keep going for your walks. Maybe they're not as long. Keep doing your reading in the morning, keep, you know, being grateful and thankful and all the things and and just keep in your routines and let this pass. But you're not going back. You're just going forward, so don't worry about that. I guess that's the way I kind of think about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Are there any specific like exposure specific kind of like exposure things that you're like, oh I wanna I don't even know, like, yeah, make sure I don't wait this long, you know, because so much of what so much of the progress we made was by purposely going into situations that made us uncomfortable and learning that we could handle them. So whether it like as far as maintenance goes or things like that, are there any of like those kinds of things?
SPEAKER_05Man, I can't I can't think of one right off.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, because the X's, the going on walks, it really is one of those things. Like this is something that is like there's friction to going on a walk, and there's friction to reading, and there's like I think f yeah. I actually saw a YouTube video recently, um, I can't remember the woman's name, but she was talking about how we need friction in our life, and there's like mental and emotional and physical and maybe another category. Yeah. Um, and if we don't have friction, not only do we not grow, but we actually like regress when there's no friction, we get worse.
SPEAKER_05Yep. A friend of mine always said, like, if you sort of picture life as a spring, it's like you're always either going up or you're going down. There's no like I'm fine right here. I'm just gonna stay. If you think you're staying, you're just kind of kidding yourself, you're actually going down. So if you're just like, oh, I'm just gonna sit around on the couch for the next three months because I'm here now, well, you're not. You just don't sense the fact that you're going down, but you are going down. So if you're not going up, you're going down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I that's true. It it does remind me about the walks. There was one thing, and that was is that I didn't like going for walks in the summertime.
SPEAKER_03Oh, because of the heat.
SPEAKER_05Because of the heat, yeah, that's the heat. Because it makes you feel like oppressed. And so I really pushed into that this summer because we had lots of nice heat.
SPEAKER_03It was really hot, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I would get up in the morning and I would you know, I could tell myself, well, you know, you're just gonna go like, you know, wherever. Pick a spot five minutes away, right? I'm just gonna go just a quick walk. And then you find out, like, well, now I'm here, I might as well just go the next thirty minutes out and back or whatever. And and I can remember one time I was out there and I was like, I was f I felt it. I felt that sort of panicky or anxious, like, I'm a long ways from home, I don't have any water. You know, all the because you leave all that behind. And I'm just out here and I was walking and I was just and what I always tell myself is like, well, just keep walking.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And you will walk yourself all the way back to freedom.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because and I and then the more that you walk or the more you exercise, because I would think I literally would think, well, my legs are fine. My legs aren't tired.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05So I can just keep walking myself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just keep moving.
SPEAKER_05And so it doesn't matter that this part feels kind of anxious or it's hot. I just gotta keep walking.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean so I just would do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that makes sense. I um I was gonna say I uh I started running again recently, which who knows if I'm gonna stick with this. I usually do a stint every couple years. Yeah. Um, but I've been running recently and I was on a run the other day and I wanted to go like really push myself. Like how because I know it's my mind always quits before my body quits. And I was like, I just think I think I can run four miles, which to me is crazy. People with our genetics don't run four miles. No, no, anyway. So I was like, I think I can run four miles, and Tom is very big on endurance sports, and so he was helping me like, you know, make sure you eat something, like you gotta whatever. It's like okay, so I ate something here, and then I was running, and then I turned around to come home, and I was like, okay, like I'm feeling pretty good, and like about halfway, I was like, I think I'm gonna actually faint. Like, I've never been, maybe a couple of times in my life, felt like I could actually faint right now because panic disorder is like every day I felt like I might faint, but it wasn't. There was like a part of me that's like this is anxiety, and this was like I might actually pass out out here, and I'm like two miles away from my house. And I was like, Okay, like unintentional exposure, kind of. I was like, what do I do? Like, I just need to be logical about it. Like, I don't the crazy thing for me, and why I brought that up is because it was super uncomfortable. It's like I do not want to pass out two miles away from my house, and like someone's gonna have to come and like deal with this. Like, you I'm gonna have to call an ambulance, I don't know, whatever. Um, and I was like, the interesting thing, and I thought about it right away, like, I'm not afraid of this in like a panicky way that I would have been years ago. And I was like, okay, what do I need to do? I was like, I'm just gonna, if I could be, if I could be running, I can be walking. So then it's kind of the same thing. I was like, well, I'm just gonna keep moving towards home. And I felt like I was gonna faint almost the whole two miles, but I just like kept walking. I was like, I don't, I don't know, I guess I'm just gonna walk until I pass out. And um eventually made it back to my car, came home, like ate something and felt fine. And I was like, that is just like when people ask about like, do you still have panic disorder? Like, I don't people don't understand, like I use the word recovered or like recovery, because to me, I'm like, that experience made me nervous. Like, nobody wants to have those feelings, but I didn't panic, and I went out two days later and like ran again. And before that would have been the end of it, and I would have stayed in my house for six months probably to avoid having that feeling again, and so it's very free actually to be able to have an uncomfortable experience and move through it how you want to, and then move on with your life and like overcome something like that.
SPEAKER_05I love how you use the word I thought about it logically.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because when you're in it, you don't think about anything logically because logically none of this makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And you can't really act like that.
SPEAKER_05No, and so actually you gave yourself that space to go, wait a second. Well, I guess if I pass out, I just pass out. Like you know, it's not like crazy that people wouldn't pass out.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05But my legs are fine. You know, like and I was thinking I didn't run. I don't know that I'll ever get back. Yeah, I will. But um I probably will have to run because I don't like to walk so much that if I'm gonna get my exercise, I'm not gonna want to walk as far as I need to walk to be able to feel good.
SPEAKER_03So Or if you're bored and you want to get home quick, you've gotta run.
SPEAKER_05Just gotta trot a little bit, maybe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, but yeah, that's that is so yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it's really good.
SPEAKER_03And now I know like I learned something about my body too. I was like, oh, I kind of felt a certain way and I didn't faint. So like I know I don't necessarily want to push myself to that point very often, but I had an experience that was like, oh, like my body can do that. And I didn't, I didn't pass out, I didn't throw up, I didn't like nothing happened. I just was like lightheaded and uh had a weird feeling that I don't normally have. But I like now I just have new information. I'm like, oh, I can actually push myself that hard. I didn't know that because it was uncomfortable and unfamiliar, but it's sort of like new map unlocked sort of things.
SPEAKER_05Like so what are there some things maintenance-wise that you have to do? Like you know, you were asking me, what are some things that you have to do?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good question. Um, I guess I don't have like switch over it. Yeah. I don't have like a list of things like like I said, at this point in my life, I mostly don't think about anxiety unless I'm working. Um Or in a situation like that, where I'm like, whoa, this used to be something I couldn't do, and now I can do it. And I'm like, I'm grateful a lot for things I can do because they don't make me afraid. But um, yeah, I guess there are certain things like I realized in going through my recovery phase that growth is like a huge value of mine, and continuing to grow and better myself is just something that's like really important to me and important to talk about with other people too, because I just like even like you've reminded me before, as a kid, I like was I wanted to teach other kids things, I like always wanted to like develop other people, and yeah, that's like a value of mine. I'm like, I believe so much in the capability of other people to grow and like be whoever they want that I want to talk about it and like tell people like I didn't think I could do any of this. Like, I'm not like oh yeah, I do hard things all the time, I'll get through this. Like, I never did hard things. That's like why I got to the point that I got to. And if I can do it, I literally think anybody could do it. And so, in general, my like maintenance is taking care of my physical body, like exercising, eating healthy in my mind, meditating, reading, things like that. Um, but also like doing things that make me uncomfortable, even if it's really small. Like some days I don't feel like uh leaving the house, you know, you're just like tired, you feel like a homebody, whatever. And some days I just do that because we need rest too. Um, and I've learned a lot about how to balance those things through this journey, which is another bonus. But yeah, sometimes I'm like, am I avoiding this because I'm like because I need rest or because my body doesn't want the friction right now? And if that's the case, I get ready, I pack up my stuff, and I like go work at a coffee shop. And the second I leave the house, I'm like ready to do it. It's not like it was a huge deal, but yeah, I guess just when those things come up, it's important to me to yeah, sometimes you have to do things that cause a little friction, and I want to do those things.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love how you the the word growth. That's kind of maybe what I was searching for. I think that's for all of us humans, that is the thing. Like there's no end to that. And I love that, and I love that about you. And that is really cool. Yeah, and I do believe that too. I always tell people, like, I think my dad didn't teach me how to do everything, but I think he taught me that there isn't anything you can't do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good point. Like you can figure this out.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Yeah. Or you can pick up the phone and phone a friend and say, like, well, how do I do this? you know, and so whatever it is in your life, you either can do it or with some help, you can do it. So you should just try and be not be afraid to fail. And I think that's part of anxiety too. Like, yeah, I gotta go out, I gotta go to a restaurant, and I might fail. I might like be like, I gotta go outside, guys. But I'm not afraid to do that anymore. Um I'm okay with being who I am, and I'm I accept the fact that this is my genetic disposition, but I also don't accept that my body is not gonna do what I want it to do. Like we're going. And like you can you can like it or not like it, body, but we're gonna go. Yeah. And um and what you find out most of the time is like, okay. Yeah. After you've kind of gone through all the recovery, like you say, then it's like you're shocked that it's doing what you want it to do, more than you're anxious about it not doing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's seems like it's never as big of a deal. Even before you went on this flight last month or a few weeks ago, whatever it was. Something I was talking to someone that's like in this community about I think they had asked me about like tips for flying alone, and I was like, Oh, I've never actually done that. So I was like, okay, I think like I don't I don't I'm not like scheduling exposures anymore. I stopped doing that years ago where I'm like, okay, today I'm going out to my car and like I don't do that anymore. But I was like, that's something I've never done that I feel like I need to prove to myself that I can do. So that was on my list, and then you did it, and I'm like, well, I really have to do it.
SPEAKER_05Oh jeez, am I gonna do this?
SPEAKER_03I know. So uh anyway, that's my next thing.
SPEAKER_05And you're gonna have so much fun.
SPEAKER_03I think I will, and I'm also like in planning, I haven't actually started planning it yet, but I'm hoping to go somewhere like October, November. I'm like, where do I want to go? I mean, I've never gone anywhere by myself, I don't have a reason to travel for work right now, so I'm like, we have family in Arizona. Um, Tom has family in Pennsylvania and Virginia and Vancouver and other parts of Canada, and I'm like, I could just go like visit somebody and like hang out for a little bit, or I could just go to Chicago and like spend a day by myself. Like, there's just so many, I'm like, wow, it's a lot of opportunity to like do something really cool.
SPEAKER_05And it is really weird, and I think it does push you as a human being to have to deal with just being with yourself. I think there is something to that, honestly. Like some of us only know being with other people that we know, and have and that's comfortable and it's great, and I love it, but it's another dimension when you're the only person you're with is you and a bunch of strangers, you know, and like but you don't have to communicate with them or anything. You're just you're in your hotel room alone and you're at the restaurant alone and you're on the plane alone. And there's like, how do I deal with just being by myself? Yeah, and like what do I am I gonna talk to? Or what you know, well, I now I guess I'm gonna read this book I've been wanting to read, or I'm gonna eat go to this restaurant that I wanted to go to, or I'm gonna enjoy this. And I think some people live their lives that way, and they don't get it. They're like, I know we both know people that just live alone, they've never been married, they just like life that way. And I've since my memory, you know, that's not been my situation. And so it is kind of it's a little weird to just be like, Well, what do what do I want to do?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's no one to consult.
SPEAKER_05And also we tend to be people pleasers, like whatever you want. So we're both like doing that battle of like, well, what do you want? Well, what do you want? What way do you want? Yeah. And so it's weird to be like, I guess I just gotta figure out what I want. You know?
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05And it would be weird for anyone, especially someone like that.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05You'll have fun. It'll be it'll be a crazy experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I'll be nervous, which is a good thing. Like, you know, it's I wanna have the first time. Or you might not. I know I might not. Yeah, sometimes I'm usually a little nervous flying, and then sometimes not at all, and it just who knows why. I don't care why, to be honest.
SPEAKER_05But well, I don't think I think that makes total sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because it's kind of a weird thing to do.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05I you know, taking your body up to 30,000 feet in a tube somewhere, you know, like it's not normal. It's normal to our society now, but it's not like this is a crazy technology. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05If you had never done it before, yeah, you should be nervous. If you're not nervous, then there's probably something wrong. Now, if we're some of us that have flown and flown and flown, well, you now you've done it so much you're not nervous anymore. Like speaking in front of people or whatever, that's an unit's not a natural thing and it's nerve-wracking. So I think to some some extent, we probably need to be more accepting of our nervousness and say, like, you probably should if you weren't nervous, something would be wrong with your nervous system.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. To do something like that for the first time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, totally. So just be like, yeah. Oh, this is what nervous feels like. Yeah, it's it's my body just doing what my body's designed to do. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just gonna be like, oh, that's what it feels like when your body gets scared or gets nervous.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05It's fun. I enjoy I certainly enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_03I'm glad, yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's why I was like that's why I text you, I think, because I was sitting there in my seat, looking, you know, up to the front of the plane, thinking, this is just bizarre that I'm I'm actually sitting here just fine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that is weird. After so long of like not even being able to like leave your house without being nervous.
SPEAKER_05Not even being able to think about the thought of doing it someday without being nervous.
SPEAKER_03Right. And then actually just like doing it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, just sitting there. Just like I had envisioned, my legs crossed with my book and my ginger ale.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Just sitting there like, uh, yeah, this is just how I imagined it would be just fine.
SPEAKER_03Pretty cool.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it was cool. Super thankful, super, super thankful. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the tea again. This tea is just a little bit more than a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's summertime now, so we got iced tea version. Yeah, thanks for coming.
SPEAKER_05Yep. Look forward to the next time. Yeah, see you then.