COVID Jabs - Were We Protected or Controlled?

Did the COVID pandemic protect society—or expose just how quickly fear, pressure and distrust can divide us?

In this controversial episode of Ella Podcasts, Dr Jonathan and I sat down with Brad Bowyer and Iris Koh to revisit one of the most polarising periods in recent history: COVID, vaccine mandates, medical autonomy, public trust and the psychological impact of being either compliant or resistant.

The conversation brings together sharply different viewpoints. We explore why some people trusted authorities and medical guidance, why others questioned mandates, how families and friendships were fractured, and why so much distrust still remains years later.

Brad and Iris also share their personal experiences of speaking out against vaccine mandates and the social, professional and legal consequences that followed, while Dr Jonathan offers a psychological perspective on fear, conformity, group pressure and why people respond so differently to authority.

Who Is This Video For?

This episode is for anyone still reflecting on COVID, lockdowns, vaccine mandates, medical freedom, public trust and the long-term psychological fallout of the pandemic.

In This Episode

* Why COVID created such intense division
* Vaccine mandates and the debate over medical autonomy
* Fear, conformity and group psychology
* The social cost of questioning the dominant narrative
* Why trust in governments, institutions and medicine was damaged
* The lingering psychological impact of lockdowns and social exclusion
* Whether trust can ever be rebuilt
* What might happen if another pandemic arrives

Key Takeaways

* COVID exposed deep differences in how people respond to fear, uncertainty and authority.
* Social pressure and ostracism had lasting psychological consequences.
* Oversimplified messaging can damage trust, even when the intention is public safety.
* Medical decisions become especially divisive when autonomy and collective responsibility collide.
* Rebuilding trust requires transparency, accountability and space for disagreement.

Conclusion

COVID was not only a health crisis—it became a crisis of trust, identity and social cohesion. Whether you agreed with the mandates or opposed them, the experience changed relationships, institutions and the way many people think about authority forever.

This episode does not ask everyone to agree. It asks whether we can still listen to one another after one of the most divisive periods of our lives.

Keywords: COVID vaccine mandates, medical freedom, vaccine debate, COVID lockdowns, medical autonomy, public trust, pandemic psychology, groupthink, conformity, vaccine hesitancy, COVID trauma, Ella Podcasts

#EllaPodcasts #COVID19 #VaccineMandates #MedicalFreedom #MedicalAutonomy #PublicTrust #Pandemic #MentalHealth #Psychology #FreedomOfChoice

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello, I'm Ella, and this is Ella Podcasts. COVID created huge division and distrust globally. Most people complied with the jab out of fear for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. Those that questioned it and asked for medical autonomy were labelled resistors, troublemakers, and a danger to society. Many people remained traumatised by the pandemic lockdown. Here to discuss this dividing topic are Dr. Jonathan Marshall, a Stanford and Harvard University graduate who is a leading clinical psychologist and a former professor. And we have Brad Boyer, he's a senior robotics operations engineer. His political career was derailed for his vocal stand against the mandated COVID jabs and the loss of medical autonomy. And we have with us today Iris Coe, she's the founder of Healing the Divide, and an author. She's facing scrutiny and multiple lawsuits for her outspoken stance against the mandated COVID jabs. So, Dr. Jonathan, why did the COVID jab ferociously divide people? And why are some people more naturally trusting and compliant than others?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

When we have sort of an uncertainty, all kinds of projections come in from our past, particularly when you have a lot of fear with it. So people who have a tendency to what psychologists call neuroticism and a distrust of authority will tend to be suspicious of any authority figure saying anything such as you should take a dab. Whereas those who tend lower on neuroticism and tend to have had better experiences with authority, it could be I had great experiences from my dad and mom and my teachers, will tend to sort of accept. So you have these fundamental things going on at a psychological level. But I think when it comes to COVID, there was a lot of suspicion because some countries, like Denmark and Israel, were very candid about the medical results, and some countries were saying, just believe us. And nobody wants to be in a position of being told, just believe us, uh, when it comes to something as important as your health and the health of your family.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

And Brad, why were some resistors branded as irresponsible bad citizens and conformists called responsible good citizens?

SPEAKER_03 2:14

You had in uh October 2019, before the thing even happened, you had Event 201 that was like a uh a dry run where you had at the Johns Hopkins Centre, you had the World Economic Forum, you had Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, you had a whole lot of people come in, including um, I believe an ex um vice director of the CIA as part of the group. Why they are brainstorming a health emergency result, I don't know. But basically, what they've done is they've followed effectively a fascist model, similar to what happened uh during the Second World War. You drive one second section of the population against the other section of the population. So anyone who did what they were told, followed along, didn't ask any difficult questions, they were lauded and uh pushed upwards. And anyone who asked a question was not doing what they wanted immediately, were demonised. You were gonna kill grandmother, you were gonna put the children at risk, they're the reason the lockdown has to go on. They had lots and lots of different reasons for people to turn on those that were asking questions. So it was a giant psychological exercise. So it wasn't an accident, it was done deliberately to get the conformist behaviour that they wanted.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

I remember watching you on TV, and you certainly weren't afraid to put your head above the parapet on this subject, and I was thinking, oh my god, Brad's gonna be bumped off. Don't cross any roads, Brad, without looking in every direction. But um, you know, my personal view was you know, people are welcome to jab themselves with whatever they like. I honestly don't care. But from my my perspective, um, and I'm a strict vegetarian, so for me, it was they wouldn't tell me what the ingredients were. In most vaccines, they're not suitable for vegetarians. Um, I'm also very anti-abortion, and and they use apparently abortive fetuses as a carrier. So for me, just from you know, all my beliefs, it didn't sit well to be told, well, your beliefs of the last 40 years don't matter, and and you have to comply. So, you know, I was coming from that angle. Um, but but I didn't at the time I thought, is he brave or stupid?

SPEAKER_03 4:38

A bit of both, probably.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

But you're still here, you're still standing. So that's good news. Um, so sharing personal experiences now of the COVID division and how people treated you during this time. Let's start with Iris. Because you're definitely a controversial figure now.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Um, yes. Well, I lost I have two lives, one before COVID, one after. Have a new set of friends and people who don't talk to me anymore. And of course, I'm also facing a lot of uh pressure currently, um, criminal trials and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

So even with all the all the information that Robert F. Kennedy is coming out within the US, which actually, you know, the mall is coming out, it's actually supporting the fact that the mRNA uh allegedly is is causing a lot of health ins issues and and the US government are now releasing this information. So even with all that going on, you're still facing these lawsuits?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yes. Well, I have uh 14 criminal charges, you know, initiated against me. Um defending myself in court. And uh so but I I would say that it was I mean during that time it was pretty extreme. We were kicked out of restaurants, churches, and we couldn't basically to participate in society we had to comply.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

And it was really uh I mean to me it was not just a matter of compliance, but life and death. That's the reason why I did what I did. I mean I have uh I I wish things were a bit different, the way that they could have treated me, but this is what happened.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I think next time they should just say, look, anyone who doesn't want to comply, here's a plane going to Florida or Texas and go be with with your own kind. But uh unfortunately we didn't know that then.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Well they couldn't, you know. They uh they have to um appear to be democratic, they have to appear to be doing it for everyone's good. They can't openly, although they were getting close when you got to that point where they started to talk about should they put the unvaccinated in camp, should they isolate them? Well, we know someone with a little mustache that uh did that to people because they didn't comply. Um they were going down that route and they got close, but it did get uh shut down because there were such disparities around the world in how it was done. It was very clear in some countries they weren't taking their jab, they weren't uh distancing, they weren't wearing masks, and they had no problems. So they could maintain it. Yeah, Sweden was one where they only focused on the areas where people were at risk, so in the old folks' homes, um, and others, I mean you look at the African countries, less than 1% vaccinated and some none. So it was very, very different across the world. So they couldn't have a consistent story that everyone would believe in, and eventually, fortunately, because of the internet, the pressure against it stopped them carrying on.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

And I remember you you got into severe trouble for likening it to Nazi Germany at the time. But someone, I mean, I kept my head well below the parapet, you know, but I felt completely segregated, looked very much down on. I had friends who who said I was being irresponsible, I was murdering their children, um, totally shunned by society. As you said, Iris, you weren't allowed to go anywhere. So your whole life crumbles and you you end up being housebound and completely ostracised from the rest of society. And it was the most horrendous situation psychologically to feel that and to realise how easily people can turn on other people, you know, neighbours grassing up neighbours. Um, it was shocking stuff, and and I felt like you were you were right, but uh oh, you've got you got into so much trouble for that comment, didn't you?

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Yes, I mean I had obviously the attacked in the media as well as in social media. Um I had to uh shorten my my political career, leave the party to protect it. Um I mean there were death threats, there were things about we should be thrown out of the country. Others um wanted to uh intern us. I mean there was a whole mixture, uh lots of hatred, some shouting on the street occasionally, uh, not too much of that though, because um if they were anywhere near me, they realized very quickly that isn't a good choice. If they want to uh affect their health, stand in my face and call me something, but they are cowards as well. So uh I mean that's the thing you you find is that these people are not um strong people with opinions, they are weak people being driven. Um but I do feel sorry for them. I mean, they are they're not bad people, most of them, they're just they they fell for the story, they genuinely believed a lot of this stuff. It wasn't like they suddenly, it's like if you go back to that Nazi Germany period and you talk to Germans now or that were alive then, they didn't know. I mean, later on they did, but at the start, they didn't know what they were doing. They were following along, they were believing what they were told. A lot of the people that went along with it, I believe, were just it was either fear, conformism, the psychological things uh that you were saying just now, that that's in their nature to believe and to trust and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Um and I actually realized during this time, I or I didn't realize what a strong person I am because to withstand it, it was the biggest test of all. And I had friends who kind of you know gave up and complied along the way because it was all too much pressure and it was, you know, they felt so under the spotlight. But for those people who who did say, look, I believe in my medical autonomy and my right to that, it was incredible pressure. Yeah, yeah. So, Jonathan, what are the lingering psychological effects from the pandemic?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I think people are jittery around uh medical issues. So, for example, there was a uh a ship recently that had some cases of the hunter virus, and it was you know, a couple of people died. There was no suggestion of human-to-human transmission. But immediately all around the world, there was a concern of another pandemic. Uh, and and experts all around the world getting tired saying this is not another COVID. But we're so anxious about this sort of thing now. So I think there's a there's there's that uh impact. There's also there have been families that have been disrupted. How come you didn't take the vaccine? How come you did take the vaccine? Why did you put pressure on me? And so I think these are some of the lingering effects from that COVID period.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

And some people never took their masks off. Um I had colleagues at work who wore their masks all the time, um, and that just became part of their everyday lives.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yes, for for long after everybody else put their masks away, they're still wearing.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

I haven't seen that recently though, have you?

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah. But it's been slowly going down, but I'd say at least 10% of the people still 10%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

I think it's still quite high. So we were told to follow the science, but the US Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., is now calling a COVID jab the deadliest vaccine ever made. He's put the spotlight on the use of mRNA technology. How does it make you feel seeing this U-turn opinion from a prominent US Secretary, Iris?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Well, I feel relieved, vindicated, and to me, I was like, uh, well, but the but the thing is that although he is one prominent person who has said that, but prominent people around the world in government haven't even apologized, haven't even said the truth about what it is. The US government of Friously now is is saying uh that you know the CIA whistleblower who came on is saying that um it was a bioweapon and that it was they already knew that it wasn't safe, yet it was rolled out and everybody was still the safe and effective narrative. To me, that was the biggest lies. There were two lies. And uh even though there is like you know, he has publicly said that, but unfortunately, the majority of the narrative is that is that it is they haven't acknowledged what has happened. They didn't say that, you know, we made a mistake, we shouldn't have forced people, they haven't said any of those things. So to me, we are st um this is not over.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

And Brad, we're seeing a rise in COVID jab claims or in COVID jab injury claims in the US. According to the latest data coming out of the US, what are the most commonly reported side effects, injuries, and causes of death?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Um well, there's reported and acknowledged, uh, that's one thing. Uh and when you mention claims, it's which ones actually get through because it's less than 1%. Uh, because alluding to what Iris just said, the institutions are obviously highly resistant because if they admit responsibility, then they have to bear responsibility, and that's one thing they don't want to do. Um, but I mean you've got uh the things that most people know about, they even were forced to talk about at the time, which was myocarditis, but they try and say, you know, minimal, very rare. But we've already seen child doctors talking about how many cases they see, and it's very rare to even occur in a child, so that immediately should be red flags. Um, you have all sorts of circulatory issues, blood clotting issues. Some of those are behind some of the uh died suddenly cases where people are just collapsing. Um you have the accelerated turbo cancers that are coming out. One big one that's now starting to feed into uh the world population is sterilization. Uh, you have sterilization both of men and women occurring. So your childbirth rates are going down, uh, children lost uh during pregnancy, rates are going up. All of these things.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

So we'll keep we can we we're still being told the death rate hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

It's changed massively. I mean, even in 2024, Japan looked at their figures compared to their pre-COVID numbers, and it was like 17.9% excess deaths already. Uh, and those numbers are growing around the world, and there is a parallel between the uh vaccination rate in a country and the excess death rate. The only positive thing when we talk about the injuries and the deaths and the rising death rates is that from other studies they're starting to trace the injuries to certain batches. Uh, and I believe, I mean, this is my personal belief, but I believe it's because there is no logistical way they could have created that many doses that quickly. So, I mean, they had to get a couple of billion doses out across the planet. There's no manufacturing facility for that. Even if they were doing it in advance, it would take such a long time. The way our mRNA vaccines are, they need to be transported very carefully. So I believe a large proportion of what people got was basically saline solution or ordinary flu vaccines but with a COVID label on it. So it was almost like a game of Russian roulette. Because what you're also finding is the people who are jabbed the most are the ones who are starting to have those issues. So it's a case of how many times do you play chemical Russian roulette and did you win or lose? And if you got one of the wrong batches, that's where you had these people sometimes dying suddenly when they were vaccinated and now are getting the impacts afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

I think many of us know people, you know, who's got you know a spouse or a parent who just dropped dead and they were still young and healthy, and uh there's a lot of unexplained dropping dead. I mean, I I've personally picked out a nice bungalow I'm planning to take over once uh we've we've some seen some more of this. A nice big garden for my dog. So yeah, I'm just I'm waiting for our comeback.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

In the last two weeks, uh my colleague that sits opposite me in the office, he's had two friends, one 48, and I think the other one's 52, just died suddenly. And they're quite fit guys working in the offshore industry, and then they've suddenly died, and they don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

I've heard of teachers and nurses and people in professions that really had no choice but to have it, and you know, there have been brain tumours and aneurysms and all sorts of instantly kill people, but um whether it will all come out in a wash is another question. How does mass formation impact psychological functioning?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

So I think you're asking, like, how how does the group change the individual's way of thinking? I think we tend to comply with group pressure very quickly. And if you trust the group, if you trust groups generally, uh and if you don't, well, all of a sudden you're on your own, so you're scared. So it's very easy to either comply or or just believe in what the group has to say, because it's just a lot safer for the individual. Nobody wants to be ostracized from their tribe.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, and that's a that's something I used to question myself. It's like Ella, why do you want to put yourself in the line of fire? And when you've got all this pressure from every angle, everyone telling you to do it, and that you're being stupid and irresponsible and you're killing their children. I mean, it it was uh, you know, I did question why I am taking this stance because it would be so much easier just to go along with it. What do you think, Iris?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Well, I think the important thing is that we all know what the truth is, you know, being true to ourselves, being being committed to what rigorous scientific study ought to be. And a small percentage of people would not just go along for whatever reasons. I for one didn't go along, even though it I made huge sacrifices. But I think it's important that humanity have people who do not just go along despite the prayer the prayer prayer pressure, because some things should withstand the test of time. And uh and of course, you know, looking back, we know that it was one of the biggest psychological operations of all time, the way I see it, the the narratives and so forth. But um if humanity were to win, then we need people who trust themselves and who trust um that we always need both sides. Um we need people to uh question the narratives and not just blindly believe or accept that it is safe and effective just because some authority says that. You know, at the end of the day, all of us have our own way of thinking, our own judgment. And uh as an authentic sovereign being, we should always uh exercise our own judgment and and uh you know stick to what we know.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

So Jonathan, obviously there was a lot of you know, governments saying follow the science, trust the doctors, and I know you're from a family with lots of doctors in it, and you know, for a lot of people what the doctor tells you is gospel. Um so you know what do you feel about kind of that level of medical science versus people with gut instincts? There's something amiss here.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

I personally feel very grateful to the medical science. Um I think any any new any new procedure or any procedure has a risk with it. Um and from where I'm at, like I'm thinking I'm very grateful for the mRNA vaccine. I'm very grateful that many people who, as I understand it, probably would have died had they not taken it, didn't die. Um so I feel a lot of gratitude towards medical science. And while I feel a little ambivalent towards how some authority figures oversimplified, and as a result, there's a lack of trust now because I think they they made it too simple. They're saying this is all 100% and perfectly safe. Anyone who said that, it's like, well, that's just not true. I mean, no, no scientist was ever going to tell that.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

No medication is 100% exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

You're always going to have some danger. And I think those who oversimplified lost credibility. And I think that's a shame because now we that credibility.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And even saying things like, you know, if you've if you're with five people, that's fine, but if you're with six people, that's not fine.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, that is done somewhere. I mean, well, I mean, I maybe they just but yes, I think I think in the over simplification we've lost some trust. But overall, I I personally feel grateful.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

And I get that, you know, the majority of people wanted to protect themselves, they wanted to protect their families. And it was such a fast and dramatic thing, COVID. I mean, it literally swept the world within a week. It was terrifying. We were seeing we thought we were seeing a lot of deaths from it. So I can imagine I can understand why people said, give me the you know, the golden ticket, you know, that's gonna get us through this. I, you know, I get that, but for me it was a case of of saying, well, hang on a minute. This is all it's all happening very fast. You've come up with this vaccine extremely quickly. Um, there's no I think normally they have seven years of trials before rolling out. Is that right, Brad?

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Uh it can be a lot more than that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

The other thing they do is that they publish it, and if they have uh issues, they don't release it. Um, because in the early days, I mean I I believed it at the start, then I start to have questions, uh and I talked to uh some doctor friends, uh one of whom is involved in in vaccine development. Uh, and if if they have a death in any of the cohorts, uh certainly if they have two or three, that's it, it's never going to see the day of light. Um, of course, we know they tried to bury the Pfizer data for 75 years, but even back then they already knew that they had far more than two or three deaths, and very quickly as it was rolling out, they were having reactions and deaths, and yet they never stopped it and they never poured it back. Totally contrary to how they would normally roll out a new medication.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And I think the AstraZeneca one had had the worst.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Um, I am not at the top of my head, I can't remember the exact numbers. I know all of the mRNA ones had issues because mRNA is actually not new, they've been developing it for years and testing it in animals, but it was killing all the animals they were trying it on. So this is almost like the first ever human trial, and it was driven out all over the world at the same time. Um, yeah, it didn't didn't make any sense. But I mean, when you talk about uh about trusting, yeah, growing up, I mean, we've all taught to trust, and I've always uh trusted it. I mean, my uh one of my relatives is uh a director of nursing now. She's been involved in it since she was 18. Um so I know someone directly inside the industry who's a totally caring person, doing everything they can to help the people around them. So I don't believe people in the medical industry were deliberately doing anything negative against anyone, uh, and they were trying to do their best. But what you saw, like what I described, happened to me and what happened to Iris, that also happened to people within the medical industry who asked questions. I mean, you had things like that, the Great Barrington Declaration and various other things that happened during this time, where doctors were asking questions and they were saying, actually, yes, we should follow the science, and no medicine is uh effective 100% and it's not been tested enough. They were also ostracized, some of them lost their jobs, some of them were removed their medical licenses. I mean, they were attacked uh as much as anyone else was. So it was a challenge for anyone in the industry to even ask any questions about it as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

And if there's another pandemic, will people comply again or question more? What do you think, Dr. Jonathan?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

I think it will go to some extent on uh how dangerous it is. If you're seeing people dying in front of you, you'll take anything. Doesn't matter what your past experience was. But if there's a lot of uncertainty, then how you interpret the last pandemic, I think, will influence. So someone like me, I might be more inclined to say, yep, I'm happy to stand in line for the next jab. Perhaps other people might go, no, no, no, that's the last thing I want to do.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

And um, final quick round can trust be repaired after such a polarizing event?

SPEAKER_03 26:35

It can, but there's a challenge. Um I mean, on my side, so this should we say if there are two sides, on the side of those who didn't comply, um the resistance. Yeah, the resistance, yes. So, I mean, I I'm uh ready to forgive and forget, and uh to help those who've gone through it, because in my mind, they're victims. Although there were people there who treated me badly, abused me, threatened my family, all of this sort of stuff, they were doing it out of the psychological position they were driven into. Plus, of course, we are getting all these facts out, like you alluded to from Dr. Robert Kennedy. We are seeing the death rates, we're seeing all of these other things. Some of those people will have had a relative who has had a turbo cancer, has died suddenly, and that may be someone that they cajoled into taking the vaccine. So they may also have their own guilts. Um, it's like some of the friends that don't want to see me now that stop seeing me then because oh, you're a danger to my family. Well, they know that's over, but now, of course, then they have to start acknowledging maybe they overreacted, maybe they um were too extreme, and that's another psychological barrier for them.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I never understood that because it's like, well, you've been vaccinated, so aren't you safe? That wasn't that the whole point.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

So I think from the side of those who resisted, it's going to be easier to forgive and forget than for those who are bearing the scars of, shall we say, no one likes to admit they've been fooled, or no one likes to admit they may have done something wrong, especially if it involved harming someone and especially someone they care or love for. There's a lot of psychological challenges that they have to go through. So it's easier to try not to acknowledge it, and the forgiveness and bonding together again include some acknowledgement of what you've done wrong. I don't think it's gonna be that easy for a lot of them to do that, but we can try.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Let's see what happens in the next couple of years. Iris.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Well, can trust be repaired? I think uh it is I I think it's gonna take uh a lot to repair it because trust has to be founded on transparency and accountability, and until the people in charge are willing to be accountable and transparent, especially about the data that is still being hidden from us, exact how many people died after taking as a result of these are all information that we should be getting because they were the ones who wanted everyone to be vaccinated. Right. So to me, actually the answer is that we have a failing system. It is so it is is as if like the whole system is designed in a way has is has failed us. There was very little check and balances across all the agencies, and uh what happened shouldn't have happened in the first place. You know? So for me to repair the trust, um, I think we got to trust ourselves more. We got to trust each other more, and we gotta start to think about new ways of having others, you know, like how we're gonna rebuild the system that is that has lost its um integrity.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

And just watching the mass hysteria was really uh really frightening in itself. Yeah. And again, I was amazed how calm and strong I was during that period of standing by my convictions. There's a lady at my gym, we've been going to the same yoga class for 20 years now, and she's always ill these days, always coughing, sneezing, sniffling. And she said to me the other day, Oh, I've just had my seventh shot. I'm like, haven't you been reading the news on the side effects? She said, Oh, but the doctor said someone my age should take it. And I was like, Oh my god. When we start using your brain, but uh so every week I look at her mat thinking, is she gonna be here? Is that it now? Jonathan. I know you're really uncomfortable with this subject, but I'll get it.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

It's all good. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a I'm not a scientist, I'm not a medical scientist, so I don't know the medicine, but I I know scientists who do know the medicine. And uh I know they were always first in line to get the jabs. Uh and I do some work with uh pharmaceutical executives or I've had some pharmaceutical executive clients, and they also wanted to be first in line to get the jabs. And I figured those are populations that wouldn't stand in line. They're they're in the no more than I am, and so that was also a signal to me that I I didn't feel that the scientists had anything nefarious going on. Oh, the politicians, the business people, I don't know. But I think I I I tend to trust the science as I understand it. And as for Robert Kennedy's comments, um I'm not sure the scientific community is fully aligned with him.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Well, personally, I feel like thank God for Robert Kennedy Jr., because it's high time somebody voiced the other side of the argument and um, you know, really looked at big pharma and the money being made and the lack of cures. So thank you for joining this difficult conversation on Ella Podcasts. COVID was a crisis that exposed how fragile our relationships and beliefs become under immense pressure. For the majority, the COVID jab was seen as protection, survival, and hope. For the resistors, the mandates felt like enforced segregation, coercion, the loss of basic human rights and medical freedom. For those now suffering from COVID jab side effects and injuries, the trauma continues. And for those who've had their lives cut short, justice needs to be served. If you want to suggest a topic for our next episode, please join our Facebook group at Ella Podcasts and message us. Please subscribe, rate, and share this podcast, sending you a big healthy hug.