Managing Suicidal Thoughts: Finding Light in the Darkest Moments

*Trigger Warning*: This episode discusses suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts, depression, self-harm, and mental distress. Please take care while listening.

If you feel unable to stay safe, please contact your local emergency services or a suicide crisis helpline immediately. In this deeply personal episode of Ella Podcasts, we talk openly about managing suicidal thoughts, why they happen, what can trigger them, what helps in the darkest moments, and why it is worth staying alive.

When I told people I was covering this topic, some warned me not to. But someone has to talk about what so many people silently endure, especially when children, teenagers, and adults are losing their lives before they’ve had the chance to discover what life might still hold for them.

Joining me are:

🔹 Dr Jonathan Marshall – Psychologist and former professor
🔹 Sarah Cole – Educational coach sharing her lived experience of suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts
🔹 Chris Galea – Samaritans volunteer, leadership coach, and lecturer in suicide risk assessment

Sarah shares with extraordinary honesty what it felt like to live with suicidal thoughts from a young age, how she survived, and what she now teaches young people about emotional regulation, belonging, movement, hope, and recovery.

This episode is for anyone who has struggled, anyone supporting someone they love, and anyone who wants to better understand the reality of suicidal thoughts without judgment or fear.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

✔ Suicidal thoughts can be shaped by both biology and life experience
✔ Many people who struggle do not look visibly distressed
✔ Asking about suicide does not plant the idea — it can open the door to help
✔ Shame and isolation can make suicidal thinking worse
✔ Small coping tools matter: journaling, movement, music, pets, routine, and connection
✔ Even a small glimmer of hope can be enough to help someone hold on

If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, please reach out for support. Talk to:
A doctor or GP
A therapist or counsellor
A trusted teacher or adult
A crisis line or suicide prevention hotline
A friend who can stay with you and listen without judgment

🔔𝐃𝐨𝐧'𝐭 𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞 𝐭𝐨 𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐥 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐮𝐩𝐝𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐬.
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✅ About Ella Podcasts.

Welcome to Ella Podcasts, a space where we openly talk about tough times and the struggles that come with them. Hosted by Ella Sherman and clinical psychologist Dr. Jonathan Marshall, this podcast shares personal experiences, feelings, and practical tools to help you cope and build resilience. 

We discuss topics like loss, grief, anxiety, low self-esteem, and life changes, offering support and understanding. Each episode includes insights from two special guests to help you feel less alone and find ways to face challenges with hope and a touch of humor. Join us for honest conversations that lift the weight off your shoulders and guide you through life's difficult moments.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. When I shared with my friends my next topic would be managing suicidal thoughts, they were all alarmed and told me not to do it as it would make me look unstable and unemployable for the future. Someone has to talk about this difficult topic. Knowing that children and young people are ending their lives before they've even really begun is my motivation for sharing ways to manage those dark thoughts while revealing the perspective that being older gives you and why we believe it's worth hanging in there. Many people learn how to manage their suicidal thoughts all their lives. They learn how to cope with life's pressures. They may want to escape the tough times, but they've figured out a way on how to quell the urge to end their life and how to find the energy and reasons to keep going. I have with me today Dr. Jonathan Marshall. He's a top psychologist and a former professor. He's a Stanford and Harvard graduate, and he offers great perspective and practical advice to help people during their darkest hour. I also have with me Chris Galea, and he devotes much of his time to the Samaritans on their suicide prevention hotline and as part of the emergency activation team. He's a leadership coach and a lecturer at the School of Positive Psychology. He lectures psychotherapy students on the risk assessment for suicide. And I also have Sarah Cole, whose career started off as a physical education teacher, and she's now an educational coach. She has a master's degree in leadership and policy. And Sarah works with schools to build cultures that support both the students and teachers. She's had to counsel students battling depression and attempting suicide and runs early intervention programs. Sarah will bravely share her personal journey of mental distress, suicidal thoughts, and suicide attempts. And thank you for being so brave being here today.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Thank you, Ella.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Okay, so let's start with Jonathan. Are suicidal thoughts due to nature or nurture? Is it down to brain chemistry or life events?

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Both. The statistics from twin studies suggest that between 40 to 55 percent of it is biological. But we also know that life experiences make an enormous difference. So the more ad what they call adverse childhood experiences, sometimes known as ACEs, you have, the more likely you are to attempt suicide. So if you've had seven or more adverse childhood experiences, such as neglect, abuse, uh household dysfunction that you've been exposed to, you're 51 times more likely to attempt suicide. So it's very clear that uh your environment makes a huge difference, but then so does your biology.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

And do we know what percentage of people uh nature versus n nurture?

SPEAKER_04 3:30

R not really. I mean, when we say like 40 to 55 percent seems to be biological, it's as if that sets the stage. And then on that stage you you put on the adverse childhood experiences or other experiences, and that that sort of like loads the gun up, and then you have a trigger, and the trigger is what fires the the final.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

And so for biological, I assume people who have actually been raised in a happy home, love their parents, doing well in school, whatever it may be, they can still have those dark thoughts kill themselves. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

And you the statistics vary a little bit, like uh the the international statistics are that um just under 50% of the teenagers who uh attempt suicide or commit rather commit suicide, that there's no reason to think that they were high risk. So there's nothing that we can are aware of that you couldn't have known. Um and so it it's a terrible shock, regardless if whether or not the the child was at high risk, but but completely out of the blue. And when you think that the time between the thought that I'm going to kill myself and the actual attempt seems to be, for roughly half the cases, under 10 minutes. It's it's uh shocking that um how how damaging it is and yet how out of control many of us are from the.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I remember my uncle committed suicide and he was a lovely guy. I really loved him. He was he was incredibly jovial, always cracking jokes. The last person you would expect to go and and do that. And it was it was a huge shock to everyone. Whereas my father, who was you know, a manic depressive, diagnosed as that, and always talking about going and committing suicide, he never did it. So it was it was just the strangest thing that my uncle, no one thought he would do that, and the devastation left behind is you know, that my poor cousins, it so impacted their lives because they were, I think it was 11 and 14 at the time that he did it. And you know, really their lives have been ruined, and they have a lot of issues, and uh, you know, it's hard not to be angry with him because he he really destroyed them and so many people missed him.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Um can I add on to that? Yes. So I would be that headline happiest girl in school ends her life or commit suicide. I don't think anybody would have guessed that I was sad, angry, lonely, all of these things, because behind the smile, behind the mask, it was outwardly smiling, laughing, joking, much like your uncle. The person that people came to with their problems. Come see me, I'll speak to you about it, I'll listen. Because the spotlight is on you, not on me. And for me it's accumulative risk, the accumulation of not big aces, but aces such as divorce is still an ace or separation. So even small events, to your point, it doesn't have to be big things that trigger the experience, or for me at least, the experience. It was lots and lots of little things that eventually led to my first attempt.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

And how old were you when you first had these feelings? Oh, first had these feelings consciously.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

I could probably articulate them around about twelve, but the sense of taking action probably around fourteen.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Chris, you were going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

Yeah, I think I mean certainly from from our experience, um we'd echo an awful lot of what you've just said that it it is very much a cumulative experience. It does build up over time. It's a series for most people, and we've got to be very cautious of sweeping generalizations because every individual case is individual and unique. But for a very high percentage of people, it is that combination. It is multiple small events that build up into a perfect storm, and then there is that one final straw that breaks the camel's back, and that's the ultimate trigger. And that can be tiny, absolutely tiny. There can be a whole slew of major events, ACEs, early life experience, lots of stuff. But it's quite often just a tiny little thing that is the final is the ultimate trigger. So I certainly what we see in the callers that we speak to, very, very similar experience to yourself, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

And Sarah, at that young age, did you have anyone you could talk to about these feelings?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

I think that's part of the contribution of not having a trusted adult, of not having anyone to speak to, to have the narrative. So the narrative for myself is I don't matter. And if I don't matter, I'm not seen, heard, valued. But that's the story that I was telling myself. I had evidence to support that for sure. And for those of you who do know brain neuroscience, we search to be right, we find the evidence to make sure that we're right. But the idea of speaking to someone or letting someone know, that was not on the cards for me. And the story of shame, being seen as weak, not being good enough, rather than the image that I portrayed of happy and I've got this, do it yourself, DIY, you know, little Miss Independent from the 90s, Spice Girls, Girl Power. All of these things societally were telling me, be happy, everything's great, you've got this. And behind the scenes, it was not like that for me.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I can understand that because I, you know, I I struggled as a child as well, but I think for me it was very much circumstances. You know, I was raised in a very abusive household, and a lot happened to me that just frankly made me so miserable I didn't want to be here anymore. And I'd reached that point of I don't want to be here. End it now. It would be far preferable not to be here than to have to keep going through all this. And when you're a kid, it feels like it's eternity waiting to grow up. You've got years of having to take it, and it can really just wear you down. So, you know, it was a common thought pattern I had as a kid. And again, you don't talk to people, I don't know. I I never even thought about talking to anyone about it. It was all about me, and it was internal, but but you know, it was a very serious thing that it was more about figuring how to do it and you know, trying to find the least painful way, the quickest way, in a way that you would definitely do the job. Um, as a kid, that was that was all my focus. But I get this that sometimes you put on the smiley face and no one suspects because you put on the act, and you know, people could say, Oh, you're always so cheerful. And it's like, you know, I was thinking of hanging myself this morning, but great you're saying I look so cheerful.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

And that's the exhaustion. And for me, that's for me, it was the when I have those thoughts and feelings, it's like being in a black hole that I can't get out of. I'm moving through mud, but somebody else is living my life. Somebody else is out there at school with my friends, smiling, laughing, joking, but it's not me, it's somebody living my life outside. And I'm in the black hole, stuck, alone, exhausted, and I'd rather it just be done. Yeah. And when I did attempt, my first attempt, I was devastated when I woke up. I was absolutely devastated that I was still here. And you know what I did? I got up, I got changed, and I went to school, and nobody noticed. And that was more evidence to I don't matter. So holding that narrative and being like, yeah, no, this is proof I don't matter. So it doesn't matter if I try or not try, if I'm here, I'm not here. And that was that took a long time and still continues to be something that I hold, but with speaking to people, journaling as at the time I would never have picked up the phone. At the time I never would have told anybody about this. But what I did do was poetry, and I had a notebook filled with just so much poetry and rubbish. But for me, that was what I did. It was just a form of journaling, a form of expression where I could be honest with with at least somebody or something, without the judgment or fear of judgment from other people. And some of those things I burnt, like after writing it, I burnt it because I didn't want anyone to see. And other times I'm pretty confident that those books are still in my childhood home somewhere, just gathering dust.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I think when you're a child, it's you know, you're so in the middle of it. You know, the world seems so huge and and a scary place, and you know, it's really hard to kind of get beyond that. You don't have the perspective of being an adult when you learn about all the things in the world that are worth staying here for. You don't have that yet as a kid. And um, you know, I'm I feel like the older and older I get, you know, more balanced I am in terms of realizing there's plenty to be grateful to be alive for. There is joy, there is happiness, it is attainable. But when you're a little kid and you're in the heat of that moment, it's uh it's a really dark time. And I can understand why a lot of kids do it in their lives, because everything seems so big. You know, if you if you don't get the grade you want at school, it it feels so enormous. If you, you know, if your first kid boyfriend spits up with you, it feels like Romeo and Juliet. You know, everything is personified, and I think that's dangerous.

SPEAKER_05 14:14

It is it is, and I think it's it's incredibly dangerous. And I mean back to you, Sarah, in terms of you found an outlet for your expression, you found your voice. It might be in writing, but just being able to express yourself is a huge, huge thing. Whether you talk to somebody and picking up the phone takes a huge, huge amount of courage, just an unbelievable amount of strength. But at least you found your own way to express yourself. You found your voice, you found the validation. And even if it's in writing, you were that seen, heard, and valued, which is something that is so critical as a child. Um, because as you say, you do feel small, you do feel insignificant in this big planet. Um, so some validation at any time is important, but when you're particularly facing challenges that are mounting up and becoming overwhelming, some sort of validation is super important, some avenue for expression is super important, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

And as a kid, I think you don't realise yet, you know, what are your passions in life, what are your talents? You know, you might be unpopular at school, you might be bullied, you might be, you know, you don't think you're good at any of the subjects at school, but you know, maybe 10, 20 years later you find out, oh, I'm I'm actually really good at doing this, or actually I'm really popular with this group of people. But as a kid, again, you haven't got that perspective to realize things change.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

It's finding that belonging to belonging with that group, and then just the the validation of it's gonna be okay. It really is going to be okay. But it doesn't feel like it. It feels overwhelming, insurmountable, never-ending. And you're like, I just I'm done. I don't want to be stuck in this mud anymore. I want to just be done with this. But finding that tribe, finding your people, it takes time sometimes. Some people will find their people at school. And I was surrounded by people and completely alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

I think sometimes we can be um you can have a belonging, you know, the family that's really very supportive. And and then there's a breakup and the child, you know, the teenager, the person in their 20s, I mean, whatever age, although teenagers I think are more at risk, uh, commit suicide. And I think you have this where it's like, wow, there was a loving family. There was no reason to the child had belonging, but not always belonging where they wanted it.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

And sometimes I think emotionally, you know, if you're that way inclined, and I I used to feel this, it was just, I'd think to myself, it's so hard to stay alive. Because the pull not to be was extremely strong. And it, you know, all day it would be like trying to stay alive. And I know it sounds dramatic, but it was just these huge feelings of being pulled to that, you know, like it's your destiny, and it's like get on with it, do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

If I just want to say it's not dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Like, it's not dramatic. Those thoughts and feelings are real. Your thoughts and feelings, if you are experiencing them, are valid. It's not dramatic, it's not attention seeking. That's a whole societal narrative. It's like, oh, these people, then you know, they're looking for attention. No, I would I did not want any attention. I wouldn't want anyone to know about this. Yeah. But the drive, the desire, but it's not dramatic.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

I 100% agree. And I think if you I mean you touched on it, Jonathan, in terms of how isolated children are, how utterly alone through that teenage years. And let's not forget that in that youth category, because children feel so isolated, teenagers are so isolated, they've got nowhere to go, and nobody to talk to at a time in their life when there is the most profound change, physical, emotional, mental, everything, everything, everything is up for grabs. And they've got nobody to talk to. They can't can't talk to their parents. Of course they can't. They can't talk to their peers because everybody's at a different stage of development and nobody understands. They can't talk to their teachers confidentially. So they've got nobody. There is no and you talk about belonging and that support network and that support structure, people took the container to catch you. Teenagers have got a very, very, very small container, and it's all too easy to fall out of it. Um, and I think as a society globally, we need to be more aware of how vulnerable teenagers are in this space.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

And that's what makes me so sad every time you read about a teenager who watched a TikTok video and suddenly they're committing suicide with other kids around the world, and you know, that somebody is posting material telling them how to do it, you know, the best methods. Let's do it same day to the same time. And it it's it's really it's just tragic that you know, with all the social media out there, kids are just being given more tools, more ideas. I mean, Jonathan, do you think this is sowing seeds in kids' heads that didn't even have those seeds?

SPEAKER_04 20:00

I think it's also reducing the barrier to doing it. So if if the time between a thought to do it and actual action is often less than 10 minutes, then if I know how to do it, if that TikTok video just showed me, I'm that much closer to being able to do it. But if it had just been 15 minutes, well, a lot of them wouldn't have done it. Uh in in one study where they looked at uh they interviewed 29 people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. Wow. So this is 220 feet. You hit the water at 75 miles an hour. It's amazing anybody survived. Uh, every single one of the 29 interviewed said before they hit the bottom they regretted it. And one of them is quite vocal about it. He said, as I was falling, I realized all of my problems were small. Uh the only one that was big was that I was about to die. Commit suicide. Anything that makes it easier. And so any social media platform. And when you hear of a celebrity who's committed suicide, and press is generally pretty good about not publicizing that stuff, although some press isn't. It's called the Virte effect, where um it's a 1 to 5% increase in suicide as a result of a celebrity suicide. So we remodel them, we're like, ooh, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it that way too. Um so yeah, I think anything that reduces the barrier to doing it increases it. Amnesty International just did a study and found that within three to four hours, um uh account users who are pretending to be 13-year-olds were exposed to material on suicidality. And so there's a real uh selling point to expose teenagers to this stuff. Um, and and it it's ghastly. Uh in France there's now like some cases about this. Like, are children being inappropriately shown this material? And should the the software, the people providing that material, be held accountable for these deaths?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, and that's a I'm sure I think that's already in the European courts, isn't it? Right now, they're debating, you know, whether whether the creators of this are actually.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

Yeah, I think there's a there's a debate to be had about having open an open forum to discuss and talk about it and to express yourself, as you said, Sarah. But where does it become enabling? And that's a critical issue, particularly in the youth category, where again you're dealing with people that are incredibly impressionable. It only takes you know whether it's a celebrity or it it the risk of glorifying it and heroizing it is is very much there, particularly for younger, impressionable people.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

There's a case right now in the UK where a young British guy, I think he's in his teens still, uh, somehow was online with an American young kid and encouraging him to, you know, to follow his suicidal thoughts. And this kid did go and kill himself, and now it's become a law uh you know, lawsuit against this other kid saying you're the one who told him to jump, and he did.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah, that's horrific.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

But that takes you back to you know your earlier narrative, Jonathan, in terms of nature versus versus nurture. If there is a significant predisposition and those elements keep layering and keep building up. I I'm certainly not defending that particular instance, but is he solely responsible for that death? Um yes, he might have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but there are 10, 20, 30 different compounding variables that have layered up to that moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Um and ultimately it's a solitary act, isn't it? And I mean, you take responsibility, I think, for saying today's the day, I'm over this, be me up Scotty, I'm ending it. And it that's your you it belongs to you.

SPEAKER_05 24:02

One of the most solitary acts, but I've not thought of it that way, to be honest. Um the ultimate isolation, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah. But I would also add in that as a trusted adult, as a teacher, as a parent, that if you use the word suicide, if you speak to someone and you say, Are you thinking about ending your life by suicide? that's being seen. Now, to your point, the the line when you have a greater number of people, but in a one-to-one conversation, not to shy away from using the word suicide, to get comfortable using the word suicide. Because then that if somebody was to say to me at that time, I would have smiled at asking me, no, no, no, no, no. But in the back of my mind, there's a seed that's been planted of they noticed, they saw me. And I may it may have made a difference. But yeah, I think definitely as a trusted adult, as a teacher or as a parent, not to shy away from using the word suicide because you're not planting the idea in their head. It's likely already there. But to your point, Jonathan, about reducing barriers, and that's where the press, media, social media do need to take a good look at themselves. Go, how are we contributing to this in reducing the barriers to enable and take action?

SPEAKER_05 25:22

Yeah, it's reducing the barriers to enablement rather than reducing the barriers to have those conversations. And there's a big delta between those two.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Beautifully put.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

Um because I think and and Jonathan, you know, you know the data much better than than I do. Mine's more anecdotal than than anything. Um but there is a thousand, a thousand studies or more that show very clearly talking about suicide does not incite the suicide. It helps, it opens up that expression, it opens up those channels of communication. Um, it doesn't normalize it to enable it, it normalizes it to disable it. Um, and that's a really important thing, talking about it and having those conversations, that being seen and heard piece, just to say, are you okay? That those magic words, are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I think you were raised with a stiff-up a lip, weren't we?

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Yeah, I'd love to ask about the magic words you use, actually. Because I now use like, do you have thoughts of harming yourself? Because that's a big bracket. And and and when I teach students how to approach this topic, I'm amazed how it's almost like they gag. They cannot say. It's just like it I don't know what cultural force is in their throat that means they cannot say, even have you had thoughts of harming yourself? Yet alone have you thought of killing yourself. Um but I'm curious, like what do you think are the best words to ask?

SPEAKER_05 26:55

So there is no there is no magic bond.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

I can imagine you do a lot of this.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

Um yeah, pretty much every shift. Yeah. Um so there's no, it it is very situational, it's very in the moment, it's very subjective, and it's you've got to listen to your body and what comes from your heart. Um It's one of the hardest things in training for help for the helpline and the hotline providers is to ask the question, are you feeling suicidal? And it is so hard. And you're a suicide hotline.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

How hard can that be?

SPEAKER_05 27:30

It is really hard.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

And Samaritans has been around for so long.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

56 years.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

Um, but it's hard. And the same when I'm at TSPP and training psychedelic, we do do that role play, encouraging them to just just say it out loud and say it out loud and say it. Because it doesn't actually doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's never easy. It's a really scary question to ask.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Like I've done, I mean, I one of the first times I asked it, it was textbook. Like it was, he answered this way, I therefore know I meant to ask. I'm like, I am feeling none of it. I am not feeling it in my body. But I did ask because I know that was and and he looked at me with disdain. It's like, no. And I knew I had created a little rupture in rapport. It was nothing bad. But the rest of my career, so it must have been more than hundreds of people to whom I've asked that question. I've never felt any sense, anything but neutrality or appreciation for asking. Absolutely. So I just I just wish we could ask that question more often. Especially like there's there's the demographic group of of young people, like teens, early twenties, but there's also older men. Men over the age of 85 have a very much higher uh risk of suicide, particularly if they're alone, particularly if they have any illnesses or chronic pain.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

But isn't that I always see that more as self-euthanasia rather than suicide. I mean, if you look at Hemingway, I don't know, I loved his writing. I mean, obviously he shot his brains out. You know, I think he had dementia, or he knew it was the end, a slippery slope. So kind of, you know, seven times more likely than women.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

I don't know. I think it's yeah, I think it's very sad. I think it's about belonging again, loneliness, like I'm irrelevant, I'm a burden. Completely.

SPEAKER_05 29:18

And that loneliness as you get older, yeah. You also see all your friends, you you literally see your support network dying right in front of your eyes, and that amplifies that loneliness profoundly. Absolutely right.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

I think those who have, when I've been with older people, and they they've been dying or died, those who've had uh community around them, people who genuinely cared as opposed to obligation or gosh, I thought when I go, I want to go like that.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

I want to go with with real friends. Um those who don't have, I think it's just a deafening, a deafening anxiety. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

It's universal, right? Whatever age and stage, having community around you, having friends, really true friends.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yes, true.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I probably didn't find my true, really, really good friends until like my mid-30s, late thirties. Right. Yeah. You know, it's not something that I had people around me, I had friends, but people who really get me, people who I was willing to share the troubles and the distress and the things I've experienced wasn't until much, much later.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

No.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

So for the young people, you don't have to have it all right now, even if you want it all right now, it will come and it will be okay. But I think it's a universal community is important, and we know that isolation increases depression and other health risks as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I'm also seeing now something, a trend going on in Europe, and and this makes me really sad because often it is kids who've been raised in abusive households, and there's been cases where you know they're in their early 20s and they they go and euthanize themselves because they say, I don't want to be here anymore. I you know, I can't cope with what I went through. It damaged me so much, I'm so broken. I'm electing to euthanize myself, and there's been cases and it's it is a growing trend. And I always I look at that and it I find it devastating because I do believe, you know, from personal experience, sometimes you just gotta hang in there and keep going because you know, as you said, the good stuff can come later, but it does come, and then you know, you find things that you want to be here for, and it starts outweighing the bad thoughts. And I think you even come to an age where suddenly, you know, you want to live forever rather than kill yourself, which is really strange. But it I think there is a point where your life has been filled with with much better things, but if you're ending your life through euthanasia so early on, you you don't get to see any of that.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

You don't get to find out what's possible. Exactly. And I think some of the early intervention work that we do is through giving the skills and strategies of problem solving, communication, decision making, these are like the skills that you can use, but also the idea of vision and goals and hope. I think that's such a big one, having hope for the future. You know, what's the impact I want to make on the world that I can make and having that future focus to your point at the very beginning when you're talking about gratitude and finding little tiny things to be grateful for. But it's not all doom and gloom. There are some glimmers of hope, even if they're just small at the moment, but holding onto them and then building them and growing them, what's possible now? Ooh, I would like to do this, or I'm interested in that, gaining that interest in the world, looking at what's possible ahead in the future. Because sometimes when you look into the deep dark abyss and you're like there's nothing there, then there's nothing to stay here for. But there really is there's something for everyone. And it they'll you'll find it in your own time.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

And I think also you just going you and you touched on it just then, Sarah, as well, is this the it only takes one small glimmer of hope. And a a trigger word for us on calls is hopeless. That's an immediate red flag for us. So trying to find one little one little scrap of hope that instead of the straw that breaks the camel's back, take that one little straw off and you're back to a different different place, and just slowly deconstructing step by step by step, um, piece by piece, you can move forward, but it's a long journey, an incredibly long journey.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

And it's not easy, is it? It's you have to really dig deep and and find that will to keep going. And you know, I guess we all find different things that do keep you going. I mean, for me, it was very much I didn't want to give my parents the satisfaction of knowing they'd completely broken me. And that stayed with me. Like even now. Yeah, it's like even now I feel like if I committed suicide, my mother would be secretly pleased or you know, she'd be kind of scavenging over my my will. And I don't want to give it a satisfaction, and so it's like that keeps me here.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

And whatever it takes, it's just you know, whether it's a distraction for the next 10 minutes while you're experiencing the most intense desires and the intense feelings, if you're distracted by music, which is probably more of an adaptive social thing, we've there are probably maladaptive coping methodologies too, but it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 35:09

Stay alive.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Stay alive because when you're alive, you have choice. When you're not alive, you no longer have choice.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

So stay alive, you have choices.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

And Sarah, what coping mechanisms did you discover that kept you going?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

For me, it was the journaling and the poetry. That was what got me through. Um I think the things that we teach or I teach the students now is beyond that. It's it is the gratitude, it's the glimmers, the hopes and visions, the also connection and doing that through physical health. So whether that's your physical movement and you're doing things, we have things like repeaters, so jogging, swimming, things that are repetitive and use a lot of oxygen, or uh inclusive games where you have that belonging, you're playing a game where you are included with everybody. Or is it stress busters and going boxing and using you know stress release? Do you have all of this energy and feeling, whether that's anger and rage, or if it's you know lower energy and it's sadness and loneliness, there's something to do with your body, or energizers like dancing, and that brings in the music piece as well. So just getting energy or circuit training. These are things that we bring into schools so that students can use what do I need right now? And then the knowledge of going, ah, okay, these are the neurotransmitters that are going off in it, my oxytocin, my dopamine, my endorphins that are being triggered because I'm choosing to go boxing or I'm choosing to do an energizer. But having the language and having the explicit knowledge of this is connected. When I'm physically active, I'm improving my mental health as well. When I'm mentally healthy, I'm making different choices. So it's all interconnected, it's not one direction. And to your point earlier, recovery is a roller coaster. It's never linear. It's not, oh, I noticed, and so now I'm better. It's the volume goes up. Oh, I have tools and strategies now to bring the volume back down. Oh, the volumes come up again. I'm noticing that stress is one of my triggers. Ah, okay, I'm stressed, so I'm going to do some breathing. I'm going to do some meditation. I'm going to feel my feet on the floor. I'm going to go for a walk. That turns the dial back down. I can't do that if I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. Yeah. And so I think teaching young people explicitly what to do, how to do, so that they can support themselves and make choices for themselves, that's close to my heart. And that's one of the things when I was struggling was I'm going to be a teacher. I'm going to be that person that helps someone else. And when you were saying earlier, I have spoken to children who have said I am harming myself. I've spoken to a seven-year-old taking getting him off the roof because he was seven and he was like, I'm done. So it's start early, parents, teachers who are listening, start early, giving the tools and strategies and knowledge to support yourself and to support your people around you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:21

It sounds like like um in the in the terrible dark cloud of suicidality and depression. One of the good things that's come out of it is a strong sense of purpose to try and protect other people.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Anything else? Any other like silver linings in that dark cloud?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

I wouldn't call them silver linings.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

No.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

I think the darkness is the darkness and it's the acceptance and integration of that. So I accept that yes, there's a part of me that will be drawn into the darkness.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

And that that will be there forever, mostly. I'm not going to get rid of it.

SPEAKER_04 39:01

That sort of gravitational pull to the darkness.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

And for me, it's episodic. It goes up and down. And I'm not even going to get into it.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Or is it like is it is it sort of like a biological thing or it's a social thing?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

I think it's perimenopause, personally. But that's another conversation to get into.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Yeah, yeah. Maybe maybe another episode.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

There's that aspect, but as I was growing up, it was definitely episodic. And your question was around not a silver lining, sort of the lemonade you made from an integration of this is me. And from that, I have this strong sense of purpose and desire to support and be with other people. And that's where my coaching, consulting, and the early intervention programs come in. That's the motivation, the passion, and the power. It's powerful. Right? And to be so low and to be so dark, that's a lot of power to bring it back up and out into the light. So I wouldn't say silver lining, I would say acceptance and integration. And taking the experiences and the empathy, bringing it out of the whole.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

So you were able to kind of metabolize some of that darkness into metabolize is probably a good word. Yeah, better than silver lining.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah. Silver lining doesn't really hit for me. But for some other people, it will. For some other people, it will, that metaphor will work.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Well, that's why I wanted to call this episode managing suicidal thoughts, because there are plenty of people who manage when the darkness falls and you feel drawn to not being here anymore. But you go through life and you find the things that pick you up, keep you going. And it's so important to find out for you personally what works because I think everyone is different. And you know, part of the reason I'm wearing my smileys today is I've got a lot of them going on in my house, my bath mat, my tables, I've got all the smileys are everywhere because for me it just cheers me up, make it reminds me to pull myself out of the darkness and being and being morose and smile, lighten up. Little things can can have an effect. And you know, personally, I've needed, I've learnt I need to stay busy. Being busy quells those thoughts. And I'm probably overly busy. I'm always someone who, from dawn till dusk, I'm non-stop. I juggle way too many balls, but I need that so that I don't have time to kind of be drawn into the other side. And you know, everyone has to work out what works for them and how to manage it, because you know, you can manage it. You can have a, you know, a great life, but and and still have these thoughts, but know how to put them in a box or or know what serves you when.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Yes, yeah, and when it doesn't.

unknown 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And I think I'm gonna sound like a broken record being like, because then you have choice. It's that choice to go, okay, this serves me in this moment. I'll continue. So being busy serves you in this moment. I will continue that. But it's a choice to be busy, not an unconscious habit or default compulsion to go. And then also you're not alone. A lot of people have suicidal thoughts. Not that they're gonna action them, but even if they're driving the car and they're like, I wonder what would happen if I drive into that tree. Or I wonder what will happen if I step out into the road right now. And it may be a fleeting thought, but you're not alone. And it doesn't make you a certain type of person. It just makes you a person that had a thought. And when you dwell on that thought and then you get hooked on it, that's maybe when you want to speak to somebody and just say, hey, I had this moment today where I was like, I was gonna step out into the road and I was gonna wonder what would happen if like the car hit me, what would happen to my body. And for somebody to go, wow, what a interesting thought, rather than with judgment. Because then the judgment tends to bring in the shame, and that's where the societal and family or the people around you can impact your mental health.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

I think it's very hard for people who've never had any suicidal ideation, any thoughts of suicide, to realize how common it is. It turns out at any one time, one in 11 people have suicidal ideation, thoughts of suicide. And and for those who've never had it, it's kind of like, huh? Really? That it's like you're a different species. Like, and yet it's so incredibly common. So if anyone if it's one in eleven at any one time, lifetime prevalence, I don't know what it is, but it's going to be a lot higher.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Um but that's why it's important to speak to the right people because if you're speaking to someone who just doesn't get it, kind of recoils from it, or says the slight bit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

The dismissal part of the dismissal part is really brutal. But I think a lot of it comes down to as well as recognizing in yourself those thoughts and then knowing what you're going to do about it, the coping mechanisms that you're going to deploy. And yes, there's that sort of the final ten minutes that you were talking about before, Jonathan. Um but as we there's there is a much more protracted build-up and frequent experience of suicidal thoughts before you reach that point. And one of the conversations that we will always pursue is understanding that window. How long have you been feeling like this? Oh, two years on and off. Okay. So what's kept you safe so far? So back to your point in terms of understanding what that individual's coping mechanisms are, what's worked for them in the past, what's kept them alive, and how can they lean back into them once they get aware of certain situations and how can they use that? And a lot of the time it is tiny things. Um it is, it's going for a walk, it's listen watching a movie, it's listening to music, it's writing something down. Um, in one case that I can remember, it we were an hour and a half into the call and and I heard a dog bark in the background. Is that your dog? Yes. And that was it. That was the turning point because it gave them that was their support structure. It wasn't a dedicated support animal or anything else like that, an emotional support. But it was something that was there for them that was non-judgmental.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

And also the thought of leaving them behind as well. That's it. You know, you're responsible.

SPEAKER_05 46:00

That hadn't occurred to them, but slowly that came out, absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yes. Yeah. And then how do how should someone deal with this when they're too afraid to talk to somebody?

SPEAKER_05 46:13

Um well, there's not a lot if they're not prepared to talk. There's only A, if they've picked up the phone to us or reached out to any of the other support structures.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Can you name some of them there? I think that might be quite useful.

SPEAKER_05 46:30

I mean, SOS is is primarily the at the heart of the suicide prevention infrastructure. Samaritans. There are a couple of others in terms of IMH and Mindline, but they will all tend to refer back in to us.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Um globally, Samaritans is the biggest hot.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

Yes, the biggest single organization globally. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

And one of the few that I think psychologists have a lot of respect for. Thank you for that. Well, I don't mean that to flatter you.

SPEAKER_05 46:58

But it's it makes a difference. It makes a difference that that we we work very hard, our training is massive, and the the initial training is over nine months long before you're let near a phone. So there's a lot of that goes on. Um but if somebody's picked up the phone, they want to talk. They might not talk now. You might have to wait five minutes, ten minutes on a silent line, but just hold the space for them and reassure I'm still here. Or they might hang up and call back in five days' time. But the fact that they've had the strength and the courage and the energy to pick up the phone in the first place, that gives us hope and gives the client hope as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

And I assume you have all age ranges calling you.

SPEAKER_05 47:56

Um as Jonathan, you've alluded to, there's this it's kind of an inverse normal distribution curve. Um so a very high prevalence of youth. Um sadly between 10 and 20 is a is a real spike. And then 65, 70, we start to see it, the curve picking up again. Um but it's all it's all ages, it's all demographics. Yes, there are cultural variations, there are race variations and lots of other things. But it's a universal, it's a universal challenge, it's a universal issue. Nobody is immune.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

And how does culture and religious beliefs affect somebody wanting to commit suicide?

SPEAKER_05 48:44

Um it varies enormously. So if we look at culture, different races, for example, so in Singapore, suicide is more common amongst Chinese than it is against Indian or Malays, for example. That's interesting. Um but the specifics of culture make it unacceptable or acceptable. They make it a sin in some ways, and that then takes you into religion again as well. Some sort of belief system is incredibly powerful. It anchors back into belonging, it gives you something to hold on to, but it can also be a barrier to conversation because it's perceived as a sin, because this particular culture has determined it's illegal or it's whatever. So culture can put up barriers or bring barriers down and make it more accessible. It's very, very variable.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

And I think it's important for you know for people to have empathy even if they don't understand it, because I do sometimes have people say, Oh, pull yourself together, you know, you're you're old enough now to be over your childhood woes, you know, you've got so much good things going on in your life. So I just feel that empathy is is so needed when people are having these feelings.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah, being a partner to them, not telling you, I'm gonna fix you, not saying I'm going to make things better for you or pull yourself together, sort it out. It's not that, it's just having somebody stand next to you and walk alongside you and be like, I'm here. I'm not gonna tell you to do anything, but I'm here if you want to talk, I'm here if you don't, if we want to go for a walk together, or even if either literally or metaphorically, just to stand next to and alongside without judgment, without conditions.

SPEAKER_04 50:41

I think it can be very powerful to hear someone's thoughts of suicide, you know. What are you thinking about? Tell me more about it. Because everything inside may be saying, no, no, don't do that, don't do that. Or you don't really mean that. I know, you know, we we try and block it in another person. But and and there's a reasonable concern of like, oh, you know, but if I'm with them in their thoughts, will I be subtly encouraging them? But actually, I think it's a very powerful thing to be to be spacious enough that someone can describe their pain and suicidality, their thoughts of entering death. And uh it's a privilege and and it's tough, but I think it's healing.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Sarah, what were your thoughts, you know, when you made your suicide attempts? What were the overwhelming thoughts hitting you?

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Relief. Honestly, relief, like, oh, thank goodness it's almost done. I don't have to deal with this anymore. And it was really interesting that I was with some friends the other day and we were talking about the emotion of hope. And my relationship to hope is extremely different to my friends. They're like, oh yeah, hope it's a really um, I hate using the words positive and negative, but you know, it's a really um it's a different word. The I the connotation is positive. And for me, I'm like, yeah, hope it's good. It's all right, but it's usually hope is connected to potential. There's potential for this, but then I also have a narrative around potential. You can go both ways. It's it's it's interesting how for me hope doesn't necessarily lift me up. Hope tends to be quite well, you know, I've got pathways. If you look at hope theory, there's pathways for me to get there, and I believe I can get there.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Hope can seem a bit vague.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah, it's just to me, it just doesn't have that uplifting experience that the people around me were like, hope and joy and connected emotions. And I'm like, yeah, hope. No, not sure what my point of that thing is.

SPEAKER_05 52:56

There's nothing to get hold of. It's very intangible.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

There's nothing to nebulous hang on to. And it's not even a guarantee, is it, that things will be alright. You know, there is no guarantee. There'll always be ups and downs, twists and turns. That's life.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

I'm like, it's hopeful, there's potential, and when it's not lived, not lived potential, that's frustration for me. So it's yeah. A bit random.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

I remember asking uh someone who had gone through a very protracted dark patch, like what kept him going in the darkest moments. And he said, uh, darkness is it can be like like water, like in in the dark, you know, you can't see anything. But if there's even a tiny bit of light in the dark, something will be reflected off the water. And he gave this analogy of like, even in almost darkness, you can see a reflection of light uh off water. And he and that that analogy just was what kept him going. I mean, it's quite an abstract analogy, but he's like, even in almost abject darkness, you will find some photon of light. And he's like, you've got to find it. You've got to find it, and you can't let it out of your sight. It was like such a such a darkness. And and and last I heard, he doesn't have the problem anymore, but it took him years.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Yeah, well, that resonates with me actually. Because for me, it's a lake. Oh, interesting. It's a lake. And sometimes the lake is dark and moody, and you can't really see anything, there's not much clarity. And other times it's beautiful, you can see the trees and the sunshine, and it's you know all roses. So there are times where the lake is it's familiar. In my sadness, it's familiar. In my loneliness, it's familiar. In my joy, in my enthusiasm, it's familiar. And it's somewhere that I keep coming back to, and it's one of the anchors that I have when I'm doing either a visualization or a breathing, or if I'm having a really tough time, I might go back to that lake and then I might write about it, or even create expression, paint it. But it's something that's very resonant for me.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Okay, well, we're entering the last few minutes. So what I would like to end on is a round of why is it worth staying here? Jonathan.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

I think when uh when darkness comes, we often look for what's the meaning in life. And I think it's perhaps not the right question. I think the right question is what what evokes a sense of life and engagement? And so if it's that little photon of light, if it's that smile from the kid who was in the NTUC, if it's whatever it is, it's what gives me a sense of life and engagement. And surely there are many things. Hopefully we have the eyes to see them.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Sarah. For me, I would say you may be a small cog in a really big machine, but that machine works better because you're in it.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

I'm not a million miles away from Jonathan. Um Sarah, you mentioned glimmers before. It's something that I carry in my life, and I'm always aware of and alert to. Just those little brief glimmers, those flashes of of life and hope and happiness and joy. Um and I do what I can to propagate them, but I also do what I can to make sure I'm aware and absorb them.

SPEAKER_04 56:49

I think Ali, we need to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Oh, well, for me, it's really has been a big journey. And you know, my journey started off very badly, and I really was in the depths of despair as a kid, but I have discovered if you keep on the journey, there is wonderful experiences out there. There's love, there's passion, you find things you're good at, you find new interests, travel. I mean, these are all things that if you end your life now, you'll never get to explore. And that would be a an immense waste of your precious time on the planet. And you know, I've I've come full circle with this. I never looked at life as precious when I was young, and you know, I had a bit of a wild twenties, and it's amazing I made it out alive because I, you know, I did lots of risky things because I didn't care if I died. But the older I get, the more I realize you know, it is precious and it's worth staying. And you've just got to find a way through the dark times and to reach out to people, whether it's the Samaritans, a school teacher, GP therapist, get the help you need. Just get through it. Okay, guys. Well, thank you so much for being here for this very important topic. If you or someone you know are contending with suicidal thoughts, then please, please talk to someone. As Dr. Jonathan Marshall said, it's very important for you to speak to. Your doctor, the Samaritans, Hotline, the Calm Zone website, and hotline a therapist, a teacher. Thank you for joining us today for this sensitive discussion on Ella Podcasts. If you do need to talk to someone, please, please go ahead and get the help you need. Keep going and don't let the dark win. And uh all sending you strength to stay the course, the ability to find many reasons to live, and sending you a very big hug indeed.