SmartMonesZone The Calibrate Coffee Edition

What happens when On the Mones, Why Smart Women and The Skeptic Zone all end up around the same café table?

You get Smart Moans Zone.

Recorded at Calibrate Coffee, we’re joined by our very special guest Dr Angie from Atlanta, USA, for a conversation that somehow manages to cover cutting-edge medicine, pseudoscience, social etiquette and Australia’s noisiest birds.

In this episode we chat about:

• The recent Four Corners investigation into peptides, including Dr Norman Swan’s reporting on the rapid rise of peptide clinics, the evidence, the hype and the challenges of regulation.
• Ear candling—why it continues to be popular despite the evidence (or lack of it).
• One of life’s great social dilemmas: you’ve just met a group of new people, you’ve been enthusiastically eating bruschetta, and only later discover an enormous basil leaf has been decorating your front tooth the entire time. Would you want someone to tell you? And if you’re the observer… do you say something?
• And, because we’re recording outdoors in Sydney, we also wage a losing battle against the soundtrack provided by some particularly enthusiastic sulphur-crested cockatoos.

It’s science, scepticism, friendship, coffee and complete conversational chaos, in exactly the proportions you’d expect.

Grab a coffee, pull up a chair, and join us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Yeah. Wow. It's like a doorstop. It is. It looks amazing.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

You're listening to On the Moons, where we have conversations about hormones, midlife, and the moments that make us wonder, is it just me? I'm Kate. I am a 48-year-old pharmacist and newly minted perimenopausal oversharer. This is where we talk openly about the changes we aren't prepared for, so we never have to feel alone in them again. I acknowledge the Camaragle people of the Eora Nation, the traditional custodians of the land which I am recording today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to a very, very special I'll try that again. Special. Special. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to a very special combinatorial episode where we have the why smart women, the skeptic zone, and on the moans um podcasts all combined. So what's the what how have we combined it, Richard? What's the actual what are we going to call it then?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Why we we have a um an embarrassment of riches. We could call it the why smart women are on the moans zone.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Oh yeah, I like that. Why smart women are on the moons zone. Okay, that's that's where we are today, listeners. Um so for people that are not residing in Australia, and thank you so much for tuning in. Um we also have a very, very special guest from the United States of America. Good morning. Good morning. Angela, would you like to introduce yourself and say what you're doing here and what your job is and how amazing you are?

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Well, sure, you got the time? Yes, where do you start? No, no, no. So uh yeah, I literally just flew in this morning from the US. I'm come I came down to Australia to go to the Nauticon being put on by the Skeptics Guide to the Universe in conjunction with the Australian Skeptics. So I'm extremely excited to be here. And then I'll also be stalking them over to the New Zealand Skeptics meeting as well. So that will be my first time to New Zealand. Your very first time to New Zealand. Where is it in New Zealand? Is it in Wellington? No, it's in Christ Church. Um I'm but I'm flying to Auckland first where I plan to go jump off a bridge. As you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Go to Auckland, jump off a bridge.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

Precisely.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah, I've known uh Dr. Angela for well the best part of 20 years, almost 20 years.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

We were doing the math today, isn't it? And we've we've determined that that's that's pretty close to the actual time frame.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

And I met her first in Atlanta, Georgia, where I went to speak at what they call Dragon Con. I know Dragon Con.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

I don't know Dragon Con. Explain Dragon Con, please to the Dragon Con novice over here, busy eating her eggs to go on.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

It's like uh a huge combination of pop culture, science fiction, fantasy, art, science.

SPEAKER_05 3:08

It's one of the world's largest pop culture science fiction uh uh fantasy conventions. Sounds fine. And it's in Atlanta every Labor Day weekend. And um I am the assistant director of the skeptic uh track there.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

But it's it's it's colossal. I mean, when I went almost 20 years ago, it was colossal. And and when I went in 2017, it was twice as colossal. I can't imagine what it's like now.

SPEAKER_05 3:33

It's it's still pretty big. Uh we did take a hit in uh because of COVID. We had numbers that decreased, but they're back up to where they were pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Right. So the commonality between all of us um here broadcasting from Roseville, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Calibrate coffee.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

And we are at a very nice cafe that's called Calibrate Cafe. Yep. So if you are roaming around the Roseville area, or chats would do pop in for a coffee. But the commonality between all of us is that we are all highly sceptical and trying to, I suppose, fight the scourge of disinformation that is currently flooding.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

What what what did you say earlier, or Kate or somebody, we're we're all anti-woo? No, no, anti-wellness. Wellness.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

We're strongly anti-wellness. And speaking of that, um, last night on Four Corners, which is an an ABC production here in Australia, they were talking about um oh excuse that that's a sulfur-crested cockatoo making that noise, by the way. Um quiet. Um they were talking about the the misnomer, I think, of longevity and what people are doing to try and embrace longevity. And one of the things they're doing is taking peptides. Do you want to talk about peptides? You got any interest in peptides? Yeah, she's laughing now and looking depressed.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Um, yeah, not much to say, is there?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I need to know a bit about peptides. I don't know much about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So uh what is a peptide? It's a a short uh a short chain. A short chain of amino acids. Amino acid. And at the moment it is being absolutely um, it's exploded. I don't know what it's like in the States, but here in Australia, it is exploded uh uh across the the internet mainly due to clueless influences that are unpacking it in a very excited manner, shoveling it into themselves. Sorry, I've cut you off. Yeah, do do do just cut me off. Because I'd like to have my toast.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Yes, have my toast. I want to get and I'll just talk for a little bit, Dr. Angie, while you get that mouthful in. But I want Dr. Angie's opinion on. So last night on the report, um, Norman Swan, Dr. Norman Swan was um he he was interviewing a whole lot of different people, but he interviewed the chief medical officer of the TGA, which is you probably know Dr. Angie, it's our equivalent of the FDA. Therapeutic goods administration. So he was interviewing the chief medical officer and really saying to her, really saying to her, um, why is it that the TGA has not got better control over these illegal substances that are being prescribed? To which she said it's not the TGA's responsibility to regulate prescribing that's UPRA, which is our um health professional regulatory body. Which I suppose is true, but when she said it, it sounded so much like shirking of that responsibility. It sounded so weak to me that she was like, well, we always let practitioners prescribe within with it with a certain amount of leeway, and it's down to the practitioner and how they how confident they feel, but then also knowing that they have given the patient enough information to make an informed consent, like of the risks. Just found that crazy.

SPEAKER_05 7:15

Okay.

unknown 7:16

Good.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Well, um, yeah, I mean there is there is something to be said for giving uh physicians uh leeway for clinical judgment. Yes, there are quite a few things that we use off label in that sense. Um so one of my favorite examples is Colchicine was prescribed for gout for a century, and then they uh uh actually did some testing to verify that it was effective against gout, pulled it off and then reissued it and a patent on it, so the price went up dramatically. We had known that it worked for sen for almost a hundred years, and I actually think that's kind of unethical to reissue it under a new administrative uh uh use, under a new use. Um, the FDA was able to grant a specific recommendation for gout based on those studies. But colchicine was uh FDA approved. It was, but not for that particular use. And so when they took it and and actually did the trials, um this happened probably 20 or 30, 20 years ago or something, and then when they reissued it under this particular usage, they were able to put it to uh at the higher price.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

But these these um peptides aren't approved at all. For nothing, for no use, for animal for laboratory use only.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

And it's on the gray market, they say it's all the grey market. And when they actually took these peptides and took it into a lab, sometimes it only had it same as we, you know, we we know this what this is what happens with supplements, right? That they might have only had 46% instead of the 100%. Or zero. Or zero. And there was one that was absolutely zero. Not only that, they can cause cancer and all sorts of stuff. So it was sort of and what what can you explain about the blue?

SPEAKER_04 9:09

No, because they were putting toxic levels of copper in. Toxic levels of copper. To make it blue. To make the solution look blue.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

Because that sounds like a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Great idea. Right. So the people, then you've got an influencer opening the box, and you know, there it is, and it it's in a blue vial, and it looks like it's really going to make them. What's it meant to do, a peptide? Make you strong?

SPEAKER_04 9:33

I think it's and make you young. It depends on the it depends on the peptides. So some are meant to um help you regenerate after your workout, some are meant to help you I don't know, look amazing. Bulk up.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Bulk up. Yeah. So anyway, so it was it was it was very interesting, and we've been aware for quite a while that peptides are an absolute nightmare, and they're a scourge. Because as we know, they can cause a lot of damage, can't they? Well, unregulated growth in the body that you don't know what is going on.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Someone in a high luxe is trying to leave his parking spot.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

You go.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

We really are on the side of the street. Yes, we really are. Let's come to this, we're podcasting from the side of the street.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

Yeah, we really are. So put a little hat out for contributions.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

That's a good idea, right? That's a good idea. Yep. So that's that was that. And I guess more broadly, yeah, we're just anti-wellness. I'm just, we're just, you know.

SPEAKER_05 10:27

Well are they are they getting around that by being uh by selling it as supplements or are they prescription only?

SPEAKER_04 10:32

No, they're prescription only. And she so the lady that he was interviewing had an on um screen um medical appointment with so the she was on her she was on her phone, it was all audio, um, and she got prescribed a stack, a peptide stack, and but the prescription that she got, so her um her supplement and whatever didn't have a doctor's signature on it, but it had been it had been prescribed by this online doctor.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Online, yeah, an online doctor, yeah. And then he asked her a number of pointless questions. How old are you? Have you tried sleeping better? Yeah, have you are you exercising? Are you eating well? Da da da da da da da.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Well, those are all relevant questions for a doctor to ask.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

They are, they are. But to end up then prescribing a useless possible.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Well, it just sounded very performative. Um if you're just gonna. Can we just take a quick detour? Because I want to I want to discuss with the pod. I was at friend's house on Sunday and was meeting people that I'd never met before. And he had made this amazing brischetta, and it had all these lovely pieces of basil, and I went, I had an hours-long conversation with this lady I didn't know, and then I went to the bathroom and I had the most enormous piece of basil on one of my teeth, like, of all time. And I was like, holy shit, it is not okay to let somebody go through a conversation. The reason I bring it up is because you've got quite a lot of toast in your teeth. Excuse me while I rinse. Just rinse, but I but I just I just thought I would ask because nobody else is listening. Well, I thought I would just ask.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Everybody listening is actually they knew that Annie had to be able to do that. Checking their teeth, never bleaching my teeth.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

I came back and said to this lady, you can't let somebody talk for an hour with she just she said to me, just thought you had really bad decay on that, too. That's anyway. It's true. Is it is it better? It's much better, and I love you enough to tell you. Thank you, thank you. It is so true the embarrassment. Well, so embarrassing.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Everyone should carry a little mirror.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

We all we all do have little mirrors with us now on our phones, we do. I can't bear to look at it though.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

It's probably a bit vain though to keep pulling you.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

That was the bus.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

That was the 558 bus. Where does that go? It's very nice. Anyway, that was just a quick detour.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

No, I think it's I think it's highly relevant, don't you? So, um, Richard, over to you.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Hello. Hello. So yesterday I was in the the pharmacy, uh, as we often find ourselves in pharmacies for one reason or another.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Yes. And to get your TGA registered scientifically proven medicines. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:25

That's right. And for encroaching on your space, but the sun is burning. Yeah, move a lot.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

I then suddenly got boiling, so I've had to move away. Don't take it personally. I do like you. The day's moving on.

SPEAKER_05 13:36

I'm like moving in on her like an ice iceberg.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Like a glacier. You're in the chemist.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

I'm in the chemist. And to the side of the counter there, they had some disused boxes they get their supplies in. With, you know, when the acquis are all gone, they get rid of the boxes. Recycle, I guess. And this particular box happened to be from a company called Brouwer Natural Medicine. Brouwer.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

Brouwer make other things too, don't they?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

And how is Brouwer spelt? B-R-A-U-A-U-R-C-E-R. R I think so. Brouwer. You know, I've got it, I've got a picture of it. Not Bauer.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Oh, not Bauer. I'm confusing it. No, you're confusing Brouer with Bauer. I am, I am.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

B R A U E R. Bauer. Brouwer, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Brouwer. So it looks like Bauer. It does. Which is maybe a bit scar. It was actually scammy. It sucked me and I thought we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Right, right. But this company is based in South Australia and they pride uh primarily make homeopathic stuff. Lovely food. Which you can find in pharmacies. No, they don't make anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

They make water. So they make nothing.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

What got me about this packaging was I was just mindlessly looking at it, and there it says uh powered by black elderberry backed by science. Power let's repeat that. Powered by go. Black elderberry. Okay. Backed by science. Of course it is high science. Now I laughed out loud because I know this company for peddling sugar water and pretending it's medicine, and they've been doing it for years. So when I saw anything to do with this company and they're claiming it's backed by science made me really laugh. And it reminded me that, oh, maybe the best part of 20 years ago, the Australian skeptics gave their Ben Spoon award to the pharmacies of Australia who forget their morals long enough to sell quackery and homeopathy and things like that. And of course, that you can go into pharmacies now. Not every pharmacy.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

Most, I reckon. Most. Here is me sacking myself from every potential job I may ever apply for.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

It's true.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

And you can find acquiring myself in advance.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Call a duck a duck. You can find quackery in pharmacies, but that's how they have to make a lot of money, Kate.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Is it though, Richard, why can't they sell, why can't they be a wine bar? Why couldn't they sell standing ideas? Why could they not sell um gardening equipment like tools or uh I don't know, why could they not be a boutique fashion shop? Like why does it why does it have to be medicine really hurt somebody adjacent bullshit? Like it could be a cafe, couldn't it? It doesn't have to be all that rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Or the woo. You can also find, although I can't remember if that's oh that's a noisy pickup truck. I've I've also seen um, you know, the bracelets made out of copper, copper bracelets for arthritis. You can find it.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Or ear candles, I assume you ear candles. Yeah, I know. There's a whole there's a hole. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Even this last week I was in a pharmacy and they're on the shelf with ear candles. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

So I'm giving a person What actually is an ear candle? You stick it in your card.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

I should you not. I should you not. You stick it in your ear.

unknown 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:41

How rude. Well, don't, please, don't. No, don't. That's true. Please don't. Sorry, don't you? And you explain. Don't do it. Yeah. So it's a candle that people put in their ears. Yeah. And it's hollow, I think. And it's hollow. And you are supposed to set it on fire.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

The other end. And in your ear.

SPEAKER_05 16:57

Yeah, you know, the other way it ends up. And um, and it is supposed to draw out, I don't know what toxins. Toxin magic. I'm sorry, am I allowed to swear? No, you're allowed to swear. Okay. I'm not allowed to swear. You are allowed to swear. I am allowed to swear.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Well, it depends on whose podcasters will end up on. On hers you are, on hers probably. Or some other BS.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Some other BS. Anyway. So, but it it's supposed to do magic. And I'm not clear on the It's meant to have heard a bunch of things. Yeah. But I actually have at one of at a hairdresser that I used to go to in Atlanta, they were very proud that they were going to be able to offer ear candling. And I sent an email. I said, please don't do this. Thanks for it. It's a terrible idea. It can cause burns. It can cause injury to permanent injury to tympanic membranes. Please don't do this.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Can you explain temptanic membranes? Oh, I'm sorry, the eardrum. You can actually damage the. So you it sounds like you could look so it drips down, something drips into your ear. Yeah. Possibly. It's not meant to, but how do you get it out? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 17:55

Well, it's a long candle, and you're supposed to set it on in the uh the end that's outside the ear on fire. And you put it out before it approaches the skin, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

The first time I saw it was at a Mind Body Wallet, Mind Body Spirit Expo. Yeah. And I looked and I looked and I thought, this can't be, this can't be.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

And it's not. What are these people doing? It's something to do with pressure, isn't it? Like, well, that's their hypothesis.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

They claim it draws out stuff. Of course it does have stuff. But this particular set of ear candles I discovered just the other day, uh, Australian handcrafted ear candles intended to provide a sense of well-being and relaxation.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Intended to provide nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And on the back of the packet, in big letters, this is not a medical device. Well, bigger letters.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

Do not re-insert candle if for some reason it comes out of the ear canal. Oh, single use only. Oh, I see, they're worried about infection control. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Oh, that's a really interesting point thing for them to worry about. And there's just so much to your point, Dr. Angie, in the in the language. So the language is vague. But so soothing. So soothing. But but also to back to the peptide things, this idea of a stack, you know, then then then the notion of stack then evokes some sort of notion of being stacked and being ripped and better, and it's like all maxed, maxed. So it's very interesting the language that's used. And then of course our brains, uh the brains just suck that up. The human brain just loves that, right?

SPEAKER_06 19:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 19:26

Yeah, well, I was watching Four Corners last night thinking actually, I mean, it sounds pretty good, doesn't it? You can have something that helps you recover faster from the gym or make your skin more glowy or whatever. I'm telling you, the second they're TGA listed, I'm gonna be on them all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

For the benefit of listeners in Australia, of course, you can watch that episode of Four Corners on the ABC iView.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

It was really good. And if you want to watch Barnaby Joyce yelling at an imaginary dog, then watch the 730 report. My gosh, that's comedy.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Barnaby Joyce is a colourful politician in this country. Well, it sort of covers a lot of sins, doesn't it, to say they're colourful.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

He's a lot more polite than we would be.

SPEAKER_05 20:10

Yeah, yeah. So but back to your point, Richard. Like one of the things with the um elderberry is if you're if you're not cooking it, you can actually get uh diarrhea and um um abdominal pain and nausea and vomiting. So what's the point of elderberry, Dr. Angie? Well, if you want to induce nausea or vomiting or diarrhea, you can eat it raw. Lovely.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

But what what do you think they're using it for? What's it?

SPEAKER_05 20:34

Well, they're claiming that antioxidants are there, but you can get that anywhere, and too much antioxidants is actually not a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

No, and also what does that even mean? Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 20:44

A lot of people antioxidant mean. Well, especially oxidative stress on cells is what is believed to be responsible for aging. And to some extent, there is there is some truth to that, but but you do need oxidative functions because that's how your cells clean up.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

This is the product in question.

SPEAKER_05 21:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Uh Brouwer immune plus black L.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Well, we've spoken about boosting your immune disease.

SPEAKER_05 21:14

Yeah, don't let it boost. You don't want an autoimmune disease. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

But as I say, this is from the company who have been selling magic sugar pills for years and getting away with it, you know. In fact, I mean 20 or over 20 years ago. 2004, we had a convention here in Sydney, and I went out and I bought to the chemists and I bought a big packet of sleeping tablets from this company. And it's the classic thing where you open up the whole pack and leak the lot.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Oh. What? Yeah. Because oh, because they don't work. Oh, I see. Because they're lollies. Yeah, I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, they're candy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

Yeah. So what are they hoping for? Just placebo. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, sleep's a great one for placebo, because it's so ritualistic. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

There's a yeah. You you read the pack, it sends you off to sleep, apparently.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

I'm um I'm presenting at the The PSA conference at the end of this month, and um the PSA is our pharmaceutical society of Australia, and they have just released their new code of ethics. Uh uh. And I'm giving a plenary session on how unethical it is to sell things in pharmacies that you know doesn't work. So do you think I'm ever going to work in this country again? Never know, me neither.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Oh, I want to be there.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

I want to be there too.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I'll come along and I'll and I'll swallow bottles and bottles of sleeping tablets.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Or you could just be my um you could just be my my security, Richard, to help escort me off the stage so that I can make it back to my.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

I mean, I I we could say uh, you know, uh you could be talking on my friend Richard's here, he went into your and you bought your pharmacy and he bought sleeping tablets. Richard, come up. Hello. Oh yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

I like that a lot. Because there's absolutely no I I feel I feel quite um confident and and calm about it because What giving the talk? Yes, because what's the argument? You know phenylephrin doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

You know homeopathy doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

And if you know that it does if you give it IV. Yes, it does. That's right. So you know that oral phenolephrin doesn't work. You if you don't know that, then you shouldn't then you shouldn't be working. If you do know that, then you shouldn't be selling it.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

So where where do you sit on hang on? Explain the difference. So there's phenylephrin, which doesn't work.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

It doesn't work if you take it orally for a nasal decongestion. And and why is that? Well, because it just doesn't work. But it's not non-still, it's too metabolized. Yeah, it it the the medication does not work if you give it orally.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

You don't get enough of it absorbed and I think it's metabolized. I think it's metabolized away.

SPEAKER_05 23:41

Yeah. So it's got to go uh go through first pass metabol first pass through the liver and it metabolizes. But when you give it IV, we're giving it for blood pressure in that situation. So it does increase blood pressure if you give it IV.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

So we do it sometimes in ICU patients. So what does work in terms of nasal decongestion? Uh pseudophagrine. Which is it just sound they it's in my untrained ear, they sound very, very similar.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

They do, they do.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

If I went into a chemist, you could give either of those things to me, correct, except that I'd ring you or I'd ring you in America. That could be quite expensive to ask you the difference. But still I'll give it a shot. These days. Please tell me the difference between and that's the problem, is the languaging around it is really confusing. And I'm skeptical and I get confused, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Well, you you can video call for free these days, of course.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

I'll do that now. Every time I go into a chemist, wait for my call. Annie again. I work nights. You'll be saving somebody, right? You'll be doing CPR. Showing at me.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Whenever we're we uh Dr. Angie and a group of friends. Uh we play golf sometimes on the headsets. You know, we're all excuse me. We play uh virtual golf.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Oh, that's really cute. That is sort of cute.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

But we we say, okay, who you know, we've got a little group. Who wants to play? That's oh yeah, I can make it. Dr. Angie says, sorry, I'm fighting Darwin.

SPEAKER_05 25:08

Fighting Darwin.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Trying to keep people removing themselves from the gene pool. My um Instagram feed at the moment seems to be X-rays. Um, Emergency Department X-rays. God, they're brilliant. Love them so much.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

What what's I say all that again? I I'd split off. I was looking at that sign that said you're a rustica.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

This is a great one, and um what is it when the the vertebrae just slightly slide? It's called something. Subluxation? Yes. So he's standing in front of a Oh, just a car pressure. He's standing in front of No, no, no, it's a it's a radio radiologist, you know, and he's presenting this sli uh this scan, and so he's got it behind him on the light box, and he's saying, Have you noticed the slight subluxation between L, whatever, whatever? Oh, sorry, were you completely um we with your attention brought taken away by the enormous cucumber? Or you know. And he's like, Yes, this was a male patient.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

So subluxation is a real medical term? I thought it was a chiropractic term.

SPEAKER_05 26:01

Well, they've they've sort of uh been squishy about the definition of it for years and and uh have finally settled on it as a functional definition in the chiropractic literature, such as it is. But there is such a thing as subluxation in uh actual medical radiological literature.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Uh so they've just co-opted it. They co opt and misused it. And misused it. And you and it's now central to everything. Correct. So any condition that you have is because your subluxation has not been eradicated.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

No, but um, like if you felt that kind of sagging of your shoulder joint, like when it feels like it's gonna pop out all. And you sit up straight when you sit there. Yeah. Well, that's a subluxation, like if if you're Oh, it really is. Yeah, that's called a subluxation.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Richard, we've learned something today. Many things we've learned today. I always learn something. Look at me.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Oh, I'm a dog sook, according to my husband.

SPEAKER_06 26:57

Yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

I'm our friend uh Lara is uh big dog sook, I must say.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

She's a m she even forgives my dog, the black assassin, who sits in the dark and stares at me overnight, plotting my murder.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

She does. That's what the skeptics own cats do, actually.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

But uh Lara loves they're gonna eat your eyeballs first.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

They they will, yes. Squishy bits. Hello, what's this?

SPEAKER_05 27:23

Oh, anterior lithosis, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Funny.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Oh, it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Can you please send me that? Yeah, the CT.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Goodness me. But but yes, you're fighting Darwin quite often, Dr. Angie. In Ohio mostly, I think.

SPEAKER_05 27:41

Uh that's correct. I live in Atlanta, but I work in Ohio, even though that's a long way. I was gonna say, it's that far. It is a long way. If you drive, it's about a seven-hour drive with a fly. How often do you do that? Oh, about once a week or so. It depends on the situation. So, like I worked the first two weeks of July in order to be here for the next three weeks. Thank you for coming. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

So hang on, so hang on, you live where? In Atlanta, Georgia. And you have to go to Ohio. And I work in Cincinnati. So you have to fly because it's a seven-hour trip, you fly to work. That's right. How how often do you do that?

SPEAKER_05 28:17

About once a week, uh on average, but like I'll bank hours in the sense that I worked pretty much the first two weeks of July in order to come down here for three weeks.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

So so and this is a regular gig, so you this is and what what do you stay down there near the hospital?

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Um, I stay, well, I I work at a lot of hospital uh a hospital system in town, and so they'll move me between the different hospitals wherever they need. And where do you stay? I stay in a hotel. Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Do they have hospitals in Atlanta? You could have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

They do, and I worked there for a while, but um the uh situation in the uh emergency departments in Atlanta versus in other uh parts of the country. Um there are plenty of emergency docks in Atlanta. Right. And uh they needed me in Cincinnati and so that's where I work.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Right. And sometimes uh Dr. Angie is driving back from Cincinnati to Atlanta, and I'll get a uh a call, and she's saying, I need some trivia questions, keep me going. So she's driving along, and I'm I'm saying, okay, how many moons does you know?

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Well, that was act well it's it's pretty complicated. So I worked for the same company back uh before COVID, and uh since I'm part of the travel crew, they actually disbanded the travel crew because there just were not enough patients. Hospitals were closing, and so um emergency departments were closing. Um we didn't see the heart attacks that we had seen before, we didn't see the strokes. We don't know, were people dying at home? Yeah, they were either dying at home or just living through it and uh dying of COVID or not?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Maybe they were all taking homeopathy and got better. Got better.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Maybe they were buckets of tablets. Yeah. So how in your practice as being an emergency doctor, how much sort of woo do you come across of people saying, I don't want to take that because I'm on a special supplement or I don't want a vaccine? How much of that do you see when it comes down to emergency? I imagine that's different.

SPEAKER_05 30:20

Well, it is and it isn't. Um when people come to the emergency department, often they've tried those things and they didn't work. And I I there's always a little piece in my mind that says, you know, like, why did you come to me?

SPEAKER_06 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

Then if you believe if you don't believe what I have can work. But I I'll hear people say, you know, like I don't like pills, and I'm like, well, that's what I've got. So how can I help you? Yeah. So um, but I do have to shut that piece down in order to maintain my curiosity about about what the situation is so that I can hopefully help them.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

So some people have gone through the whole um alt-med wellness thing before they arrive to you and that nothing's worked. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Something very frustrating though, is it?

SPEAKER_05 31:08

It can be, it definitely can be. Um, and then there are others that I can sometimes reach. Like, for example, my one of my favorite examples was a patient that uh had a rash from their power band, and I explained to them. Unpack power band, please, Richard. Richard, why don't you tell us the story about the power band?

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Go no, not too quickly, you want to hear all the details.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

All right, around 2008, uh a company decided to basically swindle people by claiming that a plastic wristband with a little hologram in it, like credit card holograms, if you wore it, it would increase your balance, your strength, your flexibility, your blood pressure, you know, just vague sort of things.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah, it worked for me. It's why I'm so amazing today.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

And they would demonstrate it by doing what we call uh applied kinesiology body tests. In other words, people would put out their arm and they'd press down on the arm and you say, Oh, look, you see, you're you're you're sort of a bit weak.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

No, but you have to hold some butter or something when you're doing that. Is that that thing where you hold a raisin or butter?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

But what they'd do then is they'd say, now wear this wear this band, and they'd do the test again, and lo and behold, you could hold it, you could you could be strong. Now this is a trick. You you do this trick on people by applying different pressure and and uh understanding the center of gravity.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

So just for for people, because it is audio, um Richard had his arm out to the side, and what they do is they will press on the arm while you're holding something, or that and then your arm goes down, and then they put the bracelet on, and then they apply pressure on the arm in a different spot, you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

And uh in a different, subtly different way, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

And so then you can actually hold the arm straight and it doesn't collapse. And this is meant to indicate that the arm, that the band, the bracelet, is efficacious. But there's a whole stronger. Or whatever, or weaker. Without going to the gym.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

But there's a whole industry called applied kinesiology. It's a quack industry called applied kinesiology. We've looked at something online. We have where people run courses and they they're all there pushing patients' arms down and pretending to Well the Here's the thing. I think a lot of them really think it works.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Is that the guy flapping his thing around? Oh my god, that was your Saturday night.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Oh my god. Um Kate. You saw that video, yes. That's what my stomach is what I mean.

SPEAKER_05 33:37

Well, there was a in my defense, there was a hand gesture accompanying that comment.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

I don't think that makes it any better, does it?

SPEAKER_05 33:44

It was the only module pollution to draw.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Now the thing this guy was flapping around, it's called a biotensor. It's based on the same principle as water diving. It's a long s long wire with a springy bit on it, and you hold it and it wobbles a lot. Well, okay. Sorry, I've ruined it.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

She broke me flipped it. You flap it around, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

You flap it around, and owing to the to the exaggeration of the wobble, you can diagnose somebody's illnesses.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I've seen it. You know? You have seen it. It's a guy in the library. What?

SPEAKER_05 34:24

Or a bookshop, and he was flapping it around. I cannot. It's inappropriate help but think that Richard may have just invented a new form of woo. I reckon someone's already done it. No, you can't. Yeah, you're probably right about it.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Anyway, to get to get back to the basis, yes. So this company was selling these wristbands, doing these dodgy tests. And the flappy thing. And and I went on TV, and all I did was apply the Australian distributor to a double blind test. Yeah. And he failed six out of six tests. Yeah. And that began the ball rolling, the snowball rolling, which led to the the company going into liquidation.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Wow, good job, Richard. Uh good job. Big round of applause for Richard.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

And if people want to see that, um I'll add a link in this week's show notes. They can see me on TV in 2009 debunking his.

SPEAKER_04 35:16

But anyway, so sorry, back to Dr. Antie. So you're not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Well, that's perfectly relevant because I had that video available, and um this patient was absolutely convinced by this magic trick that these people had been doing and sold him a power band, but he was having a reaction to the plastic uh or the silicone, you know, whatever it was. He was ha he had a rash from it. And I was absolutely convinced it was due to this bracelet contacting his skin. And um he explained how convinced he had been by this demonstration. And I not only pulled up the video, but I demonstrated, I gave him my stethoscope to hold and demonstrated this trick that Richard had taught me. Oh, that's awesome. He took the band off and threw it away.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Oh, yay! No, oh, that makes me so happy. No, it made me happy too.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

One of the businesses that we were looking at a little while ago, I think they're based right here in this suburb, aren't they? One of the applied kinesiology um practices. I don't know. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Yes, I think that's right.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I think they are, yeah. And they advertise courses and you can pay a lot of money to protect, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Well, they were advertising it at the woo-woo fair, weren't they? For sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

At the woo-woo fair, yeah. Mind body wallet, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Yeah, it's like the woo-woo fair. It's the woo-woo fair.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

This is one thing I've done, Dr. Angie. I've introduced uh Kate and Annie to Mind Body Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Mind Body Wallet to get over it. I had to go and lie down outside or something.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

You've never been back. Well, I can't go near the bone.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

I've been, I don't know, just disturbs me emotionally. Because of that, it's like watching the thing on longevity last night on the 730 report. It's the it's the certainty in their voices when they're talking about the woo. And of course, we know that certainty circum um circumvents the critical thinking skills. We know that a certain somebody with that's certain and who's charismatic, the brain just shuts down and goes, Oh, that sounds great, because they're that's promising the world, right?

SPEAKER_05 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Yeah, yeah. And and when people, the general public go to Mind Body Wallet, they assume people behind all the stalls know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yes, and then they sound like they do. And I mean, it I'm at the point now where it seems to me irrelevant whether or not the person believes it or not. It's like irrelevant. It's still dangerous. It's just dangerous. Yeah, I don't care if you believe it. Get a grip on yourself and apply some critical thinking, you idiot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:39

You're not an emergency doctor.

SPEAKER_05 37:41

That is correct. You know, the other thing is how persistent they can be. So I was actually at a medical conference uh a couple of years ago, and someone was selling one of these, you know, pe peptide-based, you know, moisture, it was a moisture thing, but then they had this light therapy thing. Oh, the red red light thing? Yeah, something like that. Anyway, it didn't matter because I wouldn't talk to him. But he, every time I came into the because they were stationed right outside the conference room, they were a sponsor for the conference.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

But isn't that just illegal?

SPEAKER_05 38:12

No. Because they paid for it, huh? Well, they paid for a table to advertise. I mean, I think it's unethical.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, the bird's going nuts.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

Okay, I'll stop talking.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

She's yelling at me. She's um it's a self-a crystal cockatoo, and they make a noise, they go, fill up! Philip. They go, fill up. They do, you listen. Wait, he's not gonna do it now.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Okay, no, he's not.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Well, anyway, so they're outside the the venue.

SPEAKER_05 38:36

They're outside the venue, and every time I would try they try to come through, he would try to get me to come over to the table. And I I said no so many times. I wouldn't even listen to his spiel. I wasn't interested. Well, actually, that's not entirely true. I did read, I picked up one of the brochures, I read it, and it was nonsense, and so I put it back in. But he kept trying to chase me to get me to But that's interesting that they're trying to pitch that to doctors. Well, doctors are humans, just like everyone. I mean, it's not everyone that does the sort of research into the critical thinking. I mean, yes, we do have a little bit of extra. You got science degrees, huh?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:18

It just really confuses me. You're science-y. I also have colleagues who are into acupuncture. No! Yeah, I know it hearts it it's heartbreaking. But with it once you've done a science like not a lot of them, granted, not a lot of them, but there are some. It's a non-zero. I think it should be zero, but it should be zero.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

I think that cockatoo needs an acupuncture.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

It must be loud through your earphones, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Oh, very loud through the earphones.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

That's okay, it's it sets the scene.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I mean, this is a genuine on-the-street podcast recording.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

You can tell because of the bloody cockatoos. Like the the cockatoos, the cars, the trucks, people with dogs that keep distracting me. So thank you so much for tuning in to the Why Smart Women Skeptic Zone on the Moans Zone Combinatorial Combinatorial Podcast. Toast pod, toast pod. Oh, there we go. Oh, see that's good. And that's good. Goodbye from us, and goodbye. And goodbye from the cockatoos. And wherever you are in the world, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

We take you back to your regularly scheduled podcast.