Why Breakups Hurt So Much (And How to Heal After Heartbreak)

Few things shake us as deeply as the end of a relationship. Breakups can feel like grief, rejection, confusion, and loss all at once.

In this episode of Ella Podcasts, we explore why relationships end, why some people stay too long, why others move on quickly, and what heartbreak really asks of us when love falls apart.

This is a deeply human conversation about attachment, hope, and the stories we tell ourselves when someone leaves. Because breakups are rarely just about one moment—they’re often shaped by unmet needs, fear of abandonment, changing identities, resentment, or the painful realization that two people are no longer growing in the same direction.

Joining me are:
 🔹 Dr. Jonathan Marshall – Psychologist and former professor
 🔹 Ina Hammer – Men’s emotional health and wellbeing coach
 🔹 Samir Kothari – Investment fund manager sharing personal perspectives

Together, we discuss:
 • why relationships really break down
 • how attachment styles shape love and loss
 • why heartbreak can feel like trauma
 • the role of social media in modern relationships
 • whether trust can be rebuilt after infidelity
 • what actually helps when you’re healing

Key takeaways:
• Breakups are rarely simple—even when the relationship wasn’t right
• Healing takes time and isn’t linear
• Missing someone doesn’t mean they were right for you
• Letting go often means seeing the relationship clearly
• You don’t have to rush your healing

Heartbreak can feel overwhelming, but it doesn’t last forever. With time, support, and honesty, it is possible to find your way back to yourself.

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✅ About Ella Podcasts.

Welcome to Ella Podcasts, a space where we openly talk about tough times and the struggles that come with them. Hosted by Ella Sherman and clinical psychologist Dr. Jonathan Marshall, this podcast shares personal experiences, feelings, and practical tools to help you cope and build resilience. 

We discuss topics like loss, grief, anxiety, low self-esteem, and life changes, offering support and understanding. Each episode includes insights from two special guests to help you feel less alone and find ways to face challenges with hope and a touch of humor. Join us for honest conversations that lift the weight off your shoulders and guide you through life's difficult moments.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. Listen to the greatest songs of all time, and many are about the devastation of a relationship ending and the trauma of a broken heart. Most of us at some point in our love life have experienced the enormous change that comes about when splitting up with a partner and have endured the unbearable, searing pain of heartbreak. And we've had to find the strength to move on with our life, even when you really don't feel like it and feel like you'll never get over it. When the great love of my life left, I played Paloma Faith's song, Only Love Can Hurt Like This, on repeat for a full year, driving myself and my neighbors crazy. So today I'm joined by Dr. Jonathan Marshall, a leading psychologist and former professor. He's a Stanford and Harvard University graduate. He offers perspective and practical advice to help men and women cope better and thrive. We also have here Inna Hammer, who's fresh from the plane from Dubai. And she's a men's emotional health coach and a well-being coach. She helps men discuss their problems such as divorce, recovery from relationships, confidence and loneliness, and the things that men often keep to themselves to achieve practical change. And we also have here today Samir Kathari, my co-host, my new co-host, who works as a fund who works as a fund manager for an Italian investment fund. And he hails from Texas and has a master's degree in science from the University of Houston. And Semir is here to share some of his personal experiences of heartbreak today. Okay, I shouldn't smile at that. It's a bit me. Yeah, that was a bit that was a bit weird. It's a serious subject having your heartbroken. So is love the main reason couples stay together or convenience? Or is it the fear of having to start over again?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I think we we arrive on the scene from this wonderful place in utero and our mother's tummies, our sense of oneness, and then hopefully we we sense a sense of being merged and connected to the love of the family. And and then that sort of dissolves as we leave family. There's some of that perhaps left behind. And we try and recreate it in a relationship. And so we can come in with all this incredible attachment, and and that may or may not be a healthy thing. And that desire to stay to retrieve what we had before uh can can be toxifying and and terrible when we break up.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

And women, men and women see the breakup very differently, right? So we're obviously ironically, we're the men are here and the women are on this side, but the the the the sort of the the dissection of and the assessment of the breakup is totally different between men and women.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Uh so I think we should cover that because I think uh it's diametrically opposed to each other, right? The women see the breakup. By the way, the your love of your life, is it with the the with the R?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Okay, all right. So I know this guy, but anyway, never mind. Um, but yeah, so women need a break, for example. They view it as I need a break, I need to find myself, I need to go to Bali or whatever, right? And men think of it as a job where you never give up. You you you get on back back on the horse again or back on the bike, and you get in the dating market as soon as possible once the breakup happens. And then there are like, of course, nuances in in between, but you know, in terms of the emotional damage.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

I think that's what a lot of women get very annoyed about that their former partner moves on so quickly compared to them. So I've learned in life that it takes me, I know it sounds very long, it does, it takes me always four years to fully well to get to the point where I'm ready to date again. Like I'm not saying I have I don't date in between then, but but just emotionally I'm not ready for like another serious relationship. And it's always been my pattern. I've noticed it's four years.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

And I always tell people, I always tell people like you gotta look at it as you know, if you've lost your job, you can't take four years to wait to get over it. You you have to start sending a resume out immediately, right? And I think dating is very similar. Uh now, saying this about women, I mean, a lot of women, you know, have that monkey branch syndrome, which is, you know, the red pill guys will always talk about that, that there's always a backup gum. Monkeys switch branches, they don't let go of the other branch until they get the the incoming branch.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

So women have that?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Women do have that. I think the modern woman, okay, uh, definitely has that. Uh, if you are an attractive woman, uh you get a lot of male attention. A lot of that is social media related, right? Which we did not have.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Us in a sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, but I mean, look, we were when we were growing up, we didn't have the social media attention. Attractive women now on Instagram have thousands of likes on a random picture that they and they're DM constantly, right? Uh, you didn't have that, say, even 10 years ago, right? It's become Instagram and Facebook have become dating sites.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

That doesn't necessarily mean you're ready to make it.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Okay, that okay. From an emotional perspective, okay, I agree. But from a practical, tactical standpoint, um women get way more attention than they did 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Getting attention doesn't do anything to your broken heart. And yes, we are going very off topic.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Well, well, it it it it it's related because women have become more desensitized to that, to that heartbreak, for example.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

I'd actually like to come back to this, because we have got some questions before we get to the heartbreak.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

All right.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

So if we're looking at reasons why people are splitting up, a big one I always hear is, oh, we're we've just grown apart. That's that's said so often. But is that a good enough reason to split up in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Statistically, it's money, it's finances, it's not growing apart. Growing apart is a is a is a is a subset of that. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Um I I I think people do evolve. And sometimes they're growing apart, and sometimes they're just evolving. And sometimes the distance isn't so far, but you've changed. She isn't who she was before, you aren't who you were before. Um, and acknowledging that and keeping up the communication so that you grow together uh rather than apart.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Is it realistic to expect to grow together when you've met someone? Say you've met someone in your twenties, yeah, where you know you are you are actually very young, you're at a beginning of so many things, the beginning of your career, beginning of really getting to know yourself, your likes, your dislikes, what you're good at. You know, how can you expect to be the same person?

SPEAKER_03 7:02

There's an enormous amount of changes that happened in that 10 years or whatever. But um, yeah, um it's not really.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

But life is evolving, Ella. I mean, we we are not in a static state to just, you know, so when you're 25, of course, when you're when you're 35, you're gonna be different, right? So that is that that dynamic change, you know, both sides have to sort of keep up with each other, right? That so, and I think the the going back to what you said about growing apart, you know, again, what is the underlying is what we have to discuss. Why does it happen?

SPEAKER_03 7:39

And is it evolve and change? You know, like, and there is this that I just remember this um thing that I read many, many years ago. Something about a man marries a woman expecting her never to change, whilst a woman marries a man expecting him to change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

That's not bad.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

That's very true. So women are always like, Oh, I'll change him. He's like this now, but I'll change him. You know, he's a project almost, you know. Uh whilst men they marry a young, young girl, maybe a sweet girl, and then like that's how you think she's gonna stay, but of course she changes, and and then yeah, then maybe they both have a shock. I don't know. Yeah, but um, yeah, it's um definitely people change so much. I mean, like decade to decade. So it's like, is it even realistic to think that you can grow around? I mean, it's inevitable. And then maybe one develops a lot or or you know, does a lot of things and the other is stagnant, and then you get this imbalance. You know, maybe they started out like this and then it becomes like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

But is the change, is it is these changes don't necessarily have to be detrimental to the relationship, right? I mean, right? So so you know, we're sort of focusing on you know that oh, it's changes and one moved to you know in a different direction. I don't think necessarily that's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

No, not not always, but but but it can be, you know, it's it's difficult when when one is changing more than the other, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

And and when people split up, it's very common people say that we grew apart, and it's exceptionally common to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

I mean it's like it's like that in friendships as well, isn't it? Like, you know, you can have a friend for 20 years and then it's like I don't really have anything in common with them anymore, you know. And you know, and there's nothing that happened or anything, just it just gone very different paths in life and different times.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I I I have I have a case study for you. So I'm at this I'm at this dinner in Hong Kong. Uh turns out it's mostly women, uh you know, 40s, uh all of their husbands are doing extremely well, okay. Uh and every one of them was teetering on a position of divorce, right? And that started to come up in the in the discussion. And I said to them, I said, well, you know, uh, what would what is the reason for this, right? I mean, like you he was okay and now he's not okay, you know, uh, and a lot of that going back to is social media, it's related, I believe, from what their answers were, that they were looking at stuff on social media and started comparing their relationship, right? Now, understand we're talking about Instagram, right? So, from a picture pictorial standpoint, they started to compare their relationships with what other people were doing and how other people are doing better than them, and their husband isn't as good looking as so-and-so's husband, or it's not making enough money that the other guy did. And this goes back to growing apart. You see, so a lot of these guys uh married these women when they didn't have money. Suddenly they have money, and this changes the dynamics, right? You're talking about growing apart, and I mentioned this before. You have to look at you can't just say a sort of blanket macro sort of uh uh statement saying, well, this is one of the uh underlying reasons, but the real underlying is something totally different, right? The growing apart is an excuse to justify the breakup. But what was actually the breakup? Was it infidelity? Was it financial issues? Was it um, you know, the kids or disagreements on how to raise children?

SPEAKER_04 11:19

You know, there's boredom.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Or boredom. Like a lot of these women are bored out of their minds. Yeah, right? They're just the kids have gone to college. Uh, they were a housewife their whole life, they're now at at a at a level where um, you know, they're multimillionaires essentially, with nothing much to do. And you get a bunch of these women in a room together, and it's a it's it's a self-sort of fulfilling prophecy on everyone hating on each other's spouse, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

But um, yeah, it's very common by the way. You'd be set about getting more and more, you know, uh wealthier, you know. They when they married, they maybe they were not wealthy, and then they get wealthier.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

What do you think happens to men when they realize when they become wealthy?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

When they become uh, you know, they come from nothing when they started out as a couple with nothing, and then down the line and over the years, the man has become very, very successful in his life. And I know that's something you've experienced. Yeah, so what do you think happens to be a good thing?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great and and I didn't want to bring that up because I wanted to be politically correct for your sake. But let me just tell you, in my experience, the guy uh wasn't able to get the woman that he actually wanted. He had to settle for a mid, sorry, for a mid uh mid? Mid-range, or mid, mid, mid, mid, mid, median quartile, okay? Um let where let's be honest here. Uh this is a major problem in uh with high performers in what in my experience. And now the guy is you know on business trips, you know, he's meeting other women. Um he may have a secretary that's better looking than his wife.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Um I've seen millions And because he's got money, now he feels so much he's he's much more bitter thanks.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

And this woman is bitter to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Well, let's hear from Inna, because I know Inna did go through this kind of situation. It would be good to hear a bit of your personal situation.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

It was a long time ago, but but yeah, I definitely saw a change uh from when you know um in the beginning when there was nothing, and then when success arrived, and it was major success. Major success and a lot of lot of changes in uh yeah, the the selfishness.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Um your husband did very well is financially sorry. And then he became more entitled.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, look, he's he's a good man or anything. You know, he's he's about the arrogance was quite unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

No, but what was the underlying?

SPEAKER_03 14:03

I think what we need to start scratching the surface is powerful, it's it's about power.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

All right, it's power, but how did that then impact your relationship dynamic between?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

I guess you're no longer equals, are you, when he's suddenly always become super successful, rich, and and you're still kind of the the housewife and you're not on that journey with him with his career.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

But I just I just saw some you know behavioral changes that you know, like he wasn't as as he wasn't as nice as he used to be, kind of kind of thing. So but look, he's he's alright, right. Um but yeah, that I definitely felt there was success had a lot to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Was he less respectful as well? Would you say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's uh which is money changes people, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I mean, we we know that money does change people.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Right? So so of course, okay, that's the can I make a uh uh just a comment on that dinner? Every one of those women was annoying as hell, okay? I would I was like God bless these men for dating, I mean, for still being married to this bitch, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Okay, Samir. What are you talking about? I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just about to hear the broken heart today. I don't think that's gonna be really helpful. We need to get back on that.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

You can edit that out if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Um let's go back to okay, so people when they split up and the heartbreak they feel, and Samir, I know you're Mr. Tough Guy right now, but I know I've seen you heartbroken.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I I I was with, you know, you know who, right? And uh because it was uh you know it was a big blow.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

It was more than a big blow.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

But it was, it was fine, it was the underlying again. See, so I have to be honest with myself to to look at so the perception for the other party was that the the finances weren't getting any better. Uh and that was the underlying, right? So we could she will say we grew apart, but I know what the reality was, right? The reality, and that's why I'm saying that we you when people tell you something like this, you really have to dig deeper to see there was an underlying cause and effect of something. And in our case, it was definitely her perception of what financial what financially where she should be as it relates to the man, right? She wanted you to have more money. Yes, correct. Now she jumped to a guy that didn't really have money, but it's a different issue. Um, but the perception was it, you know. For women, perception is everything, right? And we know women at some point dilute the the reality to to what fantasy is. Um, and that's how you guys think, where men are more critical in in their thinking and more strategic, where women are more sort of live in a sort of different parallel universe to men. And I think that uh impacts uh the modern relationship. And again, going back, social media is a huge cause of this breakdown.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

And Same, just to go back to your heartbreak, I mean, I know for years you were very upset about the breakup. And you know, I saw it that you were as much as you were putting on a brave face, I knew you were devastated. It was it was obvious to your friends that you were really suffering and it was a massive blow. So, how did you manage to move out of that space?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

I started dating a a Russian girl in Hong Kong, which helped.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Who was also a nut job, but it's okay, you know? You know, but you know, it does, it it helped. It helped, right? Uh getting back on the saddle. That's right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

How long did that take you?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Three months.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

But I mean, look, she's right. I mean, I'm sort of emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

I'm sort of rushing through this showing that yeah, but you might be dating someone else, but you were still emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

You you you it never leaves you, and depending on how serious the relationship is and what you've invested in that relationship, right? So this is going back to what she said. Um, you know, and a lot of women get hammered, as well as men, I think, but I think it's more of a female problem where you know you see this, you've invested X amount. Uh, and I think women are more devastated by that investment period and the disappointment of not uh Yeah, wasting years of our lives.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Whereas for men, obviously, we don't have a biological clock, it's a little bit easier. Um, I think Jonathan, I can see Jonathan from this corner of my eye. He's like, man, this guy really needs therapy.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

It's not just Jonathan listening.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

You know, I need to sign this guy up and write a book.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

200 sessions yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

So yeah. So yeah, I mean, it was devastating, but you know, how do you I think that the the the proof uh I mean the the the magic sauce on this is how you get over it.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Right now you can So what did you do to get over it?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I just started I got stuck in Ukraine during the COVID, right? So that sort of got me over it. Um how did that get you over it? Well, I mean, look, you you you started a new life. Yeah, well, that helped as well. But just you know, you're a totally different life, right? Uh you're you're divorced from anything that reminded you of that person from a from a physical standpoint, right? You're you're from a geography standpoint. But not everybody can you know leave town just because they've specifically, but but you there's a coping mechanism that is is probably unique to everyone, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Whether that's Yeah, so what did you do to carry to that? What I I just started going out with other women.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

I mean, I think that was the coping mechanism. I mean, you don't forget that person, right? Um, and you know, to make it worse, some of our friends reminded me all the time. Uh, our friend, we were in a in Macau, and I brought this new Russian girl that I was dating, and uh, he was very annoyed by her. And after she went to the toilet, said, Simur, could you please get back with the the other girl? Because you know, you're bringing this girl out and you're ruining our evening. Uh, so you know, your your friends are important as well. Can you get over uh these issues? Are your friends supportive? Um, and I think by and large, I think men are really supportive, right? I mean, it's it's us against them as usual, right? That that mentality, and I think that helps a lot. Um, I'm not sure. I think in the female world, I think it's a it's much harder, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And maybe women don't jump back on a saddle so quickly, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

I think we allow ourselves a bit more time to grieve, than to just grieve the relationship and uh um yeah, and come to terms with everything that you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

I think that I think Ina, there's a generational standpoint, there's a generational understanding from both of you. Uh, I think you would be super surprised at young women now on terms of getting over things. It is the gestation period of getting over is now almost nothing.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

How has that changed?

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Uh you know, how I think that's changed again, going back to social media again.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

I don't think these are people's feelings and emotions. I know, but how does that change?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Because I think social media w women are telling other women, and I've I've experienced this, get over it, move on. You you've got you know 20 other guys and would love to date you.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Go, go, move on with it.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

It's always been like that. But the human heart needs time to recover from a breakup. Because it's for me, it's always been the absolute most kind of earth shatteringly awful experience to have that heartbreak where you can't sleep, you're completely obsessed with that person, you know, you're kind of. Praying to every religion there is to bring him back to you. I mean, it's it's a horrible, horrible experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

You're showing a generational viewpoint of this. And it's societal.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Actually, I don't know. There might be something to what's so many.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I don't know any. No, but from a societal perspective, you know, girl boss, you know, this goes back to our previous discussion. I don't think that exists anymore.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

I think you're saying people don't love us intensely now. I don't I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

I believe that. I I think I think the the uh let's go back to my mother's generation, okay?

SPEAKER_03 22:40

So the are you saying that love was stronger before and now I think both sides.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

I think the the responsibility that men felt for for for a relationship, uh say 20 years ago, and the response and the and the the the love aspect of the emotional side that women felt 20 years ago and today is totally transformative now. It to and the gestation period now is just nothing.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

This I need to research. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

You watch all of the the the the podcast now, you know, the the red pill podcast with men talking about getting over breakups, don't cry over your thing, go to the gym, find another woman. Uh and I think from a female perspective, if you look at the female podcast, it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Girl, get over it. Start an only fancy. But it doesn't mean that it's happening inside of people.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

No, but when you listen to them, there is But that advice has always been out there.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I mean, when I've stood up with people, I remember Ina saying to me, Hello, you've got to stop thinking of him. Get out there, put yourself out there, start dating. Did I? Yes, you did. And uh, you know, that advice has always been there, but a lot of the time people can't take it because they're not ready to start dating again.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

I can imagine that relationships are not necessarily as deep because there's so much distraction. There's all this trendy and availability. But I think the attachment needs are probably, if anything, growing stronger. Because people are increasingly coming from homes that are broken. And so their early attachment needs haven't been met. So they grow up insecure in some ways. They can be insecure or avoidant, which means like, I I don't like admitting my needs or preoccupied, like, oh, do you love me? Do you love me? It's like, yeah, I told you that 20 minutes ago, why are you asking me now? That these attachment needs are probably, if anything, growing deeper. And so the heart of someone's abandonment, I'm gonna just guess, I don't know any research on this, would if anything be stronger. But there's a lot more distraction and there's a lot more ease at jumping ship and it's transactional now versus you know, uh maybe a generation ago. But I think an abandonment, a rejection, uh, an infidelity will cut as deeply and possibly more because that that attachment need is, if anything, stronger, I think.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, so so I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm not contesting that at all. What I'm contesting is a digestation period of that.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

So maybe can we move on? Because this is meant to be a podcast to help people recover from heart. Okay, all right, okay. So I really would like to focus on that.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

I've got I've got theories on that too.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Okay, I'm sure you do. Theories on everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

But um, yeah, so so Jonathan, I mean, there are people who stay in relationships for way too long because it's too difficult to leave.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Um and and some who move too quickly. And again, it's those attachment needs. It's like the avoidant person is uh, oh my god, she's been looking at her phone multiple times this evening. I think she's going to leave me. I'll I'll jump the gun and break up with her first. Uh and and and then there are those who stay on and on and on when they should have left years ago. Yeah. And again, that issue of early attachment is incredibly important and and valuable to understand. How do I attach to people? Because the way you attach to age five has a lot to do with the way you attach age 50.

unknown 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

So why do you think some people do stay way longer than they should?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

They often they have an insecure, preoccupied attachment style. They're like clinging, they're hoping.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

It's hoping, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yes, it's it's that the that the fear of abandonment, and then where will I be? And then there'll be nothing left of me, and and I'll be all alone and never found attractive, and that'll be the end.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Or just hoping they'll change, they'll they'll they'll they'll i things will go back to where they used to be. Is that is that I think women are very good at hope, you know, they just they just keep hoping and hoping, you know, even when there's actually no hope there.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

And then couples have a history, and I think that also bonds people. So even if they are in a really bad place, like yeah, but we were childhood sweethearts, or we met at university, and it there's that story of their lives. And it's like we've been together for 20 years, 30 years. Why would we split up now? So I think there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

So I think there's that's a lot of this uh, oh, people give up so easily these days. I don't know, actually. I think maybe people stay too long. I mean in most cases, I think they I mean certainly I did in both both my marriages. I I totally stayed longer than I should have done. Um that's because you were giving it your all and trying to say that. Yeah, yeah. Uh so um, well, especially in the second one. So, you know, and you know, I wasted years of my life doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

So from a from a clinical perspective, so so you've got a group of high performers that may have marital issues, may have broken up with their their wife or their husband. What would be your advice to them to get over, for example, this breakup? And then your then you please also give your your views on that because you're you're looking at a totally different demographic of you're looking at mostly men, right, in your practice. And you're looking at both men and women, but you're looking at at you know your initial um sort of your primary concern is their career, but that must be the the breakup with a with a divorce, for example, has impacts on their performance, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

So yeah, I do uh yeah, performance and well-being, so both, but um it seems to me like when people break up, they're often so full of ill will. It's like I hate her or I hate him. And and that they don't they're not over it until that's gone. And that might be yours, or it might not.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Until indifference says it.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Actually, I would go one step further. I would say when you can regard the person with no more hostility than an average person, which is often you people, you know, then then you're over it. And so, like one guy explained to me, he was devastated to discover his girlfriend was having an affair. Uh and he said, it wasn't until I could genuinely wish her happiness that I knew I was over it. Uh, and and I think that's the litmus test. How do you so it's your own inner work? How do I examine and cope with my hatred for my partner or my general sense of hostility? That I think, you know, and often that's a lot of personal work.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

And a lot of people never get to that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

A lot of people never get to that.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah, but how do you get them over that line?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah, that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

No, but is there is there is there, I mean, I assume every every individual is has a different sort of formula, formula. You use a different formula, but if you had to choose one one way to do that, how would you how would you do that with your client?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Self-care and forgiveness, like forgiving yourself. You know, how was I so dumb to date her? It's like, how do you forgive yourself for that? How do you understand where is she coming from? Why might she have done that? Like try to see it from her perspective. Um, and and then sort of how do I look after myself in my my fury and my pain and my fear, my sense of abandonment and worthlessness exercise. Uh do the do the ground strokes, connect with people, those basic things to look after me, but also to uh not create a simple black and white hostility.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Do you think people learn from their mistakes or do they go exactly back to the I think we tend to go back to the same mistakes an awful lot?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I think we learn slowly, is my guess.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And I've seen a lot of my friends divorce their first husbands after many years and then rush into another marriage, and then that ends. And then I've got a friend who's just married for the fourth time. Maybe she shouldn't be well I can Is it he or a she? It's a she, and I unsubtly said to her, don't you think you're maybe not good at marriage? No, but you know and it's another white dress going down the aisle, but number four. But uh yeah, it's like do people even learn from their mistakes or just pile back in and repeat the same experience?

SPEAKER_03 30:43

But it's sad if they if you don't learn from uh from you know, if you don't have a lot of self-reflection, and I mean it after a breakup, surely that's when you need to really go inside and have have a lot of reflection.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

What about you? So Jonathan gave one example of I mean, obviously it's subjective to the individual. How would you in your practice advise a guy that has just broken up? What what what would you what was that one thing that you would tell him to focus on? They're never getting back together. Let's let's hypothetically just yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

I don't think that's a one thing though. No, it's not just one thing, but uh uh acceptance. I mean, you you have to accept that it is what it is, and that you can't go back, you can't change the past, you have to move forward. Um so yeah, I think uh just accepting that there's been a break and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

It's so hard for many people because you're kind of secretly wanting someone to come back and holding out for them.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

It's like it's not happening. It's you know, it is this is it. This is it.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

It's so hard to convince people. Like so one person I know believes that because of their past life connection, he will return to her. It may be 10 or 20 or 30 years from now.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Or in the next life.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Yeah, and there she is like holding back for for this man to one day come back. I'm thinking, whew, that's a tough one. Yeah, we've heard that before. We've heard that before. Okay. Yeah, I'm looking at you.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Yeah, but there's a karmic bond and all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

But there's a Hinduism element to this as well. I mean, you live in Bali, right? I mean, you or some of it, whereas where in Hinduism, you you know, you're the day you're born and the day you die is written. And in between, there are um sort of forks in the road, or there are options for you to to follow. And during that path that you take, you are destined to meet people, right? And so, you know, uh, I think you're you're from a spiritual standpoint, you're seeing people actually believe that. That I met someone, and that's where you're going with this, right? With this comic or this this spiritual element to it that you know we were meant to be together or we'll be together again or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:51

That's when people feel intense love, and it is a it's a special connection, and that's why you feel like someone's your soulmate or someone's your twin flame or whatever it may be. I mean, it's just an undeniable magic connection, and you know, it's rare. I mean, that's the other thing. You know, you don't come across people every single day that you're going to fall madly in love with, feel great passion with. So it is, it is like a the most magical feeling in the world. When it comes down, it is the most devastating feeling in a world because you've you know the magic is you you still may feel completely connected to that person.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Where you've kind of finally attached, it was so nice to merge, and then you're on your own.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Sure. Um very much is I told myself that love is a choice because I was saying thought thoughts become emotions, and I am in control of my thoughts and love is a choice, and I would like to say like I am now going to choose to love you no more because I needed I needed to do that for my own self-respect, and you know, um, and that actually really worked for me. Um I I decided that it's a choice, love is a choice, you know, like that just like liking someone, you know, you know, you might like someone, you might not like someone, you know, but you you you kind of choose it, right? You choose not to, you know. So either that and don't have to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yeah, that's that's a mentally pretty tough thing to do, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

But I did it. No, no, I know, I I know, I and and good for you.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah, people say to me it's like, oh my god, most people won't be able to most people won't be able to have that mental toughness to say, you know, and wake up one morning and and you know, affirm that okay, it's over, you know, I'm gonna move on. It's not easy. It's like I I would I would say the three of us here are not that tough for sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Yeah, I I am quite resilient, but uh but that was uh definitely uh the way uh the way I got over it. It's like yeah, no choosing. And it's different depths. That everything is a choice. That everything I do in life is a choice. So you know, that's what I was Do you think some people feel love maybe more than others?

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Because I know I'm terrible for you know, I've lived my life having great loves and then great tragedy, and it's always the great love is always felt on a biblical level. Like it's it is like the movies, it is that how have you gotten over it? You know, the Bronte movies and the sweeping love and the great love, the epic love. I don't know if if I ever have got over my great loves.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I know, I mean, we know each other well enough to think so?

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's three in my life that I look back on and they still make me really sad if I look back, if I see a photo pop up on the phone, you know, it still makes my heart.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

You've done much better than you know, a year ago you were a while ago. Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

And that's time, and it's taken a long time to get to the stage where I feel ready for the next person. Yeah, yeah. I'd have to be like sleeping. I just feel more annoyed that I wasted all this time of my life. I know, but it's not necessarily something you can time. Um everyone's different. Yeah, yeah. I've known people who've you know brushed themselves off a couple of months crying and they're back in there and they're fine. I just can't operate like that, you know. It's it takes me years, but yes, eventually you get to a stage where you can put yourself out there again. But I still think if if he was back, I'd be straight back in it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

But you know, by the time the breakup happened, I mean, were you still feeling in love and like you loved him and and all that?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, it wasn't from from i i I know this intimately because she's obviously told me it wasn't she wasn't the the instigator of the breakup.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, no, I understand. Well, if anything, it was COVID. Yeah. So he was trapped in another country when COVID happened.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Oh, yes, I know.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

And it ended up being two years out of the country, and in those two years he met someone else. So it was it was a weird ending because it wasn't really an ending, it was circumstances. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. So I think that was probably a big part of the problem with that.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

The Wuhan lab was the cause of your breakup.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

That's right. I'm suing them for losing the great love of my life.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

You can do that now, you know. Can I?

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah, sure you can. You're on.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

You can sue you can you can also uh uh sue Tony Fauci for funding it. Tony said a whole different thing. Tony broke my heart. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

But uh I guess everyone's different with how they handle it. Oh, they are absolutely and I do remember you got divorced from your first husband, and I was still kind of doing my kind of half-hearted dating, and before I knew it, you're on to husband number two, and I remember saying to you, Oh my god, how do you do that? You know, I was I admired it. And you said, It's because you're too fussy, and is that what I said? Yeah, and it's like, well, you're probably right.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

I wasn't too fussy, I surely didn't think.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Yeah, you did. You said you're too fussy, but you you were right, I am. And uh for a long time I would go on dates. I'm sorry if I said that because I would go on dates and I'd always be comparing them to the air. Compare the problem, you know. It's like and no one was good enough because it wasn't him.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

That's a very it's a very female thing to do. Yeah, I think men are not so uh driven by the previous relationship.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Right? I think I think as as women, yeah, I think you can agree that the the the the the relationships tend to be, in my opinion, for women, it's almost genetic imprinting. Whereas, and that's why it's difficult to to to you're almost imprinted genetically by that relationship. Whereas men uh are able to move on much faster because there's not that level of genetic imprinting.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I'm not sure. I think men are more likely to suicide after a breakup than a woman is. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Wow. Statistically? Statistically. Wow, okay. That that's that's shocking to me that I would assume that it was the women that would have been the one.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah, I think women are more likely to attempt, but men are more likely to kill themselves.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, suicide is not a big thing for women, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yes, it's big for them.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I mean, not relative to men, right? It's it's uh sure there's women attempt more, uh, but men succeed more. No follow-through, man. Come on. Come on, girls.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Stop that, Samuel. Right, that's been edited out. Um and then a lot of relationships do break down because one of the spouses cheats on the other. So infidelity is a big factor for breakups. Do you think you can ever recover from infidelity? Or is it does it mean it's over if he's he or she is already strayed?

SPEAKER_03 39:56

I think you can recover from it. I think you gotta be realistic. And that like when you marry someone, and if you if you're gonna if you're thinking about most people when they get married, they think it's gonna be forever. And uh and then is it realistic to think that your partner will never be attracted to someone or yourself? You will never be attracted to someone else and fall for temptation, and you know, when life has gotten boring and stale, and you know, when things aren't fun, it's like, come on, you know, I don't really believe in marriages actually anymore. You know, um because I think they have a shelf life, and I just don't understand why why do people want to involve the government in their in their relationship? And like, and I also I love this this thing with would you board a plane knowing it had a 50%. 50% yeah, yeah, that's right. I've heard that one before.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, that's yeah. No, you're gonna be able to do that. That's a good point. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

The the a divorce rate in the US is sits at 56%. So why are people getting married?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

In places like Ukraine and Russia, it's even higher. It's like 60, 70 percent.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

And then second marriages are are in their light 80s percent of something failure.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

It's because we're still fed those fairy tales as a little kid. Yeah. The happily ever after, you know, the prince meets his princess. It's just it it indoctrinated into us. It is that this is the ideal, this is what we all deserve.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

The other thing is that you know, divorce was from a societal perspective, not an accepted uh, you know, when I got my divorce, I think I was the second divorce in the family history, going back maybe a hundred years. Wow. Right? So uh I think it's an it's an accepted way of exiting something now that it wasn't, say 30, 40, 50 years ago. That's one thing. Two, I would just say something controversial, which is uh woman cheating, can't can't uh accept it. You you move on. Man cheating, there's some, there's there are 50-50 on recovery. When a woman cheats, uh it's serious shit. You you're gonna be able to get it.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Men can't get over it, is that what you're saying? Well, men are women are emotionally attacked.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Yeah, the the woman has essentially uh physically and emotionally betrayed you in a way uh and it's a it's a way of getting back at you for whatever reason uh they want to make up.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Uh and the recovery is not possible.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

You're saying that women cheat because they wanna it's a spiteful, it's a spite fight, spiteful response. Really? Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Could it not be just because they're attracted to someone else? Because some oh come on.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

No way, no way. You need to you need to hire me as your your therapist.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

No way, no way, no way. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Okay, I'm generalizing to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

You're living in a boring, uh stale marriage, and then some dude comes along with it.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

You can't accept that you can't accept that, and then I've seen it, I've seen it too many times with not only myself but my friends.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

So okay, so why do men cheat then?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

I think uh for fun.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

For fun.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

And it's not they're willing to just throw away everything they have to do.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

They don't think that they're gonna get caught. It's a it's a it's in the moment. Whereas a woman doesn't cheat in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

Women are a lot better at cheating.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Because they lie, Gwell.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Uh men also lie, but they're just not so good at it. They're just not as good at at hiding their tracks.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

That's you see, so that there you go. Women have planned it out, and then not necessarily the it occurs, or it's it's it's much more of a planned uh, women are tedious coming. Yeah, yeah. Women are much more planned in terms of cheating or infidelity than men are. No, it's a transaction, it just happened.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Yeah, why can't it that? You know, how do you know that doesn't happen with women as well?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Because I know a lot of women, and I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

You're telling me. Yeah, I'm telling you, we're the same. You're telling me.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I'm talking about no, but you know, again, I made I I I put a disclaimer when we started this podcast about the generational differences. You guys are from a different generation.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

No, we are all the same.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

No, no, I know, but as you women are different generation from the women that I'm talking about today. Okay? The women of today are, as I mentioned to you, your generation did not believe in divorce, even though you got you got it.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Excuse me. How old do you think we are?

SPEAKER_00 44:32

No, we're the same age, but you know, when we were growing up.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

I'm still thinking even if you're getting married at 22 today, you're not getting married thinking, oh, this will probably end in divorce. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

I'm talking about we all know it will, but I'm talking about the the the the route to the exit or the route to infidelity. We're talking about heartbreak and breakup, right? Infidelity is one of the key drivers to that, right? Whatever the underlying is finances, or you know, he you got bored or drew grew apart. But I'm just saying that the the younger generation of of women um don't find it a taboo. Uh plan much better. And again, I'm gonna say it over again. Social media is a driver of this ability to jump in and out of relationships. Um and that that's why the the there's an epidemic of this breakups.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Yeah, but I still think if you're nursing a broken heart, then you're not just gonna jump onto a dating app and everything's okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

It just Society's telling you to do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

It may well be telling you to, but your heart is an emotional. Or you don't need a man or whatever. And you know, I've heard it breakups described as like a psychological injury. It's that it is it's that harsh the experience. It's trauma, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah, massive trauma, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

And uh, you know, I look back on my life and you know, right now I'm at a stage where I am, I'm very reticent to get back into you know a great love affair because the amount of pain in the end, I I don't know if I can put myself through that again. It was it is that's if you could die at a heart, I would have died by now.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Yeah, really it's quite sad that you would like avoid a new relationship just because you're scared of what may be on the other side. I know, and I keep saying that.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

That's also something sensible though, you know, in terms of I I think so, in that you know, am I at a place where I can handle what it what a relationship might involve? And that includes the breakup. And if I'm like not in a place to handle a breakup, maybe I should think twice about jumping in straight away. You know, Jonathan, you're a very calming voice.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Not listening to a word you're saying. Yeah, but I do feel calm. You know, I'm serious, it's very voice. Yeah, there is I just get get it uh on a on a on a on my phone. Maybe that's why he he's a psychologist that you're not getting away. Not a well-liked person. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Okay, another question, a big one. Should exes stay friends, or is that emotional self-harm?

SPEAKER_03 47:11

I think you can get to a place where you can be good friends because like after all, once upon a time you you loved each other and you might have children together, and you know, like it's just like you used to have a friendship, so if you can manage to not have such a nasty divorce or something, then sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

I mean, I've seen many people who have are good friends with their exes, but a lot of people you hit the nail on the head when you said nasty divorces because of most of my friends, because sadly most of them have divorced by now, yeah, and all of them have had nasty divorces without exception, and it does definitely create.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

I always say there's no such such thing as a pretty divorce.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah, yeah, but I mean she brought up a very good point, children.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

You know.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Okay, so so I have a a family member that's gonna go through a divorce, and the consideration is uh I know her name is Ina, by the way. I just said she, and then yeah, because I I didn't forget your name.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Um so so the cons the consideration of keeping in touch and keeping it civil is primarily for the children's sake. Now, if you don't have kids, you should not be in contact with that person. Just that's goodbye and goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

If you see them, you can be civil. If it's in a some people are in the same social environment, okay, fine, you can be civilized to that person, but you need to move on. You you can't be let's go for brunch and stuff like that, like in the movies. No, no, that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

I think it depends. I think many people like after a relationship, you know, after the whatever sort of spending time apart, can be very good friends. One guy I know said, you know, we've got sex out of the way. Now I'm not trying to pursue her in that way. And it's like, you know, now we can have a real friendship because that is no longer part of the equation.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Well the attraction, they still like each other, but the attraction just isn't there anymore. And if there's if it's like that for both parties, yeah, why can't they be friends? I guess.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I think this is a very western way of looking at it. I think it I think there is a cultural thing. I think it's a cultural thing. Yeah, uh, I think if you go to Asian cultures, I think the the there is no quarter given once the the Yeah, I might have noticed that. Yeah, you know, and and particularly if there's a big settlement involved, you've already paid paid the I was gonna use another word, uh, the woman. But uh and now goodbye, you know. Yeah uh the only time you do have interaction is if there's a child involved. Yeah, and even then it's very, very less in terms of direct contact. You wouldn't want to meet that person in a bar or a restaurant or wherever. Yeah. I think that's a very you're you're both of you or three of you are very Western in your assumptions.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Yeah, no, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah, but I mean I grew up in the US, but I mean, you know, you know, culturally uh Asians don't kind of buy that.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Yeah and then Jonathan, a question for you, which is close to my heart or my experience. Why do people miss someone who treated them badly?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Often it's because they feel seen. So if I think I'm worthless and you treat me badly, well then you've seen me. Yeah. Because because you've seen my value, that I don't have it. You treat me badly because and so we all want to be seen. So if then you're not no longer in the picture. Well, there's no one to affirm.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Like some attention is better than none.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Well, no, even bad attention is better than good. Oh, right, right, right. So if I think I only deserve bad attention, you give me bad attention, well, you've seen me. And that is so attractive. I want to be seen. And so if I have high self-esteem, well, that's disgusting. I don't want to be with you. But if you if I have low self-esteem, it speaks to where I'm at. And and so, yeah, we're gonna miss that thing that we had. And sometimes it's because there's just something there, even though I was treated badly. I I loved him for this reason or that reason. There was some other reason to be connected, even if I have high self-esteem. There's a suggestion, like there's a something called limerence, the idea that there might be even a biochemical change. I was just about to say, yeah, and that's very hard to understand.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

I remember you saying to me actually, you've got you've got a bad case of limerence. And uh I think you were you're so is it is there some kind of a hormonal? Yeah, we're gonna be wrapping up. So I want to get on to the last question. Does time really heal heartbreak, or do we simply learn to cope with the pain of a broken heart?

SPEAKER_00 51:22

I think both can be true at the same time, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

I think time is a great healer, actually. It is time. I mean, it's such a cliche, but it does work. I mean, it's a bit of time.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Yeah, I think that's right. I really agree with Samir. Time like sleep, REM sleep helps us heal wounds. And uh time, time is an incredible healer, much as when we've just had a heartbreak, it's hard to believe that time will make a dent.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

And then a few years later you think, what on earth was I even you know thinking about? And like why was I so upset? You know?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Dating someone else and some whiskey also helps, as as we know.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Yeah, and I'd say like, so my my one one liner on that would be um knowing what it is that you're what where is the real pain? Oh, it's a fear, it's my abandonment, and being present with that, but not too press, don't get obsessed with it.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Um I'm curious, Elle, if you had one tip for people in in Heartbreak, what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Something I have done, which was recommended, is to, you know, right, I know it sounds awful, but to write down that person's negative traits, you know, all the things they ever did that was wrong or hurt you or was not good about them. And when you are getting into that kind of fantasy, you know, looking back with your rose-tinted spectacles, start reading that list of all the things that weren't right, which will kind of bring you back to the ground because I think we do tend to reminisce looking at the positives, you know, you forget the bad stuff, you remember the good stuff. So having that little list to refer to can help just cut out that reminiscing, which is not healthy.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

But it goes back to what Jonathan said, which is you need to focus on yourself, right? So whether that's and you've been doing that, you've been doing a lot of stuff, a lot of you've you've got a lot of new hobbies. This is one of them, obviously, but you you you have kept yourself busy. He was talking about exercise or or or or tennis or whatever, you've done it in a different way. But I think that I think that is uh the key, right? It's not so much writing down, although, because we are always gonna look at the the the the sort of rosy side of the the relationships, right? Yeah, all right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

For me, it was keeping myself uh uh with connected with friends, right? I mean my friends. Right at the end of the day. No, not but busy, but like my friends were just my rock, you know. They were they were that's what I needed. I needed friends, you know, to lean on.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Well, thank you guys, we're out of time. I'm just gonna do my closing now, but uh thank you so much for for being here today. And I think that's a great question.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Uh so thank you all for joining us too on Ella Podcasts. Heartbreak is such an overwhelming and terrible experience, such intense, profound agony. But we humans are resilient and we learn to nurse our broken hearts back to life. Don't let a failed relationship stop you from finding love again. It's out there. Be brave and start dating. You could find a new love and feel joy. Love and passion are the greatest human experiences in life. So pick yourself up and dust yourself off and get out there again. If you want to suggest a topic for our next episode, please join our Facebook group at Ella Podcasts and message us. Please rate and share this podcast and subscribe to our channel, sending you a big loving hug.