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AI May Already Be Creating Legal Risk for Your Association

• Raymond Dickey

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0:00 | 59:14

AI is everywhere—but are community association boards and managers using it safely… or setting themselves up for lawsuits?

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YouTube Video Full LiveStream: https://youtu.be/3iRk4l4n56s

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In this eye-opening session, we break down the real-world risks of using AI in HOA and condo operations—from confidentiality breaches and copyright violations to insurance coverage gaps and potential negligence claims.

You’ll hear how something as simple as copying text into AI or relying on it for decisions could expose your association to serious liability—including federal violations, data breaches, and even subpoenaed AI conversations.

This is not theoretical. These issues are already happening.

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What You’ll Learn

• Why using AI for board decisions can backfire in court

• The hidden danger of entering confidential HOA data into AI tools

• Open AI vs. closed AI—what boards MUST understand

• How AI can accidentally copy copyrighted material (and cost you The 

• Why “we didn’t know” won’t protect your association

• Insurance gaps: when coverage may NOT apply

• Why board members still carry full fiduciary responsibility

• How AI use by vendors and managers can expose your association

• Simple policies every board should adopt immediately

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Panel

Raymond Dickey

AssociationHelpNow®

www.AssociationHelpNow.com


Dawn Becker-Durnin, CIRMS

Acrisure

dbecker-durnin@acrisure.com

www.acrisure.com


Lori P. Hager, Esq.

Kyberia Legal

lori@kyberialegal.com

www.kyberialegal.com

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Who Should Watch:

HOA Managers, Condo Boards, Community Association Leaders, Insurance Professionals, and Anyone Using AI in Association Operations

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Hosted by AssociationHelpNow® | Practical insights for managers and boards who live this every day.

This content does not constitute professional advice.

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#HOA #CondoBoards #PropertyManagement #AI #ArtificialIntelligence #HOAmanagement #CommunityAssociations #CyberRisk #HOAlegal #Insurance #DataPrivacy #BoardMembers #RiskManagement


SPEAKER_00

Thank you for being here. This is a recorded session. It is March 24th. If you are here for CEUs today, you need to follow our instructions. So this is going to pop up and you need to use your question feature. Find the question feature. You need to be in our go-to webinar system if you're here for CEUs. If you're just watching on YouTube and you don't care about CEUs, it doesn't matter. If you're on the go to webinar and you want CEUs in order to keep C A M I C B happy and I want to keep them happy, you need to utilize your question feature and just write in CEUs or I need CEUs. And I'm going to ask you to do that a couple more times during the program. So if you need CEUs, pay attention. If you don't, maybe you can relax a little bit and maybe pay just a little bit of attention, right, Dawn?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

With that being said, let me have our panel introduce themselves with who I see first, and that is Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

Hi everyone. My name is Dawn Becker Dernan, and I'm a property and casualty licensed insurance agent. I work on behalf of Acrasure as their practice leader. Actually is a nationwide as well as international insurance agency, and we provide property casualty employee benefits and all types of risk management advice for our clients.

SPEAKER_00

All right, and this is the first time I'm meeting Lori. So, as usual, new people don't have any idea what we have going on and how we do things around here, but Lori is already a good sport. Lori, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02

Certainly, my name is Lori Hager. I'm with the law firm of Kyberia Legal. We are a corporate firm that specializes in intellectual property, which means patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and AI. We have offices in New Jersey and in New York, and it's an international practice, which means that we practice in Europe and Asia and South America as well. That's so you're like a genius attorney, I think.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know about that, but I love that job. So I was like reading your background before you know you came on and everything. But okay, so I'd like to start off, if it's okay, Lori, with a couple, you're the judge or you judge. And the audience could use the uh question feature if they want to play along, and I'll get back to them on their answers if they want to. So the first one is you're you're the judge or you judge because that fits better. And the board is being cross-examined. The board is being cross-examined, they're in court and they admit under oath that they relied on AI for decisions, Lori. Is that helping them or hurting them? So let me go to Dawn first, and then you give us the answer. Dawn, what do you think? You're muted.

SPEAKER_03

From an insurance perspective, I think this could be unfavorable on their behalf as a defense in court, because AI is not infallible. In fact, it really does have a lot of mistakes and errors. And I would also say that the board has to use their business judgment, which uses consulting, uh, which is consulting with real life professionals who are licensed and or certified in their craft or expertise.

SPEAKER_00

I think Dawn may have answered the question already, Lori, or she got pretty close, I think.

SPEAKER_02

Not really close, but I'm gonna I'm gonna add on to what she said. I agree with everything she said. However, I'm gonna add on a negligence aspect to that, where you have a board that is now admitting to number one, knowing they didn't know the answer to something, and then number two, going to a source that I don't want to say everybody knows, but at least everybody right now is questioning the veracity of. So in their answer, they're in, I would argue they're admitting negligence. Um, and so if I was conducting that cross-examination, we'd be having a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I meant so this is definitely the trend that we're heading in, though, Lori, right? And I think people are kind of like, and we're gonna jump around today. I think people are just diving in without even checking the depth of the water or what they're diving into. Do you do you agree? They don't have any idea about the concept of some of the issues with AI.

SPEAKER_02

Great. I think that's a great point. I mean, when when you're at a at a lake and you see the slide, everybody wants to go down it, but nobody's really checking to see number one, is it deep enough? Or number two, is it too shallow, or even end up at the bottom of the lake and never get out. And that's really what we're looking at AI, where you have AI that's really shallow and you're gonna hurt yourself, or you have AI that's so deep that you can never get out of the morass of the question that you you asked it. Um, and although it may be fun for a lot of people who are good swimmers, those of us who are not need to beware.

SPEAKER_00

And we have a lot of complex questions for you, Lori. So we're just starting off with like the basics, just to get the ball rolling. But since we have you here, I definitely we want to ask you some questions. So let's do one more you're the judge or you judge. Um, the board is in court again, Dawn. Let's say it's the same board. They didn't learn their lesson from the last time, right? And they're in court and they're being being cross-examined. And they had dumped into AI a spreadsheet that included some medical conditions about some of their uh residents, or maybe it was some other confidential information because they want AI to help them. And the AI's platform terms allowed data retention or use for training. If they even checked it, and Lori will probably let us know what that's about. But the information has been leaked, Lori. Somehow the information got out there. What is gonna happen in this case, Lori? Are the board gonna be in trouble?

SPEAKER_02

The board's gonna be in fantastic trouble. The board's gonna be in trouble on the state level, it's gonna be in trouble on the federal level. Um, they could uh suffer criminal questions, um, and I leave that to a board attorney because that is way out of my purview. Um, but the main issue, not only are they gonna you know have issues with legality, they're also gonna have issues with the confidence of their members, of the residents. You know, I'm not quite sure why they would be collecting medical information, but we've all been to a doctor's office where we're signing those HIPAA forms, which are incredibly annoying, but incredibly protected. And that means that this this board violated HIPAA, which is probably one of the highest standards of privacy protections that we have. Um, I always talk about trade secret and PII, personally identifiable information. It sounds like your board went went afoul of this. So there is significant issues here. And I'm gonna go to Dawn on gosh, what is gonna happen to them next as far as liability and risk?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um, Lori, too, I was using this as an example, any confidential information. That's kind of like the direction I'm going in. I just use medical as an example. But this could be boards putting in executive session minutes. Maybe one of the board members tosses it into AI and says, Hey, I want you to rewrite this for me, AI. Um, confidential information into AI. Um, Dawn, good practice, bad practice. Why should people be worried about it?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think it's bad practice. I think anytime information, especially in an open AI situation, you're not using it in your own network closed. Uh, as you pointed out, records retention, who's looking at it, who can get it later on, what if the website goes down and someone else buys the rights? Do they get that information? We have a lot of acquisitions of companies that go on, but ultimately from an insurance perspective, there's general liability, but really the policy we'd look to is the cyber liability insurance coverage. And that is going to be your breach of data and information and the response to it as well as if you are sued.

SPEAKER_00

So, Lori, this comes up a lot. What is a closed AI system versus is it should should it be called open or public, or why don't you tell us?

SPEAKER_02

Open. So the difference between closed and open is that an open AI system is much like ChatGBT, uh, the the public version, the web version, not the prepaid, and we'll get into that in a second, where chat GBT is using the internet to do its own learning. So anything you feed into the public version of it is then being used for anybody else who asks similar questions. So, one example I I'd like to give is that if my adversary went onto Chat GBT and typed in one of my clients' names, if I had fed information about that client, excuse me, into Chat GBT, Chat GBT will then tell my adversary everything that I told ChatGBT. And yes, it has happened, and yes, it can happen. So the same thing goes for your boards. If your board puts in the name of its association and specific information to open AI, meaning that it is open to the public, then the public can search and can find things, much like you could do a Google search. Closed AI. Go ahead, sorry. That's okay. Closed AI is more a little bit like Copilot, where that's on Microsoft, where Copilot promises in its privacy policy that any information you enter into the AI will not be not only given to third parties, but the AI itself won't learn off of it, meaning that it won't use your information to give information to other people, which is very important from a board perspective, not only with regard to its contracts, but it's also its private information.

SPEAKER_00

So that's pretty terrifying. So basically, you're in open AI and it's the worst person at keeping secrets for the most part.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Think of it as you're giving your 12-year-old child keys to your kingdom. And with HOAs, there's a lot of fun, juicy information in there, uh, which can cause significant problems.

SPEAKER_00

Dawn, this comes back, you know, to a big insurance coverage, right?

SPEAKER_03

Keep getting that mute button. So insurance again is it's gonna be cyber because we have privacy issues, but we could also get sometimes deep in the weeds on general liability and even directors and officers' liability. So at the end of the day, I think really when we're looking at what we're using is having a protocol for our board members and our managers to understand what our risk is. Meaning, if we're going to be potentially using these tools, let's authorize what tools or what AI services we should use as a group. And that way, at least we can control the manner of information being put into a third-party database as well as what you know potential effects from that database could be in the future. For example, putting a written document of a protocol for a board. If you're going to use this, use this AI service, not that AI service. Print your results, keep a tab, you know, that type of thing. So I think moving forward, we're gonna see more of that guidelines having to be incepted with our boards and our managers.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, we're gonna talk about other things today, too. We're gonna talk about copyright infringements and all kinds of good stuff. I mean we're just getting started with just this portion of what could be some of the issues with AI. So, Lori, so far, I think we've hit two big ones, right? Um, stuff that you put into AI is theoretically not safe. Uh, correct? Correct. Yes. And then we're not even talking about the part that you can be referring to AI for certain kinds of advice when you should be using a professional, is also going to get you in a lot of trouble. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02

That's very accurate. In fact, the state of New York has legislation before the Senate right now that is going to be requiring AI chatbots, and we can get into what those are, to actually have disclaimers regarding any type of professional information that they're giving out. And they are looking towards criminalizing the creators of the chatbots if they start acting like a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, uh, any licensed professional. So if you're asking AI a question that should go to these licensed professionals, you should be picking up the phone and not the mouse.

SPEAKER_00

I use AI all the time, and it's terrifying what it feels confident in answering me. I meant literally just about anything it'll answer. Um, and you can trick it. There are some, right, Lori, there are some um safety features they have in there, right? Where it'll say, I don't want to tell you that, but it's so easy to go around and say, hey, I um I want I have a hypothetical, you know, change the hypothetical. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02

Unfortunately, those safety features are non-existent when it comes to legal advice, because there's a certain idea that legal advice isn't um harmful to your body, right? So if if it's medical information that you're requesting, the AI knows immediately to say, hey, you know, I'm gonna give you this information I got from Google, but uh, you know, you need to see a doctor. But when you're talking about legal advice or other type of professional advice where you may not be may not be obvious that you're hurting human life or you're hurting a building, you know, again, to hurt human life, the AI is not gonna be uh tagged with informing the user that this information might might not be accurate either in total or for the jurisdiction you're in. I mean, that's a big issue, is where are you? AI doesn't care where you are. New Jersey has different regulations as California, as Florida, as North and South Carolina. Why? Because we have different weather. Um, full stop. I mean, let's just go with the basics. So you can't rely on AI for that.

SPEAKER_00

But it's so good, Lori, it's sounding official. It's like talking to your friend, like at the bar, that thinks he's an expert in something and he knows all the lingo, but in reality, what they're saying is just a bunch of garbage. It sounds so good, Lori. It sounds so official.

SPEAKER_02

I know, but yet they were drinking alcohol the entire time. So really, uh, and that's what AI is doing, and you have to think about that. They call it hallucinations. Like, my gosh, it's even worse than alcohol, but we don't pick it down that road. Um, and that's literally what it is. I mean, I when I put in basic, I'll put in black letter law. What is the law in California for this? Because I'm being lazy. I don't feel like going on Lexus, which by the way, has an A on it as well. Um, and then I look at it, I'm like, that's just not doesn't feel right, but it really, I mean, it really looks right. I have to do the research myself. And I always do, of course. I mean, the danger we get into, as everybody gets into, is when we're in a rush and we just don't have that time when, and that's exactly when we do need to slow down.

SPEAKER_00

So you're not gonna theoretically, Dawn, are you gonna have coverage and defense um in some of these scenarios? We're talking about the protection of confidential information, and then we're I guess we're throwing two things at you that are completely different. And then the other aspect is not using a professional and instead of using AI, coverage or no coverage?

SPEAKER_03

It depends. Most insurance policies know, and I mean that. Look closely because insurance carriers are getting wise to this. In fact, they use AI as well, but really what we're saying are cyber exclusions, and anything with electronic data is also excluded, digital data and um non-tangible or intangible type information. Um, you know, it's not something we could touch or feel. That type of stuff already excluded. So when I say it depends, it's gonna depend on whether you have a separate cyber insurance policy or an endorsement to your general liability coverage.

SPEAKER_00

So, Lori, we're not telling board members and managers not to use AI like I use it, and it's it's extremely a powerful tool. Um, I have guidelines that I like to follow, and I think I'm using it properly, but why don't you why don't you communicate how can boards and managers um use AI properly and not get themselves in trouble?

SPEAKER_02

Um honestly, it's very difficult because you're you're looking at a board of made of individuals who have different backgrounds, um, and they are put together that way on purpose because you want people with different backgrounds and different understandings. Um, so when you're on a board and you know it may be that you're reviewing, you know, first of all, I'm gonna caveat what this is closed AI. Under no circumstances do I recommend you use open AI for any purpose when you're talking about a board or any business for that matter. So we're talking about closed AI, so there's very limited amount of uh availability to the public. Um, and maybe you're looking for summaries, um, you're looking for assistance in evaluating two or three different um uh uh proposals by by different companies. Maybe you have roofers that are coming in and their proposals are just unbelievably you know annoying to read. I don't want to say difficult, but annoying. So you're gonna take you know all four proposals and put them in and have AI compare them. Um, in fact, I've heard of lawyers where where we have a list of questions. Here are my questions. Please tell me which one of these four proposals answers all of these questions. That's a very uh uh economical way of learning each one of those proposals. Does it mean that you're going to not read it? No. So what it may be is that you're assigning different tasks to your different board members. One board member is in charge of reading it. Sorry, that's the person who likes the reading. Another one is going to be in charge of you know, really using AI to digest the details, and that's where you're making up these lists. But again, ultimately it's the board that's making the decision. It is not the AI.

SPEAKER_00

As an example, I just used AI to compare two documents, right? Well, somebody had an older version from years ago and they sent me a they sent me the document again, but I didn't really trust 100% that it was the same. So I ran it through AI, and AI basically went through the differences, which were very minor, but I really don't trust it, Lori. I'm basically using it for a guide to kind of where I don't have to go back and check some of the sections I'm not worried about, but those sections that are critical, I'm gonna check it myself because I just don't trust that AI is accurate. Am I right? Am I wrong? Um, what would be the right procedure?

SPEAKER_02

You're absolutely right, especially in the the checking portion of that, um, for the portions that you believe are important for the portions that that your board is looking at. And to the to the extent you're gonna do some of that comparison yourself, where again you just have the AI as a guide, picking out all the big things, I think that's that's a great way of going.

SPEAKER_00

Now, tell me if this helps me out or doesn't help me out, because I'm making an assumption here. Lori, um, I always let people know that I used AI. So sometimes I'll take uh we have our live streams like today, and I could take this transcript and dump it in AI and it will write an article. But boy, do I put a big disclaimer at the end of it? I don't have I won't have AI quote you in any manner whatsoever, because I don't know if that's going to be accurate, right? And it'll basically just state that this is just a summary that was produced by AI and that you should go to the actual recording, you know, to find out for yourself. It's just um it's just a tool to give you a brief summary. Is that good enough? Or where do you how do you advise people to use a is there any disclaimer that's a magic disclaimer? And I know non-lawyers always think there is, but there probably isn't. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_02

So right now, state, so we're talking about state law, and every state is a little bit different. So right now, um, most the majority of states that have uh disclaimer requirements, they're pretty basic. Essentially, you're just advising the individual who's reading it, the individual who's using the product or the process, that this was AI assisted. Um, and for right now, that's really all that we have to do. Now, that's you know, again, whatever the state requires is always the bottom of the barrel, and we want to make sure that we're at the top. Um, so you want to just be a little bit more descriptive on, you know, maybe the type of AI you use, closed AI. Um, you could even go even further and say it was, you know, Copilot or ChatGPT, or or if you're using a very industry-specific AI, you'd want to include that. For example, the lawyers have special uh legal AI, engineers have specific engineering AI. So that gives it just a little bit more credence than just going with your normal AI. And you'd want to put that in there. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

Don, I feel like I can get away with it because I'm not that important, right? I'm not offering legal advice, I'm not a board member trying to figure out a complex issue that's gonna come upon the owners or the residents. I feel like I have some flexibility, but boy, if I was doing something important where what I was putting out there could cause damages to people, substantial damages, I would be really nervous. And your mic is muted.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I agree. And I also think, too, where we're seeing a lot of AI incorporated where people are not mentioning is an accounting. And we're seeing a lot of reports that are being developed in comparisons, especially with budgets and accruals. Um, that is where your DNO is not going to protect you. We don't provide insurance for accounting errors or tax liabilities. So it's gonna be very important that you have a discussion with your accounting companies and also your management team as to how they develop their budgets and their accounting. And if they're using AI, what happens if it goes wrong? What are they gonna do for you?

SPEAKER_00

But Dawn, every board says, don't, you know, oh, we'll we'll just dump it on the manager's insurance. We don't need to worry about it. If the manager screws this up, what do we care? We're gonna dump it on the manager's insurance.

SPEAKER_03

Well, let's just think about this. The insurance is for what you are legally obligated to pay in damages. So if a lawsuit comes in, the insurance company just doesn't cough up a million dollars and say, here you go, go away. What happens is we're gonna go to court and each party is gonna argue, and then the judge will ultimately determine who is responsible. I think we've seen how long it can take for a civil case, not much less a criminal case, to play out in the courts. So if you're gonna wait for the management company or another third party, you might be waiting for a long time. And that cost, it at the end of the day, it can't be quantified immediately. We won't know. Until after we quarterback. So having insurance up front to transfer financial risk is going to be really essential.

SPEAKER_00

So, Lori, can AI be subpoenaed? Maybe I robbed the bank. I didn't, but let's just say, hey, AI, I robbed the bank, and how do I get away with it? The cops are hot on my hot on my trail. Um, is that a smart move? I know I I know I picked the kind of a ridiculous situation, but uh it's not that ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, because your Google searches absolutely can be subpoenaed and have been in the past. And yes, your AI discussions can be saved. Copilot saves your discussions in certain places. And yes, they can be subpoenaed, and yes, they have been already. It is not new. They're already down that road very far. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know, Dawn, I really like working with Lori already because she's she's very encouraging. Do you notice like when I ask questions? She likes the other lawyers that we work with, Lori. I've been working with them for years. Sometimes they're pretty rough on me, right? Dawn, would you agree? They're great. I love them.

SPEAKER_03

My Ray deserves it too.

SPEAKER_00

I know. Oh, jeez. Well, now you encourage Lori not to be so so um supportive. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think she's doing great.

SPEAKER_00

So, Lori, there's a lot more I want to get into about copyright stuff, but let's let's kind of wrap up. Um, oh, I have one other question before you wrap up this portion with confidentiality and um taking advice. Any different advice for managers versus board members? If I'm a board member, can I get away with more and I don't have to worry about it as much because I'm a volunteer compared to a manager?

SPEAKER_02

No, absolutely not. Um they're they're on equal food footing. Um, in fact, I would argue that board members have I wouldn't argue, board members have a fiduciary duty, which means the standards for them are even higher. Um, so so neither of them are gonna are gonna get away.

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

Ugh. All right. So, Dawn, anything to add just with the confidentiality issue and taking advice from insurance before I go to Lori, because I want to dive into the copyright stuff.

SPEAKER_03

I do want to also add on to what Lori said about the fiduciary duty and the higher standard. You are responsible for your manager's actions. You truly are. In fact, in the management contract, you're holding them harmless and you are indemnifying them and agreeing to include them as an additional insurer, which means you're giving rights to your policy to defend them, not the converts. So it's really important, board, that you don't say, well, that's what the manager told me, and that's what I did. You that's not defensible in court. It is extremely important for you to read your documents and for you to understand your documents. If you do not understand them, then get a professional opinion, i.e., legal, nine times out of ten.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So, Lori, I can't wait to dive into like the copyright infringement stuff because it's like so interesting. But take us out of this session. What did we not cover as far as confidentiality goes and using AI for advice? Or why don't you rephrase everything so it makes sense to the audience?

SPEAKER_02

Sure. I I think the the easiest answer to all of this is if you don't know for yourself and you know there's a professional out there who can answer your question, use AI to maybe frame your question for the professional. Use AI to maybe do a little homework or background before you contact the professional. Um, but ultimately you really want the professional to help you make those decisions. And it's also a review of the professional as well. I mean, if when I have one of my clients calling me and they say, Lori, I think I have a stupid question, um, are you gonna build me some of this? Because I know that this is a big issue with calling professionals. I don't want to be built. Well, the answer is, well, my answer to them is well, ask me your question and then I'll let you know if I'm gonna bill you. And then I'll also let you know how much. And asking your professional number one, is it billable or is it a simple answer and how much is going to keep you within a budget and you don't have to worry about the well, gosh, I don't want the lawyer sending me a big bill question because that's a lot of the issue that AI is allegedly supposed to solve. I don't want the big bill. The reality is you either get a medium bill now or an incredible bill later if you make a mistake. So I always want to go with the medium. And sometimes, honestly, I'm telling my clients I'm not billing you. This is a simple question. I'm gonna give you an answer. I like you as a client, I want to keep you as a client, so I'm not gonna bill you out of existence.

SPEAKER_00

So I am guilty of this, and I'm just curious how you feel about it, Lori, because then maybe even Dawn, you know, I went to the doctor recently and had like a minor sinus issue. I printed out a bunch of stuff on AI, and I could just tell the doctor probably gets that like 50 times a day now. Um, in my case, it was pretty close. How do Dawn's already laughing because I guess this is going on in the insurance industry? Um, how do attorneys are you getting a lot of um legal work uh sent to you? And I want to ask, is there anything wrong with that? Why can't I print out some legal commentary and then send that over to you for review? How do you how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_02

So it affects me in two ways. One, I don't appreciate the let's take on the lawyer, and AI told me. Um, that is incredibly annoying. I have to be honest with you. AI did not spend three years in law school, clerkship with a judge, and then 20 years of experience. It's been around for five years. So not gonna work. But asking the intelligent question of, hey, before I called you, I did some homework, and this is what I found, and here are my concerns. So I was looking up in AI about this, you know, independent contractor agreement as opposed to uh, you know, an employee. What does that mean? Are we employing this person to do groundswork or are they truly an independent contractor? I'm confused. And the lawyer is gonna say, I would be impressed by that because now it's a segue into what I'm going to do with you regarding documents. Yes, please send me a document because what I'm going to say is I'm going to review your document. If it's going to take me too much to fix your document as opposed to using something that I've used in the past, where I can then make your time less and my angst a lot easier, I'm going to make that decision and explain to you why. But feel free because sometimes AI is causing the client to think and answer uh questions that is going to save me time and them time because they're going to do a lot of soul searching outside of our conversation, which is helpful to them.

SPEAKER_00

So, Dawn, what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, Lori. Yeah, attorneys don't mind if you do a little bit of research and send it over, but just use your uh good personality skills when you bring it up. Um, don't think so. Um, Dawn, uh, before I move on, how about insurance?

SPEAKER_03

I'm I'm just gonna say I'm thrilled that Lori said that because it is becoming an increasingly, as Lori, not in her rewards, but it's almost like a challenge to us as professionals. Hey, I found this information, you prove them wrong. And I have to tell you, our workload has increased exponentially because we're getting these very long, drawn-out emails created by AI with 16 different hypothetical situations that really don't even have to do with each other at all. And so then they're calling on the professional, answer this immediately. And unlike attorneys, we don't get we don't bill by the hour. So some of this really takes time where we have to sit down. And I can say, in some examples, it's taken me an entire day, two days. We're talking hours and hours of research, and it's a fire for that person. You gotta stop what you're doing. And meanwhile, they just put something in a chat GPT and took two seconds.

SPEAKER_00

It's just to be clear, I didn't go and wave the papers in front of my doctor. I love my doctor, and I would never upset her in any way. And she was actually laughing about it, but I did approach it in a way that you would have appreciated, Lori, with the doctor. I said, This is what I looked up. I kind of made a laugh about it. And but it was a good education tool for me, Lori. I actually did show up and I knew it was a little easier for the doctor to explain what my issue was since I had done some previous reading on it. Okay, I'm taking a quick break in here. You need to do the CEU option here. If you're here for CEUs and you're watching our go-to webinar system, if you're watching on YouTube, it doesn't matter. You need to use your question feature and enter. I need CEUs. You need to enter I need CEUs in your question feature. Thank you.

unknown

On it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. I don't even think people are aware of this. So I have like three questions here. I think they're good questions. Let's see. If an association publishes AI-generated rules and policies that closely resemble another community's copyrighted materials, does we didn't know actually protect them, Lori?

SPEAKER_02

No, not at all. We didn't know doesn't protect you from anything in any aspect of the law. The the copyright statute um is a federal statute protected by the United States Constitution. So we didn't know should have been taught to you in first, second, third, fourth grade, but usually it's not. So I'll give you a pass on that. But the idea is that it was copied. Now the question becomes regarding the other side, is it actually copyright protected? Now, for the purpose of Ray's question, he's saying it is, so I'm going to say, okay, it is. Rules and regulations in this instance were copyright protected, and yours are yours are significantly close enough, then yes, you absolutely will be liable. Um, if it turns out we're questioning whether or not it's copyright protectable, why? Because it has to have a monacoma creativity and typically lease uh lists of rules and regulations may not be necessarily protectable. I mean, we're really diving into the weeds, um, but in general, using AI is simply going to reproduce, and there's a high probability of it reproducing what else what is already out there, including wholesale copying off of somebody else's website.

SPEAKER_00

Well, what's terrifying for B Dawn and why this question hits home, when I started using AI to write articles for me, I would, like I said, I would give it a transcript similar to today. In the beginning, AI started adding a whole bunch of stuff like unrelated to what was in the transcript. And I was thinking to myself, first of all, I'm not going to use it because I don't know if it's true or not. But second, where's it coming from? Is it pulling out entire paragraphs from somebody's website somewhere? And eventually I was able to tell AI just stick with the transcript. But it was pretty scary that AI would have done that, Dawn.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I just had this issue the other day. I put in a master deed declaration and I specifically asked for the insurance article to determine the insurance responsibility. Pretty clear cut. It came up with this answer that I said, where did you get that from? And it said, Oh, well, clearly it's here. And I said, Well, please name the article and the section. And it said, I can't. Why can't you? Because I used information based upon other community associations that sounded similar, and that's where I came up with my information. Now, if I hadn't questioned it, if I hadn't known that the answer was wrong, I would have been completely wrong myself because I would have been trying, it sounds so confident. It was, here's your answer. And the reality was it was telling me it was sourcing information from other places. Where all those places are, I don't know, but I'm guessing I'm not the first person to put in an insurance provision from a contract or a declaration into their system.

SPEAKER_00

Lori, it didn't even tell me. I mean, I just, you know, I just knew, right, that it had picked up entire paragraphs on a topic and just inserted them. And once again, coming back to the kind of original question, I could be theoretically if it had outright took copyrighted material, two paragraphs, three paragraphs, you would need to tell me what would what would count. And just, and I know I reproduced it exactly word to word. From what I'm hearing, I would be in trouble. An association could do this with a newsletter and a bunch of other issues. Um, can you run with it from there?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, focusing the newsletter example is a little bit easier. Not only are you going to have problems with the text, but the question also becomes were you including pictures? Were you including artwork? Were you including design? All of those are copyright protected. Now I'll take you one step further just for the fun of it, because we're talking about the Copyright Act. We haven't even touched on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which says that if you do that and you remove the copyright insignia on it, you've got a whole new statute that you're going to deal with. And both of these statutes have uh punitive damages. They also have statutory damages. If they were actually registered pieces of work, which is happening now, more and more people are registering their work in order to stop the copying, um, you're gonna find yourself in serious federal trouble, not state. This is federal law we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think people understand too, Laura, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I've been in the printing business for a long time, but you know, I sold my printing. Anyway, so I'm very sensitive to copyrighted material, especially photos. There are people out there just looking for an issue to hit you up for some for some quick cash. They are looking for it. And I believe right now with the search engine tools that there are, they can easily find their own work out there. Um, this could, I don't want to say it's predatory because they kind of have a point but configuration. Oh, no, no, no. I'm gonna interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna interrupt you right there. It is predatory. It is. You said some people are looking. Entire law firms have been built on facial recognition uh modules that are apps um that are put into the internet to crawl the internet and find these images. Um, there are a significant amount of litigations that that I've litigated both here in New Jersey, in New York, in California, where these law firms are dedicated to only these types of files.

SPEAKER_00

Here's a scenario, Dawn. Tell me if it's accurate. Um, you get a phone call from a law firm um and it says, hey, you know what? You used our photo or used our three of our paragraphs in in your newsletter. Um you need to pay us uh$3,000 or we're gonna sue you. Um, Dawn, is that a legitimate example? And and let's face it, they're gonna get their money probably.

SPEAKER_03

Well, oftentimes yes, because it gets to be very expensive. But I love that Lori brought up that there's these people trolling the web, trolling the web, excuse me, to find this information. Um, I have a good friend who made who went on a trip to a theme park and wanted to design some certain shirts that had a specific logo. Well, they're trademarked and uh put some pictures up and bing, she got a call, she was on her Etsy, she got a phone call from someone who said she's an attorney, and hey, you're using images with our graphics that are trademarked, and you're infringing upon our copyright, and we're demanding you take that down. And for every day that you've had it up, we're going to enforce this penalty. It was shocking, and let me guess, let me tell you, her attorney said, take it down immediately, say sorry, and uh beg for mercy because it is serious. And we have a lot of communities that take pictures and they put them into their newsletters, and even worse, when somebody wants to make fun of somebody else on social media, we're having a policy, you know, an argument over governance, and someone wants to take a board member's picture and then put someone else's hand on that picture and crop it up and make it all sorts of funny, but they took someone's picture that maybe they had copyrighted. So we get into a lot of trouble there. And our insurance policies, especially if it's knowingly or intentional or going to exclude coverage, the aspect is did you do it innocently? Well, oftentimes not.

SPEAKER_00

But Lori, um, AI made my image for me, right? It it I asked it to make me an image about a cat riding a bicycle, um, throwing dog poop at people. I don't, it's sad that that's what I came up with. Anyway, well, that's okay, right? Do people have to worry about that?

SPEAKER_02

They do. Um, so assuming that maybe the cat has some characteristics of one of your board members, that is very well known. So now we're getting into name, image, and likeness issues. And remember that a board is a commercial, a quasi-commercial entity, which means you have defamation issues, you have tortious interference issues. I mean, all these are state law causes of action that, yes, I currently have pending before the New Jersey uh uh district court as a result of two businesses warring against each other and using allegations that were fraudulent and false. So, yeah, those images are fraudulent and false, they are injuring somebody's reputation. And from my perspective, you're liable. Dawn, from Dawn's perspective's perspective, coverage is questionable at best.

SPEAKER_00

So before we go on to the next, there's so there's so much interesting stuff. Um, take us home on this one and please scare the audience because I I mean I'm familiar with how predatory, now that you guys said that, I feel like I can say it. Um companies can be and law firms can be in regard to logos, and everybody wants to use sports logos, by the way. Laura, I can't tell you like how many times people send me stuff with their favorite sports team and they want me to put the logo in one of our magazines, but scare the audience a little bit and and then tell them what they can do and can't do. So they leave with something they could use. I don't want them to be so terrified that they don't feel like they can use AI at all.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. So when you're on the internet and there's an image that you want to use, you need to question yourself: are you using this for commercial purposes or are you using this for your personal purposes? If you're using it on a web page that has anything to do with out outside of your personal name, Lori Hager, you're using it for commercial purposes. And that means that any website that says it is free, this logo is free, this clickware is free, these photos are free. It is not because you are not using it for personal purposes, you're using it for commercial, which then brings you into the issues with the statute. Now, we never want to read all that boil that boring terms and condition language. That's for me who's got nothing better to do an evening without a glass of wine. The reality is that easy rule. If you're doing it for yourself, okay, chances are you may be okay, not maybe, but if it has anything to do with commercial school boards, you you are you're running afoul of the copyright rules. Simple, unless, unless you took the picture. If you took a picture and you are the individual who clicked the camera, you own it. Now it's very specific to say clicked the camera. Meaning, if you had an independent contractor click the camera, you need to make sure that you have a license agreement that allows you to use that picture. I don't care if it was your building, I don't care if it was your sign, it's the person behind the camera clicking that owns it. So if you get in writing, even an email, get an email. Yes, you can use it, have it, have fun. Great, you're free to go.

SPEAKER_00

But Dawn sent it to me, Lori, and she told me not to worry about it.

SPEAKER_02

You need to you need to double check with Dawn and say, Hey, Dawn, thank you for this. It's beautiful. However, did did you take this picture? Was it yours? Oh, yes, I did. Oh, fantastic. No, my son took it. Okay, is your your son over the age of 18? No, he's 10. Okay, when you're his parent, okay, we're great. Fantastic. Was it a company? Well, now we need to get in in with the company and understand. The biggest offender, um, I have to be honest, is uh summer interns. Why? Summer interns are brought on to help with social media, help with creating quick um newsletters, you know, do it fast, and the interns are used to cutting and pasting for their school projects, and they do the same thing here: cut and paste, and now you have a problem. So, what I'd warn you against is interns allowed to use pictures, dangerous things nobody would have thought, but here we are.

SPEAKER_00

Oh boy, all right. Sorry, audience. I feel like we're just Debbie Downers on everything. Go ahead, Dawn. I feel like you want to say something.

SPEAKER_03

I wanted to mention that some of my clients actually get releases from the photographers or videographers or whoever has captured audio so that they can use that in future presentations. So, you know, for example, you get those old-timey pictures taken or you get your wedding pictures taken, get a release from the photographer so that you can replicate those. Some of those releases, though, will say that you cannot alter their photos. So you really have to be particular and you should always ask, especially with a professional firm that is using the material, even this webinar, for example.

SPEAKER_00

Are you telling somebody can't use my image if they wanted to and put it like in a commercial for a really good looking?

SPEAKER_03

That's correct. They should have my age, you know, otherwise they're gonna violate copyright, like a model agency or something.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, yeah. All right, I'm glad I'm protected, Lori. I don't have to worry about that now. I'm not gonna put my image on a dating site. Okay, no, I'm kidding. Okay, um, let's talk policies. Are we ready to talk policies right now, Lori? Or is there did we miss any of the fundamentals so far? Because now we want to talk about. We talked about all the dangers. We properly scared everyone. Um let's talk about what they could do to protect themselves. Are we ready to go to that point, Lori, or was there anything else we forgot about? Copyright, confidential information. You guys hit it. We're doing, we're ready to move. Okay. Would you advise a board to pause AI entirely until policies, contracts, and safeguards are put into place put into place? Lori, there's a lot there. Uh oh, can we take a step back? I forgot. Dawn always tells me about this. Do I? Have to be worried about someone else's AI because this comes up with Don. Dawn has mentioned this many times. Dawn, why don't you ask the question that I'm trying to get to? You're dude.

SPEAKER_03

From an insurance perspective, we use AI a lot. In fact, we're starting to see that become the norm for a lot of the data analysis that we do, modeling, predictive modeling, as far as how much damage can incur in one area, what type of storms are happening, how frequent, all of that. So what if the information's wrong? We're looking at claims, and what if the information that is received from the third party is inaccurate? So I'll give you a great example. We're seeing a lot of our insurance carriers use imaging from satellites. We're also using drone technology. Well, when was the picture last updated? When was the image last captured? Because if your roof was just recently updated and completed two months ago, but the image capture is from a year ago and your roof was caved in, now you may not have insurance because the carrier says, Well, that's the ultimate end it be all. You can give me all the proof, but I saw the picture and this is our decision. So we are seeing underwriting decisions that are being compromised with bad information, not the latest up-to-date type information.

SPEAKER_00

I guess too, Lori, before we go forward, what I was thinking about too is Dawn, I think if you've mentioned it, and correct me if I'm wrong, about asking companies that you're giving information to. I don't really understand it, to be honest with you, whether they're using AI. Dawn, you bet okay, you know, hold on. Don't get so excited about insurance. So excited. Let me make sure I have the make sure I have this right, Dawn. And I I don't so Dawn has mentioned this about having to ask companies you're doing business with whether they're using AI. I really don't understand why you would need to do that. With that being said, Dawn, am I remembering correctly? And do you need to rephrase it for me?

SPEAKER_03

Uh I probably am not, we talk about so many topics, but I would be concerned about AI being used by third parties because ultimately, who is the third, you know, what is their third party service? How are they protected? How is that information stored? Who's selling it? Who's using it? There is a lot of information that we have out there. Just names can be the most valuable thing in a community association. Not your tangible assets, but your financial data and the names of the individuals in your community.

SPEAKER_00

But I want to stick with AI, Lori. I don't want to get too far off. But all right, so is that an issue? Do boards and managers have to worry about people they're doing business with, whether or not they're using AI? Are they responsible to ask about it?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So, like I said before, the uh states are requiring, uh some states are requiring disclosure that AI is being used. And that's important so that you can further question. And these questions are great ones that you're posing. You know, how is my data being safeguarded? Uh, where is it going? Um, and who else is getting access to this transcript? One thing that I have issues with in my life as a lawyer is that I'll have clients get on and start using AI to transcribe our telephone conversation. Well, I can't guarantee attorney client privilege because guess what? AI is a third party, and so attorney client privilege is now out the window. So I have to advise my client listen, I will not be recording this because I can't uh give you attorney client privilege, and I recommend that you don't either. But if you're going to, that's your choice. And that again is me knowing that AI is being used and getting the opportunity to give that warning. The same thing with Dawn. Dawn would be able to understand that AI is being used in these letters and say, hey, thank you so much for your letter. However, please understand that the information in here is not accurate, uh, and I'm going to work within those bounds. As a board receiving information from an accountant that now has a little caveat at the bottom saying this was assisted with AI. Well, now I understand I can ask more questions like thank you for the AI. However, how much of this did you as a CPA review? Because I have questions and they need to be answered.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Can I I I I I have to ask though, but that seems so wrong, right? Let's say I pay your law firm, right, Lori, to give me um your advice on something, your professional advice. I if I get something back from you that has a disclaimer that you generated it from AI, I'm just gonna throw it in the garbage and find another law firm. Um, are you telling me that that's actually happening now? Or an accountant, if an accountant sends me some information and says, oh, you know what, it may not all be accurate to a certain extent because we used AI, or it may not be safe. I mean, am I am I wrong here? Am I hearing you correctly?

SPEAKER_02

So you're hearing me correctly, but you're taking it in a direction that is unintended. So there are two ways for this. One, I do have clients who affirmatively ask me to use AI because it the time it takes for me to review something is significantly less. Um, and I have clients who are indicating that if I don't understand AI, then I am not up on the current legal requirements. In fact, the um New Jersey ethics and the New York ethics and the California ethics require that I understand all lawyers, not just me as an intellectual property attorney, understand AI and what it means. So, on one hand, we are being, as professionals, demanded that we use AI in certain aspects and use it responsibly. So we are not putting the notice on our product to say, hey, I used AI, so he he he, I'm not responsible. It's actually for the other purpose. It's hey, I used AI. Feel free to ask me about it. Feel free to understand that some technical aspect was reviewed by AI, but ultimately it is the human that is making the decision. It's similar to if I used an associate. Yes, I used a younger attorney, and I tell my clients, I'm gonna use a younger attorney to review this the first time so that I'm not literally doing spelling spell correct for you. After that, I am then going to review it and you're gonna pay for a lot less of my time because you already had one lawyer look at it. Um, it's similar with AI, but again, they're not a lawyer, so please don't take it in that direction either.

SPEAKER_00

That's interesting. I don't know how I feel about it. I don't know. I it makes sense, but I don't know. Um, do attorneys though, I don't think I've ever seen something that said my associate worked on some of this. Am I just not remembering right, Lori? I always just get like a summary from you might say paralegal list.

SPEAKER_03

I've seen paralegal services listed in the invoicing and that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00

No, I see the the services, but I don't see like a like an announcement about it. I always assume, right?

SPEAKER_02

Like, what do I care how you come up with your received an engagement letter, which is the contract between the lawyer and you, and the fact that an associate is being used must be listed on there and their fees should be listed on there. Now, again, I'm coming from the state of New Jersey where and New York and California, where it's required. Other states might not require it, but you as a client should require, you should know and get an engagement letter from your lawyer or any professional so you understand what your fees are ahead of time and how they're being calculated. And if AI is being used, you want to know how that fee is being calculated. Why? Because if I'm using, let's say, uh Lexus AI, which is specifically for lawyers, am I passing the fees on to you for my subscription fee? And what are those fees? You want to know that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, everything is so complicated, so complicated. And I blame all the insurance people and lawyers. No, it's not your fault. Um, so I think we answered this one. Would you advise a board to pause AI use entirely until policies, contracts, and safeguards are in place? Can I assume that's going to be yes, Laurie? And we can move on to the next one.

SPEAKER_02

It's going to be yes and it's going to be yes and meaning that what whose policies, you know, are and in whose safeguards. Are we waiting for the states to provide safeguards? Is the board itself cognizant enough to create their own policies and safeguards? So, you know, on one hand, I don't want them to miss the boat and the ability to really create economies of scales for their properties, but on the other hand, there's a protection. So, you know, much like in the in the olden days when we were all concerned about emails and we were very careful, we're going to be very careful here too. And we're just going to take things slowly, not stop, take it slow.

SPEAKER_00

All right, let me bring up these two last questions I have. Um, because maybe you'll combine it. Management is using AI tools but never disclosed it to the board. Something goes wrong. Is the board still on the hook? I know we touched upon a little bit. What policies should associations adopt before allowing AI tools to be used in day-to-day operations? Dawn, before I go to Lori, insurance companies love policies, true or false?

SPEAKER_03

We love them.

SPEAKER_00

You love them, right?

SPEAKER_03

We love them. Because the policy gets you to think about what the risk is to your business or your practice. Meaning when I write down and say I should do A before I do B, I think about that. And when we develop those protocols, it helps reduce risk or mitigate damages that could occur to lessen the severity of those damages. So I think it's excellent to always have that. And insurance loves it. We have checklists for everything.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I forgot this part. If you're watching the CEU version, you need to enter CEUs. I got so excited, Lori, about the topic that I just completely forgot about it. It's fine, just do it right now. If you need CEUs, you do need to use that question feature. I need to see this on my system. It's not up to me. And it needs to say that you you were here and that enter like CEU in the question feature. And then I get it. It's timed, stamped, and everything. And then I can show CMI CB that you are you are actually here during the right time period. So make sure you enter it. Okay, Lori, really quick. There were two questions. So management is using iTools, but never disclose it to the board. Is the board on the hook? And what policies should associations adopt? So I think we're kind of at the home stretch here, Lori, a little bit. What should associations be doing?

SPEAKER_02

So I would say it's twofold. Associations should not only be adopting policies, but associations in those policies should say we must have written contracts. And in those written contracts, the management, the board management managers should be disclosing AI. There are a lot of other things that should be in those contracts, but I just the amount of times today where I'm dealing with companies, individuals, and boards that well, no, there's no written contract, we didn't have a contract. And if you had if you started with a contract, a lot of these issues could be avoided because at that point, Don, I'm going to take your thunder. You're managing and shifting risk and liability. You are now saying to the management company, we are reliant on you. And yes, you are going to indemnify and defend us and add us as an additional short. Those are three steps that are really important. You need all three, you can't skip any. And then you become more protected. But you're not litigation proof. There is no such thing as litigation proof. Having really good relationships with your, oh, excuse me. Having really good relationships with your members, with your homeowners, with each other is much more important. But yet, again, once necessary, once you're in the court of law, I want to see a contract, I want to see a writing.

SPEAKER_00

So as far as like the policies go, a policy would, and you want to run your policy by a professional, an attorney, but I'm assuming a policy may say, would it be something like, hey, board members, you should not use AI for this, or you know, kind of, I don't want to spend too much time on it, Lori, but give me a couple of quick examples. What would be an AI policy for an association? Sure.

SPEAKER_02

AI should not be used with any confidential information. Uh closed AI might be able to be used for financial information, much like a calculator. Um, and to the extent we are creating any type of um newsletters or any type of written materials to our uh members, you want to have somebody proofreading it, make sure number one, it's accurate. And number two, we're not taking it from somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00

Dawn loves sending me text messages during the live stream. Yeah, I'll put the link in there if you remind me, Dawn. Can you send me an email on it and I'll put it in the description? All right, so Dawn, make sure you unmute because I notice you I don't know what's going on if people are making a racket there tonight. I don't know why you're muting and unmuting so much.

SPEAKER_03

I I do have somebody who's doing work outside. They're building me a storage shed for my creepy crawler Halloween figures.

SPEAKER_00

So that explains it because usually all right, closing thoughts, Dawn. Uh, and then we'll give Lori the last word on this. And by the way, guys, when we say goodbye, don't leave because I'm gonna do a little pre-record for a minute for the CU port I forgot to put in and put it in the middle. Audience, you don't need to worry about that. Go ahead, Dawn. Closing thoughts.

SPEAKER_03

I've been talking about cyber liability for years, and I know that a lot of my communities are have been wonderful about choosing to purchase cyber liability insurance, but it's not just insurance. Insurance is one aspect. You really need to put in the work, and I would highly recommend having some protocols and some written types of uh scenarios as to what to do with AI and when to use it and how to be responsible with it and carry that over in your governance. I think that would help reduce your risk to claims and then eventually contain costs in the future, such as legal expenses and the like.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, Lori, I have another question. I'm sorry. There's just I have so many questions. I'm curious before you go to closing thoughts, has AI made you busier? Because you're in, you said you're in an intellectual copyright profession, right? Has AI just been like a bunch of great new work for you? Are you a lot busier because of AI or less busy? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I am a lot busier uh fixing AI's mistakes. It's fantastic. I never thought about it, but this is this is what I do now is I fix AI mistakes. Um, and and a lot of it also has to do with, you know, as you had correctly pointed out, copyright violations. AI has no conscience and knows no rules. So so I yeah, I'm I'm doing great. This this is fabulous.

SPEAKER_00

All right. So closing thoughts, Lori, we'll give you the last word.

SPEAKER_02

So my closing thoughts is you know, AI is a tool and it is as dangerous as you allow it to be. And if you follow Dawn's advice where you have policies and procedures, rules of the road for using it, you're gonna be a lot safer. It's not gonna be perfect, but you're gonna be a lot safer. And then you add on the added protection, let's call it, you know, the the bumper on your car. And that is, you know, talking to a lawyer and just saying, hey, can you review these policies and procedures? Is there any holes? Is there anything we're missing? And and and I think you're gonna have a really good car put together. Again, not perfect, but you're gonna do well.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being here, Lori. It was great meeting you and Dawn. And I appreciate the audience being here. Thank you.