Creatine, Nicotine & Big Wellness: Where the Science Ends

This week on On the Mones, Kate sits down with Annie McCubbin for a conversation about what happens when real science collides with wellness marketing.

They unpack:

• why creatine isn’t just for gym bros
• how creatine actually works in muscle and in the brain
• what the evidence does, and doesn’t show for cognition
• why “mechanism” is not the same thing as “proof”

They also dive into the growing online claims that nicotine is a cure for dementia:

• how nicotine acts on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors
• why nicotine patches were studied in Alzheimer’s and mild cognitive impairment
• what the trials actually found
• and how wellness culture can take a tiny grain of scientific plausibility and inflate it into certainty.

Along the way, Kate and Annie talk about mental endurance, physical endurance, resilience, and why pushing through hard things, whether that’s running long distances, navigating midlife, or learning to think critically, changes the way you move through the world.

A conversation about science, scepticism, stamina, and why “interesting” is not the same thing as “proven.”

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Okay, my story, my relationship with Creatin. Um when I was a young actor in the uh in the late the late 80s and the early 90s.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Very recently.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah, very recently. I um I thought that if I was able to develop a strong and muscular, you know, buff pumped body, um, then that would help me get more roles as a um as a kind of rugged leading man type thing. And uh so I had my uh membership at the city gym and uh I heard about supplements and I think I went into a supplement store back then and asked for some um some protein and the the the young bloke behind the counter said, Are you taking creatine? I said, What's creatine? And he said, Well, you know, that's what you need if you want to um if you want to really sort of bulk up, if you want to put on muscle mass. And of course, um, this was many years before I met the delightful Andy McCubbin. My critical thinking skills weren't tremendous, and I was um I was kind of inclined to believe the story that was peddled by the yes, yeah, the buff um sales assistant. So um, yeah, I think the the the brand at the time was Musashi. And Musashi is still uh a brand, it's it's still on the market.

unknown 1:15

It's everywhere, it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

And um, yeah, so I took I took uh uh protein, extra protein supplements, I took creatine, um, I worked out at the gym, um, I did put on some bulk, uh, and I've got no idea whether I should put it down to just the um uh the weight training or the protein or the creatine. I would love to know because I still don't know. I still don't know whether I should trust it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

You're listening to On the Moans, where we have conversations about hormones, midlife, and the moments that make us wonder is it just me? I'm Kate, I'm a 48-year-old pharmacist and newly minted perimenopausal oversharer. This is where we talk openly about the changes we aren't prepared for, so we never have to feel alone in them again. I acknowledge the Camaragle people of the Iora Nation, the traditional custodians of the land which I am recording today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Hello friends, that was Logie Award-winning David McCubbin. I had the very great privilege of speaking with my dear friend and friend of the show, Annie McCubbin, who is the author of the Why Smart Women series, where she encourages critical thinking and explores why smart women can still make poor decisions. She is very interesting, so if you are inclined, you can hear her in more detail on her Why Smart Women podcast. I hope you enjoy our conversation about creatine, nicotine, and big wellness.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

So, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. That was David McCubbin talking about his um, you know, a number of years ago, how he was introduced to this idea of creatine and the miraculous things that it could do for you. Um so today on the podcast I am interviewing or talking to or chatting with my friend Kate Thomas about a number of things, one of which is going to be the validity of the claims around creatine. Because I, as you know, listeners, because I do bang on about it relentlessly, I do go to the gym. At the moment, every single person is shoveling creatine into themselves, and it's not just for muscle building, muscle repair, um, it's apparently miraculous and also helps with all the menopausal women's memory issues. So I guess uh I I would like that. I I would like the things that it that it purports to to actually do. So I thought rather than just being either fully positive about it or just reflexively negative about it, we could talk to Kate.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Hello, Kate. Hello Annie. Thank you for inviting me to chat. And I'm I'm very excited to speak to you about this because I have a mechanism for you. And in the safe space that is the Why Smart Women podcast, I'd like to admit And also your podcast, because this app's going to be on your podcast too, right? Yes, I'm going to put it up on my podcast as well, which is on the Moans. In the safe space that is the podcast studio, I'm going to admit to you that I am one of those people that shovels creatine. Please. Please can we still be friends?

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Oh, we can because is it is it a good thing? Or because if it is, I'm into it.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I think that David was absolutely correct. So creatine has been studied since the 90s, and there's two so there's one mechanism that's being extrapolated to two different scenarios. So the gym scenario and then the cognition scenario. Yeah. Yeah. And this is what everyone's talking about. That's right. So originally creatine is just to do with energy buffering, I suppose, in your muscles. Your muscles use a lot of energy when you're at the gym when you're doing short spurts of I don't know, of exercise, like weightlifting or sprint training or something like that. You're uh your muscles are energy hungry at that time, and and creatine is so it's actually phospho-creatine by that stage, is is like a rapid energy reserve. So instead of getting glycogen turned into energy, so normally you would eat food, you'd get the sugar from it. Like a carbohydrate. That's right. So you and your body would need to convert that by glycolysis into energy. So instead of doing that, ATP, which is the the molecule in like the little transmitter, gets instantly replenished by phosphocreatine. So that's that's the mechanism behind it, is that you get you get faster energy from creatine. So it doesn't actually bulk. I mean, the other thing it does do is it it draws water into the cells. So that's why you you'll you'll hear Jim Bros say that their muscles look bigger. It's because they're actually holding on to more water. That's really got nothing to do with the muscle building side of it. The idea is that your muscles have more, have more opportunity to have access to faster energy. Therefore, you can do an extra rep, you can run a little bit faster because you're adding strain onto those muscles, then you improve.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

So this so because it's like an of an availability of more energy. Yes, that's right, like quicker, like a quick a quicker delivery of energy. Yes. Means that I I'm in the gym and I can do I can do an extra 50 metres or I can do an extra lift.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yes. Which is that right? That's right. So that means that you can put more strain on your muscle or your cardiovascular fitness, like whatever it is you're trying to improve, and therefore you get better.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

So according to David, creatine has been around for 30 years now.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yes, it's been well, it's been studied since the 90s. I don't know how long it's actually been around. There's been lots of lots of studies.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So this current almost I would call it a hysteria. Yeah. Is because of the influences. Is that what's happened?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, so I think what what then has happened is that people have have extrapolated that. So they've gone, muscles in under stress when you're exercising, use a lot of energy. Your brain is the thing in your body that consumes a huge amount of energy. It consumes something like 20% of your total energy output, your brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Therefore, if your brain is under stress, so you're tired, or you're, you know, thinking maybe you're it maybe you have some uh um menopause or brain fog, or maybe you're in the early no. Well, so I think that's where your wellness has become conflated. So originally the thought was that your your brain uses a lot of energy. When your brain is under fatigue, so you're tired or you're thinking a lot, then it needs it also needs access to faster energy. Creatine crosses the blood-brain barrier, so therefore, in the same way that your muscles have access to faster energy, so does your brain. That all sits really nicely together. What where I think big wellness have absolutely blown it out of the, you know, they've gilded the lily. Is that is that the correct way of using that term? Over-eggeding lily is good, that's good, that's good, that's good. Over-egged that pudding is then That's two metaphors in a row, that's really good. So, so go. That's because you know why? Because I've hadn't had my creatine this morning. So then that whole, oh, you know, it improves cognition, it improves your brain fog, you know, it it prevents cognitive decline, that that kind of thing, that that's all a bridge too far. So the the studies haven't gotten to that stage. But what the studies have shown is that mechanistically it is plausible that your brain would need access to more energy when it's tired, therefore creatine can provide. We're not talking I go to the gym and I deadlift five kilos, and now I have creatine and I go to the gym and I deadlift 105 kilos. Like it's it Are you sure?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Because that sounds really good.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Well, you have like that. So and you have seen me, and I am pretty swole, I know. Like you're you're astonishing muscle.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

I I'm a little bit frightened of you. Like when you walk into a room, I feel intimidated by your bulk. Physically impressive I am. Yeah, you are it's astonishing. Just so so the just the just imposing. You're an imposing, an imposing presence. I guess my okay, so with this, it just is it inferential? Oh, well so we hang on, hang on, we've got the notion of it of it bulking up or get getting quicker energy into the muscles and then holding water and then bulking upright. And then is it inferential, therefore, because it crosses the blood-brain barrier, that it is also going to do that for the brain? Is that just inferential or how do they reach that conclusion?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

They've done a number of studies. So a 2024 systematic review looked at 16 randomized controlled trials, so over 500 adults, and found that creatine had positive effects on memory, attention time, and processing speed, but not overall cognition or executive functioning. They're saying for people who are well, then you might get some benefit. But if you if you actually have a cognitive decline, so if you have a diagnosis of some kind of cognitive decline, then it's not going to slow or stop.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

So I'm just I'm just trying to think my way through it. So this trial they did, I mean, how robust was it? Because I I guess and who ran the trial?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yes, it was it was a meta it was a meta-analysis.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Of the 500 people.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yeah, so it so it was a the Oh you it was a it was a meta-analysis. So that meta-analysis where they go back and they have a look at all the trials that were done and they pull out the results and they have a look retrospectively. So, but no, you're you're you're right. It's not it's not nearly uh like all of these things, they're not nearly as impressive as big wellness would have you believe. So when you have some gorgeous 20-year-old thing in the tiniest bike shorts and crop top at the gym lifting, you know, with a perfectly ripped body, saying, you know, I I take creatine and it helps me lift heavier and I'm gonna remember things for forever, of course it's not, it's not of course it's not like that. You know, but nothing, nothing replaces the boring things that we know work, you know, like getting enough sleep, maintaining adequate nutrition, remember staying hydrated with water, and reducing the amount of alcohol that you consume.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Shut up, Kate. Who asked you to come on the podcast? Who asked you? It wasn't me.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

No, and um not smoking, like just boring. I don't smoke, yay, go me. Yay, go me. And me, although although um when we get a chance to talk about nicotine, we'll wish we'd taken up smoking because apparently nicotine's the thing that's gonna cure everybody.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Oh, the guy, the guy on that you sent me with the nicotine patches, weren't they?

SPEAKER_01 12:36

What is that? Oh, so he's um I kinda I'm not even gonna say his name because I don't want to give him any kind of free publicity, but he's huge on social media and he's he's got a number of different wellness lanes, but one of the things that he's constantly peddling is that nicotine is a proven cure for Alzheimer's and dementia.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Oh, a proven cure for Alzheimer's.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yes, yes, a proven Almighty.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

So if my mother had just had just, you know, taken up smoking, she could have avoided that 20-year decline into the into the fog of Alzheimer's, it would have been awesome.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Silly, silly lady. So he's actually, I mean, he's not saying he's not saying smoking. He's he's really talking about the he's really talking about nicotine. And the thing about it, it's like all of these wellness things, Annie, is that they take something that could be mechanistically plausible and then they just inflate it. They just stretch it out to become something that it's that it's not. So I suppose they did they have looked at nicotine for cognition because the uh because of the acetylcholine receptors, and nicotine is a um is an agonist. So that's an actual mechanism. It also feeds into the um dopamine reward pathways and the noradrenaline, which gives you alertness and acetylcholine, which gives you attention and memory singling.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Well, that would be the thing about smoking, wouldn't it? I mean, wouldn't you get a dopamine hit through isn't that the whole cycle better?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, and and it suppresses your appetite, which is we know all of this. So then they've taken that and they've gone, well, if it if it hits us. Oh, I know. If it does that, yeah, therefore, nicotine must be a support in cognitive decline. And that's it is being studied, but there's there's no cure for dementia currently. None.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Yeah, I know, I know. Uh it's it just seems like this inferential sort of extrapolation, doesn't it? It's sort of there's something, and then I'll take it and I'll go, well, uh it sort of naturally I'm just going to infer that that does that, and then you extrapolate on that, and then you've got this these mad wellness, as you say, over-egged promises, and we just awash with them. If I can just briefly go back to the creatine, uh why do you take it?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So I take it for a number of reasons. Mainly, well, I I started going to the gym. I also so for people who haven't seen me, I'm quite slight and my She's very you're very little. And my family are all quite slight. I can see I look exactly like my mum who looks like her mum. So I can see the way I guess I'm going to age physically, and they're And how is that? How are you going to age? Well, there's they're skinny little things. So for me, laying down muscle is really challenging. So I've never been overweight, but for me to put down even a tiny bit of muscle fiber, I find really, really difficult. So then I thought, well, to try and age as well as I can, be able to pick up things and you know, do the stairs and all of that stuff when I'm older, I'm going to need to be proactive about it. So and to do that, I'm going to need to start now. I mean, probably earlier would have been better, but I'm, you know, start now and doesn't matter. That's right. And try and do the best that I can, which is weight training, all those boring things we talked about before. It increasing the amount of protein that I eat. And then I went, well, look, creatine has been has been studied for a long time. It's really cheap, and I can tolerate it. So why not throw that in?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Okay, I've got an I just want to ask a question on why not. Um, this is the amount of reading I sort of do, and and and also just the things anecdotally I hear about people that have taken supplements and then um end up with liver damage. Kat Mack, who is one of um Richard Saunders' reporters. Oh yeah. You know Kat Mack? Yeah. She had terrible, terrible damage from being treated by a um a herbalist. Yeah. Like terrible. And she's been ill for years. So I guess my question is, because um my gym has introduced all these new things. It's got creatine, it's got a pre-workout thing, and it's got some hydrating thing. I don't mind the hydrating thing, though I I'm I don't know if it's doing me any good, but I like sweet things and it's quite sweet. One of my friends the other day took the pre-workout whatever, a scoop of stuff into the water bottle, and then it happened two times in a row. She felt like she had ants crawling all over her body. She felt this really weird sort of had a weird physiological response. And then we looked at it, it had quite a lot of caffeine.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Now, is can that do that? That sort of can that do that to you?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, so huge amounts of caffeine absolutely can make you anxious and feel horrible. I also don't mind a bit of pre-workout, but when I have pre-workout, I'm having a piece of toast with jam and a coffee. Because really, the amount of caffeine that you need to to temporarily pretend like trick your brain that you're not fatigued, because you in fact are fatigued, but what you're trying to do is trick your brain to thinking that you're not fatigued so you can get more repetition. Is that what it is? Well, yeah, well, of course, because your your muscles are as fatigued as they're going, you know, they're as fatigued as they're going to be. But if you can if you can get your brain to forget that they're fatigued, then you can lift that extra thing or whatever it is. Um and then the rest of pre-workouts just maybe a little bit of salt, you know, if you if you want a little bit of um electrolyte, and then a carbohydrate because you need that quick energy because otherwise you have to before the workout. Yeah, because otherwise you have to get all the fat molecules, like that accessing energy from your fat stores is really hard for your body to do, whereas accessing it from the carbohydrate that you've just eaten is so much easier. So of course your body prioritises that.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

But isn't the whole thing, don't isn't the whole weight loss thing, which you know we're also just a wash with, isn't the whole thing that people go to the gym so that they will be accessing the fat stores?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, and I think that is that right or is that not right? No, that is that is what people think, but to to be able to access the fat stores, you have to you have to practice doing it for a start, but also that's that whole calorie deficit thing, you know, as if as if you you eat this and then you work out more than you're in a calorie deficit and therefore you'll lose weight. And exercising is is just not that efficient at burning calories, like the amount of calories you get from a banana and the amount of calories you get from a gym workout are practically the same. You know, you have to go out and run for hours and hours and hours.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

So, yes, I think people do think that, but that's not how your body's actually managing it.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

So on Saturday, I I I've been I'm so suggestible. So we we do this, you know, the HIROX in the city. There's this big thing, it's all over the world, of course, the HIROX. And then my gym is having a like um a small in-house HIROX. And then I was saying to someone last week, someone said, 'Can you believe people our age are doing the HIROX?' I'm like, I know. And then, of course, the next day someone said to me, Do you want to do the HIROX? I said, Yeah, sure, I'm in. So that's me, that's the way my brain operates. That's also so stupid. Anyway, I'm also doing it with someone half my age, as per. But anyway, so then someone said to me this morning, you should be having, because there's quite a lot of running in it, and I'm terrible at running. Um, so someone said you should be having some toast and a banana or something before you go and do it. Now, when I get up in the morning, and I this has been the same for my entire life, I feel I feel nauseous. The thought of food on my war. And I I do my exercise on an empty stomach, and then I go and have a coffee, and then I eat a couple of hours later, and that's what I've been doing for years and years. But are we saying maybe I should actually force myself to have that banana?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Well, you are the boss of your own body, but for me, I had to practice getting up before because we'd we'd um we'd train to do these huge long runs, right? Like Yeah, you're ex you're like a marathon runner, which is you're in a different league. Or or even or even longer, you know. So we'd we'd go out and we'd we'd run for 12, 14 hours. Who's we? Oh, um, the group that I was with at the time. So my group of friends, we were we were all we were all doing it together. And I would have to practice getting up and having something to eat before we started, and then also had to practice eating during the Exercise. I mean, a high rocks, I think, is only six or eight kilometres of running.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah, but that for me, like I'm seriously, like I'm quite good in the gym at rowing and ski and biking. My running is just tragic. So I'm only doing the half. I'll be doing like 4K, 5K max.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

And that will then take you an hour.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah. So I think plus all the the wall balls and the lifting and the sled pulling. Yeah, yeah, but the whole the whole high rocks will take you an hour. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if you're if you're already, if your body is used to already getting up and doing an hour's workout at the gym on no food, then I wouldn't be changing that. Oh, cool. But I think but I think if you looked at it on paper, you go, yeah, you need some you need some carbohydrate before you exercise so that you've got some energy to burn whilst you're doing it. Otherwise you bonk. That's what that whole bonking thing is in the um in the marathon. You hear people go, you know, I got to 35 kilometres and then I Oh they're called, you know, hitting the wall. It's just your Oh hitting the wall. Yeah. So your your um your muscles just run out of glycogen. Yeah, like glycogen, and then they've got and then they're they've got nothing. Then they're literally got nothing. Which is that that's that heating rod.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

So can I go back to you? It's just really interesting. So you were running, you would run for twelve or fourteen hours.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

But not but what with little breaks?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

What's the deal? No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean obviously you have have a break to do a wee, but no, we'd pretty much be going at a consistently, we call it go all day pace, so you can run along and still maintain a conversation. So cardiovascular, you know, cardiovascularly, you're not you're not puffing, but you you know, it that's that was an endurance exercise, and so over that period of time you need to make sure you're taking in a certain amount of food to be able to move your body over that period of time.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Okay, to back to you with the 12 and 14 hour runs. How how many K's is that?

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Oh, 50 or 60? So we go into the Blue Mountains and do trail runs. There were always trail runs and sort of interesting to look at and just interesting topography. Yeah, and just being out in the bush and just being with your girlfriends. Nice. Yeah, being with your girlfriends and just just doing something that was a little bit mentally and physically challenging because I suppose in my everyday life, physically, you know, I'm not I what challenges do I have really? You know, I don't I don't have anything to overcome like I'm not living in a war-torn country, you know, like I don't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to get some mental resilience, I've sort of got to go out and look for some tough things to do.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

And and would you say that it has provided you with that? Oh some mental toughness?

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah, absolutely. So the how does it translate into your life? I can absolutely think I'm about to go and do something that I don't want to do, or I'm nervous about doing something, or um something's gonna be challenging for me, and I can say, but yeah, but do you know what you you have carried your bike in a upper mountain in Malaysia with your knees, uh like up to your knees in elephant poo for 15 hours. If you can do that, you can do this. And my brain goes, you know what, you're right. And so that's very, very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Because you know, there's these um, because I've worked in the corporate sector for such a long time, and there's a lot of team building exercises, you know, where you'll have to do there'll be sort of an activity that is challenging. And I always used to look at it and go, I wonder if this actually translates, because there's not a lot of follow-up on it, you know, there's not a lot of data that they collect afterwards, you know, it's like people that do sort of intensive seven-day internal exploration of their childhood and their patterns, and and you know, they come out of it going, oh my god, that was just incredible, and I hit a mattress and I cried, and we all love each other, and it's just really beautiful. And um, and I I I don't think there's a lot of data collected on on long-term changes, on actually has that affected your life. And it's interesting to hear you say in a positive way, and it's interesting to hear you say that you have it something challenging to do, and then you actually specifically use that event like as a juxtaposition. And if I can do that, then I can do that. And I I find that very, very interesting in terms of resilience because resilience is the new black, right, at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yes. Well, I even when I sit down on an airplane, I mean, you know how much I love to sit still. So Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I love it, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

I hate sitting still, and I don't like being cooped up. So if I have to sit on a long haul aeroplane flight, yeah, I can get quite anxious about it. Antsy. Antsy. And now I can sit down and go, do you know what? You have carried your bike for longer, or do you know what? You have sat in a kayak for longer. And if you can do that, then you can endure this. Then it just becomes a an endurance. Yeah, you know, an endurance exercise that I that I know I can do.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Well, you're making me feel better about the fact that because I'm so highly suggestible and say yes to everything, that I said yes to the high rocks. Yeah, you should. And it's good because this morning at the gym he was like, Who's doing the high rocks? And me and the 30-year-old put our hands up. Uh, I thought it was interesting that we're both asthmatics. I quite like that. I said, Look, the the asthmatics just you know, we we win. Is that your team name? Yes, the asthmatics, right? It's funny. The heavy heavy breathers. You you'd better you can take it easy today. I was like, Wow, fucking what? Why would I do that? He said, You don't have to, you know, when it says, you know, go for this run, you can just sit on the bike. I was like, I don't know. I'm like I'm I'm a special I'm a special athletic, asthmatic person. And look what I'm allowed to do. But I thought that was quite funny that we were given special dispensations. That's because I'll probably just be like I am the slowest runner at the gym.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Doesn't matter. Like doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, and also who cares? Because it's not as if you're going to go and represent the country. So really who cares? Well, maybe you aren't. Huh? Huh?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Maybe you aren't I maybe you so that's really negative of you, Kate. Oh, yeah. Like that was my aim. Yes, I know I'm not gonna represent the country, so what does it matter? It's the fact that I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Absolutely, of course. I mean, it's like showing up, right? Isn't that the whole thing? That yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Okay, so I'm just gonna want to wind this right right back to the beginning. I have another one more question about the creatine and also the SUPs, they call them the SUPS. Drives me insane. Who's got the SUPs you buying the SUPS, you take the SUPS? Um, so the SUPS, the supplements, this is my concern is how do we know where they're manufactured because of the lack of oversight by the TGA?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yes, and that is a legitimate concern because I was I was reading an article, um, I think it was on the TGA website because that's how cool I am. And you're so cool. It was about they looked at melatonin supplements and um because yeah, melatonin is it well and melatonin is quite highly regulated in this country, but in America you can buy it literally everywhere, and they had a look at a whole bunch of different products, and the variation in what the label said and what was actually in the product was wild. So some of them some of them had icing sugar, icing sugar, and some of them had ten times the amount that had been advertised on the label. So buying supplements online is like the wild west.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yeah, I know. And my my friend, uh Cat Mack, who who's the reporter for for the Australian Skeptics, she's a Canadian, and I you probably never heard the app, but um, she is an asthmatic and she went to a herbalist and he gave her this drug or this herb or whatever, whatever it was, the tinch of the herb, the sup. And um, she felt incredible, like she felt so much better, it was amazing, and then she began to have some very weird symptoms and became quite ill. And it um they worked out that what he'd done was crush up um prednisolone, and she was taking 120 gram 120 grams of it a day. Milligrams, milligrams, and like when I take prednisolone, it was like 20 times the dose that you should take. But she was doing it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what would I take? I think I take 50 grams and then 25 grams and then 20. No, she was on like like 300. It was like an incredible amount and consistently daily.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Oh my god, did she she probably she hadn't slept for a week?

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Well, she just ruined her. Yeah, she's never recovered from it. No, so that always that that an anecdote has really stuck with me. So then I look at, you know, I look at this supplement and I go, well, where's it manufactured? How do I know the TGA do not have oh for the overseas listeners? The TGA is the therapeutic goods administration here in Australia, and um, they just don't have the resources.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

They don't have the resources, and also they can't control, they can't control what you buy because when you buy something from overseas, you become the importer, then you're taking responsibility right for it. The thing that I mean I've said this to you before, Andy, but I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face, is that if if someone is telling you that something has an effect, then it also has the potential to have a side effect. And if someone is telling you, trying to sell you something that has no side effects, then you can be pretty sure they're either lying or it has no effect. And people people need to think logically about what they're putting in their body because everything's a chemical. So even this whole natural versus yeah, but it it's a funny way of thinking to my mind because if everything is a chemical and you want something to have an effect, then to my mind it would be much safer to have something that had been through all the regulations and all the trials and all the dose finding studies and all of the manufacturing rigour than to have something that hadn't done all of that but was calling itself natural. And then it and then also to remember that lots of nasty things are natural like cancer, like arsenic, arsenic, like snake, snake venom, you know. So I just I I guess I've my mind finds it very difficult to understand how, for example, 90% of I think it's 90% of molecules of potential molecules that go that drug companies look at developing, 90% that look promising end up failing for whatever reason along the process. Now that's on purpose. That that bar is high on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

On purpose. It's the appeal to nature bias. It's it's massive, the appeal, it's everywhere, it's like all natural. But the the the thing is you have a you have a scientific brain. Most people don't. And we think in broad brush strokes, and and and and we we think in polarities, and good we think in black and white and good and bad. So you've got uh big farmer bad, you know, big supplement good, wellness good, become a bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, and I don't fully understand how that narrative. I mean, I think in America it's probably quite different, and I need to keep reminding myself that that the American system is very different to the Australian system, and that in Australia there's no remuneration for the prescription of medicines by doctors. I have to keep reminding myself of that because of course in in America I think that you can you can get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which which then erodes that trust that you have with your prescriber. And I understand why it would, which is exactly why we have these laws that mean that we can't do that. People also really need to understand that big wellness makes much more money than big pharma. Not that I'm saying big pharma is five times. Five times, but I'm not here saying big pharma is altruistic and angels and they're out there for the It's just better testing. It's just better testing. It's better testing and just evidence. It's better testing and better data.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

It's just better testing, better data and and and more rigorous. But trying, you know, the amount of cookers that I follow um that are like the child their baby gets sick, and then people are going, um, what you've got to do is just strap an onion to their chest and and then give them some ivermectin and then use some aged urine.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yes, it's like what it's just that aged urine thing is just going frigging off. It it it is. That was a good pun there, Eddie. Um it is it is going off. And um I I think also people I would like people to think that when they saying, well, there's not enough money to do these tests in big wellness, then my response to that would be big wellness makes so much more money than Big Pharma. There's plenty of money.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Plenty of money in big wellness. But there's there's just they just don't have to because it's it's not they're not um legally required. That's terrible. It's terrible. So how would I know? Let's say, because I I would like to have a bit more energy at the gym. If you're buying from overseas, then No, I would never. I would never I would never order something, but uh there's you know, like my gym has a has a product line.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah, so I could buy it. You of course you could, and where's it come from? How would you know? I don't know. I mean well, and the other the other layer on top of that, which um has been front of mind because my friend is uh an advocate in a modern slavery, is like there's that level to it as well. So you don't if you're I mean now now we're talking a bit more broadly about buying anything online, but if you're buying from from overseas and you can't trace so you might be able to trace your creatine back to the wholesaler in wherever it's come from, but you don't know where that wholesaler has gotten the original.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

No, I don't know. Well, no, you don't. You don't know, and you'll never know. You'll never know that because so you'll never know if it's the purity of whatever's going in, but you'll also never know if there's been modern slavery or if the environmental impact like you you will you will never know.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Oh it's just honestly, we're in the hands of the Philistines really disturbs me. Yeah I've just I just go back to drinking iced water. I thought you were gonna say um champagne.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

I thought you were gonna say go back to drinking champagne.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Well, I will I do as well, but not in the morning. Oh, I would have standards. I I have a weird because I've got weird, you know, rules that I adhere to, pretty stringently. I don't drink uh in the day at all. I don't like it. Isn't that so weird?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

No, it's I just don't like it. I don't like it particularly either, che chiefly because I just feel like I need to go and have a snooze. I'd be no Me too. I'd have I'd be no company because Me too. I'd have a drink at lunch and then I've got to go immediately to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah, it's me too, and I just I I then I get a headache, so I don't I don't commence anything, and my friends know not to never to invite me to go out for an afternoon drink because this won't do it. I will have a glass of wine after six. Yes, yeah, oh because then I can go to sleep at eleven and it's very nice. 9 30. So on that on that note, it's very nice to go to sleep after a nice glass of wine. I have about 700,000 questions that I have to ask you, um, just generally. So please can we do another joint podcast very soon?

SPEAKER_01 38:35

I love chatting to you, Annie. I always love chatting to you, and I love that you're sitting in front of is that a gold logie behind you?

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Silver.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

It's a silver logie. Where is it?

SPEAKER_02 38:44

It's always in shock. It's not my logie, it's it's David's Logie. And I had just started um going out with him just for overseas visitors uh visitors, Annie, get a grip, overseas listeners. The logies are the Australian sort of TV awards. Anyway, and um I just started going out with David, and he was very young and spunky. He'd been taking the creatine and it had really worked for him.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

And the protein.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

And the protein. And he was um in a mini-series called Jackaroo. Yeah. And he was the lead. In fact, interestingly enough, the first time I ever heard his name was on the television. Said, and coming up on channel 7, we have the mini-series Jackaroo starring David McCubbin and Annie Jones. And I thought, I wonder who David McCubbin is anyway, 32 years later. Anyway, so I went down with him to the Logies in Melbourne. I looked really good. I remember I had a really good dress on. God damn it, he won.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

And he he stood up there and he held up that logie, and we still have it.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Yes, I can see it behind you. It's lovely, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

On that note, I'm going to say goodbye to the listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. I adore talking to you. I'd like to do it more regularly. I think we have a really good thing going here. Yes. But listeners, please do be careful if you're going to shovel some supplement or vitamin into yourself and just see if you can do a bit of exploration as to the validity of the claims and the safety of taking it. On that note, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye. Bye.