The Ryan Vet Show

Michaeleen Doucleff: Hunt, Gather, Parent, Dopamine Kids, and What Modern Parenting Gets Wrong

• Episode 28

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What if everything we know about modern parenting is wrong? NPR global health correspondent and bestselling author Michaeleen Doucleff joins The Ryan Vet Show for the first guest episode of year two, on Hunt, Gather, Parent, Dopamine Kids, and what parents actually have power to change.

Michaeleen Doucleff spent nearly 12 years as a global health correspondent at NPR, covering infectious disease outbreaks from Liberia during the Ebola crisis to rural villages on every continent. Then she became a mom, and realized something that would change her life and her work: the parents she met in Maya villages in the Yucatan, with Inuit families in the Arctic, and in Tanzania weren’t struggling the way she was. They were calm, their kids were helpful, and the whole model of family life looked different. That observation became Hunt, Gather, Parent, a New York Times bestseller that has sold more than a million copies in over thirty languages. Her follow-up, Dopamine Kids, takes on the science of screens, ultra-processed foods, and what they’re actually doing to children.

In this conversation with host Ryan Vet, Michaeleen walks through what cross-cultural parenting research reveals about cooperation, conflict, and what kids actually need from the adults in their lives. She challenges the seventy-year-old myth that dopamine is the pleasure center of the brain (it’s not, it’s the wanting and craving system), and explains why that distinction matters for every parent dealing with screens, apps, or kids who can’t seem to put the iPad down. She talks about the ultra-processed food environment that nobody chose but everybody is living in, the Harvard research on why these foods are designed for overconsumption, and the practical sanctuaries parents can build at home to take their power back.

Ryan and Michaeleen also discuss the loneliness of modern parenthood, the mental health crisis among kids, and why so much of what passes for parenting advice today is based on twenty-five-year-old research that hasn’t kept up with the science. The conversation closes with Michaeleen’s hope for Gen Alpha and Gen Z, and the early signs that a generation is starting to recognize what’s been lost.

In this episode:

  • How Michaeleen went from PhD chemist to NPR global health correspondent to bestselling parenting author
  • What the Maya, Inuit, and Tanzanian parents she lived with taught her that California couldn’t
  • Why “your kids are being born into their world, you’re not being born into theirs” is the most important parenting reframe
  • The cooperation model: including kids in adult work instead of orbiting your life around theirs
  • Why dopamine is not the brain’s pleasure system, and why that distinction matters for every parent
  • How ultra-processed foods, apps, and devices are designed to crank dopamine while killing pleasure
  • The five practical tools from Dopamine Kids for weaning kids off screens without leaving them empty handed
  • Why food cues, not hunger, drive most eating, and how parents can use that science in their favor
  • The case for sanctuaries: protected spaces and times in the home where devices don’t enter
  • Michaeleen’s hope for Gen Alpha and Gen Z, and what the early data is showing

Referenced in this episode:

  • Hunt, Gather, Parent: What Ancient Cultures Can Teach Us About the Lost Art of Raising Happy, Helpful Little Humans by Michaeleen Doucleff
  • Dopamine Kids by Michaeleen Doucleff
  • Harvard research on ultra-processed foods and appetite regulation
  • Ryan Vet’s COLLIDE essay on the loneliness of parenthood: ryanvet.com/collide

Connect with Michaeleen Doucleff:

Connect with Ryan Vet:

Subscribe to The Ryan Vet Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. The guest era continues every Monday at 6am ET. Next week: Mike Schneider on the generational housing question and why some millennials are going back to wired headphones, home phones, and analog life. The COLLIDE essay podcast continues every Thursday at 7am ET.

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About Ryan Vet

Ryan Vet is a USA TODAY bestselling author, futurist, and international keynote speaker whose insights on generations, culture, and the future of work have been featured in Forbes, Financial Times, ABC, NBC, and CBS. His research helps leaders understand emerging generational patterns and anticipate societal shifts before they fully unfold.

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SPEAKER_01

On this episode of the Ryan Vett Show.

SPEAKER_00

We in America often just lead them in the child world and they never see the adult world. And I think it's one of the reasons why we have this mental health crisis we have is because for a kid to feel really good about themselves, they need to feel like they're learning to be an adult, right? They're learning to contribute to society, to their family, and be productive. And we've kind of stripped that away from our kids, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to another episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I'm here with Michaeline Duclef today to chat about two of her books. And I was telling Michaeline this right before we got on. But uh I read a lot of books as anyone who listens for any length of time knows. And I have to say that Hunt Gather Parent, which came out just a couple years ago, is still one of my favorite books just because it's human. And I feel like so many books that you read are pie in the sky from a researcher's seat and just miss that human connection. And Michelin does a fantastic job in that book, and it sold over a million copies, which is an extraordinary accomplishment, and is now in at least 30 different languages and probably still counting up. So, Michaeline, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you for that that beautiful introduction.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Now, we've got to go to your background a little bit because you are a reporter, but before that, you are a chemist, PhD. And and so what made you so fascinated in cultures around the world for your book Hunt and Gather Parent? Then we'll get into dopamine kids, which I'm really excited to chat about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, so I spent I've spent like almost 12 years as a global health correspondent at NPR where I was covering infectious diseases. So like the NPR would send me out to some outbreak in some rural part of the world. Like I went to Liberia during the Ebola outbreak and I would cover infectious diseases. I I traveled a lot as a as a reporter, and I didn't really appreciate it at the time, but I could tell like their parents were doing something a little different than I saw here in the United States. But then I really, really started to notice this when I became a mom. And that happened 10 years ago. My little girl Rosie was born, and I was really struggling as a parent. Like I thought that I could like use science to parent, you know. Like I have a degree in physical chemistry. How hard could parenting be? You know? But it was like really hard, and I was really bad at it. And I started to, when I traveled, I started to see like, oh, like not all cultures struggle, like like I was struggling. And one one trip, I went down to a tiny uh village in the Yucatan in in Mexico and to this tiny Maya village, and the parents there just blew me away. They were so calm, so relaxed, so like not stressed out with five kids or more. And the kids were great, they were like respectful and kind and generous, but they were super, super helpful. And one morning I was talking to a mom Maria in her kitchen, and her 12-year-old wakes up, walks by us, and starts washing the dishes like completely voluntarily. And I was just like, What? Like, I've never seen that in California, you know? And um, and I asked the the young girl, like, why'd you do that? And she said, Well, because I love my mom. And I think that that was like kind of the moment where I was like, Okay, I want to learn how to parent like that. Like, there's something going on here that's really special and unique, and I want to learn it. And so I started studying parenting around the world, and I started to realize, oh, this way of parenting is really common, and you can find it like on every continent, and it's universal, and it's a way of raising kids that's based on cooperation instead of like conflict, and it it works so well. It works so well, and every little thing I tried in the United States back in San Francisco, like just transformed our lives, and so that's when I was like, okay, I have to I have to write a book about this.

SPEAKER_01

And it's a fantastic book, and I love how you take us around the world to different, completely different cultures from one another, and you really dive in and then you talk about what you did at home and what worked and what didn't. And I think what's so impressive about that book, besides your humility, which I uh is just so admirable, uh, it's so relatable as a parent who we we never feel like we have it all together, and we feel like we're the only one who's falling apart. But you you very openly say this worked, this didn't. But you translated all this into a modern Western culture, which is so impressive because I think sometimes we think here in the United States or in more developed worlds than some of the places you went, we you know, we were in a different world. But the reality is we're still parenting, we're still child rearing as the term used to be. What was probably your biggest aha moment that you had in your research for this book or even writing the book, either uh with your daughter or just in general, that I was like, wow, it's not it's not a huge cultural divide, it's it's kids at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00

You know, one of the things, and and you're exactly right, like this book and these techniques work so well because it's really about the parent-child relationship, right? And that you can move around, you know, it's not you can't be exact in different cultures, but you can kind of bring it. But I remember so one of the big uh takeaways in the beginning of Hunt Gather Parent is about really never shooing away your kid, even when they're really little, if they want to help, and really including them, you know, not in complex tasks, but very simple tasks of your work. And instead of like organizing your weekends and your your leisure time around your child, like going about your life and including them in it. And and I started doing this pretty early on, and this just transformed my life because I was like just basically I was like Rosie when she was like a toddler. I was like her executive assistant, you know. I was like scheduling like zoos and science museums and play dates, and I hated these things. I hated them. And I was, and then, you know, she would take a nap and I would be like cleaning the house, you know. So it's just like a constant. And after writing this book and researching, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this all wrong. Okay, forget these like child-centered activities that I hate and I don't want to do. We're gonna go hiking, we're gonna go to the beach, we're gonna do stuff that I want to do, and I'm gonna figure out a way to like include her. Maybe it's shorter, maybe we have to adjust. Um, and then when she takes a nap, I'm gonna rest, you know? Because also, like my chores around the house is more than enough entertainment for her. And including her in them is is more than enough than what she wants and needs as a human. In fact, I would argue she needs to like help me cook, help me clean, help me get stuff done more than she needs, like an iPad or you know, to go to some playroom and play with a bunch of three-year-olds, you know, like what kids need is involvement in the adult world. And when they have it, they start to behave better. You feel better because you're like doing stuff that makes you happy. And and parenting becomes much, much, much easier.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I think I was given two uh well, everyone volunteers advice when when they find out you're going to be a parent. Um, but the two that stuck with me, and I think your book encapsulates them well with uh a bunch more research and and data is the first one is you're raising adults, not kids. They already know how to be kids. It doesn't mean take the kid out of them. You still want them to be kids. No, um, but you don't have to teach them how to be kids. They got that down. And and that was the one thing that's really good. Just did really, really well. And then I I think the second one is your kids are being born into their world, you're not being born into theirs.

SPEAKER_00

And yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_01

And those are the two pieces of advice that you encapsulated so well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, if you look around the world, and as I traveled, we went to the Yucatan, we went to the Arctic with Inuits, and we went to Tanzania, but I've been like to many other places. Parents don't play with children, they don't enter the adult world. Like that, that's for the kids, right? Instead, exactly what you're saying. They they welcome the kid into the adult world slowly over time, teaching them exactly that to be productive and skillful and enjoy the adult world, right? And so we in America often just lead them in the child world and they never see the adult world. And I think it's one of the reasons why we have this mental health crisis we have is because for a kid to feel really good about themselves, they need to feel like they're learning to be an adult, right? They're learning to to contribute to society, to their family, and be productive. And we've kind of stripped that away from our kids, I think. And so I think I hope Hunk Other Parent and Dopamine Kids actually touches on this, helps parents like see, like, oh, getting kids into the adult world doesn't have to be hard and it doesn't have to be scary, and like it's pretty, it's pretty easy. It's actually less work than constantly being in the the child world, right?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And I I love I think that's a perfect transition to dopamine kids. And you talk about uh here, uh Rosie, uh your your daughter letting her go. You you were trying to to distract her from some of the magnets, uh, technology and watching on your computer, Netflix on your computer. And so you had her bike out there, and then she eventually said she wanted to go to the store or wherever it was by herself, and and you allowed her to do that. And I think, and were you in San Francisco at the time?

SPEAKER_00

No, that was actually we've moved, we live now in West Texas, but when we were in San Francisco, I was pretty loose with her. Like, I think she was like four, five, four. I let her like walk like two blocks to the store, to the market by herself and like buy something. I like had uh trained her to do it, like you know, helped her learn. Um and the guy knew her at the store. Like he knew and I talked to him, and she also had our German shepherd with us with her. So, like, um, but yeah, this was this was when we were in Texas when she was age eight, and this was like biking like a mile to the store, going into the store and like by herself and buying something. And yeah, like that was the big shift. It was like, look, if I'm gonna take away Netflix from her, which was like her major source of leisure, right? After dinner, um, I can't just leave her empty-handed. And I think this is a big mistake we make is this idea of like we just take the screen away and say, go, go be bored, right? Go figure it out. And behavioral psychology will tell us like, this just does not work, even with adults. Like, you've got to backfill this. And what I'm arguing in dopamine kids is we can backfill it with things that that activate the dopamine system, right? That get kids really excited and fulfill their needs as human. And so now we're like not only getting them off this thing that probably isn't so great for them in the long run, we're like filling them up with activities and hobbies that really make their life come alive and be colorful and really make make happy kids. And again, it's not a lot of work, it's it's really about finding a few activities that light up their eyes, you know, and get them excited, and then getting them started on it. And then kids want to do it by themselves, they don't want us involved in it. Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's so good. So let's let's talk about dopamine kids. And I'll be honest with you, I picked up the book for two reasons. One, because your first book was excellent. So I bought the second one. But the other one, a lot of my writing and research is surrounding technology and its impact on kids. And so I was all about, hey, dopamine is is the joy factor, it's the like button. And I've been guilty of saying that, right? They're getting their dopamine hits from being on social media. And you basically tell tell the reader that that might not be the the best narrative. Could you kind of walk us through that at a high level and and talk about really what is dopamine and what dopamine what the book is about?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so for about 50, 60 years, 60 years now, no, almost 70, 70 years. There's been this idea in in neuroscience that dopamine is the neurotransmitter that is involved in creating the feeling of pleasure, right? It's the pleasure center of the brain. And that's why we do things, right? Because it gives us pleasure. But over the past like 30 years or so, there's a massive amount of scientific evidence showing that this is really not the case at all. And it are and that instead, dopamine is what gives us the feeling of wanting and craving and desire. It's not like just like, oh, I kind of want to go talk to my mom or I kind of want to play video games. It's like I need to play video games. I need them right now, right? And it motivates us. It's our willingness to like work hard and persist. And that's important, that differentiation is important because dopamine can pull us to things that actually don't make us feel good and that can rob us of pleasure. Um, and especially nowadays, right? We have these products in our kids' lives, devices, apps, ultra-processed foods that are designed for overuse, right? Overconsumption. And they're designed to crank up our dopamine, but not our pleasure, which is a different part of the brain. And so we so social media is a good example, right? Like research shows that kids are on social media for one reason is to feel a sense of belonging, right? And connection. But over time, these these apps leave them feeling lonelier, and yet they still feel this pull to them and they still they still want to use them, right? And the the good news here is that the dopamine system is super flexible, like, especially with kids. We as parents can like take out the video games, take out social media, and put in like whatever we want. So we can actually train our kids' brains to reach for and want things that make them feel really good and that don't just light up their dopamine system, but also light up the pleasure center, which is distinct from this dopamine system.

SPEAKER_01

I love that, and I think that's so good. And I learned so much about things I thought were true about science that that weren't necessarily true, and and some of the, you know, just some of the things that are going on. And one of the other things I love, and this has been something I've always talked about, is the ultra-processed foods. And I think that just such a we we grew up with it when we were kids, but not to the extent that it exists today. And you talk about just how easy it is and how our bodies are naturally inclined to naturally get as many calories as quickly as possible, however possible. And you walk through some of the ultra-processed food, and that has been some of the harder habits for you to break in your family, it seems like. Could you just briefly talk about the foods, how that's evolved over time, why we are where we are now and the implications?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so this is something, you know, technology has come in really fast in our lives, like really the last 15 years, iPads, iPhones. But ultra-processed foods have been slower, and it's, you know, it's really got going like in the 80s. Um, but what I didn't realize is it's not just about sugar. Like we were really good at like reducing sugar and not having, you know, I'd read the label and be like, oh, sure, added sugar, don't buy it, right? But what I realized is that is actually not the most problematic foods. What is designed, intentionally designed to get kids to kind of snack all day are these really, really calorically dense like crackers and pretzels and pirates booty and snappies. So really dense, highly refined carbs that don't have like a lot of sugar in them, but there's the carbs are so refined that you your body treats it as sugar. And so these foods have like a calorie density that's like way higher than anything we saw as we evolved, right, as humans. And so our brain doesn't really know how to handle them. It's super high. Each bite gives like a super high amount of calories, and those calories come in really fast into your blood. And so what our family was doing was we were like having some of these crackers or breads for breakfast, right? And getting this kind of sugar rush. And then an hour or two later, you feel kind of cranky and hungry and kind of like, oh, I want another snack, and you just kind of snack on these crackers kind of all day. And it wasn't our fault. I mean, like a lot of these foods are recommended by pediatricians, right? Crack cheese and crackers. But then by the that by the time dinner came around, nobody wanted to eat like real food, you know, because we had kind of been like snacking all day. And so I I as a chemist, I was like, what could this matter, right? Like, what could like the the processing of the food affect like my appetite so much? But we we did a couple experiments and we actually eventually got rid of all ultra-processed food in our house. And for a month, I went out, went with totally without, and Rosie was really close. And Ryan, I have to tell you, it had transformed my diet, my my my life. Like I I it was for the first I for the first time in my life, I felt like I wasn't struggling to like maintain my weight, you know. Like I could just kind of eat whatever I wanted, um, as long as I didn't touch algebra's food. And I actually started feeling like satisfied between meals, and I just I had no clue how much these foods were affecting my my mood, but also like my hunger. Kind of like I was kind of hungry all the time and never kind of felt satisfied. And the the foods are absolutely designed to make make people and kids feel that way. There's a study that came out from Harvard a couple months ago that outlines how these foods do it. I think it's really sneaky because it is very subconscious. Um, but you can run the experiment. You can give your kids like a beautiful meal with like Whole Foods and minimally processed foods, and then put like an ultra-processed food on the table too, like corn chips or bread, like bread from the store, and then see what the kids eat. I like guarantee you, I've done this experiment so many times. You and your the adults too will eat all of the ultra-processed food first before they like touch anything else. And the reason for that is because our brains, like you said, evolved to eat the like most calories per bite that without without effort. Like, right, if my body can just process these calories really fast, why would I go and eat a carrot where I have to eat a ton of these carrots to get the same calories? But I also have my body has to like digest it to get those calories out, right? And so these foods are just really taking advantage of our brain that you know wants to take care of ourselves and survive and has never been exposed to these types of food or just this amount of it as well.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. You you share the story of the veggie straws at the pool, and I think that's a great story in the book. I'll I'll I'll leave the book to to tell the story for people to go buy that. But um, I I think it's a great story, and that was when it really clicked with me. It was that mental image I was like, yep, been there, done that with my kids. Um, so so loved love that story. Now, you talk about towards the end of Dopamine Kids a little bit about GLP ones and and the how that works in your body, right? And you talk about fiber and other things. And um now I'm nowhere near a scientist at all, and definitely not your level, but I'd love to hear uh almost stepping outside of your book, a lot of these processed foods have led to obesity and other you know weight issues in the United States, not just for kids, but for adults. Yeah. And and now we are supplementing with third-party means with things like GLP ones. Do you think that is this all because of marketing? Is this just because of our body's natural inclination to want the fast, easy food? Are we so overprogrammed that that's our natural desire? What do you think is shaping some of that?

SPEAKER_00

So I think what's really not discussed enough or and valued enough as a cause is that we eat because of food cues. Like this is something that the book touches on a lot of, but I think it's like we we think we kind of eat when we're hungry, right? Or and we choose food like, oh, I'm kind of craving this or I kind of want this, right? But actually, if you look at the data, like you eat because there's some cue in your environment telling you to eat, and it's telling you to eat a specific thing. And these cues are really powerful. Like, there's all these studies that show like how much you respond to these cues really determines your weight, right? And so in this ultra-processed food environment that we live in, people that are struggle with their weight, it's because they their brains naturally respond to these cues stronger, right? And and so I think our we're overweight because the food environment is designed to make us, these foods are designed to make us eat when we're not hungry, right? That's what these ultra-processed foods were doing to my family, but also override all the signals in your brain telling you to stop eating, right? And so you overeat. Um, and then you get into these cycles like I was talking about, where you've your blood sugar goes up, and um, and some of these like natural flavors in foods actually like mess with your blood sugar. I mean, there's just all these things. Um, and so it's like nobody's fault that we're overweight. I mean, it is like by design, right? But I think there's a lot of hope here because we eat because of these cues. So when I say a cue, I mean like the sight of a certain food, the box, the smell of food, even just the time of day and the place you're in. So if your kids snack in the car, like, or you snack in the car, like you know, the kid kids get in the car and that will trigger dopamine, that setting and that time, and it will say, ooh, I'm hungry. But even if you're not hungry, like physiologically, and though, and the kid will want to eat no matter what they've eaten that day, right? And so I think this actually gives parents a lot of power because it says, okay, I can set up my environment in my home, in my car, in our routine, so that these cues work in my favor, right? And so that the kid starts to actually want the cue triggers the desire for carrots, right? Or for hummus or beans. I'm a big bean fan, right? And and yes, we can't control the environment like way out outside of our home or in school, but we can do so much by just making a sanctuary, our home a sanctuary for these whole foods and minimally processed foods, so that kids can start to learn to love them. Because science also shows us that we start the foods we love are the ones we eat like regularly. Um, and so you can really shape your kids' preference for foods by by getting them to regularly eat in the same time and place the those foods. Um and so the food environment in our in America is toxic. I I I absolutely believe I have felt that myself. But I think we can before it gets, you know, the government does something, or I I I people always ask me that question well, shouldn't the government do something? And I was like, I'm like, okay, we can talk about that, but like we as parents can do so much. We have so so much power. And that that's about shaping what's what's in your home and just knowing that if those veggie straws are in your pantry, the kid's gonna eat them before they eat anything else, you know? And so. So why not build a space where they they learn, oh, you know, after school in my kitchen is time to eat some edamame beans, you know, or you know, like instead of like after school is time to eat granola ultra-processed granola bars, right? You can just, like I said, the dopamine system is really flexible and you can shape it. But you have to be aware that when these magnets, like devices or ultra-processed foods, are there, they're gonna have this strong pull over the kid and they're gonna take priority over the kid in the kid's life and and desires.

SPEAKER_01

That's so good. And I think both your books do a great job giving parents back the power that I think parents often feel feel powerless. I I just wrote an essay that talked about the loneliness of parenthood. And that's one of the biggest leading causes in parenthood. And you touch up on it a little bit in Hunt Gather Parent and just how it used to be a village, it used to be a community, and now we're we're doing it in isolation, but there is hope. So, what would you give to the parent listening that uh says, I can't take away screens? And I know you have some really practical ways to do that in in dopamine kids, so that they need to buy the book. We'll just make them do that. I'll I'll say it, you don't have to say it. But uh great tools in there and then links to resources, but the URL is in the book, so you have to get the book. But what are some practical things you could give to a parent right now on next steps?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, I think the first thing is to realize that the advice that's out there today is really outdated. It's based on some we talked a little bit, but there's other science that's like 25 years old, you know, and and it really doesn't work. It it causes just kind of constant struggle. Um, it makes our lives really hard and it makes it seem like it's too hard, right, to do. I think, and and I think we're kind of sold that myth a little bit too, because that is helping the tech industry, right? And the food industry. But uh once you kind of understand like the advice gets up to date, and a lot of this advice comes from the business world. Like the business world already knows all this stuff, right? And it just hasn't been in the parenting world. But once you get the right tools, it's actually not that hard. And the reason is is because you're gonna change the whole system, right? The whole, the, the whole your route, you're gonna set up your routine, your home in a way that makes it easy for your kid and for you. And you're not constantly policing these things because that's what we're doing now, right? We're constantly kind of manually pulling kids off screens, policing foods, and that's exhausting and doesn't work, clearly, because the data tell us tells us it doesn't work. And so with with Domin Kids, you I give you like basically five tools, five steps to slowly wean kids off screens and you decide how much you want. It's not about like totally getting rid of them, that's a fantasy, right? But about but but about really figuring out what you want for your family, which type of devices, what's on them, and understanding that you do need to make time and spaces in your life where it's just not an option. And the kid knows that, and their brain will quickly learn. Like, so for instance, we started not having any screens after dinner so that we could all wind down, including myself, and quickly, and we replaced it with the biking and audiobooks and crocheting and all these things.

SPEAKER_01

And the audio books were on a CD, right? You got a CD player? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00

We did get a CD player, yes. We we we started with a Google device, like the exec, you know, Siri or whatever, and then we started hating it so much. I was like, I was like, so we did get a CD, and yeah, she listens to them on CDs, and yeah, it's really she likes it. But you know, very quickly, I'm talking about like a week, like it's not hard, especially the younger kids. Her brain learned, like, after dinner, it's time for being outside, you know. And but you know, I got rid of them. I like hid them in the dryer. Like I was like, I was like, she is not gonna be able to find them, and that's what you have to do. It's like a smoker on a plane, right? Like event quickly, their brains learn, like, I don't smoke on a plane, and they stop wanting it. Quickly, the kid learned, like, oh, I don't have this option, so I have all these other things I can do. And then the dopamine starts working in your favor, right, as the parent instead of it in the device's favor.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. Now, one of the things I always love to end with is looking at the future and and looking at the generations through futurist lunge. You said you're Gen X, I'm millennial, our kids are all Gen Alpha. So, what is your hope? Looking at Gen Alpha and Gen Beta being born right now, what is your hope as they have many years till parenthood, probably another decade and some change? What is your hope for the future that hopefully this uh generation of parents, Gen X, uh millennials and Gen Z can impart to their kids to make the world a better place?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I think I really have hope because I think Gen Alpha and Gen Z too is really gonna start to appreciate that activities offline, Whole Foods, cooking, um, is isn't about depriving us of pleasure, but brings back pleasure into life. And I talked to Gen Gen Zers who tell me this. Like, once I got off social media, like, oh my gosh, my life got so much better and brighter, my mood. And I think I think they're gonna impass that wisdom onto their kids, right? One of one a Gen Zer that bought that read Domin Kids told me after she read it, she went on a week-long trip to Colorado without her phone. I was like, whoa, like the book doesn't tell you to do that. But she was so inspired, and she was like, my brain feels so free and like was so pleasurable. And like, that's what my hope is is like as AI come, you know, get becomes a bigger part of our lives and more and more devices and become more and more part of our lives. I think, I think the people are gonna start to value and really fall back in love with some of the stuff that's not online, right? That's not on devices, and it doesn't have to be all the time, but it's a it's really about making a space for it. Like I call them sanctuaries, right? Where it's a protection to keep this stuff from coming because they're the data are clear that over time the pleasure goes down with a lot of these activities, but the wanting goes up. And now you're kind of in a trap, right? And um, and so I think kids and parents are gonna start to understand how to prevent that trap, how to feel that trap, and what to do about it. And I really hope Dopeing Kids is like a manual, an operating manual for that.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. And I do think it's a great manual for those hung together parent. I think there's a lot of hope for the future generations and great resources that are just practical and accessible, but well researched. Um it's not all woo-woo and made up. It's well researched, well documented, but also human. And I so appreciate that because in a world that's becoming less and less human, I appreciate your writing and what you're doing. So, how can people learn more about your books and about you and get in touch or connect with you?

SPEAKER_00

So I'm not on social media because my brain can't handle it. But um I you can I have a website I I set up and you can email me there and I read everything and I I try to get back to them, get back to everybody. So I really want to interact with people kind of more personally. Yeah, and I'm I've been thinking toying with the idea of giving some like coaching or some classes, so that might come about. But I have a little newsletter emailing list, so if you sign up for that, then I can let you know when that comes about. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Michaeline, thank you so much for your time. For all the listeners, go check out Hunt, Gather, Parent, uh, and Dopey Ming Kids. They're available wherever books are sold. We both uh highly recommend them. I will do uh separate book reviews on on those, but I highly recommend them here, so I I would encourage you guys to go check that out. Michaeline, thanks so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you for having me. It was it was a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for tuning in to the The Ryan Vet Show.

SPEAKER_00

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Ryan Vet

Host
Contributor

Michaeleen Doucleff

Guest