Men’s Mental Health: Why Men Hide Their Emotions & The Cost of Silence

Society often tells men to “man up.”

Be strong.

Be stoic.

Solve problems.

But never talk about your own.

In this episode of Ella Podcasts, we explore the hidden emotional struggles many men face — and why expressing vulnerability is still widely seen as weakness.

From childhood, boys are taught to suppress emotions.

Crying is mocked.

Sensitivity is ridiculed.

And by adulthood, many men have learned to bottle up stress, anger, loneliness, and burnout.

Yet despite the perception that men are privileged in society, they also lead in troubling statistics including suicide rates, addiction, homelessness, and workplace fatalities.

So what’s really going on? Joining me to unpack this complex and often overlooked topic are:

Dr. Jonathan Marshall – Psychologist and former professor Ina Hammer – Men’s emotional health and wellbeing coach Samir Kothari – Investment fund manager sharing personal perspectives

Together we discuss:

• Why male emotional expression is often discouraged from childhood

• The cultural expectation that men must be stoic problem-solvers

• Why men are socially allowed only anger and lust as emotions

• The stigma men face when expressing vulnerability

• Why male emotional openness is encouraged socially — but often penalised in dating and leadership

• The contradiction between what society says it wants from men and what it actually rewards

• Why men often suffer in silence until serious health consequences appear

This episode explores a question that deserves far more attention: What happens when half the population feels unable to express their emotional pain?

 KEY TAKEAWAYS

 Boys are often socialised from childhood to suppress emotional vulnerability Male emotional expression is frequently ridiculed by both men and women Society rewards men for strength and control but punishes emotional openness Many men feel pressure to be providers and problem-solvers, not emotional communicators Men are often socially allowed only anger and lust as emotional outlets Emotional repression contributes to serious mental health challenges for men Honest conversations about men’s emotional wellbeing are long overdue

 Don’t forget to subscribe to our channel for more conversations about careers, relationships, mental health and modern life.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Hi, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. Men expressing their emotional issues, such as feeling under pressure, overwhelmed, or stuck, is seen as weak, flaky, self-indulgent, and unmanly. Instead, society dictates that they have to man up, push their emotions down, and present an image of control, strength, and confidence as unquiet resolve. Men are here to solve problems in business and in the family, but not to share their own problems. As a result, men are bottling up their stress, frustration, anger, silence, and burnout. As a little girl, it was very clear that being born male was seen as superior to being born female, and that men were naturally privileged. Yet if that's true, why are males leading into suicide, addiction, homelessness, and workplace death statistics? Here to explore this extremely neglected topic are Dr. Jonathan Marshall, a leading psychologist and a former professor. He's a Stanford and Harvard University graduate. He offers perspective and practical advice to help men and women cope better and thrive. We've also got here today Inna Hammer. She's a men's emotional health and well-being coach. She helps men discuss their problems, such as divorce, recovery, relationships, confidence, and loneliness. They talk through what's really going on, the things men often keep to themselves to achieve practical change. Thank you for being here all the way from Dubai in a Thank you for having me. And we've also got Samir Kothari here. He works as a fund manager for an Italian investment fund. He hails from Texas and has a Masters of Science degree from the University of Houston. Samir is a great sport and is sharing his personal experiences with us today. So thank you, Samir, for being that brave. Okay, so let's look at our first question. Why is female emotional expression seen as a healthy outlet? But for men, it's seen as unmanly and weak.

SPEAKER_06 2:24

Boys are steered towards competition and doing things. As children, they then are given trucks and GI Joe's and knives. And girls are steered towards things that focus more on tending and befriending. So from very early on, from before children are verbal, we're already steering them one way or another. It's politically kind of incorrect now to point to the research that suggests there might be a lot more to it. Conceivably, we are evolved for men to focus more on protection and providing, and for women to to focus on tending and befriending. But there is research to have to say that. So I don't know why people find that politically incorrect, but it's there. And so I think from a very early age, where cult where the culture encourages this divide, and maybe there is some biological basis to it as well.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

That's interesting. And Ina who taught men that showing their emotions is a liability? How has society created male emotional control, Ina?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Well, I actually think it's probably more men teaching men, or men teaching boys, uh traditionally. I've had men saying to me that their uh fathers used to say to them, don't cry like a girl, and you know, all of this uh whilst growing up. And uh and I think also men often um if someone shows emotions that then other guys they get they they they take the Mickey out of them or they you know they it's just not acceptable in a way and they so they're taught that you know they they open themselves to really cool if uh if they're open about their emotions and that's that stiff up a little mentality. And yeah, it's it's it's very sad. Yeah, they're just taught that it's just not cool to cry, and you know, while the girls can. Um but I I don't think it's necessarily like the mothers who do that to uh to their kids. I think it's more boys other boys and other men doing it to each other, really. And it's a pass through the generation.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

Yeah, this is how boys are expected to behave.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

So why is male vulnerability now more acceptable than ever, um, but still rejected in dating sex and power dynamics?

SPEAKER_06 4:45

I think we we were very uh happy when CEOs and uh you know members of the C-suite, particularly men, uh, came forward and said how they were stressed, you know, how they sought therapy or they had needs. And we were like, wow, that was amazing and and expected this to bring a real change in society, and maybe it did to some extent. But the research shows we still penalize them and we prefer men who fit the stereotype, that in a dating relationship that women report that I want a man that fits more of the cookie-cutter mould and not someone who expresses uh weakness. And so how you express emotions without expressing weakness is tough. My my sense is like women have clearly been oppressed when it comes to power, you know, finances and career. But men have been oppressed emotionally. Men are basically allowed two emotions uh anger and and and uh and they're allowed anger and and lust. Women are also allowed things like fear and sadness. But if a man moves into fear and sadness, he's penalized socially by other men, and also like you know, to have your girlfriend say, Oh, you're such a sissy, is like, oh, you know, that that's that's such a damning one.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

And I think many women are guilty of that. Many women are guilty of that. Like Inna said, we're all looking for that manly man, he's got to be the alpha male, take charge, look after me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah, I think the struggle with this that uh these days that women they they say they want an emotionally available man and some a man with emotional intelligence, but that's not what they go for.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

It's a different podcast on on female women not knowing what they want, actually, right? Oh, is it? Yeah, that's another topic. Yeah, no problem. Say one thing to another. Yeah, we'll come back to that. No, but but here's the thing like so you look at some of the red pill podcasters like Andrew Tate, they all they all go back to men suffering in silence, right? Um, and I think from an overall societal standpoint, I think you're right. I think it's not it's not seen favorably, but you know, even from a government social services standpoint, you know, all of the resources go to women's problems, right? Whatever they are, whether they're physical or mental versus men, right? And suffering in silence is something that a lot of men do, um, and then they end up dropping dead, right? Because of health issues or or or health-related issues. Um, even from a romantic standpoint, John, what you said is is correct. Women, I mean, women really don't appreciate a sort of emotional man uh unless it's their gay friend, perhaps.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Well they say they do. Yeah, they always say that.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

I mean, we know, I mean, uh so one of the interesting things is Sadia Khan, who is in you you know you probably know her, but she always in her podcast says, I don't know why men are so happy when you get them a cup of coffee. Primarily because, and it's weird that she says that as a clinical psychologist.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

She's not a clinical psychologist.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, well, she claims she is, right? But um it's because the last time that man had a unconditional, an individual that gave them unconditional love was their mother. And she was the only one that gave a shit about how they felt. Um, and so that coffee represents uh a sort of you know, one nice thing that you've done for this guy. Like a nurturing. That's right. Um so you know, I've got uh an interesting uh sort of case study with this. So I used to run a sales team and 80% of my time was dedicated to worrying about my female staff. Um and they would come in you know in my office, and you know, I've got you know, husband issues, boyfriend issues, cheating issues, I can't get pregnant. Uh you know, the best one was I had a dream that I was having an affair with you. Why was I having that dream? I was like, fuck, you know, let's just go to HR now before this gets a leader, you know? I'm serious. And then, you know, I I had male, I had one male uh sales guy uh come to me and say, you know, and pointed that out that you know that some of us are actually top performers and you haven't even had a drink with us, but you're spending all your time with the with the girls, right? Uh on the team. Now, you know, uh they also speak up, right? Whereas men, you know, again, men are not speaking up.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

When it comes to needs, I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

You know, this suffering in silence has got to be the theme of this podcast right now because that's what men are doing. I have two I have a brother that just got a divorce, and I have a brother that's going through a divorce. And even the therapist is more skewed towards, you know, the female uh issues versus you know the men's issues. Yeah. So even from a clinical psychology standpoint, I'm not blaming both of you for this, but um, you know, the the sort of the textbook go-to playbook on this is well, we gotta be a little bit more uh, you know, a little bit more respectful for the for the female that's having the problem, and the man just has to get on with it. So, you know.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Well, there's a reason why I chose men's emotional health as my niche, and it's not because um because I I don't understand women, because I do, I love my sisterhood. And but I was seeing that there's so much out there for women, but not much for men. Um it's coming more and more. Um there's a lot of brotherhoods and you know organizations and all that now, which is great. And so they they are they are getting getting there a little bit. But this is why I I decided to to niche in on this because I I've I felt for men. I felt like they they don't have the outlet that we have because you know, us girls we have we have our girlfriend tribe, and also with all the financial freedom that women have these days comes enormous power. And uh they so it's like I don't need a man. So men are feeling like lost and not needed, and so that's why I wanted to have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So how do you look, we've all been in social situations where most men think that you know seeing a therapist is bullshit, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:19

How do you then and why do you think they they see that as well?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I I think it's what Jonathan said, right? I mean, you don't you're not supposed to uh show weakness and you know a bottle of whiskey is therapy, right? Essentially for most men. Um so that goes to the question to you is how do you so someone will come to you and you know they're used to suffering in silence.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

How do you get them to so basically I I am a safe space for them to uh to where they can just talk, you know, and and that's something that they're not used to. They're not used to being so heard. They often they often feel that they're not being heard and listened to, and that's what I do. I hear them and I listen, and I obviously I I question and you know and make them question their own mindset and you know, to so we can get things into a different direction. And um, but yeah, but just being I think there's so many men are missing that having someone they can just let it all out to, and it's all about them. Obviously, there's nothing about you know, it's not about it's not a conversation where it's about me and them, it's all it's all about them, and it's a real relief. I can see the relief on their own.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, but how do you unlock that? That's the the the I guess for both you and Jonathan, how do you unlock that? Because we've all they may sit in front of you, but it doesn't mean that they're going to actually open up.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Yeah, but they they they are they are there because they want to be there. So I guess they've reached the end of their taste. Yeah, they've actually like like where they come to a point where like, I really could do with that, you know, and it's I mean no one's forced them to come, or you know, so and yeah, it can take a bit of time and all that, but it's but it's about um having them feeling comfortable with me and and trusting me, I I guess, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Have their wives initiated this meeting, or they are coming to you directly? There are sometimes women who are referring uh men to their husbands to you because okay, because I was just gonna say probably a big percentage of that is their wives saying, look, you just push them over there. Yeah, you yeah, you know, and they're the reason why the guy's going insane, right? Most likely.

SPEAKER_06 13:30

And I think that the I think culture has changed. I think younger guys are having a much easier time, but I think it's still very much in society. Myself, I get through it because I'm also an executive coach and I do a lot of peak performance. So people come in going, oh, peak performance, I want to, you know, I want to win the next title belt, or I want to become CEO. And then it goes to uh a sort of more personal realm. A close friend of mine is a prostitute, and she's saying to me that a lot of no you can't take prostate.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

Oh, is that right? Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 13:59

Oh man, I'm out of date.

SPEAKER_05 14:02

In any case, financial dating.

SPEAKER_06 14:05

Financial dating is on your data. She can't date anymore. She's a financial dater. And uh she's explaining to me that a lot of the guys that come and see her are want to maintain their exclusive happy marriage, but they just want to be heard, and that her job actually is much less about what happens in bed and what happens before and afterwards. That it's many of them unaware of where to get a sense of tenderness, uh are going the physical route. And actually, whether or not she has sex with them is often secondary. What they're really coming for is a sense of attention and affection.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

It's so common. This is so common. Men hiring escorts and then say, I don't want to sex, I just want to talk. So, but of course, some of these escorts probably they're probably not really that interested, you know. So they might as well come to someone like me.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I've I'll be interested, and you know, I just a girl, that's what I want, is I just want them to listen to me.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Do you?

SPEAKER_00 15:08

And just go, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

I'm single. Being listened to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

I love the sound of my voice.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

You will get bored of that eventually.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

As as we all know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I think so. Because you want a partner, not a doormat, right? So presumably. Or a partner doormat. I don't know how you want to podcast.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Okay. So are men burned out because their value is tied entirely to performance and provision?

SPEAKER_06 15:43

I think we're gonna see some really uh scary changes because I think men are becoming obsolete. You know, women are, you know, if if if if a man's kind of the unique selling point is is provide and protect, and and well, women don't need the provide anymore because they're making the money now, and they don't need the protection because we have laws and everything else more substantially in place, the physical strength a man provides isn't much. I think the place of men is just dwindling. I I heard a someone say recently uh about her her long-term lover, uh, what's the point? He didn't even have sex with me this weekend. Why am I with a man? And as men feel that sense of well, I'm not valued in society, I think we're gonna get more violence, more aggression. Yeah, I think that's gonna be more a part of what happens because men don't know where to take their aggression.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, this is the reason why Nick Fuentes is such a big force now, right? You know who this guy is, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:40

You're obsessed with him.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Well, no, I'm not obsessed with him. I mean, you know, he kind of talks like the way we do, you know, uh off camera. Uh, me and my circle of friends. But I mean, one of his appeals is he must be in his mid-twenties. Um and in the US, I don't know what it is in Europe or in Asia, but women are in general, from a macro perspective, doing better than young men are doing.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Oh, much better.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

From an education standpoint, from a uh uh career standpoint, from a uh financial standpoint. And um women are doing better. Women are doing better. Absolutely. Young women, right? Uh the college age, like in the 20s.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

More women graduating. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

They're more aggressive at work, they're they're more harder working as well. So this goes to your point, which is, you know, there is a uh and also from a dating perspective, right? So, and you would know this coming from Dubai, which is, you know, you've got this top quartile of women, so from medium to top quartile of women, right? However you want to assess that, going after the top quartile men. And you've got, even from a second quartile standpoint, you've got young men that are left out of the dating market, whether it's physical dating, you know, you're meeting somebody in a bar or whatever, or from a from the apps.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Um but they don't even know how to deal with a woman, they've never been on a date, they're never they don't approach women anymore. So the the the young Gen Zs, they just don't know how to behave around women.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Well, they don't approach they don't approach women because women are uh uh so aggressive nowadays. Yeah uh number one. Number two, the women have an aspiration of what they want to go out with in terms of a man.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Gotta be a six foot over six foot, you've got to earn six figures, all of that. Women, women they they date sort of across and up, you know, that's what they do, you know. Uh I mean they have to men have to earn at least as much, but preferably more, you know.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Yeah, and it's actually been a study that I read recently. It was very interesting saying, you know, who is happiest? Is it the singles, the marrieds? Um, and what came out of it is actually single women were now scoring the under happy.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

I mean, the amount of women I meet to say is, why do I need a matter? And then you know men were happy because they were being looked after by a woman, having all their needs met. And the least happy were the married women because they're basically having to babysit a guy and run, you know, run around after you're looking after all his needs.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Well, having all his partnerships.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Telling him he's got to go sit down and his crown check your prostate, all of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Like is that what it's called now, checking the prostate.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

So yeah, single women and married men are that happy. Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

I saw that study as well. Yeah, so but no, I think uh I've uh I I talked to obviously a lot of a lot of men and uh they are struggling. And then so what is happening a lot now is that the so you have the the older guys, obviously one of the younger girls and all that, and you know, and there's a transaction there usually often. Um but what you have now happening is that all of these these younger guys, they are looking to the older women. They just they love all the older women because because they they find the the women their age, yeah, and know what they want, confidence and all that.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

And question to both of you is what is the usual demographic of that man that comes to you, Jonathan, and that man that comes to you, Ina? Age-wise, career-wise, is there like a pattern? Um and and and what are their problems? The three.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

No, no, but but I don't think I can disclose all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

No, no, no. I mean, as long as you don't use the names, I mean it's fine, right?

SPEAKER_06 20:32

But I'm just let me hand over to you for a moment. Why can I think about these numbers?

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Uh well for me, there isn't really an all ages really.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I mean, uh like Is there a pattern, is what I'm trying to get out of here.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like a couple of weeks ago, I I I had a discovery, it's like a discovery call, whatever you want to call it, uh, with a guy who was 29 and he's a sex addict or a porn porn um addict. You can relate to porn and masturbation uh uh addiction he was dealing with. And then I was like, and so yeah, I can get that, I can get that, but a lot of loneliness, a lot of loneliness. So it's not really so much of an age thing, it's the loneliness. And uh big cities like like Dubai can be very lonely places. There's a lot of people, uh you know, I see it online and all that, but people complaining about being lonely. Um and I I'm not sure why because part of the territory when you're an expert and you're away from the state. Yeah, you don't belong there. So yeah, but everyone's an expat in Dubai, so it's like but some handle it better than others, yeah. I guess so.

SPEAKER_06 21:38

In terms of the people who come to me, often uh it's somebody who feels like there's an ache inside. Like something's I know there's something's empty, there's and it could be someone who's like a super high performer and and just but who has that feeling, or it could be someone who's really struggling. But my most of my clientele tend to be pretty uh engaged, like they're It's not like the hardcore those who can't get out of bed.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

And again, that probably through progress of my price point. So they're performing in whatever they're doing, right? And they come to you, I assume, to get that extra 10%. And then you sort of break that down, and then there's the emotional component to it where you then advise them. For the high end, yes. Yeah, for the high end, yes. Yeah. And you mentioned athletes. Yeah. So you also, so it's not just the mental side, but it's the physical side as well.

SPEAKER_06 22:28

Well, a lot of physical is mental. So for example, if you're if you're a fighter, like it turns out like going into a ring to beat someone up or get beaten up is a lot about your psychology. Right. So like I remember one uh one one swimmer said to me, by the time we get to the starting blocks or whatever it's called, he's like, the difference between me and the guy next to me is trivial. It's it's it's down to the mindset because they've all had horrifically hard training. That when the when it's time to swim, it's about the quality of their mind. And so that's what they're going for in in those professional athletes.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And do you do do you like meet them um you know to do that tweaking? So obviously that their career is is the career is a big sort of driver, right? I mean, the partner in a law firm or an MMA fighter, totally different career uh goals and path. When do you intervene within the treatment? If can we call it treatment? Sure. Right? Um about the emotional component of that. Does that come a little bit later or does that come immediately?

SPEAKER_06 23:32

With me it tends to happen very quickly. With others not. And I don't know what it is about me that means that's the case. So very quickly, I'll be looking for trauma. It strikes me that an enormous amount of leaders uh carry trauma. And uh men and women. With men perhaps less well processed than women, but that's in a generalization. I I don't have any that's my sense of it. And so I'm looking at what is it that you are carrying deep inside that is getting in the way? Why is it that you keep coming second in the race? You know, you you drop a category, you come in second. You go up a category, you come in second. Why is it the first doesn't happen? And often it's related to some kind of self-limiting belief or something that something inside that isn't well processed. So I'm listening for that very quickly, and and it generally comes up quite fast.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

And this is something you wouldn't share with friends and family. This is why you need to have that in a person who's right.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So he's unlocking, and she's basically they're there to unlock. In your case, it's more marital issues and sort of male-female issues. But yeah, whereas his is more performance related, but both of you are doing the same thing essentially of unlocking. I'm not a therapist either, but I can do it.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Okay, let's move on to our next question. Someone's taking over.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Like it's just a person.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

You might have some problems, some some situational problems in your in your line of work, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

It's like, no, we're doing coaching, pain coaching only, and it's like, yeah, but I just want to be your friend, and then they then they pull on their, but I'm so lonely and nobody wants me, and that's ah, it's awful for me because I don't know what you know.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

No wonder.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

And too much of an empath, but you know, I have to have the boundaries, obviously. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

So what how how how many men learned the hard way that opening up emotionally actually leads to rejection, ridicule, and loss of respect?

SPEAKER_06 25:58

All the time, right? Yeah, I think all the time.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah, I see men do it to each other like in the bars and whatever. Yeah, you know, they they yeah, they they're very easy to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah, that's a form of bonding though.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

You do understand that, but sometimes like I I've seen men say really quite cruel things, and and then everyone's laughing, and they're supposed to just take it and you know, and then yeah, they're laughing with them, but you know, it stings, right? You know, there's there's there's some harsh things being said.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

I think it's a female perspective. I think if you would see me, and so Ella knows some of the guy friends that I have, there is a lot of banter, there's a lot of insulting uh, you know, and it it doesn't, it goes to you know, the women you dated or job performance or whatever. But the difference is is we're able to, you know, it's you know, water off a duck's duck's back in terms of when you that's you. Yeah, no, no, but when it's your close friends doing that to you. Now, if somebody I didn't know came up to me and said something like that, yeah, that's a different issue, right? Um and I you probably see that a lot at this high performance level where there is internal a type of bullying between even at a partner level, yeah, right? And you know, they they probably come to you and say, you know, this guy said this to me, and and you know, uh so I think at a competition level, what's being said is a way to try to unnerve your competition.

SPEAKER_06 27:28

Yeah, I think I think when it comes to opening up, like if you're an admirable strong guy and you get a chair in your eye, everybody loves it. You know, it's like, oh my god, he's great. That's so cute. If you don't come across as an admirable strong guy, like if you've overplayed that sensitive, vulnerable card just a little too much, just a little too much, the contempt flows so fast. Whereas, you know, I think women have a lot more leeway. You can you can you can you can be weak and all of a sudden everybody's protective of you. Man, you come across as weak, you you're kind of disgusting. And also so many partners go, he was a real man when I met him. Now I don't want to be with him. You know, or or like, and then when when women start sort of criticizing on, especially men in the sexual domain, it's like, wow, you know, you can like demolish a guy so quickly.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, but it goes back to my my my case study, right? Which is that that female employee that said she had a dream about me. So he loved the way to HR.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

How many times do you remind yourself about that?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

That has happened a lot. Uh and if a guy came up to me and said he had a dream about me, having an affair with me, that's a different HR conversation. It's a different H of a conversation. Yeah, exactly. And you know, because you're gonna tell HR for the from a uh, you know, who on the on the woman's side, don't be so hard on her, you know. I I can understand why she's dreaming about me. But if the dude says that to me, that that's it. You know, the guy's gotta go, you know.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

The guy's gotta go seriously. Okay, so seriously, let's get serious. Why do we only take men's mental health seriously when it turns violent or suicidal?

SPEAKER_06 29:09

Men aren't good at asking for help. Yeah. So I think they've got to take the you know, take it on the chin on that one. They don't say, I'm suffering, I need a hand. Having said that, younger folk do. They're much, much better at it. Rates of utilization of mental health services for younger people is is much higher in in uh young men than older men. But older men is just not okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

Like, you know, deal with it. The last thing you want is to be considered weak, to be a failure in terms of providing and protecting.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah, because they see vulnerability as weakness.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Yeah. Have both of you uh experienced this as a suicide issue? Uh in terms of like somebody that is uh potentially suicidal, and what are the signs of that? Oh, I'm happy to go into that. Yeah, is it okay?

SPEAKER_06 29:54

Is it so if somebody is um the the sort of stage one is what we call ideation? Like I'm thinking about it would I be better off dead, or very passive ideation would be uh, you know, I nobody I'm not really valuable, like like these sort of subtle comments that show that someone's thinking about the value of not existing. And then when it starts to go from ideation to a plan, you're dealing with a new a new level of risk. So, you know, the the the the the the window on the 14th floor of my building, you know, I could always jump from that. So now you can tell you that? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Wow. And then the third level is intent. When somebody has a plan and then they say, and I'm intending to do it at the full moon because my parents were married on the full moon, and this is my way of you know giving back to them. So so it's kind of ideation, plan, and intent. And what I generally tell like students of mine is at ideation you've got to be super careful, but at plan, you need to refer. Like, unless you're an experienced clinician. Have you have you have to do that?

SPEAKER_04 31:00

Just to interrupt, well, I I mean I have a friend of mine, she lives in a condo where one of her neighbors who she really liked, and she used to chat with him and see him jogging and they'd have a chat. No one knew he had anything adverse going on in his life. And he came home, he had a wife and three little kids, he just ran and jumped off the balcony and killed himself. And nobody had any idea that he was suffering, he had issues, he obviously needed help. Zero idea, because men keep it.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah, they bottle up the bottle of the body.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Elon Musk actually was asked something, a similar question uh about do you um you worry about death? And his response was yes, uh, and it might be a relief. Oh wow. Right? Yeah. So this is the richest man in the world that is so, I guess he's under so much stress and pressure that you know he it just came out that it might be a relief for me to nice rest. Well, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

An eternal life.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

They're driven to the point where you know it's walking away is not a option. He's Mr.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Genius, Mr. coming up with new ideas and innovation. He's got to keep keep that going.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And that's why I think a lot of these guys are on ketamine and cocaine and and and to to to basically keep themselves from offing themselves.

SPEAKER_06 32:35

Yeah. Which is why like uh as mentioned in a previous podcast, if somebody if you're concerned about someone, just ask. Do you have thoughts of harming yourself? Because harming yourself or suicidal thoughts is a good way of just opening. Because when you ask someone directly, it's like they're much more likely to say. And uh and then when they say it, it's amazing what relief they can experience. And so when I'm having introductory calls with people, like it's surprising to me. Often within five minutes, we're talking about suicidality. Wow. Uh and and because somebody will have said you know one or two words, and then I'll just follow the rabbit, kind of the path. And and um Yeah, it's amazing. With within a few minutes, somebody who didn't think they would be talking about it will be. And that's such an important conversation.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

And such a relief to them as well for them to actually even though they didn't think they were going to talk about it, but then you led them there, and then they will that must be such a relief.

SPEAKER_06 33:33

And there's something when they say it for the first time, it's as if like they can they can then see shit. I need help. I need to you know that that it becomes more conscious, but but but until then it can be so bottled up inside that it's a monster that is waiting to to take over and do something terrible. And so a huge proportion of suicides happen within ten minutes, or attempted suicides happen within ten minutes of the thought. Uh so really yeah ten minutes. Ten minutes.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

And that's why people can say he never expressed any emotions, he never told me he felt like this, he just went off and did it. Yeah, it's a big mystery. I I know some stories like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

I've never tried suicide, by the way. No intention of just in case you guys are wondering. We're not worried. Yeah. You'll be around choosing skirt for all the somebody somebody else may commit suicide because of me, but not the other way around.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

So she's gonna edit that one now for sure. I know. Um, and it's there's a lot of research also suggesting that because men are bottling up emotions, they're more likely to express themselves violently. Um, somehow, yeah, but it it's so dangerous when it's reached that point of violence. And I was reading this week in the newspaper about a young first-time father in the UK who shook his baby to death.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 34:57

And the police did an examination of all his obviously his phones and his computers, and he'd literally texted in to Google how to cope with feelings of frustration and anger just before he did this. And it just goes to show, you know, obviously, I don't obviously condone what he did at all. It's horrendous, and he definitely should go to prison, but at the same time, he was obviously in a place where he needed help. And he's having to Google what do I do with all these feelings of frustration and anger.

unknown 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

I think that's a very different situation than what we are talking about, right? I mean, that there's something wrong with that guy, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:35

No, well, it wasn't able to regulate his emotions, you know, then a lot of men aren't, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

That's a that's a that's a a a big problem. I I think what we are talking about is the run-of-the-mill guy who would have to be a little bit of a few.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Things can just snap, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:51

I think so.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

And look at in a in a relationship, you know, suddenly your nice guy of many years can suddenly start beating you up. Yeah.

unknown 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Hey, speaking about that, the one thing that I want to talk to both of you about. Sorry, I'm taking over a bit.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

But I kind of begin to talk about the violence.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

No, no, I know, but I'm getting to that point. On the violence issue. Now, they have done studies on school shootings. Young men, disenfranchised, as we discussed, you know, uh overshadowed by female students or women in general. Most of them are on anti-depress, all of them are on antidepressants. All of them. Okay. Uh so and then they've got other prescription drugs, drugs which are, I'm not talking about like Xanax, but Ritalin, uh, what's the other one? Um, the other ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Adderall.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Adderall, right? What's your view on that relative to men's health? And these are band-aids or do they really actually help?

SPEAKER_06 36:50

These medications? Yes. Oh, these medications clearly can profoundly help. But I'm not saying they can't be times when they could do harm. So uh but that's that's why you want to have a good clinician. And and I'm I'm quite biased in this. When uh when somebody wants to take uh that kind of medication, I'm always encouraging people to go to a psychiatrist, not because their general practitioner won't be good at it, but because psychiatrists do this all day, every day. So go to a you know, going to a psychiatrist or ideally uh and seeing does it is it working for you? Because some of these medications uh may really not be helpful or be counterproductive for certain people, but for others, I I absolutely with confidence can say they're life-saving. I mean you you want to be you want to be treated well. You don't want to be just popping pills just because you're you know you found them in your mom's drawer or your your and is it a long-term solution?

SPEAKER_04 37:40

I mean, it's like you've got the band-aid on still, and maybe you need to rip it off and deal with the issues. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

But obviously, ADHD medication like Adderall and Ritalin is very different to antidepressants. They're the two very different medications.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

I have no idea. I'm not taking any one of them.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

I think you need to. Okay. Calm me down. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they they all work on very different in different ways on the brain.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Most of the traders I knew when uh when I covered high frequency trading or bond trading, particularly high frequency trading, every one of them were on Adderall, uh Ritalin, Xanax, Xanax as well. Xanax as well, because you have to go up and come down, come down, and then and then of course recreational drugs on the weekend. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:25

Cocaine typically adds.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Yes, of course. And all of them look very normal. Yeah, and they're on this all the time. Yeah. Uh and somehow they're functional. These things work.

SPEAKER_06 38:34

They work. I mean, there's a reason they take them to work.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

They take something to get up and then they and then they yeah, they have to balance it all out. And so it's a way of dealing with the pressure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

But the the the failure is in some ways community, I think. That you know, those young men are not feeling part of a community where where they're acknowledged, they have a place, they feel marginal, they're they're sort of feeling weak. Um, and and so in that sense of frustration, well, men generally aren't good at expressing emotion. They don't, you know, some write poetry, some some have conversations, but a lot want to do something physical, and that's where the physical aggression comes in.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

And let's face it, if a man was expressing how sad he's feeling, if he's deeply sad, I mean everyone would feel very uncomfortable listening to that.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

It's just like a woman were doing the same, it might even be attractive.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 39:25

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. She's crazy, but she's hot. Exactly. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 39:29

Many men will say, like, oh my god, she's weak. I want to protect her. It's kind of erotic. But like if a man is being sad, it's just kind of oh, do we have to deal with this?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

What's one thing some uh a man can do that's going through this level of stress? I I wouldn't say mental health issues, I'm just talking about you know, uncontrollable stress, for example. The question to both of you what's one thing, if there's some one thing that you could suggest to them, what would that be?

SPEAKER_06 39:58

Try and find one person you can talk to about it. And often that needs to be an anonymous person because I can't talk to my wife because she's upset with this, or I can't tell her the truth that I had an affair last weekend, and I can't talk to my best friend because he'll judge me. Try and find one person you can talk to.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

That'll be you, or you know what kind of or there's hotlines available for mental like some mental health hotlines, yeah, suicide hotlines, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_06 40:25

That person at the dog park who brings their dog there as well. Like just some place where you can express and have that sense of being acknowledged.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

But I think also many many men they they have this sort of feeling like uh like one uh that I spoke to, he said, Well, uh, why would anyone care? Why why would anyone want to listen to my problems? And you know, so uh it's uh they don't want to burden other people and you know that that's sort of and that's the manly thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But of course they can come to me and then I you know I'm all there for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

So uh so that that's sort of and it's great. You're great you're filling that niche because it, you know, as you said, there's uh virtually nothing out there specifically for men to you know offload.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

And I think also um a lot of men prefer to speak to a woman because it's a kind of like a softer thing, you know, like whilst there are also men who will say, No, I will talk to another man, not a woman. Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

What do you guys think about one one final question on this? What do you guys think about physical exercise?

SPEAKER_06 41:26

Super important. Absolutely, there's no doubt. This is one of the best things you can do for your mental health. Like to be exercising five times a week, you know, even if it's only 15 minutes, that that can be equivalent to taking antidepressants. I'm not saying don't take your antidepressants and exercise. If you're on antidepressants, keep taking them and exercise. But like simply exercising has an absolutely profound impact. Eating and eating decent food has a very strong impact. Uh sleeping a decent amount is extremely important, and we are chronically uh we're chronically sleep deprived as a society and exercise. These three things can can make many people like me unemployed.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

But I think there's also there's just so much pressure on guys in the workplace. You know, it is the hours are getting longer and longer, your targets are getting higher and higher. I mean, the immense pressure guys are under to perform in their roles and then to provide everything for their more and more demanding families. I mean, families now, I think the simplicity of family life is gone, and now everyone's so aspirational. They all want this, they want that, they want, you know, top holidays, the nicest car, the nicest clothes. I mean, it's just like this growing burden for people.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

But it's very often meet. Now, isn't it? You know, most of the time. Yeah, women go through the same issues as well, right? Women are facing the issue of they they go to work and they have children, and then of course, they can never give 100% at work, and then they can never give 100% to their children. So they always, there's they're in a constant state of guilt.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

But women are more likely to share those feelings and burdens with friends.

SPEAKER_06 43:06

One place where I think men feel uh sometimes inadequate and don't know where to go is uh a sexual performance. I don't know why I'm bringing up sex so many times tonight, but but when men stuff this is the only time.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

Sitting next to a hot blonde, that's the one. There we go.

SPEAKER_06 43:20

Sorry, we have to tell you. It's your fault. Um it's so so like when they're they're not performing in bed, like you know, a woman to some extent can just lie back and think of England. A guy, if it's not, if it's not up, it's not up. And and the sense of failure that that can create and the problem in the couple, and then where does the guy go? Like, how many guys can he go to and say, shit, I can't perform in bed?

SPEAKER_03 43:44

But this is a huge problem amongst the younger generation these days. Oh, really? Erectile dysfunction is massive amongst young men these days. And it could be blamed on uh excessive pawn watching and gaming and and all of this. But yes, I've been studying.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I don't watch porn by the way. I don't know where you get that.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

It's it's uh it's a uh young men are suffering a lot of erectile dysfunction these days.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

And what is the exact cause of that? Is it again mental the stress level?

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Or or other?

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Well, I think it's I think it's uh porn. Um there' yo young guys are watching a lot of porn, so they have these unrealistic fantasies, and then when they actually get with a real woman, you know, they they don't know what to do. Almost, you know, it's it's just it's different, of course.

SPEAKER_06 44:37

But I think it it that there's a other factors can be physiological. Like for ex for a man to to uh get erect, to ejaculate, it's an incredibly complicated dance between the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. It's a miracle it happens. And so when somebody is is stressed out, like that system can can fall apart. And so if you're you know dating this manly man who ain't performing in bed, it's like what the fuck's that about? He's not really a man. Right, right. And when he hears that, when he hears the the sense of disparagement, that can be like uh very hard for him to come back from.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

But but I think he doesn't even need to be told that and that nothing needs to be said, but he will feel it. Yeah. He will immediately feel, oh my god, I'm not a man, you know. You know, even if the woman was sympathetic to it and everything, I think men will be they would have yeah, huge sense of shame.

SPEAKER_06 45:30

I think if there was more conversation around it and more sense of, you know, these things happen, honey, it's okay. It wouldn't be such a big deal. But the science society the way it is now, the idea that a man is uh not, you know, always performing in that department, it's uh it's it's such a taboo. It's such a taboo to mention. And because of it, I you know, couples will initially sort of take a bit of time off, and then 10 years will pass where no one's had sex because it all began with that that day or that weekend when I couldn't get it off.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

And the longer you go, the less you think about it.

SPEAKER_06 46:00

Well uh sometimes or the less you feel you can you can come back together because there's now a moat between the two of you.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

I think there's also unrealistic expectations from women, I think.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Oh, tell us.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

What are those in bed?

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Really?

SPEAKER_03 46:17

What are we unrealistic about?

SPEAKER_00 46:19

I think women have this uh also have a fantasy on what it's supposed to be, right? Particularly younger women. Um and that's you talk about Hollywood movies.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Because he only dates younger women. Um give the guy a break. It's true. I'm still insulted from when you told me you only dated women under the age of 25. What?

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah. Well, I can't find anyone else. What do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_04 46:42

I see.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

But you look at Hollywood movies, you look at what was that one which what was that uh 50 Shades of Grey? I mean, come on, man. You know, nobody does that.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

Yes, they do that. Yeah, it's a lot of kink out there apparently, and Tinder makes.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

And you're complaining about me.

unknown 47:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

It's all out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

I read a lot about there seems to be a lot of kink there in around.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

But I mean a lot of books, a lot of movies. Women watch porn as well, right? Um, so I think I think it cuts both ways, but the men are the obviously the the the the least able to cope with that, right?

SPEAKER_06 47:26

I've heard in the last few months multiple men talk about having partners who she wants me to be uh more of a dom. And like, hey doc, how do I become a Dom? And what's a Dom, by the way? So many of going on with you.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

I'm I'm pretty plain vanilla when it comes to this stuff. You you're just I don't know what you think of me, but anyway.

SPEAKER_06 47:48

And so that I don't know if that's a sort of general cultural thing, but that's certainly something that I've heard in my practice of people feeling insecure. Like, how you know that being a man in the bedroom means I have to spank her, but how do I do that? And so so I have heard this sense of like I have to perform like Christian Gray in that movie. Yes, um, but I I don't know if that's a widespread thing.

unknown 48:10

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

I've heard all women like spanking, by the way, just FYI.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

I had so much as a kid. Yeah, exactly. Different kind of spanking we're talking about. Yeah. So let's move on to our last question. What does healthy masculinity actually look like?

SPEAKER_06 48:25

Good question. I think in some ways it's the wrong question. I think what's a healthy expression of yourself? Whether you're, you know, uh have male genitals or female genitals, or you identify as male or identify as female, what is a healthy expression of who you are, regardless of that? And that will surely embrace both femininity and masculinity.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_06 48:48

Yeah, that is actually.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

I I think you know um it's a lot about emotional regulation. Um, it's not when when it comes out in anger, it's obviously not healthy, is it? It's um anger or resentment, bitterness, you know, that all of those are not healthy.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

And to finish up, let's have one positive thought for guys out there on how to cope with their pent-up emotions that start with you, I know.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Just don't give up. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, um I think go find someone to talk to, you know, if things are bottling up. Is it because it needs to go somewhere, it needs to come out because if it if it's all bottled up, eventually it could come out in anger, it can come out in you know, unhealthy behaviors. Yes. So yeah, so I think it is important to to open up and talk to someone. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

I think exercise, I agree with Jonathan, if that's one thing you can do. I think uh such a man thing to say.

SPEAKER_04 49:53

No, no, but but it it's it's obviously learned a lot in the last 40 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah, uh, but uh, you know, if you again, if you look at all those red pill guys, right, particularly the the Tape brothers and Myron Gaines, and all of them talk about get in the gym and you know, this almost like a self-regulation, right? Because you're you're around people that are you know prof you know are are exercising as well. You're you're you it's an outlet where you know that pent-up anger potentially dissipates. Uh, you look good, right? Um, and also from a social perspective, right? When you go to a gym and there are a lot of men working out, for example, you know, people start helping each other. Hey, let me spot spot you, let me, you know, you should do this, you know, you're doing this wrong. Um, and I think if that's the one thing that I would suggest to a younger person, younger man, is get in the gym.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

But they they all are these days. They're the amount of big buffer guys these days.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Maybe in Dubai, but not in you know, middle class families in America or in the UK or wherever. I don't think kids are. Because when we were kids, I mean I'm I'm of course older than you, but only by a bit. When we when when when we were in school, uh playing sports was just done. Yeah, you had to play something and you had to be good at something. And you had to go to training and and you know, you're you weren't idle at all. There was no time, you know. You finished school.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

But they didn't have iPads and games. And they're bottling up emotions still.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

But sure, but but that was also one of the ways where you could get female attention, is if you played on a team.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

Sorry, Samir, we're running out of time. So I need that was meant to be like a quick answer, but thank you for that.

SPEAKER_06 51:40

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

Jonathan.

SPEAKER_06 51:42

I had a client who went through years of depression. I asked him how did you get over it? And he said, ground strokes. I'm like, what are ground strokes? And he said, Oh, tennis. It's the bit-by-bit, just get the ball over the fence. Just do your best now today. If you're going through a hell of a hard time, ground strokes. Just do what you can bit by bit. And eventually. That's a great analogy, tennis analogy.

SPEAKER_04 52:05

Yeah, one step at a time, tennis. Yeah, 100%. Okay, well, thank you so much for this lively debate. Okay, so thank you for joining us on Ella Podcasts. Whether you're male or female, bottling up emotions is unhealthy and takes its toll on your well-being. Your thoughts and feelings need to go somewhere. So don't internalize and suffer in silence. Please talk to someone, whether it's a coach, therapist, a trusted friend, a hotline and unload what's bringing you down and holding you back. If you want to suggest a topic for our next episode, please join our Facebook group at Ella Podcasts and message us. Please rate and share this podcast and subscribe to our channel. Sending you all a big hug.