Ditch the Billable Hour: How to Price Value, Not Time with Shaun Jardine

Value-based pricing gives law firms a way out of the billable hour and into pricing that reflects outcomes, not time. Shaun Jardine breaks down how solo attorneys and small firm owners can offer clients gold, silver, and bronze service levels, run a successful pricing pilot, and grow profitability without padding timesheets.

Shaun Jardine is the founder of Big Yellow Penguin and former CEO of a Top 250 UK law firm, with over 35 years in the legal profession. He wrote Ditch the Billable Hour, a 400-page guide to value-based pricing, and the follow-up Ditch & Switch, which lays out 50 real-world pricing examples across private client and commercial work. He created the 8-P Point Plan, a framework that helps firms move from time-based billing to value-based pricing.

What you'll learn:

- Price outcomes and value instead of hours and inputs

- Offer clients three service levels at three price points

- Run a value-based pricing pilot one lawyer at a time

- Build a pioneer group of willing lawyers, not skeptics

- Give fixed prices in litigation using the concentric circles method

- Chunk litigation work into yes work, likely work, and next stages

- Ask clients what service level they expect before you price

- Turn away unprofitable, difficult clients to free up capacity

- Document a pricing policy every new hire learns on day one

- Run after-action reviews when a fixed price misses the mark

- Understand why clients rank lower price 14th, not 1st

- Apply Kotter change management to win over resistant lawyers

Chapters:

00:00 Welcome and Shaun's path to value-based pricing

03:53 How to run a pricing pilot and offer three service levels

08:22 Handling case variability and turning away bad work

13:00 Fixed pricing in litigation and creative fee models

21:44 The 8-P Point Plan and getting lawyers to buy in

28:00 What the most profitable firms do differently

Connect with Shaun Jardine:

Email: shaun@bigyellowpenguin.co.uk

Website: bigyellowpenguin.co.uk

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shaunjardine

Books: Ditch the Billable Hour and Ditch & Switch (available on Amazon)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Law Labs, where a law firm life gets a glow up. I'm Billy Taraschio, founder of Modern Law, and every week we crack open what it really takes to run, grow, and scale a law firm inside the age of AI and innovation. This is where firm owners, legal rebels, and business minds come to swap ideas, share wins, and messes, and rethink what's possible in the profession. If you're ready to lead smarter, scale faster, and build a firm that actually works for you and your clients, you're in the right place. Let's get to it. Hello and welcome to the Modern Arizona Podcast Law Labs Edition. I'm your host, Billy Terrazio, attorney here in Arizona, joined by Sean Jardine, the king, the legend, the advocate for value-based billing. He's here to rail against the billable hour and has been implementing value-based pricing for 25 years? Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Oh, I wish. No, 2017 was uh when I I came over to America and first got the bug. So since 2017.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Since 2017. And how many firms have you helped implement value-based billing at this time?

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Great question. Actually, I looked up on my um accounts package the other day to see how many people had actually paid me money. And it was 88. So 88 have actually paid me money. I would suspect that if you took into account the webinars and the conferences and stuff like that, thousands have heard me talk, but only 88 have actually paid me money to put it into effect.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And what did what did happen in 2017 that really gave you this bug?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Well, I I read a book pre-2017 called by a Canadian, Mitch Kalowski. It's called Um Avoiding Extinction, Reimagining Legal Services in the 21st Century. And Mitch is a great character. He's a lawyer, he had a law firm, and he wrote a very pithy novel about what a law firm, and it was written in 2012, what a law firm would look like if lawyers used the then available technology and how it would work. And in that book, it made reference to another American, a guy called Patrick Lann, who was doing things with value-based pricing. So there's a little footnote in the book, and I thought, oh, this sounds interesting. I and I started researching value-based pricing. What is this? Because I quite like the idea of not uh doing timesheets, and I quite like the idea of charging clients for the value we create. And eventually I came, I came across a guy in Australia called John Chisholm, and John and I became friends, and John nagged me and said, Look, Sean, if you are serious about this, you've got to come to America because there's a meeting in America in Allen, Texas, outside of Dallas. And uh Ron Baker, who is uh uh the uh the guru of value-based pricing, he's an accountant, written eight books on the subject, he's doing a week-long conference. So I went and I went there, and there are a hundred lawyers and CPAs in the room. I was the only Brit. And I ke I got I kept in touch with all these lawyers saying, you know, for years, badgering them, what do you do about this? How do you do that? How do you document this? What do you do when your accounts people say, how do we measure our work in progress if we haven't got any time, etc., etc. Um, and then in the end, uh I I was elected CEO of our law firm. Uh it was a three-year term that lasted four years, nine months, eleven days, not that I was counting or anything like that. And during that period, I was able to uh introduce a valley-based pricing project pilot. And I did that with some teams, and it went really well, and I really enjoyed it. And I then uh a couple of years later turned 60. I know I who with it? This is all Botox. And I'm I I turned 60 and thought, do you know what? I I've been at the firm 25 years, I really enjoyed my time, but I really enjoyed working with lawyers and encouraging them to do value-based pricing. So that's how I set up the big yellow penguin.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Love it. Okay. So let's say that the lawyers that are listening to this podcast are all in. They're like, yes, I want to do it, but how? How do I run a successful pilot?

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Okay. The answer is you do it one lawyer at a time, one masher at a time. But what you've got to do is get your head around the fact that what we're not doing anymore is pricing inputs, the time that it takes us to do something. We're gonna try and price the outcomes, the value we create. And what we're also gonna do is give our clients three service level three service levels. Think of gold, silver, bronze, don't call it that. Good, better, best. I call my proposals mega midi mini or whatever it's gonna be. Give three choices. And each service level has uh it has a different package in the same way that when we get a plane, a plane ticket. If you turn left and you go to first class, you know you're gonna get smoked salmon blinis and you'll get offered champagne. You turn right and go to the end of economy, you know it's gonna be half an hour before you see a drink straw. And uh what we do is we offer our clients a service with different service levels and different price points. And some lawyers will say, can't be done. Can't be done in my work type, uh, Sean. And that's the reason why I wrote my second book, which is called Ditch Switch, which all it is is 50 case studies of you know, 50, 20 private client ones, 30 commercial ones, to say, look, here's gold, silver, bronze. You can see it in in effect in in real life, so don't tell me you can't do this stuff. But you've got to actually start thinking what is the value we're gonna create for our clients and then have a conversation with them up front. How do you want to work with me? What does good look like to you? What level of response are you expecting? Are you wanting a partner to deal with this matter or can it be dealt with by a more junior lawyer? And if someone says, Well, I'm not bothered, that's fine. We know that there's another option we can give them. If they say, I only want partner-led work, that's fine. I'm going to price it as partner-led work then. And once you start giving clients a choice and a demonstrable choice, guess what? They like having control over the budget. It's a fixed price, by the way, but they choose. You put the pen in their hand. And who doesn't like choice in their own lives? When we go out for dinner, we choose. Well, we choose the wine list, we choose what car we drive, we choose what clothes we wear. And lots of people will say, oh, you know, the clients are always going to go for the cheapest. No, they're not. I did some work for a firm in Lithuania in Eastern Europe. And uh I went out there and did a trading course for them. They're and their tax partner, and you can stick my knowledge of Lithuanian tax down a frog's ear, okay? So it the tax partner is on record on LinkedIn saying, short, I've been doing this, and most of my clients go for the gold option. He's making more money. His clients are happier with the outcome. But clients didn't clients will never know you offer a gold option until you write it down and show them. And your gold option can be all kinds of factors. And something I talk about in my book is something where we do possibility thinking. What could we possibly offer as a gold option for clients that will um that will help the client understand what we what we could do for them? And you you brainstorm those, you come up with options. You think of residential conveyancing. I'm doing a project at the moment for a a big UK law firm who have lots of residential conveyances. We've come up with over 57 gold features for a residential conveyancing transaction. Wow. You then think of strip out 20 of those, you've got a silver. Strip out 35, you've got a bronze. So each of those options, gold, silver, bronze, will get the client what they want, a successful conveyancing transaction, but how they get it will be different. It's how they get well.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I'm a divorce attorney. We've currently got 450 clients, and some divorces are $5,000 and other divorces are $150,000. How do you manage that type of variability?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Because, well, you the thing is well, you can manage the variability depending on how you price the client. Because all clients are not the same. You will have some clients who are a joy to work with that you will say, actually, if we if we need to work out what if you let's assume you're acting for the wife, we need to work out what the uh the the husband's pension plan might look like. Can you supply any documents? And then you get someone who will come up with a chronological paginated bundle with uh with uh everything in apple pie order, and they will deliver that to you. Another client might come along with uh a carrier bag and a shoebox full of documents and say, Can you sort that out? You don't treat them the same, you don't price them the same. But what you do do up front is say to the client, what service level are you expecting? How are you want to be really hands-on involved in this and do some of the legwork? It will save you money if you do, or do you want me to do everything? And sometimes clients will say, do everything. I haven't got the bandwidth to deal with it. And that's absolutely fine, but then I'm going to price it to do everything, but I'm not, if you're a 5,000 plow client, going to do everything for you because you're you're at the lower end of the pricing spectrum there. And it's again, one of the the big transaction transitions that lawyers have to have is we don't need every bit of work that comes through the front door.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

We need more than our fair share of the good stuff. And that means we've got to be prepared to turn work away. And then we can actually free up time so that we can spend more time with the clients, A, who uh value it, and B are prepared to pay for it because we're providing that extra hands-on service. And it's perfectly okay to say to clients, I'm not the most expensive, but I'm also not the cheapest. And if if people come to you, Billy, because they've been recommended that you are a really, really great divorce attorney, you need Billy, all your clients say, go and see Billy, they're pre-sold by the time they get to you. All you've got to do is work out, are you a right fit for me and my business? And if a client is saying to you, Billy, I really need you to do an ex uh an injunction for me very quickly, but you're about to go on holiday, you're either going to say, No, I can't do that, or yes, I will drop everything and do everything for you now, but the price is $50,000 or whatever it might be. Uh uh, not the not the normal rate. And clients will understand and respect that if they want to if they want you to act for them. And when we think about it, you how many cases did you say you you've got 450 cases? Right, you've got 450 cases at the firm. And of those cases, you probably couldn't say which the most important is, but the client will tell you that their most important case is theirs. Right. So what and that's the one that when uh uh there's a great report by Lexis Nexus called the Riddle of Perception. It came out in 2016. It's still available on Google if you Google Lexus Nexus Riddle of Perception. And they did a survey of lots of uh clients saying, What is the most important? 14 features, what is the most important thing to you as the client when engaging with a lawyer? The most important thing, the most important feature was I want a lawyer who understands my needs, my case. Lower price than others was number 14. Okay? And so if we start thinking that not everybody is the same, not everybody buys the same, and we start crafting our options to clients to offer them a choice, they will go for it.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

And lots of litigation lawyers will say to me, Oh, but Sean, how do you give a fixed price when you don't know what's gonna happen? It can't be done in litigation.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Well, I was a commercial litigation lawyer. Guess what? It can. And the answer I used to do lots of property work uh and property disputes. So if a client came to me and said, Sean, can you I've got a boundary dispute, a dispute with you with my neighbor, can you, Sean, give me a fixed price to do a letter before action to my neighbour? And can you give me a fixed price now? I'll say, yes, I can, because I'm an expert in property disputes. I've done thousands of them. I know I can do that letter. I've done thousands of them in my career. I can give you a fixed price for that because that is yes work. I know exactly how to do that. And then thinking this is concentric circles. Drop a pebble in the pond, we're in concentric circles. The next yes work is bang in the middle of the uh of the circle. The next ring out is likely work. What is likely to happen when that letter is crafted and drafted and sent? I'll tell you, there's three things that are likely to happen. One, we hear nothing, we're ignored, so we've got to chase them. Two, we get a vitriolic letter or telephone call from the next door neighbor themselves. Or three, we get a vitriolic telephone call or letter from the neighbor's lawyer. That is likely to happen. And because I'm an expert, I can give a fixed price for the likely work. What happens after that, I don't know on day one, because I don't know what the vitriolic call from the lawyer is gonna say. But when we get to that ring, and I've had the call from the lawyer, I can now give you another fixed price for doing the next bit of work. So you chunk it down into stages so that when a client comes to you and says, Well, how much is this gonna cost? I can say for the yes work and the likely work, it's gonna cost you X. When we have a response from your neighbor or the lawyer, I can then give you another fixed price. And that that for lots of clients is great, okay, I can go with that because I don't know what they're gonna do either. And that's how you do litigation with this kind of thing. And couple with the fact that, you know, if you're an experienced lawyer, you j you you you've dealt with lots and lots of cases, you've got a good idea of how things are gonna pan out. Um but what if you if I give you a fixed price of £10,000 for doing something and I carry on time recording, and some some firms do, some of my clients do carry on time recording, and you get to £12,000, what is the one thing you don't do? You don't ask the client for the extra £2,000 because you, as the lawyer, got your budgeting wrong. You what you do do is do an after-action review, say, well, what what led us to think that was a 10 grand matter, learn from it, document it, and next time when a similar matter comes in, we start asking for $13,000 or something.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah. So um I want to ask you, there's a there's a bunch of different interesting models. One that I heard of recently is a firm that is offering flat fee divorces, and let's say the price is $45,000 and they will collect a third upfront, $15 now, and then they would break the $30,000 into monthly payments over the next 11 months. And then if the case settles and it's done quickly, then they just you're done at that point. You don't have to pay any more of those payments. You don't get to the $45,000. What do you think of that concept?

SPEAKER_03 15:54

That's fine because you create you create that as an option for a client, and the client might say, Well, that's good because I'm 15,000 pounds in on day one or fifty thousand dollars in on day one, and I've got three monthly payments, it settles. Great. Now, for the lawyer, that still might be uber profitable because you had a third of it up front. You've done you had uh three monthly payments, and we're still making money. The answer is let's create, let's be creative about crafting options, suppliers, because that might w work great all the time. It might be that you say to a client, well, I'll give you a fixed price for this, and it's 40,000 all in. Pay me that on day one, and I will do whatever it takes to get this for over the line for you. And it might settle the next day. Now, you you depends how much skin lawyers want to have in the game or and how how much they believe in their ability to settle matters. But I remember going back, oh, probably 15, 20 years ago, I had a client who was being taken to an employment tribunal by one of their staff. He was the managing director, and he said to me, Sean, this is a nightmare. I've had one of these before. I'll give you 10,000 pounds if you can make this go away. I looked at the claim, I wasn't an employment lawyer, I looked at the claim, thought it didn't quite ring true, gave it to my employment partner, said, Is it just me or is this claim rubbish? He said, No, Sean, it's rubbish. I said, Oh, David, I said, would you mind ringing up their lawyer, just telling him it's rubbish, and if they carry on with this, we're gonna, you know, have their head on a stick or something like that. And uh he said, David said, sure, fine. Rang up the other lawyer, told him this claim is rubbish. They withdrew it. I sent the client a bill for £10,000. Client was over the moon. I bet. We settled it. One call, one email, one conversation. And because for him, the value is I've bought I've brought my life back that I was going to put on hold to deal with a spurious claim. And this is what we've got to start putting ourselves in, where we price outcomes and we think what is it that are you as a matrimonial lawyer, what is it you create for your clients? What are your clients buying from you? And the answer is they're not buying your ability to fill in forms, draft briefs, and lodge them with courts. What they're buying from you is, I want a new life, Billy. I'm involved in a relationship that has sadly come to an end. I want to provide for my kids. Of course I do, but I want to start a new life. I've got someone else, a new partner that I want to live with. I I want from you, Billy, what I want you to provide me for is that new future for me. That's what I'm paying $45,000 for. Not the forms. All of that is inputs. I don't care about that. And it's the same when people do wills. Why do people buy a will? They only buy a will because they want the peace of mind knowing I provided for the my kids and my family, it's all taken care of, I've minimized my tax liability and and I've done a job that is I should have done years ago, but I've done it now and I can sleep better at night. Because I guarantee, if we've got any private client lawyers listening to this, no one has ever thought that a will that has been drafted, once they've signed it, no one has ever thought that will was so good, I will get it out and read it again. And nobody has ever thought I will take that will down to the bar and say, Billy, have a read of this will. It's a belter. No one does that. We go through it because we want the bit we want to say, oh, I've done that job. Yeah. You know, and I want a piece of Bible. And that's that's what we price. Okay. So that's what we've got to start pricing.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

I'm a believer. I'm a believer. So if somebody's a believer, now it's much harder to get my 20 lawyers to be believers because different lawyers have different risk tolerances, right? Yeah. And and um and you know, we're uh change is hard.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Absolutely. Especially with lawyers.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Say it again.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Especially with lawyers.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah, change is hard. Change is hard, and we like certainty. Um, and so we've got some things against us as an industry. But so if I am saying I want to do an experiment, then what you would suggest is that I experiment on my own clients myself, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:15

I would what I would do, and the the the my first book, Ditch the Biddleball Hour, has an eight, what I call an eight P point plan. And what that plan is, that is an absolute rip-off of John Cotter from the Harvard Business School. I mentioned it in the introduction, and um I've told John that I am ripping off his change management methodology because that's why he created it. But John Cotter identified eight steps. And there's a great book that I would encourage you and all your lawyers to read if you're thinking of doing this. It's called Our Iceberg is melting. And it's a book about penguins. If the penguins don't find a new iceberg, the iceberg they're on is going to explode and all the colony is gonna die. All the baby penguins are gonna drown. So we've got to and so this is why I have a I I talk about penguins, I talk about change management, the penguin is a metaphor for change. And the first, so you have this eight peak point plan cotter methodology, reams and reams of books have been written about this. It is brilliant, and the cotter's materials are fantastic. Um, so you what you do, first of all, you've got to have a reason. What is my reason for wanting to do this? The paradigm shift. And that could be AI is doing things faster. If I'm charging by the billable hour, um, how I will be losing money by using Microsoft Copilot, and all these things are being done so much quicker. So that might be the motivation. It might be I just want to offer my clients free choices, not have it linked to time. But that that's my reason. My P1 is paradigm. I'm then going to create a pioneer group. And you can ask 20 lawyers saying, look, we're going to do a pilot project. Any volunteers for people who want to be enthusiastic about. This. You will have a a lawyer who is not ready to do this, hates the idea of it. Go and get them in the pilot group. We'll have to take on board their views as we go along, but not as the pilot group. We then prepare a plan. We then permit our pioneer penguins to challenge the way we are doing things internally. Because, and it can't be career limiting them for them to challenge, but they might say, I think this the way we do this is really crazy. Why do we do this? And they will so we permit them to do that. We create prizes for short-term wins because once we start offering this to clients and once we start getting success, we start promoting this success in our organization. And then lawyers being lawyers get competitive. And once you find that, let's say if you're doing a prenuptial agreement, okay, so you start a standard document that I'm sure you and your colleagues have done thousands of. Okay? But if all of a sudden someone is now starting making price points and offerings to clients for prenup agreements, and they start getting an extra 2,000, extra 3,000, extra 4,000, suddenly start thinking, well, how are you doing that, Billy? Because I think I'm a good as good a lawyer as if I might think I'm a better lawyer than you, Billy. Why are you getting more than me? And the answer is because you're asking for it, because you're presenting options to clients, because you're giving them choice, you're not treating all clients as the same and all matters as the same. And then then you can find that it becomes a little bit of a flywheel. It starts creating its own energy, there gets a little bit of competition going, and you will find your lawyers start acting for clients who value what they do. So they're they're they're happier. They're not having to do, you know, I'm not you don't have to get rid of time cheeks straight away, but they're not what they do isn't dictated by time, it's dictated by value. The clients are happier because they're their lawyers really responsive and will spend more time dealing with them. And the owners of law firms are happier because they make more money. And the one firm I acted for, their brief was, Sean, increase our profitability. We want to sell to a PLC that was buying up law firms in the UK. And I worked with the uh uh team of 20 of them. One of them was an employment lawyer, and a client came to to him and said, We need new contracts of employment and staff handbooks. And we said, Okay, we'll give you three prices. And the three prices we gave were we will send you the Lexus Nexus precedents. You fill them in, we'll check your homework, £2,000. We will do it for you in three weeks' time, £5,000. We will do it for you tomorrow, £8,000. The client chose the £8,000 option. They couldn't believe their lawyer would be so responsive to do it tomorrow, and for them, £8,000 are pay. They knew they could get it cheaper. We had told them in the same breath. Was the lawyer happy? Yes, I'm gonna earn half my monthly target tomorrow on one day. Were the equity partner owners of that firm happy? I really hope so, because hello, we are earning more money from that lawyer doing that job. And that's the that's the thing. And I did a uh a survey, oh, probably two, three years ago, and it was the question was if you made no change at all to the way you do things in your business, what would happen to profitability over the next three years? Some respondents said, Will profitability go down? Some said it'd be about the same. Some said it'd grow by five, five percent, some said it'd grow by ten percent and more, and some said it'll grow by 30% by changing nothing. Begs the question. So we ask the question, what do you do then? And we found that the thing percent pluses, as I called them, the firms that are growing by 10% plus, all had pricing policies. They all had it written down. And when a new staff joined their team, they said, This is how we price around here. This is how we do it. Don't bring your bad habits in from your ultra. This is what we do here. So a pricing policy. They had a strong management team who would lead this project. They, uh 62% of them, allowed their staff to raise their hands and say, this client is unprofitable and difficult to deal with, we shouldn't act for them. And they would take that on board so that bad clients would be pushed down the road to our competition to the competition. That's a great place for your bad clients to go. Go and let your competition play with them. Uh, and they uh 72% of them, I think it was, did not price by the hour. And over 80% of them asked clients at the beginning of the retainer, what service level are you expecting from us? Because if you want a bronze service, that's absolutely fine. But don't expect a gold service for a bronze price. If you want a gold service, that's fine. I will really deliver that, but you will pay a premium for that. And that's what they were doing. And once you start, you know, a lot of what I do really is taking those five, six points and just actually getting clients to document what we do. Because when I work with law firms, I survey all the staff anonymously. The data comes to me, not to the law firm. And usually 47 questions in the survey, one of which is when a new starter joins your team, how is the pricing induction undertaken? Most common answer is it isn't. There isn't one. How are your prices set at your firm? We don't know. How are prices reviewed at your firm? No, we don't know. Where are where are your pricing policies documented? We haven't got any, don't know. Well, hello, this is not rocket science on the day that your uh rocket is about to be launched into space, but uh on on the uh it's not rocket science to actually address some of these matters and start actually implementing that in our firms. And one of the questions is does your firm make you act for clients who are unprofitable and difficult to deal with? It the answer is always I get a percentage of yeses, always yeses. The lowest percentage of yeses I've had is 50% of the staff. The highest percentage of yeses, 100% of the staff who responded. What's it like? I saw I saw you with Slayer. What's it like at that firm? Yeah. I'm we're being made to act for people who are awful. I suspect there's quite a lot of turnover of staff in that firm because we're being told we've got to act for people who are unprofitable and difficult to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

All right. So let's say lawyers are listening to this, law firm owners are listening to this. They're like, I know I need to make a change. I want to work with Sean. What do they do?

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Well, yeah, what you can do, you can download from my website uh uh it's called a RACI, R-A-C-I template, responsible, accountable, consulted, and informed. It's a template that shows you the how you implement this. It's it's in the back of my book, but you can download a PDF of that from my website. But these I've I've got lots of materials in my know-how section. You know, I I I love working with law firms. I'm off to Australia in 14 days' time to work with some law firms out there. I've had one American lawyer come. I I I live in the center of the uh the country in the Cotswolds in in England, and I'll have one American lawyer come and live in my village for four days so that we work together every day, going through all these problems and setting something up. So I look, if somebody wants to work with me, somebody needs some help, drop me a line, bigyellowpenguard.co.uk, have a look on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to have chats with anybody about this. And if I can help people, then so much the better. Because Billy, life is so much better when you're not wedded to the billable hour. I can tell you, yesterday in Australia, a lawyer was sanctioned for billing 30 hours a day. Oh, yes, precisely.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Can't be doing that.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Yeah, yeah. And it was true. So, you know, clients know that, you know, lawyers pad timesheets. Lawyers know that sub lawyers pad timesheets. It's not a great way to be. And the fact is, if I give you three price points and it's not linked to time, and you choose it, you choose the one that you want. We will never fall out over fees because if you've chosen the $10,000 option and I bill you $10,000, all you're gonna do is tell my tell your friends Sean is a great bloke. He came in on budget, on time, and did exactly what he said he would for $10,000.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Wonderful. Um, what's the name of the book? If people want to buy your book on Amazon?

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Ditch the Bellable Hour is the first one. It has a yellow cover with a penguin on front. And the second one is called Ditch and Switch. It's a blue cover with a penguin on the front. That also is available on the Kindle, but the first one isn't.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I have really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

I've loved it. And good luck with everything you do. And as I say, if anybody's got any problems, get in touch with me. There's only me and a penguin sitting here in this office. So I uh I I need to get out more I know, but I'm more than happy to have a chat with anybody.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

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