Addiction Explained: Is It a Disease, a Choice, or a Response to Pain?

Few issues affect as many people, as quietly and as deeply, as addiction.

In this episode of Ella Podcasts, we explore the reality of addiction — not just as a behaviour, but as something far more complex. Is addiction a disease, a choice, or a coping mechanism? And why do some people recover, while others struggle to break the cycle?

From alcohol and drugs to social media, work, gambling and even exercise, addiction can take many forms - often hiding in plain sight.  

Joining me are:

🔹 Dr. Jonathan Marshall – Clinical psychologist and former professor
🔹 Nick Jonsson – Executive coach specialising in addiction recovery and behavioural change
🔹 Avni Martin – Leadership coach and inner transformation specialist

Together, we unpack the psychology, biology and emotional drivers behind addiction — and what it really takes to overcome it.

💬 In this episode, we discuss:

* whether addiction is a disease, a choice, or something in between
* how trauma, pain and unmet emotional needs can drive addictive behaviour
* why addiction is often less about pleasure — and more about escaping discomfort
* the role of dopamine, habits and environment in reinforcing addiction
* why some addictions are socially accepted (like alcohol) while others are criminalised
* whether you need to hit “rock bottom” to recover — and why that idea may be misleading
* how relapse happens and why it’s often part of the recovery journey
* the importance of replacing addiction with healthier structures, habits and community
* how stigma, shame and judgment can prevent people from seeking help
* the difference between high-functioning addiction and visible breakdown

⸻

🔑 KEY TAKEAWAYS

* Addiction is rarely just about willpower — it often has deeper emotional roots
* Trauma and pain can significantly increase vulnerability to addiction
* You don’t need to hit rock bottom to start recovery
* Healing often requires addressing emotional, mental and physical layers
* Community, connection and support are critical for long-term change
* Replacing habits — not just removing them — is key to recovery
* Relapse doesn’t mean failure — it can be part of the process
* With the right support, change is possible for most people

⸻

Addiction isn’t just about substances or behaviours — it’s about what we’re trying to escape, avoid, or feel.

This episode is a reminder that behind every addiction is a human story — and that recovery begins not with judgment, but with understanding.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcast. We're surrounded by addiction. Most people are touched by friends or family who are addicted to something. It may be to alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, work, social media, exercise, or even hoarding. Is it a disease or decision? Is it down to chemistry, trauma, escapism, or enjoyment? Why does society treat some addicts like patients and others like criminals? Do addicts need to take personal responsibility and face their demons? If you're an addict, where do you start on your healing journey? Here to offer tried and tested strategies for understanding and overcoming addictions are Dr. Jonathan Marshall. He's a top clinical psychologist and a former professor. He's a Stanford and Harvard University graduate, and he offers perspective and practical advice to help people. We also have with us today Nick Johnson. And thank you so much for joining us. He's an exceptional executive coach, supporting leaders and teams in building resilience, trust, and sustainable success. After Nick's own journey of overcoming his personal addictions, he became a powerful voice on addiction recovery, mental well-being, and change. And I've been to some of Nick's conferences around the world, and he's a great speaker. We also have here today Aphney Martin, and she's accredited to the International Coaching Federation and trains executive coaches. These leadership coaches go on to help people improve the way they live and work. So our first question for today, and this is for Jonathan, is addiction a disease or a series of bad choices?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

There's a lot of debate about that, but I imagine it's a bit of both. The first time you try something, it's almost certainly a choice. What then happens is often a change in the brain and the body, which makes it much less of a choice. It makes it much more of a something closer to a disease. Now, some people are born with a predisposition to mean that when they have that first drink, it'll evoke something in their body which will make it more of a disease. But it's something between the two, I think.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

And Nick, what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Well, there's many schools of thoughts on that, is it a disease or not? And I I think for someone who's suffering from addiction, it can be quite good to have an explanation for it. And many times when someone hears that it's a disease and they can sort of forgive themselves that they got this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah. And uh on that subject, Nick, so when you hit rock bottom, um, is that really the starting point of recovery?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Well, we shouldn't have to go that deep. Um hopefully, you know, we have recovery systems up and uh we can be more open and vulnerable with our family, with our community, and also at work. And if we are that, then hopefully through coaching conversations, we are grabbing these um, should we say, addictions when they are still bad habits, and we can then uh U-turn it in my case. I had to unfortunately hit rock bottom before I had that turn.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

And there's a lot of people who you know who, you know, are probably alcoholics, but they they manage it. So they they seem to weave it into their day-to-day, and they're still performing, you know, leadership roles. And I mean, I've known hospital surgeons who uh have addictions, but they still manage to perform their surgeries and be regarded as a top surgeon. But you know, that there are those people who seem to be able to cope while being addicted to something, and then others don't cope so well.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

I think like I mean, for those like Nick, who sounds like had a very difficult experience of hitting rock bottom, it's not required. It was the concept that became popular in the mid-60s, popularized by Alcoholics Anonymous. And then there's like, well, there are people who have high bottoms, they they you know don't have to hit rock bottom. And the research, most recent research, shows most people give up an addiction well before hitting a rock bottom. And ultimately rock bottom is death. Uh so I think it's a it's a it's a misconcept. There are some people saying, well, I haven't hit rock bottom, so I'm not gonna make a U-turn now. It's you don't need to hit rock bottom.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah. And if trauma drives addiction, where does personal responsibility come?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, so many of the people that I'm working with now, and as it happens, most are men, they haven't hit, should we say, rock bottom yet. But something has happened in their life that makes them take responsibility. Most of my clients come to me after the wife is calling me, and they wife has kicked them out, and the first call is with the wife, the next call is with the husband, and they are sitting in a hotel room because they've been kicked out, because uh, maybe they went out to have too many drinks, maybe they did drugs, and then they ended up with a girl, and before they knew it, this was also brought to the attention of the wife because they came home, passed out with a mobile phone on the table. So that's a typical story that I'm getting. Or maybe they were arrested by the police because they were walking a bit drunk and disorderly on Orchard Road. And I wouldn't say that they've hit rock bottom, but that is perhaps uh what is needed sometimes for people really to make those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Trauma, I think, has a huge part to play. If you've had uh two adverse, what they call aces, adverse childhood experiences, you are twice as likely to have an addiction. If you've had three, you're three times as likely to have an addiction. So I think trauma has a big part to play. And we think of addiction as a disorder of pleasure, like, oh, I want more alcohol or more whatever it is. It seems to be more of a disorder of pain. It's how do I medicate away the things that are unhappy? Um, and so I think trauma has a huge part to play. But just because that might be the cause or at least part of the cause, I think if we focus on that, we take away from the agency of the individual. And it's when the individual says, like, I may have acquired this through some other event that I had no control of, but now it's my responsibility to change it. And that is a key moment, I think, in a recovery process.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

And that resonates with me because one of my best friends, her husband, is an appalling alcoholic, and he really turns into a very abusive guy when he's drunk and he's regularly drunk. It's weird, the rest of the time he's really nice, so it's like a really chalk and cheese personality. But he's been to rehab three times now, and they've spent a fortune because it's not cheap going to rehab. So he's been three times, he'd been locked away for six weeks, you know, doesn't drink during that time. Um, but he comes back and literally he's drinking on the plane coming home, and then he'll tell his wife, Well, it's all your fault, you're the reason why I'm I have to drink. And it and it seems to be there's no taking personal responsibility for it, it's all subjected to her. So I don't know what goes on at rehab, but she it's really sad because she's the one who gets it when he comes back.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

But earlier when uh Jonathan mentioned pain uh and pleasure, actually, I think most addictions that that formula is very active. People are running away from their pain. I have not met a single addict to date who hasn't experienced deep trauma, deep pain. And their addiction is a way of them escaping and then running away. Now, no matter what the addiction is, it could be something very light, um, like social media, as you said, potentially, um, or even something positive like exercise or working hard, no matter what the addiction is, or it could be something very severe like um drug abuse. Now, again, as you said earlier, we treat all of these addictions differently. So when I mention these words, each one of us will have a reaction within us that oh my god, that's not addiction, that is just criminal, as you said earlier, right? But um, I mean, people talk about shopping addictions, yeah. So there are lighters.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Buying too many shoes is an addiction.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Yeah, so there are lighter versions of addictions, there are also degrees of addictions, um, meaning sometimes you're still high functioning, sometimes you're not high functioning. So there are degrees of addictions, there are lighter addictions, there are heavier addictions. But ultimately, I think all addictions are a mechanism to run away from our pain. And unless and until we resolve the internal pain, and there are ways to, of course, do it, uh, that all of us um can share more on, uh, I think um unless we resolve that pain, addiction will keep coming back and just changing is shape and form. One becomes the other.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

And you see people, you know, one minute, they're a bad alcoholic or a drug user, and then they throw themselves into something else. So they're actually becoming addicted to something else, but maybe it's a healthier pursuit. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah, like we can go from alcoholism to hard work, right? Or or exercising, but nonetheless, they're all addictions and they're all just coping coping mechanisms, and coping mechanisms only work until they work, they stop working at some point, and then we have to then hit and face the music. Like what happens when we get old? You know, if we're addicted to uh exercise, what happens when we reach 80 or 90? I know. Nick, you know some amazing people, even at the age of 80 and 90, they're doing like they're doing Iron Man, right? Wow, uh, etc. But eventually it runs out.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Well, uh, what I found is working for addicts is to actually not just remove the addiction, but really be intentional to see what are we putting in here in place of it. And that's what worked in in my recovery as well was not just to remove alcohol, because with that, then you're removing perhaps something that you're used to having in your hand, the drink and so on, but also the whole social network with it. Maybe you had your friends at the bar, and that was your social circle. So we've got to be really intentional and putting back something else. So when I removed the drink, I knew that that's my social place. I replaced it with swimming, cycling, running, and then in swim academies, running clubs, triathlon clubs, and so on to really be surrounded by them by social health because we cannot really live without that. So, and I think that's where many go wrong. You think that just going to rehab for 60 days, then you're not sober, you're dry there. But as soon as you get out, you say that it comes that relapse. And I've had many of those clients as well. Maybe they even manage to take the flight home because they're so alert, but as soon as they walk off that plane, they relapse. It's a traditional story. So maybe they haven't worked holistically, maybe they haven't really thought through and haven't had the right coaching conversations to see what about the other lives. How would the other life be affected now when you come back here?

SPEAKER_02 10:37

And do you think when it comes to alcohol, people do need to go completely teetotal in order to not be addicted to it, or could they just moderate their intake?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

I think it depends on the person, what they're willing to do as well. I mean, the school of thought, if we go back to the Alcoholics Anonymous and so on, is that you you got to be completely sober or dry, or whatever the term we want to use there. And that is the school of thought. Also, in I studied also in London through the sober club, sober coaching, and they say, you know, it is that, but that's not the philosophy that I'm working with. I'm wondering what is the goal they want to set for themselves. I had uh one client last year who'd been drinking, let's say, 350 days the year before, and the first goal was one year, drink less than half of that year, and he managed that, and he's now completely sober, at least so far.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Right. The statistics are not generally in favor of a moderated drinking, that going off alcohol entirely has better outcomes generally than something in between. And in my experience, I know of one client who has succeeded in moderate drinking. Uh, that those who have just cut out alcohol entirely uh have had much better odds.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, and it's extremely tough because there's so much social pressure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've had a couple of friends who've become to teeth all and you can't help but feel like they've gone really boring because you know, you know, you can no longer have such a good laugh or do silly antics because they're yeah, you know, that's a problem because people there people have such a different attitude to addictions.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

So if somebody's addicted to alcohol or or then there is a social acceptance that, yeah, it's absolutely fine, right? Uh but if somebody's addicted to something else, then it's criminal, right? But actually, unfortunately, I think there is a lack of awareness about the fact that addictions come from unhealed trauma. And um, and if we can heal that, then we don't even need willpower. I think if we can remove the volcano, if we can remove the source that's causing the issue, uh then the issue doesn't come up, and that there is no need for that willpower. So I wanted to actually ask Nick and Jonathan actually. Um Nick, from a perspective of Alcoholic Anonymous and what awareness they have, and also Jonathan, from your professional perspective, that how much do you both feel, like even on a scale of one to ten, do you think, is it clear in the awareness that it is about resolving pain and addictions do come from pain? And how much is it about managing it at a superficial or surface level? That okay, let's use willpower, let's use these physical techniques and tactics to solve it. How much do they go to the emotional layer and the mental layer? And how much are they just looking at the physical layer? For both of you, I'd love to really.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, so if we look at the 12-step programs, and there's now 12-step programs for all kinds of uh addictions, as we mentioned, all the addictions we mentioned today have 12-step programs. There's also now even 12-step programs if you go in personal bankruptcy. There are 12-step programs if you're running your company bankruptcy, because you can imagine how lonely and isolated and the stigma and the shame of having your company go under. So have a community which you can go to and discuss with others who've been there before who can understand you and get that help is wonderful. So I think when it comes to the 12-step programs, it is that uh sort of feeling that I have a tribe who understand me that reduce that stigma and shame. Uh, out of the 12 steps, it's only the first step that basically attack uh the addiction. And that means if it's drugs or alcohol, that means that you are powerless, that you you cannot handle that. That's the only one. The rest of it is all about relationships, basically, more or less, about healing relationships from the past, making amends, setting things right, and so on. It doesn't have uh the coaching skills or the psychotherapy and counseling skills. So that is one uh I gave the closing keynote at the psychotherapy and counseling conference in in Singapore last year, the biggest one in Asia. And my key message was to the seven, eight hundred therapists there. I said, don't try to work in isolation. There are 12-step programs there where they can go in also, they can see you one-on-one, and then they can go and have this support in a group where they feel that they're not alone. Because you, as a psychotherapist, you cannot have all the addictions yourself, it's impossible. So you cannot do self-disclosure for things you don't know. So I think it's a combination that you you have both those parts, and that is where I see recoveries flourishing.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

That's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

I think that it's a mixture. I think for some people, taking a very behaviorist approach does work, but normally there is, as you point out, there's pain underneath it. And so taking a more dynamic approach of trying to understand and heal those things is very valuable. But it's not so much for me, it's not a one size fits all. Um, some people, if you say learn that you know, we may be talking about your childhood and your past, well, that's just gonna end the therapy right there. Uh so I and the AA, for example, doesn't really delve into the past very much uh in the group format. And so I guess I I think both both work, but typically healing of the past is a part of the process.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah, yeah. And I guess um from my background as an inner child integration trained practitioner, I very much um have had this experience that if you can go back to the past, heal the source that causes the pain. Because even if we're not going to bed on time or scrolling Instagram or shopping, we're actually running away from an internal impulse. Yeah, and if we can sort that internal impulse out, and there are ways to do it, of course, then then that internal impulse is gone. The internal trigger has gone, which is usually at an emotional, physical, reactional level, uh thought level. When that's gone, we don't need to compensate for it.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Um, so I feel like uh if the world can have more awareness of that, then it creates deeper um impact and a more sustainable way of uh getting rid of this addiction.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

During my research, I was reading about what Portugal's done, and it's really fascinating how they they used to have quite a big drug problem in Portugal, I guess, with all the tourism and uh you know being in its location. Um, and they they got a group of specialists and doctors and psychiatrists together to really look at addictions and you know what is what's the key factor, why are people turning to drugs? And it was mostly due to apparently people feeling isolated, a lack of connection, a lack of feeling part of society, or like they had a purpose in life. And uh, you know, what they did is they actually went and decriminalized drugs, and we're talking about the big ones like heroin, cocaine, everything was decriminalized. And drug use went down by 50% because instead of putting money into arresting people and putting them into prison, they put that money into social programs, getting people on their feet, connecting them with other people, helping them set up businesses, and it it was a very successful program, but very unique when you look around the world. You know, I don't think there's many countries embracing that kind of philosophy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

There's a very interesting study, the rat park study where they had uh they initially put some rats in a in a boring cage and and gave them, I think it was cocaine, and the rats would go to the cocaine pretty frequently, and people would say, Oh, drugs are really bad. Left to our own devices, people will take drugs. And then some other researchers said, Well, actually, if you make this cage very interesting and you have all kinds of cool toys for the rats to play with, then the rats are going to play rather than take the cocaine. And the idea kind of grew that if you create an environment that's interesting and engaging, people will gravitate that way rather than to drugs. And I think there's more and more emphasis now on trying to create a healthy environment rather than just take a punitive approach.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Yeah, I like that. That healthy approach is a really uh great way forward because a Harvard uh professor did some research and he also found that one of the things that makes people happy ultimately is belonging. Connection and belonging, as you said earlier. So if we can help people have connection and belonging, then it then it meets a very deep human innate need of feeling okay. Just that simple thing. I'm okay, you're okay, I'm loved, but and I'm I that I'm recognized, I'm loved, I'm respected. And most people have not most, I would say Jonathan. Please feel free to disagree. Um, but I would say every human being ultimately has that need for love, connection, belonging. And if that need is not met in so many ways, and again, that comes down to childhood abuse sometimes, that you're not loved or you're treated in a bad way. Uh but once we have that, then that actually helps, and that gives us the pleasure we want. Yeah.

unknown 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And that's the level that I tackle it as well. So back to the story of many of the men who are coming to me being kicked out, or something has happened in their life. Uh, I tackle it at that connection level. And not everyone is ready to join a 12-step program. Maybe have too much at stakes. Many of my clients are extremely wealthy, they don't want to be seen in any of those meetings, so they want something private. So I was thinking, how can I duplicate this? So I created a men's group, and it's a WhatsApp group, which uh everyone is instructed. This is actually confidential, and we really take this seriously. We then have some meetings online, we log on for one hour to share what's going on in our life, so we get that kind of community, and it doesn't matter if someone has come in with an addiction and gone all the way to rock button, or if they've been having some real problems or issues with something else, but it's that loneliness, otherwise, that could just drive them down, yeah, and just to feel that they have the belonging there somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

And it doesn't help, I guess, add adding stigma to it that you're an addict, you know, there's something really bad, and you know, that just doesn't get people anywhere, doesn't it be made to feel worse than they already do?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Absolutely. And if you I I I also don't appreciate the the stand of the 12-step programs that if you have a slip, then it's it's a back to day zero, it's a complete failure. So you have people typically who are in these programs, if you do have a lapse or relapse, you don't necessarily want to come back because people will look at you are you on day zero? Uh while the approach more holistically that I apply otherwise is well, even a relapse is let's discuss what happened here, and it's three steps forward and two steps back.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, that sounds a lot more practical and realistic.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Yeah. Nick, start a WhatsApp group for addicted to work. I'll join that one. I really am. I think that's if I if I'm honest, that that's one addiction that I still have. And just last night, I was at the dinner table and I and my best friend was there, my children were there, my husband was there, and I opened up a conversation telling them that guys, I think I am genuinely, and it's painful. I mean, as much as it sounds like a great thing, it's actually not. Um, I'm genuinely addicted to work. I love my work so much uh that I end up working till really late hours. And it's not because I have to, okay, and uh and sometimes I have to, yes. And I used to use that as an excuse that oh, I've got a deadline, I need to write a book, and I need to do it. But now I'm finding myself doing that even when I don't have to. I do it because I love it. I cannot stop.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

So why is that an addiction?

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Um it is because I mean it it I'm calling it an addiction.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

It sounds like a love.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

I do love it, but the everything needs everything in life needs a healthy boundary. And I feel like when it comes to my work and my passion for work, um and I am still searching within myself, and I still need to get coached myself and maybe do some therapy, perhaps, and find out what's going on inside. Because I still find myself, Jonathan, working so hard that um I don't think it's the right way. I don't think it's holistically appropriate. You feel like you're missing out with your family. Okay, exactly, exactly. So I worked and so my so the first response was my daughter's, and she said exactly that. The problem with that, that's good, woman. You love your work, that's great. I said, I know, but the problem is I didn't see you this morning. And she said, Yeah, that's true. She said, she said, I wanted to live to school and I didn't come in disturbed you because I knew you're sleeping. So I said, exactly. So I miss out on seeing you, and I've only got limited days to see you.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

So it kind of thinks things get out of balance.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

That's the whole thing. They do. So it's not just working hard in a good way, it's working hard to an extent where I miss out on other pleasures of life, yeah. Uh like connecting with people I love in the way I really want to. So, Nick, you're smiling. I don't know if you can relate to that.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, absolutely. And uh, and and I also have to really put in some barriers and discipline around that infrastructure. So, for example, one of them was to terminate my permanent lease in Singapore, because I love to cycle and I love to run, and I was thinking, well, I am here really primarily because of work. But what about if I didn't have the work? Would I really live here? And the answer was no. So then I went on a mission to look where I would live, and I traveled around Asia for one year to try different places. Everything from JB to Bali to uh for Cook Island to uh Phuket, and I really made the research, and where I felt where I can cycle a bit closer to nature, still closer to an airport was in Phuket. So I now base myself there to force myself to get out of the office. The whole Singapore for me is working office. So I do that, and that transition made a huge impact. And then with the time, I can still overwork there as well. So then I joined what I just shared before: the swimming clubs, the running clubs, the cycling clubs to force myself and I stick it in my calendar and I paid memberships and I pay a coach to give me the schedule. So I force myself to go out. That means that I'm in a group cycling three hours one day, for example, in the forest with a group of people. So I get physical health, mental health, and social health all in one. But if I don't put in those infrastructures, I would do like AVN, I would just work because I love it as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Yeah. And an exercise is an addiction for quite a lot of people. Sadly, not me. I'm always joking. I wish I was addicted to exercise, but uh I have known people who they'll they'll be injured, for example, they'll have all sorts of feet injuries, knee injuries, and they'd still be getting ready for a marathon or an Iron Man. And I would look at it and think, what are you doing? You shouldn't even be doing any of this. You're injured. Um but they can't stop, and it isn't an addiction.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, so that's why I like to have a coach. And I haven't uh over the last few years I've had a triathlon coach, and I I have never done, I think, even one minute more than it gives me. And I see uh the the times when I am sick or injured, I see it as a treat to do something else in life. Uh do I never watch TV or movies normally otherwise, but that would be the moment where I would do that.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

So I'd take the chance or do something else or go for massages or I remember being at a company work event in Orlando, they had like an annual shindig there, and they had a every year it'd be an inspirational speaker coming on the stage. And this guy, um he just he ran something like I don't know, 28 marathons, you know, back to back, and he was literally showing photos of his feet, and you could see the bone bone sticking out of his flesh. And I was horrified. I was thinking this isn't, I don't find this inspirational at all. I feel like this guy's got a serious addiction, and um yeah, I didn't eat my dessert thing. I can't see the bones through my feet, but uh yeah, but no, it is a serious thing, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

So I'd like to ask, um uh Nick, I'll ask you a question. Yeah, so how much do you feel is exercise an addiction for you or not? And we're welcome to cut this question out later on because you said we can cut things out. So Nick, if we want to cut it out, it's fine. But I really I was genuinely wondering how much do you feel um exercise is part of an addiction or is it not for you?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

No, so if I stop the coaching plan, then I I I really slow down too much. So I need to have the discipline, I need someone, and I every year I have the same conversation I'm trying to pull out from the race because I think all human beings are lazy by nature, and I'm very lazy by nature, but I also know that if I do stop it, my cholesterol goes through the roof, then I need to start taking statins for my high cholesterol. We have high cholesterol in my family, so it comes back to the same question: do I want to exercise or do I want to take medications? So it goes full circle. I do those, I'm trying to stop uh the coach and so on for those reasons, but no, I I do it for health reasons, so no, probably the other way around. I'm still a very lazy person. Work would be a bigger issue, yeah. Yeah, so I need that, but I I do love cycling and I'd love getting out in the nature and having then stopped the alcohol. I don't have the social life, I don't like to be in a bar where people are drunk and so on. So um, I think it's the the great the greatness is with triathlon is just that also it's three sports. I have swimming, cycling, and running. And I hate swimming, I absolutely hate it, it's the most boring thing in the world. But I also think it's very good to completely surrender and do something that is so boring. I think we are too much many times in this world looking to be entertained, looking for the quick fixes, and just swimming and looking down at the bottom makes me completely empty. I'm so empty when I get up that actually uh you know it just empties me completely. So I think that that is that is uh great. And then with the cycling, it's really getting out in the forest, hearing the birds and so on, which really makes it. And and running, I I do like the the solo runs. Typically, I do some runs by myself, which is my meditation time clearing my head. Sometimes the I run with a group as well. So the combo there is what makes me feel good, and that's why I do it. So I wouldn't say I wish I wasn't uh addicted to it because then I would definitely perform better, but I don't really care. I I mean, even last I was in the world championship of Iron Man, where everyone takes it really, really serious. I just rented a bike, you know. I'm uh so I I don't really care. I don't look at end results. People say, Oh, you did really well. I don't really care.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

And do you feel like people who have been addicted to things should find something else to channel their energy into? Because you can't just kind of cut out drugs or drink or social media addiction, whatever it may be, and not have something else filling your life, taking your time, becoming a passion. What do you think, guys?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I think going to something more pro-social is a good thing, and and work and exercise are two classic ones. I think of a client who uh compulsively uh was dating and he had multiple phones, had an exclusive relationship, but would would be dating many women at the same time. So exclusive and inverted comics. And uh he he one day just broke one heart too many and he went hardcore into exercise. And I'm like, okay, that in some ways is a bit unhealthy to be so focused on something that's so out of balance. But I'm like, heck, do it for a couple of years, why not? That'll probably put him in a better place. So maybe there are gradations, so choose your your next compulsion uh because it's better than the one you've got.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Yeah, I can just imagine a comedy programme coming out of that, a man who's got so many multiple phones. Yeah, we're one for them to be.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

I probably dated that guy, but hey, did you don't mind my using this segue? You did and tell me if you don't want to talk about this, but you you did talk about your you know having family members with addictions, and that sent you kind of on the road to proving yourself, kind of being the best you can be, working the hardest, whatever it may be. Yeah, yeah. So, what was it like growing up as a kid with family members' addictions?

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yes, um, I think uh uh it's not a secret. My I my family, my extended family, I would say generations ago, there has been a lot of trauma. Okay, so there's been generational trauma, and people have carried it forward, and each person has expressed it in their own ways, and quite often um anger is one way. Um so anger, unresolved pain, it has led to all kinds of addictions that I've seen in the family. What kind of things were they addicted to? Um so of course, alcohol is one. Um, and there are some things that I'm not yet comfortable to fully talk about because I am talking about people who I love and they will be listening to this, and I don't know what they want me to say and not say.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

But it does feel like pretty much for everyone I know, there seems to be a family member who's an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

I mean, I'm originally it feels like everyone in the family's got that that uncle, the dad, the grandfather, whoever it may be, yeah, who's an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah, yeah. So my my dad had my dad actually experienced a lot of pain himself, a lot of pain. And as a result of that unhealed pain, and in that generation, they didn't have the support that we have now. Um, so my dad did go through a series of uh a number of different addictions, um, and it had an impact on the family, of course, because I feel so much empathy for people's pain, my own pain, of course, to begin with. Um, so so so yes, I have uh experienced the pain myself. I've healed quite a lot, but I will always say that it's never uh it's it's never like the job is done. Yeah, there's always 80%, right? I feel like I've done 80% of healing, and then there's last 20% left, and then I get into the last 20%, and then I feel like that's like the another 80% within the 20%. And cycles of that keeps continuing. Um so I think I've healed a lot, I've grown a lot, and I've turned a lot of that pain into personal power and uh wisdom and being able to support people through that.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

But um it definitely had an impact on your kind of your perspective of life having addicts.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Definitely I have I have a lot of compassion, so I I genuinely feel like let's not judge people who are addicted. And the one thing that they need is love, really. They need unconditional love. So many people say that I can't believe that you can be so nice to your family when they've done XYZ. And I'm like, well, they didn't choose to do it. So it takes us back to the first question: is it a choice? I I personally don't think that anyone chooses um bad things generally. I don't think so. I think uh I think it's just a response, a coping mechanism and a response. Um so yeah, uh, and so yeah, I decided to stop that generational pain, heal myself, and actually then have spent lots of time with my father, healing him, done a lot of inner child work with him as well, and um I feel very, very close to him. So that's how you know there is love there rather than any kind of judgment.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

I often wonder about a little friend I used to play with as a kid, and I must have been seven or eight, and her name was Patricia, and she lived on the same road as me. And I didn't even know at the time. I think when you're that young, you don't have a name for it. But she was raised by a single mother, and her mother was a terrible drunk. But at the time we saw it as one big game. So I remember playing in her house, and her mother's kind of stringing around going, and we're hiding under chairs just in front of her, and she can't see us, and then we're hiding up behind a sofa. We're playing like a hide and seek from her mum, and I thought it was very entertaining. I used to love going around there, but I look back and I think, oh my god, I mean, poor Patricia. I wonder what happened to her when she grew up because that's her only role model, and you know, it was the most bizarre way to be raised. And yeah, I do wonder what happened to her. It's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

But yeah, and also you never know what happens behind closed doors when Patricia is finally found, right? Yeah, and how does her mom take that?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

She was so so drunk. I mean, she could hardly function. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, I didn't have any of those experiences actually growing up, and no addicts as I necessarily know in the family. So I think it was self-inflated, yeah, just too much, too excessive. And I think with many of the men I'm working with as well, it is can just become too much, especially uh if you're a socially distant swede like me, an introvert, and it's a social lubricant uh in business, and I did better, better in business with it. So it's it worked until it didn't work, so to say. And uh, when it didn't work was when I uh when I started to realize that I can also drink on uh on my emotions. If I'm feeling stressed, I can drink to wind down. But how often do we see and hear people say, Let's go for an afterwork drink? I was walking around Singapore last night and I could just see this packed of people sitting there having a drink after work. So why do they do that? Well, they're trying to wind down, maybe because they don't have a coach or they haven't worked with a therapist to address what actually is happening there in their life, so it is the easy, quick way. And I have two addictions I have to confess to sugar and coffee. So I yeah, I didn't drink much coffee, but when I gave up alcohol, it's sort of coffee was served in many of the recovery meetings and so on, and it just I started to drink it more. And I have coffee most days now, and it happens sometimes that I realize I didn't have a coffee today, but then I have one, so that's certainly one. And I think uh when I'm in a supermarket, even though I'm quite strict and disciplined with myself to trying to always add these fresh food and so on, but I have a sort of a drive, I go to that uh corner where they have candy and the stuff, and and I have to confess that uh at least once or twice a week I go and pick up something smaller, but it's sugar just have a big drive on me.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Once one or two times a week, I think is it's really good. I'm an absolute chocolate addict, so I'm on that aisle rather a lot.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, I would love I would love to surrender as I surrendered alcohol. I would love to surrender coffee and sugar. And it was actually one of my good friends who's really challenged me this week and said I should really give up coffee and see how it goes.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

I mean, you've already given up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm thinking as well, right? But I do feel so much better without it somehow. Yeah, I feel so much better. I just love being lean and feeling good. It just gives me that extra energy. I can sleep much less. I man, this year I had a goal uh to lose fat, and I lost four filograms this year. And the amount of energy I get from dropping those four kilos is so great. And I I I believe that I need about one hour less sleep a night. It's just something that the body is just so much healthier, so cleaner that you don't need to sleep so much. So if there could be a way to remove sugar from my life completely, I'd be the happiest. In fact, I tried one time, I went vegan and I've never felt better.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

What makes you pause then? Like, why aren't you still vegan?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

I I lived in Singapore at that time, and there's so much vegan food here, yeah, and it was very easy. I lived in Marina One, and I can take my lift down in the basement, and they had I think it was super green or something, and I used to eat just that every day. You could just keep eating the bowls of healthy food and so on. And then in Thailand there was the sugar even in the food and the calories, and it's not so easy. Uh, that's my excuse anyway. And I don't love to spend time cooking, so yeah, um yeah, but one day maybe I need to really set up my life with the same discipline as the others to to surrender all of those sugar stuff.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Just to change the subject now a bit, if you're somebody who has got, say uh one of your children in his twenties, he's an alcoholic and and you know, always coming back to you for the funding for his lifestyle, would you cut the financial uh aid to that child, or would you, I mean, how do you handle that? Because I have got a friend at the moment in that situation. Um and I said to him, Why don't you just cut him off? Because if he has to kind of make a living and defend for himself, he's less likely to have time to be getting drunk all the time. And he said, Oh, I can't ever do that. So it feels to me like he's enabling. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, I mean you you need healthy boundaries with dignity rather than enabling uh through funding. So yes, there has to be boundaries and not enable them, but at the same time uh not shaming them, not making them wrong, and just separating the behavior from the person. Uh if we do that and not make the person wrong, they don't feel judged. And if they don't feel judged, they'll look at they'll be more willing to look at what they have more objectively and deal with it. But I think the minute we start judging people and making them wrong, you know, you know, right? The minute somebody points fingers at you and starts making you wrong and making you feel like they don't that they don't approve of something or there's something wrong with you, then we become more defensive rather than okay, well, there is this issue and this is how we can uh handle it, and these are the boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

And an honest subject, Nick. Have you seen interventions happen, family interventions where they've come together to deal with an addict in the family?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, it's happening all the time, and uh, I think in the 12-step programs, you never go and do an intervention by yourself, you typically get two people because you never know what can happen. Um and this is a big part of it, yeah, it's a big part of the job. It's also what the rehabs do. I work with a lot of rehabs also, and being the middleman of giving people an option because putting someone in a rehab against their own will is just a waste of time and money, yeah, because they they will have that drink already on the way out, so it's better that they are ready and interventions can be the last resort. But many times what happens then, perhaps the addict will just run away and you might never see them again.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

And I guess the addict also feels very shamed and kind of on the spot. And if they're not ready to take responsibility and do the work, then is it gonna be effective?

SPEAKER_01 41:00

I see it work both ways. I mean, it's a very extreme intervention. Like to say to someone, I'm gonna cut off your funding. Well, maybe that's not so extreme. You know, they may then go to crime for to to get the money they want, and that would be can add to the problems. More severe interventions are when the family get together and say, if you don't make a change, we will disown you. And I've seen that go well where the person has had a big wake-up call and made a U-turn. But also think of one case where two years later the son was found living in a dumpster in San Francisco. And so it can really just go, well, screw the family, if they're gonna do that to me, I want nothing to do with them. And so it's one of those interventions to use very rarely uh and very carefully, and really as a last resort. But I I've often thought, like with some people I've worked with, if only the family had taken a stronger approach earlier on, there would have been a better chance.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

And thinking of addictions in family, I'm thinking that uh when we said earlier that it's a it's a pain that we're avoiding. Actually, I might like to re revise that idea because I feel like sometimes it's not a pain we're avoiding, sometimes it's a pleasure we're running to as well. Because a lot of teenagers are now addicted to, or even kids are addicted to uh gaming. So it's not really that they have experienced any major pain uh at that point, it's just that they are addicted to the whole pleasure of it, you know, that uh dopamine kicking in, saying that okay. Adrenaline, dopamine kicking in, exactly. So so I think yeah, I think I think what I would maintain is that yeah, it's still a balance between pain and pleasure, running away from pain, going towards pleasure, but sometimes there is no pain, so actually it could just be going for pleasure. Um and for yeah, teenagers that is the case.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

And there's a big addiction now to social media where you know even sensible adults can't get off their phones. And yeah, you know, if you're at conference like you are often nicked, giving your keynote speeches, and everyone has to turn off their phones or not keep looking at their phones. I mean, it you realize how many people are obsessed with that but that's down to how good you are, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Of course. Yeah, you've got to break that pattern. If you're really gripping as a keynote, then of course people will be hooked to listening to it.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah, so you know, when is it an addiction and when is it people just not being able to shut off and something?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

It's a fine line, isn't it? Right? Yeah, where did where how how far is it? Uh bad habits, and when it's becomes an addiction, I think it's very, very it's really hard to define that line. But I would say a bad habit, I think we all have them, right? And as the saying goes, we're only as sick as our sick as our secrets. And um, it's about yeah, also appreciating that we have that side, that we have a dark side, and not being curious about that, discussing it, owning it. Uh otherwise, I think we cannot come anywhere. And then in that journey, uh, there's many wonderful things we can do with ourselves. It's an inner journey that we need to be ready for.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

And for your clients that have successfully. You know, won the battle with their addictions. You know, what traits do they have compared to those who didn't manage to cure their addictions? What you know what are the winning traits?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Well, it's mainly the romantic relationships I see is the biggest difference because that is really, really hard for someone who's an addict because the addiction will probably be what runs their life, and it's a very selfish behavior typically. So the romantic partner has probably been ignored for a long time. So if the relationship is to be saved, then that and the addiction release, then the partner typically finds that they have the partner back eventually. Of course, it is a journey and a transition to sober up and to get clean and sober, right? And there will be a journey. But once there, then that's where I see the biggest win.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

I think for me it's clients who are willing to get back on the wagon. Because you fall off, you get demoralized, you're like, oh, I can't do this. But those who just have a dogged determination to keep trying in the face of failure and keep trying and keep trying, those are the ones who succeed. The ones who are used to, I get grade A's at everything and this alcohol thing or whatever it may be, uh, and they try and they they they screw up and who don't have the resilience from having failed so many times before to go, okay, I failed and now I'm gonna try again. Uh that they're the ones who have the toughest journey.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

So it's having that willpower.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

You just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Which is hard, I guess, when you're addicted to drugs, which uh, you know, really and alcohol is really test that level of willpower physically.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah, and and yeah, the willingness to just deal with failure. I didn't succeed this time. It's just one step closer, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

And are there medications coming out that can help cure addictions?

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Certainly medications that can help. Yeah, yeah. Not my field, but uh there are. And certainly if you're on things like uh uh methadone or some some which are some uh medications which mimic the drug that you're taking, then you can take the medication in a more controlled way. You don't have to deal with uh the the black market for your drugs and get your heroin in dodgy corners and of dubious quality, um, but you can get it in a in a medical environment where it can be tapered down. Um and then there are medications which can reduce uh impulsivity. So if let's say gambling is a thing, there are medications that can take some of the edge off the desire to do impulsive things.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah, we haven't talked about gambling much today, but I mean I had a friend who her dad was a huge gambler, and then she was she became a huge gambler as well, and it kind of makes you think, well, is it some sort of genetic programming, or is it you've observed someone and you you you're copying what they're doing? But um, I mean, she was always having to leave a country and she'd be owing, you know, hundreds of thousands and debts to various banks and going on the run. And it it just, you know, it was just a very weird habit to observe because you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper, and um, you know, what a life that must be having to, you know, leave the country under the cover of darkness and you know, avoiding all the banks chasing you from then on. I I wouldn't say it's genetic.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

My dad was a gambler too. Really, yeah, very much. You know, he and he still gambles and it but now he gambles within reason. He actually has a clear budget, he knows exactly how much he's gonna gamble and he loses it. I asked him as a joke, you know, I said, Papa, how much are you losing? You know, is are you winning or losing? He says, Of course I'm losing. You know, so I said basically, so every month you lose? He says, Yes, I do, but it's fun, you know. So he says, Avni, this is my entertainment, right? And now it's all within a really uh reason. And actually, even though my dad always gambled, he's never really lost, like he's never gambled to an extent where that's caused any financial issue. I mean, he's always been extremely wealthy and he's always done really well financially. And in fact, he's supported. I can't even count the number of people to become extremely successful. So he's he's an amazing person in that respect. Um, so I don't think gambling is uh or any of these addictions are necessarily genetic. I've never gambled in my whole life. Never, you know. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Curious, what's one of the more unusual compulsions or addictions you've worked with or heard of?

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah, so gambling has also come across me, especially people working in remote areas and so on when they're bored if they have nothing to do. Um so I come across that. Uh some of the unique addictions, I mean, at the higher level, the people who have money is cocaine, is uh is the new beer. Um, I have clients who are clean and sober from cocaine, but then they go to even home to some friends for a business function, a small closed circle, or maybe someone going out for Friday afternoon drink, and cocaine is always there. It just seems like it's becoming yeah, it's something that is part of everyday life, sadly. It's just it's not a big thing, anything anymore to do cocaine. That's that's at least what I hear among my clients, and I think that's very sad.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

So plastic surgery is another unusual addiction that you see sometimes. Uh, we were talking earlier about that plastic surgery, and uh sometimes people are even people are addicted to fixing other people, or they because they're again running away from themselves, so they will think that uh let me help you or let me do this for you.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Um I've got a few girlfriends who seem to be rather addicted to getting bow tops and fillers and doing the next tweakment and the next one, and it tweakment, I don't know. They call it tweakments, but it it never seems to end, and then they have kind of a distorted view of what they should be looking like, and you're looking at them differently, constantly trying to fix them. And thinking, Oh, you look so much better before, but but there's no telling them because they've got this kind of vision of how they should look, and it's getting more and more not like a human being, frankly, it's more like a plastic Barbie doll, but yeah, you know, it's a sad addiction because you see it and it's expensive and painful, and and I think they look way worse off at the end of it, but yeah, I can't say that.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

Yeah, because once you've lost what you look like, your natural self, you can never get that back, yeah, you can never fix that back. So also shopping. I have a um uh I have a friend who shops a lot, a lot, and she'll she'll shop to an extent where she will not spend money on her own kids. Um so so which is sad, but shopping gives her pleasure and it and it takes her away from uh not having enough attention from her husband.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

So she shops is whether that's a true addiction or if it's just masking sadness or something.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Well it is a coping mechanism, isn't it? Yeah, it is a coping mechanism, uh it's a way of dealing with it. And I think I think anything is an addiction if it's a compulsion, like you're sharing earlier. What is an addiction? I think if you if you cannot stop doing something, you wish to, it could be as simple as scrolling Instagram or whatever it is. But if you cannot stop doing it, then that's an addiction. If you have control over it, it's a choice.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Well, I was addicted, I think, to to following the COVID news in 2020 until I until I blocked uh that on WhatsApp. And I I said in March uh 2020, and I was in Avri Martin's coaching program then. I said uh I will switch off the news and I will never watch TV for the rest of my life. And I haven't turned it on since.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

Really?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

And if I it was a TV in the lobby when we came here and the TV would have been on with a BBC or CNN, I would politely ask someone, can you turn that off or turn down the volume? If that didn't work, I would have asked us, can we move to another room? Is it just world news or or is it any TV news, any um magazine news and so on? I don't read also. So I hardly know of the bad news going on around the world. I know enough to support some causes when there's a war somewhere and some friends will reach out, I'm supporting this course, I would donate money, I would see if I can support in any way, but I don't get sucked into all that news and so on.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Because you cut it out of your life.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Because I got addicted. I had to follow those COVID numbers and it drove me completely insane. And I said, this is not good for me. And I realized it and I switched off the addiction.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Yeah, same here. I literally have turned off all news channels. I'm like, okay, if I need to know news, then it will come to me. I uh because it's it's stressful. Like most of the time you hear negative things. So I will choose to tap into it occasionally just to keep an eye on things. You are so good at saying, I made a decision to do this, and then that's what happened. Now, of course, that happened with your alcohol, turning off news, um, your exercise, fasting. Yeah, fasting. Yeah. So, Nick, what is it that happens in your brain, which is so binary that when you make a decision to do something, it just happens. There is no gray area.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yeah, I think if I if I'm convinced that this is the right path, then I I try to be on it. I think that is one thing. So when I tested the fasting and how it made me feel, it just said, Oh wow, I want more of this. So it's about having that pause and think before I react. Um, and uh that's when I went vegan and tested that for three months. As I said, I never felt better because my body probably slept better, recovered better, less inflammation in the body, and so on. And I mesh everything being an athlete, and I look at all my data and analyze it. So that's why if it's a strong enough evidence, then I should be able to manage it. So I'm trying my best. But that means also that if I want to be off sugar, that means I shouldn't stock ice cream in the freezer because then I will go and I will finish them all. That's how it is. I'm I'm like I'm like that rat you spoke about before. Um, and I think yeah, yeah, I will go for sugar over the cocaine.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

I'm the same if there's anything in the house, chocolate, ice cream, whatever it may be, it you know, it's not there for long. And I guess my brain the whole time is like, there's chocolate in the fridge, there's chocolate in the fridge.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Just like James, just like James Clear said in his Atomic Habits book, right? That we don't uh rise to our goals, we fall to our structures. So, meaning if you want to give up sugar, don't have sugar in the house. End of story. So forget about having amazing goals.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

That would be but I think that's the answer, right? It it it is uh if you tell me and you show me the way, I will be pretty good at executing it. Uh that's my strength of the discipline. I will put the infrastructure. It's like because I'm lazy, I wouldn't exercise enough. So I have to sign up for these clubs and coaches to box me in. And I have to admit, if my coach now is listening, he will not be happy. My swim goggles are in my bag, I haven't swam for two weeks. So that's me, you know, an exercise. So I really I really try to not do it, but I have to because it makes me feel fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Well, we're at the end now, guys. So, last quick positive thoughts for people tackling their addictions. Admi, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

So I'd say really think about think about any addictions uh in in three layers. There is a physical addiction, then there is the thought addiction, and then there is the emotional addiction. So look at all three layers, don't just try to deal with it physically. Uh, consider the mental and emotional impact. And also, addictions are not just physical, they're also thought addictions. So, um, and and we can handle it, of course. So good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Yeah, for me, I would say it's about owning it and asking for help and think about someone else perhaps in your community, or do you know someone who's had that addiction before, who's gone through it, ask them to support you. And if you don't, uh call a qualified uh uh therapeutic, counselor, psychologist who can give you that support.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Great, great advice.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Um, I think all of us, if not all, but then nearly all of us, can overcome our compulsions and addictions at least to some level. So I think if you're struggling, maybe you failed, give it another try. Perhaps get professional help along the way, but certainly try and get some kind of support.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Great words. Thank you guys, and thank you for watching. Uh, addiction is complicated, as you will have gathered from the last hour. It's not just too much of something, it's despair, isolation, and trauma, satisfying the human need for happiness and dopamine while thriving on denial, shame, and silence. Rather than pretending you're not an addict, confront the parts of yourself that need to escape, numb, scroll, drink, gamble, or overwork, and seek the help you need to start your recovery. If you want to suggest a topic for our next episode, please join our Facebook group at Ella Podcast and message us. Please subscribe, rate, and share this podcast. Sending you a big hug.