HOA Know-It-Alls — The Psychology of How to Handle Them

HOA Know-It-Alls — The Psychology of How to Handle Them

Every community has one… the “know-it-all.”

They’ve read one statute, watched a video, or used AI—and now they’re ready to challenge management, the board, and even legal counsel. Sometimes they’re right. Often they’re not. Either way, they can disrupt meetings, create confusion, and undermine confidence in leadership.

In this session, we break down the psychology behind know-it-alls and, more importantly, how managers and boards can handle them effectively—without escalating conflict or losing control of the room.

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/BkKDswlMq9U

OnDemand 1h CEU Video - HOA Know-It-Alls — The Psychology of How to Handle Them. Available to watch Jun 18, 2026 from 6:00 AM - 8:00 PM EDT.

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1935027669822013526

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What you’ll learn:

• Why know-it-alls behave the way they do (and when they might actually be right)

• How to respond without getting pulled into unproductive debates

• Practical phrases and strategies to defuse tension

• When to rely on professionals—and how to communicate that authority

• How misinformation spreads in communities (especially online) and what to do about it

Panel:

Kristine Bates, CMCA, AMS, PCAM • Associa New York • kristine.bates@associa.us • https://www.associanewyork.com

Thomas Claus • Leisure Village Association • tclaus@leisurevillagenj.com

Raymond Dickey • AssociationHelpNow.com • ray@brainerdcommunications.com • https://www.AssociationHelpNow.com

Taylor Hayes, CMCA, AMS • CAMS • thayes@camsmgt.com • https://www.camsmgt.com

Hosted by AssociationHelpNow® | Practical insights for managers and boards who live this every day.

This content does not constitute professional advice.

#HOAManagement #CommunityAssociations #BoardLeadership #PropertyManagement #HOA #AssociationHelpNow

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Hello, I'm Ray Dickey from South Carolina, CAI, Hudson Valley CI, and Association Help Now. We are in many different states. Thank you so much for being here. HOA, the know-it-alls, and how to handle them. I think everybody knows a know-it-all. Everyone has a question feature. Please use it. We love comments. We love questions. I love having the program take a turn that the audience wants. Use it. I don't use anyone's names. Feel free to ask whatever you would like to ask. Keep in mind though, I could make a mistake. So don't send anything to top secret. Oh, and some people already know the CEU routine. I appreciate that. If you need CEUs, use that question feature and type CEU. Or write, I need CEUs. Whatever you want to type. I just need to know that you're there. So I could let whatever educational body we're involved with know that you were here. And I'm going to ask for this two more times. So you need to do it and you need to be paying attention. So once again, use that question feature. And if you're watching the recording version, you also have that same option. Use that feature. I need that for these governing bodies. Great. With that being said, I'll have our panel introduce themselves with who I see first, and that is Taylor.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Good morning. Um, happy to be here. I'm Taylor Hayes, and I'm with CAMS in our Columbia, South Carolina market.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

All right. Uh, Christine.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Good morning, everyone. I'm Christine Bates. I'm the branch vice president for Associa New York, located here in the Hudson Valley area of New York. And today I do not have automatic lights that will go off.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

I think you look like a newscaster today. It's so professional. I think it's your background. I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

It definitely, I'm sure it is. I could give a news uh weather forecast later if you're interested.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

I would love it. We would like that. So maybe look that up. Okay. We need it for the whole East Coast, though, and maybe Midwest. Uh Stacy.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Hi, everyone. My name is Stacey Patterson. I serve as counsel to the law firm of Anselgrim and Aaron. We represent Condos Co-ops and HOAs throughout the Hudson Valley, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Hi, Tom.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Feel Tom, feel feel free to stop by at any time you want. You know, maybe come in right in the beginning, maybe halfway through, whatever you want to do. I mean, we're here to accommodate.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

We had technical difficulties again this morning. I apologize. All right. Good morning, everyone. Tom Claus, um, the community manager in uh Leisure Village, Lakewood, New Jersey.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

All right. Well, thanks. I'm I'm glad you're here. Uh, know-it-alls and how to handle them. I have thrown some quotes in today. I hope you're gonna be impressed, Stacey. Real knowledge, real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. I think we're gonna be talking about that today. How much do know-it-alls know? How much do know-it-alls know? And I think I'm going in the direction of residents and even fellow board members. Tom, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Uh, it's definitely a subjective question. So, you know, you do have uh some know-it-alls out there that actually do know quite a bit, and then you have ones that think they know it all, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Oh, interesting, very kind of positive approach. Um, Christine.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, they say, you know, a jack of all trades is a master of nothing. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it at that.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

And Taylor, how about you? Um, how much do know it alls really know? Do they typically know or don't?

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Um, I kind of liked Christine's answer to that. Is I mean, typically they know a lot maybe about one topic, but not how it relates to everything else. But um, sometimes they're right on.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

And what we're gonna do today, Stacy, is we're gonna like start on the basis of why know it all are the way they are. We're gonna talk about how it impacts our history, and then we're gonna talk about things that people can do to help alleviate. Because sometimes, Stacy, this could be a problem, this could be disruptive. Do you agree? Yes, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

No quote. You want me to read my quote? A wise man never knows all, but a fool knows everything.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Oh, I like that we're getting in the quotes here. Very good. Um, I like to be able to do that. You know, you like you know, I like to prepare for these. You do, you are a preparer. Um, I have a board, I'd love the comments from the audience. Thank you. I have a board member who has been on the board for 20 years, and he is definitely a know-it-all. All things association, anyway. Leave the rest to management. Everything is relative, and people are giving a thumbs up on your commentary. I don't know exactly whose because of the of the timing. So sorry about that. Um, why are know-it-alls the way they are? They overestimate their understanding of complex subjects. So, this Tom would be an over a know-it-all that doesn't know what they're talking about, right? Do you see this?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I see I see that quite often. Um, you know, you see it mostly residents in in community meetings, but I get it quite a bit on as they eventually do become board members at some point. You know, the real active ones at the at the open meetings, community meetings are usually the ones that want some sort of change and then decide they want to run for the board. And you know, they come in with the um with the understanding or their self-understanding that uh they're gonna be able to change everything because they know everything.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Christine, do you think a lot of know-it-alls maybe know? I think one of you had mentioned one thing, and all of a sudden they think they know everything.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, um, they may have had some experience that they like to relate to all topics across the board. Um, you know, and to Thomas's point with the homeowners, um, I think a lot of these issues, they look a lot less complex from the position of being a homeowner. Um, and so they feel as though it's easy for them to solve and they're gonna come in with their, you know, related experience and and solve everything.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

You know, Taylor, I'm always impressed by the manager's perspective on things because I never thought about that. Right. They they they don't even understand what they don't know, I guess is what we're back at, right, Taylor?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the biggest compliments I've received is you know what you don't know. And I think that's a really powerful position to be in, but um, that's not always the case when it comes to homeowners. And that could be to Christine's point, like their experience in a different community they've lived in before, in a different state.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

You know, Stacey, I like to bring up this portion of the program too, so people know they're not alone. There's plenty of board members and managers out there that are dealing with a really annoying, even disruptive know-it-all. And if they hear that everyone is dealing with it, I think sometimes they handle it better. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yes, there's always at least one know-it-all, I feel, in every community that I've dealt with. And what's interesting is that most know-it-alls, they, you know, they speak from just thinking that and their agitation and not coming from actual knowledge. And when it's interesting, when you challenge these people and say, if you're really unsatisfied with the governance of this community, you know, you have a right to run for the board. And then those know-it-alls sort just turn to go full 180 and decide that they are no longer a know-it-all. They'll just go along with it because they don't want to rerun for the board, they want their answers for them, and that's really it. I actually have gonna get challenged.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

I actually have a bunch of things that people can say later to know it-alls that may be able to disarm them or at least get them off your back a little bit. Um, no, from the audience, I are know-it-alls related to scaredy cats. I don't understand that question. If you could expand on it, does anyone on the panel understand it at this point? Kind of.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

I mean, like I said, no, they have a large bark, but their bite is weak. They they can hide behind their computer, tablet, or their phone, assuming people still make phone calls or anything. But as soon as you like call go to call their bluff and tell them to come for a meeting or something, suddenly they don't they're okay. They don't, you know, it's there's a lot of strength that's behind the the keyboard. So they are scaredy cats.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

Oh, I didn't even think about the keyboard aspect. I was just thinking of like meeting people at meetings. That's a whole other thing going on here. I'm glad you mentioned it.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Most of the time they won't show up.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

They have a large ego and think it all should believe them. I think you just kind of touched upon that. And um, I know enough to know that I don't know enough. Yep. Well, that means you're not a know-it-all then. That's great, good for you. All right, Stacey, I see this all the time. They read one statute online, and all of a sudden they're an HOA lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Now everyone's got Chat GBT and they think that that's their lawyer. But what's interesting about these AI features is that you have to understand, and there are caveats at the bottom of each of these uh, you know, these new websites saying you better check. We can't guarantee that it's going to be 100% right. I mean, the law changes literally daily, you know, like you don't know what cases are coming down at the at the at the right at the time. So you can't be sure that you know it all. Oh my god, how many times are we gonna say that tonight today? A lot.

SPEAKER_05 9:58

All right, and we have like so many programs on AI coming out right now. We I I have like three of them in the works, so you want to be super careful. They watched a YouTube video about insurance or the law or a management, Taylor, and now they want to challenge the professionals. Have you seen this? I mean, you ask Taylor, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I I mean, absolutely. Um, it does happen, and I think again, as the management side, just remain confident in what you know and relaying that message. And um, you know, ask the person challenging you to provide more information. I mean, plenty of times they'll say, you know, this is what the CCNR say or what the law says. And I said, Oh, like that's great. Thanks for sharing. Send me a copy of where it says that, please.

SPEAKER_05 10:52

You mean that AI isn't my lawyer? Darn it, says the audience. I think in my experience, oh, now we're getting into it. How exciting! I think in my experience, the CPAs are the hardest to deal with as treasurers. Most of the time, HOA financials are done differently, cash basis, accrual basis. They are usually not open to learning because they know it all. Christine, I think we're gonna find common themes here. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yes, that I think that point really hits home uh for all of us. Oftentimes you'll see somebody on the board that has a lot of financial experience, whether they're a CPA, retired, you know, in some type of financial industry. And unfortunately, their experience is not fully relatable to the HOA financials because you know there's a lot of things that are different. However, they think they know it all, um, and they try to interpret this to the board and does nothing but create, you know, mass um, you know, miscommunication. And you know, then we have to figure out how we're going to retrain this person on the HOA financials. So it could be a difficult situation.

SPEAKER_05 12:07

I wish we had a CPA on the panel so we could play have fun with it, but we don't. So we're not going to pick on CPAs. Uh, the cats are people that are afraid of fee increases and that board and management are stealing and mismanaging association money, and they are also afraid of being targeted. So that is the explanation for that. What is the best way for the HO board to regain trust of homeowners after a know-it-all has moved out of the community and created doubt in some homeowners' minds? Historically, we have avoided complete transparency for being in fear of being attacked every time by that formal homeowner. Tom, I see this a lot where the board stops wanting to provide information because it gets twisted, it gets turned um because of know-it-alls. What do you think about this question? What's the best way?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, well, it's it's about balance, really. I mean, you is there ever a hundred percent transparency? I I don't believe so, because there's certain things that the board is dealing with that they can't often speak about, you know, the legal issues and whatnot. They can speak to it to a certain extent, but not a hundred percent. Maybe after matters resolved, uh, you know, through their association attorney give um better information or uh a more in-depth uh update on that. But as far as the know-it-all spreading misinformation, you know, I I I certainly believe that the board should uh answer back, whether it's at a follow-up meeting or in the association newsletter or using email of we followed up with this, we found out this, what they were saying was incorrect, they you they they were quoting the wrong statute, whatever, whatever the situation was, and get the right information out there.

SPEAKER_05 13:56

Isn't that a shame though? Isn't that a shame that we're in in this industry where boards want to be transparent and give people enough information and it may it may not be the course of action that is the most advisable for them to work? And I don't want to get sidetracked on particular topics like transparencies and things that we could just be here forever. Uh, a lot of comments from the audience. Isn't it a mistake to assume the know it all doesn't know what they are talking about? Many do research of law and they do know the facts. Christine, definitely, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Um, yes, they do research and they think they know the facts. I mean, as a community manager, I always encourage board members to check with their experts. I mean, I can't stress that enough. I just, you can read whatever you want out there. It doesn't mean that you know how to interpret it, that you, you know, didn't come across a fake website, that you didn't ask the question the right way. I mean, you you can't um not value the full advice that an expert is going to give you on a topic. I mean, I wouldn't go to my accountant to change the oil in my car, you know.

SPEAKER_05 15:03

I don't okay, viewer. I was kind of with you, but Christine kind of hedged her bets there. Taylor, um, at least I think so, Christine, if that's okay. Um thank you. Taylor, what do you think about this? Is it a, you know, it's a mistake to assume that a know-it all doesn't know what they're talking about. Many do research of the law and know the facts. That, you know, Christine's got a point there.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I mean, I think this is a typical like trust but verify scenario. I mean, kind of like I mentioned earlier. That's great. Show me your information you have, board to Christine's point. Who's the right person to answer this question? And it's probably like Stacey to make sure we're staying on truck.

SPEAKER_05 15:46

Okay. So, Stacey, I don't want to get sidetracked on a whole topic here. So, I'm going to do my routine where I ask you to give us a 30-second answer for a complex issue. What do you say to a board member who goes against the attorney's advice because that board member is a know it all?

SPEAKER_03 16:03

You just say for the record what your advice is, and that you advise them this is the way they should handle it. If they don't, you know, lawyers aren't there to tell you what to do. They're telling they tell they give you advice based on the law, based on the facts. These are our suggestions. But nobody tells the board what to do, essentially, except for the board. So we give advice and we say, listen, this is what you should do. They go against us, there's nothing we can do. We gave you the advice and you chose to go against it.

SPEAKER_05 16:34

This is an interesting comment. Communication is key. I hate the word transparency, but information is power. I wonder if we should do a segment on that, Stacy, about giving away a board giving away too much of its power if it is indeed transparency. Uh, we have a board member who puts out incorrectly.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

I don't know if that's giving away a power, though. I don't think they're giving away power, but I think that they should rely on what their attorneys say to them. And if they need information from these people that are accused of know-it-alls, they can go back and they can consult with their attorney about it.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

Oh, I I like my topic version a lot better. It's a lot more exciting, and people tune in for it. So your answer is probably right though. Um, we have a board member who puts out incorrect information via social media. What is the best way to counteract this? Before I go back to Stacey, Tom, have you seen this?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

I've seen that. Um, I certainly discourage our board members for uh using or putting information out on social media, especially ones that are not um an association-sanctioned site. So if they're using someone else's Facebook um, you know, forum, that's definitely a no-no. But what I work with our board, we designate someone um uh a media liaison, and typically any information that is put out by the board needs to be approved by the board.

SPEAKER_05 18:03

Another good topic, media liaisons. Um, Christine, board member puts out information via social media there and know it all. What do you have you seen this?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

I have, and you know, I'm a really big advocate for board members not posting anything on social media. Um, you know, personally I like social media pages for you know fun things, social events, stuff like that, not as an official communication channel for um a community, and definitely not for board members to go on there and and randomly, you know, put information out without consulting the board and management and you know, not having it approved.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

Taylor, I think I know what Stacy's gonna say about this. Do you think you know what Stacy's gonna say about this?

SPEAKER_02 18:52

I I think so. I mean, it's important to remember when you're posting as a board member, you are speaking for the entire board when you do that.

SPEAKER_05 19:00

Stacy, they have a board member who puts out incorrect incorrect information via social media. First of all, is that right? And what's the best way to counteract it?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Should consider whether that person should remain on the board, number one, because they're clearly not acting in the best interest of the community, they're clearly acting on their own self, you know, dealing, which is not protected by the business judgment rule, which is what you should boards should always be thinking whenever they're communicating or making decisions, is that their decisions are based on what is the best interest of the community. And a board member that gets on the board simply to do his own, you know, create his own platform and get what he wants is not someone that's doing the best for the community. And I definitely think that no one should respond to that to that statement on social media and actually should advocate for it to be removed and taken down.

SPEAKER_05 19:54

Don't do it. Okay. Um, if you are here for CEUs, I want to do this second check-in so I can get it out of the way. Because sometimes I forget to do them, Taylor. I can't help it. If you need CEUs, Taylor, can you tell people to do it? Because sometimes I feel like they don't listen to me and then they don't do it. So can you do it for me? Um sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

So if you need CEUs, Ray, what's the instruction? Does it pop up or do they just put it in the chat?

SPEAKER_05 20:22

They put it in the question feature.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Okay, so you have to use your question feature and let Ray know that you need CEUs. Don't forget to do it. Do it now if you need to.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

Don't forget to do it. Don't forget to do it. You need to do it. I need to send this to the governing bodies. They're very powerful, Tom. Very powerful. So they're actually very nice, but I do like to not know-it-alls, but they're not know-it-alls. I do like to follow the rules. I like to follow the rules because they they do have it hard. Now I gotta go back to where I was. All right, let's try to do some of the whys. Why are no-it-alls the way they are? And I'm gonna get to the other comments. Um, well, they they're less aware what they know, what they don't know. They avoid arguing point to point, like they love arguing, actually, point to point. Um, do you agree, Tom, that know-it-alls will they love to argue?

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Uh, some, some. I have uh a couple particular ones uh recently that don't want to hear the answer. So they come, they come up to the mic and they they start stating uh certain things the way they should be, and you try to explain to them exactly why, they'll just talk over you or they'll ignore you and they'll walk away. So the action they just want the backing of the crowd, they want to get the crowd all work.

SPEAKER_05 21:41

The excitement of the hoa crowd behind them. Um yeah, the action is you want to avoid arguing with them, point to point. Is anyone on the panel advocate arguing with people point to point?

unknown 21:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

Well, Stacy, you do if you're getting paid for it in court.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

No, but if they're at a if they're at a meeting and someone raises their hand and poses a question, which actually turns out to be a challenge, there's no point in the board trying to argue with this person because this person is probably just trying to get the other owners to be like, yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, but you could just basically shut it down by saying, we will take your um point into consideration and consult with our council, and we'll make the decision based on what our counsel advises us.

SPEAKER_05 22:28

The audience loves it, Stacey. Lots of lots of clapping. Um everybody goes to their attorney. Everybody looks to their attorney. I know, I know. Everyone just hates paying for it. That's how we hear that's why everybody hates paying for it. That's the only problem. Okay. Um, you should respond with documentation instead of opinions. Taylor, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Um, yes, I would say, especially for a board, I mean, you can really get into the semantics of the opinion, and it's probably just less is more, I think, in these situations. Um, give the homeowner or whoever it is the right documents and where they can find it. That information for themselves is probably the most efficient answer.

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Okay. And I'm looking at my notes audience, I think it's going to be fun. I have a bunch of examples of what makes the worst know-it-alls, it looks like coming up, whether they're lawyers or not. So I think that'll be fun if we get to it. I hope we do. Um, the next one I had, Christine, was move the debate from ego to authority. What do you think? What do you exactly mean by that? I think what this means is I do these things like five weeks previous to this. I think what it's referring to is don't get yourself worked. If you're a board member or you're a manager, take your ego out of it and see your role either as an authority or move it on to someone else. I think that's what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

You're actually yeah, I do think that egos play a huge part in these debates. And I I, you know, I hate to say it, but sometimes it's a red flag when you see people doing a ton of talking and not a ton of listening. It's right there, you know, you know what you're dealing with. Um, but yeah, at the end of the day, it's nothing personal. You have to make a motion, come up with a decision, and move on. And not everybody is going to um, you know, have their opinion chosen every time. So you have to be prepared for that.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

Nothing personal, but oh, so annoying, right? Um, somebody had asked me too, why don't I just put more bullet points? Well, the reason I throw the slides out here is I want to see what the panel says. So I don't want well-defined slides, I don't want to dictate the direction of the program that much. I want to give the panelists an opportunity to perceive these as they want to perceive them and offer commentary. And I like that, I think it's worked out well. Um, Tom, our attorney. This is what they're advising to say a good action move. Tell me if you think this would work. Our attorney has advised that the statue applies this way. And we're this is the board's perception. What they could say to a know it all, this is an action they could take to shut a know it all down or maybe appease them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Well, I think that's a fine answer. I mean, typically, uh, our community meetings, we always have our council present. So we usually direct those uh legal questions to uh council.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

But I don't know if it would work. I I put the slides on here because it's not my job to censor what goes on here. Um we're gonna go to you at a second, we'll go to you last, uh Stacy, because I'm curious to see what uh Christine, you think this would work? Our attorney has advised us that this I think they're gonna argue anyway. You mean with a homeowner or yeah, there's a homeowner, they're a know-it-all, and they're going on and on and on about the law. And a good thing to say, according to my research, I don't agree with it, is our attorney has advised that the statue applies this way. Do you think it'll work?

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Um, well, maybe a modified version of that, not exactly stating it that way, but again, I think it sometimes you just have to, like Stacy said before, shut it down. Here's the answer, and that's it, and you have to move on. So, and I do think an expert in the situation, you know, that's less risk for the community, they're signing off on it. So, yeah, I think it could be used in a modified in a better way to present it. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

How about this way, Taylor? Our attorney Stacy, who is a know-it-all and knows everything about the law, has advised us that the statute applies this way. Is that better, Taylor?

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Um, yeah, that's perfect. Um, but really, I think what the board should come up with what they want the communication to be. I think typically when that happens in a meeting, you probably know there's a good chance this could happen. So I think what you do more is focus on the board has done their job. They've consulted a professional party that's appropriate for this matter and say, you know, the board has taken this to counsel. We've been advised and made our decisions based on the advisement we've received, rather than um, you know, debating whether because that would turn into a debate of, well, you went to this attorney instead of that attorney. You want to avoid that.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

So, Stacy, I'm I'm serious. Do people really debate you as far as the law goes when they're not attorneys? And how do you feel about this?

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Um even attorneys that don't do this type of law try to challenge it as well. It also depends on where this debate comes up. If it's at a board meeting and we've never had any information since before this that they were gonna come up with this issue, the best way to set the best way, even if your attorney is sitting there saying, We will take this under advisement with our attorney, and you can follow up with us. Because putting your attorney on the spot is not going to be the best way all the time, is if if this issue is is brand new. And you know, if I was sitting there and I didn't, I certainly wouldn't make anything up, I would simply just postpone it. And a lot of times these know-it-alls, they come to the meetings just to sound off and to sound like they know they and they want their other owners to believe, you know, to side with them. Chances are they may not necessarily follow up with you, and it's not your obligation to to follow up with them. So if they're seriously, you know, uh challenging you, you put it in there, but you know, you you say to them, listen, this is a new issue. We're gonna have to consult with our council and you know, follow up with us in two weeks. And if they follow up with you, that's great. I mean, you also want to try to limit the amount of money spending to try to deal with all these know-it-alls. Otherwise, the know-it-all is gonna come back in two years and say, why did our fees go up so high? And everyone points to them. So that should be something that, you know, just because they're a know-it-all doesn't mean they, you know, you should cater to their every need. They have to be reasonable and realistic.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

I love your answer. So basically, um, I actually kind of learned a new perspective, and now I realize attorneys have been telling me this all for years, and I just don't listen very well. Yeah, don't put the attorney on the spot, put it on, table it and come back to it and give everybody a chance to regroup and get on the same page. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Be honest, Tom. You knew that already, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah, we do it. Um, yeah, most of the time, if if the question at the meeting can be answered by the attorney, he will answer it. If otherwise, he'll look into it and then get back to the board.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

Everybody on the panel knew it, right? Except for me. Okay, well, there you go. That's why I just asked the questions and follow slides. Okay, um, we have a homeowner who owns their own Facebook page, calling it the real page for the association and uses it to attack board members. How do we get the Facebook removed? Stacy, if it's okay with you, I don't want to waste too much time on this. Do you could you do something quick or you want to just table it for later?

SPEAKER_03 30:11

There's a constitutional, you know, right against it. I mean, people are free to say whatever they want. I mean, if they're not board members and they're not saying anything that could, you know, threatening or otherwise, you know, threatening, seriously threatening, not, you know, little empty threats, but they should send them a cease and assist letter desist letter to take it down. This is not, you know, the uh page for the board or anything else, like you know, not the official page. And you send that letter just to show, look, uh, you know, we don't agree with this. And so it looks like you're taking a step. And if it gets worse, you might actually have to go to the court to get an injunction if it gets to a point where it's it's out of control. But I've never seen that happen.

SPEAKER_05 30:55

So we've we've done this one before, Stacy. They can also go to fake, they can also go to Facebook sometimes, and believe it or not, they can sometimes get some action in that regard if it's if it's enough of a you know outrageous kind of situation. Um, do you have a problem with a board contacting Facebook? I've never we we've done whole entire sessions on it. Yeah, but we haven't we've done entire sessions on it and they can do that. I just want to Facebook gonna do about it.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

I don't know that they're i i mean I haven't looked into that.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

I'm not weird to argue whether it's a good idea to do that. All I want you to do, Stacey, is make sure I'm not telling something that their lawyer would advise them not to do. Do you have a problem with a border manager contacting Facebook about having a page removed?

SPEAKER_03 31:41

Um, they could try. And I mean, I don't know if it would work, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 31:47

Okay. Um how do you handle a board member know it all, but not on the committee that interrupts multiple agenda item discussions during a committee meeting by constantly running up to the podium, blah, blah, blah. Um, Stacy, really quick answer on this. I I think it's a kind of an easy one for you, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:13

I mean, I've never seen it happen, but I guess uh you know, you could just ask them to be respectful of the fact that the committee is trying to run their committee and you're not on the committee. Um, and we should allow them to do their job.

SPEAKER_05 32:26

No one has the right to disrupt any name. No one has the right to disrupt anyone. Correct, Stacey? Yeah, yeah. Uh, our code of ethics have a section regarding social media issues. Um, I had a board member that created a website on their own and put out negative information about the rest of the board members. We did send them a cease and desist. And I'm flicking through a whole bunch of the CU ones. I brought up the business judgment rule of my board once and got the response, yeah, normally that would apply, but not in this case. We are self-managed and we do things our way. Taylor, what is your reaction to that before we go to Stacey?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

I mean, my question would be, and what exactly is your way? I mean, I I don't think that will really hold up.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

All right. Uh Christine, same commentary as Taylor. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, I think that um kind of mentality is a little scary.

SPEAKER_05 33:23

Tom, we normally would that normally would apply, but not in this case. We are self-managed and we do things our way. Commentary.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

I agree with Taylor. Uh uh, you what does that mean?

SPEAKER_05 33:36

All right. Is this gonna work in court? What do you think, Stacey? They do things their way.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

The court will requ they will review the state on what they did based on the business judgment rule, which always applies to business, the board's decisions. Not normally, doesn't matter if you're managed by the biggest management company in the world or you're self-managed, the law applies across the board. And it is suggested that you, if you don't have management, that you consult with your attorney to make sure that what you're doing is proper under the business judgment rule.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Uh, people ask me about this. It would be neat if you had handouts about your responses and all that stuff. I don't like to do that because I have the panel here to offer commentary and I don't want to offer advice that I may have wrong. And everybody believes everything in a handout, so I don't want to put it in a handout. If I say something pretty stupid today, uh the panel's here to change my opinion. Um deferred to a professional. I think I even just said that. We have to explain one thing three different ways. All right, this boils down to the cats not engaging in secere communication. Question mark. Sharing one's opinion is great if they're willing to hear contract, contrary, contrary opinions. They look to proclaim, explore, build. Yep. Uh I guess with I'm paraphrasing this, they're saying that people that are know-it-alls just want to hear themselves speak, I think for the most part. Uh, anybody on the panel disagree with that? People asking about trademark issues on social media. I'm sorry, I'm gonna skip that one. An example of a know-it-all is their proclaminations. I pronounced it wrong. Can you pronounce it for me, Stacy? Proclamation. Proclamation? Thank you, thank you. About emotional support animals in New Jersey. They say our governing documents supersede state law. Oh boy. Okay, I mean I I think I know the answer on this one. Um, does anybody in the panel not think they know the answer? All right, so Stacy, to me, this is a prime example of a know-it-all, but this is dangerous because this could cause a lot of problems for the association because a lot of people are gonna believe what people say just based on how they present it. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Well, I guess there's there's a way of you know, people don't really respond or listen to people who are sounding off and sound and are loud. And if the board just maintains a civil response and and just follows along with the instructions or the advice we gave today, people will look. I I believe that people look to the board when they're acting rationally and not fighting back as a board who's probably doing the right thing. So if you maintain that you're not going to be fighting with people, because that is obviously not in the best interest of the community, um, and that you're going to rely on your experts. And I think that most of the owners will look and say, you know, I do believe or I do believe the board, and I am listening to them because this guy doesn't sound like he really knows what he's talking about. But then again, there are always people that will go along with the know-dall because they're just as they have similar opinions, but they're afraid to speak out. So they figure this is our sounding board, I gotta listen to what he says. But just because he's the loudest doesn't mean he's the smartest.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

Okay. I really we didn't even let you answer the question because it's so ridiculous. Um, Stacy.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

It is kind of ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 37:09

Do the governing documents supersede state law? Oh. No, this is such a man, this is such a stupid one. And then it's just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah, the whole and state law. I mean, the the emotional support animals also could trigger federal law. So, I mean, your governing documents don't supersede federal law either. All right.

SPEAKER_05 37:29

So, Tom, tell me if you think this would work with a know it all. A know it all comes up to you, Tom, and they're at the meeting, and you're up there as a manager, they're just questioning everything, and it's ridiculous. You say, Well, Abraham Lincoln once said it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Tom, I definitely would be thinking about saying it.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

You would not, darn it. Christine, would you do it and wear a big top hat? No, but I would love to witness that somewhere, Taylor. I'm gonna ask Stacy it would be acceptable or advisable for a board to put a top hat on and say that quote whenever a know-it-all speaks. Do you think Stacy's gonna say that's okay?

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I mean, I don't I I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

Stacy, is this a good way saying quotes from Abraham Lincoln wearing top hats whenever a know-it-all speaks? Can a board do it?

SPEAKER_03 38:36

No, I think they should dress as George Washington.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

That's why I say no. I was really hung up on the top hat, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 38:44

Let's be clear though, Stacy. So there's no misunderstandings, though. Would I meant I guess a board could do it, but you wouldn't advise it.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

I think that would just incite yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_05 39:03

Okay, um, some status signals, just to kind of backtrack a little bit. They try to signal intelligence in front of neighbors. I anybody in the panel disagrees, speak up. They love long speeches, they overuse legal terms. Christine, have you ever seen know it all overuse legal terms?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yes, and also repeating and repeating and repeating, and then once they hear the answer, they repeat and repeat again the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

Okay, I'd like to ask the panel, not right now because it's hard on the spot, but what is the most overused legal term you hear know it all say? Uh Stacy will know. Taylor, um, do you agree that a lot of know it all is overuse? Taylor, do you agree that a lot of uh you do agree? Sorry. Yeah, I agree. All right, Tom, do you have an overused legal term before we Stacy can't wait, she's all excited.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I'd say transparency is the one that's used often in my uh meetings.

SPEAKER_05 40:01

I'm gonna guess, Stacy, that it's you're violating my constitutional rights, but go ahead, Stacy. What do you have?

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Oh everyone thinks that they can buy, you know, that everything's a violation. Oh, um, what's another one? Discrimination is a big, big one that everybody uses. Um, like people use throw out these big words without actually knowing what exactly it involves. I mean, everyone thinks they know what discrimination is, but they don't use it correctly. I mean, you know it on the surface what it is, but it it's it's it's not a across the board kind of thing. You have to ask it as it is.

SPEAKER_05 40:40

Um, they love quoting statues out of context. Stacey, same thing? They think well, they're not gonna quote statues, they're gonna quote statutes, and yes, they will. Thank you. That's why I would never do it. I'm sorry. I wouldn't even use the terminology, right? All right.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

I don't know. I don't know about non-lawyers quoting statutes. I don't even know about non-condo lawyers quoting certain statutes that they really because I mean, like, I don't do criminal law, I don't consider myself a an expert on criminal law, and I wouldn't be citing statutes if I didn't know exactly how they apply to the particular facts at hand.

SPEAKER_05 41:19

I love it. The audience sent me, they got all excited too. They sent me in a bunch of stuff. Homeowners like to say, I pay your salary to managers. I'm entitled to those documents. That's a common theme throughout, and then a bunch of stuff about pets for some reason. Um, there's few public forums where residents can gain social recognition and influence. I think this is why HOA is our breeding ground for know-it-alls. Tom, do you agree with me?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I don't know. We have a lot of public forums in my community, way too many. But uh the biggest problem is now with social media, the independent uh social media websites that are people are just going and attracting not only the members within the community, but it's affecting new ownership because people outside the community are seeing what's going on on social media, and then it's impacting um negatively for that community.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

So here are some actions that people could take. Panel, I'm interested to see what you think about it. Uh, Christine, give them brief acknowledgement so that they feel heard and then move on.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah, I I definitely think that that's a great tactic to do. Um, you know, a lot another, you know, thing that you can do is if you're having a session where a homeowner um comes and speaks in front of the board, you know, nobody say anything. Give this person like a full five minutes to just talk up a storm, tell every little detail, just sit there and listen to that person uh the whole entire time. Because five minutes is believe it or not, a very long time for somebody to talk. So yeah, I think that giving that person their moment is a great uh tool.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

You know, Christine, I love your comment because I always say that. Let someone just go on and on and on and on, and they're gonna lose their audience. Like let them self-sabotage themselves. I don't think we talk about that enough and hear that enough. Um, Taylor, a lot of people won't agree with that, but do you agree with this? And what do you think about do they deserve some acknowledgement? What why don't you just run with it?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

I mean, I I think tip the best way I've seen it handled is kind of like Christine says, Give them their time. I mean, don't let them go over because some you could be there all night and then just say, you know, we've heard you, the board's going to discuss it and follow up with you, or whatever the board agrees to in response to that after. But it's definitely not the time to start arguing over. Them there.

SPEAKER_05 44:02

Tom, I'm curious, what do you think? Just letting somebody go on and on and on until like they almost turn off their own little following.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Well, uh, you certainly have to acknowledge that what they said. Um but we we set time limits, so you can't go on and on and on. So we we we put three minutes and uh if you go beyond that, we actually have a device that we can hit that kills the mic. So if it becomes disruptive, then we could suspend the meeting. But we don't let them go on and on and on. Is it like a water balloon or something? It's just a red kill switch. We keep it on the the on the day and the board president can hit the hit the button whenever.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

Sounds scary. Red kill switch? Okay. Uh Stacy, what do you think about this? Um give acknowledge switch.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

I would do a uh yeah, no, I would do the the trapdoor, have them come up to the microphone, and when their time is up, they just go down. Um I think that time limits are key. Um you know, you have a QA, you have a QA section of your meetings. You say we're limiting everything to three minutes. And if you don't have time to finish your, you know, your statement, you can see us at another time. You know, sometimes it's better to let them ramble off on some sort of papers because then you can hold that against them in court. But that's just me being a lawyer. But um I would, you know, you just like I said before, you just say thank you for your, we'll take that under advice and we'll consult with our counsel and get back to us and we'll get back to you. You know, that's you have to acknowledge them. They're still a member of the community. I mean, you can't just say to them, you know, you sound like someone is just a troublemaker and we're not interested. They're part of your community. But the other thing is that they have the right also. I mean, I haven't seen one document in 26 years that doesn't show a right to ask petition for a special meeting if you think there's an issue that needs to be addressed. But again, people don't go through all those, all those, you know, those hurdles to get that special meeting because it's annoying. You got to go around and get a petition. And you probably, you know, those people kind of lose steam after a while. So I think, yeah, I think you have to kind of you have to respond to them, but you know, keep them at a calm level. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:20

So here's an example, audience, and I'll ask the panel, you know it all comes up. You clearly spent time looking into that, Joe. Let's have council review that interpretation and report back. Maybe you could say your interpretation, Joe, and report back. Taylor, what do you think about this response?

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Oh, I mean, I think it's fine. I would probably be mindful of the tone of delivery of that, but otherwise, I mean, I think it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:50

Well, I'm adding my tone to it. You could say it a lot nicer ways. Uh, Christine.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, I think it's, you know, respectful, polite, and it's it's going with procedures because that's what we're supposed to do is, you know, take in the complaints, you know, take in the ideas, and then, you know, think about it, discuss it, consult the experts, and get back to the person.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

How's this sound, Tom? Tom, you clearly spent time looking into this. Let's have council review what you have found out and we'll report back to you.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

No, I'm fine with that. If they had any particular documentation they brought with the meeting, I would request that as well. So council can review.

SPEAKER_05 47:30

Would you be fine with my first version? I like this current version. All right, Stacy, you have any issue with this? What do you think of it?

SPEAKER_03 47:40

I would say yes, I would yes, I do. I first of all, when you come from the Northeast, it's very hard not to sound sarcastic saying that because when you said it, it's very hard. Maybe in South Carolina, it's a little different, but all you I think what you need to say would a little easier saying we really appreciate you looking into this, because then you're kind of stroking the ego that they want stroke to begin with. You know, you you we appreciate that you looked into this. You know what? We're gonna have our council review it and we'll get back to you. You know what I realized sarcastic because you know, coming from me, it sounded like this.

SPEAKER_05 48:11

You know what I realized though, that um we're making it every know-it-all is a bad person. There's plenty of know-it-alls out there that really they're they don't have any ill intent towards the board or the association in any manner. I think we should acknowledge that, right? Stacy, there's plenty of know-it-alls that um not problematic, it's just a lot easier to concentrate on the ones that are. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 48:34

I I think I think everyone's really considered a know-it most, not know-it-all. I mean, you know, there are plenty of people that feel, you know, especially like people that are retired and are on the board and have been in accounting for 25 years or been in property management in 25 years, but they do rent. Like everybody does something that gives them, you know, some clout and to say that, oh, I know a lot about this. I mean, listen, when I retire, I'm sure people are gonna ask me a lot of questions. And I kind of am a know-it-all in this in this capacity, but I'm not gonna ever act like that. So I feel that the people that are acting like that really don't quite know it all, but they're not necessarily trying to attack the community. And I think there's a a mutual respect that needs to be shown on all accounts until you start seeing that this person is clearly a troublemaker. I mean, you should still be civil, but you should definitely listen to your lawyer and keep your conversations and involvement to a minimum because these people are clearly either secretly recording you or going to misconstrue how you are responding to them. So I, you know, I would, I would I would take the position that everyone knows most, not all, and and treat them like they do know what they're talking about, but you still want to confirm it with your attorney who actually knows the law.

SPEAKER_05 49:57

By far the worst know it all are the volunteers, are the volunteers. They second guess at the last minute and overcomplicate the work of management. They don't read management emails and wait for board meetings to contribute their thoughts. Don't some bylaws supersede state law when those state laws refer to the bylaw, if different, Stacy No, I I still think if they're silent on something and the law requires something, you can't just not do it because your bylaws say you don't have to do it, or apps silent, should always refer to the law above to see if there's anything conflicting with your documents. My favorite catchphrase is duly noted. Um Tom, you're laughing. What are they referring to? Who would be saying that? The board says that.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

I guess it's like that would be coming from the board, but I wouldn't say that.

SPEAKER_05 50:56

Duly noted, Joe. Yeah, so negative. Okay. Taylor, can you say it nicely? Because you're such a nice person.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Um I I honestly I don't know if I could say that one nicely.

SPEAKER_05 51:08

You're too nice to even consider it. All right. Um, South Carolina transplants are from New Jersey. They're just trying to help as annoying as they are sometimes. Yep. What if a know it all is a board member? We have been talking about board members. We have a board president that says that all the time. My favorite phrase to respond is okay. Oh, is okay short enough for you from a legal aspect? Well, maybe not, right, Stacey?

SPEAKER_03 51:37

I mean, I don't even know what we're responding to now, but no, you should you should just yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:44

I know, I feel like okay could be like a positive acknowledgement. Speak only if it improves upon the silence, Taylor. That's from you probably knew that's from Gandhi.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_05 52:00

Are you gonna use it later today?

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Um, I I don't know if I'll use it.

SPEAKER_05 52:06

I might think it to myself, but all right, let's give you another chance, Taylor. Let's see if we can do this one a little bit smoother. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

All right, so last reminder if you need CEUs, please use the question feature and report in that you need your CEUs.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

And then I like to leave it on there for another 10 seconds. Can you fill up the time with something?

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Uh, can I fill up the time? Um is now completely for um all right.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Yep, you need to do this. Okay, appreciate it. Thank you. Um, we have a know-it-all that tries to use our facts to sway others, but if as board president they say that's interesting, please give us the details and tell us how that would work. The more they talk, the more neighbors they lose. Yeah, that's what I was kind of saying earlier. Okay, control anxiety. Experts are anxious about losing control over their community, property values, rules, amenities, fees, these are things that know-it-alls get upset about. Uncertainty about these things that create stress, try to control it by mastering it. This is all reasons that people become know-it-alls. Provide transparency. Okay, so your action, this is why people become know-it-all. So let me go to you, Tom. Do you agree that these could be some issues? I've been are know-it-alls created, Tom, or are they born that way?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

No, I think they've been that way a long time.

SPEAKER_05 53:46

Christy, what do you think? Are no-it-alls created or are they born that way in the HOA world?

SPEAKER_01 53:52

I think it's a dominating type of personality trait. And, you know, I think sometimes, you know, people that have that kind of a personality just need to remind themselves to, you know, tone it down a little bit because, you know, they again, they could be a good know-it-all, and you know, with a lot to to offer, but you got to let other people speak and you got to be open-minded to still learning things yourself.

SPEAKER_05 54:16

You know, Taylor, I kind of agree with this. I think a lot of people become know-it-alls if they're working, if they live within a very dysfunctional community, they start to get anxious, they see it, they have uncertainty, and all of a sudden I think they develop into a no-I don't know if I agree they're born that way, but Taylor, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Um, well, I think people who tend to be that way have a lot of drive in themselves. So I do think it's personality-based, but I do agree that there could be a triggering event that motivates them to really speak out.

SPEAKER_05 54:49

I mean, I'm gonna fly through some of these, why the uncertainty about things. We just went over that. You could provide transparency, you could provide timelines, and you can offer clear expectations to help these people out a little bit. The more predictable things feel, the less they feel the need to dominate conversations, the more predictable things feel. People don't like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant. I like my quotes, maybe this will be a new thing. Identity protection, their identity being around the smart one in the room that'll resist all the information. This is more negative stuff about know-it-alls. We've already covered it a lot. Actions avoid public correction whenever possible. Taylor, what do you think? You think this is a good advice in regard to know-it-alls? Don't contradict them in public.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

I would say most times, yes. I mean, you want to de-escalate a meeting scenario. Um, I think if they're saying things that are like really blant, just an example, like we have no money in our reserve account, and the association has you know significant funds. I probably would correct that for the record, but I don't think you should challenge them really.

SPEAKER_05 56:03

Okay, so retirees came up in my research. I want to kind of acknowledge them. I think sometimes they get accused of being no-dolls. Their professional authority, I want you to understand what they're going through. Their professional authority no longer formally applies, they get compensated by that by asserting themselves in HOA governance. You should give them a structured way to communicate. Look, retirees are a big part of our industry. There are a lot of people that have time to be involved in HOAs. Tom, I'm glad you're agreeing with me because I felt like you were disagreeing me with me today on everything. So are you committees, research tasks, advisory roles? When people feel useful, they often stop trying to dominate meetings. Okay, I want to go to closing thoughts, give you guys plenty of time, and I am going to start with Tom. Tom, what do you think about know-it-alls? What didn't we cover? I hope we gave people some options.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Well, I think we covered quite a bit. Going back to just my opening statement with the defining know-it-alls, you know, there are individuals that do know quite a bit, and they can offer a lot to the community in a positive way. They bring that information and trying to get them involved is is key. Get them on a committee. And once they're involved and they see how things are operating, I think you're less likely to see them taking on a negative role at the community meetings.

SPEAKER_05 57:25

No it all has become worse when they move into an HOA. I had to get to that one. I thought it was a good one. Uh, Christine, closing thoughts. Any general advice, something we didn't touch upon?

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Yeah, I just want to say to uh as a reminder to everybody that this industry changes constantly. So what you know today, and maybe all out the window tomorrow. So, you know, you always got to keep that in mind when you think you're a know-it-all or you're listening to a know-it-all, that that's why you have to fact check.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Christina, it's so hard for me to know anything nowadays. Now I feel upset. What I know today is not gonna be any good tomorrow. That's not very not in this industry. All right. Uh, Stacy, I'm gonna let Taylor go last because I interrupted Taylor one time a couple years ago. It was so rudely done that I just have to make up every time I see her. But go ahead, I'll go ahead, Stacy. We can't hear you. We still can't hear you. Oh, looks like your mic went on at the very last minute. Okay, all right. With that being said, Taylor, words of wisdom of 60 seconds, uninterrupted.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

It's okay, and I forgive you for interrupting me, right? But um, I would say when you're dealing with people like this in a meeting, really make the goal de-escalating, listen to them, follow up if you say you will follow up with them. And I'm glad you brought it up at the end. There is the action. I mean, if you can you get this person on a committee where they can be successful and productive for the association, that usually has a very good result for everybody.

SPEAKER_05 59:09

Excellent way to wrap up, Stacy. One last chance. Are you there? Uh we we lost you. All right. I want to thank everybody for being here. If you're in New York, see it at Ruth, see us at Ruth Chris tomorrow. We have a full house at Ruth Chris. Christine will be there, and Stacy will be there. So it should be a good time in New York. Thanks everybody for being here. Thank you, panel.