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Psychology of Groupthink in HOA Boards – When Governance Turns Dysfunctional

• Raymond Dickey

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What do high-control groups and dysfunctional HOA boards have in common?

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/cIZ_4cK9VRY

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More than most people are comfortable admitting.

In this provocative but practical session, we explore the psychology behind groupthink, dominant personalities, loyalty pressure, and information control—and how these dynamics quietly impact HOA and condo board decision-making.

This is not about comparing community associations to cults.

It’s about recognizing human behavior patterns that can undermine leadership, increase liability, and damage trust within your community.

In this session, we break down:

• How groupthink forms in volunteer HOA and condo boards

• The danger of strong personalities dominating decisions

• Why dissenting voices disappear—and why that creates risk

• How misplaced loyalty can override fiduciary duty

• The warning signs of an insular or isolated board

• Practical strategies to restore transparency, balance, and accountability

Every board starts with good intentions.

But without structure, awareness, and open dialogue, even well-meaning boards can drift into unhealthy governance patterns.

If you are a community association manager or board member, this session will challenge your thinking—and give you practical tools to strengthen leadership and decision-making.

It’s about behavior.

PANELISTS

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow® • www.AssociationHelpNow.com

David Byrne, Esq. • Ansell Grimm & Aaron, PC • dbyrne@ansell.law • www.ansell.law

Jennifer Hawk, CMCA, AMS • CAMS • jhawk@camsmgt.com •
www.camsmgt.com

Kristine Bates, CMCA, AMS, PCAM • Associa New York • kristine.bates@associa.us• www.associanewyork.com
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Hosted by AssociationHelpNow® | Practical insights for managers and boards who live this every day.

This content does not constitute professional advice.

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#HOA #CommunityAssociations #HOAManagement #BoardGovernance #PropertyManagement #CondoBoards #Groupthink #Leadership #AssociationManagement #HOABoard #CAM #CommunityManagement #BoardMembers #Governance #HOALeadership


SPEAKER_01

I'm Ray Dickey from South Carolina and Hudson Valley CAI, along with Association Help Now. We are covering many states. Today, our topic is psychology of cults and dysfunctional boards. And also, I added governance turns into groupthink. I did a lot of research on this. I found a lot of similar situations. So I think it'll be kind of fun to dive in and take a look at some of these aspects. If you are here for CEUs, everyone has a question and a comment feature. That's how we do our CEUs now. Just write in that question feature and say, I need CEUs. If you need CUs, that's what you need to do. So just make sure you click on there and you put I need CEUs. And with this version, you need to be here for the hour for CMI C B, but use that comment feature. Let me have our board introduce themselves. And I didn't make a board slide, but that's okay. I'll use this one. All right, let's start off with who I see first, and that is Dave.

SPEAKER_02

Uh good morning, everybody. Uh I am an attorney with the law firm of Ansel Grim and Aaron, and my community associations group uh represents uh co-ops, condominiums, uh, and homeowners associations in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. All right, and Jennifer Hi, everybody.

SPEAKER_00

Happy Tuesday. I'm Jennifer Halk, and I am here with Associa Cam's Management Group in the Myrtle Beach, South Carolina area.

SPEAKER_01

And this is the first time you've been here, right, Jennifer?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, thank you. Thank you for mentioning.

SPEAKER_01

And by the way, Jennifer knows everything about medieval times. So if you have any questions about medieval times, you can send them to me and I will ask Jennifer for you.

SPEAKER_02

She was the marketing the restaurant or the or actually medieval times, like the times of medieval.

SPEAKER_00

Jennifer, if you worked there, you had to know. I was marketing and sales director for medieval times dinner and tournament for 10 years.

SPEAKER_01

So it's both, probably. Dave, it's the whole it's the whole show with the horses and sword fighting and everything. All right, second of their nine castle vacations.

SPEAKER_02

And the horses weren't harmed in any of the any of the shows, right?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, no horses were harmed in the making of any show.

SPEAKER_01

And Christine.

SPEAKER_04

Good morning, everyone. I'm Christine Bates. I'm the branch vice president for Associ in New York. We're located here in the Hudson Valley area of New York.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So the psychiatry of cults and dysfunctional boards, governors turns in the group think, I am not accusing boards of being cults. Okay, just to get that like out of the way right away. I am just talking about similar characteristics that they can fall into. It's not about cults, it's about behavior today and patterns. This happens in all kinds of groups. It just doesn't have to be related to our industry. And this even happens when people have good attention, uh, good intentions. You know, Christine, in our industry, how often do you think people get off track even with the best of intentions? I think it's a lot.

SPEAKER_04

Very often, yes.

SPEAKER_01

And Jennifer, do you agree also?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absolutely. Steering and driving boards, as I say, going in the right direction is super important.

SPEAKER_01

But you know, they do get off track. So this is a great live stream for you to take a look at your own board or maybe even yourself and see if you're falling into some of these traps. All right, so what is something similar that a board would expect that may be the same as a cult? And there's just four of these items here. Conformity. Dave, do you agree that a lot of boards, new board members feel very obligated to conform with the current status of the board?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, unless they were unless they joined the board as part of a um oppositional wave, you know, a um uh a transition type election campaign. Otherwise, yeah, they will themselves feel a great obligation to conform, which is a normal thing when you join an organization. You're generally should listen before you speak when you get involved with something. Um, but uh that isn't always good either, too.

SPEAKER_01

So it depends on the situation. Well, we're gonna talk about that today. It's definitely not always good. The other one I had was control, Christine. Control. A lot of people feel like when they join a board that they want to be in control of many, many situations, or they're being controlled sometimes. They don't feel well. Do you agree with this?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, I always feel like when you have any type of group and any type of setting, there's always at least one person that generally takes over and feels the need to become the leader of the group and wants to be in control.

SPEAKER_01

The leader, right, exactly. The other one I have, Jennifer, in audience, I'm interested in what you think. Loyalty. A lot of people get on a board, Jennifer, and even if they're like Dave said, they're they they're the opposition and they get on board, all of a sudden they realize maybe the circumstances aren't what they thought, and they have a sense of loyalty to the board, not the association to the board. Do you agree, Jennifer?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, sometimes you can find that you know the board members are put into a situation, these are their fellow homeowners and maybe even their friends too, before they join the board. That loyalty can play into the scenario. And sometimes board members join the board for the wrong reasons, too. Um, so it's always uh right, in my opinion, uh, to encourage your board members uh to understand that when you become a board member, absolutely your loyalty to be to the association, the governing documents, and what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01

So the last one I have is I don't know if anybody's gonna agree with me, but this is based on my research. Uh, boards can become isolated. Dave, I I think they really can. Um sometimes there's a hot topic going on, uh, negative interactions. They definitely, I think, pull back a lot of times from people in the community that are hostile towards them. I don't know if we can blame them, but do you agree, Dave, that they become they can become isolated? Sure.

SPEAKER_02

I think I think boards are in a lot of ways just the same as any governmental structure. Um, the ivory tower, elitist sort of isolation aspect that you get, regardless of ideology or party. You know, it's um, you know, you get to a certain point, you sort of in the echo chamber of where you govern and you you forget sort of the needs and the interests of the people that you're you know you're elected to to serve.

SPEAKER_01

So I already got like three comments in regard to loyalty, which I love. Thank you so much for sending them. And one is um, can you define loyalty? Can you define loyalty? Um, you know, Dave, I think in this case, um I'm looking at loyalty in somewhat, I hate to say a little bit of a negative aspect, maybe loyalty to the board instead of loyalty to the association, which Jennifer touched upon. Dave, do you want to add anything to that? I meant they're asking for the definition of loyalty, but it's pretty broad.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the loyal uh a board member has an absolute legal duty of loyalty to the corporation, to the association, uh, no obligation to the board, uh, whatever that even means, um, or uh duty of loyalty to individual people. Uh the duty of loyalty is only about the the entity. Uh, and in fact, sometimes your duty to the entity would conflict with your your duty of loyalty, uh, your duty of loyalty to the to the corporation, to the association would conflict with what you think your duty is to your fellow board members.

SPEAKER_01

But can we acknowledge that many board members, Christine? Can we acknowledge that many board members do develop this sense of loyalty to their fellow board members? After all, there's politics involved, they want to get things done, and it could get confusing on board members, and we're going to explore that today. But that does exist, it is an issue in our industry. Do you agree, Christine?

SPEAKER_04

I think that again, that's where the human nature comes in, where you know you're working with these people, you're getting closer, you're working on a you know, a common ground. And I think sometimes that happens without people um necessarily wanting it to.

SPEAKER_01

Um, no one ever wants to be on a board, and those are some of the reasons why I have a new board member questioning every decision I ever made for the past three to five years. When given the actual details, her eyes become wide open because she's only heard them through the grapevine. And thoughts on board members who have loyalty to their friends and not loyalty to the board and the association. I didn't really plan on exploring that aspect today, but that's just why I love when the audience chirps in, Jennifer, because I didn't even think about that aspect of it. But definitely, right, Jennifer, loyalty towards the people that got you there.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. One of the most important things I feel like as a manager is educating the board to make sure that they understand what is the right direction in which you need to drive the association. Uh, what are your obligations to the association for the documents? And that drives right along the line of loyalty because they have to abide by those governing documents and be loyal to the association. And sometimes we don't always agree with the docs.

SPEAKER_01

That's for sure. Um, why this topic matters, it can impact decisions, it can uh affect the liability because you put the association in bad positions. You can cause damages and you can lose the trust of the owners, and it could be very hard to detect, Dave, because sometimes I think we're asking people to evaluate themselves, and it's hard to see yourself sometimes, Dave. What have you seen with words?

SPEAKER_02

Um Yeah, I think it's I think it's I think it's very um I think it's very difficult. I think um I think I really think it's but really I guess it really depends on the individual situation because I think it depends on sort of why you why you volunteered in the first place, like what your goals are. Sort of like, you know, the analogy would be if you run for your you run for your town council because there's a stoplight and it you just can't get fixed, and you just run because you want to take care of one issue. Uh there's that that type of person, and then there's the type of person who thinks that maybe you know the overall community needs their help. I think it just really depends on sort of what what the purpose, what your purpose is, what your reason for doing it is.

SPEAKER_01

And I think what we're talking about here today is groupthink, meaning you kind of get on the board and you only kind of start thinking within that little bubble. Um, Christine, I think this happens all the time, and I think this is a prime example of good attentions. Somebody joins the board with the best of attention, and this could be a negative, and we're going to talk about that. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_04

I agree. And I think those questions that you just had, you know, they're good reminders for board members to kind of keep in their mind as they're making decisions to just remind themselves, you know, that they can speak up if they want to, and they should.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. But um, Jennifer, a lot of people they desire harmony. I meant most human beings want to get along with other human beings. Um, some people are not very nice. They want to suppress dissent, they want to give the illusion of agreement, and then the poor decisions follow. You know, I'm not putting you on the spot, Jennifer, with your boards, but I definitely see this in the industry and it kind of contradicts itself there, but it's definitely there. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the dynamics and the makeup of the board uh can definitely be interesting and can impact the association in major ways, depending on whether the board is harmonious or whether you have a board member who you know is loyal or or has uh self-motivated intentions.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, someone has a question for Christine and Jennifer. Do you think a non-harmonious board is a negative? Christine, interesting.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, I I do think that if it's non-harmonious, it can be a negative because if there's you know a lot of conflict going on, um, you know, other board members can feel stressed out. I mean, it could be affecting things. I think there is a way to have a harmonious board, but also have differences and disagreements and you know, but just do it in a professional way.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I have to look, I don't know what harmonious actually the definition of it is, uh, Jennifer, but um we definitely want people to express their own thoughts though. And, you know, so maybe it wouldn't be harmonious. I'm not sure. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, I think we use that word a lot in community management, harmonious, is we want everything to sink and sing along in harmony, as I usually say. Um, but it can be interesting when you get the mix of dynamics on the board, as in anything else. Um, when you have a board that's not getting along when you have creative input, it's different from when you have uh someone who's intentionally being malicious and disharmonious or not being harmonious with the rest of the board members because it's a contention fact or there's an underlying reason.

SPEAKER_01

But Dave, do you think we're I'm kind of reading through the comments here too. Do you think we're expecting too much? And I and I actually agree with the person that sent this in. We expect too much when we expect someone to join a board with a bunch of strangers and make important decisions and expect it all to be all butterflies and stuff and everything, and it's beautiful. I meant it's gonna come with the territory, right, Dave?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know, I would hope so. I mean, I'm I'm not um I'm not one to advocate for um harmony so in for the sake of harmony. Uh, I don't find dissension or differing opinions to be problematic. I don't find um owners with contrasting opinions or that send letters that are adverse to a board member. I don't find them to be a problem. I find it to be a natural, important, healthy aspect of a free society. But I'm but I'm an outsider, I'm not a member of a board. I can see how it could be frustrating and difficult in that sort of, you know, um in that environment. But I don't I don't find that uh that harmony is any necessarily any better than the the um the need for a good loyal opposition.

SPEAKER_01

How about congenial? Somebody said that word over.

SPEAKER_02

Right, that's different. Yeah, to me, that's different. There's you can be, you can what's that what's that uh silly political thing people say you can disagree without being disagreeable? I think that's sort of like a good cliche to have. That's an important aspect. You should be you can bring you can bring difference and conflict, difference and um alternate opinions without being difficult and mean spirited and and you know uh you have you have to provide you have to provide the same respect and uh tolerance to uh people that you expect to get back to you if you're the minority on the board and your your position is not well liked or well favored, you deserve respect, but you need to show it the other way as well.

SPEAKER_01

So thanks for sending it. I think congenial probably would have been a better word than harm harmonia, harmony. So yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe. Um, groupthink, how groupthink forms on board. So we're gonna kind of dive into it right now. Um, and somebody sent over, and I love when people send me like the content and definitions, groupthink is a lack of diverse, is is a lack of diversity and a lack of perspective. And I appreciate you sending over. Let me catch up with some of the comments. It's also difficult when you have two board members that are backing each other when it comes to making immediate changes to maintenance, and vendors are pushing their own contracts, or a board member that is in agreement with a management company or sees other issues, a bunch of similar comments here. It's important to discuss the idea of consensus at the same time. If overridden by the majority vote, you need to support the majority. The problem arises when you have members who think it's okay to be toxic. Dave is touching upon that now. All right, so groupthink is gonna end up being a negative today. I think if anybody thinks groupthink is a positive. Um, has everybody heard of groupthink?

SPEAKER_02

I didn't well, the word the the word itself is is a is a um is a loaded word. It all depends upon the the language you use. I mean, groupthink, groupthink could be consensus. I mean, it all depends on the the word groupthink is of in and of itself a negative word. I would think I can't imagine that would be used in a positive light. Okay, well, we're not using it in a positive light today, right? I don't think I don't think you could ever use it.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think you could ever use it in a positive light. Small tight groups, repeated interactions, fall to social pressure, and they are avoiding conflict. And boards are especially vulnerable to this because they are small, volunteer-driven, and they're already coming in relationship-based. Christine, what do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, I think that um again, these are all concerns and issues that will come to, you know, come up when any small groups get together. Um, but I think as we kind of talked about, you know, delivery is everything. Um, so I do think that it's up to especially the board president to encourage everybody to have an opinion and to be able to speak freely. But then I think it's the duty of the board members. Sorry, the the lights go off, um, to express their opinion in a professional manner.

SPEAKER_01

By the way, Jennifer, Christine's light goes off and it's a drinking game. So a lot of people have a drink every time her light goes off. I don't know really if it's working because we have our live streams in the morning.

SPEAKER_02

I think her company's operating on um on this uh wind uh a wind uh turbine. So it's uh it's a light wind aid for that.

SPEAKER_04

Energy efficient and good for the environment.

SPEAKER_02

Unless, of course, you have no energy as a result of it.

SPEAKER_01

So I love the audience because boards are vulnerable because they are small volunteer driven and relationship-based. And somebody knowing this is completely backed that up. It's very difficult to act on your own beliefs when in that room or with a group of people, and that creates stress. I love the honesty, Jennifer, because sometimes you know we do it, other people do it. We get up here and we expect people not to be human beings, right? Oh, it's loyalty to the association, and you got to do this, and you should do all those things. But in reality, Jennifer, we got to let people know it's it's difficult, right? It's not easy.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And when you get that extra toxic board member in there who wants to nail the hammer and drive it home with everybody else, that can make it even more stressful for the other board members who are there, as everybody said, on a relationship and driven basis, just trying to make something good happen for the community.

SPEAKER_01

I love when you guys follow along with my slides. It makes my life like so. That's exactly that. Was the next one I had. The role of strong personalities. This will definitely send you down the wrong road. And, you know, everybody knows this, but we're actually going to like encourage you to like, how can you stop it? What can you do about it? Um, will you get backup on it? This would be someone that dominates the discussion, they set the direction, and everyone else has to follow, or you get involved in this stress situation. Others defer to them, and they their influence goes over the line and it becomes control. Dave, I would say this is one of the number one problems in our in our industry. I don't know if you agree. I do agree.

SPEAKER_02

I I do agree, and um, a lot of it stems from you know, sort of the idea there'll be sort of one board member. Like there, there's a there's a conflict between the natural and appropriate need for some corporate structure, meaning like the manager has one liaison, it's the president, and the president's job is to filter information. It would be difficult for a manager to have to respond to five or seven people all day and all the time. So that's one logical thing, and that but that conflicts with the idea that there should not be one strong personality, because there will be in in any corporate structure where one person is the conduit for all the information. This is the way it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

It's a very, very difficult conflict to to resolve. Who on the panel said something about the president? Was that you, Christine?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, the other thing I was gonna add to this is um definitely the explanation of the roles of the officer positions, as Dave mentioned, and then a timed agenda can help. Um, because you know, give everybody the time to speak their piece and then move on to the next one. I think that at the end of the discussion, really, you know, the motion should be made, a vote should happen, and you should move on to the next topic. I think sometimes what happens is, you know, the boards feel as though everybody has to be in agreement before they move on to the next topic. And that's, you know, not the goal. Not everybody is going to agree. So I think those are some tips to kind of help navigate that.

SPEAKER_01

So, Jennifer, like one thing I think people could take away from this, in my opinion, is that one way to get away from groupthink and take some of the control back from these dominant personalities is for who's ever in charge of the meeting to say, now you get a chance to talk. Now you get a chance to talk. Don't just say, Does anyone have anything to say? I've been this with my own board meetings for CI, where you go board member to board member because some people are uncomfortable speaking and interrupting other people. And if you give them an opportunity to speak, you'd be surprised. Many times instead of saying, I don't have anything to say, they have something to say. Jennifer, do you agree from that? Agree with that as a manager?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that. I think that uh that strategy absolutely would keep a board uh that has the railroading board member more in alignment because that person who's uh the dominant uh person on the board is always the person who's going to step up and answer all the questions and give their opinion. On everything. And uh, and I think it's also important to always, as I remind the boards, everybody has a has a voice here. There's five board members because the governing documents say we need five voices to be heard, and it's not just the uh everybody has to be in accordance or nothing would ever happen in an association. We just have to have the majority to agree.

SPEAKER_01

Now, Dave, to be fair, that's always been my opinion that um who's ever in charge of the meeting ghost through and gives everyone an opportunity to speak and ask them. But a lot of people disagree with me. I've done 500, hundreds of these panels, and I've had plenty of people get on there and say, you know what, that's not the way it works. You vote to get on the board, you run for the board, and it's up to you to take the initiative. What do you think? Interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I'll go back to, I guess, what I said before, which is it really depends on the situation you're in. Um I can see I can see all I can see every side. I could see the need for efficient, structured meetings, and then I could see the need for making everyone feel like they're part of it, part of the process. It's a it's a deft um uh touch that's required uh when it comes to management or leaders on a board. It's just very it's like other any other human organization, human interaction. It's a it requires a lot of different skills and um sometimes a heavy hand and sometimes uh a light touch.

SPEAKER_01

And I guess if it's the president, Christine, and they're the person that's which let's face it, I was I've been waiting to say this the whole time since I brought it up. Like I'm saying, oh well, the president could make sure he asks everybody to talk, but right, let's face it, like most of the time, the the person with the overwhelming personality that wants to drive everything a certain way, it's the president, right?

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, sometimes that can be difficult. And also I think that sometimes the presidents want to get their agenda accomplished, and so they want to, they don't want to encourage the discussion and the talking. They want to be like, okay, this is done, move on, move on, move on.

SPEAKER_01

So that's such good insight. Like, I didn't think about that. You're right. Like a lot of times the president is under pressure to have the meeting end at a reasonable hour. So maybe they're not being pushy, they're just trying to do a good job. Oh, poor presidents. I'm sorry, presidents. That is a really tough part of your job, actually, to move the meeting along and give everybody time to speak. I don't know, maybe you can't do both. I don't know. Um, somebody's asking about servant leadership. I don't know what that means. So if you could send that over to me, does anyone on the panel know what that term means? Okay, I'm in I'm interested in what you mean by that, so please send that over to me. The board president controls the thoughts and comments of other members and they hold the majority. This creates stress and unprofessional comments by those in the minority. Uncomfortable for all. Well, I think that's exactly what we're talking about here. I don't think that's a healthy board, and I think the thought process is going to be missing. Jennifer, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Um, again, there's a reason there are multiple contributors. It's so that you can hear the different reasons and different suggestions and different thoughts and and uh points of view on any given topic.

SPEAKER_01

Uh just trying to catch up with the comments. Servant leadership is a people-first velocity where leaders prioritize the growth and the well-being of their team over their personal ambition, aiming to serve first and lead second. Oh, okay. Proposed by Robert Greenliff in 1977. Interesting. I thought it was a negative comment, but it's actually a positive. Um, and a lot of people are commenting that they're they're just not heard at the meetings. So they're trying to be heard and they're not. Um, I think these suggestions can only go so far, and I feel sorry that you have to be in that position. Why dissent disappears? Why do people stop uh putting in their two cents, which is exactly what you don't want to have happen? Christina, putting you on the spot. You had no prep. Do you want to take a wild guess what one of the things I had down?

SPEAKER_04

Um, I think it's because of past experiences, because when somebody does the same thing over and over um and they're getting the same result, they just give up.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? I think you hit number three. I'm gonna show it in a second. Labeling them as difficult, labeling them as difficult. I think that's what you just said. Pretty, pretty amazing. And basically, this is why people stop disagreeing on your board. This is why people stop voicing their opinion. And this is how you're gonna end up with bad ideas if you don't have anybody feeling comfortable to have dissent. All right, Jennifer, totally putting you on the spot. If you don't know one, you want to take a guess at another reason why?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, I'm I'm with Christine. I mean, most of the time it's they just get fed up and it's, you know, we're tired of all the um it. I I think also it can be uh personal commitments uh related to that point of view. Um, you know, sometimes uh board members will shy away from certain topics for personal reasons as well.

SPEAKER_01

Fear of conflict, I have social isolation. I guess that means everyone will be mad at them and you know, we're not gonna talk to you at the pool anymore, which is pretty sad. Labeling them is difficult, which is what I think Christine said, and it's easier to stay quiet. Dave, do you think this is why dissent disappears?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's it's it's sure, it's like a it's not it's not it's part of life, part of what goes on in the world, and when people decide to speak up and make their opinions heard, and um sometimes they carry it out, sometimes they give up, and it's there's no different. I mean, a lot of associations are microcosms of the overall society. Uh and um there are many times in throughout history when you know there are few people who have the gust to speak uh about something and ultimately they're end they end up being vindicated, uh oftentimes.

SPEAKER_01

Do you agree that this is a negative for an association to be in this situation? Of course.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I think uh I think I think long ago our society at least decided that there was inherent value in uh dissent and free speech. And um, although that can create conflict and difficulty and isolation at the pool, uh overall society's better off if we protect the idea that everybody has a right to their opinion and to do their own research and that the governments and power structures are inherently suspect, and you can't just take what you're told uh always to be true because people have motives to lie, oftentimes.

SPEAKER_01

So here's an interesting comment descent can disappear if there's adequate information provided prior to the meeting, so conversations could be based on facts and knowledge. This is driven by the manager. I guess that works if there's an obvious answer to something that could be based on that, right, Christine? Uh something that doesn't require a conversation.

SPEAKER_04

You know, if the board is is meeting and for the first time they're looking at the agenda and they're looking at what they have to discuss, then yes, it's very hard for people to come up with an opinion on the spot. So ideally, if the information is sent in enough time for the board to review, then it makes for a more productive meeting.

SPEAKER_01

All right. So let me let me put you guys on the spot and ask you a hard question, okay? And I have kind of my research at the end telling how to correct these things, but let me throw it at you right now. All right. And there's a lot of them here, so we want to watch our time. Dave, what is your suggestion on how to stop this? How can you stop and not have dissent disappear? What can a board do? Who's responsible for it? Because we know it's a negative. Who's responsible to correct it?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know that it, I don't know that it needs to be corrected. I think it I think that I think Christine's point about or you know, comment about information. I mean, you're you're you don't necessarily need to correct correct dissent or differing opinions. You just you need to just be open and honest and transparent and and provide information. I mean I I think I've often found 30 plus years or so that that boards and and even if I'm in involved in a meeting or something, we're in a we're in a better position if we're able to say, this is the situation, this is what we think. It's a free country, you're free to have a different opinion, but this is what we think. Next question. Yeah, and you just move on. There's nothing you got to provide information, but even if you provide information, people could interpret it differently. There's no way to, there's no way to to to procure a hundred percent agreement on every single thing. I don't know what kind of society we'd have if that were the case. We're not looking for agreement, Dave.

SPEAKER_01

We're looking for giving dissent. I mean, removing dissent is agreement, isn't it? We're giving, we're looking for, we're trying to offer suggestions where a board could have a conversation instead of.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think providing providing information like Christine said, providing information and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right. And it's not fair that people have a fear of conflict, social isolation, labeling them as difficult and easier to stay quiet. Now, the answer may be, and a and a lot of panelists agree with this, and they happen to be attorneys, and I and I I think that follows the theme. Like, look, they got to stand up for themselves. Attorneys are really pragmatic and they they look at things kind of black and white sometimes, right, Dave? That's what you can pay for. Yeah. Jennifer, that being said, though, I meet a lot of other people that are very much interested in doing the best job they absolutely can, and they want to run a meeting where they feel there was a true conversation. What do you think, Jennifer?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm in accordance that if uh you can provide information up front and they have more uh and they're armed with more info and have more transparency and clarity about whatever the topics are that they're talking about, that dissension can be brought to a minimal point. But you're always going to have some board member that may have a personal reason for being an opposement of this or some other objective for that. So, you know, um I think it's all somewhat topic-based as well, and and how important are some of those topics to the efficiency, effectiveness, and the operations of the actual board and the and the organization.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like dissent was the wrong word to use, Christine, because I feel like everyone's looking at it as a negative, right? So here's a here's a comment, which I think is clear rules and they will foster open communication. If the president cannot do it, the manager should be able to take charge. So there, I think, is someone who kind of agrees with me a little bit that there should be an effort made to allow people to have a dissenting opinion. Christine.

SPEAKER_04

So my take on this is that looking at this from a little bit of the bigger picture here, I think this happens with familiarity with board members that have been on for years and years and years. They got their routine together. And I don't really think that the system is meant to really operate in that way because many communities have in their governing documents elections. So I would put a lot of this on the homeowners as well, because I think that you know, if the homeowners run for the board positions and there's turnover, then you will get more fresh perspectives. Um, because I think this happens in the beginning when everybody's fresh on the board, and then as time goes, everybody gets familiar and they get to the routine and they just keep doing everything the same way.

SPEAKER_01

I've got like two comments from presidents, and I'll just read the one that are pretty similar. As a president, I try to share as much information as possible, and unfortunately, fine members do not want to spend time understanding the information. So that would probably go the same with the board members. We're kind of giving presidents dumping a lot of stuff on presidents today, and we're in a lot of cases, they're single-handedly running the associations. I'm taking a quick break in here. You need to do the CEU option here. If you're here for CEUs and you're watching our go-to webinar system, if you're watching on YouTube, it doesn't matter. You need to use your question feature and enter I need CEUs. You need to enter I need CEUs in your question feature. Thank you. Giving presidents dumping a lot of stuff on presidents today, and we're in a lot of cases, they're single-handedly running the associations unfair. We know, you know, you know what's funny too, though, with Ray is that uh sorry, all right, Chris.

SPEAKER_02

I was just gonna throw in that that was an interesting comment you made because that sort of goes back to the what I tell boards sometimes is to use the be careful what you wish for a problem. People give me information, give me information. I want to be part of the solution, I want to be part of it. Be careful what you wish for. Here you go. Like that the you're saying the comment you're getting, Ray, from some board presidents. Here's the information. Then you find out they haven't read it. Well, then that gives you the political argument, which is dude, I gave the information, you didn't read it, so we're moving on. I mean, like it gives you that, you know, gives you that power, it gives you a little leverage.

SPEAKER_01

That's a whole other topic, Dave. I'm gonna let I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with it. Um, a lot of stuff about homeowners not paying attention. Loyalty versus fiduciary duty. I think we already touched upon this, Jennifer. Personal loyalty grows when they're on the board to other board members. We stick together. I feel like we promote that sometimes. Um, I meant I've seen that attitude promoted in other educational programs. Um, emotional decisions and duty gets blurred. We stick together, Jennifer. Um, a lot of there's a lot of stuff out there where say, well, we have to we have to be one unit when we stand up in front of the community. We can't let the community know that Bob voted differently than everyone else. Um, what do you think about that, Jennifer? People have a lot of different thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00

I have absolutely heard that said by the boards before that we have to give the appearance. Um, I think that in the uh I think that in the end, uh the most important thing is that whatever the element was that they made a decision on, that it was reviewed fairly and efficiently, and that everyone had a chance to voice their opinion, whether they voted, abstained, or or uh, or didn't vote for it at all. But there is that some kind of um perception that we need to present that to the association membership. But I don't know that that's a necessity.

SPEAKER_01

That would be, but I'll tell you, Jennifer, that would be the minority view because I've been doing a lot of these and people totally disagree with that. I agree with my opinion, is I agree with you um in a nice way, not keep arguing, but it should it it should be we stick together after all the vote in direction is said. That is by far the most common thought that I've seen in my experience. Yet I'm getting other comments. Um, every single board that I've ever worked for over the last big over the last six years have said that. This sense of um unity when they stand up in front of the community. Sometimes I think that gives the a wrong impression, Christine, but I will admit I'm the minority in that.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I think that's a little extreme. I I think that the board is a team when you think about it. You know, the president is kind of like the CEO, and you know, you have the whole board culture, and you know, it is it is nice for them to um, you know, be on the same page. I think with Jennifer, the way that Jennifer explained it was perfect, you know, that we've reviewed um, you know, the decisions and the board members all have a chance to put in their opinion and you know, but but having an ultimate, you know, being on the same page and you know, being in the same direction, I don't think is a uniform front for the community, I don't think is a negative.

SPEAKER_01

Um, even before you mentioned that, people had mentioned there's no I and team very much. Um so Dave, I want to I just want to be careful on our time though, but it's it's interesting, like the word team and groupthink. I know we're using groupthink as a negative, but being a team is not a negative, right? So um I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02

Being a team is not a negative, but um it goes back to sort of what you somebody said earlier, which is a team would be that you're allowed to have different opinions and different uh votes, different thoughts, but you stand you have to stand behind the decision that's made.

SPEAKER_01

That's a team, I think. Well, that's how democracy works, right? In a way, isn't it? Like everybody gets a vote and then you go with whatever the vote was. Yeah, it should be. Information control, limited discussion, selective sharing, side conversations, decisions are pre-made. I think somebody even commented on this, Christine, in the comments that I read. Um, this could be a problem, and this could definitely limit conversation and bring you to groupthink. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, I think um you have to watch the side conversations when you're a board member because those could really get you in trouble because you don't want to be giving certain board members an advantage of you know information that other board members are not um, you know, privy to. So I think that is definitely one of the things. Um, and I think again that a lot of this stuff board members don't even think about. You know, they may just be calling one of their board members to have a conversation and shoot the breeze, and they don't realize that now it's almost like they've made a political plea to this person, you know, to get them on their side before the board meeting even occurs. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that you know you got to keep in your mind.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, you're gonna get controlled outcomes, I have, instead of transparent governance when this takes place. Um, Jennifer, this happens though, right? Like human nature.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, just like Christine said, and a lot of the times it may be with innocence that they proceed into the conversation and it leads down the path to a full-blown discussion, and that board member all of a sudden is divulged information and et cetera. So, yeah, we we've got to keep it in the room of everybody needs to be on the same playing field and have access to the same information.

SPEAKER_01

Dave, I think there's a legal aspect to this, right? Yeah, I think so. But what is I think you're the lawyer. I'm I don't really want to, I don't want to really have to continue on anymore. But well, I think you could please share it.

SPEAKER_02

In terms of like sharing information, in terms of sharing information outside of the board, board members get let me ask the question.

SPEAKER_01

Could board members get together before a board meeting and have a conversation about a topic and have a and and then kind of maybe they don't even have to come to an agreement about a vote. Where's the line here?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's funny, not funny, ha ha, but it's it's funny because every state has states have different rules uh about those kinds of things, you know, in terms of what decisions you can make at it in an informal setting, what decisions have to be can only be made in in the context of an actual board meeting with certain notices and stuff. So there are legal issues as to what a board um uh can do, but there's nothing, there's nothing, at least in the states where I practice, there's nothing illegal about a board about board members coalescing around a position particular position before a meeting and agreeing to take a certain position. That's just a normal, normal operation. But as to the creation of a uh of an actual enforceable decision, uh some states require that to be done in a more formal, sort of transparent way.

SPEAKER_01

I don't want to get um too out of track here. I want to get make sure I get to our suggestions on how to fix these problems. But like there is a thing too, Dave, in some states, like if a bunch of board members are sitting around, they can actually become a quorum or something, right? It seems kind of silly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's a um yes, see, that's like a that's a public meetings type of concept. That's uh that's a thing that goes with like a township or a municipality, and there are local laws and state laws about how many elected officials can be in one place and what can they discuss without notice to the public. In the states where I practice, that's not a thing uh for associations. The the limit on associations is merely the creation of an actual decision. There's nothing wrong with with even the majority of the board members sitting a full board sitting around and being like, hey, we have the meeting this this week, let's do this, let's do that. There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01

Right, but some people in the audience are also saying those should be done though. Um, and a lot of people are making comments. There's there's rules in Florida. I don't know if it's true or not. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think it depends on it. Depends on the state. Depends on the state. This is definitely one where you want to check with your with your own professionals on the legalities of that. Some people are saying boards have codes of contacts they need to follow and things like that. Warning signs of dysfunction. Um, curious how many people out in the audience have these issues. You have board meetings, and maybe they're negatives or positives. I'll I'll ask the panel and I'll start with Jennifer this time. Jennifer, um they're saying my research, and look, audience, I'm the devil's advocate here. Don't like blame me. These I don't always agree with what's on here, but somebody's got to bring it up. My research, Jennifer, says that if there's no real debate, that's a sign of dysfunction. I don't what do you think?

SPEAKER_00

I think it depends on the topic. I mean, I don't know that all topics need a great debate. And I think we should focus our time, energy, and effort on the things that we do need to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I know. That that seems like a tricky one. Christine, and go back to the other one if you want to, but how about same voices dominate the conversation? I mean, I don't know how I feel about that one either. Is that really a sign of dysfunction?

SPEAKER_04

Um, no, I don't think so. I think that that goes again to you know personalities of people. I think some people are just the first to to want to speak and have a lot to say. So I I think, you know, if if that's an issue for the board, then letting everybody talk is, you know, a good way to counteract that.

SPEAKER_01

Quick ananimous votes. You know, Dave, I could definitely see like these could be negatives, but man, they're not, it's not set in stone. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02

I think things, some things are no brainers. I mean, if if you've got an open seat on the board and the board's the uh there's a five-member board and there's an open seat on the board, and the four board members who are left have decided to appoint uh a guy down the road, and why why why screw around with Why waste time? You'd like to make a motion to appoint Bob as the new board member. All those in favor, aye. I mean the meeting's over. There's no reason to, you know, there's no reason to to uh to you know, there's a difference between sort of the transparency and the openness vis-a-vis the owners versus that concept vis-a-vis just the board members. And the board members don't need to dilly-dally on certain things that don't require that. I think one of the ladies mentioned this, I think they made a comment earlier before, which I think was really good, which is sort of like you want to encourage people to volunteer for the board, and the more time you waste on silly things, is this is discourages volunteerism. So there are some things that are no-brainers uh that should be treated like no-brainers. I mean, you don't need to debate something that and in that case, a guy who's who's being difficult would be the guy who's being difficult. He's being difficult simply for the purpose of being difficult, as opposed to offering up uh alternative ideas.

SPEAKER_01

You know, Jennifer, sometimes it appears Dave's not paying attention, but he he really is, if you notice. Like sometimes he's eating sandwiches, he's fold the last live stream we did, he was like folding stuff. He literally was like a copy center the whole time. We multitasking, but he is listening to what you guys are saying. Uh resistance to questions. I I guess there it means that um that could be a sign of dysfunction if if any kind of dissent, I guess, is questioned. I I guess we shot that one down, except for maybe the last one. I don't know what the audience thinks. If you could send it in to me, uh emotional pressure in the room. Tell me if you've ever heard this, Christine. We've always done it that way. You ever hear that, Christine?

SPEAKER_04

Hear it all the time. All right, number one saying at a board meeting.

SPEAKER_01

And then, audience, if you want to send over yours, if we have time to get to them, I'd love to. Uh Jennifer, how about don't rock the boat?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, especially in my marina communities. Yes, absolutely. Um, you know, we uh sometimes the board members don't want to rock the boat, we just want it to keep on sailing.

SPEAKER_01

Be a team player, Dave. You ever hear that one? Board the board? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I that's a that's a uh that's a thing. Yeah, but we don't even know if that one's really a negative one. We've decided. And then subtle pressure for people to agree when these things are kind of said. It's it's really context. It's all context. Yeah, but it's right, it depends how if the person's being a jerk, though. Um, multiple times a disagreeable board member gets the thing shut down by the ownership in attendance. That when that happens, it's the best ever. Um, and then that when I don't get risk to the associations, bad decisions, legal exposure, financial impact, and loss of credibility. If this takes place and no one really has any conversation about anything, or if any everyone just agrees on everything immediately, observe the dynamics, encourage balance, provide structure, and stay neutral. Sometimes I don't understand my own research, Jennifer. Stay neutral. Board members don't have to stay neutral, right? They got they're supposed to have their own opinion. Why is that in there?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's I definitely uh they've got to have some opinion on things too. I thought that said community manager before that, but yeah, I mean the stay in neutral. Um, yeah, we want them to have an opinion.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe that's uh maybe that's poor poor AI language and what it really needs to stay open-minded, not neutral.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe probably a you really hate AI, Dave. Okay, how to break groupthink. We're finally at the guts of it. An audience, please send me your opinions. Oh, the manager needs to be neutral. Very good comment.

SPEAKER_00

I thought that said manager on the slide before that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, good point. The audience follows along better than I do. So thank you so much. Much appreciated. How to break groupthink. So we're finally going to offer like groupthink is a negative, don't get me wrong. I feel like we found it to be positive almost back and forth. But um, for the most part, if everyone's making the same decisions and not really having a conversation about anything, and people are being pushed into things and they feel uncomfortable offering an opinion, that's all negative, that's all cult-like, and that's all groupthink. Anyone disagree with my summary in the panel? Yay. Okay, Dave usually disagrees with me, Jennifer, but we'll see. Uh oh, that was because you you do that with yourself. You didn't read that from AI. That's why. Disagree. A manager cannot be neutral if you have more experience than the board members. You have to be able to express what you know. Good point. I think you know what? Great point. 100%. Man, I just flip-flop. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00

The manager should be the guiding light.

SPEAKER_01

I know. All you need is to discuss inclusion, all you need to discuss inclusion, and no one will be willing to serve. And a lot of people are saying good points. Okay, to break group think. Christine, invite dissent. I think we've talked that one to death so far. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I think um this is where some board member training could also come in handy, you know, letting everybody know what they're supposed to be doing when they come to, you know, what the role of a board member is, what they're supposed to be doing when they come to the meetings. Um, you know, because just going back to basics, you may have new board members that are really not sure if they're supposed to speak up or what they're supposed to do. Um, so I think that that comes into play too.

SPEAKER_01

I'm all for this one, Jennifer, but I've actually learned from the live stream today that it's not as easy as it appears because, right, some of the reasons we discussed about inviting different uh different opinions, presidents, right? Can you run with it, Jennifer? Everybody has this this could be good or bad.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the reason why the governing documents say that there are multiple members who will be on the board uh so that you can uh intake all the different opinions uh of the members in the association and hopefully invite those open-ended discussions and uh get information on topics that are relevant. Um, and it's always interesting when I look at the docs. Do we need one to three board members? Do we need three to five, five to seven? Uh, so that can be uh a wide range of uh invites there on how many people we need to invite into the conversation.

SPEAKER_01

I love this comment. Thanks for sending it. Inviting dissent. I've tried it, no one wants to hear. So, you know, here we are having a big conversation, and then there's presidents out there, people in charge, or nobody want, I guess people just want to go to the meeting, right, Dave, and get the heck out of there. Um, yeah, I think so I think so.

SPEAKER_02

I think there's a um, I think we have to marry the invite dissent thing with invite um empowerment. Like, yeah, I think board, I think board members have do have an obligation to to learn and get information. Uh and I I think that um when you do dissent for dissents per for simply to be a dissenter, you're causing more trouble than that's not really what what transparency and and free speech and such is meant to foster. You'd have some, especially on a board where you're a fiduciary, you have some obligation to get information to learn, which is often why people join organizations like boards and they sit quietly for the beginning and they they learn um before they speak.

SPEAKER_01

Practical tools, I think this falls into play here. You could have a if you want to have I hate using the word dissent, but I guess I'll keep using it. Have a round table input. You just go around everybody, devil's advocate role, which I do a lot here, anonymous feedback, I don't really know what that means, and structured agendas. I think structured agendas are huge, right, Christine? That'll make things go easily. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think that if you're having going planning on having a huge discussion on one topic, that it may not be a bad idea to break that into a separate meeting at another time because sometimes you know you don't want the board meetings to go three, four hours. Um, so if it is a hot topic with a lot to talk about, you may want to consider moving that conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Interesting comments. Uh, Jennifer, Dave is right, but some members are not fit for the job. Volunteers could be anybody. You gotta really push coming to the meeting, ready to discuss agenda items. And last comment here manager equals devil's advocate. I think we're gonna have to save that. I love that as a topic. Manager equals devil's advocate. We don't have time, but Jennifer, what do you think about those?

SPEAKER_00

That's a whole webinar right there.

SPEAKER_01

It is. That's a great comment. Um, what do you think about where we are so far, Jennifer? Um, with the comments that we heard.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think there's just some really great comments that are pertinent to what we're talking about. Um, and for the managers on the in the uh uh realm out there that are watching this, they're uh giving different comments from the board members that are watching this as well. So it's always interesting to see the dynamic feedback.

SPEAKER_01

And the person that sent me the devil's advocate thing, if you I know they know me. Can you email it to me? Because I I may rope you into the live stream, but if you don't have to do it, if you don't, because I think that's a great topic. Let me hit with some suggestions on things that you could say if you want to use. I just want to pause for a moment. Let's say, like, no one's getting to provide input and things are out of hand, and you think you have a group think situation. I just want to pause for a moment. Are we all actually in agreement or are we just moving forward because no one wants to push back? Jennifer, you think that's going to go over well?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that's a moment when we stopped and asked for confirmation that everybody's happy in the room. Whether that goes over well depends on the dynamics of the members in the room. Um, but I think at that point we've done our due diligence, we've paused and we've given everybody a chance to step up and say anything that they want.

SPEAKER_01

Let's say it's an important decision and you don't feel people are discussing it enough. You could also say, I may be the only one seeing this this way, but I think we need to hear at least one opposing viewpoint before we make a decision. Dave, this is a very uh common um tool that boards use where they they actually assign this sometimes to someone must have an opposing opinion on major decisions. What do you think? Uh I've never heard of that actually before.

SPEAKER_02

Um, maybe Christine and Jennifer have on a more um foundational level. That's not something I've heard of. I've seen it done. I I know it's a part of a World War Z, the movie the movie that came out that was part of that.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. Um, Christine, have you ever heard of that? Someone, it's a major decision, and someone is assigned to play devil's advocate. You never heard of it?

SPEAKER_04

No, I have not.

SPEAKER_01

Um, Jennifer, how about you?

SPEAKER_00

I have actually, yes. I mean, sometimes I don't know that I think we need the devil's advocate. Sometimes, as we already said, things are no-brainers, or we know what the right decision is.

SPEAKER_01

So I like it if it's a big decision.

SPEAKER_02

It would make me nervous, but if no one it's a big part, it's a big part of World War Z. If you want to watch that movie, you'll see it.

SPEAKER_01

Um people can tune in for your movie reviews. We'll put it. Brad puts it in. It's cool. So your movie reviews we could do as a separate live stream. And if people want to tune in separately, they can. Okay, we'll do that as another segment. No CUs, though. All right, we've reached a consensus pretty quickly. Can we take a step back and make sure we fully challenge this from different angles? And I'll go to the last one here. I'm a little concerned that we may be prioritizing agreement over discussion right now, and that could lead to decisions we may regret later. Dave, I have a funny feeling you hate all these, but comment.

SPEAKER_02

No, I mean that's that's uh that's a logical sort of cliche. Um yeah, there's always, as I said before, it's there's oftentimes the one uh there's a person who has a different opinion uh that only years later you you find out uh he or she was right the whole time.

SPEAKER_01

I love this. Here's this is from a manager. I tell my board, you pay me to be the devil's advocate. I agree. We've got to definitely do that as a live stream. The supporting, because there'll be legalities involved with like how far can you go and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

I love the devil's advocate.

SPEAKER_01

I know, I love it. The supporting the supporting agenda research should point to the pros and cons. And just a bunch of the same similar comments. All right. Building a board, I'm gonna fly through this and we'll go to, I want to give you guys plenty of time for closing thoughts. Transparency, open discussion, respectful disagreement, practical tools. We already went through. Final takeaway. I do believe this could be a problem for a board. It could start subtly, it can happen anywhere. Awareness is the key. Behavior drives governance. You do not want to have root think, even though I felt we're all over the place. All right, Dave, I'm gonna let the managers go last. We have uh three minutes here. What is your closing thoughts on today? I'm taking a quick break in here. You need to do the CEU option here if you're here for CEUs and you're watching our go-to webinar system. If you're watching on YouTube, it doesn't matter. You need to use your question feature and enter. I need CEUs. You need to enter I need CEUs in your question feature. Thank you. All right, Dave, I'm gonna let the managers go last. We have uh three minutes here. What is your closing thoughts on today?

SPEAKER_02

Uh my closing thought on today uh is that um it's a this is sort of gonna seem obvious, I guess, but it's a very delicate balance between uh the need to be efficient, to encourage volunteerism through efficiency, uh, and the need to avoid um um intimidation, I guess is maybe the right word, uh, uh, of a possible alternative um appointment, uh point of alternative view. But in the end, people who are on a board have an obligation to inform themselves and learn uh before they are oppositional. Uh being oppositional just for the sake of being oppositional is not helpful. Uh but being oppositional once you feel like you've got enough information to be able to make a point could be useful. But you you can't have one without the other.

SPEAKER_01

Uh Jennifer.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, thank you. Well, definitely this is one of the more extreme sides of community management and where we have to deal with personalities and clashes and the things that can turn into uh you know power struggles right in front of our allies. Um, but I think that as uh Dave's already said, that um it's uh it's a caveat of the board and of the organization, and that um boards being harmonious and uh having a variety of different personalities is always something that we're going to have to uh learn to uh struggle with and to do our very best with to accomplish and to help the boards that want to be dysfunctional from not being dysfunctional by educating them and providing to them the resources and tools that will help them to be better board members for their organizations.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, Christine, I started off having a thought process on this. Um this is a this is a real thing. Governance turns into groupthink, and I feel strongly you don't want this to happen, but I feel like the audience helped dictate the kind of I think my I think like I learned a lot from today, and I learned it from the audience. Um, I thought it was interesting, but go ahead, Christine. Closing thoughts.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no, I did as well. Um, and it is it was really interesting to hear the thoughts from the audience as well. I think being a board member, as I said before, is really a thankless position. And especially if you're here watching this and you're a board member, that means that you're trying to do the best that you can for your community. And there's just so much to consider. So I just think that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, as we we had some really good tips here, you know, with the potential, you know, timed agendas, you know, just making sure that you're giving all the board members a time to speak, you know, deciding whether sometimes you need to have a longer conversation about something and deciding whether it's a no-brainer and you just want to move on. Um, but yeah, I think that just being here is a step in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I want to thank everybody being here and thanks today for audience. It w you were a huge help today. And I hope to see everybody next time. And that's it. Bye, everybody. Thank you so much. Great, thank you.