AI, Anxiety and the Future of Work: How Automation Is Reshaping Careers

Some jobs are already disappearing. Others are rapidly evolving. And for millions of people, the real fear is no longer whether AI is coming, but whether humans will still have a meaningful place in the future workforce.

Hosted by Ella Sherman, Host and Founder of Ella Podcasts, and Dr. Jonathan Marshall, Co-Host and Clinical Psychologist, this episode explores how AI, automation, and emerging technologies are reshaping industries, careers, education, and society itself. From law and finance to healthcare, customer service, and the creative industries, AI is already changing how businesses operate, eliminating some roles while creating entirely new opportunities.

In this episode:
• Ella Sherman - Host and Founder of Ella Podcasts
• Dr. Jonathan Marshall - Co-Host, Clinical Psychologist
• Duncan Reed - C-suite leader in technology transformation with experience at Microsoft, AWS, and Workday
• Jeff Paine - Managing Director of PS Engage Global Government Relations

💬 Quotes:
• “The future may not belong to the people who know the most, but to those who adapt the fastest.”
• “If the job is transactional, those roles are likely to be impacted first.”
• “Curiosity and lifelong learning are becoming essential survival skills.”

Key takeaways:
• AI is likely to eliminate repetitive and transactional jobs first
• Human skills like judgment, empathy, and adaptability remain critical
• AI may reshape education, hiring, and career development
• Lifelong learning and curiosity are becoming essential survival skills
• AI’s impact depends on how humans choose to use it

⏱️ Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction to AI and the Future of Work
1:49 AI Efficiency and Small Businesses
3:25 AI, Education & Graduate Readiness
5:38 Which Jobs Are Most at Risk?
12:19 Which Careers Will Survive?
14:13 Can AI Replace Therapists & Doctors?
18:45 What Should Students Study Now?
22:55 Fear of Mass Unemployment & Society’s Future

AI is already reshaping work, education, creativity, and society. The real challenge is adapting without losing the human connection that gives life meaning.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:07

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. In part one, we discussed AI and what will happen to our livelihoods. Let's focus now on which jobs are most likely to survive and which will thrive. Talking about this hot topic are Dr. Jonathan Marshall, a Stamford and Harvard University graduate, who's a leading clinical psychologist and a former professor. We also have with us today Duncan Reid, a C suite leader driving technology-enabled transformations. He's worked in leadership positions for Microsoft, Amazon Web Services, and Workday. And we also have Jeff Payne, the founder of PS Engage Global Government Relations, who consults on public policy for the world's biggest tech companies. So let's just very quickly go back into what is AI before we go to Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Well, I I guess most people's experience of AI is the use of uh tools like Chat GPT to really help you uh accelerate the way that you gather and synthesize knowledge quite quickly. Um and you know the question of how that gets used in the workforce, I think, is how we're gonna talk a little bit today.

SPEAKER_06 1:16

And Jeff, you were just saying about your spouse and the way she uses AI in her legal role.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, if you're doing things like proposals and you want to do a proposal on a certain, you know, type of law uh with the certain right people. Well, what used to take probably three to four days, it's now being done in three to four hours. And I think that efficiency is really good. Uh, one of the things I do is I work with SMEs at the American Chamber of Commerce and tell them how they can use tools like ChatGPT or Copilot to help make their business much more efficient. Because if you work at the SME, you realize that you do everything. You do marketing, you do HR, you do all kinds of things. So that efficiency of AI is really known in these little companies where the people do lots of jobs.

SPEAKER_06 2:02

That makes sense. So, Jonathan, what are the psychological effects when people's skills become outdated and worthless? And will this create a global mental health crisis?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I think we've already got a lot of mental health problems in the world, but I think as people feel obsolete, uh there could be lots of problems. I mean, perhaps AI will be able to help in terms of the counseling and the companionship and the intimacy. In fact, only a few kilometers away there's a there's a robot that looks like the creator. It's it's she she she has the same color hair and skin, and and the idea is perhaps we'll have companion robots, but uh can you send it to work? Exactly. I'm on a beach I'm there. My robot self is there. But I think it's gonna create more anxiety because we're gonna find create a funny sort of intimacy with machines and therefore be less competent with fallible humans. Um but I don't think the machines will be able to substitute for humans completely. So there I think will be anxiety and a sense of well, obsolescence.

SPEAKER_06 3:08

And I've worked in obviously financial services and I've seen a lot of back office roles basically being eliminated, and it's mainly because it's going obviously to cheaper locations, but also because things have been automated. So a lot of the manual processes have disappeared. And you you see a lot of people disappear with that, and you always wonder what did they go on to do? You know, how did they reskill themselves after 30 years in the same role?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

I think you may see a change in the educational system. Um, I was reading an article about Australian universities, and they actually had three students in the article talking about how they use AI to do all their homework and they submit it and they still get passing grades. And while the professors know that they've used AI based on their submissions, the the students said that they modified it slightly to be able to get over that. But um, you know, at the end of the day, you're gonna have a degree, but you're not really gonna know too much if you haven't taken the time to learn what you're supposed to be learning. So I think education will you'll see changes in education over the next few years, I think. In what way? Well, to make the students AI ready, because the challenge, I think, is a lot of the students that are graduating, they typically would have been trainees or interns, but those jobs are the ones that are easiest replicated by AI in a faster way. Um, even the legal system has changed. So instead of having like junior lawyers that are paid, the clients are saying, we don't want to train your junior lawyers, we want a fixed fee and not billing hours, we want a fixed fee to do this job, this legal job, whatever it may be. So I think that the you know those entry-level jobs, um, and one of the things we'll talk a bit about is the anthropic um claude release this year on financial services and legal, they're challenging legal firms, they're challenging financial services firms uh using agents and things like that. So I think I think they have to prepare students in a better way. Uh you can't just graduate. When I was growing up, I just had my degree in economics, I could get a job at a bank or whatever. But I think nowadays people have to have different skill sets to be successful in the new AI world.

SPEAKER_06 5:19

So which roles are we already seeing being eliminated by AI? And which countries are also going to be the hardest hit?

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah, look, I I think um I think there's the that question about the efficiency dividend, if you like. You can look at this from a number of different lenses. If if your goal is to drive efficiency of operation, then then the journey that you described is a really inevitable one where, you know, let's say 40 years ago you had a typing pool, and then that that you know computers came in, and then the typing pool shrank, but it was still doing the thing, and then you realized that that was high volume and low value, so you might have put that offshore somewhere nearby, and then it progressively ended up in India or maybe the Philippines, because it was the same set of tasks at a lower cost, and that's been a progressive journey. And I think you you will see the technology again, it it will probably take some of those tasks out. So so that that's a kind of a natural end, I guess, to something that has been in train for a really long time. I I think it's worth calling out though, to your point, Jonathan, that that once we've gone past the conversation about efficiency dividend and we start to be interested and and concerned about um the sort of humanity and the intimacy, you probably should take a more clear-eyed look at this and say, okay, so if if if humanity no no longer needs to do the work equivalent of cleaning under the fridge, because nobody really wants to do it, right? Then what can we and what should we spend our time doing as humans? That's the positive way to do it. Well, and and and it touches on how we think about things from a societal perspective, what what we think progressive taxation is for, and and actually what we think our societies are for, right? If if if we if we genuinely um again want to take the next move forward where you know in the early 1900s we had 11-year-olds working working down mines, yeah, you know, 14 hours a day, six days a week in the dark, and we decided that probably wasn't a good idea, you know, you then say, well, that's not a bad thing that that's changed. And it creates the time and opportunity for people to come out and be educated and and for things to change and move forward. And so I think there will be a set of questions that we're gonna ask our have to ask ourselves as to say, well, what what would we like to do with our time now? And and not allow the efficiency dividend and and the the value that gets extracted from that all to be concentrated in a in a very small number of hands. That's not that's that bit's not a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

And is that a bit inevitable? Like, like is AI sort of the best AI, it it sort of outdoes all the other AIs, so you've got like a champion AI, and then the people who are in charge of that AI get more profit than anyone else?

SPEAKER_03 8:25

I I I I I I touched on it a bit a bit in the in the previous episode. Um there it there will be no moat, right? In in the technology industry, we talk about motes all the time. About, you know, what is it, what it's a di what's a differentiator for you in your business that means that you get to keep the those customers, you get to keep that money. In the world of of of AI, that that moat will disappear. It's it's highly competitive, and but in the end, these things are based on internet scale information, the the consumption of the data, and they all do the same thing. The mathematics is the same, they all do the same thing. There is no differentiation between Claude or Chat GPT or Deep Seek or Gemini, that all the models are the same with small tweaks, all the same data. So that's not that's not the thing that's gonna differentiate anybody. It's how humans think about how that gets used, both at a societal scale but also at a smaller business scale, about what cool thing can I launch that people are going to pay for and is going to be useful to them. Instead of it being a 20-year journey, you know, I've worked in enterprise software for 30 years where what you're actually trying to do is get a customer to buy your software for 30 years, that life cycle might change to be one year or two years because somebody comes up with something a whole lot better. So it might be some more volatility, but I think we have to be positive about this change as humans and embrace it and say, well, cool, we we're gonna have some more time to think about what we want this stuff to look like.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah, uh I mentioned in the last episode as well, a lot of governments, especially in Asia, they're looking at the ethical use of AI, and a lot of the big AI companies, they're doing a lot of work, working with regulators and working with the policymakers to educate them on what they're doing to the local communities for things like employment displacement concerns and that. So there's a lot of effort that goes into that by the companies, but a lot of governments are also looking at that to ensure that AI is used ethically. There's a lot of bad actors in the world, so you want to make sure that it's used for good purposes, and um I think that that's gonna continue uh going forward.

SPEAKER_06 10:40

I was reading that um back office roles will be cut by 50% with the way AI and automation is going. 50% of back office roles. I mean, that's a huge reduction in people. So, I mean, what are these people going to do? What do they need to upskill as or retrain as to stay relevant?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

That's the thing. That there is efforts going into retraining and reskilling. However, I think the displacement is currently faster than the reskilling efforts that are going to take place, and I think that'll be a concern for people. So I think you have to address those concerns because as you say, Duncan, what do we want from a society? We don't want to have a bunch of people that can't fend for themselves and a bunch of people who are actually not a bunch, but a few people that are controlling kind of the power behind AI. So there is a compet there is a competitive um level you have to be at to be an AI player, and that's why there's a lot of competition right now to buy up infrastructure and build infrastructure.

SPEAKER_06 11:37

So which roles are the most in jeopardy here?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Well, some of the research I did roles around uh repetitive cognitive work, um, compliance processing, customer service operations, uh basic analysis, they're all being automated first. So this is the the problem with the recent graduates. Uh, and then other roles around policy, regulatory, and strategic oversight are roles that are lagging behind, but they're still gonna happen in the future. And I can tell you in public policy and government relations consulting, that's gonna be a very short curve unless some changes are made, because it's very easy to get the analysis on what happened in the Vietnam elections last weekend and have a pretty good output. So, you know, I think that's businesses are gonna have to evolve to meet that new capability.

SPEAKER_06 12:26

So, which professions do you think will survive and which will thrive?

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Well, uh I think anything, again, that has a more human side to it will survive and thrive. And it's it's really interesting. I have uh I have uh three young adults uh who are at least relatively recently into the workforce. Uh my son is uh computer science guy, a bit like me, and he's probably feeling more concerned than his sisters, uh, one of whom is training to be a nurse and the other one who's a pastry chef, who who are, you know, they're saying, Well, you know, good luck with good luck with trying to AI my um you know the the the pastry that I was here doing at 1 a.m. this morning. Um and and I think you know, it's back to what I said before. It if if if the job is is transactional and doesn't really need you to think very much, then those things are going to be impacted. But we have to ask ourselves the question as to say, well, wouldn't you rather humans don't do things that don't require them to think very much because they're bound to, you know, having a job like that, that's the thing that you do for 40 years, has its own level of soul-destroying thing. It might just keep the wolf from the door, but it surely that's not a very human thing to be, you know, going to an office every day, eight hours a day, and just processing people's expense claims. That that's that's a you know, that's a different kind of torture that we don't see in in our kind of Western societies anymore because we pushed those to places overseas where you didn't have to look at that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

But you're saying that sort of the more human-oriented jobs are the ones that are going to survive. I'm in one of the most human-oriented jobs. Uh it's never it's not gonna stay. Like it's not staying this way.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Well, it won't be this way, yes, exactly. And and look, you know, that's a that's a really important point, is that um your your you've been in practice 30 years, right? It your practice doesn't look now like it did 30 years ago. Pretty close. Really? Pretty close.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Are you sure? Not much change. Like we'll yeah, I mean, really not much change. But right now, with the AI stuff going on, things are like it it yeah. It's not, I mean, I don't know what it will look like, but but like these guys were saying, you know, these colleagues of mine, that clients aren't coming back because Claude and Chat GPT are are satisfactory for them, which I think I I'm very concerned about. Maybe one day they will be, but I don't think they're there now. Yeah, but a lot of people are saying that these intimate, valuable, insightful relationships are with AI. And so they're not seeing psychologists.

SPEAKER_06 15:05

But there's some sort of cost, isn't it? Obviously, a pre-therapy session or a low-cost app that's helping you.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, you've got confidentiality worries, you've got like, you know, my therapist yawned in the last session I had with him. Well, I don't want to go back there. You know, and and and and the imperfections of dealing with a human, whereas with the AI, you've got phenomenal memory and processing power, the people the capacity to see patterns that even a brilliant shrink might might fail to see.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

And you can imagine how AI could replace surgeons, I mean it could replace dentists. I mean, surely I mean people keep saying, well, healthcare, you know, that's always going to be tough, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Roles. I'm not running to that. Dentists, that's for sure. It's funny.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

We're the more pessimistic. Well, I I I think that again, where where we are today with the technology is that the the technology isn't intelligent. It doesn't, it cannot exhibit judgment. It can match patterns that look similar, and it's not the same as human judgments. What's the difference? Judgments I mean, why is a human more because of your ability to bring in new data in almost real time and relate to the experiences in a way that a machine can't. It's just a pattern of data as opposed to being able to relate um information in a more well more human way, I suppose. But aren't we just pattern machines?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

No, I mean, no, we're really not. Okay. I mean I'm not sure maybe I've gone off topic, but I don't quite yet see the difference.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah. So the the when you when you go and ask ChatGPT a question, if you look at the bottom uh where it says in ChatGPT, it says you're on version 5.03 B of the model. So if you're going to ask them the same question tomorrow and you're still on version 5.03b of the model, then you're using the same inputs as you had yesterday. You probably still won't get the same answer, but you're in the same, but you're not the same. And the information that you have and the context that you've operated in has changed in the 24 hours of perception that you've had. The technology has not. Which is why there's such a big deal in the industry when they say, Oh, there's a new model out, we've launched it. What they've done is a context catch-up that will be six months later or three months late, but only for a very narrow part of human experience, which is things that are written down in text form, and largely speaking, things that are written down in English. Right? Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got also got to be really careful socially where you think about the social construct of language. And the fact is that somebody whose first language is Spanish or their first language is Mandarin, they don't see the world in the same way as somebody whose first language is English. You know, from languages there are many things that don't translate. And there's a reason why that is, because those those things have come up through a social construct that is very different, very different value set. Machines don't know any of that stuff. Yeah. That's that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

And that's what I saw on the education piece. So young people aren't doomed. Um, what it was saying is in some cases, young people have better uh ability to use technology, and then also they'll get judged on things like their uh their judgment skills, communication skills, uh their ability to think, uh so and then leverage technology as well. So it's it's they're not doomed if they just had to write a report and they could just do it in chat GPT, but it's a matter of having the ability to have those rad uh rational thinking skills in addition to the ability to use technology.

SPEAKER_06 18:45

So if you're a student now, which roles should you be aiming to become for the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

If you're a student now, the roles may not even exist yet. That's what that's what I'm thinking. Um but I think that leveraging technology is one thing, but I think learning is also an important thing because you do learn a lot around judgment skills and communication skills, and I think that's still going to be an important part of life.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

I imagine creativity is important. Creativity is important.

SPEAKER_06 19:10

Being in professions of creativity and of I would actually disagree with that wholeheartedly. It's somebody who writes screenplays, and is now there's so many AI um platforms that will write the screenplays, and of course the big studios are lapping this up because do they want to pay a writer? No. If they plug it into AI and say, write me a great action movie when this is kind of the base basis of the plot, and it will spin out a screenplay for you. And it's the same with um music. I was at the gym, I know you don't believe me, but I was. I was at the gym a couple of days ago, and uh the guy, the teacher said, right, all the music in the class is done by AI, it's not artists, it's AI. And it was the best music we'd ever heard. It was like, my god, there's gonna be no more Britney Spears and Madonna out there.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

It's gonna be well, we've got to be thankful for some things then. Yeah. Um sorry, I'll gloss over that. I think I think it's it's a really interesting thing. My you know, so so when we're probably all of a similar vintage here, not apart from you yellow, you young thing. Um when we went off to university, that certainly the the push that we were given was hey, go off to university, have some great experiences, and learn how to think. It's less about which course you were doing there, it was less about binding yourself into a profession. It was all about, hey, actually going to university is to learn how to think. Learn how to be in the world and learn how to think. And then we've gone through this thing of, you know, we expect our kids to go into university knowing what they're gonna do when they come out the other end. Now I've always felt that's pretty corrosive. It's not a good idea asking somebody when they're 18, right, you need to make a choice that's gonna be the rest of your life. That's a bad idea. For for very obvious reasons where you you do want to learn how to think, and also genuinely, you don't know what's gonna be out there when you come out the other end, and probably never have been.

SPEAKER_05 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

And and that that set of changes may have accelerated somewhat, but it's still true. Yeah. And and so I think to your point, Jeff, uh for young people to continue to be curious and to to be okay with uncertainty, particularly when you're young, is is actually as it always has been and probably will continue to be, because you don't really know when you're 21. Unless you perhaps if you were a doctor and you were you that was always your thing, but most most people aren't in that space. And maintaining your curiosity, and it's interesting, you know, it's something in the workforce that um all companies that I've worked for and with over the last 20 years have been saying, well, you know, we we were Our people to be lifelong learners. We we want them to be able to respond and deal with the fact that our business is changing and we do things now we never used to do. We don't know what we're gonna be doing in three years' time, but we do want people to be able to move with us. And that will that will continue.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I have a lot of friends who say, Oh, my son and daughter is gonna go to university next year. What should they take? And my advice is still the same today as it's been for a decade or so. Uh it's take something you like, because if you don't like it, you're not gonna be good at it and you're just going down the wrong road. You may have to adjust it for AI and the future of learning, but I do think that you should do things that you like if you're gonna go to a university or college because you want to learn and you want to be doing something that you like. And you may not know. When you're 18, you don't know much about the world. So it's like do something you like. That take a general first year and then figure out what area you want to move in.

SPEAKER_06 22:53

This is a big question. It does sound a bit like a like something from a movie, but um, will it make sense for the rich and powerful to depopulate a planet if many people are no longer needed in their jobs and to preserve all the world's resources for themselves?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

I mean, I know that's a so you're asking, should will the rich exterminate the poor? Because then it makes a bigger, a bigger deal.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

If you've got mass unemployment on a global scale, um you know what do you do with all these people if there's no jobs for them?

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Well are we are we assuming like will there be mass unemployment?

SPEAKER_06 23:29

It depends on what you read, but there's plenty out there saying it's gonna be a massive problem.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yeah. Um I look, I I I don't think there's gonna be mass unemployment, and and I think also to you know to answer your question directly, um look, it would be a pretty short-lived and and somewhat peric victory for these small number of people who, you know, have all the power and all the money. Because what are you gonna spend it on? Where w and where does when you've spent it on things, you know, you can't go and you can't go and buy a super yacht if there's nobody to build the super yacht for you. And then there's no way of replenishing the funds because you know, in that sort of scenario, the concept of money and capitalism probably all just goes away, which is probably again back to the regulatory thing, not not where where as society we would want to end up.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, I think it's I think it sounds like a movie. Um I don't I don't think it's that extreme. I do think that you will have fear of inequality and fear of the unknown. And there's a lot of things in social media that that you know kind of exaggerate that. So I think that that's one thing you'll see. Um, but I do think that we're not gonna have a world where people want to depopulate the world. But I do think that you have to address the wealth and and power concentration because that's what regulators will be looking at and trying to control that to a certain extent. Making sure that the benefits of AI are shared, right? That's kind of the key message.

SPEAKER_06 24:55

But just going back to, I guess, the regular workers on you know, how can they be proactively preparing themselves, upskilling, training? I mean, it's all very well saying, yeah, you need to adapt, be agile, but learn to code. But to what exactly? And not everybody can suddenly become a coder or I think um didn't Bill Gates said there was only going to be like five professions left eventually.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

I don't think he knows everything, but uh I'm wondering what those five were.

SPEAKER_06 25:24

Well they were something like was a coder, uh bioenergy, data center engineers, prompts, scientists, uh but it was very limited.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Yeah, I again I I tend to think that stuff's overstated. I I think to answer your question though, Allah, one of the things that um has been challenging um in recent years by the uptake of of not AI technology but but screen technology in front of us is is the lack of curiosity in that and and the kind of you know the the doom scrolling going not engaging with things but it it distracting your attention. Um and and what I would say, you know, and this is genuinely worldwide if you look at the uptake of um handheld screen devices, whether that's in the Philippines or India, um you know, you're talking about hundreds of millions of new devices going into those populations every year. Um they're connected, they're online. So using some of the free AI-driven services that can help you feed your curiosity is what everybody should be doing. There is a whole ton of things out there that you can learn about that historically, if you couldn't get to a library or you didn't have a professor or you couldn't get an education, you were stuck. Whereas now you could be genuinely living in a small village in rural India, but you've got a$20 smartphone that has an internet connection. As long as you're literate, you can and even if you're not, the thing will talk to you and you can talk back and you can generate a level of literacy and understanding without formal education in a way that humanity never could before. So this is a great equalizer. Absolutely a great equalizer, yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

It's like COVID. Everyone was doing everything at home: healthcare, working, school, whatever. And that was the first time in my whole life in technology that I felt bridging the digital divide was moving in the right direction because everyone had to have technology or access to technology. And I think there could be similar effects to AI as well, enabling people to learn more in that small village they may not have had access before. So that there's a lot of good things about technology as well, uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_06 27:39

Yeah, I guess it's just fear of the unknown for the average man on the street. Not like you tech guys, but excited by it.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

And my my last thing to say, I suppose, is that there's always a view that this is a zero-sum game that you know one part of society will will overachieve and therefore others will be disadvantaged. I I don't subscribe to that. I think it can be an equaliser and that the prosperity, the genuine human prosperity, can be increased for more people.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

I'm intrigued that around this table the two of us are the least knowledgeable about technology, and I think we are the more pessimistic.

SPEAKER_06 28:19

So thank you for joining us today on Ella Podcasts. We have no choice but to stay up to date with developments in AI and adapt in order to stay relevant. Yeah, so that's a note for you and I, Jonathan. How much of the human touch will be eliminated remains to be seen. If you want to suggest a topic from our next episode, please join our Facebook group at Ella Podcasts and message us. Please subscribe, rate, and share this podcast. And sending you a very big human hug.