Jeff Korzenik: Second Chance Hiring

Scott sits down with economist Jeff Korzenik, author of Untapped Talent, to discuss the business case for second chance hiring. They explore why employing justice-impacted individuals strengthens the workforce, reduces stigma, and benefits communities. Jeff shares practical strategies for identifying job-ready candidates, supporting employees facing systemic barriers, and building more productive teams. The conversation highlights how giving people a second chance is not just the right thing to do, but a smart economic decision.

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Transcript

Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Jeff Korzenik, thanks for joining us today here on the Rue Three Pointers podcast. Jeff, we work um together in a couple of ways. You're the chief economist of a major commercial bank. Um, but your passion um is all wrapped up in the book you wrote, Untapped Talent. Um, I want to get that the title, How Second Chance Hiring Works for Your Business in the Community. Jeff, we we spend a lot of time talking about returning citizens, justice-impacted individuals. Why are you so passionate about this?

Why It Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Sometimes I'm not sure why, to tell you the truth. Um, as an economist, you want everyone who wants to be able to work to work and to be able to have as productive a career path as possible. But I think it's much more fundamental to being a human being. And um, I I think of my family as having second chances in the United States. We're uh my mom's a war refugee, my father's parents were immigrants. I I want everyone to be able to live up to their potential. And if something has sent them down the wrong path, um, to give them the second chance to thrive.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I should probably just be more clear too. You probably run into this people, you talk about second chance, and people don't really know.

Defining Second Chance

SPEAKER_00 1:21

We're talking about people who are coming out of prison or people who have a felony conviction, or even a misdemeanor, but yeah, and second chance hiring, sometimes called fair chance hiring, is the intentional seeking out of people with that kind of justice impact as a talent pool.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Okay, you I bet you have there's like a stereotypical reaction you get from people who have never considered this before. What is it?

Breaking Stigma

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Like I'm um, you know, some people instinctively well, sure, why wouldn't we? Right. But a lot of people have um a stigma. I I disagree with what you're doing, they're bad people. Um people should be punished, they shouldn't shouldn't be singled out in a positive way. And um, I'm very pragmatic. My whole approach has been pragmatic. Uh roughly 95% of people in prison, for instance, which is just a subset of the people with criminal records, but 95% of the people in prison today will come out and be our neighbors. Um why wouldn't we want them to be good neighbors? And part of being a good neighbor is having the chance to get employed. And it's makes us look, it makes us safer when people who have a criminal record been incarcerated, and for instance, um, it makes us safer when they have an opportunity to have careers and jobs. So why wouldn't we selfishly want that? But but people don't draw that connection, and and there is this kind of stereotypical people with criminal records are you know bad people, um, and it's much more complex than that.

Workforce Opportunity

SPEAKER_01 3:01

You you talk in your role as chief economists a lot about workforce shortages, and we're talking about 20 million people here that are marginalized.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

But more than my numbers right, yeah, it's 19 million people. Uh first of all, the data is old. There's a data problem in this whole criminology field. But um, what we know from around 2010 is 19 million Americans have a felony conviction. Okay, but you that's a barrier to employment, but you add on to that tens of millions more. We don't even know how many, but tens of millions more who have some other kind of a criminal record like a misdemeanor. And uh that's a lot of people, and we need people to make the economy thrive. And you need people not just to be workers, but to be able to be productive workers. That's that's your book over your shoulder, by the way, for people who shamelessly want to know what the book looks like.

Hiring Best Practices

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, there it is. We're we're not hiding it. Um, in the book, you talk, you you kind of do some case studies and you and you talk to employers about like what's best practices. Give me some some of the tips for best practices.

Business Impact

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Sure. And what I say, this is what I've kind of contributed. Not number one to the field, the contribution that employers should do this because it's in their self-interests, not because of it's a social good. Employers should do this because it's part of how you get the best person for every job. Um, the best practices um boil down to having two processes. One one, you need a way of picking which people among the population of people with criminal records are ready to be good employees. Because not all of them are. I'm again, I'm I'm a pragmatist. Um some of the people who say leave prison are going to go back to prison because they haven't gotten their head and heart in the right place. Those aren't going to be good employees. Some are people who um could be good employees but don't know how because they've never seen it in their families. They don't have they have multi-generational uh poverty, often multi-generational interaction with the justice system. And some are ready right away. So it's how do you pick, you know, who's ready or who can be made ready. The other process that employers who do this well find out is that um there are a lot of roadblocks that crop up for people with criminal records, sometimes related to their justice, the justice system, but very often just related to deep poverty. And so employers don't have to solve these processes, but they need to understand what their workforce is going through: food insecurity, inability to buy um work-appropriate clothing because they don't have the means, housing insecurity, transportation challenges. And while the employer doesn't have to solve for these, they have to be aware of them and ideally have a network of resources that their workforce can tap into and support them. What's the reward um when it works? Sure. Reward is and why this works is from an economic proposition, is that if you find someone who is ready to turn their life around, they want to prove that they are more than their worst mistake. They want to prove it to themselves, to their families, to their community, to their employer. And that's a recipe for a really dedicated employee, someone who really cares about their job. Moreover, they understand the obstacles. Um, people who've come out of prison, applying for jobs. It's not uncommon to apply for more than 100 jobs to get even a low-entry, low low entry level menial job. Um, they tend to appreciate any opportunities that are given and have a lot of loyalty. And that combat combination of engagement in a job and staying with the employer is a recipe for productivity, which is a recipe for profitability.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, and as you know, I've had the opportunity to see all of this firsthand. Um in you know, starting at the correctional facility in Kiwani, Illinois, with the workforce initiatives there, local businesses embracing and participating um with um opportunities for work, both while they're still while they're transitioning um out of the correctional facility. But I think the thing that really um got to me the most and kind of touched me the most was the communities, the the the everyday people's um ability to confront their own biases and fears. Yes, and when they did that, like the bonds that they formed because they got past those fears and and those biases are so strong and it's emotional.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Well, you know, I often say that um uh you know people with criminal records are very grateful for my work, right? Because I've helped open doors, I can point to thousands of jobs through through a number of employers that have been created that were created through my research and through my book, and that was a catalyst for for some great employers stepping up. Um so people who've been justice impacted tend to be very grateful for what I've done. But I always think I'm the winner, and I think I'm the winner because I have people in my life now who have been justice impacted, who have rebuilt their lives, and they are the most among the most stand-up people in my life. So, you know, here I am in my 60s, making new friends with people with completely different walks of life, and they enrich my life and they stand by me, and I know I can count on them as friends. Um, that's pretty, that's pretty great.

Policy & Progress

SPEAKER_01 8:52

That's a that's a legacy there. Um, and I know you're not done. Like you're just getting started. Like honestly, your your work here is is you would consider it in your in its infancy, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah, it is. I mean, there's so much more to be done. Um, we've made progress. We made progress for the reason that the labor got market got really tight, and employers were willing to consider, were more open to considering anything. We're in a pause right now because the labor market isn't as tight, and there's also some political environment that has been um uh I I believe that many employers have misinterpreted signals from the administration uh about DEI, for instance, and think they can't go here and do second chance hiring or can't promote it. Um, I I am 100% sure they are they're wrong. Um and in fact, the labor department recently issued some um tens of millions of dollars of grants to support second chance hiring and training of people with criminal records. So the administration has um not focused on this. I think they missed an opportunity in the past. The past several administrations have um declared April to be second chance month. Last April, um, unlike the first Trump administration last April, uh there was no White House proclamation. I think it was an oversight. But I my hope is as the administration starts to pivot more to domestic issues, this will come back. And I think it's worth noting that the first Trump administration um led a bipartisan effort for prison reform. That's the most significant criminal justice reform done in generations, and it's a good and was really good reform, struggling in implementation. Uh, you know, the other thing that I think is really interesting about the administration is they are two prominent individuals I can think of who are in the administration who were incarcerated. The uh the pardoned czar, Alice Marie Johnson, um uh uh spent uh decades for a nonviolent uh conviction. Um she's a wonderful person. I've met her. And then um Josh uh Smith, who's the um deputy director of the Bureau of Prisons, was formerly incarcerated many decades ago. Um he's a he's a terrific businessman. Um I I know him very slightly, and um he I see the the business like discipline he's bringing to leadership in the Bureau of Prisons. And um I I think it's gonna have some really positive outcomes uh both for the economy and and for the areas where they they oversee directly.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Um yeah, in that intersection between you know writing the book and being in in in and lobbying, talking to the to the politicians, you know, that's that that's part of getting it done. I I was recently at a at a ceremony that was where my dad was being honored for his work in workforce development. And what struck out to me about it is you know, is honored by the state of Illinois, so there's state legislators there talking. There's um head of the department of education, the the department of um labor was there and talking. The third person who talked was a gentleman who was released from prison after 20 years last year, and he's got a stable job and he's working in Springfield and doing very well. And so I thought that was a great mix.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

That is a great mix. You know, what one of the things that I really enjoy about this work is um it brings so many people together, and I think it's um fundamentally about what who we are as Americans. Uh, we are, and and I say this with my immigrant background, we're the land of opportunity. And when when I um during the first Trump administration, I attended two events at the White House, never met the president. You know, I'm one of hundreds in the crowd, but um at one point, uh the president in his speech uh emphasized when we say land of opportunity, we mean land of opportunity for all. And I think that concept um resonates with a lot of Americans and across party lines, um, and and a rare moment uh of unity. Yes. All too rare, uh, but it is one. And you know, I I have uh collaborators in this space who are way to the left of me. Um, I have uh collaborators in the space who are evangelical Christians who are to the right of me. Um, but we can all agree on fundamental dignity of the individual human and the desire for people to have the opportunity to build build lives of meaning and contribution.

Theater Quiz

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Absolutely. Okay, Jeff, this is the point in the podcast. Um, this is my ambush part of it. It's a quiz. Um I'm gonna go to your one of your other passions, which is theater. Yes. Um, and it is a short quiz on on theater, and some of these are pretty easy, so you better get them. Um of them maybe not so much. Okay, longest running Broadway show ever. Oh, I don't know. I that's terrible. You want to say cats, don't you? You know, you want to say I did actually. I I I did, but I couldn't believe is that still running on Broadway. No, but it's not cats. No, it I don't think this is running anymore. It's just it's the it was the longest running. Well, Mousetrap was forever, but that was in the West End. Yeah, that was maybe that's West End on Broadway. It was Phantom of the Opera.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Ah, okay, that makes sense. I saw it on Broadway, it's terrific. Um, I'm gonna fail this quiz miserably already.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

No, here this one I found really because you hear the question, you're you're gonna go, oh, I knew that uh of the 40 plus Broadway theaters, and they're not all about Broadway, by the way. Of the 40 plus Broadway theaters, how many of them are on Broadway?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Oh boy, I I would say like it's a low number, it's like three or something like that. Yeah, it's four, four, yeah. And I didn't like how does that happen? Well, I did that by going down memory lane of commuting to between Port Authority and Midtown. Uh that's impressive. I was looking at Midtown, and and I came up with three that I could think of. Um, so I was close.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

No, I'm gonna give you that one. I'm gonna give you that one. One four I'm not gonna give you the one where you said West End instead of Broadway, but that's but you're probably right. Um, which production received the most Tonies of all time? Well, yeah. Wow, I have absolutely no idea. You won't be shocked when I say Hamilton. Oh wow, yeah. Okay, now I'm gonna go to I saw it in Chicago, not in Broadway. I did too, yeah. Yeah. Um, which play's name cannot be uttered out loud in a theater? Oh, the Scottish play. This well, you can say you're not in the theater. You can't say much about in the theater. There's so many when I was researching this, there's so many things that are bad luck. Did you know peacock feathers are bad luck? No, because it's got like an evil eye in it. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

You can't whistle backstage.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

That's that one. I've heard that one.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

There's so many things they have the ghost light that they leave on. Yes, I know the ghosts, yeah. Okay, but it's I learned a lot. Um, all right. You were just at the International Puppet Festival in Chicago, Chicago, the Chicago International Puppet.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Fantastic. Highly recommended. Highly recommended, and it was um both gratifying and dismaying. It was hard to get tickets. I mean, I uh a lot of the shows sold out in theaters that seat, you know, four or five hundred people. So it is uh gone from this kind of fringe, strange thing that geeky theater people like me found interesting to uh becoming mainstream, as it is in Europe. You know, you uh puppet the theater is much more mainstream in Europe. Um, it's time it came to the United States. This is, I should stress for your viewers, this is not theater for children necessarily. This is serious adult theater. Um, one of the best shows we saw was a uh, I want to say Norwegian um the theater group that did um Ibsen's The Doll House using uh full-size, adult-sized puppets and and combined with live performers, and it was fabulous. So very serious theater, well done.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

All right, two quizzes, two questions. Um what's the origin of the word Muppet? Jim Henson didn't like the word puppet. I used to know this, I no longer know this. It's just marionette and puppet put together. Very good, very good. Um, and oldest known puppet ever found in within a thousand years.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Oh, I'm I'm gonna say going back to like uh a thousand BC or something. I mean, this is pretty ancient tradition.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

They're giving us yeah, uh like 3,000 years. So I so that would be a thousand BC, yes. It would, right? I mean I think you hit it on the head. Yeah, like uh and rich treatment.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

You got high marks there. Like I'm gonna go places like Indonesia, I mean, um really rich shadow puppetry in that case, but but uh it is um the way I try to explain it to friends who who look at me quizzically when I say I'm going to a puppet theater festival, is um before there was uh CGI, you know, computer generated, uh this was the way to stretch the imagination. Characters could fly, characters could go to other planets, um, they could do anything, and gods became real on the stage. Um, because you can do things with puppets that you can't do with human beings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Um, Jeff, thanks for your time today. Thanks for talking about untapped talent and thanks for all the work you do there.