High Achievement Without Burnout: (Why Success Starts to Feel Like Self-Destruction) - Erika Coleman (Guest)

What happens when “giving your all” quietly becomes the only way you know how to live?

In this episode of Hustle Rebels, Renae sits down with Erika Coleman — speaker, consultant, and recovering overachiever — to talk about what she calls “even achieving”: pursuing big goals without burning everything down in the process.

Erika founded a million-dollar virtual training company, then hit clinical burnout while “doing everything right.” That crash led her to study stress, motivation, and performance at Harvard, where she realized something most high performers never hear clearly:

You don’t have to give your all to give your best.

Together, Renae and Erika dig into why so many of us live in permanent championship mode — treating every email, meeting, and shift like overtime in the playoffs — and what that does to your nervous system, identity, and long-term performance.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• How achievement, effort, and identity get tangled for overachievers
• How “leave it all on the field” thinking backfires in real life (and in high-risk jobs)
• Why “just do less” and “just rest” don’t work for driven people whose safety is tied to performance
• Erika’s idea of even achieving and what sustainable momentum actually looks like
• Two simple questions to check your pace and presence before burnout blindsides you
• How to talk about boundaries with leaders and systems that still reward overextension
• Why hobbies, celebration, and wrapping up seasons intentionally are non-negotiable for long-term success

If you’ve built your reputation on being the reliable one, the fixer, the person who always says yes and outworks everyone, this conversation will give you language, frameworks, and permission to stay ambitious — without sacrificing your body, relationships, or sense of self to hustle culture. 

Want to connect with Erika? Here's how:

Website: https://www.erikacolemanspeaks.com/

Free team assessment: https://balanceyourteam.scoreapp.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-coleman-1591b435/

To watch Erika's TEDx Talk, search: How to reduce stress without sacrificing success | Erika Coleman | TEDxOneonta

Transcript

Busyness Versus Greatness

SPEAKER_00 0:00

One of the biggest detriments to really great achievements is busyness. That I can be so busy doing a million different things that I don't actually ever accomplish anything great. And so for me, it was this understanding of how do I stop busyness? Because for me, that was effort. Effort is busyness. As long as I'm busy, things will get done. And learning how to say, hmm, how do I embrace a more natural pace? And I came from Cal Newport. How can I embrace a natural pace of things? So that I am making progress. I am doing things, but I'm intentional about what I'm doing. And that I know it's going to lead to something great, not just a lot of something.

Show Setup And Theme

SPEAKER_02 0:45

This is Hustle Rebels, a podcast for people who know how to grind but are starting to question the cost. I'm Renee. And here we talk about success, burnout, and nervous system regulation without glorifying exhaustion or sacrificing your health, relationships, or your sense of self. And without pretending ambition is the problem. Let's get into it.

Introducing Erica And Her Thesis

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Welcome back, everyone. I'm Renee, the founder of Wayward Wellness Coaching, and today I'm sitting down with Erica Coleman. Erica is a speaker, consultant, and recovering overachiever. She believes most successful people are getting accomplishment wrong. Erica also founded a million-dollar virtual training company that serviced some of the top organizations in the world. Her curiosity about stress, motivation, and well-being led her to a master's degree in industrial organizational psychology from Harvard University. Erica imagines a world where no one needs to choose between achieving their goals and building a life worth living. In this conversation, we get into what happens when effort quietly becomes identity, why so many high performers live in permanent championship mode, and Erica's concept of even achieving, going after big goals without burning their whole life down in the process. So by the end of this episode, you're going to understand why you don't actually have to give your all in order to give your best. You'll see how good traits like dedication and drive can actually become harmful when they're pushed too far. You'll also hear how Erica hit clinical burnout while doing everything right and what actually changed her approach. You'll also learn two simple questions to check your own pace and presence before burnout blindsides you. And you'll get language that you can use to set boundaries inside systems that still reward overextension. So if you've built your own worth on being the reliable one, the

Why Achievement Became Identity

SPEAKER_02 2:57

fixer, and the one who always pushes through, this episode is going to hit close to home. I know it did for myself, but in a really useful way. So let's hop into the conversation with Erica. Welcome back to Hustle Rebels, the show for people who know how to work hard but are starting to question the cost. Today's conversation is actually one I truly have been looking forward to because it hits a lot of tension points that I see constantly. High achievement on the outside, and the nervous system is quietly paying the price on the inside. My guest today is Erica Coleman, speaker consultant, and self-described recovering overachiever like many of us. Erica built a million-dollar virtual training company, studied industrial organizational psychology at Harvard, and now focuses on helping people pursue excellence without burning down their health, relationships, or sanity in the process. Erica doesn't argue that ambition is the problem. She questions the math we were taught about success. The idea that we just have to give enough, push enough, and sacrifice enough, and then everything will work out. So today we're talking about what actually breaks when hustle becomes the strategy, what even achieving really means, and how to set boundaries inside systems that still reward overextension. So, Eric, I'm really glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I'm really happy to be here. This could be fun.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Right. And before we jump into these big ideas, where are you coming from virtually? And where are you actually right now in your own relationship with achievement?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh, great questions. I am virtually joining from the greater Salt Lake City area out in Utah. Beautiful mountains. If you ever want to hike, come on over. I'll show you some great places to see waterfalls and Rocky Mountains. It's gorgeous. In terms of my relationship with achievement, oh, I mean it's gonna be a lifelong one. It's where I'm learning to trust in sustainable momentum so that I keep moving forward, keep doing good things that I'm proud of, but not so much the frenzy and the spinning that I used to always do, thinking that I had to always be moving in order to achieve the things I wanted to achieve.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

And I know that we have had a conversation in the past about your background, and I really can't wait to have you dive into that and especially just a lot of the things that you have overcome. So you describe yourself as a recovering overachiever. What did achievement used to give you that you didn't realize that you were relying on?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Well, in general, I love doing things well, like just in general. And the more I've studied this concept of achievement from a scientific perspective, I've learned there's different reasons that we achieve. And I am one of the people that I get so much satisfaction out of doing something hard and doing it well. And that it can be one of its own reasons for achieving. Some people do it because they want to be the best in the room, the best they have. Others will do it because they simply don't want to fail. And some people will achieve a lot because they don't want to be a leech, right? I will achieve because I don't want anyone to be mad at me. I'm proving I am a contributing member of society, kind of a thing. So for me, I really love doing things well. And so sometimes that allure of that satisfaction point, it doesn't last very long. And so it'd be like, yep, did it. Okay, what's the next thing? Where's my next big dopamine hit? Dopamine hit. Oh, 100% a dopamine hit. And the

When Good Traits Go Too Far

SPEAKER_00 6:24

thing is, is it's also built to be rewarded in a lot of ways when you achieve things well. And it looks good and it feels fun, but without learning how to embrace the pace of achieving things well sustainably, then it's just always, okay, what's the next thing? Okay, what's the next thing? In fact, you're not even done with the first thing before people asking, well, what are you gonna do next? Or what are you gonna do with this? Right. And so it becomes this now, not just an achievement, but I need to prove I'm competent and I'm capable and that I can be consistent in who I've always been and what I always want to be and I'm getting things done. And it just snowballs over and over and over to that point of becoming where I would say overachieving was always this, okay. In order to be achieving it all, I need to be always giving everything that I have every single day. And that's dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Exactly. And when you're talking about all those different types of achievers, right? In yours specifically, where do you think that might have stemmed from?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Uh, I mean, part of it is personality. We could go into the fact that I do genuinely have a personality that loves that. Part of it, of course, is socialization with family members. I am a lot of my family high achieving, but not from the pressure of you have to be perfect, you have to be great. It came from this very creative, wonderful space. My dad is an educator, my mom is an educator. We very much grew up like, let's learn how to explore and have fun and play. And then when we threw that into the systems that rewarded achievement, then it became not just can I do the grade well, but what is the best, most exciting, most fun way to get that done well? And that became its own sustainable momentum for my meaning and purpose. So one of the big things is I build meaning and purpose around what I do in order to achieve the biggest things that I want. And as long as that is held in a sustainable way, it's a wonderful thing. But when everything becomes about meaning and purpose for you, it can go too far. And that was one of the things we had to like sit with, like, oh, okay, this is a genuinely good thing to have. If I push it too far, does it remain a good thing to have? And that is actually something I learned when I was studying my stress class that was where like, oh, this is where I get it wrong. Because with stress, it's not just about overcoming stress or learning how to handle stress better or doing it better. It also became understanding that really good virtues, when pushed too far, at best will give you diminishing returns on that virtue. And at worst, those good things can actually become harmful to you and start sending you back to that stressful spot in this really dangerous cycle. So it's been interesting to say, okay, I can appreciate the good things that came from where I stemmed in terms of my love of achievement, the organizations that have helped me achieve, and hold in my head and my heart the fact that, and I could also push it too far and make it dangerous, or they could pressure me too far to make it dangerous. So it's finding that really unique balance between the

The Year Everything Broke

SPEAKER_00 9:24

two.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, I think about when I went to college. So I also am a musician along with a few other things. And um, when I initially went to college, I had a lot of friends that pursued music. And a lot of the music aspect in that college was things that you had to do for zero credits. And a lot of people were like, Why don't you go to music for college? But I'm like, Because I see the things that they are required to do and what they started as a freshman with a love for music, and they graduate as a senior with whatever their degree might be. They hate music because they are forced into all of these things that they have to do for zero credits, but it's just required. And it's just your love for something pushed to the boundary can easily become something that you despise. But speaking of meeting and purpose, I, if you feel comfortable, would love to hear your story of how you even got into all of this.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, happy to. So, as you mentioned, yes, in a lot of ways, I kind of thought life was just a simple math problem of if you give your best, then it works out. And the way I interpreted that was give everything that you possibly can give, and then it'll either A work out how you wanted it to, or at least if it doesn't, you can be like, but I I tried, so it's not meant to be. So every day it'd be this kind of give more, give more. And for a long time, that served me very, very well. Like I did very well in school. Uh, I was actually the valedictorian of my undergraduate program. I did very, very well in business. When I went into business, I was like the youngest XYZ, and then I was top employee of this global thing, blah, blah. And then when that system wasn't working how I wanted, I started my own business and grew it really fast. So my brain was like, Yeah, it's just math. It's why aren't you working? People who were struggling with it. You're not giving enough. It was not a very nice frame. Um but with my business, it was a 2022. And because I did virtual training, I knew no matter what, the world's opening up, demand is gonna go down, people are start training in person again. And so I was like, okay, we're gonna put more grit into it. This is our chance to pivot and have fun and learn these new things using that creative mindset that I have. I'm like, every problem just needs a creative approach. That's how I was thinking about it. And in March of that year, I got a phone call that I'll never forget. It's one you don't ever want to get. It was your mom's in the hospital. And I went, What? My mom's the luckiest person alive. Like, she's the person that when you entered Raffles, always somehow won the grand prize. So, what? She's in the hospital. And we found out she had terminal brain cancer, and at most had 18 months left to live. And so as I sat with my family members trying to figure out how do you accept this, we did what we always do, which is lean in harder. So it became okay, give everything that you possibly can at business to because I had hired a lot of friends and family members. So I was like, I can't let them down. I can't let them down. We've got to pivot, we've got to figure out how to change these things, we've got to have extra meetings and more consultants and more trade shows, all these things. And then with my mom, it became don't waste a single minute left with mom. So drive her to her appointments and make sure that her medicine is not only color-coded, but have happy messages within it. And well, it's set up all these different big memory events so that we'll remember forever. And I got stuck in this paradox of I am so proud of what I did that year. And it didn't save anything. My mom did pass away. And honestly, the night before she went on hospice, I got an email that we'd been waiting for as a business.

Clinical Burnout And Harvard Pivot

SPEAKER_00 13:10

It was a sales proposal. This was either gonna save the business and we're gonna be fine, or if it doesn't come through, we're done. And it came through, denied. We're not even gonna use a vendor at all. And it was this moment of I actually did everything on my to-do list for the first time in my life. Every wish, every big option. I gave my all. It didn't save them. I felt guilty because I also felt relief because I was so tired. And I remember after I sent that last invoice, I finally sat down because I finally gave my permission to sit down. Before that, you're not sitting, right? You sleep, you get up, and you move, you know. You're caffeinating at every cent chance that you get. I finally sat down because there was nothing left to do. And then I couldn't get back up. Like physically, I couldn't stand. And as an overachiever, I was still like, it'll be fine. I just need 15 minutes. I'll be fine. It's gonna be fine. 15 minutes passes, I'm not fine. Still trying to tell myself I'm fine. And then my then five-year-old daughter came into my office. She had a picture she had colored that she was so proud of. And I was too tired to smile. And that's when I finally went, I'm not fine. This isn't fine, this isn't okay. And eventually started gaining strength back, saw a therapist, thank heavens, who was helping me diagnose me with clinical burnout because I was like, Well, duh, everyone's burnt out. What does this mean? She's like, No, no, no, no. This is a big deal. Your body has officially got your attention. You have ignored it long enough. It's not gonna let you anymore. But at that point, I was still doing what every overachiever still does, which is well, how do I move forward? Where do I go from here? What's the next step? And that's when I applied to Harvard. Deep throws of burnout. And I was like, I can't go backwards.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I don't want to go to a cubicle.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

I'm going to Harvard. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

And I got in, which was exciting. And that first semester was really rough.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Thank heavens for a good therapist who, you know, helped me survive it. But I said to myself, I was like, you know what? Obviously, well equated with stress. I started going gray at 19. Like, I know what stress feels like, but I didn't understand it. I didn't understand how I was reacting with it, how I was using it poorly or well. And so I said, when I'm at Harvard, if I couldn't figure this out, if I did everything right during that 14 months with my mom and my business, and yet my reward was so exhausted that I couldn't function. So what did I do wrong? Like that's the other thing. As an overachiever, I'm like, show me the grade. Where did I miss my points?

unknown 15:39

Like, where

You Don’t Need To Give Your All

unknown 15:40

did I go wrong?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And I studied it a lot and I learned a lot. I chose all my focuses around stress, motivation, well-being, performance management. I said, let's figure out what I did wrong. And that sort of thing slowly, as I studied it and said, okay, it's a homework assignment. I need to actually sit down and learn how to take care of myself better. I started to change. And I thought, of course, all right, well, the achievements are gonna go down. So I thought I was like, that's what everyone tells you. Take care of yourself and what's gonna happen. I'm not gonna reach those same achievements I was reaching before. Okay, fine. I got it. Check the box, I did it, kind of a thing. That's how I settled into it. And they didn't stop. They didn't stop. I graduated from Harvard on the dean's list, and for the first time, it came as not a I made it, I'm at finals, I'm done. I'm so tired, I never want to think of it again. And it was like, my finals done. What do I do now? I actually enjoyed graduation because I wasn't tired. I was like, this is really fun.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Well, everyone's staring at you, being like, What?

SPEAKER_00 16:43

I know because she's done. I was like, that was great. And then I gave a TED talk. Like I worked through. I'm like, the achievements didn't stop. So I had to sit and go, okay, my form of measuring what I thought was getting me to achievement was a bad measurement. It was a bad measurement, and it was effort. It's like, okay, so effort doesn't always equate achievement. What does? That's what really became the groundwork for let's figure out what even achieving is. I don't want to be an underachiever. Never gonna happen. Nope. That is not something that will ever be interesting to me. And overachieving obviously has been dangerous. So, what is even achieving? Can I still

Championship Mode Vs Daily Life

SPEAKER_00 17:22

reach for the moon and the stars without it costing me my health, without it costing me my relationships, and without it being something where I'm moving around all the time that nobody can actually sit near me because I'm too busy?

SPEAKER_02 17:33

What does it look like? Yeah, and that's I feel like the age-old question for everyone that's an overachiever, because we have been sold this idea that the more output you give, the more that you're gonna receive. But as we all know, your body can't withstand that. I mean, at some point you might mentally think that you can keep pushing through, but you know, we are all pretty much a testament that at one point your body's just gonna give out. So I would love to know more about this, even achieving. And I'm sure everyone listening would also love to know more.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

So love to share it. That's what I'm here for. I love the way you said that too, because when I teach keynotes and stuff, I often say, please don't forget, you are the most important resource for getting things done. Exactly. Let's let's actually use ourselves well here. Uh, when what's interesting with even achieving is that when we're going after these big, wonderful things that we're excited about, we get stressed out. And so people tend to give us advice because it's usually pretty obvious when we're stressed out. And the advice that we get usually falls into two buckets. Bucket one is some version of, well, just do less, like take a break, go take a vacation, take a nap, delegate more. And to me, because I cared, like how it's so rooted in meaning and purpose. If you told me that for any of the things I was working on, all I heard was instead of do less, I was told care less. I was like, okay, obviously you don't care. So I'll just take even more on and care for both of us. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Or the other type of advice, like if I actually owned, okay, I need to Google this. My stress is too high. How do I handle my stress? And I Google it, then all that's gonna come up is whatever the latest trend on Instagram and TikTok is for well-being right now. So I'm like, oh, red light therapy mask. Apparently, that's gonna solve all my stress.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Or somebody's putting band-aids on the problem and not actually helping the issue.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

If you think about it, it also is like saying, Okay, stressed out person, you just have to do some more.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Right. It's just putting more on your plate and it's like it's time to just start there with a red light mask on your face, you know. Like, I don't have to make that shit.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Can I do email while I have the red light light? You're trying to also maximize your time instead of how can I make this more efficient? Right. Exactly. Exactly. What is the most efficient way for me to recover from my stress? I know chat GPT, how can I efficiently put this on my face and do that? Right, it's so it's impossible. Like you're stuck with this. Okay, well, then obviously I'm just stressed means I'm a high achiever. Like, that's when you start saying, Okay, that is now proof that I do lots of big important things all the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Not true. Like, that is not how it needs to be. And so when I was at Harvard, I was kind of being like this, but what is the answer? What

Boundaries Inside Tough Systems

SPEAKER_00 20:24

is left? And the most important thing that I learned while I was there is that you don't have to give your all in order to give your best. And it was like, oh, what does that actually look like? And the way I love to describe this is if you ever had a coach or yeah, at some like if you played school sports and you had a coach who was like, just leave it all on the court or leave it all on the field. I did theater, so mine was leave it all on the stage. And at that time, sure, I'm in high school, I have four plays. That's fine, which is good because by closing night, I'd ripped my throat up so badly I'd laryngitis for a month and a half, right? Like, so I'm like, sure, I'll leave it all on the stage for that. But if I'm on Broadway, that doesn't work. If I'm in the NBA, that doesn't work. I actually learned from the sports psychologist of the Boston Celtics that if you're in the NBA, you can't leave it all in the court because you have multiple games a week. You have to be able to pick yourself back up and go again and go again and go again. And too often we treat all the little things in our lives like it's the championship game when it's it's a regular season game. So it became this idea of okay, where can I give my best without it meaning my all? And the more I studied this with psychology, I also learned that when we are giving our all, we're often robbing ourselves of our ability to give our best because of what is happening physiologically. Like if I'm throwing myself into championship mode, I'm probably in a fight flight stage, which means the limbic stage. Systems in charge, which means it's flooding my body with these different hormones. That if there's a saber-toothed tiger chasing me, I want those hormones then. They feel good, they make me feel powerful. I can do lots of amazing things. If it's just get this email in before end of the day, those things are not going to be as helpful. And if they stay in your system too long, that's the problem, is that they start to erode at your system. They start overdriving. And that's where you get all of that, those side effects that we know about stress, why stress is bad. It happens because we are flaring up this intensity too often that our body can't flush it out, and now it's starting to fight against us. So it's this okay, is this a championship game? Is it really? Because if it's not, perhaps we need to find a different measurement for how I'm going to do this well.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yeah. And a lot of it is a practice, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Oh hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

And you talk about these championship games, and you know, you have to you can't leave it all in the field. It's the same thing like working out. Like I used to be heavily into resistance training. Ironically, before getting injured and then all these other surgeries I had to have, it's quite similar to just the way our muscles work. If you continue to overextend yourself or overstress your muscles, then it's going to lead to the injuries. But as a firefighter, we were trained that we had to act like athletes because if at any point we did have a structure fire, you would, if you had the mentality that you had to leave it all on the field or leave it all when you were doing the structure fire, i.e. going in and taking your 30-minute bottle, using it to the very last breath, you could potentially die. Like you could get injured, you could use it too quickly. There's just so many factors that are stupid. You're just being stupid at that point, you know. But if you're working out consistently, you're rebuilding your muscles, you're allowing your body to restore, but ironically, at the same time, you're in a system that's not teaching you that. You know, like in your mind, you're being told intellectually

Influence, Control, And Acceptance

SPEAKER_02 24:09

and conceptually, act like your body is a professional athlete and you need rest and you need restoration. Yet in the system, it's forcing you to not sleep and not have rest and you know, sacrifice yourself. So, with all that said, how do you even have boundaries without becoming the problem employee or a difficult leader? Because we have these concepts and the even achieving, but then you go and try to apply that. For example, like I had a chief, a fire chief, that was like, you didn't want to take that overtime because you probably just worked a really shitty 24-hour shift and you had all these things planned. And he would guilt trip you into taking that extra overtime, even though you knew you were exhausted, you knew you couldn't move your plans around, and then you just ended up taking it anyway. So even though it wasn't necessary, you were that one person that was there in front of him. So, how do you have these boundaries for any type of person in any profession?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah, well, big question, first off. Like, let's just qualify that no matter what, the systems we work within will slowly change. So there isn't any quick fix, there isn't any quick big thing if it truly is going to be the changes that we need. This comes from an organizational psychology perspective, where it's like, okay, every organization has strengths and every organization has weaknesses. Couple of things to tackle with that. First and foremost, our ability to handle stress. I love that you brought up the workout thing, because it is like a muscle. And the more that you experience stress and you will build resistance that way if you are doing it in a healthy way. So there's two sides of that. One, you're gonna get stronger as long as you don't go overdoing the stress to the point of breaking and you are able to have rests between sets. But the other part of that is if like, for instance, my husband loves to work out and his bench press max is 475

Culture, Work Hours, And Pace

SPEAKER_00 26:08

pounds. Dang. He's a big dude, right? Okay, mine is probably like maybe 75 pounds on a good day. So it's not gonna be, but if I go in and I'm like, I want to push up this weight, and he's looking at me, he's like, Well, you're not very strong. Push harder. He has a skewed perspective than my own because again, our ability to handle stress is going to be individualized. He doesn't understand what my stress level is. I don't understand his stress levels because it is internal kind of a thing. So there's a couple things with that. That means one, since you're the only one who knows your stress, you also are the only one who can advocate for it. So you do have to start saying, okay, where is my breaking points? Where are those boundaries? Where can I do this? But also to be heard by somebody else, we also have to remember the pressures that are on them are about performance. So if I come in here and like care about my well-being, they're gonna go, why? Why should I? So we have to frame it in terms of performance. Why should you care about my well-being? I love supporting this organization and I want to support it long term. I love doing things well, I love getting things done well, and I want to do it long term. In order for that to happen, though, I need us to be able to, and then that's when you can lay out these types of things. So you want to have those moments where we build this mutual purpose around performance. Because as soon as we come in and say, this is too hard for me, it's too much, they will. They'll see you as the problem person. They'll be like, oh, well, you're not, you're the leech, which if to me, I'm like, I'm never a leech.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Don't make me the leech. I will do anything not to be the leech. Like trigger word, don't tell me that. I'm the contributor.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Right. So think of it in terms of contribution. How would this type of rest contribute better to the well-being of the entire organization? How does it contribute to us all performing better? And then you can do some role valuation and role creation, which is a technique from negotiation strategies where I say, you, as my leader,

Slow Productivity And Natural Pace

SPEAKER_00 28:11

as my manager, I bet there's a lot of pressure on you for us to perform well. We want to do that with you. We want to do that with you. How do we do it? How do we do it sustainably? And start this very collaborative, cooperative approach with them. Because usually guilt tripping comes from a place of resentment. So, what means do they have that aren't being met? What are the pressures that they're facing that aren't being met? If we're gonna change systems, there won't be any one person. It has to be these tough conversations that are held from these very mutually grounded spots with each other. But either way, you get to kind of say, look, I'm good at what I do. I want to keep being good at what I do. Wouldn't you like that too? Here's how we do it. And the thing is, is there's some people that will never see that. And for me, I'd rather know that sooner than later. That's why I have left certain organizations that I have left because it was like, here's what I can offer. And they're like, oh, well, you're not really gonna want that or need that here. I was like, thank you for letting me know. I'll go do my own thing. Like made that easy for me, right? So it is this kind of a thing of it always will be nuanced, it will always be tricky. You do have to stand up for yourself, but we don't ever exist by ourselves. There's this peace that happens in relation to others. And so the more that we can also say, I'd love to help advocate for your health too. Because when we do, that's when systems change. That's when sustainability hits. That's when we keep hitting those high marks without it costing us long nights, late weekends, no sleep, no breaks, kind of a thing. But it does take a shift.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

I love the idea of the negotiation as well and learning communication styles because I feel like that is a huge thing that's missing in a lot of this. And especially in, I don't want to say necessarily generation that's coming

Alienation, Identity, And Hobbies

SPEAKER_02 30:08

up, but just the idea of communication in general, I feel like is lost in a lot of the society. I feel like we have a lot of heightened emotion around a lot of certain things. And um, while I find a lot of value in putting ourselves first, I feel like when we do try to put ourselves first, like what you were saying, we lose the aspect of reminding ourselves the person we're talking to is also another person going through whatever they are going through as well. So they might have something that they're dealing with. And um, especially in the upper management, that comes with its own stress. And I think that that's something we also always forget as employees that might be working under them, you know. So they have their own things that they have to hit in their own, whatever it might be in the specific professions. So with that said, do you think that there are some systems that might be incompatible with human regulation, no matter how skilled you might be?

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Oh, for sure. 100%. Especially if we have a hustle mindset, especially if we are, if we believe that movement is what will create achievement, then yeah, for sure, there's plenty of them. And that we have to also remember though, they are built by people.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And so there will always be like a trend within that system or that, let's say, industry or sector where it could be. And there will always be outliers. Look at the outliers. What are they doing? You could tell I've got a science background because I'm always like, what are the outliers doing? Are they doing it well? Are they still thinking? Can we make a case study for this?

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Because when we start using data like that, that's real, we can help inspire the other systems. They will move so much slower than we want, but it doesn't mean that they can't adjust or get there. The bigger the system, the slower change will happen. It doesn't mean it's not impossible. But it takes those little ideas, the sparks of people that say, okay, how do we create this even better? How we make this more? How can we prove that it actually works? And how do we innovate and try? As long as an organization will be somewhat open to innovation, change still can happen. Support can happen, success can happen. You have to be prepared for it to take longer than you want. That's the hardest part. I mean, that's probably what I learned the most with even achieving is that the things that matter most to me take a whole lot longer than I want them to take. And when I was trying to push the speed was when I would get frustrated, is when when I would start to tear my hair out. It was when I'd say, okay, what are the small little movements that help make today better? That get me moving in the right direction today, here now, and I start trusting those, they stack up, they stack up over time. And yeah, there'll be something like, Why? Why is this taking so long? And yet I can say, But look, it has stacked up. It the

Two Questions To Prevent Burnout

SPEAKER_00 33:09

it's been slow progress, but it has tacked up. So what it really takes is one spark, one idea, one little innovation, and then the people who care enough about their organization, about their system to want it to be better, and who are willing to take the small daily actions that build momentum to influence what you can. Because that's the other big issue is that if I want to influence a huge dynamic system, but I don't have any power in that system, I will just always be frustrated. If I am like, you know what, I can always influence my family, I can influence my friends, I can influence the coworkers who have interactions with me day to day, and I can make their lives better today a little bit. What do I want it to look like? How are we gonna do that? Let's tackle it.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, and I think that's the biggest thing to remember too, is it's easy to have burnout settle in when you feel like you've lost control and lost power. And remembering that you do still have control in influencing the people directly around you. And I can, you know, hideside 2020, looking back when I was in the darkest part of my own burnout, a lot of it did have to do with feeling like I was losing control of a lot of situations. You know, there was a lot of external things that were happening as well, but feeling like I was losing my voice, feeling like I was losing control of just making any type of decision within the role that I was in, but also realizing that I forgetting that I could also have influence around my crew and around the guys that I was working with. And it's hard once you get past a certain point to bring yourself back into that influence. But I feel like if we could help explain that if anyone is listening to remind them, if they haven't gotten too far into whatever burnout they might be in, you do have influence with anyone that you're working around and even leadership. And you might not even realize it that you have that power still.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, I had a coach who it's a phrase I keep on a post-it note on my desk to help me always remember. She said it in a class. And it was when you're kind of stuck in these places where you just feel completely stuck and frustrated and wishing that things were better. She always has you ask, what can I influence? What can I accept? And what can I control? I can always control me, my own emotions if I do the work, right? The emotional intelligence work. I can learn how to control my own emotions and manage them. I can influence people around me, but I can't influence everything and I can't control everything. And so what else am I willing to accept? And that's where the boundary comes in. If I've done these things of what I can control and what I can influence, and it's something that I'm not willing to accept, that's when I know it's time to just step away. That's okay. I tried. I gave my effort there, that's great. But also, if I've been trying to do all these different things and you realize there is growth happening, it's

Celebration, Adjourning, And Momentum

SPEAKER_00 36:10

not as fast as I want, but I can accept growth is happening, then I'll probably stick around. Let's figure it out together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Always looking back to see that growth. Even small growth is growth.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Exactly. I always say reflect back just as much as you dream forward.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

It is interesting too. I don't know why I was even thinking about it, but I don't know if any part of your studies included what they do over in Europe. But I've always been curious to see because you hear stuff when you're in America, you know, oh, they are always closed down by like five in the afternoon, or they don't ever have anything open on the weekends. And the maternity leave is phenomenal. And they're, you know, that you hear these fantasy stories about the work and they have midday afternoon siestas. I don't even know. But like over here, we're just like, oh my gosh, it's still the industrial revolution sometimes, making pennies on the dollar. I don't know if you had any part of research of that, but I'd be interested to see how much you can be more productive working less hours. And I feel like we had talked about this in the past, how you felt like you were working less hours, but actually being more productive. And that's how rest truly can be revolutionary when you change your mindset around it. And I don't know if you have anything to speak on that.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, I have so I don't have studies like comparing and contrasting. There are plenty out there. Like Dale Wheland is, I think he's in Ireland. He's been promoting the four-day work week in Europe and all these different things. Uh, culturally is the biggest thing. So for sure, no matter what, the culture, if your culture won't accept it, it won't happen. So that's part of why. Like, I don't know if you heard the story of how Disneyland Paris, like part it was rife with trying to open, kept getting pushed back. They had like kept going over budget. And I was watching a documentary, and they said once that part of their problem was they were building it out here in France. And if the sun came out, all their workers left. And they were, and as Americans who had come in to build a Disney park, they were like, What?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Where did why are they leaving? This is why we have it. So no matter what culture is going to play a part in that, and you have to live within your culture. I mean, I could go into like the Puritan mindset and all those kind of things, like from sociology, but I won't. You can dive deep into that if you want to. I think though, within our culture, within our context of especially the US, which is very much more high production, it's less quality of life, high production kind of things. That's just common with a capitalist society. Like this just part of it. That's what we live. What I learned for me was that, and this I actually picked it up from Cal Newport's book, Slow Productivity. He has four rules basically on how do you create great things. And he talks about one of the biggest detriments to really great achievements is busyness. That I can be so busy doing a million different things that I don't actually ever accomplish anything great. He uses lots of different examples. One of them is Jane Austen. When Jane Austen was like in the slogs of trying to handle everyday life, she didn't do her best writing. Her best writing happened once she got to the country and didn't have everyday chores all the time. And then we get like Pride and Prejudice and these amazing, great works of art that we know. And so for me, it was this understanding of how do I stop busyness? Because for me, that was effort. Effort is busyness. As long as I'm busy, things will

What She Wishes She Knew

SPEAKER_00 39:48

get done. And learning how to say, hmm, how do I embrace a more natural pace? And that came from Cal Newport. How can I embrace a natural pace of things? So that I am making progress. I am doing things, but I'm intentional about what I'm doing. And then I know it's going to lead to something great, not just a lot of something.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that because having intentionality behind what you're doing and knowing that it's creating something great is something that's so important in our work ethic. And I actually a couple episodes ago had talked about alienation theory and how it just has expanded in extreme capitalism. Obviously, we are hustlers, so we need that challenge and not diving into that, but you know, the alienation of the product itself and the alienation of producing the product and then the alienation of others, and then ultimately the alienation of our own identity. And it's interesting how when you dive deep into extreme capitalism and corporations, how that's really the ideology of what it turns out to be. You know, you end up losing yourself because you don't have any stake in the product, you have no say in how it's made. You really lose yourself because you're not around other people and you no longer want to be around your family. I mean, I remember when I was working for one fire department, the guys wouldn't even want to go home. They would just want to like take over time and they would say, Oh, I just want to make more money. But it's really because they were so used to being at the fire station, they just didn't even want to go home anymore. They lost that relationship with family. Yeah. So it's it's really interesting how you start losing that, you have that isolation to other people and to that creation and intention around your entire life.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Which is also why, like, one hobbies

Treat Yourself As A Resource

SPEAKER_00 41:45

are so freaking important. Have a hobby outside of work, outside of family that you just don't do for any other reason than you enjoy doing it. Because as soon as you monetize that hobby, you'll lose the power of it. So it's like one of those where if you start posting on social media because you do something well and suddenly it takes off, you'll end up painting it. So I have like a hobby, I garden, for instance, and I as everything I do, I research it and I do crazy things and I make, but I'm like, this is my space for me. This is also my space to mess up. I put a plant there and I was like, that died three times. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Why did it, you know, like, but I'm not like, oh no, I'm gonna lose my job or people are gonna critique me, or no, it's just like, oh, dang it, it died again.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Like so it became this outward motion, and there's lots of research around hobbies and how important they are in terms of us making sure we're maintaining kind of ourselves, that's a huge thing for well-being, and that type of understanding that I can create for the purpose of creating is a powerful thing, and it should exist outside of your other identities.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Yeah. Now, if someone is trying to decipher whether they're just a driven individual or if they're just completely dysregulated, what advice would you give to them to decipher?

SPEAKER_00 43:03

I love it. Because let's be honest, the hardest part of figuring out how to handle my stress is understanding when I'm tipping too far instead of waiting until I'm like on the floor, can't move, because obviously I'm too stressed out.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah, rocking back and forth. It's not existential crisis.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

What have I done myself? I did it again. So figuring out that tipping point is the hardest part. And that's where I'm like with even achieving if I know the overextention is the problem, how do I start tracking when I've started to overextend so that I can be more sustainable about it? So two questions you can use. If we want to take better care of our personal health, so think your nervous system, your emotional health, your physical health, then you need to learn to check in on your pace. And if you want to be take better care of your social health, so your families, our relationships, that's when we have to learn how to check in on our presence because drive can mean that I'm checked out with the people I love. So, two questions. To do that. Question number one works best in some time-bound thing, like a project, anything that's got a stutter end date. During that project, pick a date. And on that date, ask yourself

Resources, Links, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 44:12

if I continue at this pace, when I'm done, will I have enough energy left to celebrate? If you don't, you are moving too fast. If you don't want to, you're missing something in terms of meaning and purpose. And then when you get there, don't skip the freaking celebration. Do you know how often high achievers skit the celebration because they're just like, check relief, it's done. Move on. No. You're your motivation and your brain needs you to remind it what matters to you. And when you celebrate, you're telling your brain, this was worthwhile. I'd like to do it again. So celebrate. The second thing with your second question for presence. Find somebody that's in your life right now that you want to still have in your life a year from now, because they matter to you. And ask them in the last 30 days, have I been present enough for you? And wait for an honest answer. Because if you've been too checked out, it could be you're burnt out. It could also mean you're so driven that you're now choosing whatever the success is over the people that matter to you. But if you end up winning that success and you have no one to share it with, what's the point? Does it actually matter? So we've got to keep those people close. And that it is, it can be so easy to forget because man, and when success feels good, it's so glamorous. But I'd like to share it with the people who matter most to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

And I love that you brought up the celebration thing because I actually started taking these ADHD courses, and along with it came someone that you could work with once a week, like any court coach, which I didn't even know was a thing. I didn't know that you could learn in a different way. I just thought that you could just push through because I was like you. I could I was a great student in school, but I hated reading. I was one of those people that probably just slipped under the radar because I just always did so well, but I digress. So they stress very much so on just celebrating your your wins and throwing them up in geek Google keeps. And so I just remember the second time I had met with this guy, he's just like, I just said the most minute of things, I think that it was just so crazy. And he was like, you know what? I'm just so proud of you. I feel like a proud dad. And I was like, wow, I didn't really do anything. Like, I don't feel like I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

There was that connection there, which goes back to all of it, right? When we celebrate each other's successes, oh my gosh, let's talk about connection that happens on a human level that you can't really get any other way.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

And then what really got me thinking is I was like, wow, I have never celebrated any of my successes when I graduated the fire academy, when I became a paramedic, when I got my degree after putting it off for 12 years. You know, I was just like, all right, I did it, cool. Like, what's the next thing? What's the next dopamine hit? I never sat down with the weight and I just finished something that many people do not finish. And I did it, you know, like I never comprehended that. And here this guy is that I don't even know. It's like, you just checked off 12 boxes. And I was like, okay, you know, so but it makes you then want to accomplish so many more things, and it really did make me successful in the next few weeks beyond more than I had been in my business over the last few months. Your drive matters, it does, and it really does your brain into wanting to do more things.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Exactly. Exactly. I was similar, I would I didn't go to my high school or undergrad graduation because I was like, what's the point? I'm done. Like so my Harvard one was the first one I went to. I was like, wow, this is really fun. But we the only reason, too, that I like fully committed to it, because in the past I'd be like, oh, it's pumping circumstance. I want to spend money on the costume, and I want to spend money, I don't want to do any of that. With Harvard, I was like, I'll take my money. But part of it was because I had a professor, which I took several classes from her because I loved her so much. She taught me the power of adjourning. She's a clinical psychologist by trade, and then professor and entrepreneur by day, basically with us. And she would never let us end a class or a session without a good adjournment piece. So, like the end of the semester, she'd have us say, okay, what are three great things that you took away from this semester? What are two things you don't want to do again? And what is one word to summarize it all? Just something small that helped us wrap it up that I now do like at the end of every year. I'm like, I want to actually wrap this up with intention because if we're always moving forward, there are lessons that we aren't gonna learn that we should have learned. It'd be like sitting in the classroom, be like, I'm not listening, right? You're actually getting all this information, but because of the speed it comes, unless you take that pause and intend to reflect back through celebration of some sort, it could be big, it could be little, then you're also saying, I'm now gonna maximize that experience, which was my favorite word, of course. This is what we're cheaper. I was like, You want I can maximize my experience? I was I was leaving stuff on the table by not finishing and wrapping this up really well. Exactly. But wrap it up well, celebrate it, take what you want to learn from it, leave the things you want to leave behind with intention, and then keep taking that momentum forward. It makes things more sustainable because you're not just slogging and hanging on to everything, every step that you go and be like, okay, that one's done. Hang on to the rest, and then that one's done. Hang up, no. Let's wrap it up, let's close it up. Intention, take what we need from it, and then just bring that to the next things as strength and power to help us keep going. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

And what this might be kind of a heavier question, but what do you wish someone would have told you earlier that might have saved you some years?

SPEAKER_00 50:08

The thing is, I did have some people try, but I was like, I'm not listening to you.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

We're stubborn, we're very stubborn as hustlers.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

I had a manager at one point tell me, literally, she's like, Erica, I'm worried about your blood pressure. And I was like, don't I'm fine. And then she's like, No, nobody wants your hundred percent, only give 80%. And I was like, You want me to get a B minus on purpose? No, like I'm not gonna do that. Like, that was I was just like, fine, then I will take all of my work under the table, and you won't see that I'm still giving up. So part of that is really hard. I honestly wish that I had if it were to be anyone, it'd probably have to be me now, going back to me then and saying, Erica, breathe, take a breath, and start trusting more. You have to trust that if you are doing the good things, the small good things, the good things come to you. It's not necessarily even your best. That's what best should be. Did I do something today that I'm proud of in a good way? Did I try to make my little world a better space today? Can I be proud of that? And then breathe. Because if I let myself sit with it instead of being like, but I didn't do enough good things. No, no, no. Did I do one today? Can I sit down? It's not a sin to sit on the couch and watch something. There's a long time, everyone's sitting down, the house is a mess. What you know, learning how to say, it's okay that there's some mess. Just breathe. It'll work its way out. There are seasons. The seasons will shift, things don't last forever. Don't try to hang on to everything all the time. Sit and enjoy the season that you're in right now.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

I feel like that is a great place to pause because you've just shared something incredibly important and something that we don't always feel. We conceptually know it, we intellectually know that, but it's not something that we just digest. Because it's not about abandoning our drive and our ambition, but it it's just about questioning the belief that suffering is the entry fee to success, because we don't have to sacrifice ourselves and realizing that many of us, if not all of us, have never been taught a different way. So if anyone is listening to this and recognizing themselves as an overachiever or the reliable one, or someone that has just always been known as holding it all together, what is one thing that you would like for them to hear right now?

SPEAKER_00 52:46

I always like to think with them that one, you are the most important resource for getting things done. And don't forget that. If you are treating yourself, your own body, your own ability as the enemy between you and getting done what you want to get done, you're literally fighting yourself. How do you win that battle? There is no winner. And so for me, I think the most important thing I've had to learn how to do is to treat myself like a friend and a champion. Where I've started going, okay, I have needs. I am human. All right, okay, that's great. How do I use those instead of an annoyance or a frustration or something that's holding me back? How do I use that as a resource? How do I stack my resources so that I'm helping my body get things done instead of fighting against myself? How do I feed my mind so that it is my friend and then it's working with me instead of against me? I practice a lot of gratitude for that, for instance. I know that gratitude rewires your brain. And one of the very first things I now say to myself is I am grateful for my body. I am grateful for my personality, I am grateful for the lessons I have learned, even the ones that I didn't like. I am grateful that I am getting up every day. I am grateful that I'm moving forward every day. I've started doing yoga, which if you had said that to me five years and I'm like, what? Because I love it partly because it makes me one listen to my body. Like you stretch, you're like, I'm what? I'm sore there? Why am I sore that? You know, you start actually listening and paying attention, but even more so, I start saying now to myself, thank you. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for being here. If I'm moving so fast that I'm mad at my own body, that how did I ever talk myself into that being okay? How did I ever let that be the thing that got in the way? This is my vehicle for creating all the achievement and all the excess that I want to get done. So stop treating yourself as the enemy. You're not the enemy. You have so much wonderful things to give and produce and take care of in this world. So take care of yourself too, so that you can continue to give and produce and create great things.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I feel like that is a great place to leave this. If this conversation stirred something in you, I would challenge you to sit with it. Don't rush to fix it like we always do. I like to say that awareness is the movement, it's the first step. So, Erica, how can people find you and what resources would you like to leave our listeners with?

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Yeah, a couple of things you can find me. Like I write every week. I write about different ways to spark your motivation. I write about different ways to care for your needs, how to deal with the really hard, heavy stuff, how to put it all together. I write every week. You can find that on my website at Erica Colemanspeaks.com. And then if you're on a team or you lead a team of high performers and you're wondering, are we really just high performing sustainably? Or are we maybe quietly sneaking our way towards burnout? I do have a free assessment you can take at balanceyourteam.com. And that'll take you through how are we doing? Let's assess this first. Are we actually sustainably helping each other, or maybe we're eking our way towards this isn't working so well? Maybe we should recalibrate, can start that conversation that we've talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

Well, Erica, thank you for bringing your honesty, nuance, and depth to this conversation. For anyone who wants to learn more about Erica's work, we'll link everything in the show notes, including everything that she has mentioned, and even the TEDx talk that you had mentioned earlier. Yeah. Also, ways to work with her directly. Also, if this episode resonated, I recommend that you share it with someone who is quietly caring more than they actually admit. And also subscribe to the show to continue hearing great conversations like this and leave a review because the support does go a long way. Hustle Rebels is about having these types of conversations out loud so that we don't all have to keep paying the cost in silence. So I'll see you guys next week.