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HOA Collections Explained

• Raymond Dickey

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HOA Collections Explained: Liens, Foreclosure, Bankruptcy, Payment Plans, and Board Collection Mistakes

Collecting assessments is not optional for HOA and condo boards. It is a fiduciary duty. But when collections are handled inconsistently or without the right legal process, associations can create serious risk, including selective enforcement claims, Fair Debt Collection issues, confidentiality problems, board liability, and unnecessary conflict with owners.

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/f_DW7pZFeMs

CAMICB CEU Video: Please register for CEU Video - “HOA Collections Explained” Apr 16, 2026 (1 hour video available all day) at:

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/5185089483040991574

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In this practical livestream recording, our panel breaks down how community association collections really work, including liens, foreclosure timelines, notice requirements, bankruptcy complications, payment plans, late fees, money judgments, suspension of privileges, and why written collection policies matter. The discussion also covers what boards can and cannot do when owners claim hardship, whether compassion can affect enforcement, how different states handle collection timelines, and why delaying action can damage association cash flow and increase legal exposure.

This is a must-watch for HOA board members, condo board members, community association managers, and anyone responsible for protecting association finances while enforcing governing documents fairly and consistently.

This recording is especially helpful if your community is dealing with delinquent owners, inconsistent enforcement, unpaid assessments, bankruptcy filings, lien questions, foreclosure concerns, or board uncertainty about how aggressive collections should be.

PANEL:

Raymond Dickey • www.AssociationHelpNow.com

Dawn Becker-Durnin, CIRMS • Acrisure • dbecker-durnin@acrisure.com • www.acrisure.com

David Byrne, Esq. • Ansell Grimm & Aaron, PC • dbyrne@ansell.law • www.ansell.law

Adam Clarkson, Esq. • Clarkson McAlonis & O’Connor, P.C. • aclarkson@cmolawpc.com • www.cmolawpc.com

Elliot M. Engstrom, Esq. • Sellers, Ayers, Dortch & Lyons, P.A • eengstrom@sellersayers.com • www.SellersAyers.com

Gregg V. Gerelli • Gerelli Insurance Agency, Inc. • gregg@gerelli-insurance.com • www.gerelli-insurance.com

Cory Kravit, Esq. • Kovitz Shifrin Nesbit • ckravit@ksnlaw.com • www.ksnlaw.com

John LaGumina, Esq. • The LaGumina Law Firm, PLLC • jlagumina@laguminalaw.com • www.laguminalaw.com

Hosted by AssociationHelpNow® | Practical insights for managers and boards who live this every day.

This content does not constitute professional advice.

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SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much for being here today. I'm Ray Dickey. I'm here for South Carolina, Hudson Valley CAI, and also Association Health Now. We are covering many states, and I appreciate you being here. Today we are going to do collecting outstanding dues. This is like the third time we've done this program. It's a I think it's a fantastic program. I think we cover just about everything. Before I go any further, we do the CEUs a little different now. Everyone has a question feature. You want to find that question feature and just type in CEUs because there's a good chance that there's going to be a recorded version of this available for CEUs. And maybe you're watching the recorded version. Today is uh March 18th, and you're also going to need during the recorded version to use your question feature and enter need CEUs. You're going to have to do that a couple more times because that's what I need to do for CMICB. I'm not king of the HOA world. I have to do what everybody wants. So I'm not Greg Jarelli. I'm not in charge of everything. That being said, let's have our panel introduce themselves with who I see first, and that's Greg.

SPEAKER_05

Good morning, everyone. Greg Girelli with Jarelli Insurance Agency. We're located in Cold Spring, New York, and we do insurance master policy programs for condos, co-ops, and townhomes throughout the Hudson Valley and surrounding Tri-State area.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you, audience. Yes, um, I love when people ask questions. Please ask questions, send comments. I don't use anyone's name, so feel free to ask away. Of course, don't send me anything too top secret because you never know I can make a mistake. Thanks for sending that, because I forgot to say that part. Uh, John.

SPEAKER_08

John Legumina from the Legumina Law Firm. We're in Parchance, New York, just outside of New York City. We represent condominiums, co-ops, HOAs from New York City throughout the Hudson Valley areas.

SPEAKER_03

All right. Uh Corey.

SPEAKER_01

Good morning, everyone. My name is Corey Kravit. I'm an attorney with KSN. Uh, we're located in Boca Rutone, Florida. We also have uh offices in Chicago, other parts of Illinois and uh Indiana. Full service community association law firm. I mean, uh, thank you for being letting me be here.

SPEAKER_03

You're so relaxed, Corey. And you're like your whole office, your whole office vibe is like so relaxed out of everybody on here. I just feel like you're gonna go out for a walk in the beautiful Florida weather soon, you know?

SPEAKER_01

It's raining, it's raining today, but I I worked outside for most of the day yesterday.

SPEAKER_03

I meant like John and Elliot and Dave, they look like they're in like they're possibly in prison. I don't even know where they are. Okay, uh, Elliot.

SPEAKER_06

Hey, my name is Elliot Ingstrom. I'm an attorney at Sellers Air Storage and Lions. We're located in Charlotte. But I actually do have a beautiful window here of the Charlotte Skyline, but if I turn my camera, you'll just see nothing. And uh we represent planned communities and condominiums located throughout North and South Carolina.

SPEAKER_02

All right, uh, Dave. Good morning, everybody. My name is Dave Byrne. I'm the chairperson on my law firm's community association, uh, associations practice and Selgrim and Aaron. And uh we represent uh condominiums, HOAs, and co-ops in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_03

All right. Uh Adam.

SPEAKER_07

Good morning, everyone. I'm Adam Clarkson, the founding shareholder of Clarkson, Macalonis, and O'Connor. Uh I'm a fellow of the College Community Association Larger CAI, and we service all South Carolina from our offices in Charleston, South Carolina. We provide deferred fee collection, construction defects, contingency fee, and general counsel services.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, somebody telling me that Corey's in Boca. Uh Dawn.

SPEAKER_00

Hi everyone. My name is Dawn Becker Drummond, and I'm a community risk management technique for CERMS. AkerSure is a national retail independent insurance brokerage, and we provide services for community associations as well as other types of businesses. But I'm the practice leader of the East Division and I also serve on the South Carolina Board of Directors.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So there's a lot to go over today, panel. So what I'll do is I'll do what we usually do and go through everybody. If you don't, you don't have to repeat what the previous person said. But by all means, if I go to the next question and you wanted to add something to the previous, please do. But I want to try to cover as much as we can. And I have a funny feeling there's going to be some differences today. So the first one I have is I have some questions. Oh, I got quite a few, but let me go through them. Do liens need to be re-recorded periodically? John.

SPEAKER_08

Um so the answer in New York is uh is yes and no. So um I I advise um updating them is what I refer to it as uh periodically. But when I say periodically, like annually, um, but there's pretty good case law out there that that that says a lien is a continuing lien and it does not need you don't need to literally flood the county clerk's office with um there would be like probably like millions of liens if if that was the case. So um it's kind of absurd if you think of it like every single month you're just gonna be doing just like hundreds of thousands of liens, um, and the county clerk's office would just be crushed with it. So you don't you don't need to do it every single month.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, Corey, same question, but also do liens expire in Florida they do.

SPEAKER_01

Uh for condos, they you need to foreclose on that lien within one year, otherwise it'll will expire. Uh HOAs, uh, you have you have a longer period, five years. Um, but it should never come, you know. If you're on top of your books and your collections, you should never worry about the liens expiring because you should be on top of them and foreclosing.

SPEAKER_06

Elliot. North Carolina, there's a statute on point that says liens expire after three years. We take the position that that means you have to initiate foreclosure action within that three years. In South Carolina, there's not a statute on point, but I always be careful to say just because I'm saying your lien doesn't expire, that doesn't mean your lien couldn't somehow be extinguished, right? So um you still want to be aware of what's going on on the property, but there's not a specific um expiration statute in South Carolina.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Do me a favor, Elliot. You do North Carolina today, and I'm gonna have Adam do South Carolina. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03

Uh, Dave.

SPEAKER_02

This is a good good example of how uh of how it really matters what state you're you're working with when it comes to liens and collections and these things. It really varies. Like in Pennsylvania, you don't have to record a lien at all. Uh this the amend the statute was amended years ago to make it that it's automatically a lien, which has taken a lot of collection lawyer work out of uh people that you know focus on Pennsylvania law. In New Jersey, liens do expire after a long, long time. Uh, and there's no there's no obligation to foreclose them anytime uh anytime soon.

SPEAKER_03

So, Adam, do liens need to be re-recorded periodically no in South Carolina they're good.

SPEAKER_07

If they're as long as you record them under seal, they're good for 20 years. And uh if you don't, then they're arguably good for five years. But if they expire, they expire. So it's not you don't magically resurrect them by re-recording them. But collection companies love to say that so that they can charge you again.

SPEAKER_03

So, Dawn, I heard in Florida, I think Corey said they're they expire in like a year. And if I heard Adam write, I think he said 20 years. Um it's amazing how things are what Adam?

SPEAKER_07

I was saying is it's just incredible, it's an anomaly, and uh, and as you know, I service in other states as well. And it's just I think it's something that everybody would like to see in their state, but also it's one of those things, it's a case law issue. So we don't it it's better to do, like Corey said, you want to keep them moving because you don't want to test that theory, uh, because you could be the association that ends up not able to collect their lead. So you don't want to have anything that's sitting there that over.

SPEAKER_03

It's so interesting, Dawn, isn't it? Like how much stuff varies from state to state. It's unbelievable. Okay, what kind of I'm gonna hit the questions first, audience, because they may cover some of the slides I have. What kind of notice does an attorney need to provide a property owner during or foreclosure action? I'll go the other way around. Adam.

SPEAKER_07

Uh so uh again, we get it's uh the Wa Wa West here in South Carolina. So you're gonna need to provide what other no whatever notices that you have placed in your governing documents, so your of course your CC and R's your bylaws, they're gonna dictate some of the preliminary notices. Uh so a lot of them are gonna be very similar to what you guys, what other some of the other folks are gonna have in their statutes, which is gonna be either regular or certified mail to the homeowner notifying lien and with a demand. Uh, they won't always have clarification like that. Sometimes it's gonna be in the collection policy. And then, of course, uh as you move forward, notably you're gonna have to serve them. You're gonna have to serve them just a civil complaint because South Cal and I uses judicial foreclosure, which means you've got to file with the court and you're gonna have to uh either personally serve them or serve them by publication if they can't be tracked out.

SPEAKER_02

Dave, how about your states? Well, I think Adam summed it up, and it uh applies to really everywhere I practice it generalized, you know, the your government governing documents may set forth notices that you have to follow before you foreclose. Uh and then in all all of the states uh where I practice, any complaint has to be personally served, unless you get leave of court, which you can get pretty easily. We do have in New Jersey some interesting quirk when it comes to liens. Uh a long time ago, um uh what we call our appellate judge, which is like one level below the Supreme Court, uh, ruled that um despite this being required by the the actual statute, every recorded lien had to be served on the owner within a reasonable time after it's recorded. But the service is not like sheriff service, it's like in the mail. So you can be you could have a problem if you can't you could have a problem for closing on a lien that you can't show you sent to the debtor within a reasonable time after it was recorded. Elliot, any differences?

SPEAKER_06

There's a few notices in North Carolina in the statutes you have to give without belaboring all those. I'd say the the big one in North Carolina is that before you file your claim of lien, you need to make sure you've sent the 15-day letter required by statute because that letter permits you to recover your attorney's fees and costs out of the foreclosure. Interesting. If you don't send that, don't send that letter, um, you might not be getting as much money as you think.

SPEAKER_01

Corey. Yeah, Florida's a little bit different. Uh Florida has statutorily has three prerequisite notices that need to be sent before we can file foreclosure. Um, there's the notice of late assessment letter, which is similar to what Elliot was talking about, where if that letter is not sent, um it's actually a 30-day notice. If it's not sent, then we cannot get our attorney's fees going forward. Um, then there's the intent to lean letter, the intent to foreclose letter. Those are both 45-day notices in Florida. Once the foreclosure is served, then all notices are done by email through the court system.

SPEAKER_03

We started with such complex questions in the beginning and answers, and they vary so much.

SPEAKER_08

John. Yeah, so it's it's pretty much in New York, it's like what Adam mentioned. It's follow your government documents, look at the notice clause. Um, and then if you are gonna bring a lawsuit to foreclose on the lien, or for a money judgment, you're gonna have to serve them with process. So there's specific ways to do that. Use usually you use a process server. Um those uh we don't New York doesn't have the 15-day statute that I heard. Um, but you you do do look at your governing documents for how notices need to be served.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And I got a lot of my information from uh CAI. They have a lot of great publications, best practices on collections. I think they have a lot of forums and policies, they just have about anything that you could need if you're a member of CAI. You can go on the national site. All right, let's hit some of these main topic points for I guess these would be um excuses. Um could a board accept this as an excuse? And then I'm also gonna ask the panel, should they? Um, so I come to John, I come to you, you're there with the board, and I have a medical issue and I I can't pay, I can't pay my bills, I can't pay the association. Is that a valid reason for a board to give somebody a break?

SPEAKER_08

Well, so in New York, there's pretty consistent case law that the obligation to pay common charges, um, first of all, it's independent from any claims you may have, but uh more importantly, it's considered absolute. So there's really no uh reason I can think of that uh even a medical condition would absolve you from your responsibility. And I don't um I don't think you would need to give a reasonable accommodation by simply not paying your common charges. So uh short answer is no.

SPEAKER_03

All right, well, let me do this then. So I this is about um ethical reasons that someone may have a legit reason that they can't pay and whether or not the board can accept it. The ones are medical issues, financial misfortune, plain compassion, and confidentiality, meaning like do you have to disclose, but maybe we'll save confidentiality for less. So I'm looking at medical issues, financial misfortune, and compassion. So I'm gonna go to the panel, add whatever you want to add. Um, Elliot, what are some reasons that can the board, in your view, give somebody an out based on these reasons?

SPEAKER_06

I would not recommend doing that. I always recommend the boards you want to get your lien on file because if people aren't paying their assessments, they're probably not paying other people too. And if you give them an out and there's a bankruptcy or something else happens and you don't have that lien, you're not protected. Whether to file the lien and whether to foreclose are two different questions. But I would not I would not recommend withhold holding off on the lien because of something like that.

SPEAKER_03

Dave, is there any reason that a board could forgive or give someone a break if they are behind in their dues based on a medical reason, financial misfortune, or just plain compassion?

SPEAKER_02

I don't think it's I don't even think it's negotiable. I mean, to me, it's a no-brainer. Everybody's got to pay. This doesn't matter why or what their situation is. Um I think I don't even think it's really debatable. Uh I think the the discretion comes in how you handle the balance once it's created. Whether you give people time to pay, whether you waive late fees, whether you though though I believe, in my view, uh boards have wide latitude in how the assessments are to be paid. But the idea that a person would not have to pay, that's not even on the table for discussion, frankly. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

So Adam, I go to the board. I horribly lost both my legs in an accident, and I just don't have the money to pay the board. Does the board have the ability to say, you know what, we're gonna give you a break because of that?

SPEAKER_07

David just answered that question. So I agree with David, Elliot, and John. They've already covered all the details of this. I mean, there's really nothing, it doesn't in all scenarios, it's gonna be the same situation. I mean, there's if if folks run out of uh you know, hardships or hardships, if folks run into a situation where they can't arrange it, it's not gonna cure itself. And generally uh as a practical matter, homeowners should ideally put this ahead of things because this is basically this is the equivalent of paying for water and power and insurance. I mean, this is something that should be a an early pay, but folks like to kick it down the road. They like to think of it as something they can get away with not paying, you know, because they'll call, they'll show up, they'll ask for uh you know a reduction, they'll show up in their Mercedes and with the brand new brand new iPhone and ask for a reduction uh while they're paying for all their other comforts and things, and they're not and they're not paying this, and basically shifting that obligation onto the rest of the their neighbors because when the association doesn't collect it, it does shift to the rest of the community. So there's really just not a concept, and as uh you know as they was just pointing out, there's really not discretion to waive it, and so it's really just a movement of it's a it's a matter of when. So certainly true the extracurrent, they could they could delay and they could get you in a payment plan, they could coordinate a method for you to figure out how you're going to handle that, but they wouldn't be in a position to wave anything.

SPEAKER_03

So, Corey, this is I would imagine this is a hard one for boards, right? Because someone's lived there for 20 years, everybody's friends, maybe they have a legitimate reason. Something, something happened, somebody passed away. But everyone else, from what I've heard, has said, no, you know, you can't afford to be compassionate as a board in regard to this issue. Uh, I guess what I'm hearing, Corey, is you have to move on with the process, no matter what their personal circumstances are.

SPEAKER_01

Corey, is that true or false? No, it's true. And and Dave and Adam nailed it on the head in their analysis. And I would just reiterate, you know, the compassion can come in in terms of waiving a late fee, uh, waiving interest, doing a payment plan over a month or two, um, you know, for for things to work out. But the obligation of the assessment itself, uh, like like Adam and Dave said, is not negotiable.

SPEAKER_03

Don, where are we with insurance? Are we anywhere with insurance right now?

SPEAKER_00

You know, it it depends. It's gonna really depend if the owner who has the lien that's being enforced against them or pre-foreclosure asserts a counterclaim or a cross claim against the association. And that's what we see a lot because they don't want to pay. And so there's the well, you didn't fix this and you didn't do this, and you didn't do that, and that's why I didn't pay.

SPEAKER_03

So, Greg, I think what I'm hearing the panel saying, panel, jump in if I'm not. The board has a duty. The board has a duty. They this is something that they have to do. If they don't do it, is this going to affect their insurance coverage, Greg?

SPEAKER_05

No, the board, um, sorry, all the attorneys answered this very, very well. Um, what we see is what Dawn alluded to is counterclaims and things outside it. You have a unit owner who has some hardship and they can't make their payments and they're looking for other ways. This is where you need to follow your attorneys, follow your rules, be consistent on how you're following anything, because we see a lot of discrimination claims. As Dawn said, you know, failure of services and all these other items come out of it to distract from the I didn't pay my common charge part of things, and for them to hopefully win some money because they need money in order to pay these charges. So that's where we see the insurance claims come in. Um, as far as delinquencies, insurance companies do look at the financial reports when we're writing and placing business and on renewal, and they do want to see a certain level of unit owners that are current with their payments versus in arrears. Because again, you end up with an association with a lot of unit owners in arrears that could potentially lead to more claims in the insurance carrier's eyes.

SPEAKER_03

So let's go hit some questions here. John, what if a board does not want to file liens and they believe that the judgments are more effective? Does the board how much flexibility does a board have?

SPEAKER_08

Well, I mean, boards have a lot of flexibility in in deciding to pursue collections and and but um as as an attorney advising a board, um you know, first of all, liens uh liens are way cheaper, right? You just file them. Why would you go to you know, a judgment is you have to bring a lawsuit and win. Um and then a judgment is uh is it could constitute a lien if you docket it correctly. So you could already could easily do that. I've done that with a lien. So I mean there's different measures, but you really need to for for every situation is there's a variety of things you could do, and you you know, your attorney can give you advice of what what your options are, and then it's up to the board to decide on what those options are.

SPEAKER_03

Uh many people commenting in regard a couple times back whether or not people could pay. Um we're all on a fixed income, everybody has a budget. Um, there's a lot of comments in that regard that look, everybody's everybody's got it tough, so everybody's got to basically pay up and do their share, which is I think exactly what the panel was saying. Uh Dave, doesn't the business judgment rule require boards to take emotions out of the equation for collections? Emotions I don't know that the business judgment.

SPEAKER_02

I I it depends. I mean, I I don't know a business judgment rule would just require you not to operate in bad faith, you know, or or commit any fraud. I mean, emotion is I don't know that it's necessary a bad thing. I mean, I guess it depends on how you define it, but I assume emotion would be relevant to uh the type of consideration you would give to someone who needs help and time to pay. I don't know, it's actually a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03

It's a hard question. It's a really good question. Doesn't the business judgment rule require boards to take emotions out of the equation for collections? Uh Adam.

SPEAKER_07

I mean, you're just you're having me keep going after David, David. He's covering it all. I mean, yes, I mean he's already covered it.

SPEAKER_03

All right, let me hit you with this one. How to get around a unit owner that has had multiple bankruptcies with discharges costing the association over 30,000. Anything the board can do to protect the association. Adam.

SPEAKER_07

Well, I mean, there's only so many. I mean, after uh you can't just keep going. So it says multiple, but I mean you can't keep going the well. So there's really not that many that are in there. Uh, you've got to secure your interest, so you need to you want to make sure that you get your lien in place. Um, you know, Elliot touched on that earlier with making sure that you get your lien in place before they do file the bankruptcy, that way you have a secured interest. Um, depending on what's happening, the lien could be crammed down and pushed off of the foreclosure. So you can, of course, uh be in more in more junior position. But the key is, as Corey pointed out earlier, is to move the collection process along the line. I mean, if you because you want to be ahead of everyone, if you're not moving along the line, if you're passively addressing collections, you're going to get wiped out. You're going to be the per you're going to be the folks that come in, you're going to put the bank track of them in, and they're already accumulating a bunch of debts, and they're going to you're going to be at the end of the line. So that's why you want to aggressively go after collections and keep it moving forward. And when I say aggressively, I mean just on a reasonable basis, in line with this with the governing documents, in line with you know a reasonable process of getting things through and moving forward. I mean don't just sit on it. The folks that just sit on it are the ones that are going to lose their claims.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So let's let's jump into this, uh, Corey. I'll start with you. Um, bankruptcies, the Fair Debt Collections Practice Act, and get in line. I think they're kind of all related. I don't know if you agree or not, Corey. Can you cover those?

SPEAKER_01

Um totally. They're not they're they're not really related. Obviously, bankruptcies are federal law. Fair Debt Collections Practices Act is also federal law. Um, but that that that basically regulates how um us as debt collectors um can go about collecting the debt. Um and if if we do it wrong, there's penalties um for that. Um and uh I don't know what you mean by getting in line, but the the I guess priority of liens, perhaps. But the you know, the whole key that you should get out of this, you don't have to worry about bankruptcy. You don't have to worry about these things as long as you're on top of your collections. There shouldn't be a situation if you're doing things right, there shouldn't be a situation where someone's more than maybe two months or one or two quarters um late in their assessments. It's a hell of a lot easier for us to collect, you know, one month or two months of assessments, or one quarter or two quarters of assessments than it is, you know, four years. Um and it's it's one of those things where we'll come into a community that has you know on the verge of bankruptcy because they haven't been doing their collections, we clean them up and and you know, and and then it's just staying on top of it and you and you never get in that position again.

SPEAKER_03

So, Elliot, here's why I think that they were related. Okay. If someone's in bankruptcy and you contact them, you're a foul of the Fair Debt Collections Practice Act. You can answer that in a second. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. And then the thing with bankruptcies, too, I wanted to talk about Adam talked about it. You want to get in line, right? When when someone files for bankruptcy. So if you could just kind of run with that or just tell me that they're not even related, it doesn't matter, but if you could cover those three things, I'd appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06

I think of contacting someone in bankruptcy and trying to collect from them, what my mind goes to is violating the stay that is put in place by the federal court at the beginning of the bankruptcy that says, in in better words than this, leave these people alone because they're in bankruptcy. It's possible there's a provision of the FDCPA that says you can't try to contact somebody in bankruptcy. I'm not sure about that. But really, what I think about is the stay that as soon as they file bankruptcy, you can't try to go after them for debts until the bankruptcy matter is resolved.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, so they're unrelated. Corey, thanks. Um, John, their debt collections practice act. What is it? And what should boards and managers be concerned about running a falibut?

SPEAKER_08

Yes, it's a federal statute. You have to give, um, I'll just try to look like really quickly summarize it. You have to give uh a notice, really, really like when you send a demand letter out, you put language at the bottom of it, given the the um unit owner 30 days to request verification of the debt. Um there's a little bit more to it than that, but that that's essentially what it is. And then uh it doesn't mean you can't proceed and collect, it just means you have to put this notice in. If you don't do it, you're it's just like a like what violating the bankruptcy state we just mentioned. If you don't do it, it's strict liability, which means um you're if if the unit you know pursues it, you're gonna have to pay some damages. There's no way even if it's in inadvertent, that's not an excuse.

SPEAKER_03

Well, Greg, let's say I run a foul of it. I don't pay attention, I don't go to an attorney. Um, I try to handle it on my own. And uh I have to pay. I'm liable. But I could just go to you, right? And have the insurance pay for my fines and get me out of this mess.

SPEAKER_05

No, general insurance company is not gonna pay for that type of a fine for violating an order like that.

SPEAKER_03

So this would be a pretty serious issue uh for people to pay attention to, correct, Dave?

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh just to I think to have to clear up a little bit of confusion. Um the FDCPA applies only to debt collectors. So the fine and penalty would be would attach to the lawyers in this particular instance, not to the actual association, at least in my mind. I mean, in my mind, the association is a first-party debt collector. It's if you loan five bucks to your brother and and you write him a letter, ask him to pay you back, you're not a debt collector. You're you're trying to collect your own debt. But if you hire a lawyer to get the five bucks back from your brother that he's a debt collector, that law applies. There may be other debt collection laws that apply to the client directly, uh, but the FDCPA applies to lawyers. Um, so that's what we really have to be careful of. I I find that we have to be careful of just we have to be careful to not just automatically trust the accountings and numbers we see. We have an obligation, in my view, to dig in a little bit. Like you can't just send a collection letter based on a total number you see. You really, in my view, have to look at the accounting to make sure it's not wacky charges and stuff. The other thing that's an interesting issue right now are whether management companies are considered debt collectors. There's a lot of case law across the country. It varies from circuit to circuit, which is a federal court term. Uh, and management companies have to be careful as to what they do, what they don't do. There's a lot of varieties. I don't have the time to talk about it now, but it's something managed management companies have to be careful about. Not direct employees that are doing letters, but I'm talking about management companies who begin to engage in um what could be seen as collection activity.

SPEAKER_03

I thought we were talking about that like three years ago, and they're still trying to figure that out all over the place. I know that came up quite quite a while ago about the uh management companies. All right, so I get this one all the time, Adam, or we get it all the time. Or it's get angry, they get upset. I mean, they have somebody there, they don't deserve any compassion, right? They just don't want to pay their bills. They've lied to the association many, many times. They're a horrible neighbor. Just everything about them is just terrible. And the board wants to let everybody know. They wanna, they wanna, we wanna let everybody know who this person is and what they owe. Why don't you summarize that for me? And I'm gonna go to everybody because this could vary. Maybe it doesn't, Adam. Can boards do that?

SPEAKER_07

Uh, I don't think this is gonna vary, but uh no, boards cannot do that. Um, shaming people uh with respect to the collections isn't permitted because it's confidential information, the fact that they're delinquent as to the association. So uh in general, you're not gonna be able to do anything about that or say anything about that. You're not gonna be able to divulge how far delinquent they are, uh, you know, that they sent you a nasty letter and why they're claiming they can't pay or anything like that, because again, it's all gonna be complex information. I mean, in general, rule of thumb, if it relates to any individual unit owner, it's information that other owners aren't gonna have a right to review and see. So uh in general, you're not gonna be able to do that. You can't post a list of folks that are delinquent, um, things like that. So, in general, you wouldn't be able to do that to an extent, there's a there's a reasonable argument that you could at a to the extent your board meetings, if your homeowners have a right to attend or the board is permitting them to attend, because in South Carolina there's not a right to attend, but some some governing documents give it, and then a lot of the boards will allow it. Uh if you have updates on active litigation, then arguably you could have a generalized disclosure. Explaining we have these five these five cases, these in each case is a collection delay case, and here's the name of the case. That's about as far as you probably could go. You couldn't get in much further without violating compensationality and other information.

SPEAKER_03

So, Dawn, um, you know, we we've spoken about this one a lot over a lot of different live streams, but I'm gonna go to the entire panel on this. Overwhelmingly, I've never done one of these and ever had an attorney ever say, try to shame someone. By far, they're like, don't try to be tricky with it, don't ever do it. But I'm gonna go to the panel because there are some tricky ways to do it, even though every attorney in the world is gonna tell you not to. But this is something in its insurance rep you don't want to hear about, correct?

SPEAKER_00

No. You know, we really want everything to be happy and harmonious.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So let me go through the attorneys really, really quick. Dave, is there any way you can because some boards, man, they are so intent on wanting to shame someone.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know, maybe I'll be in the minority here, but uh uh well, let me say it this way. I don't think there's any scenario whereby a board could shame someone. Uh so I'll say that first. But my view uh that the delinquency lists and accounting records are absolutely not confidential. In fact, in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, owners have an absolute right to see them. Uh so uh it would probably be a breach of fiduciary duty to refuse to show that information. God help the clients and the management companies, they have to make sure they're right because wrong information will trigger some of the stuff Adam was concerned about. But owners have a right to absolutely see this information. When clients ask me whether or not the information can be published, I say yes because owners have a right to the information, but it all comes down to purpose. I don't want, I don't think, you know, um when I was in college and we didn't have enough money in the social chair uh treasury for a party in my fraternity, my buddy would put a list on the board and says, because these idiots we don't we can't have a party, and then by five o'clock they would pay. That I think would be a breach of fiduciary duty. But putting the information forward to owners, hey, by the way, you're paying an assessment of this amount because we pay the landscaper this much, because we pay insurance this much. Oh, and a couple of these people have are having trouble paying. But posting the information itself, I don't believe to be a problem.

SPEAKER_03

So, Elliot, same question, and I I'm batting the zero, I'm batting zero with you guys today, by the way. I'm not even close. And I'm gonna throw in potential selective enforcement on this also. I don't I I give up trying to guess if it ties in, Don. It's a rough, it's a it's a rough group today. But Elliot, if you could run with the confidentiality, what you think about that, and also selective enforcement.

SPEAKER_06

I mean, I I generally wouldn't recommend if you're pursuing collection actions against an owner, give you know, try to shame that owner, tell everybody in the condo that they're delinquent, that kind of thing. And in my experience, that usually doesn't come up in the board trying to shame the owner, it usually comes up in that owner blasting the Facebook page in the listserv talking about how the board are criminals and the board wants to respond, right? And you got to be careful to the board to say, whoa, like we're responsible for what we say, even if this person's not, right? So, so um, I do think the board has confidentiality obligations in in in North Carolina in the context of delinquencies. Um, as to selective enforcement, I think where that would be selective enforcement's more of a claim that would be made against the board. I think where that would come up is we go after some people and we don't go after other people. And yeah, I mean, I can see that being a selective enforcement claim, could also be a fair housing issue, right? If we're we're only collecting from people of one race or you know something like that. So they are, I was I will say this, Ray. On that, I do think that selective enforcement is a little bit related to um collections and that you want to be consistent and treat everybody the same way.

SPEAKER_03

Corey, this is a very emotional issue for boards. I think Elliot hit it right exactly right, because um somebody's slamming the board on Facebook how horrible the association is, and then the board can't tell anybody that they haven't paid their dues for the last year and a half. Um Corey, commentary.

SPEAKER_01

I it's just unnecessary waste of energy, in my opinion. Um, hire the big guns, have us go after the delinquencies. And your job as a board member is to go to the meetings and vote on issues, not to get entangled in the drama of the community, um, which is a waste of time and why people don't want to serve on boards. So um I I you know the procedures are pretty, you know, it's it's black or white. There's no, you know, I I and in Florida, selective enforcement's not a claim, it's a defense. So, you know, it'd be a defense to a claim the association is bringing against them. Um so you know, you follow your procedures, and the procedures are very efficient, especially in Florida. Uh it's black or white. You either pay or you don't pay. If you don't pay, you lose your house to foreclosure. Um, so any of the drama or you know, and in Florida, there's no the the financials are not confidential either. Um, so I would recommend against you know putting a delinquency list on the clubhouse wall um and just just just follow just follow the procedures that are in place and it will fix itself.

SPEAKER_03

Now, John, you have the opposite problem. You have multiple homes and multiple countries, and you're trying to like you want to tone down how incredibly wealthy you are. But in regard to New York, um, yeah, I'm frustrated. This guy's out here slamming us and he owes a bunch of money. Can we tell anybody? We can't hear you.

SPEAKER_08

I'm like Dave, I'm a little bit in a minority on this. I I so there's so the issue is there an expectation of privacy, and it in the other consideration is I'm sorry, is there a reasonable expectation of privacy? And then the other issue is unit owners have the right to know how their common charges are being spent. Um so um I you know if it if it's egregious, my advice for a client that really, really wants to publish it is you better be you do not put a specific amount in, make sure they didn't file bankruptcy or on a payment plan, and then just say make it like a the following units are substantially behind any of your common charges. Um you know, best practices as we've all mentioned, is not to have to do it, but you know, you you did mention, Ray, that some boards just insist on it. And if you you know it's not it's not it's not an absolute violation of any uh condominium law, it's just whether there's a an invasion of their rights to privacy.

SPEAKER_03

That brings me back to the potential selective enforcement. That makes me nervous though, because if you do it for this person, theoretically, maybe you have to have a policy and do it for everyone. And I know you don't really have to, but it seems like you're setting yourself up here for a possible lawsuit, um, especially if they're a protected class or there's some kind of circumstances. Do you disagree, John?

SPEAKER_08

Well, that's why when I met the advice I says the following units are significantly behind and don't limit it just to one person you don't like. Anyone over whatever the threshold is should be included in that.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. If you're here for seeing let me just chime in, right. I think I think I that's why uh if you just publish, if you like John said, if you're if a client is on you to do it, I mean you you know, you you you gotta give them, you gotta be a lawyer and give them ways to do stuff they want to do without running into trouble. But publishing the actual financial data as it exists without any uh commentary or drama to it is you know, it's it's pretty pretty plain that you're just publishing financial information. And that's what it that's what it is. You you know, and you keep it keep it non-sexy, and hopefully that would minimize your exposure.

SPEAKER_03

Non-sexy.

SPEAKER_08

I don't think that would be. Right. Just to add also, if you're if if these people owe a lot of money, you're probably suing them. And the lawsuit is public information anyway.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Good point. Right. Then you go back to Adam's advice where you could theoretically bring up some kind of litigation or something. Adam, did I get that right or was I wrong? Okay. Adam loves when I quote him. He absolutely quite whether you quote him correctly or incorrectly. He loves full confidence in me. Don, I feel bad we don't have a lot of insurance stuff. Can you do my CEU? Oh, wait a minute. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. CEUs. If you need, I have to do this part. If you need CEUs, use your question feature right now and put in CEU. I need CEUs. Ray, you're great. I need CEUs. As long as it says you need CEUs in there, go ahead and put it in there right now. Okay, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so let's so I talk a lot about DNO not covering bodily injury or property damage. Property damage can also be a um, I'm not gonna say this word properly, a devaluation, dimin, you know the word, lowering the value of your homes. It just can't get it out. The other aspect is Yeah, yes, it's hard. And then the other aspect is invasion of privacy. We talked about that. That's gonna be a DNO claim. Most like most insurance policies may or may not cover it. Check your policy, and then defamation. But let's talk about some of the other nuances. And Greg, I'm probably gonna ask you to highlight this more, but foreclosure exclusions, specific matter exclusions, and then, of course, we get into individual exclusions where we name people or directors. And then, of course, the accounting and taxes, as Greg pointed out, are not covered.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So, Greg, Dawn is saying there's all these things that involve collections that you're not going to get covered for, that you may think that you're covered for and you're not. So, can you mention a couple of the other ones?

SPEAKER_05

Correct. I mean, if everybody's watching this, Dawn and I both perked up as this conversation rolled down, because this is a very fine line to be treading here, where you're in a retaliation standpoint where you're trying to go tit for tat, if you're trying to shame someone on this. And on many of the instances, like Dawn just mentioned a few, there could not be coverage when you're looking back to your insurance company that we ended up down this rabbit hole. Um, and we're in an area where the insurance company is not going to pick that up. So you really want to understand your DNO coverages. She highlighted a few very good ones.

SPEAKER_03

Dawn does love insurance. There's no doubt about it. Okay, let me hit some of the questions here. There's a lot of them here. What about if they uh fail to pay current dues? Can we get it released to move forward? Dave.

SPEAKER_02

Um the power just went out. Uh well, at least we had a heads up with it. Yeah, so I'm in I'm in the office, but we're we just had a power outage. I don't know. Maybe uh got a missile strike here or something, but nothing's happening. All right. Did you hear the question? You want to answer it?

SPEAKER_03

You're you're you're still here. Oh, the you can move on to one of the other guys. They're smarter anyway. Dave's all he's all he's all misconstrued now. He doesn't know what's going on. He wants to know what's going on. He probably okay, Adam. What about if they fail to pay current dues? Can we get it released to move forward? Can you explain what the question means? Because I don't understand.

SPEAKER_07

I think what they meant to say, I think they're talking about the automatic bankruptcy stay and whether or not the stay can be lifted. Stay is lifted, is what the is the term is. And yes, you can get a lift to stay to move forward with collections in the event that they're not paying the post-petition debt, meaning that they're not paying after they filed for bankruptcy and they don't pay the incoming new debt, they that you can come back and get a lift to stay and move forward. Now, the reality is financially, does it make sense? In most associations, it does not. If your assessments are less than probably$400 a month, uh, it probably doesn't make sense to toy with that because you're talking about spending a few. thousand dollars to get a lift of stay to move forward collections. Um so you're probably not gonna it's probably not gonna have value to you but if you're if you're in a high rise and you've got a thousand dollars or more a month assessments it it probably will make sense but again you're gonna be spending a few grand to get that lift of stay assuming and that's that's assuming you even get it you may spend a few grand and not get the lift of stay the the bankruptcy court may deny it but if they're not making the payments and whatnot then that there is an ability to do that. That's an option.

SPEAKER_03

Corey if you are and by the way panel jump back if if you want to Corey if you are budgeting significant bad debt expense in subsequent years for doubtful accounts and the funds become collectible do the owners in good standing have any claim to the recovered funds I mean they can ask for it but generally the board has discretion of what to do with those funds.

SPEAKER_01

If I'm preparing a budget I would not budget for bad debt or or expected bad debt because like I said before the board shouldn't be uh letting you know letting letting the delinquent payments sit on the books. So I I would avoid the whole situation you know completely just by going after the delinquencies in a in a timely manner.

SPEAKER_06

Elliot what are the requirements for an owner to remain current going forward after the bankruptcy has been filed do you have recourse if they continue to fail to pay after the bankruptcy I think that so I don't practice bankruptcy law so I have to be careful I pass those off to other people but my understanding is that that involves going to the bankruptcy court and saying they're they're not using this process right or they're not paying what you've said they're supposed to pay and goes back to the lifting of the stay but uh without the if you without the stay being lifted or being included in the bankruptcy plan I'd be nervous to try to go go near that.

SPEAKER_03

Okay I have to go to the panel on this one but the next question I love I love this question it comes up every time I can't wait to ask it but taking a step back very quickly Adam anything different to say about that than Elliot said you just asked Elliot the same question you asked me but you put it a different it was just you different words.

SPEAKER_07

But the obligation is that after they file after they file after they file the debt after they file for bankruptcy they are supposed to be making payments of the upcoming debts and then the process is exactly what I explained earlier.

SPEAKER_02

So it's just yeah but so we're and and Elliot and I said the same thing basically okay I thought Elliot was a lot more glamorous when he said it a lot more sophisticated but that's he was more glamorous but he's a lot a lot nicer about it maybe okay I mean not nicer to you maybe Elliot is very nice to me thank you Elliot thank you very much okay um here anybody want to add any commentary to that okay I've just I'll I'll just add one thing which is that when when someone files a bankruptcy especially chapter 13 I think management companies often make a mistake of not segregating and separating the accounts we find that to be a big problem so if if the person files chapter 13 the management company and the association should still be sending regular statements to get paid post petition like Adam I think just mentioned but that statement can't have on it the amount of money that was covered by the bankruptcy otherwise it's technically a violation and John mentioned earlier like sanctions for that. That's a really important thing okay here's the question that I love it comes up all the time I always get different answers I'm so happy that somebody asked it can a board Dave can a board remove parking privileges for unit owners that are behind on their association dues well I yes the answer is yes both in Pennsylvania and New Jersey the statute specifically authorized that um in um Pennsylvania it's very easy to do meaning all the guy if the person is delinquent and the parking is common element it's it's pretty much um it goes without challenge. In New Jersey you have to provide some additional notices make ADR available and that sort of thing but generally speaking if parking is common element uh and um absence some crazy provision in your governing documents in New Jersey and Pennsylvania it's it's definitely a definitely a doable thing.

SPEAKER_06

Elliot let me let me re-ass the question because I may want to use it as short that's why I like to re-ass the question Elliot can a board remove parking privileges to unit owners that are behind in their dues in North Carolina yes that what you're referring to is suspension of privileges you have to use what's called a notice and hearing process that is laid out by statute. Of course the statutes of North Carolina say unless the governing documents say something else so you need to know what your governing documents say. But the general answer is yes as long as you follow the proper process.

SPEAKER_08

John can an association take away someone's parking if they are behind in their dues uh in New York it's only if it's in your governing documents so for in most cases the con if it's condominium and so the answer would be no because they don't have a suspension of privileges provision. Most HOAs do have a suspension of privileges provision but you have to look at it because sometimes they'll they'll limit it to just like voting um so in and many times it's just silent. So you just have to definitely look at it.

SPEAKER_07

Adam in South Carolina can an association take away your parking if you owe the association money and it's late it's gonna similar what John said it's gonna depend on your governing documents and uh you know and most governing documents aren't going to provide for that most of them aren't going to allow that that's usually not something that's contemplated by the document so you probably most associations won't have the power to do that. It's pretty rare to see something like that in there because usually that's not even contemplated by the original declarant. And then the other thing is a better question is not can you but should you should you know you shouldn't not unless you think you look really great on the five o'clock news and you like to be a villain in the eyes of everyone that can see uh the radius of whatever it is box five or channel two or whatever you're gonna be whatever range you're gonna be in because um uh eventually it's gonna go south you're gonna it's gonna it's gonna be a bad look and you're gonna be the person that gets our new statute on why we can't on restricting other things in community associations because of that situation so it's not a great it's not a great idea even if you could theoretically do it.

SPEAKER_03

Corey I saved Florida for last because I feel like in some ways you could do whatever you want in Florida you can blow people's cars up you could turn them upside down.

SPEAKER_01

I meant what could you do in Florida if someone is behind their dues and you take their parking away I I think parking is probably not something that would be taken away just because the way it's set up generally but more commonly what they'll do is they'll dis they'll disconnect your barcode or clicker for the security gates and force you to go through the guest access. And and that's usually a pain in the butt because the line for guest um you know guest access is usually a lot longer than just cruising through the resident link. And that that actually gets people to pay pretty efficiently additionally that the asso the association can suspend the common area use rights which means can't go to the pool can't go to the clubhouse if you don't pay. So that that's that's some of the enforcement tech um mechanisms in Florida parking's not really um an issue because people will you know in HOAs they'll park in their driveways that's that's theirs um and in condos sometimes the the parking spaces are deeded uh so you you wouldn't be able to suspend that okay let's move quickly because we want to do closing thoughts small claims court john should associations just do it on their own they're always looking to save a buck they can they can try um should they it depends how well they do it but um no you know I don't have a problem with my clients trying it Corey should they in Florida I don't believe they're allowed to I think corporations in Florida require to be represented by an attorney so they wouldn't be able to Elliot should they send in an attorney um but uh can a can a can an entity try it on their own I guess I guess they could try but but um I I would recommend having an attorney do that and also I think one thing you have to look at is depending on the amount of money do you refer to DNO or not?

SPEAKER_06

That's a separate question.

SPEAKER_02

Dave should they well in Pennsylvania it's not really an option there's uh different types of court systems and the like and you could you have to combine your foreclosure with your money judgment action and that requires a lawyer so it's more complicated. But in when it comes to New Jersey I agree with John I think that um I've often told clients this there's no obligation to use a lawyer uh if you want to bring a claim against an owner for I think it's less than 3500 now or five grand maybe maybe 3500 no obligation to use a lawyer you could try it on your own and um you know but you can't foreclose in New Jersey without a lawyer you can just get a money judgment without a lawyer in small claims and there's no reason why you uh you there's no reason why you shouldn't try it but most associations don't do it they'd rather not be bothered because you'd have to do all the paperwork you have to go to court. Oh that's the one last thing in in in New Jersey when you do a small claims action it's all done in one day so you have to show up it's not like a lawsuit where you can hope the guy doesn't show up for you and then you win.

SPEAKER_07

In New Jersey you have to sue and you have to show up if you don't show up then you lose Adam um what happens if you take someone to small claims court and you lose can an attorney go back after him uh well I think you do that you're gonna you're looking I was gonna say you you you opened this up because Elliot pointed out the DNO issue which I was gonna kick over I was gonna say don Gregor probably bite Trump at the bit because if you're a uh a board member or a manager and you get a small claim score you lose probably not going to be covered by your DNO because you just committed gross negligence will follow visas in South Carolina you're not allowed to go so you you've got to be represented by an attorney but um uh I mean you can appeal an attorney could appeal just like they could appeal anything else but if a uh homeowner or I mean if you had a board member or a uh manager did it I I can't imagine they're gonna have done everything they needed to do to set up the situation for an appropriate appeal. But uh also going back to the question that John pointed earlier you threw about the judgment I mean it's silly to do it because you go let's say you get a a judgment in small claims court okay great what are you gonna do with the judgment well hopefully you're gonna try to secure it against the home as a lien so why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just go and get a lien it's it just just it it's just it doesn't make any sense to do to go to small claims court unless you don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03

If you're here for CEUs you got to send it to me one more time please send it to me one more time just put in the question feature I need CEUs I need CEUs Dawn I'm so sorry because I know how busy you are Greg's not that busy usually I think he lays back and has a lot of people serving him work to dead but anything you want to tell us Dawn any more insurance stuff or just anything in general you want to share because I feel bad we didn't have a lot of insurance stuff today.

SPEAKER_00

No but you know there's also maybe acting outside of your scope of authority do not practice law without a license do not conduct uh financial audits without the assistance of a CPA and also you know when it comes to collections if you need legal advice you should get it I think Greg and I get a lot of phone calls from people who talk to us first and then want to know if they should go to the attorney.

SPEAKER_03

And audience uh panel we got like three minutes here. Greg, really quick I have a question for you to use up your time if you don't mind. Am I gonna I'm driving up for our event tomorrow in Hudson Valley we have a reverse expo it's gonna be packed. Can I I'm waiting for my invite I have not gotten my invite from you and Deb yet to stay over at your place tonight. Should I just head right over there to your home or should I maybe go to the hotel hotel first?

SPEAKER_05

I'll meet you at the restaurant. All right closing thoughts Greg that didn't sound like an invite but go ahead I had one more item I wanted to point out for people to learn this this surprises boards and property managers sometimes you have the person who's been continuously in arrears and behind and doesn't pay their common charges. The property insurance policy includes loss of income which is indirect damage and then that building let's say is in a five unit building gets destroyed in a fire the policy pays for uncollectible common charges. And if it's shown in the documents that you haven't been able to collect for that unit owner previously to the fire you're not necessarily going to be able to collect from the insurance company during the time let's say 18 months it takes to rebuild that building they're gonna deem that to have been uncollectible anyway. So you may not get insurance monies for those common charges for that time period um that maybe you would have thought or expected to and I have boards be surprised on that one but it needed to be collectible.

SPEAKER_03

Is it ever good news Greg?

SPEAKER_05

No it's usually doom and gloom with all your questions Ray I know very quickly we only have two minutes.

SPEAKER_08

John very quick closing thoughts yeah so I actually saw the same uh situation that Greg just mentioned so um as Corey's been mentioning you you yeah stay you know best practice stay on top of your collections uh let your attorneys do it and um you you'll you'll see you'll see good results it might not be immediate but you you really need to just refer to your attorneys and let them do what they do best.

SPEAKER_01

Corey Adam's gonna go last so very quick because he hates having any time taken away from him Corey closing thoughts don't use attorneys fees as an excuse not to go after um your collections uh we're really good at what we do uh many law firms including us we will defer our fees and actually advance the costs so the collection action may cost the association absolutely nothing um stay on top of it it's it's probably your most important duty uh as a board member elliot elliot get your liens on file if someone is delinquent get your liens on file you do not have to decide that you're definitely going to foreclose on somebody just because you get your lien on file and that lien protects the association.

SPEAKER_02

Dave I would say that I think it's important that boards um while equal treatment is important across the board I think boards should also uh try to look at each individual delinquency as a separate and distinct sort of legal problem. Some owners require more aggressive tactics some require maybe less aggressive tactics some owners have earned the right for payment plans some have you know um some have abused their their rights to those things so I think that um each individual delinquency is an individual legal problem that should be treated as an individual legal problem.

SPEAKER_07

Adam take us out of the program uh I would say don't be afraid of the foreclosure process a lot of boards they get freaked out and managers and their first time coming in like oh my gosh we don't want to foreclose we don't want the property they're worried about all these things as if it's the first time that the attorneys ever handled it it's not uh we've done thousands of these everybody on here it's in between all of us here we've probably done tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands between attorneys you just have in the film that you see here today but only you know maybe one to three in two hundred starts ends up as an actual foreclosure. It's very rare that they actually end up foreclosing and the goal is not to foreclose the goal is to collect the money. And in most situations homeowners will come up and they will eventually pay so you know don't be afraid of the process it's it it's not as scary as it seems and just let your professional coordinate with your professionals let the professionals do your work and and guide you through it.

SPEAKER_03

I want to thank everybody for being here Dawn and Greg thanks for hanging out today I know it was kind of I appreciate your time valuable thanks everybody and I hope to see people tomorrow uh Hudson Valley CI Reverse Expo bye everybody thank you so much