MeToo, Epstein & Weinstein: Power, Truth and the Cost of Allegations

Few topics divide opinion as deeply as the MeToo movement.

What began as a necessary reckoning-giving voice to those who had been silenced—has also raised difficult, uncomfortable questions about truth, power, and what happens when allegations are tried in the court of public opinion.

In this episode of Ella Podcasts, Ella Sherman is joined by Dr Jonathan Marshall, Simon J Littlewood, and Samir Kothari to explore the evolving landscape of harassment allegations, media narratives, and the tension between believing survivors and protecting due process.

This is a nuanced, thought-provoking conversation about justice, perception, and the complexity of human behaviour-where emotion, evidence, and public judgement don’t always align.

Together, we explore:
 • How the MeToo movement has reshaped conversations around harassment and abuse
 • Whether the pendulum has shifted too far—or is still correcting past injustice
 • The role of social media in amplifying allegations and shaping public opinion
 • How power, money, and status influence accountability
 • The psychological complexity of memory, trauma, and delayed reporting 
 • The reality of false accusations—and how common they actually are
 • The tension between “believe survivors” and the need for evidence-based judgement
 • Why public narratives can overshadow more hidden, systemic forms of abuse 
 • How modern workplace dynamics, culture, and fear are changing relationships between men and women
 • What balanced, fair systems might look like in a world of heightened sensitivity and scrutiny

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The MeToo movement has been critical in surfacing hidden abuse—but it also raises complex questions about fairness
 • Trauma, memory, and reporting are not always linear or clear-cut
 • False accusations are a real, though smaller, part of the wider conversation
 • Public judgement can be swift—and lasting—even without full evidence
 • Power dynamics shape both abuse and accountability
 • Supporting victims and ensuring due process are not mutually exclusive—but require careful balance

This episode does not offer easy answers.
 Instead, it invites you to sit with the complexity.

Because in a world of headlines and hot takes, the truth is rarely simple—and understanding requires more than taking sides.

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MeToo movement, sexual harassment, false accusations, workplace culture, power dynamics, social media impact, trauma psychology, public opinion, justice system, gender dynamics

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. We all love the hit movie Pretty Woman about an older, successful businessman meeting a hot young escort. It was a huge hit and regarded as a romantic movie, despite glamorizing prostitution. Yet, fast forward to today, and the media is now playing judge, jury, and executioner for allegations against older successful men caught fraternizing with escorts. Are these men predators, paedophiles, or partygoers? When did hard evidence not matter anymore? How has the Me Too movement changed how we see allegations of harassment and abuse? Here to discuss this very hot topic are Dr. Jonathan Marshall. He's a leading psychologist and a former professor. He's a Stanford and Harvard University graduate. He offers perspective and practical advice to help people thrive. We also have Simon J. Littlewood, a journalist, business advisor, and Oxford University graduate. He's widely known for his business and economics commentary on the BBC World Service. And he's the author of the business bestseller Let the Cash Flow. He's also a regular contributor to Global Finance in New York and a founder of the business networking group, The Raffles Crew. And we also have Samir Kathari, who's a fund manager for an Italian investment fund. He hails from Texas and has a Master of Science from the University of Houston. So the big question Does the Me Too movement correct injustice or has the pendulum swung in the opposite direction? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I think it's uh just swinging. I think it's trying to correct something that has been around for a very long time. And that the the it's not that the pendulum has gone too far. Sure, there have been uh extreme uh examples of it, but that it's more that the pendulum was stuck in the wrong place for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

And it's only what in the last 15 years it's actually gained momentum.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

1717 is when it really started to gain momentum.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

That's again social media related, right? Because if if you you know, I was my first job out of college in the 90s was in California. There was still a Me Too movement, and I have a specific example of uh a woman in my office that was given some sort of, I guess, crude remarks about her looks. Uh the next day, a similar guy who was very good looking, by the way, and then there was a guy that wasn't so good looking, uh of Mexican descent that said the same thing, and he was out of the door uh by the end of the day. Right? So I don't think that is this is something new. I think social media amplifies it. Uh then you had that then you've had this whole Hollywood thing with Weinstein that sort of again, you know, the media jumped all over it, now Epstein and and blah blah blah. But I think the the there's always been a Me Too movement, particularly in Western countries.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Well, now you've raised it, Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein, are they examples of elite immunity? Um, how does power, money, social status shape the way their behavior was dealt with? And do we see similar dynamics in everyday workplaces or institutions?

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah, I mean uh something needed to be corrected. If you talk about older women and the experiences that they've had in their lives, I'm thinking of my mother. Um, you know, I remember um broadcasting on the BBC years ago, and mum was my most faithful listener because it went out at 1 a.m. in in in England, and I'd talked about women in the workplace, and she phoned me up, but she almost never did, and she said, Simon, sometimes you need to shut up. You have no idea what women go through in the workplace. Now, she didn't give me any details. What she was telling me in the coded way that women of her generation have is that she'd put up with horrible things in her working life, and she was a very attractive woman, and she hadn't felt that she could do anything about it. So I so to be clear, um bringing out the extent of inappropriate and abusive behavior in in institutions and in work really needed to be done, in my view.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

But there's a lot of abuse of this, right? Like we've all seen the cases, right? I mean, you know, whether it's Johnny Depp or whatever, right? That there's a massive amount of abuse. Even at the at at you know, in in our circles, we've had people that have been accused of things, wrongly accused of things, and it's basically a popularity contest, or some woman is bent out of shape over something else and then accuses the guy of doing this. And whether it's HR or you know, the the court, the the jury of social media jumps on this immediately and um you know crucifies the guy.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And there was a time where it was always you'd be innocent until proven guilty. And I've really noticed a big swing away from that. And now, you know, even people are if they're proven innocent, they're still seen as guilty. Yeah, forever. Yeah, forever. It's really changed how the public kind of loves all this drama and intrigue and sleaze.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

There's a whole generation that's gone through university. I'm gonna come at Jonathan on this, but um uh who've heard that Western society is a toxic patriarchy. Um this is this is standard university talk, that men have structured things for their own benefit, uh, that they cannot be trusted that they're predatory, and that women don't get a fair shake of the whip. But whilst there's an element of truth in that, it's as many of things have been, it has been hijacked by the left, um, as have other aspects of quite good social policy, to make enemies of people that they don't particularly like. So we've had we've had Black Lives Matter, we've had um the Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter, of course Black Lives Matter. The whole point of that is if you don't agree with that, you're evil. Um, but it's not based on any real fact. You know, white men are more likely than black men to get killed by police in North America. That's what the data said. We wouldn't think that. Um, and as far as the Me Too movement is concerned, things needed to be improved. But the fact of the matter is there is an awful lot of um mobilization of that to persecute men. And I'm thinking very specifically, we didn't talk about this, but you know, at the time at the beginning of the Obama administration, it was suggested that women in there was a specific piece of research that said that 30% of women who went to college, you know, could expect to be subject to some form of sexual assault. I remember this because it came up on the on the radio and my daughter, right my daughter went to university and and I was too into her, and she was laughing at me. Um and she said, I, you know, I look lots, because she's very social, I've got lots of friends, none of us have had a problem. Um, but what the Obama what Obama did was he said, well, we we we the normal justice system is not sufficient. We're going to create special tribunals. If anyone makes an allegation against a guy, we have a tribunal, he doesn't get the right of counsel, you know, so there's no presumption of innocence. And and lies were wrecked because of this presumption that men were kind of evil and going about. Now, of course, some men are, some men are horrible. But the reality is uh that was completely unacceptable, and we've now had, although you don't hear about them so much, we've now had examples where women have come out of the wood boat and say, Yeah, I was actually lying. You know, I think that they've gone to prison for the other thing. But the man in the meantime has endured 10-15 years.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

He's he's called But you know, just going back to the political movement, the if you look at 99% of the the people in the Epstein files, every one of them is a left-wing scumbag that that was portrayed as climate change, uh Me Too, women's rights, and what they were doing is, you know, I mean, there was one layer of of you know the party goers that were going to his New York apartment that were it was normal social events, and then the really deprived uh uh uh lunatics were the ones that were the the left-wing political, right? I don't think we entire Democratic Party, I mean, all the prominent politicians, all of their donors uh were implicated, WF types implicated in what?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

I mean, uh here we have a man who knew everybody, all across the country. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

It's not talking, I'm not talking about from a social perspective. If you're in New York and you were somewhat of a high flyer in banking or whatever, you went to his party. Yes, right? Um, but I'm talking about the the island and the trafficking and all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Did he uh absolutely well I don't think we know what really went on there with the stuff?

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Well, they've released three million documents, you know. Yeah, yeah. And and every one of them, Reed Hoffman and uh Bill Gates, which are the big donors, um the the all the the Democrat politicians, all the WF guys, WEF guys, all implicated in this. But implicated in what exactly? In emails and videos.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Well, some I mean look, say, look, I've got a friend, a very wealthy friend. Um I'm glad to have him. He's got a big villa in in Phuket. And he lets me go there, or he did until we fell out. You know, for years I would go to his villa and I'd be looked after. If it's if it and and there are lots of photographs. There's a little book in the villa that I've signed that says here I am, you know, with and you know, if it turned out that he was an utter pervert uh and he'd been you know in implicated in who knows what in Hong Kong where he lives, then my name would be on the files, right? It wouldn't mean that I was implicated. So I went to Buket and the. You know where I'm going with this. No, not really, no.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

I don't think the people I think I think most of the most of the politicians that claim are advocates of women's rights and women's freedom are the ones that were most implicated in the world.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

I don't know what you mean by implicated. I mean, I think you're saying no smoke without fire, and I think we've got to be very careful of that. And there's there's videos. Well, you keep saying that, but we haven't seen them. But you haven't seen them.

SPEAKER_04 10:00

I mean, yes, I've seen a couple of them that were.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

But the big question mark really is, you know, uh in this particular case is were the women underage um and actually. Do we need hard we need hard evidence to before making presumptions? But now everybody has you know thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Well it's been the whole notion, the word paedophile has been weaponized, you know. Um and it's somehow I mean it I'm gonna I'm gonna get into trouble here. Okay, so how many states in the US allow m allow 12-year-old girls to get married? There must be one, right? About 12? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

12 still.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

With the with the permission of your parents, girls from 12 to 60 can get married. Wow. And there are in fact thousands of girls in the US at the moment who have legally married their husbands between the ages of 12. I only ask, I only say that.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

And that's legal.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

It's legal. Uh with the with parental's consent. Because these, of course, are they don't know what they want, right? But I mean, I'm not saying it's good and I'm not saying it's bad. I'm the father, I'm just saying there's a bit, you know, when you get sent to prison for trafficking a 17-year-old who's been invested, involved in the sex industry for for several years already, and who lies about her age, uh, in the same country where people, where it's legal for 13, 14, 15-year-old girls to marry generally older men, uh I'm struggling to really see a moral standard here. Um I mean I'm sure Epstein was horrible, but I'm struggling to see a moral standard. Um, you know? So um I I scratch my head over that one. Um, and I think it's been weaponized, and I think if you look at Weinstein, Weinstein, Weinstein? Weinstein, yeah. You know, the thing that that that has been scrubbed out of that, and you'll hear it from some of the women who acted as defense counsel in in that trial, is we've entirely scrubbed out of the record the possibility that ambitious young women use their sexuality to get what they want. You know, and I I mean anyone's lived in the world for five minutes knows that both men and women can deploy their sexuality to get what they want. I would just observe that. And then modern feminism says that 20 years later you can turn around and say, you know what, I didn't, I wasn't really in, I didn't really agree to that. And uh and actually, you know, uh I was exploited.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Um it's after you've had a few roles that Weinstein gave you, but you were fine with it when you were thanking him at the Academy Awards, and then then you're old and you're not getting rolled at the end of the social media status.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

I'm not saying that what annoys me is that that that's not allowed that because it's we all know that that's true, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Particularly in that industry. I mean, I had friends in London who were actors and actresses, and the casting couch is prevalent, and it is a two-way transaction. And I always used to say if only the girls would stop doing this and sleeping with a you know producer or director, whatever it may be, it wouldn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

It's not just in that, it's not just in that industry. If you've got a senior job in a in a in a in a company and a big desk and a big office and lots of retainers, women come on to you. I'm I'm sorry, they do. You know, whether or not you respond to it is a question of your own integrity. But the notion that women are that there's this strange um contradiction in in the feminist narrative, which says that on the one hand, women always have autonomy and should be allowed to choose who they sleep with, you know, male, female, as many times as they want, bloody bloody blah blah blah. And then there's a counter-argument that says these women who were 20, 25 who went to the bed hotel bedroom of this man, somehow were exploited and didn't know what they're doing. I I I struggle to reconcile those two things. Yeah, I agree. Um I mean again, I'm stressed, I'm the father of a daughter. I think anyone that's a scumbag is a scumbag, but at the end of the day, we somehow want to scrub out female sexuality from this story, which I don't really understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Well, I've got a question on this, which is quite interesting. So when people say believe survivors, what do you think they should mean in practice? Whether you automatically, is it automatic belief or something more nuanced? How common are false sexual assault accusations? I'm gonna read that again. I'm sorry. Hold on. Um And there's a question surrounding this. When people say believe survivors, what do you think they should mean in practice? Is it automatic belief or something more nuanced? How common are false sexual assault accusations?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

The most common figure given is eight percent are false, but the the research ranges from two percent to ten percent. But it's worth noting that the vast majority of sexual assault cases seem not to be reported at all. Um and 83% of women in the at the end of their careers say that they have experienced uh sexual harassment or assault, and 40% of men. Uh so it's a very, very common thing. It that doesn't mean I mean, and and it's a terrible thing, it can cause incredible amounts of trauma. But the whole issue of full uh of false reports is is a big one and false memories. My own first piece of research that I ever I ever got involved with was on can you detect a real from a false memory and what does that mean? And it was uh in the 90s when this was a very hot topic, and simply doing the research meant people were full of hatred uh about it. I'm like, this could be actually, I wasn't thinking so much for the forensic reason, but the psychological benefit of treating people. And um turns out it's very hard to detect, and that memories are so, especially when someone has been traumatized, uh it's it's very hard to get accurate pictures. So veterans, two years after a terrible event, will describe it very differently, and they have no reason to distort. So there's the issue of uh deliberately fabricating a report, and then there's false memory.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

And you get these on this subject, so you get women who are saying, Oh, I was uh you know repeatedly raped over four years, and you but but at the same time they were getting very well paid and they had the option to leave. So why would you stay for four years?

SPEAKER_04 16:09

I think that the more critical point is the weaponization of this, is what Simon spoke of. You looked at the Justice Kavanaugh's hearings on on this this woman that was laughing during the hearings. I know people I know girls have been raped, okay? You know exactly when it happened, how it happened, uh, who was there. She couldn't remember anything. She couldn't remember when it was, who was there. Yeah, I kind of think he was there. And she was laughing. If you watched the I watched congressional hearings, being you know, interested in politics, it was evident that this woman was lying through her teeth. And then the other one, the E. J. Carol, which isn't uh, you know, who claimed that at Bergdoff's or something in a in a changing room this happened.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

She couldn't name the date. Yeah, she couldn't name the date. She couldn't name the year. The year. She had no witness.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

And she won a$30 million. So there's there's what he's saying, which is eight to ten percent are, you know, um normal people that that that that you know uh are falsely accused.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Then no, no, it's eight to ten percent of false accusations, yeah, falsely accused, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:19

And you've got high-profile cases like this coming out against political opponents consistently over social, you know. Just consistently the left against the right. Yeah, and it's the usual left-wing scumbags that are doing this, right? And and they're they're essentially watering down the rapes of other women, um, real rapes of women and real sexual abuse by weaponizing this, right? Because no one's gonna, you know, at the end of the day, that now there's a backlash against this, right? Again, we are, I keep going back to this, but it is it is all social media driven, right? Everything that we're talking about is social media driven.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

And what makes me sad is I used to be on Unifem's uh volunteer group here, and Unifem is the United Nations Development Fund for Women, and it also included women and children. And we looked at sex trafficking in in places in Asia, so Cambodia, Thailand, big epicenters of real sex trafficking. And I would look at literally photos that they would provide as evidence, and it would be four-year-old little boys and girls chained to beds where sex tourists would come in and rape them. And that gets so little press, like nothing, no one cares, it's been going on for decades and decades. Sex tourists keep coming and going, nothing hits the media, and yet this, which looks like a group of high-powered businessmen hanging out with hookers, this is in the media non-stop. How can that be right?

SPEAKER_04 18:51

And the UN has been in is is you know had multiple internal investigations on their uh their staff and UN soldiers actually participating in sex trafficking uh in Africa. The UN.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

This is very difficult because you know, people suffer from trauma. Terrible things happen to people, you know, whether they're females or males. And I think one of the things that needs to be said, you know, based on experience that that that that I know, is that it can take years sometimes for people to actually fully recover what happened to them, particularly if they were if they were young and they were seriously traumatized. They have a it's possible to kind of believe two things simultaneously at the same time. You have a kind of very um damp down kind of awareness that something happened, and it's only when you work on it, you know, with a psychologist, perhaps using hypnosis, that you start to discover the details of what's happened. It's not uncommon for that to take decades. So, in terms of how we deal it, because the question is, you know, do we believe? You know, we believe you, you know, we me too. Um I have sympathy with those that take a long time to recover those memories, because it's you would know as a psychologist, but it can take a very long time. It can affect your whole life and it can take a very long time. And I think that's that presents a real difficulty in terms of the forensic process, which is how do you deal with something which is based on something that happened 30 or 40 years ago where there's obviously no evidence? Um, you want to give a fair hearing to the those of the accused, but on the other hand, it seems very clear that there is trauma. I don't honestly don't know how you deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And if there's no hard evidence, then can we be quick to name and shame people, pull them down?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

I mean, you know, if there's political benefit to be to be gained, yes. I mean that's what happened to Trump. That's what happened to that to that um uh judge. What was your name? Kavanaugh. Right, right. Justice Kavanaugh.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

It's so damaging. I was at a seminar last week with this American motivational coach called JT Fox, bit of a character. But anyway, he at one point he said, put your hands up in the audience if you like Donald Trump. And obviously some people put their hands up, but a lot of people didn't. And he said to one of the women, why don't you like him? She said, Because he's a paedophile. I was like, my God, you can't use words like that and band them around. But you can't you know it's it's just I mean, it's libel, isn't it? You cannot be throwing words like that around.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Because like there are people who are sexually attracted to children and who are not acting on it. And they are they are technically paedophiles.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

That's the majority of paedophiles according to the literature, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:27

I I don't know about the statistics, but yeah, but there are many people who are attracted to younger people, and and and that's really sad. And to hear the stories of how they how how they struggle with themselves, and then the term paedophile is now being used as as a slur to suggest somebody has acted in a sexually inappropriate way, which is a totally different thing, related though.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Uh it's just like, oh, it's kind of well, I didn't think I'd get a chance to mention Socrates twice. But of course, Socrates, uh one of the greatest thinkers. In the West, it was a big big fan of little boys, was he?

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Um that was most of most of the most of Athens.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

When when you sent when you sent me if you were a rich Athenian and you sent your son to study at the feet of a well-known teacher like Socrates, it was accepted that there might be a little bit of you know buggering. But it was rife in the buggering.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

It was rife in ancient Greece and in Rome that they were always well, there's a lot of art depicting a lot of bigger than the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Oh, it's the same in Latin. I mean the the the view there was there wasn't that much attention paid to kind of other sexual. The key thing was you did have to get married and you did have to have children. That was your responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

This is then and this is now. And now we've got steady.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

The floodgates are opened. Socrates lives. Still happens in the Middle East, right? Young boys. You should listen to the the soldiers in F that came back from Afghanistan. It it's uh because of the the the the women in their religion.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Well, the unavailability of women.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

Well, that too. Uh that they they they routinely have these uh on in this in the in the bases where they had Afghan soldiers and American soldiers. They had like a Saturday evening where they would truck in these boys, uh young boys, for the Afghan soldiers to to to molest. Oh dear. Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, and yet that's not kind of taking over social media, is it?

SPEAKER_04 23:22

I mean it's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Well the no the the media, let's be clear. I mean, the media, particularly in America, but increasingly in the UK and to some extent in Europe, um, it's driven by political agendas. So, you know, who who gets blamed, who gets cited? This is all driven by political vendettas. Yeah, it's all driven by the desire of people to have control. And if you look in the US, the same companies that control the media, you know, control the arms companies, control, you know, the investment funds, they're all they're all related. Uh it's to get financial benefit, really, whether it's through controlling governments or you know, uh I'm sorry to say, you know, that's what affects the agenda. I think that's a good idea. Well, it's political.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Sorry, well, just one more point on on your your what you just said. It's it's political as well as cultural, right? So if the the the the the the allegations is against uh a white politician who is in the opposition, that's fine. But the cultural, the pedophilia that happens in in culturally in in Islamic uh communities in the UK, for example, are overlooked, for example. So that there is a uh and the media is the media is a a culprit of that.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Well the BBC is to blame because they they use the term paedophile for anyone that has sex with someone that's significantly younger than. I mean, to be clear, pedophilia, you know, is sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children, right? Which is quite a different thing from a middle-aged man sleeping with a 17-year-old girl. I mean, that's that's grince Andrew, that's grubby. For most of us, we think that's kind of rather nasty and grubby, but it's not pedophilia, right? I mean, sorry, I know, but I mean Megan Kelly got into terrible trouble for saying that. I'm not saying it because I'm justifying it. It's just that there's a difference, you know. She was involved apparently in some of that. Megan Kelly, yeah. I doubt it. Oh no, sorry, never never mind. The other maybe you're thinking of somebody else. Yeah, the other maybe. Oh, you're thinking of the yacht girl. Yeah, the yacht girl. Megan Markle, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, yacht girls, I mean, that's sort of that's a bit more high-end. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Um so um, me too is the topic.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Okay, let me let me ask another question. So, do we do we think, well, are Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein examples of elite immunity? And how did power, money, and social status shape the way their behavior was dealt with? And what do we see? Similar dynamics in everyday workplaces and institutions.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Well, I will jump in real quick. You've got two competing sort of scenarios, right? You've got one, which is the casting couch issue, right? So it's part of the industry since Hollywood has existed, right? So he wasn't doing anything different than the Warner Brothers guys weren't doing in the 1930s, right? And then you've got Epstein, which was running sort of this, who knows, this black ops kind of thing, in which there was blackmail involved. There was and and as we just discussed, normal parties that he was throwing, right? So I I know guys who were in finance, you know, old, you know, old school bankers in the 80s and the 90s that went to his parties, right? And you, if you ask any of them, they didn't see anything that was out of out of order, right? So, yeah, there were pretty girls, but it was a social scene where the who's who of New York, finance and business showed up for, right? You went to his parties because, you know, Trump was there, uh, Howard Ludnik was there. All of the the big names were there, right? All the Democrats. Yeah, yeah. You're in finance.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

So maybe do you go to any of any of these meetings? I'm not that old. I'm not that old.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

I'm not that old. Um, but you know, we have friends in Dubai, for example, that have gone to parties in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, in which one of the Arab sheikhs throws it or whatever, you're there. You don't know what will surface 10 years later that it turns out that the guy was, you know, running a child's sex trafficking or whatever, whatever he's doing, but you just attended a party, right? It goes back to your your point that you know, uh, but I think there's two competing issues here. Uh, and both, I'm not saying either one is right, but I'm just saying that one is um a political sort of blackmail sort of thing that went on, particularly on the island, and the other one was sort of modus operandi for uh for the the industry, right? And he just got called out on it. Uh, and then recently did he as well, right? So um, you know, has this been going on? This has been going on for for hundreds of years, thousands of years, where rich people, you know, had their way, rich men had their way with uh, you know, with the in terms of the sexual marketplace, right? Because they had money.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah, and I remember at university, ironically, they had a part-time jobs board for students because obviously, you know, a lot of us were too broke to pay our fees, and you had to have part-time jobs, and for every normal part-time job, there was an escort agency advertising for students because students were actually a big demographic for them. And we all know that the girls that said yes, they were paying paid a huge amount of money. I mean, they'd say they'd just have dinner with a guy, but we all knew he's not paying all that money just for dinner. Um, and they'd have lots of cash, and you know, we're living, they have nice jewellery and getting gifts of cash. And, you know, they'd made that conscious decision. They can, they can no, I don't want to work in McDonald's flipping burgers for minimum wage. This is what I'd rather be doing instead. And it was a conscious decision. And I I looked at it and I really needed the money, but I thought, you know, it really isn't for me. I'll I'll do four different part-time jobs to make the same money and work my butt.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

But but it's a voluntary thing, right? So that's the same. Is it that look, do you, you know, 20 years later, that same girl comes, comes to goes to to to to gets a lawyer and go gets on social media to say that, you know, I was abused and I was exploited when I was a college student.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

You'll find a lot of thinking um in America and other places, which say that nobody volunteers to be a sex worker, you know, that all the people that are involved in that industry are victims one way or another. That's nonsense. And uh and I'm sad to say you're right, because in my first year at Oxford I wrote an article for ISIS about exactly this. This was way back when, you know, no social media, no anything. It was it was advertisements in magazines like Private Eye, where where students, female students at Oxford, would go to London at the weekend and and would have sugar daddies. And these were supposedly among the top 1% most intelligent women in in England or the world who got into these colleges, but they could make you know enough money in one weekend, I assume, to uh to pay for half their expenses, you know. And they were choosing to do it.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And often they're meeting successful men with with money, and there's something attractive about that for a lot of women. So it's uh it's not always just about money.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I think a lot of this though is about exploitation of power. Like if you have someone who's under the age of 18, are they really capable of choosing? Are they choosing? If you're uh say an actress and and and you want a job, but having sex with uh the producer is is basically a requirement or is a clear request. Like, do you have uh do you have a lot of space to say no? Well, you can go and be a librarian. Well, age 16 you kind of can't.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Well I yeah, I think you yeah. If you don't you've got to be very careful about what you do and do not describe as free choice. I mean, you know, the the data shows, and I know this because I'm just single dad, that by the time they get to their sixteenth year, a slight majority of women in England and America are already sexually active. Why did why did I look that up? Because I wanted to know what to expect. I think that number is lower. Uh it's probably well, it goes up and it goes down. But my point is it's not because someone's exploiting them, it's because it's a normal part of human sex human life, and they're making decisions to begin sex lives, you know, at that particular time. So so to your point, uh what point do we say you're not entitled to make those choices because I know better, because you're only 16. And I can say, as a parent, it's very difficult. I mean, I had a very strong-willed, highly intelligent daughter, and she was very clear uh what she wanted to do, and it was none of my fucking business, you know, frankly, right from the beginning. Yeah. And it was a shock to me because it was the first thing she hadn't shared with me uh in in detail, as far as I know. Um, and it was a bit of a shock. And all my female friends said, You're stupid, Simon. There's no way she was ever going to share that with you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Um so so this and on that subject, I mean, I I had friends at school who were extremely sexually active at age 13. You know, quite a lot of the girls were losing their virginities at 13, 14. They, you know, they knew the karma suture by the time they were 15. So I don't think every everyone is, you know, this innocent gullible wall of flower.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah, I think when you then kind of create a trade with a middle person and and uh you know, a middle-aged person say so that the the 13-year-old is now having sex, and that's a whole you see the the the the Athenians, and I'm sorry, you know, they would have said it's it's jolly.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

I mean, if if it's a good idea for you know highly educated uh gentleman uh in his fifties who's got lots of knowledge and lots of contacts, you know, to become the lover of a of a young boy because he can help him. It's a form of patronage, you know. I mean, I know that our culture's changed somewhat.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Um actually when I was on the volunteer group for Unifam, one thing we did dis discover is you know, we analyse why are these men going to places and they want sex with minors, you know, what's the attraction? And a lot of the time the answer was because they're less likely to have diseases.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

It's the STDs that drove them to kind of go younger and younger and younger. And uh, you know, it's a different mentality.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, I think the argument that people don't have autonomy uh, you know, I on the subject of me too, I just wanted to say something else. Um there there has been, in addition to all the other things that we've described, like, you know, Black Lives Matter and Me Too, which is you don't you you believe all women, you know, because men are essentially evil, um, therefore it's likely that they're telling the truth, which is obviously ridiculous. Um, there's been, you know, an attempt to build up this idea that men are predatory in the media. So again, uh on the BBC, yeah, and I got so sick of the BBC because they would serve up these surveys. So there was a survey which said that you know, women at universities in the UK, 30% of women at universities in the UK, could expect to be subject to sexual assault. And uh and my own daughter had just gone to SOAS in London, a hotbed of radical Marxists, unfortunately. She's far too sensible uh to fall for any of that. Um, she um she was because she at that stage we were somewhat closer, she'd read the same survey because I phoned her up and she laughed and she said, Um, you've seen the survey, haven't you? And uh and she said, Dada, it's it's just rubbish, you know. I've got lots and lots of friends, and none of us have had any trouble. So when I so I here's what I, you know, a survey. If let me propose a survey, because you know, I've I've been a management consultant for decades. I know very well that you can you can position survey questions so that you get the answer that you want. So it's so here's here's a survey question, right? Have you ever in your relationship had intercourse with your partner when you would rather have not? So the answer to that to anyone who's been in a long-term relationship is yes, okay, but that's rape.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Okay, yeah, that's a good point. That's the rape. That's rape, okay?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Because relationships are about negotiations, right? I've had a terrible week. I've just come back from Hong Kong. You know, I've been beaten black and blue by my client. I just want to go to bed. My wife wants me to make love to her. Obviously, I'd rather not. But I maybe I do because she's my wife, and vice versa. The definition of that is rape according to that survey. Yeah, because you're having sex against your will.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, that's yeah, yeah. I would say that's pretty shoddy research.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Well, yeah, of course it is. They're they're they're left wing. And the idea is that the idea is that it's shoddy. I mean, there's I've heard even worse, but it's it's research that's designed to give a particular answer, which is that you know, men are predatory, um, as opposed to relationships are complicated and and they involve a lot of negotiation, you know, and then and there's this myth that when you're in a relationship, you kind of gel and you're in the same cycle, and you want we want sex at the same time, and you, you know. Um so all of those things require negotiation.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Um but this is causing tremendous amount of of problems with younger people and and having normal relationships with men and women, right? You've got a lot of women that are single, a lot of men that are single, uh, and there's so much hatred towards men, you know, and they do you know they do these podcasts where they interview young girls, and every one of them says, Oh, men are horrible, men are horrible. And then on the other hand, you've got men that are saying, look, we're we're okay, but we're not gonna go there anymore, we're just not gonna date any longer.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

I'm I'm I'm yeah, they're called incels, right? In voluntary celebrates, um, and they're much, much maligned as well. I mean, to me, my I have compassion for men who feel bruised like that and unable to make relationships. But um, it's gone completely out of my head, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Um I think perspective is always needed. And I think we need to realise that you know some girls come from different backgrounds, they maybe you know, from a poorer segment of society or they don't have particularly loving parents, whatever it may be, but they're on a journey, and they've you know they've chosen to go down that road of making a lot of cash, being on plush private jets, going to you know, amazing tropical islands and hanging out with the movers and shakers. The same with the yacht girls, you know, the really you know, super rich, super successful. I mean, for a lot of young girls who are highly impressionable and and all those things have a lot of value. And you know, if you could be making thousands of dollars there rather than, as I said, flipping burgers for minimum wage, then why wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Were you regretting it as you flip those burgers?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

I honestly remember I sometimes think if life was like Benjamin Button, where you went from old to young, I definitely would have made a lot of very different choices in many ways.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

And you'd have been on one of those yachts?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Um probably.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Yeah, but um no, I mean I think a lot of those women or the girls who choose that as you put it, uh, they started very young. They often started pure pre-pubescent. They were uh many of them were used for sex within their families or within the outer reaches of their families. And so they were trained at a young age. And so it was an easier, as as one pimp explained to me, that he goes for women who who were already trained. They're damaged. Because that way his job is easier. And you know, that's so the idea that you know a 13-year-old has the choice to become a prostitute, I'm like I'm not talking about 13 years old.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

People who are like 17, 18, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

If we're talking about above 18, I I think that's a different thing. But I think when you're talking below that.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

But I definitely wouldn't ever say it's a choice below.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

So I the fact is that people do the men and women do choose to go down that road. Uh it's not something we'd want for our children, generally. Uh I I'd like to say something else, because there's something that I've observed, which is that I think women in today's culture, and it's true in the expat culture in Singapore, get social kudos from talking to other women and criticizing men, sometimes making allegations of inappropriate behavior. You know, because I've been the victim of this a couple of times myself, and the the only reason I know about it is because somebody from another female from that group has said, Oh, you never believe what so-and-so is saying about you. And I'm a complete celibate. I don't, I don't really have a sex life to speak of. So it's just it's true. Well, we have another podcast on that. We have evidence to the contrary. Yeah, on the contrary, I'm uh, you know, I'm I'm about to get a medal from the Pope. Um, but uh you know, I was very surprised. So I think, and that's that's a sign of where the culture has got to. That if I come to to my my group, my women's group, and I say, Oh, you know what? I was in this situation, I felt very uncomfortable, you know. Um there's kudos.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

You you also have to look at um cultural culturally, like so. If you go to Eastern Europe and and I've had Eastern Eastern European women tell me that, you know that once you're, you know, this this whole idea that when you're 18 or you you're 21, they've gone to the US before, they don't understand, like, you know, they that a 21-year-old is only allowed to drink for his, you have to be over 21. They're like, you know, we're so mature at 14, 15, we're already getting jobs. Um, you know, we're getting on with life. We I don't understand when they watch Hollywood movies that they portray teenagers as sort of idiots who don't know, uh can't make their own decisions. And if you look at the rest of the world, uh whether you look at Asia or China or India or whatever, young women are are in the workplace at 16 already. Um they are you know earning money, helping their parents, or whatever it is they're doing. Uh, and then we've got this, we've cuddled this generation of morons uh in the West to think that they have no idea what they're doing. They need to be told what you know, any mistake they make is it's not their fault, right? Including like sort of gunning people down or running their cars over them or whatever. Oh, they're poor. She was only 17, right? It's like, dude, seriously, you knew exactly what you were fucking doing. Um, so you know, I I think there's a a cultural divide on on this issue as well. I think people in in other cultures are less forgiving for for this type of topic. They're like, these people knew what they were doing. Um, now I'm not talking about the the whole you know trafficking where people are chained to beds. You know, there's this there's this idea that are you kidding, right? You you knew exactly what you were doing. You're you're you're not you're not 10. You're you're like 16, 17. Uh you were going out with an older man uh because of you know it was a thrill, it was there was money involved, it was cool places to go, and then 20 years later, uh, you know, because there's a political because he's running for Senate now, and some some Democrat operative scumbag comes to you and says, Oh, you know what, you know, uh why don't you you you you you you're in pictures with him, wasn't he exploiting you and we're gonna get a settlement for you?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Oh yeah, okay. Well, I remember when I was my first job in a bank, and we had this rather dashing external legal counsel. So it was an absolute silver fox. I would have been 22, and he was over double my age, but very handsome, real gentleman, and you know, we just so happened to sit next to each other at an event, and we got on like a house on fire, and it was electricity. And you know, people could look at that and say, Well, you know, he's rich and powerful, and you know, she's obviously kind of taken in by everything that comes with it, because you know, obviously he went to the best restaurants and places, and you know, it was it was actually a great lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

So, did anything happen?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yes, we had a relationship, but after a while I I learned, you know, having someone who's playing the same music as your parents is not that cool.

SPEAKER_04 42:44

You could go into this Me Too thing for you to make some money, you know. But you know, I you know, I don't regret it, and I learnt a lot, and you know, I look back and it was a lot of fun, but I'm just saying it could have looked all wrong from some angles, but I think a lot of women, a lot of women like or fantasize having some kind of a sexual relationship with an older authority figure like a boss. Like we talked about this in the last podcast where I had a you know, I had a one of my female employees come to me and say, I had dreams about you, I'm having an affair with you, why why did I dream this? You know, so I went straight to HR, obviously, immediately, right? Because I knew that you know, if I don't, I'm gonna be fucked, you know. Did you do that? Well, yeah, I went to HR and I said what you know, just uh just you know, to so it's documented so that you know You did? Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Of course. This is an American company, I suppose, was it?

SPEAKER_04 43:37

Yeah, yeah, of course. But uh but you know, this is you know, but this was in this would have been in the early 2000s. Uh but it was so this me too thing is not new. Uh it's been around for ages. As long as you've got this sort of this this feminist Western orientation in terms of whether it's in politics or business or from a social standpoint. Standpoint, you're going to get these crazy women that wind up other women.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

You can't tar everyone with the same brush. So there's a huge amount of genuine cases. And Me Too has been very good at giving people a voice and not feeling so alone and that it can actually talk about traumatic experiences.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

And how do you think it's increased like the policies have improved, the visibility has improved, and the amount of reporting has improved. But the incidences haven't changed.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

So there's no reduction.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

So there appears to be no reduction in experiences of sexual harassment in the workplace.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

But what about the safeguards? So you're saying that the reporting is better, but are there safeguards in place now? I mean, you would know this as a recent sort of from a large company. Are there safeguards in place?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Well, obviously, in institutions, workplaces, you know, it's you can definitely have all your sexual harassment training and and there's definitely an investigation process. But outside of that, you know, when it's someone having parties with the rich and famous and young girls, obviously there's nothing there. Um, there's no there's no paperwork, I don't think, that people had to fill out, there's no liability.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

No, but no, but what I mean is like, so if there if there is a a report that comes that would have come to you about sexual harassment, um you've got to investigate both sides, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:21

100%, but that's that's a different topic.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

We're looking at the culture's changed so much.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah, we're I mean, we're looking specifically at these kind of public scenarios models and actresses who were, you know, used not just for their talents on the screen or in the magazine.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

They have the talent too. Be careful.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, but I mean I had a friend who was a top model, she was a supermodel in London back in the 90s, and she worked for the number one modelling agency in the world, and she used to tell me how the modelling agency basically pimped out all the models. So, for example, they'd have an ambassador of a country saying, I like that model, I want to sleep with her, and they would set it up and there would be payment. And if the models refused, they were in deep trouble. So, I mean, it's been no more work, it's it's been going on for decades where women, you know, some women are put in very compromising positions, and that is definitely sad and wrong.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

But you can't you have the option of of quitting, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yes, but come on. I mean, you know, so and I think the model Karen Mulder that has just come out with, you know, it's it's come to light that she actually raised this at the time, and they they put her in some sort of mental asylum. Yeah. So she was hushed up. Which brings us to the question, you know, when it is to do with the rich and the famous and the powerful, do things get hushed up?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I think whenever somebody's considered valuable to you, you make exemptions for them. You know, this is the the top lawyer of your firm, or this is the top banker, or whatever it is, you you do what you can to continue to benefit, even if that means hushing things up. And I think companies are very, you know, that that's why I think there are policies in these companies now that are now better, but what they're really doing is reducing their liability so that they can continue and say, look, we've done our best. But the actual safety of the people in the companies hasn't changed much.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

I had a friend of mine that worked for Mizuho in London. And the Japanese banks actually have a sexual harassment fund that they have to so so that they budget that because they know that they're gonna have to do out-of-court settlements with women. Can you believe that?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Yeah, I can believe it. I worked in finance for so long.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

I mean No, no, but but but no Western bank would actually have a line item on sexual harassment payments.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Well, I remember we had no I I I 100% believe it because we used to have a private jet full of models with the clients, and they'd all be screwing on the private jet. Oh, wow. And it was it was how you closed the business part of the transaction.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

I've been involved in that. You know, I was a business developer. Well, you're on that private jet business development manager for a for a large British um multinational, and we had two senior politicians from Malaysia who came to London. One was a tan three. Um, and when they arrived, they had very specific requirements. It wasn't me that got it, it was my younger colleague Alex, who's an Orthodox Jew, who's just he didn't know what to do. So he went to the desk of the hotel, it's a West End hotel. He said, I need two blonde girls, aren't they? Whatever they needed. And and he looked absolutely baffled, and the the guy at the desk said, Well, you understand we can't have anything to do with that, but if you were to ring this number, you'd be like that's all you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

It's all part of concierge services.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

Well, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. But we don't know anything about it, that's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Yeah, yeah, so actors, models, and miniatures.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Well, in case he was a cop or whatever, you know. Right, right, right, right. It's very much part of the industry where Alex, who's very upsorious, was was appalled. But um, bless him.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

And it goes both ways. My friend's husband in London is an actor. And back when Kevin Spacey was the groping young boy. He was the director of um the old Vic Theatre for years. And it was well known with all the male actors that if you wanted to get a part, you'd have to sleep with her.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

You know, I have a Kevin Spacey story.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Do you remember that? No.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

So I I was a member of the Tokyo Long Twenty. No, of course not. Do I look like I would do that? Um so I was a member of uh the Tokyo Long Tennis Club uh in central Tokyo, and I was changing in the the locker room. And you know women have that feeling like somebody's staring at them or whatever. And I look up and there's this guy there just looking at me like changing, and I didn't recognize who he was. And so I'm on the tennis court with my pro and we're we're hitting balls, and then the this guy in a suit runs out saying, Oh, oh, um, that that guy over there, he's a famous actor, his name is Kevin Spacey, he wants to play tennis with you. Sure, he does. Yeah, and I was like the bedroom. Yeah, I said, uh I saw him staring at me. I said, Nah. I said I'll take a pass. But who knows? I could have been a Hollywood actor.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

If I take it one thing, you missed your moment, you missed your opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

I well one thing that because we we kind of glossed over this, but it used to be that the data's very interesting on this. You may know that, but decades ago, people, a very high percentage of people met their partners at work, and now those data have changed significantly. A far higher percentage of people meet their partners either socially or through an app, yeah, of one kind or another. And I don't know about this, but I certainly have had multiple relationships with people that I met at work because that's what you did. I mean, because there's no social media, so you either met them at work or you met them socially, and if you were working hard, you were in the office all day, you know? So this is a very see again going back to it's forbidden by companies now.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

Yeah, I know, but uh but but I'm just saying this is a cultural issue, right? So, for example, if you worked in a in corporate Japan, um, you know, I lived in Japan, as you know, for seven years, uh, or one of the Japanese banks, and there they're they're men and women. The women are not given any, at that time at least, not given any real prominent roles because their job was to marry one of the guys, one of the company guys, right? So they matched you according to where you did you graduate from Waseta University, were you a Tokyo University graduate? They matched, made you a guy so that you could get married. Were you assigned to a Japanese lady? Well, no, the company that the the the the the firm that I work for is an American firm. You were assigned to Kevin Space. Thankfully not. Uh and so even though my firm was was was a US firm, you know, the the it was like kind of the bridge on the river Kwai there, right? So it was all local management. And so one of the the country manager came to me and said, So um when do you want us to look find your your wife for you? Uh you need a Japanese wife, and we'll we'll we'll get a banker, you know, uh, you know, we'll get, you know, give us your requirements. So it's again a cultural thing, right? Where in Western organizations, like you said, this is now frowned upon, you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

I was told that when I joined AT, it was a big shock to me because I'd worked for a British company, British companies, and I joined AT Kani, and uh, you know, they read the ride act to me because of my friendly behavior. You know, which is you it's for reputation, probably, right? Well, but it's you know to be if you're around women, I mean uh and more recently I'm sorry, let me get this off. I mean, I I guess I'm a fossil. I mean, more recently I was in an office in a media company, I was writing my book and I was sitting there, um, and I got pulled in by the owner of the company to say, you know, in the um in the twenties, you cannot compliment a woman on her dress. Because I'd said to somebody in the office who'd bought a new outfit, I said, You're looking really good today. And I got I got pulled up for that, you know. I thought how how sad is this? You know, I mean, I can't maybe I'm I've outgrown my usefulness, but at the end of the day, I mean, if you say to me, God, Simon, you're looking a bit sexy, just as you did earlier, Simon. Yeah, that's right. I didn't say that. No, I've got a better one.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

I've got a I've got a a a even better one than that. So a friend of mine was the youngest uh partner uh made at Booz Allen Hamilton in their history, okay? And it was a good friend of mine. Uh he's in a in a client meeting in Boston, and there is he opens the door, the conference room door, for a female CEO who they're they're doing a work doing work with. She then complains to the CEO of Booz Allen Hamilton that that was a huge uh sexual harassment uh issue for her, that he opened he opened the door. He almost lost his job. Uh and this is the youngest, like that rising star, right? Because he opened the door for her and she was having a like a bad day in Baghdad or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Well, we're running out of time, and I do have one question that I'd really like to ask Jonathan. So here's the question: Does focusing on false accusations silence real victims? And for listeners who feel torn between wanting to support survivors and worrying about false allegations, what balanced guidance would you give them?

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Unfortunately, I think it really does silence people. So one of the fears, for example, of some of my clients is if I speak up, people won't believe me. So that that's a real concern. And the other is, and even if people do believe me, how will I be penalized? Because the the research shows that if you do speak up, you're a very high chance of being penalized one way or another. So if you are in that situation, I think think carefully. Like, is it worth it to you? And if it is, wonderful. To be careful, maybe consult a lawyer, try and get some advice, because it can be quite a brutal process, especially if the person you're reporting is a high flyer. Uh, that the company or the organization may try and silence you. And I've seen that multiple times, but you're also potentially making a huge contribution for other women to help protect them and to empower them to do the same.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

This is why it's so frustrating that you know, with these current cases in the media, that you know, I feel like there's a lot of the girls knew exactly what they were doing, and they're taking advantage of making money out of it by now crying wolf, and and that all that's doing is making real victims, it just diminishes the truth and situations that are worthy of media attention.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

Don't get it, yeah. They're just not in the paper at all. Yeah, I think it's not.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

And you know, you look at all the little girls and boys in India and Cambodia and Thailand or wherever it is in the world, Mexico, Brazil are all being you know, truly raped as kids. And that's the case.

SPEAKER_04 55:52

Well, the BBC was hiding Jimmy Savile's uh escapades.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

Right? And he was going to these places, right, Sri Lanka and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

Well, the culture, I mean, you know, I I never worked for the BBC. I contributed a lot over the years, but um, you know, uh in the West, things institutions have changed dramatically since the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s in terms of the not just your ability to articulate what's happened, but the likelihood that you will be believed and taken seriously. That's changed beyond measure. In the 1960s, you know, had a schoolboy gone and complained that something had been done to him, he would have been told to shut up and probably beaten. Probably the same for women, right? Um but it was because it was rife um in in educational institutions in the UK. Um we know that because so many this whole counselling industries that make a living out of something called boarding school syndrome, which is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mostly men who have recovered memories in late middle age, because for some reason it tends to hit them in late middle age, right? They manage to get married, they manage to have children. Um, and um that is coming out, and the law has got much better, and the way that the police handle these things have got much better. Because it is important that there is a process, you know, and the evidence is is sought, and evidence is listened to, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

And you know, when we don't have the hard evidence, we really should refrain from mass hysteria and that's what concerns me about Epstein a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

I mean, look, social media is full of obviously concoction.

SPEAKER_04 57:20

Sure, but then there's there's other cases like in the what's going on in the UK with those the rape gangs, right? I mean, come on. I mean the media doesn't give a shit about it. The police come and visit you if you say grooming gangs. Especially if they're Pakistanis, right? So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Yeah, and for decades they've got away with terrible grooming of genuinely underage.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

It's a political issue now because they're a voting block. So you know they you've you've made them congregate in ghettos in in in every major urban area. And so neighbor politicians don't want to go after these guys because they they it would it may cause problems with uh with getting their their MPs in. And that's just sick. That is.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Well, on that note, um thank you guys for sharing your views today, and thank you for joining us for this topical debate on Ella Podcasts. The Epstein and Weinstein cases uh are a stark example of what happens when power, silence, and disbelief collide. The challenge now is to build cultures and systems where bona fide survivors are not dismissed, where accusations are tested fairly and supported by hard evidence, and where power does not buy impunity. If you want to suggest a topic for our next episode, please write into Ella Podcasts on Facebook. Please rate and share this episode. And um wish giving you a big hug, as always.